19
2012
The Alderson Era: Waiting Another Year To See Some Results
An article by 
Yesterday, our own Barry Duchan wrote a solid post expressing his dissatisfaction with how things have progressed as we complete year two of the Alderson Era. His argument was not like the usual “WE GOTTA SPEND MONEY” diatribes you see oftentimes, but more of a thoughtful look at some of the shortcomings he saw with regards to working around the money issues by doing a better job on the trade front, and wanting to see more creativity from the three general managers whose job it is to turn this franchise around and point it in the right direction.
One of our longtime readers and friend of the site, Mr. North Jersey, left a very thoughtful comment in response to Barry that provided a nice little contrast to what Barry had to say. I thought it merited a closer examination by our community in case you missed it. Enjoy…
Understanding the need to express displeasure at what has been just a horrible second half. Once past that (easier said than done), there still remains the point that the team, up to now, has continued to allow time for players down on the farm to develop. If pitching is what the team is banking on to turn this team around by making it a strength, then it comes down whether you believe that players like Niese, Harvey, Edgin, Familia, Mejia and Wheeler can be part of what makes that difference.
There is no argument that moves that have been made have not panned out. Primarily the bullpen is cause for concern, and while there have been some pickups that have pitched well in large part like Izzy, Byrdak and Rauch, they have not been good enough to offset many of the other arms like Carrasco, Beato or R. Ramirez for example.
They gambled with Thole and lost. Torres’ hitting was always a question and outside of a brief run to start the 2nd half his bat has been subpar. His glove in the end never really impressed me as being that much better than Pagan’s. Pagan left much to be desired for me to begin with so that doesn’t say much for Torres. Still he was just a place holder for Kirk Nieuwenhuis who was overall very productive as a rookie (even with the strikeouts) up to the Tampa Bay series this season. Kirk’s numbers were comparable to what Pagan put up during that same span. I still feel Kirk will be starting at centerfield for the Mets before all is said and done. He made some mistakes out there, but he also showed enough where I think he could play center at Citi now. Whether it’s in a platoon situation, remains to be seen.
I don’t dismiss the possibility of Ike Davis being traded, but at this time I am of the opinion they would only do so as part of some huge deal that answers their need at some other position be it in the outfield, catcher or possibly second base.
This is without getting into what I still am waiting for some type of explanation on, and that is how do you fail to sign half of your 2012 First Year Player Draft picks? It only irritates me every time I think of it.
Overall while anyone is free and entitled to pass judgement on the Mets Front Office thus far, and many already have as much as it may bother some, my opinion continues to be that while there are obvious causes for concern I still feel the front office deserves three years to see where things are.
Year Three will be interesting to say the least, but for me it’s about winning a World Series, and if the Mets can win a W.S. either next year or say 2014 then I will look back on this season as being worth it for me.
Of course if the opposite occurs and they continue to struggle, then change will be needed and the 3 to 5 year clock will start once again for the next GM.
Mr. North Jersey represents a good portion of the fanbase who feel as he does in terms of giving it three years instead of two. My only problem with that is that I would wait five years as long as I was seeing some progress. My problem is that I have not seen enough progress to suggest that things are getting better.
If you look at it by counting wins, nobody can disagree there is no progress on that front and it will be difficult to eclipse last season’s 77 win total.
If you look at it from a rebuilding standpoint, you have to wonder how we failed to sign a second round pick and 20 other players in this year’s draft. That was a fail.
If you look at it from a position of trading to fill team needs that won’t soon be filled by organizational prospects, you can’t give them a passing grade there either because we now have more needs than ever before.
All that they have done is wait. Wait for Ruben Tejada. Wait for Josh Edgin. Wait for Matt Harvey. That’s great and all, but these players were already here and all teams wait for their farm to produce, it’s not really a strategy more than it is a byproduct of time elapsing whether you do or don’t do anything else.
Thoughts?
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 23 | 18 | .561 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 19 | .548 | 0.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 22 | .476 | 3.5 |
| Mets | 16 | 23 | .410 | 6.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 31 | .262 | 12.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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I had a post on this yesterday that’s gone now…but here’s the highlights…
I’m a die hard and a Mets optimist and apologist. For the past 10 plus years (starting from when I moved out and got cable) I have watched 85% of the games on TV (listened on the radio before that), good seasons or bad. At the end of almost every year, there was reason to believe that next year there was a chance, there was something to look forward to,
Now, I’m not watching the games. It’s not a protest, I have lost interest…I’m bored of watching them play and not scoring runs. If the FO doesn’t believe in the team, it’s hard for me to believe in them either.
