19
2012
What Can The Mets Learn From Detroit’s Success?
An article by 
The Detroit Tigers have put the Yankees in off-season mode, and it took only 4 games to do it. You know in the long run, the Yankees may have had less drama to deal with had the Orioles taken them out in 5 games.
I have no doubt that this will be the start of a lot of changes in the Bronx. They already are speaking of the need to lower payroll, but with the week ARod had – they may be lowering payroll at face value, but paying for him to play somewhere else.
But, let’s let them figure it out. I believe you can look at the four LCS teams and see a lot of what the Mets need to start following. Let’s talk about the AL Champions.
They built their roster through a combination of draft, trades, and signings. They were never afraid to make a big signing, but also never shy from making a trade that may get questioned at first glance.
Impact Trades
When they acquired Miguel Cabrera in 2007, they snuck in while the Angels were trying to get Cabrera and made the Marlins an offer that forced the Marlins to not even call the Angels back. They gave up some of their top prospects at the time. Of those prospects, the most accomplished are probably Cameron Maybin & reliever Burke Badenhop. Exactly.
In 2009, the Tigers sent Edwin Jackson to Arizona, and Curtis Granderson to the Yankees. In that same deal, the Yankees sent Ian Kennedy to Arizona.
The Tigers in that deal acquired Phil Coke & Austin Jackson from the Yankees, and Max Scherzer & Daniel Schlereth from the Diamondbacks.
Exactly.
Besides those two brilliant trades, the following players were also brought in through trades in recent years: Omar Infante, Delmon Young, Anibal Sanchez, and Doug Fister.
Development
The Tigers are not one of the teams you look at and say “they did that through the draft,” but – they did draft their catcher Alex Avila in 2008, and of course developed the best pitcher in the game today (Verlander) who was picked in 2004.
How often have we said it here, a developed catcher and a developed ace can make a huge difference for a franchise.
Free Agency
The Tigers are always active in free agency, but not always to the extent of being the big overpayer. We all know they signed Prince Fielder this past winter, and if they win a World Series this year – I’m sure their fans won’t care about the length of the deal, nor should they.
They also signed Jhonny Peralta, Joaquin Benoit, Octavio Dotel. Obviously the big catch was Prince Fielder, who set their team apart from the rest and installed Detroit as an official “big market” team.
Face of the Franchise: Jim Leyland
The Tigers were managed by Sparky Anderson for 16 years until the 1995 season concluded. After Anderson’s retirement, the Tigers went through 4 (and a half) Managers over 10 seasons.
Buddy Bell 1996-1998
Larry Parrish 1998-1999
Phil Garner 2000-2002
Luis Pujols 2002 (Garner gone after 6 games)
Alan Trammell 2003-2005
None of those managers finished a season over .500.
When the Tigers hired Leyland, they did so knowing of his past struggles with Colorado – but also knowing that this man was one of the most respected and accomplished Managers of his era. They didn’t talk themselves out of why they needed a great Manager – when he said he was interested in managing again, they hired him 1 day later.
“When I talk about people like Tony La Russa and Bobby Cox, that’s the type of category Jim Leyland is in,” GM Dave Dombrowski said.
I am of the belief that the Manager is a very important role. It’s a leadership role like no other.
I have faith in Terry Collins for this team right now, but I don’t believe he is the type of Manager that can take the Mets to the next level. I don’t believe he’s the guy to lead this team toward an attitude of winning.
To me, you either go drastically young like the White Sox & Cardinals have done or you go after the guys who have proven they are winners.
If Managers like Mike Scioscia, Joe Maddon, or Buck Showalter for whatever reason are not employed after the 2013 season – I hope the Mets don’t need them, but if they do – I don’t want any excuses why they don’t look to hire one of them.
I hope people like Ryne Sandberg, Joe McEwing, Brett Butler, Chip Hale, as well as Wally Backman & Tim Teufel are given a chance to prove why they belong managing a big league club.
I think Willie Randolph got a bad deal in Flushing, and will one day get another chance somewhere. His lack of MLB managerial experience at the time should not stop the Mets from looking at similar options down the road.
