31
2012
Can Mike Pelfrey Bounce Back in 2012?
An article by 
I was reading this great article by CBS Sports’ Rich Countinho asking if Mike Pelfrey can bounce back for the Mets this season.
Countinho stated that in order for Pelfrey to bounce back for the Mets this year, he needs to go back to his “old” roots.
I agree with Rich because the old way of pitching for Mike Pelfrey was what gave him the confidence to go out and be the pitcher he was in 2010 when he won 15 games and posted a 3.66 ERA.
I also think that for Pelfrey to have success this season, he needs to throw pitches all around the strike zone and not just in the middle of it. Thats what got him in trouble. It may not be a bad idea for him to minimize nervous glitches like the glove-biting and the hand licking which hitters pick up like sharks sensing blood in the water.
He also needs to work on his cutter which as Rich said, is a big thing for him.
Pelfrey didn’t have a veteran presence in Johan Santana, and the fact that he had all the pressures of being the Mets ace was just too much for him to handle and his performance suffered because of it.
Hopefully with Johan coming back and the emergence of Dickey, Pelfrey can get that monkey off his back and just focus on his pitching. If he can overcome the problems he had in 2011, it could make the Mets rotation a lot more competitive than what many fans are expecting.
About the Author: Brandon Butler
Brandon is currently a MMO Minor League Staff Writer. He is also the co-host of the Mets Madness Podcast on Talkshoe Radio. Brandon lives in Hornell, NY.
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Ever notice Pelf seems to be an every other year type guy?
This isn’t the 1st time he’s coming off a not-so-hot year… and he always seems to bounce back.
I think now that expectations are lowered and nobody’s trying to tell this guy he is an Ace, that he will start to go back to his 2010 ways.
Nice job Brandon.
His problem has always been he throws and doesn’t Pitch.
There is no thought going into his pitch selection he merely goes with the pitch he likes at that moment or thinks he can locate as opposed to breaking down the batter, finding the hole in his swing and setting him up to exploit that hole!
Yes it’s a confidence thing!
When he is confident he basically throws what the catcher throws down and makes the pitch because the catcher did the thinking for him.
When he is not confident he favors one pitch over others regardless of the batter and gets into patterns that is easily hittable, mostly because he nibbles and misses and then is forced to throw a fat pitch to avoid the walk!
And he could be the worst guy holding runners on!
All of Pelfrey;s problems are in the head not the stuff or the mechanics!
Thanks Jesse. Appreciate it man!
Yes he can bounce back but I still would have looked to move him before he got his “raise”. Maybe package him with a prospect, include him with Wright early in the offseason and give this team a face lift while keeping Jose and improving the pitching. But Sandy does not want to improve the starting pitcher so that’s that. Instead he’d rather give Pelfrey a few bucks more.
I’m all for trading Wright and even dumping Pelfrey.I can’t stand looking at him anymore but what would you expect to get in return for Wright and Pelfrey in a package deal considering both coming off career worst seasons and Wright coming off a back injury? Combined I think they’re making close to 21 million so you have to find a team willing to take on that money and then give up something.
That’s why i would sweeten it up w/a prospect – maybe Valdespin? Havens? Capt. Kirk? Cohoon? Who knows..there are plenty of people on this site that are well versed in the minors but refuse to use that expertise to come up with interesting trade ideas because they all kiss Sandy’s feet and are not going to do it. Instead they keep saying “no money” while I’m saying “i know there’s no money but let’s use it smarter”
I’m sure you can find a team that thinks Wright and/or Pelf may need a change of scenery or can perform for them and with the right package I don’t know why people here think it’s so impossible. Oh, wait, I do..it’s because they prefer to believe that Sandy’s moves are the only ones that can be made and any other suggestions would diminish that. And we can’t have that.
Here’s the thing, how do we know that Sandy is NOT bouncing creative trade ideas and there are no takers?
With Wright his value is most likely at the lowest it will be in the next 2 years. Not everyone in Mets nation is down on him and some still will buy tickets to see him. I am sure there is also the aspect of PR and his ability to handle the rebuilding phase.
With Pelfrey, no one is saying they can’t still trade him or that they are even indebted to him past the April deadline.
‘With Wright his value is most likely at the lowest it will be in the next 2 years.’
Agreed.