Sandy can in and we thought, good here’s a smart guy…just the guy to make smarter FA signings and fix the dysfunction in the farm.
OK, the first year might be bad, but wait until Perez and Castillo’s contracts are off the books, then we’ll have money to actually improve…
…then we said, well now we have to get out from under Beltran’s and K-Rod’s contracts…but 2012 will be better…
…then they said, Reyes is gonna cost money, but maybe we’ll work it out…no sorry…he cost too much…we tried, but we didn’t, maybe a box of candy would’ve worked…but here are some relievers that should make it better…
…Then it was…we got to get the Madoff thing taken care of…it is, but now we have to sell off portions of the team and SNY…we did that, well we still need to payback loans… We (the Mets) are still losing money, but wait until Santana and Bay’s contracts are off the books, then everything will be OK…but maybe too…we really like Wright…we are going to resign him….maybe…we’ll have to wait…and we’d love to give RAD a new contract, but wait, maybe not…
…but don’t worry…maybe trading our few productive players might fix it…but really…don’t expect anything positive to happen until after 2013…
Other teams in weaker markets turn around faster than this…why do we need a five year plan to even reach a above .500 season?
The truth of the matter here is we went from a goodd hitting lineup with no pitching to a good pitching lineup with no hitting!
And the problem Sandy has with that is that he isn’t really responsible for making that good pitching it was already here when he got here!
IF anything he made the pen and hitting worse by trading all of our best hitters for what amounts to pretty much nothing but Wheeler!
The real sad part is the inconsistency in all aspects…hitting was good, but the Pen sucked…Starting was good but the pen sucked…starting was good, but the pen and hitting sucked…starting sucked, but the pen looked good…now the starting is OK, the pen is OK, but there is no hitting…and no improvements for next year.
So, one more year?? and win a championship by next year or 2014?? This is just a terrible article and way to look at it.. Most of us knew the mets had no money and needed to fix their financial situation, enters SA. a guy who most pegged to be some sort of genius for acquiring and finding guys noone else wanted and be good for us.. Since his first acquisition (Brad P_OS eamus) people were excited and even articles were written as to how much smarter than everyone else this guy is, 2 years later, we’re supposed to be happy because we SUCK and are in line to have a top 10 pick? It’s not as if we have some sort of genius running our scout system, the best draft pick EVER for Depodesta has been blake dewitt!! that should tell you all you need to know, that article is nothing but another way to give the guy a break for what’s going on here. the guy imo is not a GM, more like an accountant, who is here to stablish the wilpons with financial flexibility so they can keep the team. from the get go most of us were skeptical of this guy, he’s arrogant and mock the mets fan base every time he gets a chance. he has insulting our intelligence and as a good lawyer does, he lies when he needs to lie to keep fans apeace. the situation of the METS start with the owners i get it, but you cannot tell me that as a GM of a team you won’t have any pride. this guy is on the verge of breaking a 60 year old record for consecutive losing seasons as a GM, that should just be umprecedent!. not even an extra WC team during the season force this guy to be creative, which was his biggest strenght according to everyone who jump on his bandwagon.
Of course, once we started seeing the garbage he was bringing in and we were skeptical of it, we were called haters, lack of baseball knowledge etc, from day one a lot of us knew he was up to no good and it seemed baseball has passed him by, 2 years later people are STILL MAKING EXCUSES for him and now we have gone from blaming omar, the players, the madoff situation to BLAME THE WILPONS IN 2013. but no, he was some sort of genius according to a lot of people. I have never seen this franchise in a pathetic state as we are now. How can a team full of injuries in 2009 be better than this team?? that should be unacceptable as fans of this team, but instead, we celebrate this situation by looking forward to the draft because we might have the #7 pick. Really sad situation in queens to tell you the truth. i am sorry for the metsie like comment, but as a fan, i have never been this disappointed in my life as a fan of this team, and my disappointment is not only with the team, but by the diverse direction the fans of the team have taken, as to follow the GM more than the team they grew up rooting for just because his moneyball/sabermetrics methods are being put in place.
Alex, can someone explain how this formula works…
2011/suck + 2012/suckier + 2013/suck some more = 2014-Championship?
How come every year it’s, wait two more years and then we’ll get a Championship? How do you expect to go from 70 wins to a WS in one year? It’s not normal to have that kind of turnaround.
I don’t expect a overnight turnaround…but some improvement or something to look forward to would be nice.
Ask the Marlins, that was their plan this off-season. LOL.
That’s what pisses me off. This team is much worse than they were a year ago.