There is also the slight possibility of two retired giants in the managerial world: Tony LaRussa & Joe Torre. I don’t expect either to be a possibility, but I doubt the Tigers expected Leyland to say he wanted to manage in the bigs again, look how that turned out.
In order to be a respected franchise, the Manager needs to be one of the most respected people in the room. With respect to people like Jerry Manuel, Art Howe, Jeff Torborg, and even Terry Collins – I don’t feel that is true.
Tigers Blueprint
I have the utmost respect for Dave Dombrowski as a General Manager (and Team President). His Detroit Tigers are headed to the World Series with the best pitcher in the game, the best hitter in the game, and one of the greatest living Managers of all-time as well. None of it is an accident.
Each team in the LCS has a different story to tell, and something all struggling MLB teams can learn from. I just hope the Mets are paying attention.
About the Author: Michael J. Branda
My time with MMO began in July of 2009 when I wrote a Fan Post defending Omar Minaya (before it was cool to do that.) I grew up a Mets fan with the mid 1980's teams. My favorite Met of all-time is (and was) Wally Backman. When it comes to sabermetrics versus old school thinking, I like to think I meet in the middle. I believe thinking of new ways to get answers is helpful, especially when the same way has not produced results. However, I think over-thinking certain situations can get you into trouble. I'm excited for the new regime, because I believe they have pieces in place to focus on several aspects of the Mets organization. I've waited this long for a World Series, waiting a few more years for another chance isn't going to kill me.
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What can we learn from the Detroit-Yankee series?
Pitching, pitching, pitching stack the crowd with hot blonde strippers and pray your opponent breaks an ankle.
Dave Javu
From Wikipedia:
For the 2002 season, his first with the Tigers after being hired by owner Mike Ilitch, Dombrowski was to serve as president and chief executive officer of the rebuilding Tigers. Incumbent general manager Randy Smith would continue in his role, reporting to Dombrowski. However, when Detroit lost its first six games in 2002, Dombrowski quickly fired both Smith and manager Phil Garner.[5] Dombrowski assumed the general manager’s role himself, becoming the first person to serve as both president and GM for the Tigers since Jim Campbell held both titles from 1978–1983.[6]
In 2003, the Tigers lost an American League-record 119 games, one fewer loss than the MLB record set by the 1962 New York Mets.[citation needed] Three years later, the 2006 Tigers, led by manager Jim Leyland, won their first AL pennant since their championship season of 1984. Along the way, they won the AL wild card, defeated the favored[citation needed] New York Yankees in four games in the division series, then swept the Oakland Athletics in the American League Championship Series. In the 2006 World Series, they were defeated in five games by the St. Louis Cardinals.
Yes, pitching. The Mets learned long ago, that even a weak team can win with good pitching. But what can we learn from the Tigers? Don’t forget, they were one of the worst teams of all time just a few years ago. Mets fans were rooting for them to lose 121 games and get the 1962 monkey off our backs. Now, they’re going to the World Series. They’ve made smart moves. And signed a couple of the best hitters in baseball. What have the Mets done? Gotten Andres Torres–a .244 lifetime hitter–to play centerfield (and he hit less than that), let Jose Reyes go without a fight, got stuck with damaged goods in Santana and Bay, have no hitting or defense out of their catchers, weak bullpen year after year, expect Mike Pelfrey and Dillon Gee to be solid starters, and maybe worst of all–settle for less. We always settle for less.
Having a 133 million dollar payroll helps too.
didn’t help the Mets last year! since as always, it is who you spend it on that really counts.
it is who you spend it on that really counts.
THIS^^^ LOL.
Good point. Having the ability to mispend your money, I should say, would be nice.
Apples and oranges. Once the Mets payroll dropped to 100 million, they affectively waved the white flag. If they were to reinvest just half of the fifty million they shaved off payroll after 2011, this team might have won 90 games.
Comparing the two teams is moot. Every team has their own formula, good or bad. The Mets decided to do a half ass rebuild by shaving payroll and adding roster fill ins as their team. That’s not a winning strategy, that’s a get me through this season approach.
The plan from the beginning has been the same…wait out the bad contracts because there’s just no more money to spend to fix the roster. They figured by 2014 the bad contracts would be gone and their minor league system would be contributing more by then, at a time when the cash would finally be available to spend.
