9
2012
Braves GM Discusses Flaws With Wild Card Format, Infield Fly Rule
An article by Craig Lerner
Atlanta Braves GM Frank Wren, made a few suggestions about the Wild Card format during an interview with David O’Brien of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.
Did this game show what some view as an inherent flaw in the Wild Card single-game playoff?
“All of us at the general managers meeting when we talked about this format, it’s not a format that’s indicative of the best team. When you’re playing for six months and 162 games, this is not a sport where you play 20 games. This is not a sport where you play a handful of games, and then one game is appropriate. This is a sport where it’s about series, it’s about winning series. And one game is kind of a harsh reality.”
Could you see Major League Baseball tweaking the format?
“I think there’s a lot of people that love it. They love the drama. They’re not sitting where we’re sitting this morning. They love the drama, and I understand that. I’ve watched those 163rd games over the years and thought about, this is baseball drama at its best. I’ve also seen a real good friend of mine, David Dombrowski, play in one of those games a couple of years ago, and see what a crushing defeat it is. It’s a little bit different, that being a tie at the end of the season and a 163rd game. Postseason is supposed to be different.”
“Really what came down to the crux of the problem when we discussed it at the general managers level – obviously this is a decision made above the general managers level – but you don’t want to disadvantage the division winners as well, by having them sit. Because in many cases — and we’ve experienced it with the Braves over the years, where we clinched on the 20th of September and you’re now getting your team ready, and you lose that edge — well now all of a sudden you sit four or five days to play your first playoff game, there’s a good chance to lose your edge. So it’s a difficult fix, to say the least.”
Thinking outside the box, could they perhaps play a three-game Wild Card series in two days?
“That’s one off the things we discussed at the general managers meetings, make it a best two-out-of-three and play a split doubleheader the first day. I think all of us would prefer that. I mean, if you’re playing a team that’s got Randy Johnson — they really don’t have much else, but they’ve got Randy Johnson – you’re likely going to lose. But that same team is going to go into the playoffs and get swept.
“I guess it’s trying to fit everything into a neat little package that may not fit very well.”
On the infield-fly rule, do you think there might be a time where they change it, maybe say you can’t go more than 200 feet out, put a line down or something?
“I don’t know. It really comes down to umpire’s judgement. There’s always case studies after things happen, and usually it takes something like this for it to be studied further. I can’t remember, and I’ve been in the game 34 years, I can’t remember an infield fly rule having this big of an impact, and being talked about. So there’s a first time for everything.
“But that’s not the reason we lost the ballgame. We didn’t lose the ballgame because of that call. We lost the ballgame because we didn’t make routine plays. We had three of them that came back and bit us. And that’s not indicative of the way we played all year long. We played pretty sound baseball all year long. If there was any question about our club over the course of the season, it was would we be consistent enough offensively. And what did we end up with, 12 hits [in the Wild Card game]? If we make plays we win the game 2-1 or 3-1. They score one run. I know they end up getting more earned runs than that, because you can’t assume a double play. But they shouldn’t have scored.”
Read the rest of this interview here.
I thought this one-game Wild Card Round was a bad idea from day one. It doesn’t fit with the structure of the game in the grand scheme of things. When two teams face off in a minimum of a three game series, you test each team’s depth in the rotation, bullpen and bench. It’s a better indicator of which team is better at that time, and in the context of the post season, which team gets to advance to the next round. To go through the grind of a 162 game season to try and win a wild card, and then for it to be all over after a one game playoff, makes very little sense. This year it happened to the Braves, one year it could happen to the Mets.
About the Author: Craig Lerner
I'm a data analyst and researcher for a leading news agency who loves life and is hooked on the Mets. I love following the Amateur Draft and have a particular fondness for the Mets Minor Leagues who I follow each day. Give me a cold beer, a summer day, and a Mets game, and I'm good to go.
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I’d be curious what Wren’s public opinion would have been had they won that game.