..which has absolutely NOTHING to do with how much any team can think he can help them win. If the Mets believe he can have a bounce back year than so can some one else. But you won’t entertain that though because:
1) You are 100% pro-Sandy and absolutely REFUSE to believe that the Mets could not have gone in any other direction, let alone you have have a 100 ideas on what to do to improve the team WITH THE MONEY THEY HAVE
2) Try removing your book keeper’s visor and waist change dispenser for once
I didn’t realize they still have waist change dispensers… interesting.
LOL.
The last time I can remember someone wearing a waist change dispenser I was ordering a chocolate eclair ice cream bar from a Good Humor ice cream push bike. As for the bookkeeping visors, I saw Burgess Meredith wear one in a Twilight Zone episode.
That episode is why I don’t wear glasses.
“That’s not fair at all. There was time now. “
Give it a rest, Bayonne.
YOU give it a rest – your sandy toe-sucking stinks. Yeah, let’s give it a rest and not challenge ANY moves he’s made. Those were the only moves that were possible right? No thinking required on our part right? His moves are best right?
This guy has done a TERRIBLE job on the field and off the field with his public persona. But your baseball knowledge starts and ends with book-read, the internet just happens to put you in the same battle field as people who actually possess baseball insight and can make up their own minds.
Hey you never did prove to me how your knowledge of baseball is superior to everyone else and how you are better trained to evaluate MLB players than the rest of the board stats be damned.
And we never will see that answer, simply because it’s impossible to prove.
More useless commentary from the tiny peanut gallary.
Vote for Women!
Oh wait, they can vote now-a-days… hmmmm…
How do you kow that he is?
What if all he is proposing to teams is I’ll give you my expensive crap and you give me all your kids?
So far which trade aside from Beltran for Wheeler do you think is a CLEAR win or even a REASONABLE EQUITABLE for us?
The Pagan trade?
.240 and a washed up reliever for a .270 hitter?
Wow, washed up reliever? man you are showing your bias here. The trade was for the reliever, Torres was a throw in. I don’t think they even had intentions of him being the only CF at the time.
Ramon Ramirez would have been a huge asset to our bullpen last year. Whatever stat you want you use most likely would point to him having a good year last year.
he would have been the closer as soon as KRod left.
“Ramon Ramirez would have been a huge asset to our bullpen last year. ”
Anyone would have been a HUGE ASSET in the crappy Bullpen Sandy rebuilt LAST offseason!
His best find (Bucholz 3.12 ERA) didn’t make it past May.
His biggest name (Carrasco) had an ERA of 6.02
Blaine Boyer had an ERA of 10.8
Parnell was better than just about EVERY reliever Sandy brought in…What does that tell you about these SMART MOVES you guys think he is making?
Agreed, TRS. No one wants Wright now for anything of value. He’s going to have to come out raking and keep it up through June for anyone to offer something of value to the Mets, unless the Mets “value” a salary dump, in which case he’d already be traded.
Actually I think that he will be most valuable when the obtaining team has the chance to obtain compensation for him. Thus we may not see Wright traded until early 2013.
Why do you continue to bash Sandy A about what he is doing?
Here is the scenario of why and how he was hired. Fred, Jeff and the “braintrust” woke up one day and realized the the proverbial s#*t had hit the fan. They were in financial turmoil and possibly looking at it getting worse because of the scandal .The team had bad contracts like Ollie and Luis, they had soon to be free agents that despite being thoroughbred athletes were BIG TIME INJURY RISKS!
The ace of the staff had an injury that no one has ever completely recovered from. Finally, the face of the franchise David Wright had slumped badly since moving to the new ballpark and finally Jason Bay had struggled greatly in his first year and then suffered a serious concussion.
NOT MUCH ELSE COULD GO WRONG, RIGHT….NO…. WRONG YES.
The 2011 season starts off and the team is playing pretty well behind Jose and Carlos who just happen to be playing for new contracts. BUT THEN Ike Davis gets hurt, and then Daniel Murphy and our own part time head case of a starter Mike Pelfrey staggers through the season. It was a miracle that the team won as many games as they did and you can thank Sandy for hiring Terry Collins who did a great job.
From day one Sandy was made privy to exactly what the financial situation was. He was given the reins to evaluate the whole situation and get payroll down while ownerships reboots the system.
It was obvious that we could never resign Jose, that shortening the fences was necessary to hopefully re-invent David’s swing and to get Jason Bay rolling a bit. What still remains is the holes we have at catcher, and who is going to play second base.
It was further obvious that the bullpen had to be totally revamped and that is what Sandy did.
You need to accept that 2012 is going to be tough but that continued moves will be made by Sandy who was hired to save a sinking ship.
