19
2013
Mets Have $95M Payroll And Only $5 Million To Spend? Not Exactly…
An article by 
Just caught a glimpse of this on MetsBlog:
So, as we’ve been discussing all winter, the Mets payroll is around the same number as it was last year, but without adding new talent to the roster (and reducing their payroll commitments by parting ways with Jon Rauch, Mike Pelfrey, Andres Torres and Ramon Ramirez). Now, Sandy Alderson has indicated he would be able to expand the budget to around $100 million, but that doesn’t give him much flexibility to maneuver, especially since he needs to find an outfielder or two, a starting pitcher, and some relief help.
Totally disagree.
First of all, if you read Adam Rubin’s payroll calculation you would see that the $94.9 million he projects is not actual cash outlay, it’s just an arbitrary number for purposes of determining if any luxury tax is due.
In real dollars…. In real life…. In real cash outlay… In real numbers like the kind the IRS is interested in…
The Mets actual cash outlay for 2013 now stands at:
$69.9 Million Dollars
That accounts for David Wright’s $3 million deferred salary, Jason Bay’s $12 million in deferred salary, Johan Santana’s $5 million in deferred salary and also another $5.5 million for his 2014 option buyout.
None of the money above is being paid in 2013. It is being added in to the payroll projection solely for determining Luxury Tax according to MLB rules.
The truth is that the Mets are paying less than $70 million in payroll for the 2013 season.
Those are the facts.
Sandy Alderson is NOT limited to just $5 million in spending flexibility as the MetsBlog article suggests. If he wanted to keep actual spending at the same level as 2012, he has about $25 million to spend as MMO has always accurately reported.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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There’s a reason that payroll is so low……
Spot on!
If those numbers u gave are correct
69-25.5 = actual payroll being 44.5 mil
44.5 mil
say it again…
44.5 mil…
3 years ago it was 140 mil
Sandy Alderson should be doing my taxes, not running my team
Let me take a stab at breaking this down…
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tfJWfaPG4VXbDyBscIZf1MQ&output=html
this is what money will be spent on the 2013 roster for the 2013 SEASON
Santana – 20.5 mil ( 5 mil deferred )
Wright – 8 mil ( 3 mil deferred )
Bay – 8 mil ( with 13 mil deferred )
Buck 6.5 mil
FF – 6.5 mil
Niese 3 mil
Ike – around 3 mil
Murph – around 3 mil
Parnell 1.7
so far i count around 53 mil before we get to the pre-arb guys making 500K a year…
Our payroll will be at or around 60 mil this season…
after Santana’s 20 mil is off the books…its going to be around 40-45 mil in 2014…
with dwindling attendance, a roster with no OF, a poor defensive 2B, a ticked off 1B, a poor minor league system, no consistency, a bad ownership group, and a dwindling list of players entering the free-agent market…
remind me again how / where we were going to attract players to come here ?
Like i said…if Sandy is trying to force Jeff Wilpon out of queens by running the mets into the ground. I salute him !!!
This might be our ticket to getting a new owner
Running the mets into the ground !
Ya Gotta Believe !!!
Whether your numbers are right or not, they add up to a little over 60 mil, not 53 mil.
But i said ===> “Our payroll will be at or around 60 mil this season…”
Not to beat a dead horse here, but if you add the numbers of the nine players you listed it is 60.2 mil. Add the pre-arbs (14@500k) I come up with 67.2 mil
Joe D.- Tell it like it really is! I don’t understand why Rubin is tweeting that nonsense. With maybe a couple of more million shaved off your figures if Sandy succeeds at trading Santana at midseason.
I disagree. It doesn’t matter when you spend it. It matters when it’s budgeted for. I think Rubin’s calculations are correct. They seem to be in synch with the team’s accounting methods per team sources.
Frankly, that’s fine with me. I don’t want Santana’s deferrals or Bay’s to saddle future payrolls. Just as I don’t want Bonilla’s and Beltran’s to saddle the current payroll budget….whcih apparently they do not.
Spending is spending. MLB payroll calculation is fun with math. They are going to pay those deferrals whenever they are owed and not now.
If it does saddle future spending, declaring it now won’t keep that from happening. It could still saddle them regardless.
It’s not being spent now, it gets spent in the future anyway and it will impact spending when it does.
The information contained in this article is about spending. ($69 million spent now, and $25 million spent in the future.)
The key point is the money left to spend. The article contends that there’s $25M left in the budget to spend. I believe that’s incorrect and non consistent with either the Mets accounting methods or with information I’ve seen anywhere else.
What is incorrect is SNY, Wilpon, Alderson, Metsblog saying they have spent $95 million. It’s a bold faced lie intended to give the perception the Mets are spending. Apparently it’s working.
But it’s very clear to anyone who follows (as you clearly do) that there are deferrals and the cash isn’t all leaving the door this year.
That’s far less important to me than what money is left available for either free agency signings or taking on in trades. To think that they have $25M left to spend is incorrect. And it’s not corroborated by anyone anywhere that I’ve seen.
No argument from me about the amount of cash leaving the coffers this year. That’s not my issue — or my primary concern. (Though, yes….it does speak to their being cash-strapped enough to borrow from Peter to pay Paul….a practice that they seem addicted to and has gotten them into terrible messes. These are two distinct and separate issues.)
See what I said about deferrals….
The money of deferrals actually NEVER leaves the door….
It gets put into an investment fund that pasy the player and returns the investment seed money to the team who agreed to the deferred payment.
Yes. In theory that’s how it’s supposed to work (though whether the seed money gets earned back through interest is dependent on the length of the deferral and the interest rate earned…and is precisely one of the things that blew up on them w/Madoff). A Santana deferral where the full $5M were to be invested for 5 years before payout at an account earning 18% annually would come close to fully paying out, I believe. A Bay deferred payment of 1 year at an investment fund not run by Bernie Madoff would net a much smaller return, no?
Not really….
Madoff was promising 16% return….
The average investment returns around 12-14%….
Yes Madoff was promising a return the Market coudln’t meet but it is not all that much more because it couldn’t sell it as an up and up investment if it did….
No one would believe it or trust it if it was as high a return as people think it was compared to REAL investments.
Your talking a plus of $2 for every $100 more than a legit investment fund.
