5
2012
My Thoughts On MetsBlog’s Take On Alderson’s Interview
An article by Hojo's Mojo
Thoughts from Joe D.
I wanted to weigh in on this interview and decided to include my thoughts but leave HoJo’s original post below for thise who did not get a chance to hear the original interview and wanted a summary. You can still listen to the full interview here.
I was inspired to write this after reading Matt Cerrone’s take on this at MetsBlog this morning. I agree with some of what he conveyed, but also found some big differences of opinion as well. Anyway, here goes…
Matt says: I find it difficult to take everything Sandy Alderson says at face value. Frankly, this is a compliment, because I think any CEO should be very careful with how he answers questions. That may not be a whole lot of fun for sports debate and speculation, but it’s smart business.
I disagree. I believe that if you agree to do an interview that you should be forthright and honest at all times. I don’t believe it’s ever smart business to lie, deceive or give your fans false expectations about the team, your players, and your plan for the team’s future. There is a huge disconnect between Sandy Alderson and this fanbase, and there is a well documented rift in the clubhouse between the players and him. Alienating your base and your players is never a smart strategy. Honesty is still is the best policy, and just because lying and deception is now considered acceptable behavior, it’s neither smart or good no matter the circumstances.
Matt says: RA Dickey will either be signed to an extension or traded.
I thought that was the case since the All Star Break and I still feel that same way now. The only thing that’s changed after carefully listening to comment made by Dickey and Alderson in recent days, is that there’s a greater chance he will be traded than there ever was before. Forget what he said to Francesa which was basically nothing on this matter, it was his comments to Kevin Burkhardt on Wednesday that make it unlikely R.A. Dickey will be back next season. You can read some of those comments here.
Matt says: The team will make David Wright an offer worth more than $100 million, but he will be here on Opening Day whether he signs it or not.
I agree. There will be a six-figure offer, it will be far less than market value which should be in the $150 million dollar range, and regardless of whether Wright agrees or not, he will be your Opening Day third baseman. Wright will play out his walk year just like Jose Reyes as I said would be the case over a year ago. They like Wright and understand the consequences of trading him now would send the team and the fan base into a tailspin.
Matt says: Alderson would like to add 30 to 40 home runs to the lineup over the next two seasons, probably in the outfield; and he’s more likely to trade Dickey, Lucas Duda and Jon Niese than Ike Davis, Matt Harvey or Zack Wheeler to make that happen… though I’m not sure any of these people will be moved.
Absolutely disagree. As I’ve said countless times, Ike Davis and Jon Niese are this team’s two biggest trade chips,and they are the ones in danger of being traded especially Ike Davis. Nobody could care less about the .235 hitting Lucas Duda and every team has their own Lucas Duda or two, somewhere in their organization. There will be little to no interest in him and his value would only be as a throw-in similar to what Andres Torres was last year in the Pagan deal. Harvey and Wheeler are going nowhere and that has always been the case.
Matt says: The last two seasons were about removing (and not adding) long-term commitments, while also evaluating prospects.
Umm, okay. I guess you could say that. But after two years of evaluation comments like “Lucas Duda is a valuable piece to our puzzle”, a “keeper”, and “one of our core players”, makes me question their evaluation skills. Their player evaluation skills on Frank Francisco, Jon Rauch, Ramon Ramirez, D.J. Carrasco, and other relievers they brought in over the last two years also raises questions about their player evaluation skills.
Matt says: He has just $5 to $10 million to spend this winter, so I expect maybe one substantive trade surrounded by smaller acquisitions. However, because of Jason Bay and Johan Santana, he’ll have close to $50 million to spend one year from now, since the team’s budget should still be around $100 million.
Agreed, except there’s no shot in hell that $50 million gets reinvested. Half for Fred and Saul, half for Sandy assuming he’s still around to spend it. MLB might need a new commissioner by then and who was the first one to assert that? That’s right…
Matt says: Also, if I had to bet, Scott Hairston will not be on the Mets if he gets a two-year offer from another team, and Bay is more likely to be released during next season than before it (assuming he can’t be traded first).
Also agreed. Hairston wrote his ticket out of Flushing the day he hit his tenth home run of the season. He’s priced himself completely out of the Mets picture and will get a 2-3 year deal somewhere else this season. You all know my thoughts on Bay. I made a bet back in late August that he would be on the Opening Day roster no matter what you read, hear, or believe. I still stand by that.
So there’s my take, on Matt’s take on what Alderson had to say yesterday on WFAN. I love comparing our thoughts on things and hope you enjoy the different perspectives we each bring to the table which I believe lends a nice depth of insight for both our readers. — Joe D.
Original Post October 4
Sandy Alderson was guest of Mike Francesa today on WFAN. The Mets GM confirmed that he has spoken with David Wright’s agents in the last 24 hours and said:
“There are no guarantees of a resolution to a contract extension, but we are going to move on this very quickly.”
