20
2013
Leaving Collins’ Fate Up In The Air Can Blow Up In Sandy’s Face
An article by 
Post Updated on 3/20
I caught this transcript on MetsBlog this morning. They were comments made by Sandy Alderson who was a guest on the New York Post’s baseball podcast. The subject was Terry Collins‘s lame duck status and the possibility of a contract extension in the future:
“Well, I want Terry to be the manager. He and I have a great rapport. I think he does a great job with the players. They believe in him. I just felt that going into this season with the disappointment of the last couple – and I don’t mean that in not getting into the playoffs – more about how we played in the first half and the second half – a lot of that has to do with personnel. It doesn’t have to do with leadership. It has to do with the depth of the personnel and injuries and whether or not you can overcome those.
Often it’s not about the manager, but about what depth you have in your system. We have more and more depth to draw on and I think we’re seeing that. But I think in part for that reason – and in part for the desire just to see how the team continues to develop – this is the best thing for the Mets. It doesn’t mean Terry won’t be with us long term, and it doesn’t mean he’ll be judged on wins and losses either.”
You all know my feelings on this as we’ve discussed this quite often over the last 3-4 months. I think having a lame duck manager in this town is a big mistake. I believe Alderson is being naive and as usual he likes to be reactive rather than proactive. He takes that approach with every decision he makes and is never out front on anything. He loves to wait things out. Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails.
I would love to see him get a dose of his own medicine when he enters his own lame duck season and hope the Wilpons leave him flapping in the wind, if only to show him how it can undermine one’s authority and ability to make decisions based on the long term because you are mostly worried about the short term.
Collins inherits a 74 win team that has a weakened rotation and outfield. His rotation lost a 20-game winner that accounted for more than 25% of the team’s wins last season and his spot in the rotation has been taken by Shaun Marcum. Scott Hairston, who was no great shakes mind you, was still the second best slugger on the team in 2012 and he was replaced by Collin Cowgill.
The bullpen, as always is a crapshoot, and the de facto closer for now is Bobby Parnell who hasn’t succeeded in that role in the past, and in fact may be a downgrade to Frank Francisco if you can believe that. The rest of the pen is a rag-tag group of scrap heap signings, journeymen and just one youngster with loads of potential who may wind up getting burned out by June if he indeed becomes the only lefty in the pen. I’m talking about Josh Edgin.
Collins will do what he can to survive. During his tenure as Mets manager, he’s lost half an All Star team worth of talent with nothing to show for it at the major league level – it’s all simmering in the minors with some pieces still years away.
You gotta feel bad for the guy….
Post Updated on 2/16
Collins is the final year of his contract, which he originally signed in November 2010.
According to Ken Davidoff of the New York Post, Wally Backman isn’t looking to take Terry Collins’ job as manager of the Mets, but his goal is definitely to manage in the big leagues.
For now, Backman is focused on what he’s being paid for and that is to mange the Triple-A Las Vegas 51′s this season.
As I said before, and you can read below, I thought it was naive for Alderson to think Collins’ lame duck status wouldn’t become an issue. Here is what he said last week:
“I think it will only be an issue if Terry makes it an issue or I make it an issue,” Alderson said. Wrong answer Mr. Alderson, this isn’t something you can sweep under the rug and pretend it goes away.
Backman may have just made it an issue:
“I know that his contract’s coming up, and he knows it. Everybody knows it. It’s a tough spot for him and, really, for me.”
Alderson did little to extinguish what Backman said by telling Davidoff on Saturday, that he believes Backman is capable of managing in the big leagues right now.
Yep… This is going to be a big issue – like it or not.
Original Post 2/2
Last night, Sandy Alderson revisited the subject of Terry Collins, who is in the final year of his contract and heads into this season as a lame duck.
“I think it will only be an issue if Terry makes it an issue or I make it an issue,” Alderson said. “I hope we don’t let the media make it an issue, although it’s a question that I’m sure will be asked, especially early in spring training.”
“But I’ve talked to Terry. I think he’s comfortable with his situation. And I know that whatever happens this season, there will be a fair evaluation at the end.”
This is not that different from what he said right after ringing in the new year:
“Look, it would be disingenuous to say, no, it won’t be an issue. Sometimes it becomes an issue. I think it’s a function of whether Terry makes it an issue, or the club makes it an issue, or the media makes it an issue. I understand the possibility it could become something. I hope it doesn’t.”
I think Collins is eventually going to be the fall guy for 2013 even though he was dealt a bad hand. The truth is that he’s never gotten the opportunity to manage a team that can contend for a title, and when he was able to get the team to play above themselves, he had the rug pulled out from under him.
If this team really is geared for a championship run beginning in 2014, I doubt very much that Collins will be around to see it. I’m pretty certain that he will be cast aside for a younger and newer model, never having an opportunity to reap the rewards of the confidence he’s instilled in some of the team’s younger players.
As for this becoming an issue or not, I think it’s naive to think it won’t be. This will become an issue and you can bet on that. (USA online sportsbooks)
We’ve had dozens of instances like this in the past with the Mets, Yankees, Jets, Giants, Knicks and Rangers, and it always becomes an issue in this town. This isn’t southern California.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 23 | 18 | .561 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 19 | .548 | 0.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 22 | .476 | 3.5 |
| Mets | 16 | 23 | .410 | 6.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 31 | .262 | 12.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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I am with you on not wanting a lame duck manager.
Although, I don’t think anyone saw Collins as the long term answer. I always thought him and Alderson were just here for the lengths of their respective contracts and then moving on. TC, I figured, is tagged to head up stairs into whatever spot gets vacated by Alderson’s successor. If it is depo (but I doubt it) he’d actually be a good fit there.
Terry will be re-assigned after this season. Stay within the organization, but back to the adviser role he had prior. Terry never really was in for the long haul anyway and his in game decision making is suspect.
Hi TX
So if he is going to stay with the organization extend him now. Adding a year would give him some credibility. Terry has held the line while Fred and Sandy regrouped. Terry has been a good organization man. Pay him. Respect him.
Would extending him lock him in as manager though?
No. It would oblige the Mets to pay him. Make the contract so that Terry could be moved to a different position within the organization. Just keep that clause quiet.
I never saw Collins as anything more than a bridge to the future. I wouldn’t be surprised one bit if he got the job simply because he was willing to work for the lowest salary.