That comes to for every 100K, 2K more. For every Million 20K more.So really to get the same you just put an extra Million in the account and you far surpass whatever it was you were getting from Madoff that was above the norm.
Real Fund @14% 1MIl nets you 140K
Madoff Fund @16% 1 Mil nets you 160K
Real Fund @14% 2 Mil nets you 280K
Then remember you also collect interest on the interest made by the account
So the only real difference is you have to tie up more money in the investment and if you find the right number you get enough Interest to pay the deferral PLUS get all the money you put in back and in some cases even make money on it to boot.
A fair enough point.
A deferral is a liability. That is money in a contract not paid but due to be paid – 2013 DW ‘s contract.and Jason Bay deferral amount. . In accounting all deferred payments are liabilities and go against the 2013 budget even though paid (cash out flow) in another year.
Thisis different than taking funds at present value and investing it to pay a future commitment when earned such at the serial payments each year of John Santana’s contract which is not due yet. Santana’s salary due in 2014 is not a deferral but a commitment to the 2014 Budget.
If it does saddle future spending, declaring it now won’t keep that from happening. It could still saddle them regardless.
It’s not being spent now, it gets spent in the future anyway and it will impact spending when it does.
=====
^^^ THIS !!!!
People act as if the money they are paying Glavine, Pedro, Beltran, Saberhagen, Wagner, Bonilla, etc doesnt exist..
The mets got low-interest loans from those players during years we were making boo koo bucks at the gate…
did they reinvest that money and go for broke ?
NOPE !! they enjoyed the savings !!!
so instead of caving in to Chad Bradford’s ludicrous 3 mil salary or Darren Oliver’s…they put that money in their pocket !!!
The 2006 Mets broke attendance records…
The 2007 Mets didnt want to spend money on Bradford/Oliver and passed up on Manny to replace Floyd b/c Boston wanted us to cover his 23 mil salary in 07
We miss the playoffs by one game with a much cheaper Alou ( who hits over .340 for 7 mil )
On paper our payroll that year was 115,231,663, add the difference in Alou/Manny ( 16 mil ) + another 6 mil for the bullpen
and instead we have a payroll of 140 mil…but we make the playoffs EASILY…
the extra income for making the playoffs that year, helps off-sets the money we pay for Manny, Bradford and Oliver
http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/30/commentary/sportsbiz/index.htm
making the playoffs in 3 straight years results in a potential extra 45 mil ( AT LEAST ) in revenue
and who knows how far we go in the 2007 playoffs or the 2008 playoffs…with a lineup on fire, a stud bullpen with a good long reliever in Oliver ( the real secret sauce to 2006 pitching success)
we will always wonder b/c our half-ass owners were too concerned with their pockets
I think people don’t really get the whole deferred pay thing….
It’s money that a player WILL get but it’s never really money the team puts out!
The whole concept behind deferred payment is a certain amount of money is NOT PAID to the player but INVESTED in an account that pay a BETTER INTEREST RATE than the player himself gets on the deferral.
Example: Player A gets a 5 Mil deferred payment in 2020 on a 2010 Contract. Reducing his 2010 Contract by 5 Million. 2-3 Million gets put into an investment account (by the owners)collecting interest that in most cases far surpasses the amount the player gets paid when they cash it out when the deferred payment is due. Not only does it earn the money the player gets paid the OWNER who put the money in the account USUALLY gets the initial seed for the account back meaning the Owner and team didn’t really pay that player a dime. The Investment did and whatever money the team put in gets returned to that team.
So it really doesn’t matter WHEN it is budgeted for that money is almost always NEVER lost or paid by the team. A Fraction of it gets tied up for X amount of years but thats about all and in the end they get it back.
YUP !!!
and in those players cases…the deferred accounts were tied up in MADOFF MONEY !!!
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/02/sports/baseball/02mets.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
So the wilpons were getting 12-18% on money they got loaned for 1%
( kinda like the way our banks get no interest loans from the fed and charge us 13% )
The Wilpons are nothing but a glorified set of 3-card molly players and Sandy is the guy in charge of getting them out of their latest mess
a mess they never should’ve been able to afford
Which in the end the Wilpons mad a ton MORE money from than all the deferred payments combined JDD…..
I know people like to think the WIlpons lost money in the Madoff scandal but the truth is they were one of the few WINNERS in that fund…
They took out FAR MORE than they ever put in and far more than they may have still had in there when it all blew up.
No matter how you slice it they MADE money off madoff when you look at what they put in and what they took out they wound up on the plus side of it all and got more than enough to pay all those deferred contracts.
The assumption you made which could be valid is that the money not paid is invested instead of being paid out of future earnings when the deferral period ends. A deferral can work either way by the the one who is under contract required to pay. Any interest earned would be taxable.
Well what I’m saying is not ALL of that money owed is invested….
As an example a player defers 5 MIl for 5 years…
They put 3 Mil into an investment and collect the interest until the account hits 5 Mil mark…
Team actually didn’t pay the 5 Mil they really only paid 3 in that case…
Another would be They put all 5 Mil into an account Pay the player spreading the deferral over the next 5 years (1 Mil per) after 5 years whatever is left they get back….If they invest in the right fund they could get away with paying him only 2 Mil of thier own money or none at all!
Lots of ways to handle deferred payment….
The worst ones (where you do get screwed) are the ones where the team invests the money in itself…Hoping they are going to make so much money by the time it’s payment is due it won’t matter….
This team is not in any position to deferr money that way….
Usually deferments are based on need or a tax deferment such as a 401K.
A company X which has a cash flow problem also has a supplier who can’t afford to lose Company X as its customer since as it does over 50% of sales to company X. The supplier knows that Company X just got a govt. contract and a cash stream through billings to the govt will begin soon. The supplier defers payments knowing Company X will be able to pay within 6 mos.
Why did I go all through that? The Mets supposedly due to bond obligations and dwindling attendance are cash strapped. It was to DW and Bays advantage to defer payments BUT not for tax reasons as in Bonnilla’s case. Bay to get a new start and DW so the Mets could have some cash flow flexibility as the supplier did with Company X. Is the increased cash flow by deferment flexibility being used ? NO WAY Jose’
That is why I am starting to turn on Sandy with this pathetic OF.
but one glance at the upcoming list of free-agents shows that there arent many players to spend on in 2014….
so exactly what does having flexibility do for you when you dont have players to get ?
and the free-agent pool is very hit/miss
you are paying for past performance hoping it results as projected.