Here is a summary of what else was discussed:
- Jason Bay – He repeated again that he does not intend to release him this winter and said Bay will report with everyone else to Spring Training in February.
- Free Agency – There will no significant additions to the team via free agency. Alderson said, “I don’t expect to make any major acquisitions via the free agent market”.
- Catching – Alderson said he expects to make significant changes at the catcher position. That doesn’t bode well for Josh Thole who is eligible for arbitration this Winter. Also while Kelly Shoppach was almost considered a done deal as far as coming back, that may not be the case now. Alderson said the catching position is not currently “championship caliber” and promised substantial changes there.
- Outfield – Alderson pretty much expressed as mush disappointment about the Mets outfield situation as he did with the catching situation. “There will be more substantial changes [at catcher and in the outfield] than subtle changes,” Alderson said.
- 2013 Payroll - The $50 million owed to both Bay and Santana next season don’t offer him much flexibility for the 2013 payroll, although he maintains the payroll is expected to be around $100 million next year.
- Trade Chips – Alderson said it was unlikely he would consider dealing any of his Major League pitchers and Minor League pitchers who are close to joining the majors. But he would consider trading other Minor Leaguers “under the right circumstances.” By that he means low minors pitchers like Hansel Robles, Rainy Lara and Luis Mateo who he specifically mentioned by name as potential trade chips before,
- Disconnect With Fans – “I’m not intentionally trying their patience,” Alderson said. “I would look at 2013 as another opportunity for us to exceed what expectations people have had. I think we accomplished that in the first half, and we accomplished that when there wasn’t any overhang in 2012, as opposed to 2011.”
- Hitting Approach - “The only effort I questioned in the second half was our hitting approach,” Alderson said. “I think we lost our focus, our approach to things for a while. But that’s a part of the game. I don’t think they mailed it in at any point of the season.”
- Scott Hairston – Alderson said Scott Hairston had an outstanding year, and warrants a contract for more than one year. But did not say whether such a contract offer would come from the Mets. Probably not.
- Ike Davis & Lucas Duda – He will be careful about trading Ike Davis due to the fact it will be very difficult to replace his power potential on the market. Lucas Duda’s best position is first base, but he will be a left fielder on this team the way it’s constructed. “The Mets need to hit more doubles and home runs”.
That’s all the important stuff. Thanks to Mets Blog for transcribing some of this.
About the Author: Rob Johnson
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 24 | 18 | .571 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 20 | .535 | 1.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 23 | .465 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 16 | 24 | .400 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 32 | .256 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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There are people (like myself) who are willing to be patient and see this thing through so long as it’s being done right. Most of those same people recognize there is a big difference between Winter ’10/Winter ’11 to Today. With that said:
Here’s what he’s doing that is going to make or break his tenure here
“Alderson said he expects to make significant changes at the catcher position”
“There will be more substantial changes [at catcher and in the outfield] than subtle changes”
He is raising the bar on himself.
You cannot say you expect significant changes or substantial changes and bring back combinations of Thole, Kirk, Duda, Torres, Spin for example and say “this is our team.”
You can’t say Kirk is the CF and claim that to be a significant change.
So now he’s gonna make or break with some people, me included. If I see Josh Thole or Kelly Shoppach as the starting Catcher and an outfield consisting of Duda/Kirk and Spin/Bay then I’m gonna have a problem with that.
He’s setting this offseason up to be a great discussion with a lot of moving parts to talk about OR an absolute bust.
Well said jessup…..I’m patient too but now he’s gotta follow through on his words!
Ditto
Agreed. This to me is the make/break point. I honestly can’t see how they do this without increasing the payroll some. Nor do I see him doing it without trading minor league pitching at the higher level, specifically Mejia, Familia, McHugh on down to Tapia, Mateo, etc. There is nothing other than Flores that is close to ready for position players. Trading a strength for a weakness will have to happen. I’m intreagued how this will play out. Time to make your money Sandy.
well, this line was the key: “Minor League pitchers who are close to joining the majors.”
so, does he consider Familia or Mejia to be this (and yes, I know they finished the year with the Mets, but neither one appeared ready to stay and have a significant role). Wheeler, it covers him for sure.
I agree about having to trade pitching, since it is pretty much all they have to trade.