So what do we get from the Almighty Sanford this winter? More snark? (should have bought him a box of chocolates)
Let me tackle that for you. It was never give the GM 2 years and then 2 more years from me at least. It was always about a 3 year window to at least see how things have progressed. It would be nice if things were a steady progression in a positive direction but sometimes in baseball that is not always the case. Regardless the end result is about winning a W.S. not incrementally improving every season at least for my part.
This team was never going to be turned around in 1 season and the biggest setback in year 2 in my opinion was the non signing of picks and how badly the pen overall failed. Wright overall had a All-Star season. Tejada had a great rookie year. Niese is finishing off the season strong making the decision to extend him look real good thus far. Murphy has shown that he can indeed play 2b every day until a better alternative is found. Edgin has finally come up and has shown why Backman was so high on him a year ago. Davis has come out on the other end of what has been probably his worst season and has still produced solid HR/RBI numbers. Harvey has finally arrived and is showing in a brief showing that he may just be the real deal.
Now you have year 3 and the biggest factor compared to year 2 is that year 3 will most likely see Harvey, Familia, Mejia, Edgin and Wheeler be a part of it. What the results of this will be remains to be seen but speaking for myself I am looking forward to watching Niese, Harvey, Familia and Edgin next season over a full season.
There is cause for concern clearly but I still see a window where things may look a lot better at this time in 2013. Is it right now a big window? I’d say no but from the start I said I would allow the new FO 3 years to see how things progressed. Others said 2 years some said 2 months. Maybe next year I will be right where some are now. I’ll know soon enough.
Eloquent, nice job. I agree completely.
I understand what you’re saying, and true winning more games doesn’t mean progress.
My problem is, while we got some young players we might see next year…I’m not seeing them as differences makers and I’m not really seeing anything that makes me feel good about next year.
All I hear about is how the team is losing money and how we might have to trade the few producers we have and we are still stuck with players with huge holes in there game and now the same BS we saw with Reyes last year is going on with Wright.
Alex, you say this is a terrible article. It’s not an article. It’s the opinions of three different Mets fans. Barry, Mr. North Jersey and myself who each have a unique and varied opinion.
Obviously those who have read my thoughts on when Alderson came I thought it would take until 2014 to get the ship turned around regardless of who the GM was, I am in agreement with NJ. I stand by my position that after the 2013 season and FA season if the team is not pointed in the right direction I will be there holding the pike for those to run a muck.
USFM, i don’t get it either, and for those mocking the marlins, go and check in the last 20 years who has more championships…. That is all i am gonna say..
It’s a pathetic situation and no TRUE fan of this team should be rooting for the GM instead of the team.. How can someone not apologize in public for beng happy we will be the #7 team to pick in the draft? what’s so exciting about a team that SUCKS pickign early!? and mind you, no significant injuries derailed the season or anything, this was a complete failure, yet you still have people pointing the finger elsewhere instead of where at this point should be at… the FO and their pathetic desicions..
Joe d, did not mean to offend anyone, but i wholeheartedly disagree with anyone making up excuses for THREE GM to be in place and not make good desicions… it’s unacceptable to me. sorry. But hey, i am sure we’ll find some articles during the offseason about him having a good offseason oetc…
Yep thats the plan….WAIT for something to happen…
As for those who want to give him three years to show thats a reasonable request if the two years previous seem to be a wash on improvement.
Say a bad first year can be excused by a good second year.
Or a steady (even if slow or minimal) improvement each year.
That hasn’t happened here at all!
And there is nothing that can happen in year three save a Playoff appearance that can change the picture here.
There are 16 games left and if they manage to play .500 ball they will wind up with 74 Wins this season which is 3 less than last year and 5 less than the year before!
Thats a decline not an improvement and even if they make the playoffs next year it can hardly be said he did anything worth keeping because the truth is all he had to do in the last two years was win 10 more games from when he took over and that could have happend two years ago if he just made a move to get a good player that would help them get that while he did all the other things he has been claiming to do in the meantime!
Giving a guy three years is the way to go when he starts.
But one he has had two bad years there is little to nothing he can do to in the third to warrant keeping him.
If he makes the playoffs they will keep him but the truth is it wn’t have anything to do with what he did and it will mean two wasted years we could have won something and made the playoffs if he just got off his butt sooner!
Here’s a question I have for many…
If the Mets won the World Series in 2006, and 07-10 happened exactly the same way and all the Madoff stuff happened and basically everything was exactly the same except they won it all in 06.
Would you be as opposed to this front office and team as you are right now?
Would you have this front office if they had gotten the job done in 2006-2010?