Who are the upcoming free-agents ?
Dustin Pedroia ?
Robinson Cano ?
Chase Utley ?
Jacoby Ellsbury?
Felix Hernandez ?
Doc Halliday
Cliff Lee
Derek Jeter LOL
Tulo ?
All these guys are either OLD, INJURY PRONE, Past their prime, want to play for winners
Good luck defending the FIRM !
“All these guys are either OLD, INJURY PRONE, Past their prime, want to play for winners ”
You forgot one thing….
Or MORE than likely to be re-signed by the team they currently play for or cost you a 1st round pick which THE FIRM thinks is dumber than sticking your pinkie in a high voltage electrical socket!
Two things:
1) Tulo’s contract expires in 2020.
2) Pedroia & Felix? Gotta open the wallet for them. I highly doubt Pedroia will remain in Boston until that contract expires with them wanting to do a “youth movement” transition over there. He’s the kind of veteran leader this team needs as it’s been repeatedly stated by Metsie about Valdespin getting his shit together. You bring a proven winner like Pedroia here? They (future FA’s) will come, wanting to “play for a winner”. The Pedro Martinez effect, if you will.
I agree in that Pedroia would be an asset for us…
I just can’t see them letting him go and if they did it would be over Bill James’ dead body as he just LOVES that guy and gushed over him in the top 10 2B program on MLBN.
Now that doesn’t mean anything as he is just a consultant and not the GM but I think it would be a longshot they really let him go….
If they do I would definitly go for him though.
Can’t say I blame him for gushing over Pedroia. I can only hope Boston becomes desperate at the trade deadline, wanting to make an extra push should they be in the thick of things.
Another guy I’d bring in here that’s a future FA? Pence. Always been a fan of his, and watching the documentary of the Giants run through the postseason on MLB Network earlier today, his leadership would be another plus. Outside of his usual .270-.280, 20+ HR seasons, gotta admire his heart.
Here is to hoping for desperation! LOL
I’m not totally enamored with Pence…He is MILES ahead of anyone we have and lets face it we are in no position to say NO to that where we stand now….
But I don’t know he has the numbers to be a good leader, maybe he does maybe he has the mindset for it (I don’t know his personality type enough to say)..
But he seems more like a good guy to have around to back up a leader than a leader himself…
Murphy has the same heart just none of the credits to lead….
Rubin’s article was very clear about this, is the comprehension that low? Propaganda anyone? I hope not , I just want a team I can be proud of that’s all
Exactly. The Mets propaganda machine is hard at work these days. Wheeler and D’Arnaud could make team out of spring, Mets still looking for “big name” outfielder, payroll already at $95 million, Wright loves the plan, Collin Cowgill is the best under the radar move of the offseason, etc.
Considering they did NOT count Wright’s deferred, Counted ALL of Bays (incl Deferred) then tacked on 2014 money (santana’s buyout) it’s quite obvious they did whatever they could to make the number come out to 95Mil so it looked like they are keeping thier word…
Sandy has never dealt with a press and city like NY…
You might be able to get away with fudging numbers and budgets even stretch the truth in places like Oakland and cities like Sand Diego…
But NY is the financial capitol of this country if not the world….
They can smell bull like this a mile away!
And so too can anyone who lives here….
“There are different ways to compute payroll, but I’m told by a team insider the logical way to calculate it for public consumption ”
The bolded bits are all you need to know this is a pure PROPAGANDA piece by the team to make excuses for thier lack of spending….
They know if they admit how much they are actually spending (as was exposed here by MMO) they will have no explanation for the payroll they have and all the holes they will not be filling this year….
It’s clear now that the Season Ticket pre-sales and renewals are down even from last year…
Now we know why Sandy went onto MF’s show and said 2013 was what he was shooting for…
When everyone laughed at him and brought up his lack of spending this FAUX BUDGET is what they came up with….
I didn’t even consider the fact that the payroll leak from a team insider was timed to be released right after his interview. I didn’t know the number came from the Mets for public consumption. Nice catch. No coincidences here.
Public Consumption = Marketing in almost every case you can find…
It is a phrase that suggest PEOPLE ARE STUPID so lets make it easier for them to consume with thier limited thinking capacity….
Just like an 11 Inch sandwich is called a foot long because it’s easier for the public to CONSUME that!
Good analogy
the wilpons have a 30,000 foot distance and view of the met fanbase….
they really are out of touch with the avg NY fan and have always been.
You give the Wilpons WAAAAAYYYY to much credit for coming up with this….
Only a person well versed with SPREADSHEETS could have invented this story! LOL
Maybe they’ll start counting “projected” earnings from 2014 into 2013 profits too. =]
From a business perspective, it appears they’re trying to shave off the 20 million they lost last year: 95 mil – 20 mil = 75 mil. If Joe’s calculations are correct, that leaves 5 mil to spend and still break even.
Of course with the added profits from the all-star game, they’ll be able to finally say that they’re a profitable franchise again. Job well done SA; break out the champagne.
I’d like to see a break-down of actual spending in 2013 of previously deferred salaries, as that would need to be added to the 69.9 mil to be fair I think.
“I’d like to see a break-down of actual spending in 2013 of previously deferred salaries, as that would need to be added to the 69.9 mil to be fair I think.”
ABSOLUTELY
it also makes one question why they didnt spend that money BACK THEN…
i think the wilpons are trying to avoid that…they would rather just pretend that the money doesnt really exist
If you don’t count the deferred money for Wright, Santana and Bay this year then you must count in the previously deferred money from Bonilla & Beltran and whoever else has money coming to them.
You can’t just drop off all deferred money and never count it against any years payroll.
That is why they count it against the current year because it will have to be paid out as payroll sooner or later.
It is like saving your cake but eating it too.
Your way is an exaggeration in order to make the owners look cheap but it is not accurate.
Let the professionals handle the numbers because you have already shown zero capacity to understand math nor business.
You shoudnot count Deferred money EVER for the reasons I have explained in this thread….
It is not money that the Owners ever wind up paying themselves….Just money the set aside to EARN money that will eventually be paid!
