18
2013
Wheeler Has Outside Shot At Rotation Spot
An article by 72MetsFan
Sandy Alderson, who was a guest of Mike Francesa on WFAN, said that if he fails to add another starter for the rotation, that Zack Wheeler will be in a group that will be vying for the fifth spot in the rotation.
“It’s unlikely he starts at the Major League Level,” Alderson said. “But look, hypothetically, let’s say we don’t add anybody between now and Spring Training. We don’t add a starting pitcher. Now, you’re looking at Hefner, Familia, Mejia. You know, Wheeler pops up in that group. That’s not our preferred result by any means.”
I doubt that happens, but I thought it was interesting to hear him say that.
In the unlikely event that Wheeler did make the team out of spring training, he would most certainly become Super Two arbitration eligible.
I can’t see the Wilpons signing off on that.
Original Post 1/16
Anthony DiComo’s latest mailbag column on Mets.com is a particularly good one this week as he tackles many good questions including this one:
I know that Zack Wheeler is untouchable for the most part. But if you were the Mets, wouldn’t you have to entertain the idea of trading Wheeler and a couple of other prospects for Giancarlo Stanton?
If I were the Mets, I would certainly consider trading Wheeler for Stanton — or anyone even close to that echelon of player, for that matter. While Wheeler is a fantastic-looking pitching prospect – ranked No. 1 by MLB.com in the Mets’ organization — he is still just a prospect. He has not proven anything at the game’s highest level, and he is vulnerable to the same types of injuries that derail even the most promising pitchers on an annual basis.
That said, I understand why Alderson has made Wheeler untouchable. The right-hander has risen so rapidly as a prospect that he now carries a certain “mystique,” as one team insider described it last year, making him ultra-valuable for a team in transition. His name alone gives fans something to latch onto, something to look forward to. Same goes for Matt Harvey and, now, catcher Travis d’Arnaud.
Unlike Stanton or any other non-rookie, Wheeler also still has six full years under team control. That’s a factor. The Mets are certainly staking a big chunk of their future on Wheeler, hoping he turns out to be the ace that everyone envisions. They understand the risk involved and are willing to take it.
I’ve never been one for untouchables, especially when a team is as bad as ours currently is. But I agree with holding off on trading Wheeler. Maybe DiComo is right and like most fans I see Wheeler as the poster boy for the Mets resurgence that’s supposed to begin in 2014.
About the Author: Drew Staley
On June 1, 2012 Johan Santana officially became my favorite current Met! I'm a Queens native who grew up in the shadows of Big Shea. I was a huge Ron Darling, Dave Magadan and John Olerud fan. Honored to be a part of such a great site for Mets fans. Ya Gotta Believe!
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Wheeler Nimmo Familar Mazzoni…..done deal!
Throw cechinni and plawecki along with depodesta and richiardi… Done!
Dont ask me what they saw in G Cechinni when they drafted that kid…..they should of drafted another outfielder..
Ya! Then we can be as successful as the Rangers when they had Alex Rodriguez!
Exacly….. Alhough i am sure you rather the pirates like approach we are using, that is paying so much divident right? F I
Losing is losing. It doesn’t matter if you do it cheaply or expensively. Although, doing it cheaply gives you a better opportunity to turn it around quicker.
Losing is losing… Right… doing cheaper hurts less right? What you fail to realize is that spending money on good players give you a better opportunity to come out of that losing funk no? Ask the pirates and the royals, i am sure they’d be able to tell you how that’s been workign out for them…
“doing cheaper hurts less right?”
Didn’t say that. But, from a rational point of view, losing cheaply gives you a better shot at turning it around. At the very least, it gives you more options.
“What you fail to realize is that spending money on good players give you a better opportunity to come out of that losing funk no?”
No, I’m 2 chapters ahead of you. Do keep up.
Losing cheaply generally means you have fewer anchor contracts and entrenched under achievers filling roster spots. So, if there is money available, you can go out and spend if there are players who can turn you around out there.
But, losing expensively, on the other hand, usually involves having a lot of older, more expensive, under performing guys on big money deals cemented into their roster spots.
You might be the only person I know that would begrudge the Mets Giancarlo Stanton and define getting him as an act of losing.