We all know Bay is bringing nothing back, but I wonder if the team ate all of Santana’s salary, plus some minor leaguers (like Familia and another) to get D’anaud. Or even Santana and most of his salary for JP. The Blue Jays are in dire need of pitching and seem to have some positional prospects that could work.
one impression though of Sandy is that, unlike some other guys, I honestly don’t think he cares about his tenure/lagacy/what people in the bagel shop think of him. He is going to do what he thinks is best for the LT future of the team, even if it means he ends up doing something different. And that is a good thing (changing his mind), assuming it is a rational reaction to circumstances. Much better than panicking and getting the wrong guy or a bad contract, because ” I have to get X and there is no one else left”. Hopefully if the only guy left is a bad fit, he does go a different direction.
anything he says now is going to be more of a guideline, not a rule…
Largely agree with this as well. Just another reason Selig…er, the Wilpons, thought he was the best man for the job in the short term.
I don’t know how he’s going to significantly upgrade at catcher though. I doubt the Braves will choose not to pick up McCann’s option (if not buy it out in favor of a long term deal altogether). And the Rangers will probably hang on to Napoli, so the FA market is slim.
It will be hard to get a catcher via trade unless we give up someone good.
You do know how he’s upgrading at Catcher. HE AIN’T UPGRADING CATCHER. Ianetta gets 15 mil for 3 years. Alderson was asleep when Suzuki went thru waivers. Thole is probably too expensive for Mr 1980′s.
” Alderson was asleep when Suzuki went thru waivers. ”
With that red hot RED HOT .218/.250./.286 slash line. How do you not go after a guy with a 49 OPS+ making $5 million and locked in for another 2 years?
Ya, totally asleep.
Sandy is not that into you
You = the mets
Well if this one year can make or break his tenure what really are you letting on about the first two years?
And truth is Sandy still saying 3 years away from normal spending.
I don’t think he should start scheduling any Met meetings after November…
Cause if he can lose YOU by then he will have lost EVERYONE!
Rumors are floating about Ike and Niese to lure in those significant upgrades. Those two should be the new core with Harvey. I am sure Wheeler is untouchable and that is a correct approach. DW should be the trade chip again if you want me to state why I will be glad to later. The problem with trading Niese and Ike is that I would want Posey and Braun and I would be laughed at. Why trade youth and both low salary guys when 2013 is a another lost season hopefully at the end of the tunnnel.
“Lucas Duda’s best position is first base, but he will be a left fielder on this team the way it’s constructed”
OK, that is interesting. Do, we perhaps have a real RF on his way?
also interesting that unless he is saying defined platoon, Bay got steamrolled.
as to Bay, his comment makes perfect sense. They don’t have to pay a dime before ST to him, so assuming (safe IMO!) that he does not get traded, he will report to ST if he feels like playing and getting paid again.
now, making it to the OD roster, that is a whole different story, and I don’t think he does.
What I got out of this was:
Do not expect a Upton or anyone making more than 4-5 million a year to be traded here. Maybe players with two or less year in majors. Until we get rid of Bay (trade?) & Santana contracts, we will be pinching dollars.
I hope he does NOT even think of trading Ike Davis.
Mets pitching is not in bad shape so instead of moving major league ready young talent that has proved they can play up here like Niese & Ike (who i now predict to be a prolific 40 HR/yr guy) what about considering moving Wheeler for the same type of player that got you him? That’s what they need right?
The return for Wheeler could be a huge move to put this team back in the race and draw fan interest for 2013.
Ultimately if i had to chose to keep Wheeler, Harvey, Niese, & Ike i would prefer to do that and move Wright for an OFer w/power and/or speed and a relief pitcher since I think Wright is over-rated i wouldn’t mind that.
But moving an unproven Wheeler for a similar type player/players that what you got him for in the first place to build the team now should not be completely ignored
He mentioned that Harvey and Wheeler were just about untouchable, so I would think lower guys in minors. I would go after guys like Bourjos, Bonafacio, Revere or Lorrenzo Cain, J. Dysson from KC who has to make room for W. Myers. Any of them can play CF and leadoff.
Also sounds like Thole is gone. Need upgrade anyway.
Alderson has not given me reason to find him trustworthy. Talk is cheap and is what Alderson has thus displayed – a penchant for empty words, half-as_s commitments, as well as dancing around the issues, committing himself to nothing but living in the past.
We need GM who is honest and trustworthy, someone who is direct and has the ability to change with the times, effectively work with the payroll he has and be open to backloading which he said yesterday he isn’t. Alderson is not the right person for the job – a more competent GM would have us better positioned at the major league level after two full seasons and be prepared to truly compete in 2013. Alderson is stuck in his ways to the detriment of this team. Any GM worth his salt would trade surplus of young pitching, at or close to major league ready, for talented position players who could help us at weak positions for years to come. One cannot get without a willingness to give back useable value in return.