I would start anyone else as Opening Day Starter over Pelfrey. At this point, he should be 4th or 5th starter until he shows otherwise. I would still trade him if possible.
He sucks.. i have little faith in him.. i would’ve gotten rid of him, but as we all know, sandy is the best GM there is so if he stick with pelfrey we should not questioned his knowledge
Alex68 — You and your pals are wonderful. But my vote is still for Sandy to make the decisions. Sandy ‘does’ but you and your pals only badmouth. That’s unfortunate because you’re better than you claim you are, which isn’t difficult.
I think if you take a step back and just see him as a #4/5 starter the picture is not as bleak at all.
According to the financial state of the mets, after santana he’s the highest paid SP. therefore, he should be our #2
You know it doesn’t work that way.. HA. You think Straus is the #5 for the Nats?
If only the team had a #1, a #2 or a #3, then yeah, pelf as a #4 or more likely a #5 wouldn’t be that bad… Ok, Ok… Dickey is a #3, so they got one of them…
I won’t argue with you too much on Dickey. I don’t like using numbers to define a pitcher and I have him as a mid-rotation starter but if I was using numbers I would give him a 2.25…. LOL.
You are right that the Mets pitching stinks but that does not change who Pelfrey is. He currently is a #4/5 based on production.
And I certainly agree with you that as a #4 or #5 (cause you love putting numbers on pitchers ;P ), but when you are consistently asked to go against #2′s and #3′s, you have less margin for error and, 9 times out of 10, an ugly W-L at the end of the year.
Can he? Yes. Will he? Survey say… X X X. (insert your: AAAAAAANNT sound here).
While he might put up better numbers this year than last, I think Pelfrey is what he is right now.
He’s not an ace, he’s not a #2 type, he’ll be lucky to ever be consistent enough to even be a #3 type.
Goes w/o saying I’d love to be completely wrong on this….
Oh I would assume you are right on this. Not to many RH that wait as long as Pelfrey has to “find” themselves.
Bounce back from what? True, he had had great run in the 1st half of 2010 which led to his best overall season. But even that year he had that two month the he sucked and bounced back in September. Even last year he had stretches that almost were pretty good, although he’d mix in a bad start in some of those runs.
The dude is the poster boy for inconsistency. Either it’s month to month, game to game, inning to inning or even pitch to pitch.
Even though the final W-L numbers and HR% numbers fluctuate year to year…a lot of his peripheral numbers are pretty consistent year to year. He walks too many guys, he can’t strike out people and he falls apart when he’s in trouble.
I’m sorry, but I don’t really see how this guy will ever be a reliable starter.
I have been advocating the Mets hiring a specific cach just for Pelfrey for the past 2 seasons. I don’t car if it’s his dad. Just somebody to go out there and help him. He has alot of talent its just not able to come through due to somekinda mental wall. Maybe give him a couple beers before a game or something. Something to get him outta his head and into the batters.
I think Pelfrey can “bounce back,” but keep in mind he didn’t pitch as horridly as people make him out that have pitched, nor was he that good in 2010, either. Between the two years where his results (win total and ERA) were night and day consider the following:
His xFIP in 2010 was 4.31 and in 2011 was 4.55
His K/9 in 2010 was 4.99 and in 2011 was 4.88
His BB/9 in 2010 was 3.00 and in 2011 was 3.02
His BABIP in 2010 was .300 and in 2011 was .301
His BAA in 2010 was .268 and in 2011 was .279
His LD%/GB%/FB% in 2010 was 20.2%/47.8%/32.0% and in 2011 was 19.6%/45.6%/34.7%
The only huge difference in the way he pitched was the nine more home runs he gave up in 2011 (way to bring in the fences, guys). He pitched only slightly better in 2010.
The actual reason for the huge shift in results is the fact that the Mets were the worst defensive team in the league in 2011 compared to the 5th best in 2010. Pelfrey certainly pitched better in 2010, but only slightly. It was the team behind him that really hurt him.
Now they’re getting Ike back at first, an actual center fielder in center field and a presumably healthy Wright (which still isn’t great, but is better than an unhealthy Wright). I’m not ready to say that Tejada is already better than Reyes in the field, but the Mets aren’t downgrading there, either. Duda instead of Beltran hurts out there, but hopefully the upgrades everywhere else can swallow that up.
It won’t take much for Pelfrey to “bounce back.” He’d just have to keep doing what he’s doing.