The Mets can take jack from these four teams…it’s a waiting game. Unless, your hoping they trade all their prospects for better players, but even then, they still couldn’t afford them.
The reigning Cy Young/MVP and 2 guys combining for over 70 HR helped a little.
LOL, just a little.
Side note, I kinda cringed when Jim L. told the fans to make sure not to drink and drive last night. LOL, was he telling the fans or his team?
I heard that too. He added ‘even me’.
Didn’t Miggy have a problem last season with a DUI – or drinking and getting into a fight? I might be confusing him with someone else…
He got pulled over for a DUI in Spring training and it wasn’t his first offense. It didn’t help that a handful of other players around the league were all getting busted for DUIs and people wanted Selig to do a Roger Goodell impression.
Thought I remembered reading something about him and a DUI……
Ya, he’s had some very public problems that stemmed from drinking.
Oh, playing the weakest division too.
LOL, well lets just take all the credit away from their mysterious run.
That being said they made some very risky trades and under the radar trades that really took them over the top. That and they were smart with FA not spending to take them to the top but instead waiting until they were already there and using FA to put them over the top.
I still think Fielder’s contract will come back to haunt them if they don’t win now. Cabrera was what, 27 when he signed his deal? Verlander was 26. That is the ideal time to sign guys.
if they win a couple of WS and make a boatload of money, they can live with him as a fading DH for the last few years. And having the DH makes it much easier to roll the dice on that type of deal.
as long as the $ don’t prevent them down the line from adding other guys they need.
Ya, flags fly forever.
However, will the luster on the ring(s) shine until 2020 if they do get handcuffed those last few seasons?
But they would have more than made enough money off of winning the WS and the swell of that to cover the cost of Prince in his latter years.
Detroit is not exactly what I would call a burgeoning metropolis. Their owner is going to have to sell a lot of pizza to supplement that income.
It really depends…
i have heard that a WS appearence/win has a downstream affect on revenue for the next 2-3 seasons.
this is why the phils were able to go crazy on Howard..
Playoffs in 2007-2008 ( WS )-2009 ( WS ) – 2010 – 2011 – added revenue to more than cover Ryan Howard’s crazy contract…and Lee/Doc and whoever else…
why?
attendance is at 104% capacity…
that happened when they started winning.
The Cubs also have a loyal following…who show up no matter how bad the team is doing..
They have finished in 5th place 5 of the out past 8 years…
They were 61-101 …and ranked 5th in total attendance…
that is an owners wet dream…
but that is NOT NY…
Its apples and oranges. The Tigers spend 40% more than the Mets. What can we learn from them? NOTHING. The Oakland A’s on the other hand….
nothing from the As either, since the Mets spend 60% more than them.
The Tigers are right around where the Mets were for the last few years before 2012. Just with more success.
Obviously the Braves would be a good model but I guess around here you can’t say that. They only spent 83M last year and still had established stars like Chipper, Hudson and McCann tying up much of their payroll.
the Braves and the Cards are perfect examples of what smart teams the can keep pumping talent up the system can do if they have enough payroll available to keep the best and sign a FA when needed. basically the Rays with the ability to keep people more than 4 years!
The Braves also save a ton by having a super cheap (and effective, how about that Kimbrel!) pen.
Hey don’t mention Kimbrel, that’ll stir the natives.
Honestly I think the Braves are the best example of a well run year in and year out organization. How many times have they actually been terrible in the last 20 years?
2 seasons under .500 since 1991, 8 times with a .600+ winning percentage, 15 seasons 90 wins or above and 16 play off appearances.
There’s a reason I hated the Braves growing up, other than the fact that I was in Braves territory.
Regarding the Braves and their limited payroll every year….at this point it has to be more than good luck.
They obviously have good scouts and a good minor league development system.
That was the question I asked and I am just not informed enough to write a post on. Are the Braves really good at scouting and drafting or really good at development? Maybe a little bit of both but sometimes I wonder how their later picks seem to always turn into great pitchers.