It was an ugly job that Terry was given. Preside over the demolition of a team.
If Terry or Sandy don’t make it an issue then it won’t?? Good luck with that in Queens come June 1st. If the Mets do better than expected, it will be an issue. If they do what’s expected, it will be an issue. If they do worse than expected (not sure it’s possible), it will be an issue. Lame duck mangers in NYC…always an issue.
by not make it an issue, I think it simply means that as long as when the question gets asked, the answer from terry or Sandy is always the same (we are going to wait until after the season to evaluate and discuss, and right now terry is the manager) it is not an issue. Not really any angle to play there either.
I Always said Collins was merely a placeholder for Backman…
Also said the next 3 years would be so bad NO manager could succeed!
Terry will take the fall when Heads are asked to roll at the end of the year and the guy they have been grooming (Backman) in the same way they groomed Davey will take over…
You misspelled Tuefel.
You did too….
No…your face did… shut up.
He will NEVER be the manager!
Why not? Everything people praise about Backman, Teufel has more of.
Time in the organization? Tuefel has 10 years to Backman’s 4. And he has a better coaching record career wise.
Teufel was on the 1986 team as part of the 2B platoon.
Teufel helped work with Murphy to improve his defense at 2B.
Teufel is closer to the majors than Backman. He joined the big club’s coaching staff last year. He’s actually there. Every job Backman has had, Teufel had first.
Are we really holding the fact that Teufel doesn’t act out like a buffoon against him?
Because he sucks as a Manager!
Thats why they made him a coach to get him away fro all those kids you bitched about not being developed properly!
So, they put him on the big club and let him work with Murphy?
Ya, that makes total sense. Especially in the face of no one complaining about Teufel’s coaching.
Especially with Backman having problems keeping his teams consistent (to say the least).
HAHAHAHA I guess you wewre still breast feeding when Teufel was the guy who had no glove and was all bat back in the 80′s…
Backman had a great glove! They promoted him to the Majors to get him away from the kids and they could watch over him he will NEVER BE THE MANAGER of the Mets…EVER!
Unless a plane he misses crashes into something!
If Backman’s team had any inconsistency it is due to the fact your hero GM keeps punting on bringing in players and had to hire a shuttle bus between NY and Buffalo the past two years!
“HAHAHAHA I guess you wewre still breast feeding when Teufel was the guy who had no glove and was all bat back in the 80′s…”
Or, I simply know what I’m talking about. You should try it some time. It will open new worlds to you.
“! They promoted him to the Majors to get him away from the kids and they could watch over him he will NEVER BE THE MANAGER of the Mets…EVER!”
Which makes way more sense than, you know, just not renewing him for the last 2 years. Ya, lets keep a guy we don’t like and promote him to the big club and have him work with Murphy. Ya, it makes way more sense to have him in the same clubhouse working with guys like Murphy and Davis and Kirk and Tejada..guys he did such a terrible job with in the minors according to you.
Maybe you’ve got a brilliant explanation for this one: what happened to the speculation that Backman was going to leave if not promoted to the big club? Why is he stalled at AAA?
When Backman becomes manager over Teuf I an just going to laugh in your face after every post you make!
And if Teufel is managing before Backman, meh. I’ll simply be secure in the knowledge that the more qualified out of two good candidates was chosen.
What is best for the team is my main concern here.
From Adam Rubin’s chat last week:
———————-
Gabe (Tallahassee)
If Terry’s contract isn’t renewed after the season, who do you see as the frontrunner? Wally Backman?
Adam Rubin (2:02 PM)
I’ll only speak internally about candidates. I’d say bench coach Bob Geren, who has the ties to the front office from Oakland, would be a candidate. And Tim Teufel, who has definitely served his time and is tight with Mets ownership.
————————————-
But hey, I’m sure you know better than Adam Rubin.
Neither Tuefel or Geren is enough to get excited about. definitley scream of organizational soldier.
Backman though, to me, is more of a myth than reality. I would like to see an actual strong tactical guy for a change, and I have never heard that Wally was that. Being firey, and inspiring guys to run through a wall is wonderful, but once the grustle wears off it is nice to have a guy that can think 2 steps ahead in terms of chess moves, and especially managing a pen!
Nobody is anything to get excited about until they actually accomplish something (at least, that is the way it should be).
The good things a manager do are mostly behind the scenes. In game strategy is at most 10% of a modern day manager’s job. Players generally know their roles and most decisions are made well in advance.
If he has a good relationship with his players, handles the media well and stays consistent with the team’s principals, that right there is a good manager.
Yes I DO know more than a guy who you constantly minimize what he says whenever he says something bad about Sandy….
Good Luck with your little fantasy on Teuf…
I constantly minimize Rubin? When? Do you have a link to something I’ve said? No, you don’t.
While I might disagree with an opinion he expresses on some topics, I never doubt he has a way better handle on what happens in the club house than I ever will.
So, I ask you, do you think you have a better handle on what happens with the Mets out of the public eye than Rubin?
There isn’t one guy in the press you have NOT trashed or doubted his sources whenever something inconvenient about the Mets were written about….
I don’t need to find links everyone who reads this site daily knows that is the damn truth and I don’t need to find a link to prove that because you already look like a fool with zero credibility no need to pile onto that great reputation of yours….
“There isn’t one guy in the press you have NOT trashed or doubted his sources whenever something inconvenient about the Mets were written about….”
Outside of Heyman(Yankee shill), Chass(old crank) and Martino(troll), I generally don’t trash anyone specifically in the media. I take issue with the BBWAA and the industry in general, but I don’t attack specific writers.
But of course, you can’t produce anything to back up your assertion. You just did this to distract from the fact that your argument is invalid.
So again, Metsie, Teufel is ahead of Backman in line for a managerial job.
“I don’t need to find links ”
Ya, you do.
And let us go back to the question you are afraid to answer:
do you think you have a better handle on what happens with the Mets out of the public eye than Rubin?
Of course I can….You seem to be under the misguided impression that I HAVE to prove what everyone else already knows….
When the burden of proof is on you to prove you don’t!
Keep dreaming on Teufel….
Wanna bet posting privs for two years on that?
JoeD can ensure enforcement….
Ready to put your bullying and tripe hobby on the line for what you believe?