If the Mets had won it all in 2006 as you say, and then missed the post season the next two years by one solitary game, and then got hit with historic injuries in 2009-2010, your question becomes invalid because the old front office would have never been replaced by this one.
Winning percentages of 2005 .512, 2006 .599, 2007 .543, 2008 .549 and then the two injury years with a World Championship and two second place finishes in six seasons would not have gotten Minaya fired. They made a movie and book about another GM who did less than that.
So I don’t understand your question.
What if we change that question to mean the Wilpons themselves?
It’s a good question and I dont know the answer, but I do know that when a team is winning, there little to no concern about who the owner is. Most owners never get credit for winning seasons or losing seasons, they are just there to pay the bills. Those that can’t get go bust, those that can stick around for as long as they want regardless what the fans think. Everybody hated Steinbrenner too until all those championships started to roll in during the mid seventies.
Many of us have smelled the rat of the Wilpons since 1987 when they forced Kevin Mitchell out, followed by Lenny Dykstra and McDowell, letting Darryl go, trading Cone, etc.
From the minute they purchased a 50 percent share when the champagne was drying from the 1986 world series, they have imposed their stamp on this team.
The Piazza trade that almost didn’t happen until they were shamed into it, the winter of A-Rod, you name it- the Wilpons have been a disgrace well before recent times. I sure cared who my owner was when Jeff Wilpon was pushing to trade Scott Kazmir at the behest of Al Leiter, Al Goldis, and Rick Peterson amd their embarrassing offer to Vladimir Guerrero.
This ownership makes Jim Dolan look almost competent. And don’t forget that the worst is yet to come when Fred dies and his special son takes over the franchise completely.
I don’t think that’s necessarily true. 07 and 08 still happened, regardless of the 06 season. They were still two epic and embarrassing collapses. 09 and 10 still happened as well. On the surface two 2nd place finishes sounds nice and shiny but we both know that isn’t the story.
With the financial situation/madoff it’s conceivable that Minaya wouldn’t have been the best guy for the job under the circumstances.
I mean look at it like this… if the Yankees collapsed and missed the playoffs this year and then next year finished under .500, would Cashman still have a job despite winning it all in 09? I don’t think so.
2006 is why the plan changed. It’s why Omar’s blueprint was altered (by himself) because a young team went too far too early and we abandoned the idea of “we have 2 young future superstars to build around” and went to “we are 1 player away, no matter what they cost.” now we’re “1 closer away.” “1 corner outfielder away.”
My point is – is the frustration with this team based solely on 2011, and 2012? Or is it based on 1987-2012? Are we expecting this front office to atone for the sins of every past regime or just fix the current situation we find ourselves in?
We got a tiny, tiny taste of success and our expectations went over the moon and now we’re paying for our own “1 player away mindset” as well as the front office’s actions of responding to pressure from a fan base.
I guess in my ramble I’m just saying – I have said I will give them 2013 to prove the Sandy/Francesa interview wasn’t a farse and if it proves to be then frankly there is a much larger problem than we all talk about because if nothing happens and no attempts to improve are made – then the articles about Sandy are just a cover up for the fact our owners really do not belong here anymore.
Braves had two epic collapses in 2010 and 2011 did they go and have a selloff and start the long build from within we did?
The Braves had an epic collapse in 2010 when they won the wildcard?
Yep they lost wholesale at the end and let the Phillies take the division from them!
Phillies were behind US in the standingsonJuly15th 2010!
Won the division by 6 games over the Braves!
They won the WC by one game!
Because they had a horrible second half!
True on Omar changing his plan from a build and win to a must win now…he was a victim of early success, high expectations and injuries.
I really thought the 09 was the year Omar should have taken a step back to rebuild, but it didn’t happen.
the finishes in 06-09 all had to do with injuries…(anyone think the the 06 NLCS would have been diferant if we had a healthy Pedro, DL’uque, Sanchez, Floyd and see still had Nady and no Mota?) what we see today is a a result of not rebuilding, but cost cutting.
So no, the previous years do not effect how I feel about Sandy and how this FO is running the show. I’m frustrated because of the lack of direction and the lack of trying and the wait for two years and we’ll be OK because we’ll draft well attitude. Sandy took over a bad situation, that’s true, but he hasn’t done anything to fix it, he’s just gotten it to the point that they are losing more games and less money.
I don’t understand the point of the question. what does winning in 06 have to do with the direction of the FO today?
My dislike for the FO has grown slowly over the years…I see no direction other than cut payroll. And all the dysfunction that plagued Omars tenure still hasn’t been fixed.
