26
2012
Alderson Gets High Grades From Mets Ownership
An article by 
I have been hearing how Sandy Alderson will be held accountable for the Mets’ performance this summer and I don’t believe that to be the case, regardless of what happens with David Wright and R.A. Dickey.
Alderson is getting A’s across the board, because those handing out the grades aren’t the fans or the press, or even his colleagues. Grading Alderson are the Wilpons, who are passing him with gold stars because he is doing exactly what is expected of him.
Alderson was brought in here at the urging of Wilpon’s friend, Commissioner Bud Selig, with the purpose of bringing some stability by slashing payroll for a floundering franchise.
To that degree, he has done his job.
Alderson acted to clean up the Mets’ toxic contracts by cutting Oliver Perez, Luis Castillo, and despite it being too late, finally Jason Bay.
He also traded Carlos Beltran for prospect Zach Wheeler, and got rid of Francisco Rodriguez, who embarrassed the team by getting into a fight with his father-in-law outside the family lounge at Citi Field.
Best of all for the Wilpons, is he took the Mets into the 2012 season with a $100 million payroll, some $43 million less than in 2011. A good part of that was because of the decision to let go of Jose Reyes, thereby shedding the Mets of another potentially burdensome contract for a player with an injury history.
Doing so might help the Mets extend the contracts of Wright and Dickey, that is, if the team wants to make that call. As of now, talks seem stagnant.
The Mets have a myriad of holes and issues, with few immediate answers. On the plus side are young pitchers Jon Niese, Matt Harvey and Wheeler to give them a promising rotation from which to build.
Losing Wright and Dickey would be damaging to the Mets on the field, but they will benefit from compensatory draft picks. At worst, the Mets restart their rebuilding program, but they would further reduce payroll.
There are voids in the bullpen and outfield, and also questions in the rotation and at catcher.
Clearly, they are several years away, and based on that Alderson should be strongly judged.
However, the criteria the Wilpons are using to evaluate Alderson is in reducing payroll and toward that end, he is passing the test.
Alderson has already been evaluated by the people whose opinion of him matter most.
About the Author: John Delcos
I am an active member of the BBWAA and have covered Major League Baseball in several capacities for over 20 years, including ten in New York working the Mets' and Yankees' beat. I covered the Baltimore Orioles for eight years and the Cleveland Indians before that. I currently serve as an editor and senior staff writer for Mets Merized Online. Follow me on Twitter @jdelcos.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 22 | 18 | .550 | - |
| Nationals | 22 | 19 | .537 | 0.5 |
| Phillies | 19 | 22 | .463 | 3.5 |
| Mets | 15 | 23 | .395 | 6.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 30 | .268 | 11.5 |
Last updated: 05/17/2013
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Why on earth would you think it a good thing for the Mets to lose Wright and Dickey after the 2013 to get 1 extra draft pick for each? How on earth is that better than trading them for 2-3 high end prospects each? Makes no sense at all.
If the Mets were serious about cutting payroll only they’d trade both for prospects, start them immediately, and do so for minimal money.
The Mets would not get 2-3 high end prospects for Wright or Dickey with each only having 1 year left on their contracts. Niese would get back 2-3 not those 2.
The mets got back Zach Wheeler in exchange for 9 weeks of Carlos Beltran
With 9 weeks left in the season the Indians traded CC Sabathia and got back 2 top prospects + 2 middle prospects
There are NUMEROUS cases of rental players being traded and bringing back top prospects…
CC gave draft picks back to Milwaukee. Beltran did NOT do the same for SF.
And trading Wright before the 2013 season begins would do the same for any other team.
Please tell me again how that is not comparable to CC Sabathia’s Cleveland trade to Milwalkee?
They got back 1 high end prospect for Beltran not 2-3 as PBurke is suggesting. It’s possible if the Mets eat a large chunk of Wrights salary but otherwise you can expect 1 top and then a mid level, not 2-3 top prospects. Those days are few and far between.
What about the possibility of including negotiation windows for Wright and or Dickey? How much could that impact their value?
There is this Adrian Gonzalez guy…he had 1 year remaining on his contract and got traded for 5 prospects, 3 of them were top prospects…
You guys are just building your excuses as to why Sandy cant bring back a haul for David Wright
There are WAY too many examples of a rental bringing back multiple TOP prospects
Was Gonzalez set to make 16 Million? No he was due around 6-6.5 million. Big difference. Did you read the part of my post that said it’s possible if the Mets eat a large chunk of his salary? They’re not getting a haul unless they eat a large chunk of salary. Case closed! I don’t need to make any excuses for Sandy he got back a top pitching prospect for 2 months of Beltran, I’m confident he’d get back a fair return for Wright if he chose to move him.
Other than Matt LaPorta who was the other top prospect that Cleveland got back for CC? Rob Bryson? Zach Jackson? Mike Brantley?
Alderson was brought here to get the budget and big salery’s under control and yes he’s done that. It’s painful to wait for a good team to build mostly from within, but will be worth it. I hate the huge garentee contracts. I’m not saying don’t allow players to get big bucks!! Just make it base salery and incentive driven. As far as what this writer said here. “Losing Wright and Dickey would be damaging to the Mets on the field, but they will benefit from compensatory draft picks.” Your kidding me right? Draft picks??? Dickey and Wright for draft picks??? PLease!!! Even Neise would bring back more then Draft picks if he only had one year left on his contract. I’m not in favor of trading Wright, but Dickey to me is win win if we sign him or trade him. I think the Mets are in a very interesting place right now in the trade market. I see a couple of trade possibly happening. Plus some options on the free market too complement the trades.
Every now and then it’s great to see a sensible comment and Mark you nailed it today. As far as base salaries that are incentive driven vs. guaranteed contracts, we will never see that kind of sensibility in this industry. It won’t happen because of a handful of owners that set the bar. In some cases the ball club isn’t even their primary investment, and only a recreational side investment to feed their egos and have fun with. They have more money than you or I could even fathom, and have ruined the competetive balance of the game by doling out rediculous contracts. But such is the case and this is where we are today.
Strike up the band, the Wilpons love Alderson! Woo hoo, who knew! Wake me up when he does anything resembling anything close to building a championship team.
Oh boy, let’s all be happy that payroll can go down further, even as the TV money rolls in (albeit with empty stands)!
So…. It’s ok to say he doesn’t really give a sh** about the fans or him being a GM for as long as he’s getting paid? Got it… I said the same thing 2 years ago when i started seeing the eamus and the hu’s coming through the door and was called and label a hater. fast forward to today, i was 100% correct on this clown and his intentions on producing a winner/competitive team on the field
Gee what a surprise that they love their flunky. Trading Beltran for a prospect…wow that took a ton of imagination. Dumping unproductive salaries….who could have thought to do that? That’s genius! Yawn. How did that bullpen overhaul work out?? Not so good?
Alderson is the corporate front man for a couple of crooked bozo owners and their “friend” Selig.
Maybe they can next hire the guy who did Elmo’s voice as GM now that he has been charged with all sorts of unsavory acts. He would fit right in with this bunch. He can entertain us with more BS from the owners while doing it with funny voices. Now that’s entertainment.
Evan Longoria just signed a “6yr $100mil extension” TODAY!!!!!!!
IF the Mets re-sign Wright….Its NO WAY we should pay Wright more than that deal..
NO FREAKING WAY!!!!!
YOUR TURN DAVID WRIGHT…lets see if he gets greedy and asks for more than this deal. The Market has been set for 3rd basemen at 6yr $100mil….2 top of the best 3B in the league Zimmerman & Longoria whom are both younger than Wright….Lets see if he really isnt another greedy ball player scratching for more
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/on-base-perception-1.3631854/rays-extend-evan-longoria-now-will-mets-extend-david-wright-1.4260441
You mean the 123.5 Million for the next 9 years (plus club option for the 10th) ?
No I dont mean that 9yr deal with the option for 10….which is by the way an even BETTER deal for the Rays.
I mean the extension!!! which is 6yrs 100mil…..the team came to him to re-up he didnt seek them out he already has a deal and they wanted to expand on it.
By the way if Wright were to re-sign with the Mets this winter it would be considered an extension. In other words if he signs a 7yr deal it would be essentially an 8yr deal….