“It is not money that the Owners ever wind up paying themselves….Just money the set aside to EARN money that will eventually be paid!”
I understand there are a lot of ways to lay out the “books” for accounting/tax purposes and what not, but are you saying, for instance, that all of Jason Bay’s 15 mil in deferred salary will be placed into an escrow-type account in 2013, where only money earned (by investment) over and above the 15 mil + interest owed could be withdrawn by the team/owners? Is there a law or something about that? If not, then from a cash-flow perspective, I think it is reasonable to look at actual money spent versus money earned.
I’m just a simple guy with a checking account. I deposit my paychecks, make my withdrawals, so I’m by no means an expert on corporate financial matters. Just trying to look into actual money spent on 2013 payroll, as in, actual dollars going out the door.
In any case, I’d like to see the Mets get profitable again soon; I think long-term success has to include managing their money wisely. And I don’t think it’s disputable that underneath all the PR stuff, there is a real necessity from a business perspective, to break even or make a profit in 2013. If I have one complaint, I just wish they were straight about it to their customers (the fans).
Well for the lay person think of it as a 401K plan or IRA….
Your essentially deferring salary and placing it into investment accounts that when you retire will have grown via interest to a sum large enough to live off of for the remainder of your life by living off the interest and not having to really touch the principle that created the interest.
Truth is a Player could take the money and invest it himself just as easily….
Then it would be just like a 401K or IRA….
The difference is the Owner puts up the money to get the interest. If he’s smart with where he puts it and picks the right investment he can actually MAKE money on the investment he doesn’t have to give to the Player….
If he’s stupid and puts it into a bad fund (like a Madoff) he could lose money as well…
Deferring is all about WHO takes the risk…
It’s a way of putting money to work to pay off bills that you don’t really want to pay….
Did some research on the deferred salaries to be paid in 2013 and this is what I found out:
1.19 mil to Bonilla (couldn’t find information on interest rate)
0.25 mil to Saberhagen (couldn’t find information on interest rate)
3.54 mil to Beltran (3.14 mil + 7 years of compound interest at 1.7175%)
??? to Bay (all we know is 15 mil deferred over 5 pmts ending 2015 – may be some paid in 2013, may not start those payments until 2014; amount of each pmt is unknown – may be 3 mil each, may be different)
So we’re talking at least 4.98 mil in deferred salary payments in 2013.
Bonilla’s deferred payments go from 2011 through 2035 at 1.19 mil.
Saberhagen: from 2004 through 2028 at 250k.
Beltran: from 2012 through 2018 at 3.54 mil according to my calculations.
Johan: from 2014 through 2019 at 5.39 mil according to my calculations.
Bay: from 2014 (or 2013?) through 2015 totalling 15 mil, not including interest if there is any, so I can only guess – 6 mil in 2014 and 9 mil in 2015? Or vice-versa? Or if 2013 is included, then 3 mil in 2013 + 6 mil in 2014 + 6 mil in 2015?
I couldn’t find any information about deferred salary payments to other players.
TC,
The notion that the owners are not paying anything on deferrals because they are funded by interest is not correct. Even with Madoff interest rates, it is not possible to earn enough interest on the deferral principle to pay off the player with inteest. Plus, most of these deferrals provide the player with the deferred salary plus interest. The Wilpons will pay that deferred salary eventually, so in some ways the deferrals rob from tomorrow for today, which means the Wilpons have $25 mil to spend in 2013, as Joe D. said.
THERE YOU GO TC!!!!
You cracked the code!
It’s about that 23 Mil they lost last year and in order to be able to say they turned profitable they will suggest they spent X when they really spent Y hoping to perpetuate another lie next year that they turned a profit for the first time since Sandy was brought in and NOW (2014) is when the rebuild can actually start….With an expected 5 years to get it done….
Hello 2018 or 2019, Right around the time the Wright contract expires….
Connect the dots on all the moves this FO has made and you see the goal and plan was NEVER about 2013-2015…That was just for “PUBLIC CONSUMPTION” the goal was always to GUT the team, Make it as cheap as possible and start rebuilding in 2014 for a late decade target for competition.
Unfortunatly for many met fans they were right…Many in the public WERE too stupid to see through it and bought the lie so well they even went on Blogs and Phone in shows to SELL it to the rest of the fans as if that plan was a stroke of genius and the best thing for the team!
The actual payroll is 72 million right now for a 25-man roster, but Joe D’s number is close enough.
Since the spending this winter isn’t over yet, I’m not going to get too exercised over this. This leaves them 23 million to add a bullpen arm, a higher priced player (like Upton), maybe Hairston, and for mid-season reinforcements.
23 million can go pretty fast.
You can easily go to a website that does not cater to the Mets to get a list of @013 payrolls for teams when the season starts. If it says around 100 mill then it is probably around that, if you guys think that is wrong that means that all the teams are inaccurate. I will wait to see those figures.
BREF has it at 71Mil guaranteed with an estimate at somewhere around 86.
Not sure where the other 15 mil is comin from but it sure isn’t from Arbitration.
Notice BREF does not take in to account Bay’s deferred money or Wright’s they list each one at 18.12 mil and 11 mil respectively, but that is incorrect.
And as I have pointed out here plenty today…
You NEVER count deferred money because it’s never money that gets spent by the team, Just put into escrow until it earns the money the Player will eventually get in the deferrment.
Wright has deferred (whats the number 5 Mil? 8 MIl?)
The team puts 5 Mil in the investment fund today and by the time Wright gets that deferred money all he is really getting is the interest from the investment the 5Mil in the fund is still the team’s money!
I’m glad this was posted. I have been saying the same thing on the other website and it looks like more fans are waking up to the reality of the Wilpons’ shell game.
Between the end of the 2012 season and today, with the restructuring Bay and Wright contracts the Wilpons have freed up about $20 million in free cash flow for 2013 that they originally didn’t have. They also pulled in around $160 million from the SNY debt refinancing.
At $70 million, the actual cash outlay for payroll in 2013 is totally covered by the (below market) payment the team gets from SNY.
The team has the feel of a $50 million franchise because Santana occupies 20 out of the $70 million cash outlay in 2013. This scenario could have been avoided by maintaining a big market payroll and absorbing the sunk costs, but this is something the Wilpons don’t enjoy doing.
