Alderson Knew What He Was Getting Into

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• nathan October 18, 2011 at 6:18 pm

  I normaly do not disagree with threads on this forum as much as I disagree with this one. I don’t believe that the Mets are that far from competing. There are alot if’s on this team right now that can not be denied. Given the lineup that we had last year if the contributors stayed healthy, Davis, Wright Then the teams biggest holes were an ace and a bullpen. Johan may come back strong and Tampa has proven that a bullpen can be rebuilt one year to the next without breaking the bank. I’m not an idiot I do know that those are alot of ifs and Johan being the biggest one of them all but I do not see the need to impolde the team and start over. I believe that if they do that it will take a decade to gain back enough fan support to have a payroll capable of competing.
  • METS62FAN October 19, 2011 at 10:44 am

    NATHAN, YOU’RE CLOSER TO RIGHT THAN WRONG; BUT UNFORTUNATELY THIS THREAD NEGLECTS TO CONSIDER HOW WELL THIS TEAM COMPETED DESPITE MISSING AN ACE PITCHER IN THE RIOTATION OR A BONAFIDE #3(WTRIGHT) & #4(DAVIS) HITTER IN THEIR LINEUP FOR 2 MOS OF THE SEASON. WHILE FEW CONSIDER REYES’ DEPARTURE SUBTRACTS SS,LEADOFF & IMPACTFUL RUN SCORER AS WELL AS A RETURN TO MUSICAL GLOVES @ 2B, WHEREAS RETAINING HIM PATCHES EVERY ONE OF THOSE WEAKNESSES ESPECIALLY AS THERE ISN’T A “SUREFIRED” TOP NOTCH #1 “ACE” AVAILABLE IN THIS MARKET OF PROSPECTIVE F/A SP:
    Starting Pitchers
    Mark Buehrle CWS
    Bruce Chen KC
    Aaron Cook COL *
    Kyle Davies TOR
    Ryan Dempster CHC *
    Justin Duchscherer OAK
    Zach Duke ARI *
    Jeff Francis KC
    Freddy Garcia NYY
    Jon Garland LAD
    Aaron Harang SD
    Rich Harden OAK
    Livan Hernandez WAS
    Edwin Jackson STL
    Kenshin Kawakami ATL
    Scott Kazmir LAA
    Hiroki Kuroda LAD
    Rodrigo Lopez CHC
    Paul Maholm PIT
    John Maine COL
    Jason Marquis WAS
    Kevin Millwood NYY
    Scott Olsen PIT *
    Roy Oswalt PHI *
    Brad Penny DET
    Oliver Perez NYM
    Joel Pineiro LAA
    CC Sabathia NYY (may opt out)
    Carlos Silva NYY
    Javier Vazquez FLA
    Adam Wainwright STL *
    Tim Wakefield BOS
    Chien-Ming Wang WAS
    Brandon Webb ARI
    C.J. Wilson TEX
    NB, IMO, THE BEST OF, BUERHLE, HAS NEARLY 2500 IP ALREADY ON HIS 32 YR OLD SHOULDER, ELBOW, WRIST HAVE PEDRO & JOHAN TAUGHT US NOTHING?
    AT LEAST NOT TO THE EXTENT THAT IT WOULD SALVE THE PAIN OF A LOST REYES, ONE IN A LIFETIME CALIBER PLAYER THE LIKES OF WHICH IS NONEXISTANT ANYWHERE ELSE AMOUNG THE OTHER 749 MLB PLAYERS ACTIVE AT ANY POINT IN TIME DURING A SEASON. COMPLAINING ABOUT HIS D/L TIME IS TANTAMOUNT TO SCOFFING @ HOWARDS’ HRs DUE TO HIS STRIKEOUTS. EVERY SINGLE SPEED-MERCHANT OF NOTE IN MLB HISTORY, HENDERSON,WILLS,COLEMAN,FURCAL, ROLLINS, RAINES ALL HAD MORE THAN AVG D/L STINTS, JUST AS BIG POWER HITTERS TEND TO HAVE MORE STRIKEOUTS. IF THIS POSTSEASON PROVES ANYTHING, IT SHOULD BE THE NYY MODEL ISN’T THE ONLY CONSIDERATION FOR SUCCESS. CJ IS AS LIKELY AN ‘ACE’ AS LIETER,HAMPTON,SWAN WERE. PSEUDO ACES AT BEST. SEAVER,GOODEN, THE ’05 PEDRO? I SEE NONE OF THAT MEASURE AVAILABLE ON THAT LIST. IF THIS YEAR’S PHILLIES HASN’T DISPROVEN THE ‘EASE’ OF ‘BUYING’, ‘CONSTRUCTING’ “CAN’T MISS” ROSTERS. THEN WHERE ARE THEY? SURELY THE RULES OF LOGIC ARE STILL PERTINENT, HOLD ON TO YOUR BEST DURING THEIR PRIMES WHENEVER POSSIBLE, & IF REYES ISN’T ONE OF OUR BEST EVER, THAN WHO IS? I’VE BEEN AROUND SINCE THE VERY BEGINNING. THERE’S A LOT OF CONFUSION OUT THERE & ONE OF THE MOST MISTAKEN CONCEPTS IS ONE, IVE ENOCOUNTERED A LOT HERE FROM THE ANTI-REYES CONTIGENTT; THE OLD, “WHAT HAVE WE WON WITH HIM? BS CLAIM, AS IF ANY LEADOFF HITTER IN HISTORY ACTUALLY CREATED THAT ‘CARRY EVERYONE’ ABILITY. THAT’S THE JOB MOST LIKELY FULFILLED BY A #4 HITTER OR #1 SP; NOT A LEADOFF HITTER, WHOSE RUN CREATIVITY IS UNEQUALLED IN TODAY’S GAME DESPITE THE REPEATED FAILURES OF THOSE BEHIND HIM & MANAGING HIM TOO DESPERATELY TO REST HIM PROPERLY. 20-50G IN SUCCESSION IS TYPICAL SANS REST FOR A STATION TO STATION, UNIFORM MINIMALLY STAINED BALLPLAYER; HOWEVER THOSE LIVING ON THE EDGE OF THE EFFORT ENVELOPE CERTAINLY REQUIREMORE THAN AN OCCASIONAL BLOW; HOWEVER, EACH MNGR FEARED REDUCING HIS TALENT BY SUCH A HUGE % EVEN FOR 1G, LET ALONE 3 REMAINING PRIME PRODUCTION SEASONS!
    WHILE THERE ARE SOME WHO CHOOSE TO DISMISS JOSE’S SEASON AS A CONTRACT THING; THAT’S, TO ME, IS LESS LOGICAL THAN CREDITING THE COSMIC INTERSECTION OF HUDGENS’ INFLUENCE, REYES’ HEALTH & THE VERY FIRST YR OF HIS PRIME, WITH 4 MORE TO AWAIT(PRIME= AGES 28-32)