And Longoria is 3whole years younger.
Just to give some details on the extension:
“The Rays announced that they extended Longoria for an additional six seasons by guaranteeing three club options on his previous deal and adding $100MM in new money to the contract. Longoria will now earn $136MM from 2013-22 under his contract, which includes a club option for 2023.
Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#FZMrTQUBDqxJSIWu.99 “
Dang, my math was off. 136 Mil for 9 years. Come on David, sign for that!!!
…and that was ON TOP of the 9 year deal they gave him 6 days after he made his debut
On April 18, the Rays signed him to a six-year, $17.5 million contract with options for 2014, 2015, and 2016. The first six years of the contract cover his arbitration years, with three more years added by team options. If the team exercises its one-year option for 2014, and then its two-year option for the 2015 and 2016 seasons, the deal could be worth up to $44 million
9 years…44 mil = less than 5 mil per year for a superstar…
now 6 years 100 mil = 15 years 144 mil
The Rays basically got a franchise player for his entire career at less than 9 mil per season
THAT kind of cost control my friends is genius
and this is after they traded Kazmir right when he started to suck…
and punted on Carl Crawford…right before he started to suck…
We all know they love him. He bold face lies in one on one interviews with the media… He takes the heat away from ownership… Tell us something we don’t know… What is that Billy Martin said once…”One’s a born liar, the other is convicted” (He meant that as Reggie Jackson and Steinbrenner) Well, his quote can be applied to this GM and these owners as well… The only difference being the Wilpon’s paid to get out of their inpropriety… LOL.
Anyone that thinks that getting a compensatory pick these buffoon’s of Alderson’s can use to set the franchise back another 2-4 years, should be condemened to watching reruns of the complete 1978 and 1979 Mets’ season… Matter of fact, they will be…the year will just be 2013 and ’14 and ’15. M. Donald Alderson and Lorinda De Wilpon. LOL… What a fuc!@i*! joke…
Sorry to change the subject, (the same subject as we have here everyday, SA bashing) I saw a piece on SI.com that the Royals are ready to part with Myers, the best hitting prospect in MLB for an Ace to front their staff as they feel thats all they need to compete now in their division.
and that bothers you? Why? The guy has done a catastrophe job since getting here, the team is getting worse (this off season pending) and you want to believe is that the only reason he was brought here was to cut payroll and ignore the roster? No wonder. That’s just an excuse for his absolutely HORRIFIC baseball decision making which is due to his beliefs and philosophy.
A regular GM would have made smarter baseball moves with the same resources. My last sentence just doesn’t seem to get through some people’s heads..i guess because they don’t allow it.
dont you get tired of saying the same thing everyday?
David wright is not the FRANCHISE caliber player longoria is at this stage of their career and longoria took a huge discount to stay with the team. That shows loyatly and a sense of not being greedy. let’s see if wright realizes he’s not that good of a player to be asking the mets for anything more than $80 million for 6 years and we can end this situation as quickly as possible… IMHO the man should be traded
I know your feelings on Wright but aren’t you maybe overrating Longoria at this point? He’s missed a ton of time the last two years and has averaged around a .260 BA the last 2 years.
2011
Wright- 102games .255Avg 14HR 66RBI .345obp
Longoria – 133games .244avg 33HR 99RBI .355obp
2012
Wright-156games .306avg 21hr 93rbi .391obp
Longoria-77games .289 17hr 55rbi .369obp
(longo played less than half the games Wright did and still almost put up similar HR’s/ power numbers)
Wright 30yrs old
Longoria 27 yrs old
At this point in their careers i take Longoria everytime a season lost to Injury doesnt bring a players rating down…
Besides are we just gonna forget the past 3-SEASONS where Wright was terrible???
Age doesn’t factor in here because he is signing a 6 year extension that doesn’t start for what 3 more years?
Again, I don’t think Wright is a franchise player. I just think that the last 2 years injuries have made me think Longoria isn’t either.
I would take Longoria’s lower batting AVG, lower numbers but getting the job done when you need it the most, winning attitude, gritty play, and leadership ANYDAY over Wright and his stat padding or as I call him – Mr. June. Remember when he got in BJ Upton’s face for lack of hustle? Wright would never do that.
Longoria is a man’s player, Wright is a soccer mom’s, metrosexual new yorker’s kind of player
“Wright is a soccer mom’s, metrosexual new yorker’s kind of player:”
This place just gets nuttier by the day. Never thought I would read that line on a Mets baseball board.
Well if it bothers you than I suggest responding to the context of what i’m saying. And that’s all i’m saying because i’m not going to waste everybody’s time by turning this board into my own by going on an endless back and forth – which is your M. O.
Have your last word.
Bayonne, you KNOW he would get the last words.. He needs that!
And you know you would butt in.
Again, I just found the comment a little quirky. You didn’t answer my question above. I agree that Wright isn’t a franchise player. Are you still sold on Longoria being one is my question.
Bay this says it ALL….exactly what you said earlier
Wrights 2010-2011 season is comparable to Longorias 2011-2012 seasons
BUT Ultimately where the difference between Wright and Longo come in is how the team plays with him in the lineup vs when he isnt in the lineup.
Matt Snyder of CBS Sports wrote:
*******************************************************************************************************
The Rays’ 42-44 record this season without Evan Longoria speaks volumes. Is Evan Longoria baseball’s most valuable player? No, I’m not suggesting he win Mike Trout’s seemingly-already-awarded 2012 AL MVP, I’m just wondering what it is about Longoria that makes the Rays world beaters when he’s in the lineup and mediocre when he’s not.
“Seriously, it’s uncanny. The Rays opened the season 15-8 before Longoria hit the disabled list. That’s a pace of 106-56. But then Longoria went down with a serious hamstring injury and the Rays proceeded to go 42-44 with him on the shelf. Longoria returned Aug. 7 and since then the Rays have gone 11-3.
So with Longoria on the active roster, the Rays are 26-11, which is a full-season pace of 114-48. Without him, they have a full-season pace of 79-83. Even with the (buzzword alert) small sample when Longoria’s on the active roster, that’s an absurd discrepancy.”
*******************************************************************************************************
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/19866319/power-rankings-with-longoria-in-lineup-rays-might-be-baseballs-best-team
When Wright was out almost half the season in 2011 the Mets played above .500 ball with Reyes, Beltran but when they traded Beltran upon Wrights arrival the mets sank quickly. Same thing this year we were below .500…..
Wright is a complimentary player Longoria is that superstar talent that can and does carry a team because he is a RUN PRODUCER.
Dang, I could have sworn I already read this.
Why does it bother YOU that i re-posted it to bring it to Bayonnes attention…I didnt repost it to you
LOL, it’s a blog. You posted it to the entire world. Either way. I think we all got your point already. I think Longoria is better than Wright. I already said that. I just think that we may be overrating him a little considering his injuries the last 2 years.
This guy TRS86 wastes so much time responding to people with non-baseball or off -topic responses it’s a drag. He just may be the worst at it. Of all this guy’s comments what percentage is judging the poster, making a wise-crack, judging the poster’s response, or any other off-topic response you can think of.
It’s a big pain especially if your connection happens to be slow, you click on the “recent comments” section hoping it takes you to an interesting response and it winds up being nothing more than a judgement on a poster, their response, or some other off topic comment by this guy. I’d say more than HALF of his responses are short retorts of a personal nature or personal observation that has nothing to do with the original topic
Yet somehow mine are at least coherent.
I can see you are looking to quarrel over a NON ISSUE that has absolutely nothing to do with you.
Again i posted it to BAYONNE to bring it to HIS attention not TRS or anyone else specifically.
You on the other hand could only “HOPE ” that I or anyone else would re-post comment on your blogsite …matter of fact you’d be ecstatic if u could get 1 extra post over there at “LONELY ISLAND…LOL….I know you’re like Tom Hanks over there stranded on that island with WILSON lmao….
See I love how when you guys run of of anything to say you insult another blog that you know nothing about. Honestly most likely the reason that the blog has been around for 3.5 years is because people like you stay away from it. Although you are welcome anytime. It’s just instead of being run off by the irrational, you would be run off by the intelligent.