Sandy Alderson:
Making M. Donald Grant look good since 2010
Now there is a slogan for the team to use! LOL
Sandy talks right out of his blank blank, i mean the man still thinks the year is in th late 80′s or early 90′s. This man has no vision just like the damn wilpons, We need players bottom line. The mets have more money than they say, just like politics, just want us to no nothing. I’m tired of their mistakes, just man up and get rid of terry and his crew, they did nothing down the stretch, the coaches could have done a better job, the hitting was horrible, not protecting the plate with two strikes, taking bad pitches instead of striking out, change the line up better, pitching was horrible too. so where did the coaches help this team at all. Where was terry, just crying really, a grown man crying, where was his emotion, where was the fire. No where to be found, so i blame sandy, the wilpons and the mets manager and his coaches for the second half break down. grow the hell up and show us fans what we want from our team.
Ike is so gone and it is soooooooooo stupid a move to make..
Markcomic1 — It’s not good and it’s not bad until we know what we’re getting in return. Same goes for every player on the roster.
Sandy’s concern with the “hitting approach” troubles me…
there is no 1 size fits all when it comes to a hitting approach…it really varies on a case by case basis…
not swinging at the 1st pitch approach worked wonders for guys who were impatient like Valdespin and Reyes…and absolutely does nothing for other players…
the reason being….
is b/c pitchers who were accustomed to throwing outside of the strike zone on guys like reyes found themselves behind the count…then had to come into reyes’s zone…thats how he got that batting title…
a pitcher’s approach to Jose Reyes w/ Thole batting behind him is going to be TOTALLY different than the approach to Lucas Duda with Wright batting behind him….
but according to Sandy…the approach should be the same…
Just_Da_Damaja — “Sandy’s concern with the “hitting approach” troubles me…”
What is Sandy’s hitting approach? Seems that based on Sandy’s comments there are at least two different versions being circulated on MMO.
Well Sandy himself has said that he prefers a more patient approach…
now in theory…this is fine….
in practice…it really DEPENDS on the situation…
HoJo for example was the extreme opposite…and thats just as bad too…there are times when u have to work a count…there are times when u jump on a 1st pitch meatball…
For example, if Greg Maddux ( circa 1995 ) is on his A game…or Glavine…aka control guys who dont typically throw mistake pitches down the plate….
if a guy like that is getting ahead 0-1, or 0-2…the chances of u getting on base have decreased exponentially…
if they throw a mistake down the plate….and u refuse to swing b/c Sandy Alderson wants you to take more pitches…and you end up with a .188 batting average like Ike had earlier…you will have a very short career…
I believe this is why they did not send Ike down in May/June when he was stinking up the joint…essentially he was trying their way…
when he abandoned it…and went to his hitting approach…that he has had since HS….he hit .263 with 27 HR and 70 RBI in the last 87 games of the season…
avg out over a whole season thats 45 HR and around 140 RBI
When Ike said f-u to Sandy’s approach…AND it resulted in positive results…we then heard Matt Cerrone, Keith Hernandez and the rest of the crew start throwing Ike under the bus…
a few weeks ago, Cerrone in defending the leaked story that Adam Rubin broke out about trading Ike, actually had the nerve to call Ike Davis “aloof”…and said that was a good reason to trade him…a few minutes after met fans started calling him a puppet…Cerrone took down the comment and changed his tune…
This organization is STILL a mess.
“in practice…it really DEPENDS on the situation…”
BINGO!
Nothing wrong with being patient at the plate SOMETIME!
Other times it is the wrong thing to do especially with a pitcher known for pounding the Strike zone and throwing 1st pitch strike more than 60 of the time!
The problem isn’t “The APproach” itself it is the notion that one approach works for everyone, everyday, and any situation.
A Smart General doesn’t always attack his opponent the same way day in and day out. If he does the enemy will know what to expect and exploit it.
And THAT is what happened to the PPPA (and every other metric) in the second half.
I’m simply throwing this out there as a topic of discussion, but Ike Davis used to be an outfilder in college. How about have Davis play the outfield in ST to see how he does and move Duda to first in ST for a couple of games and see how that works out. That way Duda can be at first and Davis can still be on the team. I know that Davis is the better fielder at first than Duda, but if Duda is competent at first then it’s something. If Davis can play left field well then we might have something here. It’s just a suggestion and I’d like to see what you guys have to think about this.
Excuse any typos, I’m quite tired and proofreading is quite hard to do in my current state.
I’ve said the same thing, but I think he’s about as lumber footed as Duda and plays a much better 1B than Duda. Not sure flip flopping them really adds much defensively to the team, meaning the decrease in D at 1B for Duda isn’t adding much to the OF D.
DW_________”There are no guarantees of a resolution to a contract extension, but we are going to move on this very quickly.”
Trade the man and improve. Give Ike 12 M per year before arbitration. Lock him up. It can be backloaded. Our new core is Ike, Niese (already locked up) and Harvey.Carry on with a new core as the big apple is pittiful.