I don’t hate Alderson…he’s doing his job…which was given to him from MLB and Bud…get the Mets back in the black at all cost. It’s simple…
Yes I would…
because the problem is they are working under the assumption that you can not build from within while still competing and they traded away many of the players that would have won it for us and got pretty much nothing back for any of them save Wheeler!
As Joe said the on;y reason Minaya got fired was because he was expected to win and didn’t!
Then Injuries hurt them just as it hurt the Phillies this year except they lost thier guys in the first half while we lost them for the second half with no way to compensate!
This team was competing last year in July without our Ace on the mound!
Would you have traded Beltran and K-Rod and would we have given up with the wins a real Ace might have brougt to the table?
We all say we need OF well WHY do we need it?
We went from needing just one to replace Bay to needing three to replace the two guys we traded away!
When your close you don’t tear down you build up!
Sure they were hard pressed for money but if they had managed to have an Ace last year (or this year aside from Dickey) we would have been playing for a playoff BOTH those years and attendance would have risen to the point where we could afford to pay that guy plus Wright, Reyes, Beltran, and K-Rod with money to spare to spend on someone else!
You don’t create a winner by making the team worse a trading or letting go all your best players!
Wanna Bet the Cards are kicking themselves in the butt for not paying Pujols right now?
People here just wanted CHANGE for the sake of it and it was not the way to go IMO!
CAHNGE isn’t alway change for the better!
Anyone who bought into Obama’s message in the last election sees that!
What, under this FO, has been improved in terms of draft signees, improvement of minor league prospects and continued improvement of Major League squad?
There is no one in minors that projects, at least for 2 years, as a RH power bat which this team is lacking and was counting on the aging Bay to provide?
I know that Flores might be that player but what position will he play?
Mejia seems to have lost any sense of control on his pitches so is he a reliever or starter?
Why were there un-signed draft picks from this years draft?
Why are we being out scouted, out spent on draft picks, not looking at all for gems in places that many have found diamonds?
Wheeler and Harvey might eventually pitch together in 2013 along with Niese, whom I strongly suggest Mets need to keep because of how hard it is to find a young LH pitcher with Niese’s qualities, but Haven has not panned out because of injuries, Spin still swings to hard (the kid in DC swings hard but it is a controlled one, not wild like Spin) and if he is to be part of 2B plans then he needs to change, Tejada plays good defense but still has questions about his offense.
If team can’t spend money then trading your best talent for needs will still leave you with holes so, for example trading Ike, whom do you play at 1B, preferably a LH cause they are better suited for 1B then who makes up the LH power?
There has been little improvement, other than RA, since SA came in plus what has this team done better for last 2 years that can be considered improvement?
I have trust issues with this FO and ownership so until they keep their word on anything they say, why should I believe what is said?
I thought I knew what Sandy was doing one year ago. Today, after watching the unsigned draft picks (not to mention what I think was a terrible draft for the Mets) and the poor free agent signings, I have no idea what Sanford Alderson is doing. I haven’t a clue to what his plan is.
Matt, what plan???? Plan is to get paid for slashing payroll and go back to vacationing… That’s his plan.
Here’s my question with the draft. Do we know the impact on next year’s draft for this year’s unsigned picks and what is the impact of having one less minor league team on not signing a bunch of our late rounders?
if they don’t sign their 1st or 2nd rounder, they get that pick +1 next year.
If they don’t sign a 3rd rounder they get a supplemental pick between round 3/4
If a team fails to sign a player with one of these compensated picks, there is no compensation the following year.
Then each team gets a pool of $ they are allowed to use for signing players.
If a team goes over it by 5 percent or less, it must pay a “luxury tax” of 75% on the amount over the threshold.
If they go over 5 to 10 percent over must pay a 100% tax on the excess, and will lose their next first-round pick.
A team that goes 15 percent over can lose its next two first-round picks, in addition to the “luxury tax”
Plus they had the lottery for extra comp picks http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120718&content_id=35145866&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb
Oh I got the jargon but thanks. I am saying what impact all that jargon will have?
I still don’t think the unsigned picks are that big of a deal. I think the number “twenty picks unsigned” is scarier than the truth. It’s not about signing all of your picks, it’s mainly the top 25 or so. There’s what 40, 50 draft picks, you won’t sign them all.
They didn’t signed what 8 out of their top 25? Last year unlimited budget Yankees let 6 out of their top 25 go unsigned. I didn’t hear panic attacks from Yankees fans.
In 2011, the Mets let 4 of their Top 25 go unsigned.