INTELLEGENT???
lmao…The 4 people who post over there at the Lonely island post here on this site EVERYDAY…And repeating over and over and over and over that
1.The Mets have no money
2.Blame the Wilpons
3.Im not gonna judge Sandy Alderson yet
4. Omar did a horrible job with the minors, boy Sandy did a good job with Matt Harvey,Tejada etc
And the Coup de grâce most popular comment that your INTELLIGENT army loves to use is
5. “THIS”
LMAO….
Thanks for reading I guess but you must have missed a lot while you were there. There are similar topics to what is discussed here.
Some want Wright signed, some traded.
Some want Dickey signed, some traded.
Some want both signed, both traded.
Some are patient on Alderson and some want him gone.
Some are optimistic about the Mets future and some believe they are doomed.
Again, I am not too concerned with your opinion on the blog. It’s still going strong with or without you.
Bay he cries and whines about others arguing all the time but he always seems to be the one smack in the middle of almost ALL MMO controversies. He tried to bait you it Alex intervened it didnt work so he came to me. And he always claims he’s a victim and he’s supposed to be a teacher smh…He might be the substitute than sits around all day scratching his………
What in the hell is all this baiting stuff here. I have never read or been part of another adult conversation that centered so much around baiting. Are you guys not capable of being responsible for your own actions? Do you always have to blame someone else for your own behavior?
“Thanks for reading I guess but you must have missed a lot while you were there.”
Dont flatter yourself I dont visit the last time ive been there was when you were whining that i called it the Sahara and told me to go there and check it out before i judge it…in which i did and told you that you set it up to look eerily similar to MMO.
“Again, I am not too concerned with your opinion on the blog. It’s still going strong with or without you.”
Of course youre not concerned with anyones view thats why you dont get traffic. And if it were going SO STRONG as you say you wouldnt be here on MMO as much as you always are. I’d even go as far as saying you might post the MOST comments here on this site than any other poster. Im sure Joe D spends time on other blogs but i doubt he spends as much time at any other blog than he does on his own site.
I cant say the same 4 you!
Yeah, I can multitask with the best of them
Also, are you saying that we should care what one poster at another blog thinks about our site? Do you think that Joe cares about what is said about his blog on another site and if he doesn’t then he should? LOL. Come on, get a grip. Your opinion, just like mine here, is completely meaningless to the owners of another blog.
I should have known that when you are saying you know what happens at another blog you were as usual talking out of your arse. Again, thanks for that one click though!
Wright was terrible the last 3 seasons? LOL, Talk about idiotic comments.
Thats funny i say the same thing about all your posts
Except you rarely know what you’re talking about.
LOL
Longoria in 74 games had almost as many HR as Wright did in 150
and that was with the smaller Citifield dimensions…
and in terms of avg. for the past 2 years
Wright hit .254 in 2011 and .306 in 2012…
and defensively…Wright’s defensiveWAR in 8 years is 0.3
Longoria’s defensiveWar is 8.4
Offensively, Wright avg 5WAR, Longoria 4WAR
the difference in defense is enough to say that Longoria is a much better investment than Wright.
Either way, this will not affect Wright’s negotiations with other teams.
What the mets SHOULD do however is look at how successful teams invest in their players like Longoria…and know when to let em go like Crawford, Garza and Kazmir
You have to recognize talent when you see it, then invest in it properly
DePo passed up on Jose Fernandez and Courtney Hawkins.
You might say we are judging too early…
but after looking at the disasterous drafts he had in SD…and now looking at what he passed up on and who he passed them up for…u can see why folks are jumping the gun
Wrights 2010-2011 season is comparable to Longorias 2011-2012 seasons
BUT Ultimately where the difference between Wright and Longo come in is how the team plays with him in the lineup vs when he isnt in the lineup.
Matt Snyder of CBS Sports wrote:
*******************************************************************************************************
The Rays’ 42-44 record this season without Evan Longoria speaks volumes. Is Evan Longoria baseball’s most valuable player? No, I’m not suggesting he win Mike Trout’s seemingly-already-awarded 2012 AL MVP, I’m just wondering what it is about Longoria that makes the Rays world beaters when he’s in the lineup and mediocre when he’s not.
“Seriously, it’s uncanny. The Rays opened the season 15-8 before Longoria hit the disabled list. That’s a pace of 106-56. But then Longoria went down with a serious hamstring injury and the Rays proceeded to go 42-44 with him on the shelf. Longoria returned Aug. 7 and since then the Rays have gone 11-3.
So with Longoria on the active roster, the Rays are 26-11, which is a full-season pace of 114-48. Without him, they have a full-season pace of 79-83. Even with the (buzzword alert) small sample when Longoria’s on the active roster, that’s an absurd discrepancy.”
*******************************************************************************************************
When Wright was out almost half the season in 2011 the Mets played above .500 ball with Reyes, Beltran but when they traded Beltran upon Wrights arrival the mets sank quickly. Same thing this year we were below .500…..
Wright is a complimentary player Longoria is that superstar talent that can and does carry a team because he is a RUN PRODUCER.
I agree. Wright might be the face of the franchise but he isnt a franchise player. Even the defenders of Wright all claim he needs players around him to produce. Ironic, when the Yankees died in the playoffs Jeter was still hitting. That is the difference. Wright has let the 2nd half collapses the last few years. Even if the team went to crap the 2nd half, Wright could have done better than .250 or whatever he hit.
The fact that there is even a discussion of such an absurd contract without testing the trade waters tells me that the Wilpons are calling the shots and are intent on resigning Wright.
yeah sure,
If it’s a bad move than the Wilpons are responsible. I can see it now:
Sandy Alderson is advising the Wilpons (the job he was hired to do) that the best course going forward is to sign Wright. And the Wilpons say no.
OR
The Wilpons are the ones that want to sign Wright (which i highly doubt) and Sandy is the one advising them NOT to sign Wright, but the Wilpons are going to anyway.
Whichever decision is made BOTH are on board in my opinion.
You dont follow what goes on. Alderson has flat out stated he does not approve of giving huge, long term contracts for the 2nd contract. He does not mind with the younger players and locking them up for 5 or 6 years. But when a player is nearing 30, he is against doing this. Yet, while the waters are tested for value on Dickey, reports are the Mets arent talking to anyone about Wright. Plus, Jeff came out weeks ago saying that Wright could be an ambassador for the team replacing Seaver.
Any rational person can see who is making the call on this one.
Okay i get it now,
If talks break down (and I hope they do) then Alderson talked the Wilpon’s out of it. OH i know that’s the next version that’s in queue.
The same Wilpon’s that signed Jason Bay, that signed Oliver Perez, & that signed Luis Castillo..and the same Wilpon’s that signed Pedro Martinez, right?
No if talks break down it has nothing to do with Alderson since he isnt calling the shots. Jeff is running the show with Wright. If they break down it is because he didnt want to go for the deal. And that is why I am convinced Wright will get his extension…the Wilpons want him in a Mets uniform.
I highly doubt there is a situation developing where Sandy Alderson is advising the Wilpon’s not to sign Wright but they go against him and sign him. I HIGHLY doubt Sandy Alderson would want to be a part of that and if he is than he’s less a man than his predecessors.
If Wright signs they are BOTH on board.
That’s a good question. I honestly think Omar was backed into the Bay signing so I am not so sure that is always the case. Most moves, yeah the GM.
The question of signing Wright is not a money issue. its a baseball issue.
The mets have MORE than enough cushion to afford Wright for the next 7 years.
The Mets DO NOT have enough cushion to afford Wright and 3 other top level 2nd generation contracts in the next 7 years
If the mets do not sign Wright, they will have very low attendance in 2013, 2014—> is a gamble
If the the mets DO sign Wright, they have low attendance in 2014…and probably low attendance for the next few years after
NY wants winners. We had 9 All-Stars in the 2009 Met team, and by september the place was a graveyard
How something so simple becomes so complex is what boggles me
I feel like im talking to a bunch of emotional females when i try to explain the logic of the NY competitive sports fan
Bay was definitely a Jeff Wilpon move. Do you honestly believe Omar wanted to sign Jason Bay over Matt Holliday? Not a chance in hell. The Mets signed Bay not because they thought he’d be the better fit in Citifield, they signed him because it cost them 3 less years and a million less per year.