This was a GM that said this time last year that the 2012 payroll would be “around $100-110 million”. He was only off by $10-20 million (and his inclusion of K-Rod’s buyout and 40 man roster costs to get to $100 million was ludicrous). He has zero credibility when it comes to public statements. He has not made a single roster move that did not involve reducing salary. We got the whispering campaign about Pagan and his bad attitude and low and behold he and his $5 million salary were traded for Andres Torres and Ramon Ramirez (whose combined salary was $5million). So you weakened your offense and your defense. Then we heard Ramirez was the prime target and a “power arm”. Yet, even out of spring training he was behind Francisco, Rauch and Parnell and he went downhill from there. So the much touted “new and improved” scouting was either a failure or this was a straight salary dump. Case can be made for either given the number of awful relief pitchers acquired in the last two years (Carrasco, Beato, Herrera, Bucholz, etc)
Now we get the same whispering campaign about Davis and they have been talking about trading him for weeks. That’s a curious decision for a team desperate for power and offense (not to mention his good glove work). But he’s due for salary arbitration. So we get another whispering campaign that he’s a partier and he’s uncoachable. Probably gets traded for a rookie outfielder making the league minimum.
Yes Omar Minaya made bad decisions and should have been fired. But could any GM predict that the owner’s financial troubles would require a $50 million reduction in payroll. You could understand going from $140 million to $110-$120. But it went all they way to $90 million. That is bad enough without being lied to about it.
Next year, Santana and Bay and their $50 million come off the books. It should be a no-brainer that you tell FA’s and others that we can’t pay much in 2013 but can start doing so in 2014. The fact we get these cryptic corporate-speak statements from Alderson tells me that the Wilpons are going to reduce payroll under the $91 million in 2014.
Meanwhile, Brandon Nimmo, the Mets #1 pick under Alderson, hit .193 after the All Star break. In A ball. A player they just coincidentally paid about $600,000 under slot for. In fairness, Michael Fulmer the other first round pick had a good year. But the name of the game with the Mets is saving money so the Wilpons can keep a team they can no longer afford.
“No one on the roster is viewed as ‘untouchable.”
“The Mets intend to keep payroll the same, turn over the roster mostly through trades, and nobody’s safe”
*48 hours later*
“He does not intend to release him (Bay) this winter and said Bay will report with everyone else to Spring Training in February.”
“There will no significant additions to the team via free agency”
“Alderson said it was unlikely he would consider dealing any of his Major League pitchers and Minor League pitchers who are close to joining the majors.”
“Lucas Duda’s best position is first base, but he will be a left fielder on this team the way it’s constructed.”
Don’t you just love the inconsistency of our General Manager?
A) A lot of that is from rumors; Alderson never specifically said a lot of it.
B) The things that he did say don’t contradict each other.
Wish Mike asked Sandy his take on some of the things we have been talking about here on MMO:
1) Kevin Burkhardt’s report that the clubhouse felt it was kicked in the teeth by the front office.
2) The team approach of taking pitches in light of both Ike Davis being turned loose and having a fine second half – including that 12 first pitch home runs – plus criticism about that philosophy being advertised actually working against the team.
3) Why are David Wright and R.A. Dickey unclear about efforts for the team trying to be competitive?
He would have but Mike Fell Asleep.
Hi Metsie,
Another question Mike could have asked “why concentrate more on reducing payroll instead of investing more into it so to bring in more revenue than the extra added expense?”
My guess is that Sandy would reply:
“Statistics showed that in 2009 that we could retain the high standards deservant of this great franchise of ours by drawing just a modest 38,1000 per game based on the higher cost of ticket prices and luxury seats after building a park the fans demanded of us so they could sit closer to the action. The stats also showed that in order to retain our high standards each season we had no other choice but to gradually increase those costs over the years to maintain a high payroll. But fans were not willing to spend that type of money for a ball game.
“What the fans could not understand is that building a smaller capacity ballpark was in their own interests and to give them the team they deserved by signing more high priced free agents and extending the contracts of the stars we already had on top we had no other recourse but to charge them those high ticket prices and processing fees plus concessions.
“So you can see, it was the fans fault that caused these problems. We gave them what they wanted – a new ballpark and high priced free agents yet they only saw themselves as victims, that we owed them something and that they were not willing to take responsibility for their own ball club.
“With an ungrateful fan base like that, Mike, what the f**k can you expect me to do about it?”
Easy:
Met Fan:
what does money have to do with being forced to play Jason Bay in LF over Lucas Duda…why couldnt you have put the slower Duda in LF, the faster Bay in RF…?
I can answer that….
If your a person who values money more than performance your also the same type to think NOT playing a 16 MIl player is wasting more money because of some veiled hope he will play like a 16 Mil player just as long as you put him out there!
It’s more about not wanting to admit a mistake in most cases than anything to do with finances.