You can look at a team like Pittsburgh who values building through the draft – 6 of their top 25 were not signed and most of their 27-40 picks went unsigned.
I get that the Stanky contract is confusing, but its not the end of the world. And I feel like we’re using that 1 contract and lumping him into Vance Vizcaino and acting like the fact they didn’t sign Vizcaino is proof they are messing up.
Maybe they valued their younger guys in the system more than the guys they got in the late rounds? 14 picks from Round 25-40 went unsigned right? End of the world? No. They only let 4 go unsigned in similar rounds last year.
I just think it’s a dramatized number. “They let 20 picks go unsigned!” It sounds better than “They didn’t sign 14 of their final 16 picks.”
You gotta have a spot for these kids to occupy on a roster somewhere. Maybe they felt the late round kids just weren’t worth letting another kid go? It happens, all the time.
The Yankees picked at the bottom of every round and we picked in the top half….BIG difference!
Don’t they still need players? Aren’t they planning on picking at the bottom every year? The point is everybody lets players go unsigned. I noticed you didn’t mention the Pirates and their unsigned players. Its not ONLY money that factors is.
It’s who you got and how they fit into your development. If the Mets don’t have room in their lowest minors for players picked 25-40, then signing them is pointless.
The qurestion you seem to notbe asking (or avoiding) is….
Do they need them MORE than WE do?
Are they putting all thier eggs into the build with kids basket like we are?
If not then it’s not as important to them as it is to us!
“I still don’t think the unsigned picks are that big of a deal.”
To most teams it might not be but to a team who has decided to build from within it is HUGE!
How can you rebuild from within with only half the kids the other teams have to work with?
what if the next:
Piazza (61st round)
Pujols (13th Round)
Posada (24th Round)
Smoltz ( 22nd Round)
Oswalt (23rd Round)
Polanco (19th Round)
Bautista (20th Round)
Buehrle (38th Round)
Griffey Sr (29th Round)
Grace (24th Round)
Lofton (17th Round)
Saberhagen (19th Round)
Mattingly (19th Round)
Petitte ( 22nd Round)
Hernandez (42nd Round)
Hershiser (17th Round)
Canseco (15th Round)
Kent (20th Round)
Sandberg (20th Round)
Was in that bunch we passed on?
Will we hear about it the next time someone decides to write an “In the past 25 Years….” dissertation?
It’s not huge if they feel the talent they currently have in their lower minors is better than the talent in this year’s late round draft pool!
The Royals didn’t sign 7 of their final 10 picks. What are they not trying to build from within?
You can’t sign everybody. You have to evaluate whether pick 36 is worth a spot on a minor league roster or is somebody you already have worth keeping?
Is there an actual roster spot for Donovan Walton if you sign him? You can’t ignore that. You can’t just say “they didn’t sign 20 players.” and not add context.
Did they mess up with Stank? Probably. But not signing him doesn’t mean the 14 picks after Round 25 mean more than they would any normal year.
Being mad about Stank and being mad about 14 out of final 20 picks are 2 different stories. Lumping them together is merely done for dramatic effect
If they weren’t better then why did they pick them?
You see your damned either way you try to slice this!
Either the talent we have is good enough to make us better and can be traded to get what we want (Since everyone picked from the same sorry bunch and our guys are better!)
Or your point that we don’t have anyone worth having or trading for and we need to infuse a ton of talent that can replace it!
Logic dictates picking one idea or the other because they don’t mesh together at all!
Not signing 7 players is a far cry from not signing 20 even you can’t believe they are similar!
And maybe since they have been losing for far longer than we have they might actually HAVE better players already in thier system that we do!
Yet they still found room for 13 more than we did!
Because you make selections during the draft. If you sign every player over 2 years, where are you putting those 80 or 90 players?
Tell me. Show me a team that signed all 90 picks over the last 2 years. Show me a team that chose to not pick from round 25-40 or 50. You can’t.
Everybody makes their picks and nobody signs all of their players year after year. It depends on the shape of their roster. You have to have room for a player to sign him.
In 2011 the Mets signed 72% of their draft picks. That’s 36 players who needed a roster spot somewhere.
In 2012, they signed less. Probably not ALL because of roster space but absolutely some. Every team does it. Every single one.
Every draft pool is different. You can often see trends to. A year prior some teams sign most of their late picks, then the next year they don’t. This could be because they have scouts determining the value of the draft pool ahead of time. IE this 36th rounder is better than a 36th rounder we can get next year so we need to sign him
If you stop trying to make everything a personal feud you’d understand this is normal.
If you want to say its about “building from within” then lets name the teams who are trying to do that. TB, KC, BAL, SEA, SD, PIT I think is a fair standard no?