Honestly, I think Omar wanted pitching. Of course, then he would have signed Lackey and it would have been Bay times 2.
Hi Fonzie,
You are probably correct on that point for this was the first winter after the Madoff scandal – KRod, Putz and others occurred only as the news was beginning to break.
Omar’s plan “A” for a top notch starting pitcher was well publicized and as fans saw that was not happening they were already beginning to question how much the Wilpons really lost and that Bay was really more or less Jeff’s idea so not to lose stature.
LOL attacking the guys manhood. That shows what level you exist at.
As for reality, there are many times when owners go against the advice of their employees. Just look at Cashman and the deals for Soriano and ARod. Those not his deals and he was flat out against them. The Steinbrenners were correct on Soriano but seem to missed the mark with ARod.
But I guess Cashman is less of a man too because he didnt stand up and force the Steinbrenners to do what he wanted with THEIR money.
Obviously the owner is going to have some impact and at times override a GM. The GM works for the owner, not the other way around. You don’t have ANY GM’s overriding an owner though. LOL.
I’m not talking about other situations. I already know that not every situation/relationship is the same.
I know that. I’ve already said that.
I’m talking specifically about this situation and I will repeat – i highly doubt Sandy Alderson is going to advise Jeff Wilpon NOT to sign David Wright and Wilpon goes ahead and signs him anyway. If he is signed it is with Sandy’s suggestion/blessing as well. I don’t happen to think Sandy Alderson would have taken the job if his baseball suggestions on what’s best for the organization moving forward would be overruled by Jeff Wilpon. Especially this.
You just want to defend Alderson. That’s all. And i did not attack anyone’s manhood, flaskmaster. Just stick to what i’m saying and not the extenuating stuff.
Once again with the names.
And once again you are incorrect. Alderson is not blessing a 6 or 7 year contract. If that is what Wright gets, it is because the Wilpons decided that. Plain and simple. The fact of the matter is Alderson is not even allowed to shop Wright to see his worth on the market. That alone tells you it is in the Wilpon’s hands. Alderson is an anal as they come…no way he enters into a situation without investigating all his options. Dickey is a prime example. The Mets are out there figuring what his worth is. That makes sense. With Wright, nothing.
Regardless of how Alderson got the job, his check is signed by the Wilpons. That is how things work.
Task, if you believe the reports that the Mets aren’t checking to see what Wright would command in a trade… I disagree.
Of course they are…this is the exact same scene when Wilpon entered the picture in 1980. Few on here want to acknowledge what took place the first few years under Cashen. Shall we revisit some of the moves he made his first couple years as Mets GM:
Free Agent Signings:
1980 Staub, Mike Cubbage, Terry Leach, Dyer Miller, Bill Almon
1981 Dave Roberts, Mike Marshall
Trades:
1980 Traded for Randy Jones
1981 Traded for Ellis Valentine, Dave Kingman
1982 Traded George Foster, Tom Hausman, Danny Heep
Not exactly a set of prolific moves. The most successful move was trading one of the better players in Mazzilli to Texas for Darling and Terrell (who later was moved for HoJo). The rest were just moves trying to fill in holes with non-consequential pieces.
Financial problems might have been the stimulus for the shift but at least the Mets are starting to make baseball decisions. That is why I hope the Wilpons stay out of the Wright situation because sign him to an absurd contract to placate the fan base is not going to fare well long term. If Wright or Dickey can be unloaded for multiple pieces, the Mets need to do that. We have seen this script before, let’s hope it works out the same.
taskmaster4450,
There is one big thing you are overlooking….
You’re failing to mention that Cashen didnt inherit nearly as talented a lineup that Sandy Alderson did so Cashen had NOTHING to work with.
Especially during that time where Free agency wasnt really a factor either due to the Owners collectively agreeing not to sign free agents….collusion!!!
The collusion was not until the mid 80s.
As for FA, do the names Dave Winfield, Dave Collins, and Steve Kemp ring a bell. They were all FAs signed by George during the period I was mentioning. And while Alderson had some better players, he also inherited a terrible financial situation that Cashen didnt have.
I honestly don’t know why we even try to compare situations. I guess the same reason that we have to label players as the next… each situation is different. Thus comparing Omar to Steve Phillips or Cashen to Sandy or whatever the case may be is a moot point due to the different circumstances each faced.
Okay so let me ask you this question – what situation would you prefer to have that would lead you to have a winning team in New York sooner?
Cashen’s situation? Or Alderson’s?
I would take the situation that Alderson inherited despite the lack of funds because he inherited a roster and a decent minors and I think a good GM could get that team into the post season faster than what Frank Cashen had to work with.
And if Alderson’s situation was better than Cashen’s despite the “alleged” small amount of money than why does it appear it may take this Mets team LONGER to reach the post season than Cashen’s Mets…and Alderson (hopefully) won’t even be here as well!
What about you?
Longer than Cashen’s Mets to reach the post season? Let us reflect. They made it in 1986…they were competitive in 1984….Cashens 5th years. Alderson is entering year 3. For him to equal that, the Mets need to be in the post season by 2017.
and that sound just about right. It will be a few years from Alderson’s removal and the damage was fixed so 2017 sounds about right.
Alderson was hired end of 2010 so the fall of 2017 would be 7 years – and he won’t be here anyway (hopefully)
So if the Mets make the post season in 2018 that’s the 7th season after Alderson’s initial hire. Too long. Much too long. And he had more to work with.
Wrong.
Sandy’s 2011 Mets ( which he inherited ) did not take 5 years to be competitive, they took 5 weeks to be competitive.
In 2011, the Mets in July were in 2nd place, and as close as 5.5 games out of the wild card spot.
4 months earlier Sandy said that if the mets were in contention, the team would have enough money to make additions during the season.
Sandy did the complete opposite
Then even worse, rather than keeping Izzy, who WANTED to stay here for 2012, he lets Izzy go. Izzy was considered by many to be a very positive influence on the bullpen.
Sandy has absolutely no interest in fielding a good team. He is a numbers guy. plain and simple
Frank Cashen did not take nearly as much heat with the Mazilli trade for a number of reasons
1) His past moves showed he was not giving anybody lip service but trying to make the Mets competitive once again. He was doing a lot of wheeling and dealing for good players – plus, to appease many a Met fan, had also re-acquired an aging Rusty Staub and Dave Kingman. When he talked about a five year plan it included all three options – trades, free agency AND building from within. Nobody questioned his motives – and that is the flack that Alderson is getting now.
2) With the earlier acquisition of George Foster and Ellis Valentine, plus the emergence of Mookie Wilson in center, Maz was seen as the odd-man out. Though both Maz and Valentine were coming off poor seasons, Ellis did have more power and was more consistent with the bat throughout his career than Maz What the Mets were giving up was the advantage of a switch hitter with speed who could field his position in center better than Valentine did in right.
3) The Mets did need starting pitching and both Darling and Terrel were highly regarded prospects.
4) And he had not ripped apart a team that was still competitive like we saw done today.
Cashen most certainly did rip apart a competitive team. After he built the championship team he slowly dismantled it. Orosco, McDowell, Dykstra, Mitchell, Knight (Let walk), Darling, Backman, Mookie, Aguilera, Tapani, Strawberry (Let walk) all traded away. They went from a 91 win team in 1990 to a 77 win team in 1991. He tried to build a team around Greg Jeffries and dismatled a playoff caliber team.
HI Fonzie,
I was addressing the issue you brought up – that of 1982 when Lee Mazilli was traded. You did not mention anything about years later and so I never commented on it.
Well you kind of brought it up yourself. I never mentioned anything about tearing apart a competitive team but yet you did. Cashen tore apart an actual competitive team where as Sandy tore away 4 players from a sub 500 tam that was paid like world beaters.
Hi Fonzie,
But still, I was addressing the 1982 only with breaking up a competitive team as one of many factors that would not have had fans yelling and screaming at Cashen in the same manner as today if we had the internet and other innovations of communication that we had today.
You are right to bring up how he did destroy a competitive team later on, but not in the context of it appearing as if you were correcting something I had said. I agree with you regarding the moves made after clinching the 2006 world championship.