Oh, and I should note that since joining CBS full time, Heyman has shown a marked improvement.
So, you won’t answer my question?
Oh well.
“Of course I can”
No you can’t. Now, stop trying to derail the conversation and get back to the topic at hand.
And I like how “bullying” constitutes using documented facts and informed sources to verify one’s position.
As opposed to you using personal insults, getting off topic to avoid direct questions, and appealing to a popular opinion that doesn’t seem to exist and is factually incorrect anyway.
The question you are afraid to answer:
Do you have a better handle on what happens with the Mets out of the public eye than Adam Rubin?
You never answer anyone elses so I see no reason to answer yours whenever posted….
You just batter people until you get caught and then lay low to try again hopefully with better results next time….
You never back up a thing you ever say and whenever evidence you request is presented you merely shut up to try again later….
I don’t have the time to waste on you!
I get better things than to prove to everyone else what they already know….
You know nothing and are only here to bash posters…
You never offer any baseball insight that Jessup didn’t write for you…
I answer each question as directly as I can. If a question is based on nonsense, I try to correct it.
Of course, the question I’m asking you is pretty important to our particular discussion. You are implying more knowledge into what happens with the Mets behind closed doors than Rubin. No matter how much yelling, and lying, and nonsense you spew, that is something you have to answer for us to continue our discussion in anyway remotely resembling productive.
“You never back up a thing you ever say and whenever evidence you request is presented you merely shut up to try again later”
If that were true, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. You are trying to hand wave away a source I presented.
Yeah too bad the rest of us know better….
Rest of us? It’s only you and me in this discussion. Why are you trying to assume some false authority through a consensus that doesn’t exist? Why can’t you simply address my point directly?
Besides, what does popular opinion mean in the face of documented facts?
The reality is, the facts as we have them as well as a credible source put Teufel in line for a manger’s job before Backman.
Is that a guarantee Teufel will manage the Mets before Backman? No. There may be stuff we don’t know (but you’d think Rubin would have implied that) or something can happen in the near future.
But, the facts at hand support my opinion so far. There is no such rumor of them promoting Teufel because they think he is incompetent (not to mention the logical nonsense that would be).
“Rest of us? It’s only you and me in this discussion”
Yeah cause only the person your replying to can read whatever you post…Thats how a BLOG works right?
Snicker Snicker….
I will repeat…I don’t have have to prove your lack of credibility…You have done that far better than ANYONE here could…..
Wait…didnt Adam Rubin create a controversy with the whole Wally Backman thing a few years ago…
http://gothamnation.wordpress.com/2010/11/03/espns-rubin-plays-games-with-backmans-career/
despite completely forgetting that he wrote this 3 months prior
At the time Backman was introduced as Cyclones manager back on Nov. 17 2009, Mets executive VP Dave Howard willingly acknowledged a “significant clause” was placed in Backman’s contract allowing for his termination if he had any noteworthy slip-up.
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/7908/in-depth-wally-will-make-too-much-sense
“Part of the discussion was, ‘Hey, Wally, we’re giving you a shot, but you have to understand that if there’s any hiccup along the way, we would have the right to terminate the relationship,’” Howard acknowledged at the press conference. “He understood that. He was more than happy with that because he’s confident there are not going to be any issues.”
So in August, Rubin reports that everything is fine…but if the org has problems with Wally, they have a clause to release him…..
3 months later…Rubin discovers an incident he cant talk about involving Backman….
Wally Backman is promoted to AA Binghamton in 2011
Wally Backman has the chance to leave and go to the Nats with Davey….Davey tells him to stay as he would have a better chance of becoming head manager in NY…Wally stays….
Wally gets promoted to AAA Buffalo in 2012
Everything about Wally’s path suggests he is a candidate….
But Adam ( Mr. I know a secret about Wally but I cant tell you ) Rubin has Wally completely wiped out as a candidate….
LMAO ok
Rubin didn’t wipe him out, he just said 2 other guys presently have a better chance.
Again, there is so much behind the scenes stuff we’ll never see.
Hi Metsie,
Weren’t there also issues with the way Teufel coached third base? There were many times when he seemed indecisive and if I’m correct, there was once when a Met runner was gunned down at the plate and being criticized for ignoring the third base coach’s instructions to hold up – until the replay showed that Teufel was not only out of position where he could not be seen by the base runner (was not down the line far enough) but that the runner was almost 1/3 home when Tim gave the stop sign – which was too late even if he was in the right position for the runner to see.
Yeah there were one or two incidents like that…
The Teufel Backman feud (not real on thier part just thier fans) goes back to 86…
People used to cringe when Teuf was in the lineup over Backman….
My guess is the only reason why Donal like Teufel is because Bay like Backman and it is easy to start a fight if you have that opinion….
Or I just think Teufel is more qualified. And while I actually do like Backman, people seem more enamored with getting some low rent Lou Pinella than getting the best guy for the team.
Nostalgia and spectacle are getting more attention than demonstrated competence.
There was one incident where he seemed indecisive to send someone home and the runner in question was tagged out.
Other than that, apparently, he is well regarded for someone so relatively new to the bigs.
But, don’t pretend there aren’t questions about how Backman managed his teams. Or are we ignoring how Buffalo finished last year?
All I know is that I have went to a few Bisons games down here in Charlotte and sit with Mets fans while all of us in unison would say what in the hell is Backman doing. To my surprise he hasn’t been ejected or acted like a clown in any of them. Just very questionable baseball decisions.
my big fear with him from what I have heard is that he will take the Jerry absurd level of sac bunting and ramp it up to a whole nother level, and I hated that. Terry has some of the disease too.
It has been a while since the Mets had a good strategic in-game manager, so it would be nice to see one of them, not just a “gristley” fire and brimstone guy.
I like Earl Weaver’s philosophy about in game management: as little of it as possible.
anything other than the ‘erry model of OOGYing every AB and slavish devotion to L/R handedness. and skip the sac bunts in the first inning please.
Yeah, it was strange bunting. He called for I believe Satin to bunt in like the 3rd or 4th inning with a runner on 2nd and 0 outs. It was something ridiculous. Then the pitching changes? Man oh man, I have heard of going with your gut but he must have had gas those few games.
One game I saw in Brooklyn a few years ago had Wally ejected between innings. And there wasn’t even a controversial play or anything.