    I FOR ONE DON’T WALK AWAY FROM THAT EASILY!
    THIS WASN’T A POST-PEAK AGE PERFORMANCE BLIP, THIS WAS AN INNAUGRAL PRIME PRODUCTION STATEMENT. AS ONE WHO IS SUBJECTED TO OPPONENT BROADCAST FEEDS TOO OFTEN(REDS,GNATS,BRAVES,ORIOLES) I CAN TRULY ATTEST THAT PITCHING TO REYES IS CONSISTANTLY AMOUNG THE OPONENT’S KETS FOR THEIR SUCCESS. AND THAT SHOULD BE OUR TRUEST ASSESSMENT OF OUR PLAYERS THROUGH OUR OPPONENT’S CONSIDERATION, NOT OURS TINTED BY NYPRESS VICTRIOL
    • eileen October 19, 2011 at 11:32 pm

      Metsfan62-

      if you don’t want to use both caps and lowercase letters, PLEASE use lowercase letters for the ease of those who read your posts.

      and maybe an occasional paragraph break. just sayin’!
      • Metsie October 20, 2011 at 12:59 am

        Eileeen you do realize that Metfan has a damn good reasons for his posts being as they are and if I told you why you would probably feel very foolish right now!

        Caps, Small letters It can all be read and it’s well WORTH reading what he says so any effort is rewarded!
      • METS62FAN October 20, 2011 at 7:56 am

        eILEEN, AS U MUST BE VERY NEW TO THIS SITE; i’LL LET U IN ON WHAT mETSIE REFERS TO. i SUFFERED A POST SURGICAL STROKE ABOUT 20 YRS AGO & AS SUCH MY LEFT HAND IS FAR LESS COOPERATIVE THAN I’D PREFER, AS I WAS TAUGHT BY RELIGOUS ORDER, ANALLY RETENTIVES DURING MY FORMIDABLE YRS THE CONCEPT OF ZERO CAPITALIZATION VS ALL CAPITALIZATION IS ONE OF UNTHINKABLE,UNBEARABLE VS. PERSONALLY ACCEPTABLE AS I’VE BEEN CONTYRIBUTING HERE FOR SOMETIME I’VE ENCOUNTERED MORE THAN A FEW INTOLERABLES WHO APPARENTLY HAVE DECIDED MY CONTENT IS MORE VALUABLE THAN MY CONTEXT, AS MY DEFENDERS OUTNUMBER MY COMPLAINERS; BUT AT LEAST IT GIVES ME A METHODOLOGY OF DETERMINING THE NEWBIES, EILEEN, WELCOME AS A FELLOW CONTRIBUTOR; HOWEVER, IN THE FUTURE, I HOPE U ACTRUUALLY HAVE MORE ‘TEAM’(TOPIC) CONTRIBUTIONS & CRITICISMS SINCE, LIKE MOST BLOG SITES WE’VE TTOO MANY MINDLESS COMPLAINERS FOR COMPLAING SAKE BTW, AS WE’VE MULTIPLE ORIGINAL(’62) FANS HERE MY CHOSEN MONIKER SPECIFICALLY IS METS62FAN & YOUR REFERING TO A METSFAN62 MAY BELONG TO ANOTHER OF OUR COMRADES/CONTIBUTORS/COMMENTORS THE SPECIFIC ORDER U’LL FIND IS QUITE IMPOERTANT FOR ESTABLISHING WHOSE COMMENTS U ARE TARGETING.
        I APOLOGIZE FOR NEEDING TO REQUEST YOUR INDULGENCE IN DEALING WITH MY CHOSEN TYPE STYLE; BUT BELIEVE ME OR NOT I BEGAN THIS POSTING INTENDING ON ACQUIESCING TO YOUR REQUEST AS THE BEGINNING MIX OF UPPER/LOWER SHOULD INDICATE, AS A 1 HANDED TYPEST, MY EYES ARE RELEGATED UPON KEY CHOICE OVER SCREEN RESULT, SORRY; BUT AGAIN I BEG YOUR INDULGENCE OF MY LAZINESS AT THIS INSTANCE AS TO RETYPE ALL THAT PRECEEDS THIS SENTENCE, JUST TO ACCOMODATE A CAse CHOICE, IS, TO ME, LUDICROUS. FINALLY, I HOPE I HAVEN’T DISSUADED YOUR FUTURE CONTRIBUTION AS SOUND SPECULATION BASED UPON ONFIELD STANDINGS IMPROVEMENT IS ALWAYS WELCOME, & FAR BE IT FOR ME TO DISSUADE ANYONE DUE TO MY PARTICULAR DESIRES., SINCERELY, ’62(THE EASY NICKNAME) I’M ADDRESSED BY HERE IN MOST REBUTTALS, AGAIN, EILEEN, WELCOME TO MMO, I ANTICIPATE FENCING IDEAS AGAINST U IN THE FUTURE.
  • t agee October 19, 2011 at 6:22 pm

    Has anyone seen or heard from the Wilpon’s? They sure are doing a good job of hiding behind Alderson aren’t they. We haven’t heard from Fred since he was bashing his players and team and we haven’t seen hide nor hair of J. Wilpon since spring training.

    No end of the season wrap up, no start of the hot stove wind up, no interviews on their network. No pictures of J.Wilpon scouting the AFL or posing with the fungo bat at the baseball academy in Boca Chica. Man they were always so visible. Big end of the season press conferences, photo ops, interviews. Where have they gone?