Bayonne – It’s actually a good question. And I’d like to give you my answer and hope it’s accepted as a discussion point?
I’d prefer Cashen’s and let me tell you why.
Every GM who comes into a team wants to (or should want to) put their own stamp on the franchise right? You want ownership to have enough patience to go through the bad with you long enough to see your vision come to life.
Draft:
Cashen was given 5 years starting in 1980 right? Cashen came into a job with a highly touted high school player on the draft board named Darryl Strawberry. A game changer. A guy you start to build your franchise around. It’s the same reason why I think Omar was in a better spot than Alderson because he inherited two young stars waiting to break out.
By the time Cashen came aboard, the Mets had 3 straight 95+ losing years. The expectations were not what they are today.
Cashen inherited such a bad team that he was also able to draft Gooden with the 5th pick in 82. Think about that and compare it to Alderson.
Do people like you have enough patience to allow Alderson to earn a #4, #5, #4, and #1 pick in 4 straight years and then WHIFF on THREE of them?
The answer is no because people today would look at the 83 pick of Eddie Williams, scroll down to #19 and say “way to miss on Roger Clemens!”
Cashen’s tenure over the Mets is nothing to write about if he doesn’t inherit the Strawberry pick and have the allowance to be so bad that he also gets Gooden.
Trades:
When Cashen got rid of Mazzilli, fans were mad right?
But that deal got the Mets Ron Darling so without 24/7 news feed there was way less heat on Cashen than say on Alderson in the Wheeler/Beltran deal. Eventually, Cashen was right. But some people today don’t care what Wheeler does eventually, even though if he’s as good as Jon Niese (at minimum) then Alderson was right.
He made big moves for Keith and Carter as an example – but he also made them when his two foundation pieces were ready to explode.
So if you ask me today I’d prefer Cashen because he was given a blank slate practically.
Jessep there was a radio show in the late 70′s and early 80′s, The Art Russ Jr sports talk show. I believe it was 770 AM not really sure but that show would be on for an hour or so at night and when Cashen traded Mazzilli for 2 minor leaguers people were calling into that show wanting Cashens head on a spit. Believe me if there were blogs and WFAN and other social media outlets Cashen would’ve gotten the same heat that Alderson is getting because there were a lot of fans not happy with how long it was taking the Mets to show any sign of improvement. They showed very little signs until Strawberry was called up and then Keith was traded for a few weeks later. That BTW was in Cashens 4th season at the helm.
You bring up the main difference between the two eras. In the early 80s fans werent as tuned into what is going on. Now, with the 24 hour media and a website covering everything under the sun, GMs in all sports live under the microscope. So many are accustomed to instant gratification, that is they dont get it, they throw a fit. We will witness that during the holiday shopping rush when people throw fits if they dont get their preferred toy immediately.
In reality though, how much heat is Alderson actually getting? Remember we live in the blogger world where everyone, almost, is a diehard and opinionated. I don’t think the common fan is as upset with Sandy as a person as what you might read among the walls of MMO.
Most of the heat he gets comes from MMO. There are some on other blogs but not like here. Cashen did catch heat after the Mazzilli trade but you wouldn’t know it like you would today. Cashen would be going through the same thing here if it was he and not Sandy. Cashens free agent signings were small. Rafael Santana types. That would go over well here. lol.
Cashen got plenty of hea and truth is it was only recently that people have tried to point to that trade as a great one.
Sure we got Darling and eventually HoJo out of it….
Which one was the pivitol guy who made the 86 Mets a success?
Which one did more than Gooden and Strawberry or Hernandez or even Gary Carter?
Sure Cashen took a lot of heat and maybe more than he was justified in taking.
But these days it would seem people are making the deal for Mazilli as if it is a fine example of what we could get for Wright and Dickey…
And when you look at that deal in it’s proper pespective you didn’t get back as much as some would suggest.
Darling had three really good years
83, 85 and 86.
Only years with an ERA below 3 in an era when having an ERA above 3 was considered not anything special.
HoJo was actually the better player of the two but they pretty much won nothing with him.
I love them both and the deal for Mazilli may have been not as bad as people thought at the time but by the same token it wasn’t the stroke of genius people seem to want to make it out to be these days.
You got what you gave and none of it was the thing that made the 86 Mets the 86 Mets.
What DID make the 86 Mets was hitting on two of 5 Top 10 First round picks in Strawberry and Gooden.
And trading a scrub reliever for the leader Hernandez, More scrubs for Carter, and signing Ray Knight who was a big part of the swagger in the 86 lockeroom that once cast aside in favor of HoJo was lost forever….
Right but my point is as mad as people may have been about the Mazzilli trade it doesn’t even compare to the access to voice your frustrations that we have today.
My point was inheriting a #1 pick and then going four straight seasons picking in the top 5 after that is much different than anything Alderson has done. You have the LUXURY of looking at Cashen’s record after the fact.
If the Mets finished in the bottom 5 of baseball in 2011 and 2012 and then again in 2013 and 2014 – you’d all be losing it on this site.
That’s why I’d prefer Cashen’s gig. He was handed the rights to a foundation piece and dealt with way less scrutiny due to the times than Alderson is today.
People here are mad at Alderson for finishing with 85 or 88 loses. Add 10 losses to that and you have Cashen’s first 3 *full* seasons.
Ron Darling by the way finished in the Top 5 of Cy Young voting in 1986. Mazzilli from 82-86: 82-86 248 average 5HR 21 RBI.
I’d say Darling was a pretty good get in that trade
“If the Mets finished in the bottom 5 of baseball in 2011 and 2012 and then again in 2013 and 2014 – you’d all be losing it on this site.”
Right because we didn’t start at the bottom the way Cashen did!
Cashen didn’t put us there thats where we were when he started which is WHY he had all those top 10 First rounders to work with.
THAT is the time you purge what you have and rebuild. When you are already as low as you can go and no trade can make you worse than you already are!
Not when you just finished in 3rd place because of massive injuries and missing players not because those players when healthy are good ones but they just got hurt.
And Cashen didn’t give up on putting people int he seats when he got here either…
He went after and got Kingman and Foster as bad as they were at the time of the deals it gave fans some hope and reason to attend. And they were done WHILE he was rebuilding.
He didn’t need to just hire scrubs to cheap contracts hoping to save for a rainy day where he could go and buy the top 3 Free Agents on the market one year and hope they worked out.
You guy bitch about what Omar spent yet he didn’t buy FAs for the sake of spending money until Bay happened….
And thinking that by saving money you will get that year where we spend and win is even dumber than what Omar did because these days there aren’t that many top guys worth buying in any given year.
SO yes there are more places to vent these days but that just means Cashen got off easy…
Many want to call him a genius but anyone who was there and buying season tickets knows it was those 2 out of 5 picks (less than 50% hit rate) on those top 10 first rounders and one deal for Hernandez that Cashen lives by and when you take the entire resume of his work here it all gets offset by things like Purging Knight, Juan Samuel, and the best team money could buy wyhen he wass still an advisor and let it all happen.
Truth is Cashen is getting elevated above his resume the same way Sandy is around here.
Here’s the big difference between Alderson and Chasen. Chasen said it would take time before the Mets got on track. Alderson said he would not look past 2011 and he was optimistic about the team.
Alderson set the standard for himself. If he said, “we are going to rebuild, and it will take a lot of time before we can be competitve”, then everyone of course wouldn’t be giving him “heat”.
Alderson either failed or lied to the fans, so I don’t know how we are the bad guys for being disapointed in him so far. He set the standard for himself, and so far hasn’t lived up to it. That’s his fault; not ours.
So you think the plan is to build a team as bad as the ones in the 70′s so we can get draft picks to do what Cashen did?
Thats the plan?
I have to say I hate it but it sure does appear to be the first accurate description of the plan Sandy seems to be operating under….
Make the team suck so bad we get all the top 10 draft picks for half a decade….
I think you have finally figured out what the plan is and it’w seems to agree with what I have said he is doing since he got here…
MAKING THIS TEAM WORSE!
Thank you for finally coming around to our side of the argument.
Sure is the way to build a long term competitive team like the Phillies and Braves did.