End of the year? I’ll be surprised if Collins isnt shown the door during the season. First real rough patch they go through and he’s done, especially if its anything like it was last July.
I am wondering if Collins contract will become an issue this season. Though for my part I define the issue as his contract situation impeding him in doing his job. I don’t think I am seeing that yet. At least not in this case. Now let the team get into a bad stretch and find themselves say 10 games under .500 and reports about if Collins job is in jeopardy and then we should see if indeed it becomes an issue.
It’s not going to be the same issue it was with Manuel for two reasons….
1 – There are no real veterans left to have the balls to give him problems due to the fact thier contract is longer than his…
2 – He is not as hated by the fanbase or media the way Manuel was.
But it could all come down on him if they get off to a 5-13 start (Like Manuel did) or they find themselves out of it come July…..
Then the press will have stories to write and be focused on next year…..Because we shifted our focus to next year as well.
Lets say a team like the Rangers is 40-48 at AS break and fire Ron Washingon AFTER they obtain Santon and are looking to regroup 2nd half. They ask the Mets about availability of Wally. Meanwhile the mets are 14 games out of firstand 8 gamrs out of 2nd WC. What gives?
Teams typically do not hire inseason managers from other organizations especially those with no major league managerial experience. If Washington is fired, watch for Texas to name someone within the organization or an ex manager who is broadcasting.
….as interim then ask Mets for permission to talk to Wally Backman.
Yes Bay thats the usual way to go…The Interim will finish out the season and they will spend the offseason to look at candidates cause by then they will know who else got fired they could look at as well.
By the time the offseason hits Backman may not BE available as they could have decided by then not to renew Collins.
If Backman is going to manage for anyone this year more than likely it will be us and not until September, after the MiL season is over and he can come up with his kids.
I sure hope so Metsie,
If that were ever to happen, for me personally that would be the best Mets news I’ve heard in ages. That would be one thing for me to help ease the tremendous anger i’ve had towards the team since the hired the current GM. It’s been a horror and hiring Backman would kind of bring me back a bit.
What bothers me Bay is that it would have been better to bring Backman up WITH the kids not after the fact.
If he had come up with Kirk, Valde, Harvey and Wheeler he would have come up with HIS GUYS who would add some energy and loyalty to the Manager that might carry over the same way it did for Davey when he came up.
He may still have it from guys like Davis and Murphy and at some point Flores….
And Harvey as well…
But it won’t be as effective if all that life got injected at once to go along with Backman’s stimulus.
And the biggest problem with them hiring Backman is I don’t see him being the good soldier Sandy wants like Collins has been.
So I’m not entirely sure they would even do that.
My initial apprehension regarding giving Backman the managers position in 2011 have been addressed….
He now has the experience of managing in all the levels and has cultivated a few guys who will go through walls for him like Nails did for Davey.
SO what my objection to him in 2011 was has been fixed.
David Dordoff recently wrote he did not know if Wally and Alderson could coexist at the ML level. Yes Wally won’t be as good or a good solider to Sandy’s middle manager philosophy as Collins is. If Wally is NOT the next manager of the Mets I will be a bigger Sandy Alderson hater than anybody. Wally with his gutsy hard ball and not money ball philosohy is the way to go.
About Ron Wahington he has both Met’s and A’s roots. Money ball roots too per Wikipedia. Alserson may grab him in mid season if he is fired. That is my definite concern.
I forgot to say: Ron Washington another Art Howe ? ( from the A’s organization via Texas).
Yep it is a definite concern Hotstreak….
Sandy believes the Manager is just there to enact the philosophies and directives of the Front Office…
He is more like a floor manager than a leader.
Don’t get me wrong Collins gets his 5 minutes to say what he thinks but regardless of what he thinks when the decision is made Sandy expects him to salute and say YES SIR and do what he is told.
Backman may be capable of doing that or as I expect he will ignore them (as any manager should) and pass or fail based on his own decisions. I would rather get fired knowing I did what I believe was the best job possible as opposed to lose and do the wrong thing, get fired ANYWAY all because I was just following orders I didn’t believe were right.
Can Backman do that without creating a cntroversy in the Media…I think he can and I also think if he gets the job within the next year or two he will outlive Sandy here, and do what he needs to do without hinderance from on High..
The concern is he already has his man here as the Bench coach….
Geren is the guy who will at least get the interim title if they throw Terry on the sword.
I personally think Collins is going to get moved someplace else in the organization as a means of buying more time. They will say they decided they needed to make a change and the old “Can’t fire the team so fire the manager” excuse will come into play.
Thats where Backman gets his shot…
Metsie your last two posts are very valid. Lets hope that is the way it works out. We need these kids to play with “passion to win”. I still can picture Murphy being maybe not MVP of the season but MVP in the WS.
I have said it before about Murphy but if you just look at what he does on the field you are probably missing what is a much greater impact in the lockeroom and the bench.
When he blew out his second knee he said something to the affect of “I’m am POed that I won’t be able to go to war with my team”
Thats the kind of thing the 86ers would say!
they can slap a C in Wright’s jersey but I definitly feel if we don’t trade Murphy he is the next future leader on this team. All he needs is the Veteran status he will get from his first foray into FA and time. If he leaves someone else will benefit from it.
You need Warriors like in the lockeroom and in the dugout…If we had one or two in 2007 and 2008 things go very differently in the end….
Yes Metsie: Speaking as with Murphy as I recently posted He said Wally is “Special and can do anything”. Murphy himself is special because in the fox hole he would anything to fight besides you also. We need more grit and grind. Murphy is a born leader and not a manufactured one.
Hi Hotstreak,
Regarding that connection, I’m surprised no one else has mentioned how Ron Washington and Jerry Manual also resemble each other, especially with those dark rimmed glasses each wears.
Spooky, to say the least.
Now it just hit me when Murphy said to me “Wally is special, he can do anything.”
Well, obviously he’s very passionate with protecting his players,” Uggla said. “I’ll tell you what, if you play for Wally Backman, you’re going to be able to run through a brick wall, because we have the same emotions toward him as he has toward us. I mean, I would have run through a brick wall for him. Everybody is playing hard — I think playing above their ability — when they play for a guy like that.
Having your players run thru brick walls is something “special” “Yes he can do anything.”
Finally someone (me) bought up Dan Uggla’s famous quote and endorsement of Wally.