‘It won’t take much for Pelfrey to “bounce back.” He’d just have to keep doing what he’s doing.’
Interesting….If Pelfrey’s ceiling coming into the majors was somewhere around Gee’s, none of us are having this discussion right now. I believe he’s been debated ad naseum because expectations for him were so high to begin with, therefore the reality fell way short.
Exactly. He’s been thought of as a future ace since he’s been drafted, and it’s only been since May or June when people realized he was never going to reach the “potential.” The wound is still fresh.
I try not to let my expectations judge the player. As for me however, I never saw him as ace potential to start with.
Smart guy. I apparently bought into the Pelfrey hype b/c I did believe he would be a top of the rotation starter, once he got some experience under his belt. I thought those early years were just a matter of being brought up too soon but that he could and would compensate for that after a couple of seasons. If I remember correctly his K totals or swing and/or swing and miss stats were so much better in the minors, right?
Obviously, I was wrong. But as you guys over at TRDM know, I was also wrong about the Ollie signing.
The only thing that will help Mike Pelfrey is a change of scenery. I was sorry he didnt get traded this offseason.
This site can be so great and enjoyable while at the same time being so sad and pathetic with threads like this one. It’s a shame because you have the potential to be better than all the rest, but not with so many nasty comments like you see here.
I apologize, but my previous comment was intended for the Beltran thread.
thanks for the comment Ken. I’ve tried very hard today to not get involved in all the mindless back and forth. All I’ve done today is chat with trs which went back and forth yes but I don’t think there was any maliciousness involved at all.
The mindless back and forth cheapens the site, and I’m not interested in that. Hopefully others will take a page out of the same book. I’m not interested in people who can’t have legitimate baseball chatter.
There’s chatting baseball and there’s flaming a board.
I’m interested in chatting baseball.
Hope to see you back here Ken!
My god, the biggest hypocrite in this site is you. seriously, do you read what you type?? you’re in the mets blog yet, all you do is root for other teams (Braves), you claim reyes is your fav player, yet trash him for winning a batting title and actually rooted for braun to win it, yet,. braun was caught using PED’s and not a word from you. the braves choked and you dissapear for 3 days. i mean, i don’t understand what type of mets fan are you..
oh ok, i was wondering
i completely disagree,
You’d rather read Metsblog which will have 100 of the same bland comments with anything of substance getting lost in the mix with all the other one sentence retorts that have nothing to do with baseball? Or come to a site like this, while heavy with disagreement, if full of people on BOTH sides of the aisle with vast baseball knowledge. So you have to put up with the funny “you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about” or occasional insult. Big Deal. Be a man.
Would you rather MMO be the Richard Neer of the blog world? Nice guy but boring to listen do (good DJ though during the WNEW years)
Or would you rather Amazin Avenue which is just one mind set – no alternative views whatsoever! And very unintelligent by the way, too
Bay it’s not about the disagreements, hell I come here to talk baseball and argue as much as you do. It’s about cheapening the product by name calling and grouping.
I know for one I don’t feel comfortable ever saying that I like or dislike a move because as soon as I do I am grouped with one side or the other. That is taxing and boring.
And I still have not seen anyone on this site that worships Sandy, or has not disagreed at some time with specific moves (or that doesn’t believe that different ones might have led to a few more wins lst year). Myself and SRT included.
Sure, I question some of the moves he makes. It for me is more about trust. I think Sandy is trying to do the best job he can do with the resources he has and I think that the overall direction will eventually lead the Mets back to relevance.
Of course I was burned once before in trusting a GM. Does not mean I agreed with every move, however I did realize two things that everyone on this board should.
One: Both Sandy and Omar know more about the workings of a baseball FO than any of us on here. They are both more qualified for the position and could talk baseball circles around all of us.
Two: We have no idea what moves where to be made, did not happen, what discussions were made, what players thoughts were, what other gm’s biases may be….
Basically what we do is make assumptions and provide our own opinions in terms of player moves. Otherwise to say we are sure that they could have done this or could have done that is the biggest joke on the internet.
Calling AA unintelligent just shows your level of intelligence.
Just what exactly is unintelligent about the excellent analysis done on that site?
Oh…that’s right….they use numbers in their analysis.
it’s a lot of garbage. It’s the Zoo Story over there, you waste a lot of time going in all different directions over there only to wind up back where you started. And that’s what saber is to me, I don’t need it one bit. I can talk baseball without it and it seems the people that adhere to that garbage are DUMBER. Just because you think you feel intelligent because you’re crunching numbers doesn’t mean that you are. A lot of wasted time crunching numbers just to look at results from all kinds of angles and NOTHING to do with how to win at baseball competition.