If they were really and truly interested about what is wasted they would value that wasted roster spot as much as they value the 16 Mil they are paying him no matter where he goes!
because you can’t spend what you don’t have. Especially because the trickle down effect would be a hope, not a guarantee. But the bi-weekly checks, they would be real.
That’s part of the problem. We all know that investing in the right players can increase attendance and revenue. The problem is that you have to be in a situation where if that deal doesn’t work it doesn’t cost you your franchise. The Mets were not in that position and honestly there hasn’t been anyone on the FA market worthy of placing themselves in that position other than maybe Pujols and Fielder.
Do you have to already be in that situation BEFORE you sign him?
Or do you sign a guy who you KNOW will be a big enough draw and marketing tool to ensure you get into that position that doesn’t screw you.
If you pick smartly and evaluate the player correctly, get the right player then there is no risk involved.
Carlos Beltran signing was no risk at all.
And he immediatly caused a run on season tickets that paid HIS salary and then some.
“Do you have to already be in that situation BEFORE you sign him?”
Yes.
“Or do you sign a guy who you KNOW will be a big enough draw and marketing tool to ensure you get into that position that doesn’t screw you.”
No, Texas failed doing that with Alex Rodriguez.
“If you pick smartly and evaluate the player correctly, get the right player then there is no risk involved.”
There’s always risk. You try to mitigate it as much as you can.
“Carlos Beltran signing was no risk at all.
And he immediatly caused a run on season tickets that paid HIS salary and then some.”
I’m pretty sure David Wright, Jose Reyes and Carlos Delgado giving us a really solid line up and winning games helped with that after 2005. Especially after 2005.
More Fantasy from the Fairy Tale king….
Attendance in Texas 2000 2.58M 31.9K per game
Attendance in 2001 once A-Rod was signed 2.83M 34.5K per game. a Gain of 2600 more tickets per game and a total of 242,620 more tickets sold in a year!
So Much for Donal and his bull about it not increasing ticket sales for the Rangers!
You got proof that Attendance is from something else or it actually went down let us all know there Donal!
But until you have some facts to back it up we all would prefer not to hear your factless rantings.
See bellow. They lost more tickets having a crappy 2001 than they gained signing him.
Everyone got all excited signing him, but by June, people remembered the team sucked and stopped going. Then, they didn’t buy tickets for the rest of his time there.
Yet signing him made tickets go up thank you for proving my point!
And not signing someone else made the hope they had the team was going to build a winner go down and hence the ticket sales went with it!
Did they win games as you suggest to make that attendance go up in 2001?
NO! So Poof goes yout fantasy logic!
No, not winning with him made that hope decrease.
If they had won with him, but did not sign any other big free agent, would ticket sales the following year continue to decrease?
If they did not have him but won, would ticket sales have continued to decrease?
So, you can run around and rant and declare yourself victor, but you just aren’t up to speed with everyone else.
Keep Squirming your way out of it doggie!
What I said as true!
They signed a Big Name and ticket sales went up even though they didn’t win!
Not by a few hundred but a few hundred thousand!
Oakland won this year and quite a few others and yet they still have never achieved thier attendance they had as far back as 1991!
Beltran was the best overall player from a defensive and offensive standpoint on a very good balanced offensive team…
Gold Glove defense…better than anyone else on the team
gazelle type speed…second only to Reyes
pure power..second only to Delgado…
…and the funny thing is…8 years later…Carlos Beltran puts up a season where he would lead the mets in almost every single offensive category and still be the best defensive OF on the team…
Sign the right player and it’s not a trickle down it’s a virtual Season Ticket flood!
You guys have to stop looking at attendance from the perspective of what would make YOU buy more day of game or advanced tickets.
Neither of those sales pay the bills in any meaningful way.
You fix the revenue by getting more people to buy season packages which is all paid for before Spring Training even starts.
It also removes the WIN aspect to ticket sales as there are no refunds and that means you will go to more games (since you paid for them) regardless of the team performance and that means more concession money on top of it.
The average Joe Fan doesn’t usually buy ticket via season plans due to the cost, They decide to go to games in the same way they decide to go to see a movie.
The Die Harders are the ones who buy the sunday plans and other season packages that pay the bills and set the teams finances for the year.
And those revenues are in thier bank account before Spri Training even starts!
Like it did when the Rangers signed Alex Rodriguez? How it sold tickets the first year? But they still sucked so people stopped coming out and the team didn’t sell any concessions or merchandise? And then they sold fewer season tickets the next year? How attendance went into a free fall afterwards?
Remember how you already acknowledged all of this?
Signing a big name player is good a for a big splash moment, hence Jason bay being on the club.
But, if he falters or the team isn’t very good (we have a double whammy right now) it is merely another long term expense.
You need to build a solid team first, then get the super star to put you over the top.