I watched it and he’s right….that game wasn’t lost on the IF fly rule call. It was lost because of the Braves poor defense to start and their inability to capitalize on getting runners on base home.
I don’t know what the answer is. You’re never going to please all of the people all of the time, no matter what they do. w though, that I don’t want to see them playing baseball deep into November.
Read the entire interview and found this tidbit below interesting. Seems like the Braves are working towards the same type of patience-at-the-plate approach that the Mets are:
A year ago when you fired hitting coach Larry Parrish, you talked about requiring a better approach at the plate from hitters. Were you satisfied with the approach in the first season under new hitting coach Greg Walker and assistant Scott Fletcher?
“Very much so. I think we started from the beginning of spring training with a real battling approach. You look at early in the season, I thought up until the All-Star break we did a really good job of that. I think that kind of whittled away a little bit in the second half, and Greg will tell you that. And it’s not because he stopped preaching it. I think hitters will sometimes get less patient.
“But we saw a lot of games where we got the other team’s starter up around 100 pitches in the fifth inning. And that’s the goal. That’s the goal, to make them pitch and make them make their pitches to get you out. And I thought we did a very good job of that throughout the year, and I think it’s only going to get better. Because there’s a lot of nights where we’ve got three or four young hitters in that lineup, and as they learn their craft and become more patient, look for a better pitch, they’re just going to get that much better.”
More:
Could that decline in patience in second half also have contributed to the team’s reduced average when hitting with runners in scoring position? (The Braves finished the season tied for last in the majors with a .231 average with runners in scoring position.)
“I think there’s probably no coincidence. Because when you get over-anxious as a hitter, you really fall into the strategy of the pitcher, because he’s going to try to get you out with his pitch. And especially with runners in scoring position, they’re not going to serve you something over the middle of the plate, unless it’s a mistake. You’ve got to make them come to you. And usually, that’s not swinging at the first pitch.”
Yeah, some try to throw this on moneyball. This doesn’t have the slightest thing to do with moneyball. It’s just the evolution of baseball. The Yankees were doing this years ago. The fact is since expansion, the specilization of middle relief pitchers and the increased awareness of pitch counts, the worst pitchers on your team are constantly pitching in big spots. That is where the game is won today. In the 4th-7th innings. Get to those guys early and you have the advantage. How do you do that? Make the starter work. That being said, the goal is to get them not only to throw a ton of pitches but to actually concede and throw pitches over the plate. Again, it’s not a cookie cutter approach that some preach. That would be saying you have to have this stance or that stance. Many high school coaches actually do that to produce inside out short swings, the Mets, Yankees, Braves, Red Sox, etc are not doing that. What they are saying from ground up is to be selective and force the pitcher to throw pitches that you can do damage on. One of the things that the detractors seem to ignore is the comments on two strike hitting. About how the Mets and these other teams focus on two strike hitting because if they can continue to fight with two strikes they can extend the AB. No where in that includes teaching them to take a called 3rd strike.
“When you’re playing for six months and 162 games, this is not a sport where you play 20 games. This is not a sport where you play a handful of games, and then one game is appropriate. This is a sport where it’s about series, it’s about winning series. And one game is kind of a harsh reality.”
I think that when one is playing for six months and 162 games, he should be grateful that a team that loses it’s division by four games (and another by nine) even gets a chance at the world series instead of going home. Baseball used to be the only team sport where winning the regular season meant something and the other teams went home.
What about a team winning 87 games getting their division?
Hi Donal,
That actually happened often with the old two team division set up – I think the Twins of 1987 won that many. We know it happened with the 73 Mets.
But at least they were still best of the rest but it really made the other division losers grimace – especially with Minnesota when the AL played a balanced schedule so it was just a matter of which division they were placed it.
Even before divisions, the grumblings were so many second and third place clubs in the national league could have run away with the pennant if in the junior circuit due to it’s lack of stars in the mid sixties.