That is not what I said. Again, I have called Stanton a legitimate game changer.
I even compared him to the best player of his respective generation.
But, what good is having a guy like Stanton if you have to give away so many major pieces to get him?
I have no doubt he could hit 35 HR as a Met. He’s a perennial All Star.
But what good does it do if the pitching staff turn around and gives back every run he creates? If there is no one on base for all his home runs?
My problem is not with Stanton. My problem is I don’t think we’re deep enough to trade for him and take advantage of all he’d give us.
That’s why I said the following:
“I love Stanton but I think it’s the wrong time for the Mets to pull off that trade. If I thought they would magically start spending again then maybe. However, trading 5 of our top prospects for Stanton, what do they fill the rest of our holes with?”
I dont think it’s ever a wrong time to add a game changer, make that a franchise changer, to an organization.
Especially if all it costs are prospects, and especially if the player in question has proven to be a dominating MVP caliber force at the major league level on a Hall of fame track.
Stanton just turned 23 and he instantly becomes the best player in the entire organization by 100 furlongs.
It won’t ever happen, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t.
Again, I am torn. I would love to have that rock to build around but who fills the rest of the holes created by trading him if the Mets aren’t going to spend money in FA to fill them? We aren’t talking about just 5 prospects, based on what is being rumored it’s your top 5 or as close as possible.
So are you willing to trade Harvey, Wheeler +++?
Who takes their spot? What good is Stanton if Collin and Heffer are your 3 and 4 SP?
“I dont think it’s ever a wrong time to add a game changer, make that a franchise changer, to an organization. ”
Ya, Tom Hicks thought the same thing.
“Stanton just turned 23 and he instantly becomes the best player in the entire organization by 100 furlongs. ”
Which, to me, is a huge red flag.
Look at what the Mets got for Dickey. Look at what the D’Backs almost got for Upton. Stanton is head and shoulders above them in terms of value to an organization.
The Marlins are going to get a huge haul for him. And he’ll be worth it. The problem is, the Mets can’t afford it.
Right, you are talking about a package that blows the Santana package out of the water and then shoots it into tiny pieces. At least then the Mets were in that position. Now? No chance.
Right, you are talking about a package that blows the Santana package out of the water and then shoots it into tiny pieces. At least then the Mets were in that position. Now? No chance.
Isn’t hindsight wonderful? Before we made the Santana deal it was said we didn’t have what it takes. After the deal we apparently gutted the system. Today we say those same exact things about Stanton. LOL Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
The Santana deal also had another thing going for us, the only 2 other teams that could pay him what he wanted both dropped out.
Then we could change our name to the Marlins
I too hope this kid becomes a stud along with harvey for us for years to come.. However, if a package present itself with him as the front man to land us Mike Stanton, i personally pick him up and drive him to miami.
If Miami calls today and offers Stanton straight up for Wheeler. Pretty sure, SA says “yes” in an instant.
However, in all likelihood, Miami will also want to have Flores, Nimmo, Mejia and Syndergaard in that package too – at which point it makes little sense again, considering where the Mets are today.
Heck, the asking price for Justin Upton, a lesser and more expensive player than Giancarlo, is probably Wheeler + two quality young players / prospects at this point.
So, yes, a lot depends on Harvey & Wheeler & D´Arnaud, indeed. If the Mets want to contend in 2014 and 2015, two of these three need to become high impact major leaguers (besides filling out the roster adequately).
Dooby, and if they don’t become high impact players then what?? Wait for nimmo and cecchinni to somehow save the day???
If Wheeler, Harvey and D’ Arnaud don’t deliver, then indeec we’re looking at 2015 or 2016 instead of 2014 in hopes that Syndergaard, Fulmer, Tapia, Nimmo, Cecchini and others do better.
Of course, the upside of that approach vs a potential ” Worst Team money could buy” / 2012 Miami Marlins or 2012 LA Angels approach is that due to the low payroll you can still scrap the ” build from within idea” and start spending big on a quick fix winner yet again.
That’s basically what happened when ” Generation K ” flopped in the mid 90s.