Hi Joey D.
How can a guy named Washington be a gang_ster?
Seriously Jon Daniels has set up Ron Washington to fail.
Sound familar?
Yes the resemblance is very much there. I noticed it myself.
You forgot a line he ALSO SAID…
Which was that it’ll be an issue if the media makes it one.
Well, looks like they are…no big deal at all. They have every right to hold off on resigning him. They are the ones who make that decision and might very well have wanted to make Wally the manager or even Geren in ’14 all along.
It’s a issue cause the media and bloggers make it one. Sandy and Terry don’t seem to care. It’s baseball time, contracts can wait until the end of the season if they’re earned during the season.
Yet, I also remember the way the team played the first half of both the past two seasons despite the deficiencies of this front office. How much of that had to do with the manner in which Terry handled his players? The last half of the past two seasons indeed reflected a team that felt kicked in the teeth and knew the front office had no faith it in – so nobody – not even old Casey – could have motivated them.
But didn´t the “kicking” only start in the 2nd half ? So while I like Terry Collins, I don´t see any relation between him & the team´s performance in the 2nd half.
The team performed pretty well during the first half of both 2011 and 2012.Maybe in parts because Collins did a good job. However, Collins also wasn´t able to prevent the 2nd half collapses in both seasons.
In July 2011, the front office dumped K-Rod at the All Star Break and traded Beltran a couple of weeks later. That obviously was a “kick in the teeth” to the team – even though it had to be done (in K-Rod´s case to help out the financially challenged owners, in Beltran´s case for the longterm good of the franchise talent-wise).
In 2012, the front office first resisted promoting Matt Harvey a lot earlier over a group of non-qualified SP (such as Schwinden / Hefner / Batista) filling in for Pelfrey and then didn´t trade for immediate rotation help to replace Dillon Gee when he was lost for the season at the All Star Break or breaking down Johan Santana. Again, in each case I don´t think that trading, say Jenry Mejia and Matt Den Dekker for Paul Maholm in July, would have made too much sense, considering where the Mets were in the standings and some obvious structural deficiencies that were bound to catch up sooner than later.
2 things:
1 – their best reliever and position player were traded in the 1st half
2 – they did not add in talent for that year.
those 2 things = kicking in the teeth..
for example had the mets traded pagan for ramirez in 2011, it tells the team they are trying to win in 2011 and they believe in the team.
by not trading for ANY relief help, it tells the team, it is not worth the risk, b/c ownership doesnt think bringing in talent is going to make a difference.
by then becoming SELLERS, it confirmed this lack of confidence, despite what Alderson ( aka Mr. I have to sell tickets too ) says
Beltran wasn’t traded in the first half anyway but I think we have already been here and done that with this discussion.
Yes u are correct, Beltran was traded 2 weeks after the 1st half.
Remind me of what reliever we traded for when our bullpen was our greatest weakness?
o thats right…we didnt trade for one…
I still blame omar for that 2 years in a row.
Why would the team pay an exorbitant price for an extremely small benefit? Great relievers are worth an extra two or three wins each year, any player acquired would give less than half a season maybe ~30 innings, it would be the height of stupidity for a team in the Mets position to give up anything more than organizational fodder for a reliever and good relievers aren’t available for organizational fodder.
Hi DrD.
Just wanted to be fair regarding TC in that context of the team playing together as a unit. That remark about being kicked in the teeth made in September was still referring to the clubhouse mood about what didn’t transpire back in July. And as mentioned, not even old Casey could have motivated the club these past two seasons after what was done to them each July.
What was done this July Joey? Not trade away talent and tell them to go win?
What happened? NOTHING like losing two of your starting rotation and doing NOTHING to replace it! They delayed Harvey and extended the loosing streak by 5 more days when if they had brought him up right away they couldhave stopped the slide and continued to compete the rest of the season!
By the time Harvey got here they were pretty much out of it!
What a kick in the teeth.
Many of the Players thought so!
What constitutes many?
Wow a History teach who has not grasped the concept of a Dictionary….
No wonder our education system is going to hell in a hand basket!
Yup, and USING your TAX money TO DO it. (Disclaimer, I have no idea why I am capitalizing words but evidently it is to try and help me win a contest that doesn’t exist.)
” That remark about being kicked in the teeth made in September was still referring to the clubhouse mood about what didn’t transpire back in July. And as mentioned, not even old Casey could have motivated the club these past two seasons after what was done to them each July.”
Not trade them all away for better players?
If they mailed it in like you claim, they should have all been cut.
I agree. They did not trade away any of the players doing the job (not even hairston). And they brought in Harvey and Edgin to fill holes.
Not sure what they expected to happen. trade for josh Hamilton or Grienke?
if anything, Sandy gave them some reinforcements from the future, and a vote of confidence.
not like the Phils, where the FO gave up, folded the tent, and kicked them in the balls and the teeth having a fire sale. of course, they then were the best team in the NL over the last few months of the season, kind of making the logic not work!
Exactly Van! The Phillies unloaded and what did the Phillies do. They went on a run and got back into the WC race as did the Brewers after trading Grienke. What did our non established Major Leaguers do? They mailed it in. They proved the GM right. They weren’t worth adding to because they have no pride in themselves. Young players fighting for their careers or at least you would think decided to pout and give up on their Manager, GM, Owner and fans. The shame of it all is that we have some fans making excuses for those players that embarrassed themselves and the organization. The Phillies and Brewers did just the opposite.
The Phils unloaded Joe Blanton, who was 8-9 with an ERA around 4.5
they traded Shane Victorino was hitting .265
they traded Jim Thome…who was doing nothing for them….
and they traded Hunter Pence, who was having a good year…but his production was easily replaced by Ryan Howard and Chase Utley…
it sounds like they were getting rid of mostly dead weight…..
No where near the same thing as our situation.
I AGREE! Lets start with the first guy to mail it in….
CUT SANDY!
Then maybe the players will not take the lead from thier GM and try all season long!
Here is the problem with a guy like Collins….
His Strength is he is a guy who is always UP! The guy has the energy of hypoglycemic kid in a candy store!
The problem is that usually has an immediate and QUICK affect on the team that as time goes on slowly erodes as they get used to the energy and start ignoring it as it is the new NORMAL.