As I used to argue with Tagee constantly…
It’s not your abilityto draft or smarts in evaluating players…
It’s all about sucking for a decade or a half and collecting all those top picks to build with.
I feel vindicated that now you see what I meant.
Bayonne I’d say Alderson should have the Mets back into a contending team faster than it took Cashen but not by much, maybe a year sooner. Cashen took his 5th season as GM to put a winner on the field in 1984. I think 2014 could be the 1984 of the present say Mets if they add a couple of veteran bats like cashen did with Keith and Kid and if of course the Harvey’s and Wheeler’s are the real deal.
Lets not forget that even though Cashen took over a worse team on the field and a weak but not totally barren minor league system. The 1986 Mets had 4 players that were on the roster that were there before Cashen. Orosco, Mookie, Wally and Rick Anderson albeit for 1 year as a RH reliever. He also traded guys like Hubie Brooks, Neil Allen, Mike Fitzgerald and Lee Mazzilli for Carter, Hernandez, Darling and Terrell and then HoJo. So Cashen did have some valuable pieces left to him when he took over that were still on the championship team and used for pieces that were on the championship team.
In 2011, Alderson also did not have to win the division, the wild-card was not around in 1980.
In 2011, Alderson had RA Dickey, Carlos Beltran, Jose Reyes, K-Rod, Izzy, and a MUCH more productive team than the 1980 Mets..
There is no point in comparing the 2 situations, but if you did, Sandy looks worse not better
He inherited a talented lineup that finished 13th in runs scored in the NL. Again Collusion played no part in why Cashen did not sign free agents. Collusion didn’t happen until 1986-87. Free agency was there for the taking a Cashen chose to stay on the path of rebuilding the farm system.
He may have inherited a team that ultimately finished 13th in runs scored but remember – what he inherited and what ultimately finished are 2 different things. The guy did NOTHING to improve what he inherited. And finishing 13th in runs scored is just a statistic and not the whole story.
What he finished with almost the same because he did nothing to help it. In my opinion another GM would have had different results because they would have went about building the team with their limited resources much better than Alderson did. That’s my point and nobody can prove otherwise.
Nobody can prove it either way so it’s all moot. He signed 13 guys for about 10 million dollars so it’s easy to say someone else could’ve done better. On paper that lineup may look good but realistically it wasn’t. Bay looks good on paper but he sucked. Pagan had one good year to that point. No one knew if Beltran was even going to be ready by opening day especially when he missed all of spring training except for the last 5 days so he could’nt be counted on over the winter. Ike was still wet behind the ears to be calling him a lock, 2B was a black hole. Jose came off a down year in 2010. Wright was better in 2010 than he was in 09 but he still wasn’t the same and we had an unknown quanity behind the plate. That’s not a good lineup. That’s an “IF” lineup. If Bay rebounds, If Ike progresses, If beltran is healthy, If Pagan can put up back to back seasons, If Reyes rebounds, if Wright rebounds, If we find a decent 2Bman, if Thole progresses. Thats’s a lot of ifs. It may have been better than the 1980 team but it still wasn’t a good team.
The Frenzy from Darryl Strawberry being the 1st pick >>>>> Any move Sandy Alderson has done here
SideNote:
40% of the the top 10 1981 draft picks eventually played for the mets
( this does not include David Cone, Sid Fernandez or Frank Viola )
You are kidding right? Comparing the drafting of Straw with the number pick to what Alderson has done is like attacking Omar for his drafts and missing out on Strasburg and Harper. Sorry if the Mets didnt have the first pick in the draft the last two years but I would say that is hardly Aldersons fault. And let us not forget that Cashen had another couple of picks in the 1980 draft and they turned into Billy Beane and John Gibbons. Not exactly all star picks.
As for your 40% of the fist 10 picks, let us state it truthfully…4 picks made it from the 1981 top 10 draft. But here is my question…how many were in the major leagues by the start of Cashens 3rd year (January 1983)? The correct answer is 0.
And why did you pick 1981 when 1980 and 1982 were more successful in terms of first 10 rounds who made it to the majors (including Roger Clemons and Rafael Palmiero who werent signed)?
I’m not talking about other situations. I already know that not every situation/relationship is the same.
I know that. I’ve already said that.
I’m talking specifically about this situation and I will repeat – i highly doubt Sandy Alderson is going to advise Jeff Wilpon NOT to sign David Wright and Wilpon goes ahead and signs him anyway. If he is signed it is with Sandy’s suggestion/blessing as well. I don’t happen to think Sandy Alderson would have taken the job if his baseball suggestions on what’s best for the organization moving forward would be overruled by Jeff Wilpon. Especially this.
You just want to defend Alderson. That’s all.
Bay, lets try to figure out why the hell he took the job to start with.
Was he bored of his current job?
Was it his ego in bringing the Mets back?
Was it that he believed in what the Wilpons wanted to do?
Did he need the money?
Was he “encouraged by Selig”? Most, I believe, choose the last one. If so, what is the payoff? Is there any truth to the conspiracy that this sets him up for a chance at the comish job?
I think Sandy sucks
I think the Wilpons suck more
But in THIS case…I think the ONLY person who would not want to sign DW to that long term contract is Sandy.
He traded Ricky Henderson back when Ricky wanted a long term deal, and only traded for him again once the A’s were making money and in 1st place in 1989.
Its possible that the only reason this hasnt been done yet, is because Sandy is saying no.
Signing David Wright, every soccer mom’s wet dream is exactly what the Wilpons would do.
With that being said, Sandy does suck at most of the things a GM is supposed to do.
Mainly because he was not brought here to be a GM, and being a GM is something no team in baseball sees any need for Sandy to be.
To get away from the same discussion every single day regardless of the post.
If the Mets either trade Wright or let his contract expire and he puts up numbers similar to this season what does he get on the open market? I honestly have no idea if another team would pay him more than the Mets rumored offer or what teams would be able and willing.
I’ll say 6/120 – 7/140. He’s getting paid. And on the open market, someone will step up to pay Wright big time. No doubt.
I think it would most likely be around 5/100 and then option years that most likely get it up to 7/140.
again, REPORTS say wright is looking for $125 million extension… which, along with his $16 million this year will total $141 million, automatically making him the highest met ever to be paid.. yeah, i am sure he’s not greedy or egotistical, those reports are just that…
Again, the man cares about his ego as much as anyone else. he’s just another greedy player who say the right things when the lights are on, but behind the scene they all see green. I am glad this guy is david wright and not reyes, otherwise it’d be a mutiny of mets fans calling for his head RIGHT now..
Not sure why we need to bring in Reyes again but as for the Wright negotiations it is going to be very interesting how all this plays out. Just like with Reyes from Wright’s perspective, I hope he gets every penny he can. I never have thought badly about a player trying to make as much money as possible. Like the owners aren’t doing the same damn thing.
In the long-term, Sandy probably saved the business for the Wilpons. He didn’t just slash payroll, he downsized the organization throughout with the help of CRG, cut costs all over the place and who knows what regarding the re-financing of the loans the Wilpons need to pay (even though SNY was used as collateral, Sandy’s legal and business expertise had to at least be used if nothing more than in the capacity of a “consultant”. He’s also helped reduce the annual financial losses which last year he claimed was at $70 million. The Mets are also solvent enough to be able to meet their financial obligations for the current time.
Yes, he has done all that the Wilpons could have hoped for. He bought them time to try and get their house in order for the long-term sake of the business holding. Of course they would give him high marks. For the moment it seems he has saved their skins. However, in terms of the product – that being the New York Mets – he has done them way more harm than good. As others have argued, the team could have been restructured financially without the drastic salary dumps. I don’t know about that, however, one thing that we have learned is that to put an individual who believes he taught himself the professional aspects of the game through saber studies is suicide to winning. One needs a baseball person in charge, not a lawyer. And I think the Wilpons understood that. It’s just that they needed the lawyer at this time with the baseball person coming second.
I’m wondering if there weren’t others out there with the same legal and business background as Sandy who would see the limits of their baseball knowledge and have brought in people with solid track records to work within the financial confines he had to put them into. That takes being a person able to see above his own narrow self-assuredness.