Instead of trying to build from within under McIlvaine, Steve Phillips took over and started adding talent by trading prospects ( such as AJ Burnett, Preston Wilson or Octavio Dotel among others) to add Leiter & Piazza, plus eventually Hampton via trade, signed Robin Ventura and later Todd Zeile and – gulp Kevin Appier – as a free agents and spent big to keep the veterans he wanted to keep in most cases.
So, the fallback for a large market team when a rebuilding with youth doesn’t work is always a 180 degree turnaround for the quick fix. Or another wave of kids.
“If Wheeler, Harvey and D’ Arnaud don’t deliver…”
Any year for HOPE that doesn’t have 202 as the first three numbers in it is a foolish dream.
Sorry Dooby I’ll give you credit for your optimism but if those guys flop it’s game over for a lot of people….
1 – Sandy sure to be fired
2 – Attendance will drop so low they will have to pay people to come and/or give away tickets to charity just to fill seats
3 – Wright gets traded (no money to pay him)
4 – Davis, Niese, Gee, Tejada, Murphy, gets traded because ARb goes to high to afford them too
If those three don’t deliver this team is royally screwed because we put ALL of our eggs in the Kiddy basket, over relied on UNPROVEN YOUTH and HOPE that turned out to be UN-RELIABLE. and didn’t bother to go after the few players who could help us get by with those kids early struggles or to mentor those kids so they might not have missed what it was they were PROJECTED to deliver…
And the fact we let TRUE MLB performers go to get two of the three shows the folly of such thinking along those lines…
Not a single person who is unhappy with how Sandy has played this will tell you having kids is NOT worth having….What they WILL say is that there is a right and wrong way and timing to do that.
If you want to rebuild you HAVE to do it via the draft and then once your close to having a drafted core only THEN can you go and trade the MLB players you have drafted kids to replace them with and go get more kids to do the same with someone else when they are ready.
The way it has been done here is as short sighted as spending to buy a team….
Only difference is we spent MLB PERFORMERS instead of money and Picks to get those kids.
And now that we have done it if the guys we got fail this franchise is screwed for more than just the 3 years you all think Omar and his spending hurt this franchise…
Based on what the guys at MLBN were hearing, take your top 5 prospects and hope that is enough to get him. So with the Mets that’s going to be more than just prospects. You most likely are looking at Harvey, Wheeler, Flores….
Stanton would be one of the few you would think of trading Wheeler for at this time. It would have to be a young and sure star position player.
I love Stanton but I think it’s the wrong time for the Mets to pull off that trade. If I thought they would magically start spending again then maybe. However, trading 5 of our top prospects for Stanton, what do they fill the rest of our holes with?
For Stanton, yes I’d definately think about it. I wouldn’t add another of the top pitching prospects or D’Anaud though.
I think it’s moot anyway…Wheeler isn’t going anywhere.
The guy who brought up the Rangers is right. One great power hitter doesn’t make the team. The pitching does and by next year, certainly by 2015, the Mets could be as good as San Fran has been lately due to their pitching.
2014: Niese, Harvey, Wheeler, Gee, Montero or a stop gap until Montero is ready.
2015: Niese, Harvey, Wheeler, Montero, Syndergaard
Now, that’s if they all reach their ceilings which is not garenteed. But, if they do, watch out. Fulmer should also be ready by then and now you have a legit top pitching prospect ready who becomes expendable AND a legit, proven starter in Gee who doesn’t have a slot. With today’s market for pitchers, the Mets could be in great shape to round out the team with good young players by trading at least Gee, maybe others. This is why I’m not crying like a lot of guys about Sandy’s lack of deals lately. The bigger picture looms large and it justifies the holding pattern.
Add that to the monies off the books after this year and I see no reason to spend foolishly on mediocre players to fill out a roster that isn’t ready to overtake the Braves…certainly not the much more powerful Nationals.
Exactly ^^^
I’ve been listening to a lot of Aerosmith’s Dream On lately.
Funny as I have been listening to AC/DC…Whole Lot of Rosie!