If a guy like Collins had a team that was poised to win when he first arrived he might be able to sustain the energy injection to the team due to the success. After the winning the CONFIDENCE would take over and keep the energy high.
My fear with Collins is that with all his energy he has a plodding FO who has a tendency to SAP the energy from the team every July and Offseason.
Sandy is the Valium to Collin’s speed and if they don’t start winning soon all that energy he shows will become more ANNOYING than INSPIRING and they will simply tune him out!
Thats the worry with Collins…
I’m sure Collins won’t be coming back. If he were he would have gotten an extension by now, Whatever they end up doing I hope they retain him in the organization is some form and don’t fire him outright. he’s done good by the team in my opinion and deserves a fair shake.
How can you have a fall guy when there is no expectations, once again making something out of nothing.
I have no problem with him managing out his contract. Why the need to give managers extensions? Players seem to play out their contracts and, often, have their best years. While I will grant a manager is at the mercy of the players he has to a large degree, how he prepares them is telling on the job he does.
And as was pointed out, Dodger managers went decades on 1 year contracts.
Plus, everyone wants Backman but there is no guarantee he will be a stark raving success. His minor league managerial record is iffy. As for him making it a problem, he was not forced into taking the job in AAA. The true reason why Backman is back is because no team offered him a major league job. In other words, Wally isnt exactly in high demand. He might end up being a widely successful major league manager, but, thus far, his performance evidently hasnt turned too many heads.
In a city that made an issue of Valdespin wearing a Marlins hat did they really think something like this would NOT become an issue?
Indulge me for a second – but isn’t creating a lame duck situation with Terry all part of the plan?
Think about it. The team could really suck this year. They still have no outfield and the bullpen is filled with items from the two dollar shop.
If the team tanks – and chances are that it will – what better way for Sandy to take the spotlight off himself then to fire Terry?
Sandy is the one who gutted the team – as per Fred’s (and Buddy’s) orders. Sandy has a bit of a honeymoon period right now because it’s the beginning of Spring Training and everyone’s record is 0 – 0.
But, after the season begins and if the team goes into a tailspin because they are simply not good enough to compete – fans and the media are going to be calling for a scalp. And even though Terry had nothing to do with the configuration of the team – he will be blamed. And Sandy will have his sacrificial lamb.
Then Sandy can officially state that everything about the club is focused on 2014.
It’s a good position for Sandy to be in – a lame duck manager and a crappy team.
I even said it at the time they were deciding between him and Backman that whoever they hired was a temp sacrificial lamb that was going to be under fire and under pressure after three years of rebilding (and sucking) and made the scapegoat to continue the rebuild by buying them another year or two….
TL, from everything I have seen and heard from Sandy, I honestly don’t think he cares about having a fall guy to protect him or hiding. because he has no interest in getting an extension, or trying to be here long term.
I also figured when he came on that terry was part of the transition plan, and very likely to move back into an org development role after his contract expired, and the way this is playing out supports it.
so in 2014, the “young buck” manager will come in to grow up with the team, and Sandy will hand over a lot of the public duties to his successor (J.P.?) and take more of a COO/consultant role (which IMO is what he has been all along) as a sort of transition of power.
Van – all good points.
However, the press will be calling for a scalp. And maybe it’s Freddie who throws Terry under the bus – not Sandy. Managers are, in fact, fired by the ownership anyway.
Sandy has saved Fred 60 million dollars (the resulting lack of attendence is a nother matter) – he will leave when he wants to leave.
I don’t think it was ever the long term plan to have SA here longer that the one contract. So making the comparison between the two and how he’ll feel to be a ‘lame duck’ probably isn’t relevant. I’m still betting SA hands over the reigns and goes back to MLB when this gig ends. Or maybe even retirement. Politicians, judges and sports executives….these might be the only folks who actually want to work past their mid 60s. If I had their money, I’d long since have been retired.
As far as Terry, I also believe even if he’s not the manager past this season, he’ll still have a job in the organization.
bingo all around.
I wonder what would you say SRT if the man is extended for a couple of more years . The man has been awful as a GM, has demonstrated to be a sarcastic SOB, and not as smart as people pegged him to be… I am not sure what’s been worse, having the wilpons as owners of this team, or having this FO put in charge of the organization… SMH
” has demonstrated to be a sarcastic SOB” Hey leave me out of this.
I find that to be one of his more endearing traits.
Thank you!
Oh you mean Sandy.
Not looking at your last comments as we already been there done that, if they do extend him to me it will be very bad news. What it will mean is that IMO that the Mets are still not out of the woods financially and they still need someone as an overseer.
the problem is, what they really need is to bump Sandy upstairs, and officially hire a dynamic GM to take care of all the roster type GM duties.
but that means replacing Jeffy, since COO is IMO the job that Sandy is really doing, he just can’t have the title.
for all any of us know, all of that part of the job (player/roster) could be getting done by JP and Ricco already, with Sandy just being the front man.
Honestly, why would we think that Sandy even wants that? To me only way he does that is if he is in a position like Nolan and owns part of the club. At this point, I can’t think Sandy is really doing this for the money and title.
oh, not sure he would, but from a practical standpoint, if he wants to stick around that is the only way it would make sense.
I’ll let you know if/when that happens. But I wouldn’t bet on it.
I say extend Collins, and if necessary give him a new job next year ala Omar. Not comfortable with Collin’s in game strategy so far. If you bump SA upstairs, I don’t care how dynamic a GM you hire is, if he has to get SA approval to spend, then nothing will change.
“I think having a lame duck manager in this town is a big mistake”
This is where Sandy’s lack of experience in a Big Market is showing….
He doesn’t seem to get the fact that NYers are not patient people….
They are not for the most part into HOPE they are into RESUME and RESULTS!
And it is a town that has a Shark type Media that the second it smells even a slight hint that blood is in the Water it attacks and attacks viciously!
Espescially with a team that is not predicted to have a lot of good storylines to write about!
If they lose early and often then they will get tired of writing “Well the Lost again” and start on looking for someone to blame for it and call for a head…
Perhaps this is WHY Sandy hasnt extended Collins and he DOES get it…I can’t say….
Perhaps he knows SOMEONE’s head will be on the block before the season is out and leaving Terry as a Lame duck gives him an easy sacrificial offerring to keep on doing whatever it is that gets Collins fired!