Are we back to listening to what Jeffy has to say again? Really?
As for who has the final say well it isn’t the WIlpons at all….
We all get to vote and so far the vote has been NO GOOD as indicated by the attendance figures!
Wilpon can love Sandy to death but if we don’t go to see them he is as good as gone and if not him the Owners who think he was doing a good job!
Because none of them can survive without the fans going to see the work they have done.
So no the Wilpon’s opinion doesn’t matter at all.
If he loses 23 Mil again this year (and could if Wright and Dickey leave) there will be no one left to cut to make the FAKE progress folks have been relying on to say he did good.
The 2009 & 2010 Mets, i.e. the teams prior to the Alderson era averaged 74 wins, so it’s not as if this was a great situation to inherit even with a handful expensive very good players, a handful of terribly overpaid mediocre to terrible players and a handful of inexpensive solid young players on the roster.
The upper levels were almost devoid of talent ( with more depth & promise in A – Ball). With payroll commitments of over 130 million $, Alderson had roughly 10 million $ to spend that first winter with about 8 to 10 holes on the major League roster and went on to sign Capuano, Young, Byrdak, Isringhausen, Buchholz,Paulino, Hairston and Harris off the scrap heap and adding Beato & Emaus in the Rule V. To the disappointment of most fans, there was no money left to retain Hisanori Takahashi and Pedro Feliciano.
He then traded Beltran for a top prospect instead of losing him for nothing 3 months later and saved 14.5 million for 2012 by giving away KRod for two fringe prospects and re-invested that sum as essentially his entire off- season budget into retaining Byrdak, Hairston and Young, plus adding Cedeno, Francisco & Rauch, the latter duo falling short of expectations. Of course, there were no in-house options available with most promising arms in AA or lower and no more rushing of prospects on the agenda.
He also made the Torres & Ramirez for Pagan stinker, getting two pedestriah players for the price of one pretty good player who was going to be a free agent after 2012 anyway.
He also failed to trade Reyes earlier that summer for 50 cents on the dollar with Reyes fresh off the DL ( and shortly back on again) and when his budget got cut from 110 million to 95 million with losses mounting, he was neither able to make him a competitive offer nor send him a box of chocolates.
In the meantime he picked up Hefner & Baxter for nothing and lost FMart, Stinson and R. Cruz for nothing.
In the minors, no prospect has been traded, three extra compensation picks added in drafts, and the most expensive IFA in franchise history signed.
The Mets after 2012 featured a dozen prospects on the Baseball America League Top 20 lists for the first time in well over a decade.
The major league roster remains a work in progress.
The farm system is improved but not top notch yet.
Overall, the grade remains very much incomplete and the work too.
It’s way too early to call this era a success or a disaster yet.
Some signs are promising. Some are concerning. Time will tell.
If by 2014, 2015 the Mets still are a 75 win team and the farm system isn’t top 10, Alderson & Co will have failed – even if they have done alright in their dual role of chief restructuring officers…
Your average only takes 2009 and 2010 into sccount which are both seasons where our best players were hurt.
he Inherited a team that DESPITE losing it’s biggest bat for half a season won 79 games.
And then when he was doing well again to open the 2011 season made sure we only got half a season from him again.
This sans the Ace of the staff Santana….
And it cost us 2 games on the record.
We then proceeded to lose three more games in win column yet people say he is improving the team when truth is the only thing that has increased is the losses.
What would our record have been last year WITH Beltran and K-Rod?
Would it be the same 74 wins and out of it in July?
Or would we have been so far ahead in 1st place by the time the ASG that we WOULD have been good enough to go get some help?
We were practically tied for 1st when the ASG hit….
And where would be have been at that time with Beltran’s production?
Sure we got Wheeler but we could have gotten him AND still got Beltran back…
But people were more worried about Wilpons finances and rooting for them instead of rooting for the TEAM to be the best it could be if we just played to win.
Well had they kept KRod & Beltran in 2011, the Mets probably win 80 instead of 77 games. Beltran is worth an extra win. KRod is worth an extra win and 1 win is created by a happier clubhouse atmosphere. Of course,
Reyes still hurts his hamstring twice. Murphy still misses a couple of months. Santana still isn’t there. Of course, instead of throwing the towel, merely 6 games back of a playoff berth, the Mets could have made trades to upgrade the roster like they did in a similar situation as in 2004. With Matt Harvey & Jeurys Familia, they did have two very interesting chips and could possibly have taken the team to 82 wins and thus over .500.. Oh…wait…
Last season, with KRod’s option having vested and Beltran re-signed, the Wilpons’ are forced to sell the team as they cannot meet the 115 million $ payroll anymore by late July. Which of course would have been the best case scenario ! Sure, Gee & Santana still get hurt at the All Star Break. But by trading Mejia for Paul Maholm and Wilmer Flores and Domingo Tapia for Ryan Dempster we could have made up for that. In the end, the Mets do play meaningful games in September of 2012, finishing with 84 wins !
So, I agree, that would have been the best case scenario with a new ownership group in place about now…
After K-Rod was traded, the Mets bullpen blew 12 leads after the 8th inning….overall they blew over 20 leads in 2011.
the last time the mets had a decent pen was 2010.
Side Note: Sandy Alderson’s best move might’ve been not resigning Feliciano. Strangely, Yankee fans never hold it against Cashman the way Met fans would against their GM’s. We have adopted the same penny-pinching mentality that we accuse the Wilpons of having.
The Mets blew 12 7th inning or later leads before K-Rod was traded, 12 more after.
The decent pen of 2010 had 12 walkoff losses, 6 by walkoff HR that’s just on the road. 5 of those walkoff losses the last pitch was thrown by Pedro Feliciano. That’s not even counting games they lost at home.
The last time the Mets had a good pen was 2006 pre Sanchez cab ride
Yep and who rebuilt the Pen that year?
Who made it the FOCUS of all he did in the offseason?
WHO is RESPONSIBLE for that PEN?
You don’t really believe that trading KRod cost the Mets 8 to 10 wins in 2011, do you ?
If that were the case, a Mariano Rivera type closer would easily be worth 15 wins over a full season and thus about 40 million or so in annual salary.
between him and Beltran easily 10-15 wins which would have put them into the playoffs.
It only took 90 or 91 wins to make the playoffs that year.
We had 77 without them so with them we could have easily got the 13 wins needed.
And if we had been buyers instead of sellers that year maybe even MORE wins.
And Metsie,
Let’s not forget that we lost both Murphy and Niese to injury and without that happening, perhaps even more than 15 wins – for imagine how Wright would have been pitched to if he had Murphy before him and Beltran behind him. Nobody can say Sandy saw the injuries coming through a psychic experience and thus made the deals in anticipation of a lost season regardless.
And with KRod as the closer, the rest of the pitching staff wouldn’t have pressed trying so much to prevent one extra run coming in which resulted in two or more. Same thing for the hitters – they wouldn’t try driving in all the base runners themselves if they knew they had both batting support behind them and that their pitching staff wasn’t apt to even make a deficit more out of reach.
Trickle-up effect.
Or the other question to ask is….
Would Murphy have been played at 2B at all if Beltran wasn’t traded and Evans brought up to replace him?
Duda was moved to RF after the trade. Until then he was the backup 1B.
They brought up Evans to backup 1B and to leave him in the game they PH Murph for Turner and played him at 2B.
Then he got hurt.
If he had PH for Evans he might not have gotten injured at all.
In a warped sort of way you CAN blame the reyes injury for starting that bizzare change of events.
Funny that with them they were a 500 team give or take a game or two when they had both of them and they would’ve suddenly become a 90 win team had they not traded them? I wonder why they couldn’t get more than 4 games over 500 with them. Beltran also went on the DL while Duda was outperforming Beltran after the trade. They were a game over 500 at the time of the trade that means they would’ve had to play 17 games over 500 the rest of the way. No way that was ever happening. 500 was realistic, 90 wins was a fantasy.
They were only under .500 due to a 5 and 13 start…after that and up till the Beltran trade they were playing some pretty insipred and good baseball….
And they were actually OVER .500 at the time Beltran was traded….
54 Wins 51 Losses….
So so much for the Fact Baron and his knowledge…
Better luck next time….