Good for you, enjoy it. Saber to me is the science of studying marginal ballplayers hoping you catch lightning in a bottle and there’s a site dedicated to it – it’s called AA.
And srt if u had half a brain you would be willing to admit to learning from people that know much more than you do
You really need a giant IM (not so humble) O stamped across all of your posts.
as do you and srt, no matter how nice and politely you put things you both feel your opinion is final as well.
You don’t realize that all stats are just another tool in the belt. At one time your grandfather most likely protested BA as a way to judge a player, LOL. Again, you are no more qualified or any more baseball intelligent than any poster on this board until you prove that you have some qualification that the rest of us do not. And don’t give us any I coach stuff. Again, I have coached over 1,000 basketball games, does not mean I don’t use stats. Can often look at a player and tell their ability? Sure? However to compare one player to another, especially comparing them to those I do not see every single day? Stats are important. And for someone to say that one group of stats are the only ones to use is a fault either way. I do not rely completely on “saber” stats because I don’t even understand all of them. I still like HR and RBI but I realize that those are not the only way to judge a player’s offensive worth. I like Wins and strikeouts but also realize that those don’t paint the complete picture for a pitcher either.
Regardless, the grouping and discrediting of points of view because of your superior eyes? laughable.
I give you credit. But you’re never going to get through.
Bayonne: once you actually prove you ‘know so much more than I do’, I might admit it.
To date: you’ve proven much, but it’s not been in the realm of baseball knowledge.
i haven’t proven anything as far as baseball knowledge? Yeah okay – but because YOU say it it’s different. If I say it i’m the big, bad wolf
you have limited, paper-read knowledge, and all your incessant posting about the Wilpons, Picard, finances is ALL about you giving your opinion on what you read. That is ALL it’s about.
I give my baseball opinions with almost a lifetime of involvement in many different levels and have encountered incredible and exciting successes and extremely gut wrenching disappointments. I consider some of your comments to me as a MAJOR insult so the rest of you stay the hell out of it, I don’t care how diplomatically she gives her OPINIONS
what am i’m saying in my posts above doesn’t put me above a few people here because it doesn’t, what’ i’m saying is when you have a background and some experience and if you’ve had success it should account for some of the perspective that some of us who are in similar situations like me provide.
So don’t insult my intelligence by asserting yourself in the same circles as me. Just because you’re more openminded about saber means NOTHING. Plenty of professionals in all media and sports have the same outlook as i do. You just bore me already.
So wait a minute, because I have coached basketball at many different levels and played basketball I can go on to an NBA board and tell them that any advanced stats are garbage and they should only rely on my eyes because I am a coach and played basketball?
Eyes and stats are BOTH tools…. get over the fact. Those stats are here to stay nothing you can do about it. GM’s all over baseball are using ALL of them to try to gain any advantage out there. Davey and Bobby were both famous for using whatever stat they could get a hold of. 50 years from now the next generation will be fighting tooth and nail against the next age of stats yet it still will not slow progress.
So just because you do not like them does not make them any less a valuable tool.
For crying out loud….if I BORE you then just skip over my posts. Why do you even bother responding?
And I’ll answer that for you: Because you just cannot help yourself.
This isn’t about boredom. It’s about a complete disdain for what the game has evolved to today. You actually believe at some point all these advance stats will be abandoned and they’ll go back to the 1950s era of just utilizing ‘the eyes’.
And no one really cares if that’s your opinion. Many would find it enjoyable to debate you on that subject. The reason you get the type of responses you do is b/c you just cannot keep the personal insults out of it. You just are that angry. You just cannot help yourself.
Again, Bay for those of us that are newish to your obnoxious ways. Can you rehash what experiences you have had in baseball that gives you the insight to judge MLB players without the use of stats and thus makes your eyes and thoughts more intelligent than 1,000′s of other Mets bloggers.
And for the record – as anyone whose has read any of my comments across several Mets blog – I know little about Sabermetrics and it’s formulas. I do however, have an open mind and see the relevance in what they’ve brought to the table. I’ve enjoyed and will continue to enjoy posts that try and educate others in this area.
If you don’t understand by now that the game has evolved – all teams are utilizing every advantage out there – all teams use a combination of scouting, analysis, numbers, stats, etc…..then there is no hope you will ever enjoy the game as it is today.