    Has MLB already stepped in and just not notified anyone?
    • Bayonne Mets Fan October 19, 2011 at 6:24 pm

      Maybe they’re hiding out with Paul DePodesta who has yet to do one mainstream media interview since joining the Mets. At least Ricciaridi went on with Francesa when he was hired but he’s been hard to find as well.
      • any October 19, 2011 at 8:58 pm

        depodesta is what, assinstant GM of some kind, or director of player development? Why should that guy be doing interviews? Not his job. I don’t recall wishing for more Tony B interviews when he was around! Of that dude that was Assistant GM to Omar (that is still around)
    • any October 19, 2011 at 9:00 pm

      well, haven’t been most people harping for years that the Wiplons should hre a respected baseball guy to run the organization, then just fade into the woodwork? Looks like we finally got our wish on that!

      many (most?) owners are like that in baseball.
      • METS62FAN October 20, 2011 at 8:14 am

        ANY, BTW, NOT GIVING TC CONTROL OVER HIS COACHING CHOICES WOULD INDICATE THE WILPONS AREN’T TOO DEEP IN THOSE SHADOWS. CERTAINLY, I BELIEVE RIGGLEMAN, TC’s LONGTERM FRIEND, WHO HE DEFENDED IN THE DC EPISODE & NOT GEREN WOULD HAVE BEEN OUR BENCHCOACH AS AT LEAST RIGGLEMAN HAS RECENT WORKING KNOWLEDGE OF CURRENT COMPETITORS IN THE NL WHILE GEREN’S ONLY, IMO, ATTRIBUTE WAS, IF WALLY BOLTED, AS A VIABLE TC ALTERNATIVE, NOW THAT WALLY IS STAYING, THE “BENCHER” BECOMES 2nd IN LINE BY ALL ACCOUNTS GEREN HAS COMMUNICATION ISSUES MORE DAMAGING THAN TC’s REPORTEDLY WERE, CERTAINLY TC DOESN’T NEED TO EXPEND ENERGY TOWARDS HELPING GEREN IMPROVE. THAT’S A ROLE REVERSAL WE DIDN’T NEED AS NO MNGR CONTROL OVER COACHING CHOICES HAS BEEN A NYM TRADITION DATING BACK TO LATE 90s WHEN PHILLIPS DISMISSED ALL OF BOBBYV”S SELECTIONS, REPLACING WITH HIS CHOICES ATTEMPTING TO SECURE BOBBY’S INDIGNANT RESIGNATION, IT’S NOT TOTALLY AN ALDERSON ISSUE.HELL, HOWE HAD NO SELECTIONS, WILLIE WAS GRANTED 1 OUT OF ALL(EVENTUALLY DISMISSED BY FRONTOFFICE & REPLACED WITH THEIR SELECTION OF HOJO).
        ANY, DESPITE NOT BEING VISIBLE THE PUPPETEER’S STRINGS ARE APARENTLY STILL ATTACHED DESPITE THE IMPROVED STEALTH.
        • alex68 October 20, 2011 at 8:17 am

          Metsfan62, totally agree, which is why this organization most of the time is at dissaray.
• oldtimer October 18, 2011 at 7:30 pm

  Hey, there’s no money. The system has lttle if anything to help this year and most important they have a terrible OF and bullpen. Rebuilding has started and will continue. Maybe if 2 or 3 of the kid pitchers develop they can compete in 2014 when the Bay and Santana contracts are up. Right now they are a mess.
• Jerry M October 18, 2011 at 7:38 pm

  I have said all along that this is the Mets 2012 starting lineup. Tejada,Murphy,Duda,Turner,Thole,Davis. A new CF player and Bay if can be traded replaced with a new LF. .
• OmarFan October 18, 2011 at 8:14 pm

  “At one time, Reyes and Wright represented the Mets’ core, but times have changed. The team has lost key complementary pieces while both players have declined and have had health issues”

  Jose Reyes just won the batting title, but he has declined, huh?

  Go take a nap, John.

  Little newsflash for ya, buddy. When Jose Reyes doesn’t play, this team going into the TOILET. What’s the reason? Nobody to replace Jose at the top of the order.

  If you think Ruben is ready to replace Jose offensively, you’re smoking some good stuff. Ruben should be PAIRED with Jose @ the top of the order and on the infield.
• Joe Diaz October 18, 2011 at 8:26 pm

  I have been advocating rebuilding since the end of 2008.When a team chokes away two straight playoff berths the final 2 weeks of the season,back up the truck. I kind of agree with John,just wish they got rid of them both back in 08 when they had enormous trade value.
• acoustic567 October 18, 2011 at 9:20 pm

  I’ve always liked Tejada, and I think he can be an important piece on a good club, but I am not enthused about making him the starting SS. He has the skills to be a league-average shortstop defensively, but no more than that; his arm is good but not great, and the same is true of his range. When you add to that the fact that his ceiling offensively seems to be as a .360-.370 OBA guy with no power and not a lot of speed, I don’t think that’s enough to make him the everyday SS. I do think, though, he has a chance to be an outstanding defensive 2B, where his skills play better. I would rather have the Mets keep Reyes and trade Wright this winter, assuming they could get a good package for him. I think you could do a lot worse than Daniel Murphy as the everyday 3B, with Reyes at SS and Tejada at 2B. I really hate the idea of Murphy at 2B — I still believe that teams need to be strong up the middle.
• Sadat October 18, 2011 at 9:24 pm

  Ewwwww You’re a Cardinals fan? Were you rooting for them in 2006 as well? Ewwwww…
• tlagee October 18, 2011 at 11:44 pm

  Replace arguably the game’s most exciting player with a punch and Judy hitter because the owner of the number one market baseball team got hoodwinked in a ponzie scheme. I don’t see any upside to this thinking. And to suggest that this owner would take that money and invest in pitching – pretty naive.

  We have – what? tens of millions of dollars coming off the books that the GM already says will not be going back into the team.

  So, to suggest that we take two home grown all-stars and let one of them go and trade the other is not sitting well with me.

  The Mets have huge holes in their pitching, catching and parts of the outfield. The will not compete for a championship next year. Again, this is the number one market in the world for baseball and we are all set to drink the Madoff Kool-Aid.