Haven’t I been saying this for months now? The only person in the league you deal your biggest chip for is for the biggest fish (no pun intended). The more I think about it, they’re probably holding out on Wheeler until they know for sure in their minds they have another sure thing that will be close to, if not, ML ready sooner than later, which is probably why they invited Rafael Montero to ML camp, although he has had only 6 starts under his belt in PSL. On the other hand, Montero can be used as someone to showcase in Spring Training. Then, you have Noah Syndergaard. I’ve read up about how more advanced he is at his age than Wheeler and I personally see him progressing through the system quickly, being a rotation option in 2014. As we know, the one thing that will have Syndergaard go through PSL quickly is refining his secondary stuff. Besides that, he already has all the tools.
I havent seen the Mets so high on a minor league pitcher since Bill Pulsipher.
Oh, thanks, we haven’t had a Generation K reference in a while.
Because those three went under a terrific development route.
Well my feeling on Wheeler is that we traded away a pretty damn good baseball player to get him straight up.
And unless your going to get a player as good as we gave to get him your really just ensuring the Beltran deal was not worth doing.
Either because he doesn’t live up to what many expect him to do or he DOES after we traded him…
And in the end if we trade Wheeler what you really have done is trade away half the kids everyone likes to think we have REBUILT the minors with…..
So they kind of HAVE to keep him as untouchable otherwise the last three offseason are for nothing all we will have for it is d’Arnaud and whoever we trade for Wheeler…
See you in 2020 at the playoffs at that rate…
When the Marlins trade Mike Stanton, they will have better young talent than the Mets. Book it. For all those thinking the Mets’ future is currently bright, when the Marlins trade Stanton they will actually surpass us in having a bright future. See what Seattle ponied up for Upton…Stanton will cost even more. We are so screwed. Championship hopes in 2020 though, so we have that.
No, because Loria will still own the team. For all the complaining we do about the Wilpons, it could be so much worse.
What are you saying “No” to? That they will have better talent than us? That they will have a better hope for the future than us? Or that they will relegate us to 5th place instead of 4th? If the Rangers zero in on Stanton they would be sending Profar or Andrus, Olt, Perez, and more. So I guess, what exactly are you saying “No” to?
“That they will have a better hope for the future than us? Or that they will relegate us to 5th place instead of 4th?”
No. And history is completely on my side.
History says they have won two world series to our zero since they have come into existence. If there is a team that knows how to build and tear down, I’d have to go with the Marlins. History agrees with me there.
Jeffrey Loria’s Marlins didn’t. Jeffrey Loria bought the Marlins when the 2003 team was already assembled and then promptly sold them off after the World Series.
So, ya, history is still with me. Loria has never shown the ability to build.
When Loria is no longer the owner, we’ll visit this again. but until that happens, we have no reason to think of them as contenders.
There is something about that Marlin History that should be pointed out….
Both wins were essentially part of the SAME rebuilding! And the same Front Office.
Wasn’t really a case of two rebuildings at all….
The FO that created the WS winner had also had a lot of other good players already in the system and got some good players via the trade to make that 6 year repeat possible.
They built a good team that won it in 97 and probably could have been competitive for the next 4 or 5 years if they had kept it as they had rebuilt the Minors to sustain it….They might have won 3 or 4 WS winners if they had stood pat with what they had and suplemented with thier Minors.
What they did was Trade away everyone worth anything for even MORE kids at the first sign of success which paid off 6 years later when most of those kids and the few they already had paid off.
Truth is rebuilding has a very low success rate, Pirates and Oakland have seen little glory essentially stuck in a perpetual rebuilding proccess that seemingly never pays off.
And while some teams who rise will rise based on how well they rebuilt how WELL they did is usually more about how high and how well they drafted than how well they tore down the winning team and started the rebuild.
All of the teams who are considered to have been successfully rebuilt all started rebuilding not by DECONSTRUCTING but by being so bad they had no choice but to take the high picks and live in the cellar until they had enough to get out.
Especially true in the NL East….
All of the teams that have eventually dominated the division or won something spent a great deal of time in the cellar to build the team that did it!
Mets in 86, Braves in the 90′s, Phillies since then and now the Nats.
Even the Marlins were bottom dwellers before they made thier WS win.