AH… I have it.
Bay was actually a scout for Sandy back in the day, this is where the baseball knowledge comes in. However, when the shift towards more modern stats came in unfortunately he was fired due to his inability to use them (You know the ones like BA, OBP and SLG…. the real tough ones). Since then he has become bitter and anxious to prove to the Mets community that stats indeed are worthless and only his eyes are of value. Yet because of the fame and painful memories he refuses to prove who he is and why those eyes are actually the most valuable asset in baseball.
You see the same disdain for that garbage from many pros all the time – athletes and media types alike so your defense of it is just one of many that permeate the 12-65 ticket-buying age bracket
You are right, I know Frenchy hated OBP as a stat…
As for saying that a player dislikes stats? Which ones? All saber stats? Some saber stats? You think they don’t want their agent using them when it comes time for a new contract. I bet they are the biggest supporters of any of those fangled things if they get them more money.
i should have said coaches, managers, etc. not players – sorry for the semantic miscue.
Sure if i was a player i’d use that useless crap to gain more money. At least it’s good for something, especially if the arbitrator only has a passing knowledge of the game, so yes it’s good there.
So you are telling me that most managers are not looking at advanced stats today in baseball?
Hell, I live near a single A team and spoke to their manager and we were laughing about how much it is being used on the single A level in scouting reports etc…. Talked about how it was a mandate from above that either figure them out or get out. Again Bay the game is changing.
I teach at a high school and the coach has a guy that charts hitter tendencies, line drive percentages….
sounds pretty stupid to me, at high school i always knew the hitters and all that, but charting line drives at the HS level? Stupid, but hey go for it. Not all coaches are good either i should add, i know a lot who aren’t smart at all so this may be the case but let it ride and let’s see how long this fad lasts.
I wonder what the team’s record was, and since this is HS they are not gonna be successful without a dominant pitcher anyway.
I didn’t say all managers i said you those ideals get rebuffed from managers, coaches, all media types. Of course there are some proponents naturally. But i guess you didn’t listen to Tony LaRussa, Ron Washington, Ozzie Guillen, etc.
anyway i’d love to go back n forth s’more but i gots to go.
Actually they had dominant pitching, terrible hitting and terrible fielding. The coach started using those stats at the suggestion of a local college coach. Using that and pitch location stats he was able to determine how to help his slow of foot fielders get in proper position based on the opposing hitter’s tendencies and the current pitchers tendencies. However, how do you know if it works or does not work? You can’t base that on wins and losses. They did really well in 2010 and not so much last year.
In basketball I use all kinds of stats as part of the package…. do I rely on them solely? Of course not. However, do I think that gives me an edge over other coaches? In my mind it does and I can’t argue with my success.
So you think that Tony and Ozzie use no advanced stats? How about Dave Duncan?
Oh don’t bring Frenchy into this AGAIN. That tells me you’re a saber geek and not just someone with a passing interest.
You get the best players you need to win REGARDLESS OF THEIR APPROACH! If it’s a fit for your team than you do it. And GOOD FOR HIM! The Mets, of all teams and you should realize this if you weren’t so drunk with saber, could have used Frenchy last year to drive in all those runs that were just standing on the bases raising their OBP.
Mets could have used 20 HRs, 85 RBIs, .285 AVG oh..and one of the best RFers in the game with arguably the best arm. When you have an arm like that you tend to save runs because runners will hold up on you..but will run on a RFer with a lousy arm who got a contract signed because of his stupid OBP.
Actually it was a joke Bay. I liked the Frenchy move and I do not think OBP is that big of a deal for a #7 hitter. That being said, how dare you use BA. That is a saber stat if I have ever seen one. Hits is the purest form and should be used instead of BA.
TRS, here’s what some managers have said about sabermetrics:
Clint Hurdle:“You hear about OPS and OBP,’’ Hurdle said. “I’m a big fan of G.U.T.S. It’s the best lineup I’ve ever written down, so we’ll see how far that takes us.”
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/extrabaggs/2008/07/14/booing-mr-met-clint-hurdle-razzes-sabermetricians-and-other-assorted-all-star-notes/
Tony LaRussa: “It’s one of the most dangerous concepts of the last seven or eight years, because it forces some executives, coaches and players to think it’s all about getting on base by drawing walks. The fact is that the guys with best on-base percentage are really dangerous hitters whenever they get a pitch in the strike zone.