  And why does Fred want to maintain ownership of the Mets by nickel and dime-ing? So that Jeff Wilpon can one day own the team. Now, I don’t know about you but I agree with many people in believing that Jeff Wilpon should not be anywhere near the Mets.
• alex68 October 19, 2011 at 7:47 am

  john delcos, by now i think is fair to assume you don’t like reyes, all your post have reyes pegged on another team, the draft picks you’d get for him when he leaves, and now you want tejada at SS and use the money to pay him to be used to fill other holes.. well that’s great, but do you realize we can sign reyes, trade dwright for pitching, sign more pitching, and still go after more pitching… stop with this, jose reyes is the best player the new york mets have and you wanna fill other holes by creating a MAMMOTH size hole at SS?? how do you know what we gt instead of reyes or that the money will be used to fill other holes with good players? this is just pathetic, mets fans have became to obsess with this payroll reduction that now is ok to get rid of our best players just so the payroll is not too high… wow..
  • metsaddict77 October 19, 2011 at 11:12 am

    I’M SO SICK OF PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT 2014 AS IF IT’S A LOCK OR SOMETHING.young kids are a bigger gamble than high priced free agents.yay for 2014 but screw the next three seasons.that’s a great model to follow, please.
    • t agee October 19, 2011 at 11:27 am

      The thing about expensive free agents is that their not supposed to be a gamble. The cost of them is supposed to guarantee a certain minimum level of performance and that hasn’t been the case here.

      Some have played well for a short period of time and others have played poorly for a longer period of time. Beltran is really the only free agent that played well for an extended period and lived up to his contract.

      When you give up the chance to draft the best players in order to get someone who spends most of their time with you on the DL or you immediately regret signing the guy, your prospects are going to be more iffy than if you had drafted guys who went in the first two rounds. That’s where the best prospects in baseball come from. 25% in the first round, 12.5% of them in the 2nd.
      • metsaddict77 October 19, 2011 at 11:40 am

        i just don’t like the idea of sacrifising the next three seasons and putting all our hopes on some kids in the low minors.i’m not saying going out there and getting the yankees payroll,but you would have to be an idiot to reduce ur options by only doing the draft and farm system method.there’s no reason why we can’t go after free agents who can help us while draft intelligently and getting our kids to help us out later.it’s just crazy to me to put all our hopes on some kids who are in the LOW minors,and say screw the next three years.getting pitchers with injury problems and calling them low risk is not a way to biuld a team.how many teams out there win with JUST homegrown talent,none, they always have some free agent that contributes.
      • METS62FAN October 20, 2011 at 10:42 am

        T, I WAS TAKEN ABACK BY YOUR PRESENTATION OF BELTRAN AS A FULFILLED CONTRACT AS HE MISSED NEARLY ONE QUARTER(24%) OF THE GAMES HE WAS PAID FOR. A DISMAL PARTICIPATION RATE FOR SOMEONE WHO AVERAGED ONLY 17 SB/Y DURING HIS STAY

        BY MY ESTIMATION THE TWO MOST DEVASTATING FINANCIAL “MISTAKES” IN NYM HISTORY HAS BEEN BELTRAN ($119M FOR 741G OUT OF 972 OVER 6 YRS) AND SANTANA(82.5M,TO DATE,FOR 40 VICTORIES OVER 4 YRS).

        WITH THE 32M FLUSHED ON BAY BEING THIRD.

        HOW MANY ENTIRE LEVELS OF PLAYER DEVELOPMENT COULD BE MANAGED FOR THE 54M/YR AVG THESE POOR INVESTMENTS REPRESENT?
        • Metsie October 20, 2011 at 11:27 am

          Beltran was not really all that disastrous 62.
          When he played he put up the numbers, Injury can not be considered contract failure. Organizational failure maybe, they botched his medical condition and cost us more time than was needed.

          If they had let him have the surgery from the get go they would not have lost the 2010 season. Or much much less of it!

          The medical well being is the responsability of the club to make sure he is well looked after, in the proper condition and that when he does get hurt to minimize the damage by treating promptly and properly.

          That didn’t happen in the case of Beltran.
          And you can’t really say that when he was playing he didn’t earn and do what it was he was paid to do. Except maybe in August of 2010 where he was rushed back and it took time to get his swing back, which it should be pointed out he certainly did and then played most of the games we plaed this year before he got traded!
        • t agee October 20, 2011 at 12:42 pm

          ’62, I look at it more about what the guy does on the field when he is healthy. When Beltran was healthy he played great. OK 2005 was underwhelming but the off season a free agent has is quite often different than the off season he’s had in years past and that’s almost to be expected.

          2006, 2007, 2008 and the first half of 2009 and 2011 Beltran was great, and he didn’t give back any of his offense by being a slouch on D. The SB is a non issue for me when your hitting in front of Delgado cause you want Delgado hitting, not being IBB’d.

          Sure we paid him a lot but I feel he paid us back in full and cost us just a #3 and left behind a real top pitching prospect to boot and provided a tremendous amount of class while he was here.

          All around good job by both Minaya and Alderson with Beltran.

          Compare that job with Moises Alou for instance. No one could have expected Moises to last 4-5 years so why would you give up a #1 draft choice for him? Hey, he hit great, got subbed out for Endy in the 7th and that was a real effective situation but he only played 100 games over two seasons and both years we came up one game short. When he left, he left behind nothing, so in essence our #1 draft choice hit great for about 25% of two years. (between coming out in the 7th and only playing 1/3rd of the games) Let’s not pretend that season ending injury to Moises wasn’t a very real consideration.

          Sure our pick could have busted and we would have gotten zero but it also could have been Mike Stanton. Maybe we take Kunz with the pick we gave up, Vineyard with the pick we took Kunz on and Stanton or Jordan Zimmerman with the pick we kept. The thing is you just don’t know, but with an extra first round pick you have a chance, without it you have no chance. Alou was what we needed then but cost us the chance of having what we need now. Basically the upside of Moises for a year or two doesn’t even come close to the upside of what a #1 draft choice could do for you over 6 – 10 years, even if it was only to prevent you from making yet another mistake in free agency that alone is worth something.

          Santana has also pitched real well when he’s been here. He’s had numerous good outings blown by the pen. Numerous ones. Like probably 20. That should be 15 more wins. Bad defense by Murphy, Cora, Castillo and Delgado hurt too as did weak offense by Schneider, Church, Cora, Castillo, ect. Seven years in a Major League contract implies you’ll get 5 good ones. 600 IP at a sub .300 ERA over his first 3 years is pretty damn good as was the Marlin game on short rest (and a knee needing surgery) the 2nd to last day of the 2008 season.

          I can understand that you feel we haven’t gotten full value out of Johan but I would say that has more to do with who was behind him on the field and in the pen than him. What we get in 2012 and 2013 is what will determine whether we’ve gotten full value and a certain large part of that will be if we can continue getting value from Johan’s deal after 2014 by dealing him at the deadline for a top prospect rather than having the well run dry like it has with most free agents and salary dump acquisitions.