To further my point:
Hanson- 22nd round
Delgado- Amateur FA
Beachy- Amateur FA
Kimbrel- 3rd round
Venters- 30th round
Medlen- 10th round
Teheran- Amateur FA
Personally i like the Twins and also the Rangers..
they have a CONSISTENT philosophy..and most of all ACCOUNTABILITY…
If a SP gets injured b/c he threw too many pitches…Nolan Ryan has egg on his face for abandoning the pitch count…
As an owner, he has BALLS to come out in PUBLIC and own up to changing the system…
this is what the wilpons NEVER DO
they chime in in private…suggest changes…when they dont work….they back away and act like they had nothing to do with…
NO ACCOUNTABILITY
this is why we are where we are…
Eh, I don’t like how the Twins tend to ignore IFAs.
“If a SP gets injured b/c he threw too many pitches…Nolan Ryan has egg on his face for abandoning the pitch count…”
Ya, that doesn’t really happen. Ryan is not making decisions like that. They hire actual coaches for a reason.
I was referring to the way they develop players…and the fact that they have their own model on how to do stuff that is consistent from the manager on down to the minors
and i believe they signed a big time IFA not too long ago
You did not just imply the Wilpons getting more involved would be a good thing….did you?
Uh…no thanks.
Nolan Ryan vs Fred Wilpon
Both former pitchers…
Which owner do u trust to know more about baseball?
An owner can have his input…thats fine….
but take ownership for it ….or dont do it all …
the mets always use the GM position as a public pinata
FunFact:
I hear Jeff Wilpon to this day STILL tells people he was a former MLB player…
If you go to Sterling Enterprises website,
http://www.sterlingequities.com/about/leadership.php
he actually has it listed
“In 1983 he was drafted as a catcher by the Montreal Expos.”
FYI – he is the ONLY EXEC who does not list their college education….( i believe he dropped out of Michigan after he was drafted in the LAST ROUND….and quit after 1 week of spring training)
Yes ladies and gentleman…
This guy has had more influence over our club than any GM, manager, player in the past 15 years
He neither has baseball knowledge…nor a degree he can list….
but somehow he is the expert…
until he leaves…there is no such thing as an adult in the room…
I’m not following your logic at all.
Only Ryan had a career in the MLs, but what’s your point?
All good teams have very good pitching and are strong up the middle.
those trades point out the key thing about having to invest in player development. The reason for a strong farm is not just so you can have an all home-grown team, it is to have enough of the currency that MLB works with (young talent!) to trade to get what you need, and overpay when you have a shot at a stud.
in simplistic terms, if you have 1 guy like Wheeler in your farm, you really can’t trade him. But if you have 5 guys that are all at that level, then you can afford to move a couple to get a star back. Also why it is not a bad thing to have a glut of top prospects at a premium position (or even a top guy blocked at the ML level). You can always find someone that needs them.
Yup, the minor league system is like stocks in a portfolio.
[...] What can the Mets learn from the Tigers? Jessep, MetsMerized Online [...]
The Catcher position is the most important position on the diamond.
In 2003, The marlins won a WS with Pudge as their catcher…
In 2003, THe Tigers had the worst record in baseball
In 2004, The Marlins punted on Pudge..Pudge announces he wants to come to NY
The Mets were more interested in Mike Piazza breaking the HR record for catchers in a met uniform…and passed up on him.
He goes to Detroit…the worst team in baseball…and helps turn around a staff IMMEDIATELY
He hits .334 with 19 HR that year…wins a GG…finishes in the top 10 for MVP
With the same exact staff from 2003-2004
The staff in 2003 allowed 928 runs…before Pudge
The staff in 2004 allowed 844 runs with Pudge
The staff in 2005 allowed 787 runs with Pudge
The staff in 2006 allowed 675 runs with Pudge …they go to the WS
The staff in 2007 allowed 797 runs with Pudge …
They let Pudge walk as a free-agent
The staff in 2008 allowed 857 runs …first sub-500 record in 5 years
I always said…the CATCHER is the MOST IMPORTANT POSITION on the diamond…
FYI – rather than pick up the BEST CATCHER IN BASEBALL..when he actually WANTED TO COME TO NY….we stick with Piazza who in 2004, hits .266 with 20 HR that year…and was still Johnny Damon behind the plate…
we could’ve moved Piazza to 1B….but he wanted the HR record for catchers…and lets face it…he and the wilpons were more obsessed with stats more than he was with winning.