Having Collins as a lame duck is the perfect cover for Alderson who will have his built-in scapegoat after a 90+ loss season. In that regard Alderson is a genius, albeit an evil genius.
Oh boo-hoo. These managers and GMs are being paid millions of dollars and they can’t wait out the end of their contracts till they learn what their next fate will be? Being a “lame duck” anything is only a real problem if someone lets it be.
The Mets made a big mistake of extending Omar before his initial contract was up. And they paid a big price for that. And it’s not just the Mets. The Nats were right in not picking up Riggleman’s option before the season ended and letting him walk mid-season.
And I don’t think Sandy will mind it when he is in his last year and isn’t picked up before the end of that year. If he does whine about it, well than that’s too bad for him.
I think it’s generally smart business not to pick up these options or give extensions before the time on the previous contract is up. Yes there are exceptions — such as extending a popular and productive home grown players such as Wright. But otherwise, it’s better business to be prudent. Especially since a lot of the problems with the Mets recently have been due to the burden of non-performing contracts.
Only reason you extend a manager or FO person before their contract is up is if you are actually afraid they might leave.
Or to help him maintain discipline on a team who needs it instead of giving the impression he might be gone anyway why should I care about what he says I will be here after he is gone!
Then fire him if he does that.
Fire WHo? Your 150 MillionDollar Veteran who thinks he doesn’t have to listen to his Manager because he is going to outlive him on the team?
The manager that can’t reach his players.
Your assuming his players are reachable?
Can you name me a manager that can get Duda to run faster or Pelfrey to throw strikes?
How about a manager that can get Andre torres to hit better than Mendoza?
and how does any of that change if you give the manager another 3 years on their deal?
the mets are also not a team with guys that think they are tenured in to a job even if they stop playing hard.
Who said extending him changes that? Certainly not me….
I gave the only two reason NOT to have a manager in his Lame Duck season…
1) something to do with Veterans needing to play better and/or have a problem doing what they shouldbe doing and need to be managed to get them to do it….
2) Avoiding the Media pressure everytime the team loses 3 games in a row as maybe the thing that gets the Manager canned and distracting the team in the proccess….
Nothing about his contract can make a non-performer perform or make his team hit better than they normally would if he was not a lame duck….
Maybe if they really like him they will fight for him in his lame duck year but if thats the case then they should have done it when he was NOT a lame duck because if they HAD he would have gotten his extention already!
Only way to maintain that if it is the case is to sign the Manager one year deal at a time….
LMAO
True. And then that person better have a solid track record for success and be genuinely invaluable. That does not apply to Collins, IMO.
The thing is, I don’t think it really bothers Collins that he is a lame duck this year. And if any of the players take advantage of that status and “misbehave” well than shame on them.
I think Collins is also pretty confident that a spot for him in the organization is safe regardless of how the team performs and his ultimate fate as manager.
Yup, agreed. And he does appear to have a good feel for working with and developing prospects. That may be his true and best talent.
I can see him taking Depodesta’s spot if he moves on.
Sounds good, but where would DePodesta go? I’m not sure he’d be right as Mets GM.
so what about JP ?
is he good enough to be a GM for the Mets ?
What do you think?
What do you think ?
Clearly JP is not good enough to be Mets GM! What are his qualifications? Maybe once his catching career is over, we’ll see. We do know catchers generally make good field generals, so maybe there is hope. He does seem to have learned how to catch Dickey pretty quickly, so he’s a fast learner at least!
I was talking about jp ricciardi
Oh … that JP! So what do you feel about him?
If he does whine about it, well than that’s too bad for him.
I should add that the probability of Sandy “whining” about anything is probably nil. That’s just not his nature. He couldn’t be more pragmatic. I know this is why some dislike him, but I think he’s the right person for the Mets at this time.
Yeah, I am pretty sure at this point in his career if Sandy gets too upset he just walks away laughing.
Yeah because he CARES so much about Winning…..
No, because he’s too secure with himself on a professional, financial, and personal level that in the grand scheme of his life it won’t matter much.
I doubt he’d laugh if they failed to extend him and he wanted it, but he’s not going to lose sleep over it either.
Right he doesn’t NEED to win so doesn’t care if he does or not!
He is already a success so no need to repeat it as far as he is concerned….
Nope. He doesn’t NEED to win but he DOES CARE if he does win because he is a professional who takes his job seriously and takes pride in the things he accomplishes.
If he really cared he would show it!
He does but some choose to simply not see it!
Did not read the comments. Is it not good to have players, or managers in a contract year to get them to step up?
How can one say you cannot have a lame duck manager in NY. How would you never have a manager in the last year of a contract?
I have to wonder, if so many blame player performance on performing better in a contract year why doesn’t that apply to managers and FO?
Because Managers and GM can’t hit catch throw the ball in a game….
They have to rely on the players to do that….
I can agree that the GM should be judged on how well the team performs because he PICKED the players on it….
The Manager doesn’t get to pick his roster he might get a word in on who he wants but that doesn’t mean he gets it.
Can’t blame the cook for the bad ingrediaents you gave him to cook with.
Now if you have a team like Willie had you might be able to build a case there….
So you are saying a manager shouldn’t be motivated to do a better job in a contract year but a player should?
No I’m saying no matter how MOTIVATED he may be he can’t polish a turd!
Give Bobby flay Dog Turd, Cow Dung and Fish Entrails and as motivated as he is to do a good job the results will be less than Satisfying!
I did also show an example of where what your saying MIGHT apply didn’t I?
But you glossed over that didn’t you?
so if the manager has no impact, and can’t do better, what possible difference will it make if he is a lame duck or not?
I see you like to ask the same question twice….
Your answer was posted above but I’ll repeat it here since you wanted an answer so badly you couldn’t wait for it the FIRST time you asked…
Who said extending him changes that? Certainly not me….
I gave the only two reason NOT to have a manager in his Lame Duck season…
1) something to do with Veterans needing to play better and/or have a problem doing what they shouldbe doing and need to be managed to get them to do it….
2) Avoiding the Media pressure everytime the team loses 3 games in a row as maybe the thing that gets the Manager canned and distracting the team in the proccess….
Nothing about his contract can make a non-performer perform or make his team hit better than they normally would if he was not a lame duck….
Maybe if they really like him they will fight for him in his lame duck year but if thats the case then they should have done it when he was NOT a lame duck because if they HAD he would have gotten his extention already!