          Keeping the “value chain” producing is a big part of providing your own solutions and avoiding the need for 7 year 135 M contracts, and the NEED to forfeit a first round pick for a 40 year old OFer.

          It may have been a different era but the idea is the same. When Jerry Koosman was traded we got Jesse Orrosco. Koosmans 12 years and Jessie’s 8 filled key roles for us for 20 years. I can think of a dozen guys who’s “value” lasted two to three years or less and that’s the reason for all the “holes” we have to fill every year.

          All in all you could not really expect an injury of the sort that got Beltran and thought process behind the move is all you can criticize and the thought process was, one of the 10 best CFers of all time basically in his prime for 4/7 of those years and so talented that his decline would be very slow. That’s good thought process. 7 years for a 29 year old pitcher. That’s more need and desperation and failure of the farm system from the five to ten years beforehand that caused that need as well as poorly thought out free agent signings and salary dump acquisitions that turned into nothing better than “salary relief,” if that.
        • t agee October 20, 2011 at 12:58 pm

          Bay is yet another example of the band aid on a bald tire approach. Look around every year to see “who we can get.” Explain it all away with “who could have expected Coleman, Alomar, Vaughn, Cedeno, Bonilla, Burnitz, Castillo, Perez, or Bay to “fall off a cliff?”

          Well that’s the GM’s job. To accurately project how guys will perform going forward. Any office girl playing fantasy baseball can tell you how a guy did his last three years but the GM is here to predict how the player will play on into the future. How well and how much. Then weigh that reasonable projection (not just the best case or what looks good at ticket selling time) vs. what else the team could do with that cash and the future value they won’t have a chance to acquire due to giving up draft choices or prospects.

          There are other factors too. Differences in line ups, home field, other options, type B’s, trades, non tenders, ect. All have to be considered. Castillo and Alou were signed before any of those list even came out.

          Teams with strong scouting departments get you strong farm systems and are good at identifying the right guy before he’s nearing decline and with the farm you can get anyone you want. Anyone at all. Your not LIMITED to the free agent or salary dump. You can call any GM about any player and get his better years instead of his last ones.

          Too frequently we have “won the off season” only to be out of it on August 1st.
          • Metsie October 20, 2011 at 1:14 pm

            The Bay signing was an example of buying a Chevy and paying caddy prices all because there were no Caddies available and the market bid up the chevy!

            Was it a mistake? Sure but not because buying is the wrong approach but buying mediocre at a time when there was nothing better available to drive his price down to what he deserved!

            I was a matter of supply and demand that made the Bay deal a bad one. He was one of the top 2 players in FA that year by everyone’s standards which made his value higher not because of what he did but because no one else available was any better!

            We should have bought Pitching which we REALLY needed at the time not a HR hitter in a park that makes HRs nearly impossible to hit with any regularity!
    • METS62FAN October 19, 2011 at 12:06 pm

      ADLED ADDICT, NO THERE’S NO GUARANTEES JUST LOGIC. CERTAINLY, IF YOUR WIFE’S EXPECTING YOU’LL PREPARE FOR A SUCCESSFUL DELIVERY BY PREPING A ROOM, BUYING THE “GADGETS” STROLLER,HIGHCHAIR,CRIB,CARSEAT
      IF ALL WE HAD ON THE HORIZON WAS ANOTHER 3 AKIN TO GEN-K; BUT TODAY, THERE’S AT LEAST 5,6 NAMEABLE POTENTIAL PITCHING UPGRADES RIPENING ON THE VINES, NO, U DON’T JUST TWIDDLE YOUR THUMBS, YOU PREPARE BY KEEPING THE BEST THAT U HAVE ala REYES, WRIGHT & DAVIS NOT CONSIDER WEAKENING YOUR OFFENSE TO INVEST IN A FEW MORE “BETTER-THAN-AVG” PITCHERS WHEN U KNOW THEY ARE SOON TO BE SUPERFLUOUS IF U R IMPLYING A POTENTIAL TO CONTEND SOONER, CERTAINLY THAT ISN’T AS LIKELY SANS REYES,WERIGHT OR OTHER STALWARTS BEING CONSIDERED AS FODDER FOR FOOLISH USELESS NAMELESS UPGRADES

      FORTUNATELY, MEJIA, HARVEY, WHEELER, FAMILIA, GORSKI, URBINA REPRESENT A POTENTIAL COST EFFECTIVE MORE VIABLE,VALUABLE SOLUTION WORTH “MAINTAINING FOR” RATHER THAN DEMOLISHING IN LIEU OF. WHILE OLD SAYINGS HAVE WITHSTOOD THE TEST OF TIME, I’M COGNIZANT ENOUGH NOT TO COUNT EGGS AS CHICKENS; BUT AM EQUALLY AWARE THERE IS SAFETY IN NUMBERS ALL TOO OFTEN I’VE EXPERIENCED 5Y REBUILDING PLANS PROPOSED BY THIS CLUB REDUCED TO 2Y RUBBLE AT THE SLIGHTEST HINT OF TAKING A SHORTCUT. THAT IS THE EXACT RATIONALE THAT HAD SOME SEE SOLUTIONS IN NAMES LIKE BENSON,ZAMBRANO & VELANDIA AND ONLY DOUBTS IN KAZMIR,WIGGINTON,CRUZ; PERHAPS U’D PREFER TO PURUSE THE 79 PAGES OF IMPATIENCE PORTAYED HERE:http://ultimatemets.com/trades.php

      NO, ADDICT U DON’T JUST “SCREW THE NEXT 3 SEASONS ANY MORE THAN U SPEND LAVISHLY ON PARTIAL SOLUTIONS LIKE 1 TOPNOTCH SP WHEN U NEED 3,4.
      THE METS MORE RESEMBLE THAT ROWBOAT WITH TYHE CREENFOOR BOTTOM THAN THE TITANIC; BUT EITHER WAY IT’S NOT A QUICK & EASY PATCH. PERSONALLY, THE PLAN, I’VE READ MAING THE MOST SENSE IS ACQUIRING A MOLINA LIKE CATCHER THOUGH I FEAR A THOLE,NICKEAS COMPLIMENT ON THE HORIZON THERE ISN’T ANY VIABLE SOLUTION, I SEE AT MAKING US INTO A STRONG CONTENDER FOR MORE THAN JUST 1 SEASON, SOONER THAN ’14 BECAUSE SANTANA,DICKEY,NEISE,GEE + ANYONE OFF THE F/A LIST ISN’T DOING IT IN FRONT OF THE ’27 YANKS PLAYING IN A BANDBOX.
      ADDICT, LEARN THE LESSON THE PHILLIES JUST TAUGHT U, THERE NOT ONLY ISN’T CRYING IN BASEBALL, THERE AREN’T ANY GUARANTEES(LOCKS) EITHER.
      BTW, AS SOMEONE SUBJECTED TO REDS Vs METS GAMES OFF CINCY FEED; VOTTO AIN’T GOING ANYWHERE! SAME AS ALL THOSE LUDICROUS RUMORS OF PHILLIPS’ EARLIER AVAILABILITY. 90% OF THE SOCALLED RUMORS ARE GARBAGE
• Metsie October 19, 2011 at 11:37 am