I don’t know exactly how this “AB patience” and “making the pitcher work” hitting plan is being taught by the coaches but if it involves taking the first pitch I am totally against it. The goal of all pitchers is not to get behind in the count, therefore the first pitch the batter sees could be the best hitting pitch of the AB. I’m not against this approach, I just feel batters should have as much latitude as possible on the first pitch. Obvioulsy game situations should and will negate first pitch swinging, but most times it should be swing away.
On the MLB level it isn’t being taught to always take the first pitch. It is to only swing at pitches you can do damage with early in the count. At least that is what Hudgens has always said. Long before Sandy.
It involves taking the first pitch and the second pitch. This is just a ridiculous fad, one of many in baseball over the century that just come and go. There is no science behind taking pitches is a theory and one that hasn’t proven to be a key to a world series championship. You sttill need star players to do that.
Take the Mets for example, Alderson recently said he was overjoyed at the approach in the first half, but then in the same breath said they were playing over their heads and there were hidden flaws. So he credits the Mets success in first half on hitters taking the approach, and at the same time blasts them as not being that good?
What gives?
That’s the great thing about sports/playoffs…many times the best team doesn’t win in the playoffs…if the “best” team always winning was the case, then why even bother at all.
And by his logic, even if you win the WC playoff because you’re the “better team”, you’ll still lose in the next round because the next team is better than you.
You don’t want to face a one game elimination, then win your division. You want to complain that you wrapped up a play spot so early that your team will “lose that edge” really? So then every team that clinches early is going to lose? If your team can’t find their edge in a one game playoff, then the won’t get it in a three game playoff.
No playoff system is perfect, but i think that this is the best one they have so far.
It keeps the teams in the race longer and gives a reason to win the division. The divisions give a team/fan representation from a wide range of markets across the whole county.
“All of us at the general managers meeting when we talked about this format, it’s not a format that’s indicative of the best team. When you’re playing for six months and 162 games, this is not a sport where you play 20 games. This is not a sport where you play a handful of games, and then one game is appropriate. This is a sport where it’s about series, it’s about winning series. And one game is kind of a harsh reality.”
- I agree but I also do not think a best of 5 or 7 series is indicative of the best team either.
- I like the idea of the split doubleheader, but it doesn’t work in a 2/3 format. Because what you’re saying is the “better of the 2 wildcards plays deciding game 3 on the road.” Team owners would never be down for that.
At the end of the day, a wildcard team is lucky to have a chance and whether it’s 1, 3, 5, or 7 game series its still diminishing the value of 162 games.
The new Wildcard format accomplished it’s goal of giving back importance to winning your division. I understand the Braves GM feelings on the single game elimination but the answer is then win your division next time. Isn’t it enough that two 2nd place teams make the postseason? I can imagine Texas next year will remember what not winning the division cost them and that is the goal unlike years past where teams were not concerned so much if they did not win a division and rather the wildcard. Now winning the wildcard and not the division comes with more risk.
This concept of trying to get the pitcher’s pitch count up in order to get him out of the game – without knowing who is pitching, how they have been pitching recently, and how he pitches as the game progresses is one of the most DUMBEST concepts to ever infiltrate baseball.
You don’t WORK to get the pitcher out of the game, you play your game to get the pitcher out of the game. What works for one batter does not work for the other ESPECIALLY when it’s the middle of the order’s job to drive them in. And let’s not forget situational hitting too when it’s necessary to move a runner over and there can be a number of reasons for this and one of them is that the starting pitcher is too dominant today, has impeccable control, and you’re going to have to scratch for runs.
Ridiculously stupid concept.
Hi Bayonne,
Absolutely right about the basic concept of hitting and pitching. It doesn’t take a statitician to appreciate that.
The problem with Sandy, however, is that as an “observer” (as admitted) he believes that his analyzing of advanced statistical information has built up his baseball knowledge to that of a PROFESSIONAL level. Bill James and Branch Rickey had decades of baseball experience behind them and formulated advanced statistical analysis to supplement their understading of the game. They did NOT use stats as their initial building blocks for learning.