HI Donal,
You and Metsie both make valid points which shows there has to be flexibility and not just a firm stance.
Metsie, you are right about the season ticket holders being the main focus and I did mention season tickets too but lumped them all together with the attendance figures. But I think the principle still stands for even those became un-affordable for both companies and individuals. I know a vendor whose company had season tickets for the Yankees – as we know the big ticket in town – and often gave them to my boss but his company did not renew them because he said they became too expensive and that was back around 2007 before the economic crisis.
Well Joey Mets tickets are much cheaper than Yankee, Jet, Giant, Ranger and Nets tickets and they don’t seem to have a problem selling them.
Yep EXACTLY like that….
Unless you can prove their attendance didn’t go up that year your pretty much just playing Fantasy Point debate here!
Which is what your best at!
You’ve already conceded my point. You even admitted you are hanging your hat on how full Ballpark at Arlighton looked in April of 2001.
But snce you need it shoved down you throat again
http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2001
Texas 2,831,111
http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2002
Texas 2,352,447
Almost half a million drop off
http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2003
Texas 2,094,394
Here’s their attendance for 2000, the year before they signed Rodriguez
2,588,401
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2000-misc.shtml
So, in Rodriguez’s second year, they actually drew less than the year before he arrived.
And in Donal’s Fantasy world 2.8 Mil is less than 2.5 mil!
Also 4 is less than 3, Up is down and sideways is straight ahead!
Get a clue dude!
it went down the year after they signed A-Rod because they didn’t keep signing guys in an effort to help him!
Keep fooling youself but you ain’t follin anyone on THIS site…
Just exposing how useless you are in making a point that doesn’t exist but you wish did!
“And in Donal’s Fantasy world 2.8 Mil is less than 2.5 mil!”
No, I said they increased preseason sales for 2001. that was never in contention.
However, when the team still sucked, despite their super star, gate attendance and concession and merchandise sales declined through the year and they sold fewer tickets for 2002 than they did for 2000. Do you contest this?
You know what is less than 2.5? 2.3 and 2.09.
“it went down the year after they signed A-Rod because they didn’t keep signing guys in an effort to help him!”
But they had their star! According to you, that is all they needed.
Are you saying I was in fact right? That a winning team provides longer, more sustainable sales?
Or are you going to tell us the smarter move would to be to go out every year and sign the biggest free agent out there? How long until the fans get tired of that?
What you are advocating is a bait and switch.
“Keep fooling youself but you ain’t follin anyone on THIS site…
Just exposing how useless you are in making a point that doesn’t exist but you wish did!”
I used to think you were short sighted. Now, it is clear you are just plain blind.
And why did they increase because of all the winning they did that year?
Or because of what I said?
I BIG SIGNING sells ticvkets for the entire year no matter how many games you win!
Back to back World Series. their big free agent signing was Yu Darvish. And they lost CJ Wilson, their ace, to a division rival. I doubt Darvish was selling tickets like that on his own. They weren’t even sure he would start the season with the big club.
“I BIG SIGNING sells ticvkets for the entire year no matter how many games you win!”
It sells tickets for April. Building a winning team sells tickets in October and the following April.
If your big signing flops or the team doesn’t win, all you have is those presales. People stop coming so you don’t get to count the concessions and it will be harder to sell season tickets the following year, even if you sign a big name player.
But, if you build a solid team that competes without the super star (or even develop your own), you sell tickets and then you can get a star free agent to put you over the top.
No team in the MLB has an “APRIL” season ticket plan!
You are so stupid you thought that was a good thing to post!
People bought those tickets under the assumption that he would make them a playoff team. That didn’t happen, so they stopped going and didn’t buy tickets the next year.
Again, you are advocating a bait and switch. You just want to trick fans into buying tickets for a shiny new toy, bot actually make a better team.
And all it does it point out what frauds you and the ones cuddling up to you are. Not one mention from you about actually making the Mets better, just buying a big name for preseason sales. And you’re even rooting for the Yankees now just so the Mets can look bad.
Pitiful.
“No team in the MLB has an “APRIL” season ticket plan!”
A handful every year have October plans, though. And you don’t get what I mean by selling out in April even though I’ve explained it repeatedly.
No they bought those tickets under the assumption that the team was done playing around and was seriously ready to create a playoff team.
Only a dolt like you would think getting ONE player constitutes a SLAM DUNK playoff that year!
They went and got a star and got the draw the HOPE from a star gets you! Then they failed to sustain the notion they were playing to win by going and getting him help.
WHy am I even arguing with a guy who thinks Season Tickets only are sold for April games?
ugh… i think i’m a better option than jason bay at this point.(i actually play baseball though)
Sometimes you shill like a nut, sometimes you dont. They slant almost everything there now.