53-51 on July 28th the day of the trade. They won the next 2 to hit their highwater mark of 4 games over. Either way 2/3rds of the way into the season the were 2 games over 500. They were on pace to win around 82-83 games with both. They weren’t going 38-20 from July 28th the rest of the way to get to 91 wins. They hadn’t reached over 90 wins since 2006.
‘They weren’t going 38-20 from July 28th the rest of the way to get to 91 wins”
and why not?
Bottom line is…Sandy had ALL OF JULY to ADD on to the team, and never did so…no additions to the bullpen…or the rotation…or catcher…or anywhere…
Sandy made sure we wouldnt go 38-20
Fonzie,
It is speculation on all sides about what the Mets would have done, however, the odds are that had been modest moves made to re-inforce their stock and the injuries did not set in (again, nobody could predict those) it is certainly reasonable to believe they would have played more than .500 ball the rest of the year than to have floundered.
The 5-14 start hurt badly, but so did the moves Sandy made before that. Takahashi was a good reliever for the Mets in 2010 and continued doing so in 2011 for another team. Though nobody could anticiapte Feliciano’s career ending (till now) injury, he too had been solid in the pen. So we lose two dependable relievers and we get Carasco, Boyer, Bucholz and Beato in their place. And Sandy put his faith in Brad Emus at second the start of the season instead of, if not Murphy, the rookie Justin Turner or even his shortstop of the future – Tejada.
How much of these new players – plus the loss of the others, contribute to that slow start? If we won just three more games and started off at 8-11 instead of 5-14, we would have been 58-48 by the end of July – ten games over and 3-1/2 games back in the wild card. And the fact that we then went 50-37 despite those players – and despite getting more help instead – certainly gives validity to the claim that they were no more than just – at best – a .500 team.
But since we are talking about the 2011 squad and Sandy Alderson’s maneuvering that made up the roster, you are right – a legitimate argument can certainly be made that (baring injuries) they were not even a .500 team. But that is because of the moves made by the general manager before and during the season – it had nothing to do with the players Sandy inherited. So even though they played at a .575 clip for more than half the season after that miserable start, you and right – the Mets were not even a .500 club. But who is to blame for that?
We finished sixth in runs scored despite Beltran being shipped off. So it wasn’t that we couldn’t score enough. It was that Sandy got bargain basement players to re-do the bullpen leading up to KRod (who had 23 saves and blew just five with 3 blown saves and two losses till the time he was traded) and we now know what Sandy feels about what one gets in return signing those type of players.
Bay and Beltran were the only two regulars over 30 so it’s not that we had an aging club that needed to be broken up, either (though we had to rid ourselves of Bay for obvious reasons, anyway)
Well in regards to your 53-51 attempt to get out of saying they were UNDER .500 I provide you this link.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/standings/index.jsp?ymd=20121003#20110728
You keep saying “ON A PACE” but that PACE includes the 5-13 start thatskews the actually baseball quality they were playing at the time.
In May, June and July they were on a PACE and WinPct of .519, .593 and .519.
To go 38-20 and get 91 wins all they needed to do was retain a .526 Win Pct. which is just two or three wins MORE than what they did in May and July.
So sorry charlie you were wrong on just about EVERY account!
Precisely JDD!
Sandy made sure the team would not make the playoffs because if it had he would be forced to think about resigning and paying Beltran, K-Rod and Reyes which is something he had no intentions of doing.
From the day he got here he knew he was not interested in keeping any of them.
And I don’t think he had planned on keeping Wright either but the blowback from the Reyes disaster forced Wilpon to say NO MAS!
Hi Metsie,
Besides JDD getting credit for pointing out Alderson did everything in his power to insure that the Mets didn’t continue their playoff push the last third of the season, don’t I get some sort of extra credit for pointing out that he was planning this months before the season even began?
In July when the Mets were making their push, I am sure Sandy was uttering the words of the villian in the early movie thrillers after the hero rescues the lady tied to the tracks “curses, foiled again!”
Yes Joey but then all your going to get back from him are quotes of the lies he told when he got here about being exciting and not giving up blah blah blah which we all know to be complete bull but Fonzie will call us all liars and find a slideshow of Sandy quotes to say he is the only one telling th truth….
You know like that truth we were under .500 and then his second attempt to shave off a win to extricate himself from the first lie.
Hi Metsie,
Actually, Fonzie has not responded to my post from a few days back when he again accused me all that and more. I responded by asking him to explain why he is the only one to accuse me of submitting quotes that were not true, facts that were made up and referring to links that were non-existant. Even those who disagree with me have never questioned the validity of the backup I use – just the conclusions I come to based on that information.
Certainly, if what Fonzie claims I do is true, I would think that others would see so too and call me out on it like he does. But nobody else has. Again, nobody has used as an argument that what I have presented as evidence to make my case as BS – they’ve simply disagreed with the way I interpreted things from it.
Like the point about Sandy never being approached by any other ball club to be it’s general manager. I was accused of making up stories about that and as proof, Fonzie attached one newspaper article that said he was approached by other clubs; the article included no quote from sources named or un-named within those organizations, not even quotes from Sandy himself. Just a statement which I suggested was just used by the writer to build up the story even more. In all the interviews I’ve come across with Sandy, he has never once mentioned being approached by any other club other than San Diego, and that was to be it’s CEO – not general manager. Neither had I found information from other clubs that they had interviewed him for the GM position, And I’ve also pointed out information on candidates being interviewed for the same position by other teams is routinely available for public consumption.
Nobody else accused me of trying to manipulate details or ignoring other sources to create a false impression – at most, there was conjecture about talks never being reported. But based on the information available, there is nothing to back that up.
I did mention to Fonzie I admired him for sticking to his guns with his criticism of me but since nobody else has questioned my integrity he was indeed “The Lone Ranger” in terms of this accusation.
Fonzie, still awaiting your answer as to why you are alone on this subject.
As if the Wilpons being forced to sell the team would be a bad thing right?
Well JDD already blew away your 3 game more assertion just with the Bullpen blown games alone….
Only 90 wins would have gotten you into the playoffs as a wild card.
So K-Rod trade alone could have cost us a playoff spot…
get into the Playoffs and the 17Mil is nothing as ticket sales jump up the year he would get it!
And I could go on forever on the subject of if we had to pay him 17 Mil at all….
because we could have bought out the option in the same way that Mil did because WE had what he wanted…to STAY a closer.
There are many ways to re-build a club – trades, free agent signings and prospects.
It’s not the Mets didn’t have players they could build around when Sandy took over after the 2010 season. If he had kept the team together (let us not assume Beltran would have walked – he said he wanted to stay even as the trade deadline was looming and did re-negotiate the contract with KRod to get the vesting option paid as part of a multi-year contract down the road instead of immediately) he would have had a team like this to work around going into 2012:
Wright – 3B
Reyes – SS
Murphy – 2B
Davis – 1B
Duda/Hairston – LF (platoon with one in left)
Pagan – CF
Beltran – RF
Thole – C
Dickey
Santana
Niese
Gee
Havey – Starting Rotation
KRod (closer)
Francisco
Parnel – Bulllpen
Turner
Tejada
Cedeno
Duda/Hairston (platoon) – Bench
That is not a bad team to build around on, not one bit. And if he then had the proper baseball people in charge, they would have advised him how to properly build up the pen – and that would include having signed Francisco but on the premise he would be used for middle relief.
And owners, Joey, that couldn’t afford the team they were fielding.
Hi TRS,
Of course, that’s the whole point.
These moves weren’t made from the perspective of putting together a good, competitive team for a few years but rather a short-sighted sense of what was financially in the best interests for the Wilpons to retain ownership.
Know they needed to cut costs (as they still do) but I wonder if they could have cut that $30 million in other areas or that the cash flow was so bad that they simply needed to have the money immediately to pay their bills and could not count on possible revenue coming in from increased attendance or otherwise that could mean being forced to sell the club (Metsie, I know you have reservations about the tightness of the cash flow but the fact is they did need two loans just to pay their monthly operating expenses).
But the bottom line is that the team is now operating like the Pittsburgh Mets – either by circumsnates beyond the owner’s control, or by design – or probably more a combination of both.