Rebuilding can ONLY happen if you get the access to the top tier elite prospects in the draft. Then you either get a player that helps you win on the farm or a Guy who doesn’t seem to work but still has a high CIELING due to what everyone thought he is capable of and therefor worth more in trade to get what you DO need and he can’t fill.
The problem with this FO is they are taking what has been a 3rd place team and making it a last place team so they can get to the point where rebuilding is possible.
And thats probably a strategy that can work but it comes at a very high cost to the fans….
They have to sit through the 3-4 years of getting to the Cellar and then another 5 years with nothing but draft picks to look forward to before you get to where you want to be.
With Free Agency what it is you could get the same results much quicker and money will not be an issue because if you win it pays for itself!
So, buy players, conduct fire sale. You’ve already advocated this. Thanks but no one actually wants to follow this route.
sustained success, Metsie. sustained success.
Yeah how well have we sustained it?
Hell we haven’t even SEEN it!
The only thing SUSTAINED after two years is the losing!
But wait we have IMPROVED on the losing column haven’t we?
You selling a pile of crap!
Selling smke and mirrors because no one who has ever done what WE are doing has ever HAD Success let alone sustained it!
I don’t want to offend anyone but I have one serious problem with Wheeler and it has nothing to do with his pitching ,mechanics or anything baseball. It’s his character I just can’t get with. Take a look at his twitter. He is clearly a big rap fan. Take a look at his tweets. He may be what many call the n word but replaced with a w because he is Caucasian. The one problem I have always had with black pitchers(I’m black ,prefer black and not African American. As my grandmother used to say “I ain’t never been to Africa”) is there attitude, over confidence and the overall mind state rap music instills. It takes a certain kind of person to enjoy this music. Defensive ends recievers and running backs not quarterbacks. Shooting guards and not the guy running the point. Centerfielders and and NOT pitchers. These positions require calm demeanors. Patient and reserved players that can get you through 7 to 9 innings. I’m sorry but I will take a good ole cowboy and his country music on the mound over a young kid who grows up listening to rap. Same for rock music except Charlie Sheen makes me think they will make good closers. There is a big difference between Harvey and Wheeler. Everyone loved Harvey fromdayone of spring training. Lets see if Wheeler receives the same love. If he doesn’t i bet you all its his attitude because of his preference of music. Trust me on this.
Interesting HB. I have said this kid got some weird things going on, of course, i got anhialated for it, but don’t worry, the CORE got your back on this….
well, I have to say, this is a persepctive I don’t think I have ever seen before.
might be a good stufy. take the best guys at a position, find out what their music preference is, and see if there is a correlation between type and performance!
So Wheeler is a problem because he listens to rap? How stereotypical. Just for the record, not all rap is the garbage that you hear on the radio. Personally, one of all-time favorites is Big Daddy Kane.
eminem stuff from the 90′s is pretty awesome
Flip Bondy in 2011 wrote a whole article on the mets wild clubhouse b/c they were playing rap music.
the fact that a very large portion of the sports media in NY is lets say…not very urban friendly…leads to alot of villians created due to differences in culture.
Notice Scott Kazmir playing eminem in the clubhouse in 2004 was a story…but when he goes to the young Rays, its not…
to me its a generational thing…
i probably would be telling a 21 year old kid to shut off that Drake/Wiz Khalifah too…
not b/c they are talking about materialism, sex, money and murder…
its b/c Wiz Khalifah ( and 90% of rappers today ) SUCK
I DJ on the side and I dont know half of the rappers these kids want me to play…
but best believe i get the party going with some slick rick ( mona lisa/children’s story is timeless ) special ed ( got it made ) BDK ( aint no half steppin ), rakim ( pick a song, any song from that first album )
hip hop sucks
sandy sucks
the wilpons suck
kids taste in music sucks
long live the mets
H.B., I would like to see your data backing that thought process up. I too use the term black because to be African American by definition would have to have been born in Africa, migrated to the US and become a citizen ( but that is another lesson). Rap music cannot be measuring stick for one’s demeanor, character, integrity, or athletic ability position wise. If that were the case athletes would be listening to Perry Cuomo, Johnny Mathis, or Nat King Cole. Or no athlete would listen to music that was made after 1985 because in MHO most music has been in a free fall ever since. Interesting premise, but show me some facts backing that up.