  Santana coming back, Ike Davis finally healed and ready to make CitiField not a factor in hitting HRs, Daniel Murphy ready to drive in runs if he gets hurt again, Duda now the everyday RFer, three 2Bs who seem to be able to hit, the Batting champion at SS, Harvey, and Familia near ready to be promoted and we need two more years to compete?

  Did KMart (where these guys shop) have a sale on Lily Colored Glasses?
  I presume Lillies being the DEATH flower where Rose Colored glasses are about optimism!

  Anyone who thinks 2014 is the right timing for this team either isn’t paying attention or is more interested in implementing some BAD SLOW COOK Philosophy that requires taking 10 steps back to try and get 3 steps forward. Unfortunatly if we do what they say that will still leave us 7 steps back! -10+3 equals -7!

  You know what would be better?
  Keep what good we have!
  Get a good SP either via trade or Buy to complement Santana, Niese, Dickey and Gee and can be the mentor to Harvey and Familia in 2013!
  Keep Ike and Wright healthy and decide on Wright’s re-signing next year.
  Fix the pen the way the kMart guys are suggesting anyway and don’t give up when your team is capable of playing .519 baseball in May, .593 beaseball in June and .519 baseball in July!
  And if they ARE don’t SELL talent buy some with all those minor leaguers the kMart shoppers say we don’t have but want to rely on until some magic happens in 2014 that is going to make all of Sandy’s draft picks MLB ready in 3 years!
  Like that has ever happened EVER!
  • METS62FAN October 20, 2011 at 10:19 am

    METSIE, PERHAPS U’LL UNDERSTAND BETTER ONCE I POINT OUT THAT OF ALL THOSE PROJECTED POSITIVES U APROPRITELY SITE, ONLY ONE, SANTANA’S RETURN, REFLECTS UPON PITCHING, THE MOST IMPORTANT SINGULAR INGREDIANT TO WINNING BASEBALL. INASMUCH AS NO PITCHER RECOVERING FROM THE SPECIFIC PROCEDURE JOHAN UNDERWENT HAS RETURNED TO FORMER ABILITIES IT SHULD BE NOTED THAT PRIOR TO SURGERY JOHAN’S LESS THAN DOMINANT NYM CAREER STATS WERE 40-25 2.84,1.19 AT FULL RECOVERY THAT ISN’T6 LIKELY TO STAND UP WELL Vs HALLADAY, HUDSON, JOHNSON, STRAUSSBERG AS IT HADN’T BEFORE SO WHY NOW? LGICALLY SPEAKING BECAUSE I FORESEE OUR MOST ADVANCED PITCHING PROSPECT AS MEJIA(LIKELY A LATE ’12 MLB AVAILABLE; MORE LIKELY A RETN TO AAA IN ’12 FOR QUARTER SEASON THEN MLB READY FOR ’13 AS LIKELY FAMILIA & HARVEY ARE, SINCE ROOKS ARE BY DEFINITION IN NEED OF SOME MLB EXPERIENCE BEFORE FULL FLOWERING OCCURS, WE ARE CONSERVATIVELY @ ’14 WHEN MEJIA,HARVEY & FAMILIA ARE RELIABLY CAPABLE OF MATCHING UP AGAINST ALL COMERS AS LATE ’14 LIKELY SEES CUPS OF COFFEE SERVED TO WHEELER & GORSKI.
    ALSO, IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT THE 25M FOR SANTANA AS WELL AS THE 16M ON BAY WILL BE JETTISONED BY ’14 ALLOWING FOR NON-PITCHING UPGRADES AS AVAILABLE TO BE ADDED AS PAYROLL WILL ALREADY BE BELOW 110M WITH BOTH & ABOUT 60M WITHOUT, PUTTING EVERY DEASIRED F/A “TARGET” WELL WITHIN RANGE
    METSIE, THE 2014 CONJECTURE, I’VE ESPOSTYILATED WAS DONE SO TO DELIBERATELY ASCERTAIN THE EARLIEST PERCEIVED DEFINITE, NO EXCUSES DATE TO EMERGE FROM THE PRESWENT TUNNEL,
    COULD IT BE SOONER? POSSIBLY; BUT I WAS SEEKING THE “DEFINITE” ANSWER BASEC UPON LOGIC OG MOST LIKELY DEVELOPMENTS, NOT BEST CASE SCENE4RIOS AS SANTANA IS AS MUCH AN UNKNOWN AS EVER COULD BE CONSIDERED.

    THINK PEDRO POST ’06 NOT JESUS POST GOOD FRIDAY WHEN CONJECTURING ON SANTANA’S RETN.
    • Metsie October 20, 2011 at 10:49 am

      This is why I have supported going after a very good SP to offset any problems Santana might have coming back and to have in the fold if and when Harvey and Familia are brought up!

      If Santana fails (and there is no reason to believe he will still be a good #1 Ace type) at least there is someone to mentor the kids in 2013 they way a guy like BobbyO helped guys like Darling and Gooden.

      pretty much we KNOW (save a SP buy) what we have as our starting rotation next year.
      What they will or can do is in question.
      Santana – Established maybe as we don’t know
      Pelfrey – (if not let go) is not any better answered than Santana in fact odds are he will be worse than Santana even with his coming back from Injury!
      Dickey – Solid, Not a #1 but a guy who gets the job done
      Niese – Young, needs seasoning, has the ability, Will it Show?
      Gee – Rookie, started strong finished weak TSTT

      That leave Capuano who is a coin flip and almost as sketchy s Pelfrey in that he looks fine until the 5th or 6th inning hits and then he gets possessed bu Oliver Perez!