Round 26-40 we’ll just say to keep it even from year to year
Mets 2011: 4 unsigned, Mets 2012: 13 unsigned
TB 2011: 5 unsigned, TB 2012: 3 unsigned
KC 2011: 9 unsigned, KC 2012: 8 unsigned.
BAL 2011: 10 unsigned, BAL 2012: 4 unsigned
SEA 2011: 4 unsigned, SEA 2012: 8 unsigned
SD 2011: 8 unsigned, SD 2012: 3 unsigned
PIT 2011: 8 unsigned, PIT 2012: 14 unsigned
You see how most teams it’s 1 year or the other? Besides Tampa Bay everybody else signed their later picks much more than the year previous or the following year.
Yet they all made their picks right? You have a window of opportunity to decide if you should sign these kids after you pick them. That’s why you draft them, and then you figure out where you can put them on your minor league rosters.
If you don’t have space, guess what happens?
Hi Jessep,
“If you sign every player over 2 years, where are you putting those 80 or 90 players?”
In the Port St. Lucie rookie team if they still had it.
But they don’t. You can’t be ticked off about the lack of signing 14 out of the final 16 picks and then concede they had nowhere to put them.
You can’t have it both ways. You need roster spots. They need to play. If you don’t have space, you don’t sign them.
Nimmo was drafted over a year ago and didn’t take up a roster spot until late may!
Put them where he was!
You put them in the instrctional league….
See who has some chance at being coached to be good and who doesn’t.
See who might show you something you didn’t see from them before the draft once you have hands on information as opposed to 3rd party scouts who watch an entire team not work with just the guy he saw.
And THEN decide who really is not worth keeping and dumping them one the next draft comes and replaces them!
But you don’t just not sign them sight unseen or based on information that was good enough to take not good enough to sign!
Even if they are not pieces for your team you might still get something for them with some other team later on!
and again as I explain below – you have other players going to the instructional league. There isn’t room for everybody. You’re not gonna send 14 players you don’t really like to the instructional league over 14 players currently in your organization or draft picks you like.
You can’t sign everybody. Just stop and recognize everybody does this. Everybody.
No one else seems to have this problem do they
Whats the roster limitation on the insrtructional league pray tell?
Is there any?
You’re telling me that other teams just sign all of their picks and let them sit around until mid September’s instructional league?
Who does that? Nobody. I’d bet 95% of the players who are instructional league players have played games with a minor league team and I’d bet if 5% didn’t that many of them were young IFA’s not late round draft picks.
What about the other players you need to go to instruct league? How many do you wanna send there 100? It’s just like a classroom… a class of 30 gets more teaching than a class of 60 would right? Isn’t that why they are there?
I’m telling you that they don’t seem to be forced into passing on half thier picks do they?
Well do they?
How many times in 10 years has someone passed on half a draft?
Then tell me how all the teams that never have managed to find the room!
If there are kids from last year’s draft STILL in the instructional league then THOSE are the guys you should get rid of not the guys you haven’t tried before they even had a chance to fail!
Hi Jessep,
One other thought. Those who picked later in the draft than we did signed more selections. If it was a case of the talent thinning out as the number of remaining players dwindled, why would those other clubs further back in the selection process sign more of their lower twenty picks? A month or so ago I listed about eight or nine teams with better records than we had in 2011 selecting more from their bottom half.
But Joey – you like who you like.
You’re only looking at the 2012 talent. What about the 2011? The Mets clearly signed more 2011 picks than most right? So maybe they liked the talent in that pool over this one? Maybe their scouts did as well?
Why does almost every team who focuses on the draft seem to sign late picks 1 year and then not the other?
You want to sign all late picks and send them to the fall instructional league? So they sit around for a few more months? Those players on Fall instructional rosters don’t sit around and get 0 playing time.
For example, Tampa Bay does a great job http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/rays/content/instructional-league-info
Those aren’t kids that have sat around since June. Almost all played in the minors in some form.
You’re not gonna just sign 14 late draft picks and tell them “we’ll see ya in september”
Hi Jessep,
You make very valid points and I will not deny that if this was any other ball club with any other front office, I would tend to agree with you.
It’s just that I have lost complete faith and trust in the motives behind all this organization’s moves. I will not deny this is what is influencing my judgement and why in this issue I will not give them the benefit of the doubt.
The Metsie data mining operation is in full swing. If only he knew which of the unsigned players would mean something to our team in a few years, he’d have a point to make. Right now he has little evidence. I’ll call it Metsie’s Speculation or Metsie’s Intrigue.