I wish I could have my 5 minutes back that I wasted reading this ridiculous comment.
DITTO!
What are you talking about? I looked at his twitter(why I even gave this post a second thought is my own madness). In the entire month of January he made ONE music reference and it was about listening to Dean Martin on a rainy day.
His tweets are respectful and polite, never uses foul language, sarcasm or snide.
The only thing you may point out his is awful taste in NFL and NBA teams, but other than that, this is completely false and pointless.
always have to remember with any big prospect trade is that once they are spent, they are gone. So part of the price is the opportunity cost of what you can’t get in the future, not having them to use or trade.
which is why effectively gutting the farm talent (if you do) is so risky, when you also have holes to file on the ML roster, and need to make other trades.
so if you are trading pretty much all your valuable trade chips for 1 guy, if the team is still not competitive (more holes that can’t be filled) it may not make sense at that point.
Now, if you are a team that is otherwise stacked on the ML level, and have more top prospects than you can figure out what to do with, then hell yeah, clear out the excess for the difference maker that puts you over the top!
Giancarlo sure didn’t help Miami win last year so he isn’t a game changer. It takes a team to win a game and the Mets’ team has far too many holes. Stanton would not make the Mets a winner overnight.
Soooo, it would be pretty dumb to trade 4 or 5 good to great prospects to get him. That said, if I knew Sandy was going to go all in after trading for him, then that changes everything and there shouldn’t be any prospects that are untouchable.
There aren’t any players in today’s game that could single handedly turn a team into a championship contender. Giancarlo is great, but he was on a team last year that thought they were good enough to win it all and now they’re the laughing stock of the league. You need 24 other guys and of those 24, you need great pitching amongst them. You add Giancarlo to the Giants last year, but take away Cain, and I don’t think San Fran wins it all. Do you?
Stanton isn’t a game changer and let me guess, Wheeler is? LOL You kiddies are too much. BTW Buffalo and Binghamton didnt win anything with Wheeler either. LOL
“Giancarlo sure didn’t help Miami win last year so he isn’t a game changer. ”
LMAO
So exactly what is David Wright ?
A DECOY!
To try and fool people that the Game we have been playing since Sandy got here has CHANGED!
Of course I would trade Wheeler straight up or with another decent prospect, but I wouldn’t include him in any package for Upton…
Wheeler straight up for Stanton? Enjoy Florida, Zach.
Wheeler +Flores/Fulmer/Familia/etc etc? No.
Oops meant i would be willing to give up wheeler for stanton, but not upton
“In the unlikely event that Wheeler did make the team out of spring training, he would most certainly become Super Two arbitration eligible.”
Ya, pretty much why I thought it was silly. He’s just filling air time there.
Never said DW was a game changer.
Let me guess, Jaun Centeno is a game changer…
Please, turn that Wiz Khalfir up biatch!! Centeno sucks.
actually a catcher has MORE of an effect on the game than a 3B !!!
A catcher has to catch 120-130 pitches PER GAME
His throwing affects 2B-SS + CF…and sometimes LF+3B
His ability to establish a good relationship with an ump will help out a staff…
A Catcher is like a 2nd manager on the field, best believe he is a game-changer
Alderson says a lot of things and most of it is bullshit.
I heard the whole interview and Wheeler will be in triple A at the start of the season. it is a no brainer.
I would jump at Stanton, but I think they can get him next season without giving up Wheeler. Montero, Mateo, Fullmer, Flores, Tapia, and others can all have considerably more value next off season with a strong showing this season. I really like Montero and he could very well end up being Mets top pitching prospect after Wheeler, good enough to get a deal done next off season with Flores and a few others.
Agreed on Wheeler. Somewhat agreed on Stanton but he needs to be there next year for that to be a possibility. He may well go soon, and Mets will need to be in the mix although I think Texas and Seattle have better prospects to deal if the choose. Stanton at 23 with 4 years of control is a franchise changer and one of very few who you drain the farm for. They’ll find other prospects.
I really wish the Mets would stop stealing my ideas
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/09/zack-wheeler-will-be-in-starting-rotation-on-opening-day-2013.html