Look at the structuring of the deferred compensation. Bay gets paid off 2013-2015. Santana has $30 million plus interest in deferred compensation that starts getting paid in 2015. I think Beltran also has his deferred money coming due at the same time. Once that is paid off in 2020, Wright’s deferred compensation kicks off in 2021.
Look at how much deferred money teams like the Angels or Dodgers are handing out (Pujols got no deferred money.) The Wilpons deferred an abnormally large amount because of the Madoff returns, but now they have to defer money because they cannot afford to pay their obligations.
I don’t know about you guys, but I prefer to be a fan and not have to play accountant because the team’s owners are in dire financial straits. I don’t understand the Wilpon apologists that think running a team in this fashion is OK. The Rangers and Dodgers were in serious trouble a few years ago, but look to them as a demonstration of what a new ownership group can do for a team. While those teams turn in to perennial competitors on the field and in the off-season for free agents, the Mets wallow in the mire and cannot even sign a major league free agent.
I read your comments all the time on MetsBlog. Thanks for commenting and I totally agree with you. I don’t understand why some bloggers and fans feel a need to cover for the fact they are playing a shell game with us.
You would think those folks have some sort of vested interest in the Wilpons’ keeping the team.
Everyone should know that owning a sports franchise is a billionaire’s hobby. Most of these guys do it for ego and don’t care about profit and loss. They just want to win. A team is not supposed to be treated like a profit producing asset in someone’s portfolio!
Truth here is I think the SAVE THE WILPON campaign is just a ruse that many fans are hiding behind to hide what they REALLY like about what is going on….
Many are readers of Moneyball and believe in it. They want to see it work in hopes that if it works they will then have plenty of money to go buy even more players and finally come up with an example of a moneyball team that doesn’t beg the Question “Well what did they win?”
When Oakland failed to produce a WS title they tried to use the Red Sox as an example but forget the Red Sox spent plenty and while they used Sabers they didn’t throw out the top guys sabers said to get on the basis of how much they got paid.
So they really are less about the WILPONS (who they all claim to hate) nthey just want to see Moneyball work someplace….
The arguments here are not about the state of the team it’s about the Philosophy and when it’s supposed to work that all the arguments are about here.
You know if we just forget about the shells and say they are using clear plastic cups….
Or even if you BUY THE LIE and believe they are actually going to spend all of that 95 Mil they say they plan on spending….
YANKEES will still have TWICE the payroll we have in the SAME MARKET…
Will spend TWO DOLLARS for every Dollar we are spending and in the end:
1 – Will draw more than a Million more people
2 – Turn a profit (which can’t even be compared because the mets are still in negative number profit territory)
3 – Win 20+ more games than us
4 – And probably make the playoffs!
Anyone who clams to be a Met fan and accepts that as looking good for the Mets way of doing things should be ashamed of themselves!
Yup, you nailed it. The Wilpons have lowered many fans’ expectations so low they have either re-calibrated what they feel is a “reasonable” payroll, or they no longer care and that’s what attendance at Citi Field reflects.
Of course, the Wilpon defenders love to say how the Mets shouldn’t be like the Yankees and spend, spend, spend. These days, the Mets aren’t even like the Nats, Giants, Dodgers, Angels, Reds or any other successful team that doesn’t spend $180 million.
Has any team in the modern era gone so long without signing a major league free agent? It’s been over a year, so I wouldn’t be surprised if the Mets set that shameful record. It fits with their gigantic payroll decrease.
As I stated above it’s not even Wilpon defenders because most who like what is going on BLAME the Wilpons for it to deflect blame on the FO that is the one decided what to spend on….
I don’t like the WIlpons and they MAY have set the budget limit so low…
But then again they may have set it so low BASED on the reccomendations of Sandy…
“Fred we should get the budget down to this before we do X, Y and Z.”
Considering the past budgets and team the WIlpons have presided over I have a hard time believing they are the ones who INVENTED this miserly approach.
Perhaps Selig forced them or Sandy convinced them and maybe someone else advised them it was the way to go.
In either case if ANYONE believes this is the solution they haven’t a clue as to what the problem really is nor how to solve it.
The entire point of having a team is to get people to pony up to see it….
Buy Tickets to multiple games
Eat the slightly less than extortionate priced food when they do
Watch on TV when they don’t
Buy Shirts and souvenirs of players then love
None of what they are doing is conducive to any of that!
They have traded away whoever was thier best player that year for two years running…
They have raised ticket prices on tickets that they had problems GIVING away last year when they had a Cy Young Pitcher on the squad.
They have done nothing to give fans hope of a turnaround this year and even dubious it will turn around next year…
And in the proccess wasted a year or two of the few young talented players they claim they want to build around….
I got a 14 year old nephew who has more business sense than these guys do!
But the team had a big market payroll, absorbing sunk costs, when Omar was GM. Look where that got them! I don’t think one NLCS appearance is sufficient payoff for the money that was spent those years.
You are right that the Wilpons’ financial mess is hurting the club. But it’s not fair to compare them to Hicks and McCourt. I think Hicks was actually in bankruptcy when MLB interceded. McCourt was in bankruptcy and had run his team like a personal piggy bank. So the situations were different from the Wilpons. Were the Wilpons stupid? Yes, but they were also victims when it came to Madoff.
Mets fans are stuck with the Wilpons for now. Might as well enjoy the team as it is. And there is a lot to like with a young team that features Wright, Harvey and Ike and which has Wheeler and d”Arnaud knocking on the door.
“But the team had a big market payroll, absorbing sunk costs, when Omar was GM. Look where that got them!”
Ok Look….
1 – It got them competing for the Playoffs three years running
2 – 4 years of 3+ Million in attendance
3 – PROFIT (they didn’t start losing money until the STOPPED spending!)
4 – Still managed to draft Davis, Harvey, Tejada, Gee, Familia, Mejia, and more
The problem with your view is you think they SUNK COST but that didn’t happen until we started trading away the BEST player people came to see play!
This team was profitable until 2010 when it lost 50 Mil that year….
We didn’t spend a dime when Sandy got here gues what happened…We lost 20 Mil more for a total of 70 Mil….
So we cut 55 Mil did we only lose 15 that year?
NOPE 23 Mil!
Your way doesn’t work!
Your premise is all wrong!