“You watch your productive hitters and when they get a chance to drive in runs, they look for the first good strike. … That’s the kind of danger that creates counts. It’s not sitting up there taking strike one, strike two so you can work the count.”
http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2011/10/tony_larussa_isnt_all_thumbs_u.html
Mike Scioscia “They’ve had us losing 90 games for the last [seven] years, and we managed to win 90 [five times],” Scioscia said. “I think it’s a young science … I don’t know.”
“I couldn’t tell you if Derek Jeter is a plus player because I don’t know where their spray charts tell him to play,” Scioscia said. “We understand it when Aybar doesn’t get to a slow roller up the middle because he was shaded so far toward third base. No shortstop would get to that ball, but if you’re grading it, it’s a minus.”
I don’t know if there’s anything I’ve looked at on the defensive end that paints a very accurate picture of a guy’s ability,” Scioscia said. “There’s nothing I’ve looked at that has knocked me out.”
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/24/sports/la-sp-baseball-stats-20110225
Dusty Baker: “I’m big on driving in runs and scoring runs,” Baker said. “Guys in the middle should score about close to equal to what they drive in. On-base percentage, that’s fine and dandy. But a lot of times guys get so much into on-base percentage that they cease to swing. It’s becoming a little bit out of control.
“What you do is run the pitcher’s count up, that helps,” Baker said. “You put him in the stretch, that helps. But your job in the middle is to either score them or drive them in. The name of the game is scoring runs. Sometimes, you get so caught up in on-base percentage that you’re clogging up the bases.”
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080223&content_id=2385630&vkey=spt2008news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin
“Sabermetrics has picked us to finish like fourth or fifth three years in a row. So you figure their numbers out,” Twins manager Ron Gardenhire said. “Numbers are good bases to go off things and try to figure things out, but for every number you throw out there that’s not supposed to work, the human element’s always coming. Bad pitch, guy gets a hit. But he’s not supposed to, still rips a pitch in the gap. Those are all great things and, over the course of time probably prove out pretty good. But I like the human element and I like the heart way better than I like their numbers. And that’s what I’ll always stay with.”
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/3040/twins-thrive-without-sabermetrics
Also the way you have treated SRT one of the most passionate, respectful and rational Mets fans I have ever read on any Mets blog is down right obnoxious and pathetic. She does not need me to defend her but out of respect for her I will. Truly the most classy person on this site.
I don’t know srt, but I know of her because she frequents the same sites I do. I agree that she is very rational, respectful and brings a lot to the table. If you can’t get along with her, than you can’t get along with anyone.
To you and both trs: ‘I salute you’. (LOL)
Bayonne, some people come to this site one day, all of the sudden they think they know some of us in here who have put up with donal, jesseP, aggee and a few others in here since the site pretty much have been here, they do not know the history behind most of this arguments, and it’s a shame too, because if they knew they’d see how passionate we are about our team, unlike some others who actually root for the atlanta braves to make the playoffs, most of the discussions and arguments were done in the chat, where we had a bunch of good knowledgable people discuss BASEBALL like adults, then jesseP and co starting coming in and most of those good people left the site, now we’re stuck with all of them battling them and the urge not to leave this site like most of them did, joe D has a great thing going here, and we should all be gratefull, but even i am getting tired of what’s going on around here, it’s kinda hard to talk baseball when someone who’s been watching baseball for like 10 years comes in with a bunch of numbers to start an arguement. everything in baseball is not only numbers, it’s more than that, if you play the game i am sure people would understand it better, but since you can text a boxscore nowadays who even needs to watch the games.
Thing is Alex you know SRT and I better than that. You know NJ, Any and NJSTX better than that. You know Salty and I could go on and on….
Stop lumping us with the people that offended you or wronged you before just because we have a different opinion than you. It does not mean that we support those people or are part of some conspiracy theory.
Hell you know I was one of Omar’s biggest supporters, now if I say Sandy did a good move it is because I did not like Omar? If I say that Beltran was not as good as KGJR and is not currently a HOF it’s because I favor Sandy. If I say that I am fine with trading Beltran for a prospect because I did not feel we could win last year and I am glad they at least got a top prospect for him… it’s because I think Sandy is god.
However, when I propose a trade of David Wright to Detroit it gets glossed over yet when I say he’s not the biggest choker of all time I am “on his nuts”.
I defended Beltran up and down after 2006, defended Reyes when he was considered soft and lazy. I defended Delgado when he was called a clubhouse cancer and agreed that Cliff Floyd should have been brought back. I defended and cursed Aaron Heilman, and thought that Ryan Church was the answer in RF….