RE JoeD’s added bits….
Lying is not productive, Not from the fan standpoint, not from the making deal standpoint and certainly not productive to do when dealing with the press!
It only gives them something to take you to task on later when what you said doesn’t match up with what you do!
The press just lives for the day you lie to them and they can prove it! Thats a week worth of stories minimum! An EASY paycheck!
It’s not so much that Sandy feeds them (US) a pile of bull, it’s the bull that never happens, the few truths that should never be said, PLUS the letting on about what you expect to accomplish and then failing at it that kills you.
SO you say your making Reyes a priority then refuse to make an offer.
Say your going to improve the Bullpen but fail miserably.
And part of that failure is because every FA in the league knew you were broke before FA started and knew your call and offer was not even worth listening to!
Not giving up your plan and situation is a good thing provided you don’t disguise it in a lie!
Lying just makes you look like an idiot because the people you thought to fool will simply think your as clueless as you thought they were when it doesn’t come to pass!
People aren’t dumb they are merely complacent UNTIL they think your taking them for a fool.
You should never lie! If you feel you need to then don’t and instead try and avoid the topic altogether..
If the truth can hurt you then hide it or avoid that truth in the press. Never broadcast your weakness to your opponent. Why do you think you hadn’t heard about Dickey’s abdominal muscles all year? Because why give the opponent the benefit of knowing his weakness?
So in the end Sandy tells the truth when he shouldn’t and when he doesn’t makes up a lie! Add the truth he says he fails to bring and pretty much you have the situation Sandy is in now, No One buys what your saying!
You think the media want the truth? Aww, that is adorable. The media wants drama, whether you are lying or not, you will get attacked by someone because they have a narrative already set out and they need it filled. If you tel lthem to straight truth but it doesn’t fit said narrative, they’ll spin it to do so. It’s their job.
You lie because the masses are indeed idiots. How else do explain shows like 2 Broke Girls staying on the air?
You lie and tell them something that shuts them up for 5 bloody minutes so you can go do your job. You say empty generic, sugar coated things so the mouth breathers calling WFAN can keep telling themselves they have a handle on how things are run and are in on the deals.
You lie because you’d rather not broadcast your plans to the entire flippin world. This isn’t testimony before Congress. It is a poker game.
You stop lying when you actually have to sign stuff.
” The media wants drama, ”
Yup this applies to any major news organization in sports or out of sports.
The Mets dont have to lie to make drama. Tell the f***ing truth or say you cant comment on that like honest GM’s do. You sound like you’re perfectly alright with a lying sack of shit for a GM.
Given by your name and how you decided to end your post, do you really think he should worry about appeasing you or making you feel good?
Should a GM go day to day taking the temperature of the fans? Or should he just do what he’s trying to do and win?
If the Mets make the become a legit contender in the next or 4 years, will you care about this interview?
Or will it be “I don’t care we made 3 NLCS! He lied to me!”
Listen, I know the world is going to hell in a hand basket and that lying is okay and everybody does it today. It’s the new cool thing to do. Live with your lies and your liar while I hope for a better breed of human being for a GM. OK?
So, if the Mets become a winning team due to his work, you still won’t cheer for them?
ROFLMAO….Give us all a call when he makes a winning team….
So far two years of work and all he has done is make us 5 games WORSE not better!
What has he shown in two years that gives you any indication that things will dramatically improve? We’re still paying below slot for prospects so the farm system doesn’t look to get any better. We have Zach Wheeler and that’s about it. All he has to say is we have a limited payroll and it won’t get better until 2014. You wonder whether his speech to the season ticketholders was a sham just to get them to buy packages and then trade Wright and Dickey. Dolan did this with the Lin release, he waited until the commitment date on packages and then announced Lin wasn’t coming back.
Is that what I said Donal or just what you would have liked me to say? Seems most of your answers towards me are based on the latter not the former…
The press wants a story!
They don’t care if you lie in fact they LOVE IT when you lie so they get a week worth of stories when they catch you in the lie!
Point missed by you as usual!
It is amazing how far behind you are.
THEY DON”T CARE! Most of them already have angle they are following. It doesn’t matter how truthful you are with them.
Plus, if you end up winning, all of that stuff gets forgotten.
Yep They don’t care…EXACTLY WHAT I SAID!
They actually LOVE IT WHEN YOU LIE!
Catch up already!
One more losing season and Sandy sets the MLB record for most losing seasons in a row for a GM. The Biggest Loser! Dont hold your breath Donal. Focus on smaller goals like beating Minaya’s winning percentage first, then go up from there.
Who cares what Matt Cerrone says? I stopped going there to get away from him and the last thing you should do is bring his dumb opinions here. Are you serious with this? Come on dude, you have a great site and you don’t need to post shit like this.
^this.
THIS!!! X2