Only way to maintain that if it is the case is to sign the Manager one year deal at a time….
Hey TRS did you win THIS argument too?
Your Silence here is deafening…..
as a bystander, I would say for sure he did, because your argument made absolutely no sense.
So you think Dog Poop Cow Poop and fish entrails makes a tasty dinner….
To each his own I guess!
YES BEcAUse I USed MORE RandoM CapITALIsatioN THAn YoU.
Keep on going dude PLEASE! You falling right into my trap!
YOu’RE TraP? YouR WeB OF deCeit? HOW dare YOU!
Man, I don’t know how you do that and not get frustrated with yourself. Anyway, at this point Metsie you are just a parody of yourself and 99% of the readers here would agree.
Commentary guideline TRS….Commentary Guidelines!
Keep on going!
I am saving it all!
So are you saying Metsie you are trying to “bait me” into getting my self banned? Good luck with that.
Ahhh so you think you are ABOVE the law and untouchable?
GOOD!
That works for me!
Remember that here that would be a suicide mission for you because you are baiting me right? I mean your trap comment would look awful suspicious. Lol. Besides I would actually have to stop laughing at you long enough to insult you before being banned.
You are correct about one thing though….
I am very different from 99% o the posters here..
I actually can PROVE what it is I say!
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5oCUR11M24mekZubnc4ZUFCUU0/edit?usp=sharing
I notice a distinct lack of comment about the link I provided….
I wonder if thats as close to admitting you were wrong and I was right as you will ever get….
I think they’re all too busy laughing.
It’s hilarious that anyone would try to correlate RBIs with Runs Scored. One is a subset of the other. Trying to correlate a subset to the parent group is patently pointless. It’s like trying to correlate the number of traffic fatalities to the number of deaths every year.
No more rediculous that correlating something that can’t CAUSE an RS is…
An RBI is not a subset of RS….It is a CAUSE of RS!
Without doing what it takes to get an RS no RBI is recorded!
But you guys keep ignoring the BEST correlator to RS!
Actually Metro it’s even more absurd than that. He’s saying there is a correlation between cars and car related fatalities. Yup.
Yes, an RBI is a subset of RS. Every RBI is a RS.
RBI = RS automatically and 100% of the time. It is a subset of RS.
The very idea that someone is trying to correlate a subset to the parent group is hilariously funny.
No one would do it. Only you.
TRS, I don’t know whether to laugh or feel pity!
Don’t you think my stat is even better? I did tons of research and found a 100% correlation between runs/ game and runs scored. I am amazing!
LOL, TRS, too funny. You should create a scatter chart for your amazing find! I have a suspicion it would look just like a pencil straight line!
Actually NO I didn’t bait you….I was talking baseball and you moved onto TYPING so I guess your are the one who is actually BAITING aren’t you?
My statement had baseball involved your about how I stated my opinion!
So YES rememeber baiting is a cause for being banned!
No R/gh is counting RS…RBI are not RS….
They are awarded to two seperate players…
But continue to think they are the same thing…..
Cause if they were Wrights RS total would be sky high and would include all his RBI as well if they were actually the same!
No no RS is awarded to the player who get an RBI!
And just because every RS is an OB every stranded runner is too and you have yet to show how an OB can score itself….
I can keep going too folks!
I wil insist just as hard as you…
And you will keep making the dumb statement that an RBI is the same as an RS when it’s not it’s just thre CAUSE of it….
Not all RS’ get an RBI do they? SO if they were the same and RBI would be awarded EVERYTIME an RS is made…
Is that what you two think happens?
Ok, metsie, you win. The earth is flat.
No your on the side that seems o think the Earth is flat and THINKS it is smart because more ignorant people thought columbus was wrong!
So you MUST be right!
4-5 people have told you over the last 2 days how and why it is patently ludicrous to try to “correlate” RBIs with RS. It’s a useless exercise. But it won’t sink in. So go ahead, have the last say just for the sake of saying you’re right. The emperor has no clothes. The only one who can’t see that is the emperor.
Yeah every told Columbus the world was flat too so he must have been wrong…
The WHY they gave was wrong…RBI is not the same as RS!
One is awarded to the CAUSE the other is rewarded to the guy the CAUSE drove in!
And in case you missed it…
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5oCUR11M24mekZubnc4ZUFCUU0/edit?usp=sharing
Correlated better!
Probably because mine has CAUSATION your favored metric doesn’t…
You DO know what Causation is right?
Off Topic: Baseball Reference keeping up with the trend.
@AdamRubinESPN
Baseballreference.com’s David Wright page now officially lists his nickname as “Captain America” bit.ly/cj7fo7
https://twitter.com/AdamRubinESPN/status/314423645386715136
Nice. Well deserved.
North Jersey, you haven’t congratulated me!!!!!!!!!!!!
TEAM DOMINICAN REPUBLIC!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol…… Listen, did you tell gary I said hello??? Tell him we miss him in here jajajajajajaja
I congratulated all Dominicans.
metsmerizedonline.com/2013/03/harvey-lights-up-radar-guns-says-he-strives-for-perfection-every-time.html#comment-383106
And yes I told Gary via Twitter later that day that you sent your regards.
Gracias mi hermano. Tell gary that Monday is almost here jajajaja…… Last night I challenge everyone including the desert storm leader, but everyone back out… I would’ve had a blast not seeing a few people here Lol..
Congratulations Alex on the Domincans being champions of the WBC!
In 4 years we will be back and Team USA will kick some ass, instead of Captain America we will have Iron Man which means nobody soft.
Me and my dominican shorty celebrated the game right last night..
bachata…brugal…pastelon…and woke up to some mangu
PR might’ve lost…butI am not complaining
Good job man!
which player where you again?
Joe D.
“I would love to see him get a dose of his own medicine when he enters his own lame duck season and hope the Wilpons leave him flapping in the wind, if only to show him how it can undermine one’s authority and ability to make decisions based on the long term because you are mostly worried about the short term.”
Well, I’d like to see that happen too – but it won’t. And there are over 60 million reasons in saved money that will prevent that.
that would assume Sandy would be in a panic about getting lopped off. Really hard to see him going nuts on panic moves to try and save his job, at the expense of the future of the club. And of course, his “superiors” not being able to figure it out.
This is only an issue because you choose to make it one.