Mathematics might be seen as the language of the universe, however, it is folly to believe the sport itself can be expressed in numbers just because there are patterns in baseball as well. Unfortunately Sandy, it seems, honestly believes that by identifying them one can find the key ingredients to best attempt putting together a competitive ball club. Even Branch Rickey in that article for LIFE magazine, said there were factors that stats could never take into account – even simple ones like Babe Ruth’s eyesight and Rodgers Hornsby’s arrogance.
This is what happens when one allows a legal and financial expert to assume the final say in baseball responsibilities. Fred Wilpon should have relinquished his title of CEO (remaining President) and given that to Sandy which is more presentative of Alderson’s talents – and not allowing him to pick his General and Assistant General Managers and to leave that to a search committee.
You’re painting this with too broad a brush, IMO
Frank Wren is an ex-minor league baseball player.
SA is not.
Yet they seem to be preaching the same type of approach at the plate.
I like the playin game. If you are going to have a wild card, this at least makes it meaningful.
people seem to forget the years where the yankees and red sox locked up the division and WC early, and both went into get lined up for the playoffs mode early, even though the Sox were only a few games out. basically, winning the division meant less to them than getting their rotation set up and having 1 less home game.
well, that is not going to happen with the new format, which IMO is the best reason to support it. Having more teams in the hunt is 2nd to that.
even this year, weren’t the Yankees and Orioles both locked in before the last weekend? Would baltimore have tried as hard (using up SP) if they could have just coasted into WC and played a normal series?
you can certainly look back after the playoffs end and decide if you want to tweak the WC round (2-3 or whatever), but at least they made winning the division worth something again compared to the WC.
Actually, Yankees and Orioles came down to game 162. If the Yankees lost and the Orioles won, they would have been tied for the division and would have had to play a game 163 to decide the division.
The pressure of a real pennant race will never be felt again with this format – except for the wild card entries or teams in a very weak division.
There was a picture of Carl Yaztremski on the cover of a magazine late in the 1967 when there was a four team chase for the American League flag. Yaz looked like he was possessed and freaked out after his swing. It was the pressure they don’t feel today – and we don’t get to enjoy.
and what about the years teams ran away with post to post?
If anything, this year renewed the value of winning the division. Also, the Rays and Angels were in the race until the final week. You can’t say there was no pressure on any of the teams down the stretch.
you can still easily have a race where the winner gets the division, the loser goes home without even the 1 game playoff.
Hi Donal,
I was referring more to the sustained pressure of the winner take all with no safety net built up throughout the season. There was just something about those great races – just as much as there was nothing about those great blowouts when the pennants seemed decided by mid August.
Had the Braves won, would they be questioning anything?
nope
I’m just glad we didn’t have to listen to that bloody tomahawk chant for 3 games! (had to mute the tv)
Hi Amy,
And the fact that a Native American group said they found it insulting and stereo-typing yet the Braves still encourage it doesn’t speak well for the organization. The fans are one thing, but the organization doesn’t have to prompt it on their own through the P.A. system.
The two wild card winners in each league should be playing a two of three series with the extra home game going to the team with a better record during the season. It could take 5 days to complete a 2 of 4 series because of traveling if it is a bi coastal match up. Make the next set of match ups the divisional series a 3 of 5 format and the LCS the best of 7 as well as the World Series.
This scenario will take a month if each series plays its maximum # of games and allows for travel. Bad weather could extend the playoffs into the second week of November if the regular season ends on Oct 3 rd as it did this year.
If the schedule makers are flexible then the regular season can start April 1st by making sure that the colder weather teams open in warmer climates or in domed stadiums. This will be easier to do now that there will constantly be inter league games all year long!
typo error…wild card teams in a 2 of 3 series
sorry