1) With crushing chokes in two of those years
2) Thanks to a larger stadium, the final years of that stadium, and lower ticket and concession prices
3) MADOFF! Prior to 2009, there was all that Madoff money to cover losses. Plus, they didn’t have the crushing debt of a new stadium.
4) Familia and Mejia haven’t done anything yet on the ML level. Gee and Tejada are good but not out of the ordinary Davis and Harvey appear to be much better than average, but isn’t that the least a GM should have on his record in all those years?
The problem with your view is you think they SUNK COST but that didn’t happen until we started trading away the BEST player people came to see play!
LOL, what are you talking about? The team has been absorbing sunk costs for the last 2-3 years!
The team was profitable until Madoff and the new stadium debt crushed them. Sandy’s arrival simply coincided with the financial issues. And, as many are prone to preach here, he was brought in to run a more efficient team in light of those financial issues. Those issues preceded him.
Your way obviously failed. Your premise is ALL wrong.
How many time did the Braves choke when they were the hot team huh?
How many times has Oakland choked since they started doing what you want to do here? (thats 1995 by the way)
Madoff – Your talkin out your ass until you can show how much they LOST on Madoff….Most everyone knows they MADE MONEY off Madoff not lost which is why they got sued! You don’t sue someone who LOST money in Madoff only those who MADE MONEY!
Say whatever you want about the stadiums…They made money in CitiField in 2009 without even having a winning season so…so much for your fables of beating me on points yet again…
At least the Braves get into the postseason BEFORE they choke, with the exception being 2011. The Mets under Omar were habitual chokers in August-September because Omar neglected the bullpen and took on so many older and decrepit players who ran out of gas or got injured before the stretch run.
LOL, what makes you think I want Sandy to do what Oakland did? Stop making things up. I’ve never said that. And anyone comparing Beane’s Oakland teams to any other is inane. They’ve never had large payrolls to add needed depth to the roster. Beane has always gotten the most bang for his buck than any other GM in baseball.
And you’re clearly delusional or just terribly uninformed if you say you don’t know the Mets lost half a billion dollars in December of 2008. Yup. HALF A BILLION DOLLAR LOSS. Not too many teams can sustain such a loss and remain successful. Maybe just the Yankees or LA.
LOL, they made money on Citi in 2009 because it was the first year of a stadium. Even the Marlins had a rare good year of attendance when they opened their new stadium. Everyone knows that but you. You haven’t won a point yet!
Yeah so did the Mets….So Sorry you missed 2006!
So sorry you always miss everything! What about “I don’t think one NLCS appearance is sufficient payoff” in regards to Omar don’t you understand?
What about….”At least the Braves get into the postseason BEFORE they choke”
So did the Mets!
Gotcha!
BYE BYE!
And this came FIRST — “I don’t think one NLCS appearance is sufficient payoff”
Gotcha ALWAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(LOL at bye-bye … you can’t stay away)
The only thing you have got is a runaround, Excuses, a stubborn stupidty and a computer to use it all with!
How many times has Sandy’s method gotten more than a playoffs huh?
He is WORSE than Omar…AT least Omar only took one year to achieve what Sandy hasn’t in 13 years of trying.
I mean just look at those Padres of his…World Beaters….
I guess the Braves were failures as well….
The ONLY thing you get is a beating, time after time. Plus an utterly confused mind. And I can’t imagine you even have a real computer as your points are so vapid and empty. Probably just one of those dumb devices that does the internet only.
How many times has Sandy’s method gotten more than a playoffs huh?
LOL, are you really that uninformed? You really were born yesterday. HE WON A WORLD SERIES as GM! And he’s been to the playoffs more than Omar has.
Geesh. It’s like talking to a rock.
One last question before I ignore the hell out of you…..
How much would the Mets save if they cut the PR/Propaganda budget and FIRED YOU?
Ooooh, you’re so cute, Metsie. You always say you’re going to ignore me but then don’t. You’re obviously obsessed with me.
How much does Omar pay YOU to spout all that propaganda crap for him?
2006, 2007 and 2008 could have ended a lot differently if the idiot owners opened up the purse a bit at those trade deadlines or in those off-seasons and landed an impact player (like Manny, Oswalt, etc.). If Omar could have Manny for F-mart or Milledge and others and the Wilpons were willing to pay, they were idiots for not getting it done. I am not sure that the Wilpons would want to pay. After all, these are the guys that want “meaningful” games in September and didn’t want guys like Piazza (good thing Doubleday was still there) and then came up with every excuse to avoid big names like ARod or Vlad Guerrero. They went with the cheaper outfielder when it came to Bay and Holliday.
Remember when they brought in Santana in 2008 and then had terrible bullpen issues? What was their big pickup at the trade deadline in 2008? No one! Then when they make a move for a bullpen piece they get Luis Ayala.
The Wilpons also shot the team in the foot with their asinine draft strategy to stay on Selig’s good side. While teams spent the last decade going over slot and spending money in the draft, the Wilpons would not and the dearth of talent minor league system reflects that strategy. Look how much the team spent in the draft during Omar’s years compared to how much the Yankees or Red Sox did (who didn’t roll over for Selig).
The Wilpons need to go. The Mets need some owners that want to win and not just survive until the next debt payment comes due.
In 2006, 2007, 2008, Omar had the top or 2nd highest payroll in the NL. And yet some of you call the owners idiots for not letting him spend more! SMH. Sandy can only dream of having such riches to work with.
The owners are stupid not because they didn’t give Omar enough money to spend. They are stupid for hiring him in the first place. “They are stupid for investing with Madoff. They are stupid for building a new stadium with a smaller capacity and higher ticket and concession costs at a bad time in the economy.
Omar was given a budget to work with every year. If he spends all his bullets in the winter, that’s his fault. He should have saved some for the trade deadline.
And the dearth of talent in the minors has more to do with Omar’s near-sighted strategy of signing so many free agents, losing early round picks, and then not getting picks back by offering arb to players. It’s the early rounds where the better talent is. It doesn’t matter if you have the money to go over slot or not if you don’t have any draft picks in those rounds, Also, the Mets did go over slot sometimes — with Harvey, Pelfrey, and Matz.
The team that eventually won the WS in 2006 (cards) only spent 13 Mill less than us..