      If we were to go after a solid SP FA even if at best he would be a #2 type that would be a #1 on that list I just mentioned. If better was available (and I think we can say it isn’t unless a trade is made which is possible) then it makes more sense to go after it.
      Even if reyes goes our IF is set.
      No matter what happens with Santana will be less of a concern with a better SP than most of what we have in the rotation,
      And if Wright, Davis stay healthy then we are not that far away from competing.
      The thinking is Davis and Duda can provide the pop we lost from Beltran and maybe just a bit more. and I for one don’t care how much Bay gets paid if he doesn’t start hitting it’s platoon city for him!
      Pagan is servicable if not consistent and Thole is young and did enough to merit going with one more year since there is no one available that is much better offensivly and defensively is only important because of the nature of our IMPLODING Starting rotation!

      If we had pitched in 2011 the way we pitched in 2010 we would have been in the playoff race this year!
      So that should be the focus. Keep what would hae been good enough and augment and improve what held them back….

      Thats my feeling on how best to proceed from here!
      Shore up the pitching until Harvey Familia and Mejia can come in to do that!
      And do what we can to maintain the regulars we have and if something to improve comes along fine go for it.
      • METS62FAN October 20, 2011 at 11:53 am

        METSIE, I EVALUATE WHETHER A SP IS AN ACE BASED UPON MATCHUPS NOT GENERAL STATISTICS IN OTHER WORDS, HIS ABILITY TO EXCEED OTHER #1s IN SUCCESSIVE ZEROES ON THE BOARD, IN THAT REGARD, IMO, DICKEY WAS OUR BEST AT IT LAST SEASON & WHERE SANTANA HAS WOEFULLY DISAPPOINTED ME IN FALLING SHORT IN ZEROES AGAINST HIS PEERS FROM PHL,ATL,NYY OVER 4 YRS.

        TO ME, PEDRO(’05) & SEAVER(ANYTIME) WERE THE BEST #1s WE’VE EMPLOYED OVER THE PAST 50 YRS AS BE IT SMOLTZ,CARPENTER,MUSSINA FOR PEDRO OR GIBSON, CARLTON,JENKINS,DRYSDALE FOR SEAVER WE TYPICALLY GARNERED THE MORE ZEROES WHERE IT COUNTS THE MOST.

        TO ME THE CONFIDENCE THAT YOUR OPONENT HAS NOTHING TO EXCEED YOUR #1 IS WHAT CONSTITUTES THE GREATEST OVERALL ADVANTAGE OF HAVING A TRUE “ACE”.
        UNFORTUNATELY WE HAVEN’T HAD THAT PARTICULAR LUXURY SINCE LATE IN ’06. UNFORTUNATELY THE ART OF ROTATION JUGGLING HAS DISSIPATED EXCLUDING A FAIR COMPARATIVE # FOR GOODEN EXCEPT FOR THE UNBALANCED SCHEDULE & ATL SHIFT TO EAST DIV WHERE BOBBY COX WHO STILL PRACTICED IT WHENEVER ATLANTA/NY WERE SCHEDULED(18X) FOR IT WAS NOT BY CHANCE WE HARDLY EVER FACED THEIR #4,5 STARTERS, YET EVERY SERIES CAME UP AGAINST MADDOX OR SMOLTZ DEPENDING UPON THE YR WHICH WAS SEATED #1. COX, THE MASTER, BEGAN PREPARING 2 SERIES AWAY SHIFTING A DAY HERE OR THERE BASED ON EXCUSES OF ADDED REST OR NEDEED WORK, WHICHEVER FIT.
        IT’S NO COINCIDENCE OR FLUKE THAT THE GREAT “LEFTY” WAS ENSHRINED IN COOPERSTOWN WITH A LOSING RECORD AGAINST ONLY ONE CASREER OPPONENT, THE THEN LOWLY NYM. PRIMARILY DUE TO MATCHUPS OF THIS KIND 1 Vs 1! SEAVER V. CARLTON.

        SEAVER PROVED THAT REGARDLESS OF THE QUALITY OF YOUR LINEUP AN ACE WAS TO BE RELIED ON, AS HE BATTLED WITH A WEAK OFFENSE THROUGH MOST OF HIS PITCHING CAREER FOR A TEAM WITH A MISERABLE 878-903 RECORD IN THE 11 NYM YRS HE WENT 191-143 FROM (’67-’76+’83)

        AS ONE OF THE VERY FEW PEOPLE WHO LIKELY RECALL 90% OF THE LYRICS TO THE “I’M TOM TERRIFIC” SONG, I CAN TRULY STATE THAT SEAVER’S RECORD TRANSCENDS DISCUSSIONS OF RUN SUPPORT AS A NECESSUITY SINCE MOST TRUE #1s TYPICALLY GET LITTLE TO COUNT ON AS BY SHEER ROTATIONAL PROGRESS THEY MATCH UP WITYH THEIR OPPOSITION PEER CAPABLE OF EQUALLY CONSTRAINING SCORING OF ANY KIND.
        • Metsie October 20, 2011 at 12:42 pm

          one way to look at and define ACE for sure.
          But in the way I’m defining it is who can you get that will immediatly be the best pitcher of your Staff!

          Sure there are Guys who would be an ACE on ANY team! Halladay, Lee.
          And then there are other ACES who on that team (Phillies) would be a #3 starter!

          While you method is correct to judge who is the BEST Ace, it does not always apply or is even available to limit the focus to that.

          To floow what I was saying a bit clearer:
          If you get a guy this year who is better than every SP you have, in OUR case he is a ACE! TOP Pitcher on your team. If you find others who are better it will not diminish what you got AS your Ace previously all it means is your one time Ace is now you #2 Pitcher!

          Top youself when you can, If (and as this year shows) there is no Cliff Lee to get well you still look for someone who is much better than anything you have!
          If you get more from Sanatana Great! If not you still got better than you had, and when a REAL ANYTEAM Ace comes along then you can still go after him.
          Dickey gave us lots of Quality starts which to me is a pretty damn good judge of pitching prowess.
          He’s no Ace by any means but he is our Best Pitcher when it comes right down to it.
          By having one more guy who can get the same if not more Quality starts that is an improvment that if and when you get that REAL ACE (either via FA or MiL development) will not be wasted just what WAS your best guy is now your 2nd Best guy!

          Because of the uncertainty with Santana and everyone else, It stands to reason to go after a guy who is much better than what we have regardless of him not being Lee and Halladay!

          A guy who may not have the stuff but the experience and knowledge to help harvey and Familia become the next Lee Hamels or Halliday!