I agree Laird is a beast.
Laird ?
The guy has been a bench player since 2009…that year he stunk up the joint in Detroit…
He played 63 games this year…had 2 HR…
maybe u meant to say Pudge
Nope I said what I meant to say in relation to your assessment.
1 – Catchers are important to the pitching staff and defense
2 – Pudge was credited with helping turn around that staff
3 – Pudge was credited with the 2003 Florida pitching staff as well
There are before/after comparisons with both Florida ( 2002 ) and Detroit ( 2003 ) that back up my claim.
Not sure what the point you were trying to make
By the way, for everyone who says Juan Centeno shouldnt be an option because he doesnt hit for power…
Alex Avila hit .243 with 9 HR this year…
the ability to call a game, play good defense, this will affect 8 other people on the diamond…
having a bopper behind the plate that sucks at calling a game, playing defense and throwing out runners will lead to more losses than wins.
Do you realize how much better those stats are than Juan Centeno? Seriously, give the kid time and if he develops like you think he will then he will be here in a few years when he can even carry the bat to the plate.
Centeno hit .371 in 2010 in -A ….318 in 2011 in A ball …285 in 2012 in AA…
His coach called him the most improved player on the roster…
He threw out over 41% of base-stealers…
When Josh Thole had that great year in 2010, got married over the winter…and said he wasnt going to participate in winter ball…i had a feeling he would regress…
and regress he did…2 years in a row…
I said it on Metsblog, the mets success will depend on how Thole develops…
u cant have success if the QB of your pitching staff and defense is suspect
All valid points. Building a team through free agency is a losing proposition. Even the almighty Yankees have only one world championship since 2000. It all starts with the farm. The only way to acquire decent talent is to have something to trade. A plateful of top prospects allows a GM to work deals for not only established stars, but fill other needs with quality talent.
Sadly for the Mets, this path is down the road. There is very little talent in the minors. Right now, Wheeler and Flores are the closest to being anything. Everyone else fits into the AAAA category or will be a total surprise. While surprises do happen, it is foolish to bank on them.
Anyone who thinks the Mets can fill their holes by just spending money do not understand where the team is at. They have a lot of holes (C, perhaps 1 SP, entire OF, and 90% of their bullpen). While some of the youngsters might fill the roles, most dont look too promising. Thus the Mets will have to make some trades which only opens up more holes. Hopefully, some of the 2nd tier prospects can be bunched together for a decent major league talent. It is a longshot but it is the only hope.
I agree with much of what you said and keep going back to what was said on MLBN and gave me the same philosophy. FA is to put you over the top, not to take you too the top. If you rely on it to take you to the top you will fail most of the time.
That being said I do disagree with this comment slightly
” There is very little talent in the minors.”
I believe the minors have a lot more talent than just those two but those are the only impact players even close to being ready.
Great talent
Great player development
this will help bridge the gap
Omar was GREAT at finding talent…not so much in development
Sandy is the opposite…
If Sandy was really a GM, he has the skills to put in a system of great development
Depo is horrible
JP i hear is actually better…but im not sure what he does for the org still…
Either way, since Jeff Wilpon needs to stick his nose in everything..and Sandy is just biding his time til his babysitting duties are over…we will never see a Twins/Braves/Rangers style of consistent teaching from top to bottom on any one aspect of the game
We will never see a winner til the wilpons sell
What can we learn from Detroit?
It’s about having a positive spirit that comes from the top and is reflective throughout the organization. It is having a general manager who understands the game but also has an emotional bond with players is better than having one who is analytical, treats people with indifference and makes a team feel it was kicked in the teeth.
Jeez, enough about Jaun Centeno already! He stinks. He can’t hold a candle to Kevin Pawlecki.
He will be a backup at most in AAA when he’s fully developed. I’ve read you talking him up twice already and dude, it ain’t happening.
so let me get this straight…
Age 20 – Catcher A – hits .371 in Brooklyn…has a 35% CS rate
Age 21 – Catcher B – hits .250 in Brooklyn…has a 32% CS rate
and in your eyes…Prospect A cant hold a candle to Prospect B
lol ok
whatever works for you
What can we learn?
Having 77 Mil tied up in 4 players is not quite as debilitating as Sandy and his cheerleaders would have us believe!