I am not Jessup or Donal, in fact I have been around a Mets blog for as long as some of them have been watching baseball much less been discussing the Mets.
In other words stop grouping. It’s pointless.
‘If you play the game i am sure people would understand it better’
The single most unsubstantiated comment I keep seeing over and over.
So to millions and millions of baseball fans out there – who have never played the game – they couldn’t possibly understand it fully just b/c they’ve never played? What counts as ‘playing time’ anyway? Sandlot? Little League? Semi pro? What level would have had to have played to be included in the ‘Core’?
I think too many of you saw Moneyball, saw the character Depo was playing and said ‘Ah HA. THIS is what’s wrong with the Mets’….
This logic just defies well…logic.
The best coaches sometimes never even play the game, or didn’t play the game well… or so i red on another thread. Just sayin.
I didn’t say I would rather read Metsblog and as a matter of fact I haven’t for nearly a year. What I was trying to say, and maybe I did a bad job of doing it, is that this site has the potential t be so much better than what it is. I’ve enjoyed this site ever since my son turned me onto it, but what takes away from it is when a good debate deteriorates into a Jerry Springer episode. I didn’t mean to offend anyone personally, I’m only saying that it’s the offensive comments that keep this site from realizing an opportunity to be something special. As for Amazin Avenue they are very relevant and more on the cutting edge of the game. It may not be for everyone, but that doesn’t make them unintelligent. The game evolved over the years so why shouldn’t fans evolve with it? Nobody is forcing you to go along with the change, so what do you have to gain by mocking it? These are two very different sites and together they give me a complete picture of the day to day Mets news and ongoing debates. There’s room for both on the web IMO.
Ken: A collection of different ideas often brings about the best ideas. There are those here and in every facet of life who want to know only what they already know. Anything and everything else is mute to them. You can tell a lot about people based on how they respond to differing opinions.
When some revert to claiming you worship a man who works in baseball, or need to re-kindle their best childhood taunts in order to avoid discussing a topic I’m learning its best to just not speak to them.
You can get some great baseball chatter here, so hopefully you’re around for the long haul and sift through the garbage to find quality debates and opposing points of view.
“Moot” unless you really don’t want them to talk at all.
haha I mean like falls on deaf ears type. Like they turn the sound off on what you say, then react to it anyway
And back before I could not access my own site at work I thought mine was the happy medium. We were right up there competing with both for a couple of years. Just goes to show you how difficult it is to keep fresh content. Luckily we still have a group of loyal readers and once basketball season is over for me I know I am going to try to get it back to what it used to be.
Ken,
welcome to the site, but again, if you do not know the history of this site don’t jump the gun as to defend anyone you don’t know yet.. jesseP is probably one of the worst people here.. jus saying
Is that counting or not counting your super hero group?
jesshlt is the worse example to be saying those things, you’re right. Even i wouldn’t do it.
You can’t possibly be serious.
Pelfrey definitely is not worth the kind of money the mets are paying him. I think for that much money we could have gotten a better pitcher.
I think part of Mikes problem last years was he did not have his support medical team since he pasted away. Maybe he needs to try the same doctor that Taylor Buchholz has been using or some other top sports physc team. That is the biggest problem he faces. He losses his confedence very easy. He also needs a catcher like Pudg or get his head back in at the first sign of being out of it.
Pelfrey is lost without his long-term sports psych coach, who is now dead. He has to do it on his own now and has neither the brains, the competitive instinct, nor the confidence to be successful in the majors. He should be sent packing and his top fan Warthen should be packed up with him. Warthen is not competent to give Pefrey any meaningful direction. Both of them have to go. How long do we have to witness Pelfrey making the same mistakes over and over? He is totally incompetent at holding runners on base and after walking a batter and paying the runner no mind at all at first, he goes into his long and slow delivery at the plate and discovers the runner is now on second. What a surprise! At that point he panics, loses all semblance of control and the Mets lose. How may times do we have to witness that? It is predictable and very stale. It is time for that to end and the only way is for Pelfrey to be somewhere else by Opening Day. If all you want is innings without W’s, there are cheaper ways to get them. I’ll take Miguel Batista instead even with the age difference.
I find it amazing that a big tough internet man can come on to a blog and call a MLB baseball player who has made multiple millions and stands 6-7 250 pounds stupid. I have zero doubt that out from behind this screen you would panic in fear to say those words in person.