          Who is that guy is the question.
• Metstheory22 October 19, 2011 at 5:54 pm

  Okay folks here’s a thought.

  Carlos Zambrano and Cubs pay most of his money for M. Pelfrey. They both need a change of scene.
  Cubs get rid of a “headcase” for our “headcase” and it’s only for a year. Zambrano number are pretty decent besides last year. He is better at 1 or 2 than Pelfrey and we might luck out and get a good year from him.
  • Who October 19, 2011 at 6:00 pm

    Oh God no…I’d much rather have Pelfrey. To start, I wouldn’t necessarily say that Pelfrey’s a headcase but Zambrano is a complete and utter nutjob and he’s frankly not even that good at pitching anymore. Pelfrey’s inconsistent because he doesn’t strike anybody out and relies solely on the ball finding gloves and not going over the wall. And the whole hand-licking thing is way overplayed. So what…everybody has a tick.

    Believe me, Pelf’s certainly not my favorite pitcher to watch but I’ll take him over a certifiably crazy person like Zambrano everyday of the week.
    • Metstheory22 October 20, 2011 at 7:34 am

      I usually would not go after Zambrano either but if we look at his situation. It’s only for a year and Pelfrey IS going to be a free agent next year with Boras as his agent. I think Zambrano has more upside than Pelfrey.
  • any October 19, 2011 at 8:55 pm

    make in Bay instead, and then we can start talking.
• nathan October 19, 2011 at 7:40 pm

  I am not usually a proponent of large F.A. contracts but when the F.A. is your own guy who is the longest tenured Met, Under 30, and your most consistant position player you have to start thinking about the message it sends to the team to let that guy go. Not only that but hnestly watching Reyes and possibly Dickey are the reasons I tuned in this year. Maybe I am alone on this but I have been a Met fan for quite a while and this would be the equivilant of trading Seaver to this newer generation of Mets fans.
  • METS62FAN October 20, 2011 at 9:42 am

    AMEN, NATHAN, TOO MANY SABERHEADS FORGET THE EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENTS BASEBALL CONSTRUCTS.

    FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCES, MY WIFE, A NATIVE LOS ANGELEAN, WHO “TOLERATES” MY MET ARDOR VERY WELL, HAS ALREADY PROCLAIMED HER INTENT TO “NOT ATTEND OR EVEN WATCH ANOTHER GAME IF REYES DEPARTS. ALSO OUR NEARLY 20 YR OLD SON, WHO WENT FROM T-BALL TO TRAVEL BALL FRUSTRATED IN HIS DESIRE TO SECURE #7 FOR HIS BACK SIMPLY BECAUSE IT WAS IN SUCH GREAT DEMAND HERE IN NC, OF ALL PLACES & BTW THESE KIDS WERE ALL TO YOUNG TO HAVE ANY MANTLE EMOTIONS. HE TOO, DESPITE BEING BORN IN SANTA MONICA, CA, MOVING TO NC @ AGE 7,8(FIRST GRADE) HAS AVOWED TO NOT CARE WHAT OCCURS IN FLUSHING FOR A TEAM WITHOUT REYES, AS HIS OLDER(42) SISTER SIMILARLY VOWED TO “JUMP SHIP” WHEN FAVORITES FLYNN, THEN BROOKS WERE DISPATCHED ELSAEWHERE, NEVER COMPLETED HER THREAT, NOW RAISING TWO ADDITIONAL BLUE & ORANGE STALWARTS OF HER OWN BTW NB MY SON CAN OCCASIONALLY BE FOUND HERRE UNDER THE APT MONIKER OF “REYESFAN”
    THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO RASTIONAL REASON TO ALLOW REYES TO DEPART WITHOUT AT LEAST HAVING HIM DECLINE A COMPETITIVE OFFER OF SAY 5Y/$110M OR $22M/YR. THT’S CHEAP ENOUGH FOR SUCH A MULTIFACETED PLAYER WHO PROVIDES EXCELLENT SS, LEADOFF, IGNITER CAPABILITIES IMO, THE “SOUL” OF TRHIS TEAM
    MY LAST THOUGHT IS THAT EVERY SINGLE ONE OF OUR OPPONENTS ADDRESS “HANDLING” REYES AS A KEY COMPONENT TO THEIR SUCCESS IN FACING THE METS.
    AS NEARLY EVERYONE LUSTS FOR A GUARANTEED 20G WINNER BE ASDDED; I’ GUARANTEE THAT IN ALMOST EVERY ONE OF HIS 8,9 SEASONS AS A MET JOSE HAS SINGLE HANDEDLY PROVIDED THE DIFFERENCE IN ATR LEAST 20Ws/SEASON. NOT EBVEN HALLADAY CAN MATCH THAT.
  • Metsie October 20, 2011 at 10:18 am

    So true Nathan…

    Bottomline is it’s one thing to spend wildly on a new guy whose performance is based on the situation of WHERE HE WAS not where he is going to be (Jason Werth a FINE example here!)
    As opposed to keeping the guy who did his work in the SAME SITUATION, SAME TEAM, SAME STADIUM and very likely to repeat that success because nothing really has changed unless you changed it and believe it is a move that improves what is around that guy!

    Baseball is as much a STAR DRAW business as anything else!
    No Stars no Draw no matter how much you win!
    (look at Oakland’s attendance figures when they were winning 100 games for proof!)

    Team building no matter what your subscribed philosophy is about keeping the best players and improving on those who can be replaced by better!
    You can’t do that if you let your best player walk!
    No Amount you think you saved will buy you the amount you lost AND more!
    And since salaries don’t ever go down from year to year, you will more likely pay MORE for LESS because the money you didn’t spend on Reyes is going to go to a lesser player because thats where the salary is for FAs regardless of their performance in comparison to the guy you let go!

    Jason Werth got what he did because he was the best FA available last year next to Crawford and Lee.
    Not because he compared well to all the other guys who get paid that much.

    So keeping your own no matter what philosophy you subscribe to is KEY!
    You keep the good and then get better where you can afford it!
    Cause at least you know what your OWN can do on YOUR OWN team!
    He’s actually done it!
    Didn’t need some OTHER team to do it!
    If your not going to keep your own good players then no point going after other team’s good players!
    You would just be chasing your tail and fail a lot because your valuing players based on an OUTSIDE situation you probably can’t give them because you don’t have what they had to make that hguy maintain what he did!