2007 WS winner Boston spent 42 Million more than us!
2008 Phillies are the only ones who have won the WS in a year we spent significantly more and in 2009 got thier ass handed to them by the Yankees who spent 210Mil
And HAVE SPENT MORE than Omar ever has for the past 10 years…
You how badly spending ruined them?
9 Playoffs 2 WS appearances one WS win!
Show me a team that spent less than 100Mil with results that good!
Couldn’t do it could you slappy?
Couldn’t do it could you slappy?
LOL, just did, sloppy!
Wrong again! Whoa, you are so off as usual on everything. The Mets year-end 2006 payroll was $20 million more the Cards! The year-end Red Sox payroll in 2007 was 35 million more than the Mets, not 42 million more. Plus, they play in the same division as the Yankees, so they HAVE TO spend a lot just to get to the WS.
The White Sox, Cards, Phillies and Giants ALL spent SIGNIFICANTLYLESS than Omar in the years they won the WS.
It’s really sad that other teams were able to spend so much less than Omar but were able to win it all!
Those number I quoted came straight from Baseball Reference…
Show your source for disputing them….
Maybe if your lucky I get around to reading them by Wed…
http://bizofbaseball.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=179
Take your time, sloppy. At least my links support the point I’m making, unlike yours.
Or even just added one more ACE type Pitcher to the rotation…
Eveyone remembers the curveball, the chokes and the Injuries….
But the problem was always NOT ENOUGH Pitching!
We lost someone in our rotation pretty much every year for 3 years and while Johan was a great pickup we needed one more like him to get that one two punch and stop losing streaks from going longer than 4 games between the two of them.
On a lighter note I found my new Favorite Beer…
Too bad they won’t be a sponser at CitiField but truth is there won’t be enough people attending to make a sponsorship worth doing anyway…
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/eats/new-fu-sandy-beer-charity-article-1.1242681?localLinksEnabled=false
Joe,
Two words in all caps. THANK YOU. When I saw Rubins piece today, and then that Metsblog linked to it as fast as they could type, I was enraged.
As the offseason is not over I still remain (blindly, maybe) hopeful things will change. But as of right now the payroll will go down again in 2013, from the putrid (for a team in this market) level of 2012. That is basic math. As for what is “the number” for 2013 for whatever purpose give me a break. If you look at the roster we ended the year with in 2012, and the one we have right now, unless Sandy makes some moves payroll will go down. Again.
THANK YOU for quickly refuting something that creates cover for both Alderson and Wilpon, whether that was the intent of the reporter or not.
It is the last thing either need.
It’s pretty clear that the one thing no one accurately knows is what the actual payroll is. There are varying estimates that range based on what is put in or left out (ex. deferred salaries, buyouts) but personally I fall more in line with the $69M-$71M range myself as referenced in this post cause I don’t count the deferred salaries that goes for those deferred down the road and those that are due to be paid now (ex. Bonilla). Though I think it is fair to say their is probably more salary being deferred for down the road between Santana, Bay and Wright combined than due to be paid this season from past contracts.
I also personally don’t see any conspiracy theory in Rubin’s article as he clearly pointed out how he came about the number he did and the team source quote he used was an old quote from back in mid December so this has been known for a good month now.
I think the BREF source is probably close and while I question where they get the Est Payroll up to 86 mil (with and without options thats number is the same) I suppose there is something We maybe missing as far as Some raises (just because a guy makes league minimum that number still goes up (and may go above 500K) for players making minimum with X amount of years of service.
Read in the News (Daily) that Davis and Murphy were both making above 500K last season and thier numbers were different by about 10-20K. I’m guess we may be low counting the league minimum guys and they are not which is how they are getting to the 86 Mil number…
They are quite clear (no Asterix or Footnotes) that we are at 71 Mil Guaranteed.
So the 15 Mil I’m questioning could part that and part Incentives which are NOT guaranteed and I’m thinkin Wrights deal has a few incentives for All Star and such.
Bottomline they have MORE than 5 Mil to spend if they say they are staying at 95 Mil…
I will point out though that last year the number they talked about was 110 MIl which we never hit and they were including the money to sign draft picks into that payroll number.
Cerrone and Baron are such idiots. And what an awful writer Matt is.
Does anyone really believe they are actually speaking thier mind and not just publishing what the team tells them to?
Alderson has said he wants a difference maker, well who might that be?
If we are going to get someone really good, that means we have to offer a package that’s very attractive. Wheeler, Harvey and D’Arnaud aren’t going to be part of that deal. Who does that leave? Well, there are some people on the current roster who may prove themselves in spring training or in the early weeks of the season, and then a deal may be possible.
The player or players that are acquired may well be pricey players. Spend that money now on marginal players and you can’t do that later trade.
I like Joe Saunders, Brian Wilson and Scott Hairston, but they probably aren’t difference makers, although Wilson might turn out to be, it’s a gamble.
I’d like Giancarlo Stanton. If some combination of players from the minors shows strongly in spring training that we can afford to trade Niese, for example, as part of a package, then I’d do it. . .
Adam Rubin is not a real Mets fan he is just a jerk reporting stuff that has no merit.
If you think objective journalism requires guys like Rubin to be fans of the Mets, you are in another stratosphere far removed from reality.
Actually I would hazard to say its the opposite…The LESS a fan you are the more objective you will be….
Sandy Alderson was GM of Oakland for 15 seasons. He had winning seasons in 5 of them. He took 5 years to build the A’s, had 4 great years and that was it. I don’t think you can describe that as a sustained winner.
You can say what you want about Omar and the barren farm system, but in his six seasons, he inherited a team that had three straight losing seasons and had four winning seasons and still managed to draft Davis, Murphy, Pelfrey,, Duda, Kirk, Parnell, Niese, Harvey and Gee. He also was able to pick up Pagan and Dickey.
People get on Omar for the collapses in seasons 3 and 4 after being a hit away from the World Series in Season 2. When do we get on Alderson for not even fielding competitive teams? Season 5 or 6?
I realize that this is apples to oranges as Alderson literally doesn’t have half the resources and had to agonize over signing Scott Hairston for what Omar could pay Julio Franco. But Omar was not a terrible GM. He wasn’t a great one either and should have been fired after 2010, but if the Mets don’t field a competitive team after 2014, Alderson should be shown the door as well.