It is when ur payroll is 95 mil !
the answer…INCREASE THE PAYROLL !!!
THIS!
It is when your payroll is under $100 million and 2 of those players are Jason Bay and Johan Santana
I believe the Mets are entering the winter of trades that will make us shake our heads but prove to be positive down the road. We’ll see.
Having been on the losing end of Jim Leyland’s teams all those years ago when he managed the Pirates I hated that he beat us back then but I can also say I respect what he has done as a manager in his career so coming into the post season one of the things I wanted to see if for nothing else nostalgic reasons was seeing Jim Leyland go up against Davey Johnson in the W.S.
Leyland held up his end but Davey was unable to. The Tigers are in the W.S. but I can’t help not forget that they spent most of the 2nd half in a battle with the White Sox for the division where up until the Sox basically imploded the last 2 weeks of the season the Tigers were in 2nd place for the most part. There was even a reported rumor that Leyland’s job was in jeopardy late in the season if they failed making the post season with Cabrera at one point taking a fans fire Leyland sign away.
The point is if not for the White Sox meltdown the last 2 weeks this post may have been about “What can the Mets learn from the White Sox success?” So while one can take away something from the Tigers success I can’t help but wonder how would the Tigers be viewed had the White Sox had not failed the last 2 weeks?
One thing I and others have been saying is that the yankees are built for the regular season…but not the post-season
2005 vs Angels- .253 w. 4 HR
http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2005_ALDS2.shtml
2006 vs Detroit- .246 w/ 4HR
http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2006_ALDS1.shtml
2007 vs Cleveland- .228 w/ 7 HR
http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2007_ALDS2.shtml
2008 – NO playoffs
2009 – WS
2010 vs Twins – .314 w/ 4 HR
http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2010_ALDS2.shtml
2010 vs Texas – .201 w/ 6 HR
http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2010_ALCS.shtml
2011 vs. Detroit – .268 w/ 4 HR
http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2011_ALDS1.shtml
2012 vs Baltimore – .211 w/ 4 HR
http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2012_ALDS1.shtml
2012 vs Detroit – .157 w/ 3 HR
http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2012_ALCS.shtml
Their ballpark dimensions lend themselves to division titles and interesting games in October…however..as a ball-parks dimensions mask a pitchers deficiencies…they can also mask a lineup’s dificiencies
when the yankees face great pitching…their all / nothing approach fails….ironically…they have implemented successfully what Fred Wilpon wants to do…
get you interested enough to buy tickets all year…then just hope and pray they win a ring…
whether they do or dont…the fact that they have to split the profit kinda makes the post-season not as profitable as we think it should be
Well at least until they feel the wrath of their fair-weather fans who dont show up now…
this is going to be interesting
Even if the Tigers did not catch up to a stumbling White Sox team down the stretch, the important thing is that the team off Lake Michigan made attempts to improve itself over the years unlike it’s counterpart off Flushing Bay that did not. And that big market teams which did not make it to post-season like Los Angeles, Anaheim and the White Sox did so as well.
With those teams, there is the frustration and disappointment over questionable moves that went wrong. With us there is instead the anger and resentment over no moves at all other than being the sellers of good talent and the buyers of “inexpensive” ones.
One must also remember in 2010 while playing in a weak division, the Detroit Tigers were only able to muster an 81-81 record while the Mets playing in the tougher National League East and beset by injuries finished just two games worse at 79-83. The Tigers won just 88 games this year and are going to the world series. The Cardinals also won just 88 games this year and at this point seem headed in the same direction. Did that 2010 team have so little talent that with some additions they could not have produced nine more victories this year as well, if not more?
That is what could be learned from Detroit’s success this year and I am sure the Wilpons are well aware of it but cannot invest in keeping the team competitive. If they weren’t victims of the Madoff scheme there would be no need for a Sandy Alderson in the front office and then we might be back to feeling frustrated and disappointed rather than angry and resentful.
Alway Glad to see the yankees exit early from Playoffs.
I see the Yankees trading A-Rod to Miami who will they get in return. one question to start asking here will jetter return from his ankle injury. If not will the yankees bring retes back to NY or will they get Heath Bell in return?