Sandy Alderson was GM of Oakland for 15 seasons. He had winning seasons in 5 of them. He took 5 years to build the A’s, had 4 great years and that was it. I don’t think you can describe that as a sustained winner.
On top of that he did it with a top 5 MLB payroll and when the well ran dry he split.
I think it was Edgar Allan Poe who said, every good legend is based on a good lie.
A he will win a World Series…
(Well…Just Quoth the Raven here….LOL)
At the end of the day, whether its 50, 70, 95, everyone but Terry Collins is going to get a pass this year. Can we all agree that next year, when Santana, Bay, Francisco, Buck and their 40-60 million come off the books, the excuses stop?
They should but I sure woldn’t bet on them stopping….
It will still be blamed on Wilpon not allowing him to spend
Excuses will be made there was no one available worth signing to the money they wanted…
and we will hear stories of Hope and Youth in 2015 and 2016 when Snydergaard gets here…
Cause for most it’s not about what happens it’s about the FO thought proccess getting there….
This is all about Philosophy and the excuses are just time buying till this success they think thier philosophy will bring happens….
A few points / questions:
# 1
Where do I get the 12-14 % interest these days I have seen mentioned on this page – unless I invest in junk bonds that have a high likelihood to default ? I would like to get that interest on my money as well – but with minimal risk please…
# 2
Does anyone have knowledge about how those deferred payments work ? Is money put aside today, invested in some sort of fund – and then paid out with a guaranteed interest at a later point ? With the employer (i.e. Mets) taking the risk that actual interest is lower and having to make up the difference when payments are due and vice versa benefitting from higher actual interest ? Which of course was a great strategy as long as the Madoff money printer worked. Or is this merely a guarantee of future payment and no cash has to be set aside today ? Because the difference is significant: Either you only have to spend 70 to 75 or so million $ in 2013 and are free to do whatever you want with the 25 million or so that you have deferred to the future. Or you need to set aside a big chunk of that 25 million and invest it to be able to meet payment guarantees once they´re due and may only have, say 10 to 15 million to spend on 2013 purposes.
# 3
Regardless of whether the Mets currently have 5 million or 25 million $ available to spend on upgrading the 2013 roster, what is the smartest decision ? Is there any difference maker available that will make this team significantly better and be a good fit going forward as well who is actually worth the money ? Because what you spend today won´t be available tomorrow. For example, signing Michael Bourn to a 4-year, 40 million $ deal may be ok if you believe Bourn ages well. You get a Gold Glove CF at below market value and help your young pitching by improving defense. If you need to pay him 5-years, 75 million, then it´s probably not a smart move as now you´re potentially clogging future payrolls – besides giving up your 2013 1st round pick. In any case, the Mets could – hypothetically – sign every remaining free agent on the market, yet probably still wouldn´t be likely to win 85 games in 2013. Does signing Bourn today improve the odds you are better in 2015 significantly ?
# 4
I don´t see what the current strategy has to do with “Moneyball”. Moneyball was about exploring market inefficiencies to sustain a winning team in spite of not being able to keep all the core players by targetting undervalued assets that were available on the cheap.
# 5
What I have seen here is a classic rebuilding – albeit one step short of an “all out clearance” sale. The Mets have targeted top prospects in key trades that have the potential to be longterm building blocks and significantly lowered payroll in the process to get a fresh start once the young talent traded for, signed and developed is ready to win. What is “Moneyball” about that ??? It´s merely the try of laying a groundwork for a longterm winner and a change of action compared to the MO over the past 20+ years where “quick-fixing” the major league roster was usually the way to go – whether it made sense or not, with a special regard of making the fan base happy by frequently adding a “big name” or two to boost ticket sales.
# 6
And whether the current rebuilding was mainly implemented due to cash flow issues or because of believing it was the right thing to do, it was the right call to make IMHO after 4 straight non-playoff seasons with the existing core and the previous strategy having led to a grand total of 3 playoff appearances (and 3 close misses) in 20 years, in spite of being among the biggest spenders in Baseball. Now, one can certainly argue about that opinion. And one can certainly wonder what would have been possible with a more financially potent ownership group.Or whether the value of each asset was maximized.
#1 – Money Markets, REAL Investment funds, Commodities market Etc…Low risk? Nothing is low risk where money is concerned…Low risk is in the Bond Market and Banking.
#2 – There have been many explanations here of how they work. Not all are done the same way, use the same methodology or structure.
#3 – The Smartest decision is the one that gets the fans to put FAITH in the direction the team is going, That convinces them we are not just making a great team to own but a great team to go see as well. That solves all the money issues once Attendance starts paying the bills and turns a profit that can be used to get more players that get more attendance.
#4 – Moneyball was about cheap players not market inefficiencies. It was about how they FOUND those cheap players and what they looked for to say this cheap player is the guy we want DESPITE the fact the Sabers we used say there were 10 Players better than him on the list the Sabers came up with. I.E. Oakland found OBP to be the undervalued Metric. Of the guys they signed based on that determination how many were in the top 10 of the league in that metric?
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/10/r-i-p-moneyball.html
#5 – No what you have seen here is a classic tearing down and Fire Sale…A CLASSIC REBUILD doesn’t start until your team is the worst team in baseball has no place further down to go that people can say your worse and your due to have the top overall pick (or near it) for a few years that will serve as the BASE of your young CORE that as they get closer to being MLB ready are SUPPLEMENTED by trades of your star players that remain to get more than anyone could possibly draft in 5 years time. And when that core is about a year away from promotion, in a classic rebuild you start to get the few pieces you could NOT DRAFT to fill around the core so they are not put into a situation where Kids have too much pressure on them.
#6 – It’s not smart to say because I didn’t get to the playoffs I should tear the entire team down. It’s about as dumb as saying I have a hole in the living room wall I should tear down the house and start over.
We WERE a 3rd place team in one of the toughest divisions in the NL. On June 22nd we were 2.5 games out of first and in 2nd place…Above the Braves. If you think that is a team that needs rebuilding then your a person who is rebuilding EVERY YEAR until you get to a playoff and then the second your out your playing the Marlins and having a firesale again…How can you rebuild anything If your going to tear it down the second it’s built based on playoffs. You will be chasing your tail for the rest of your life.