Ahh it’s Des once again here to trash a poster and then cry innocence when he responds with an insult back I see!
Yes Des I am acting with no basis of fact just as you guys are acting with no basis in fact when you trash the kids we have in the Minors!
Do you want to take this to the end where we insult the hell out of each other now that you once again opened the door?
I notice you don;t have ANY opinion!
Just because your a idiot with no thought doesn’t mean the rest of us are anything like you!
I suggest if you have something to say on why we should not have signed them then say it and leave the Poster criticism where it belongs UP your ass instead of talking from it!
Or is it just that it bothers you that I bring facts to the table that you little brained Apologists can’t contend with and you think I’m just bullying you because the fight is unfair?
I still don’t think the unsigned picks are that big of a deal.
Of course you don’t, most idiots would agree with you.
Met Maniac: Such a well thought out response. Thank you.
I’ve lived through a lot of losing seasons with the Mets but what gets me most upset about this regime is that they don’t even seem to be trying to improve the team.If you are going to rely on Jason Bay making a comeback or Josh Thole duplicating his best month over a full season to get this team into contention, then let’s face it, you don’t need a general manager, much less 3. For most of the first half of this season, the team was doing very well with the obvious exception of the bullpen. Did the Mets pick up even one relief pitcher from outside the organization ? It all began to fall apart before the trade deadline, but did the Mets make the obvious move and trade free-agent-to-be Scott Hairston for anyone who could help either now or later ? This team is not just bad, it’s boring. I’ll admit if I were 25 years old instead of 65, I might be patient enough to hope that Brandon Nimmo turns out to be Mickey Mantle and Zach Wheeler becomes the next Tom Seaver and the Mets contend in 2016 with a completely homegrown team, but really what are the odds of that ?
Great point Barry. Isn’t the wisdom that comes with age and experience such a wonderful gift? You wont find much of that with most of the toddlers who comment here. Glad to see someone new to the fold here that has passed puberty and can articulate the reality of the situation exactly as it appears to be.
Why does age have anything to do with it? A great author that I share with Joe is only 14 years old and does an incredible job and seems rational is a breath of fresh air. Did you not have opinions on the Mets when you were younger as well? Were those also full of crap like you say the kids are today? I am 36 so don’t include me in this discussion I am just saying those kids have every right to their opinion and they are just as valid as long as they are rational and well thought out. Same qualifications for old as well.
One can have a vision for the future and build from within the minor league system but that doesn’t mean breaking up the parent club to do it. If we can look forward to the future with the aforementioned minor leaguers, why could we not also enjoy 2011 and 2012 with those who were already on the club?
Was there really a need to dismantle the team immediately instead of doing it slowly over a few years? And if not, then why did we need to create holes and replace them with “inexpensive” players as Sandy now puts it? Because they were temporary stop gaps during a transition from one roster to another? If that is the case, then I think many of us would have been quite happy with having retained those we had in lieu of those we got.
And pne who decides that in terms of what is best for the team is to rid one’s self of what they have and start all over certainly would not make cuts in the minor league system which included not signing half of their draft picks – only Pittsburgh signed less than we did this year.
The only explanation is that the Wilpons not only had no money to further invest into the team but needed to cut back operations tremendously just to keep it afloat financially and retain ownership. Otherwise, the present and the future would have been handled much differently.
“Was there really a need to dismantle the team immediately instead of doing it slowly over a few years”
Yes there was. They were a less than mediocre team that failed to play 500 ball and had one of the largest payrolls in the sport with that sub 500 team.
When you have a 140 plus million dollar payroll and you’re not winning you take a big hit at the ticket gate and can’t sustain that payroll when you don’t have the revenues to cover it. They were lost a combined 120 million dollars between 2010 and 2011. There is no way they were going to continue losing money like that with a team that couldn’t play 500 ball. That’s why they deconstructed the team the last 2 years and that’s why you got bottom of the barrel signings. Plus they still have 50 million dollars tied into 2 dead weight players.
What he should’ve done is clean house when he walked in, instead of losing Reyes to free agency, he should’ve traded him. He could’ve traded Pagan off a good 2010 instead of selling low off a miserable 2011. He could’ve even traded Wright coming off a pretty good 2010. We’d still be stuck with Johan and Bay but we could’ve gotten a better return for Pagan and something for Wright and Reyes. The dismantling should’ve started after 2009 at the earliest instead of digging a deeper hole. You can’t keep high salaried players when you’re losing money and not winning.
““Was there really a need to dismantle the team immediately instead of doing it slowly over a few years”
“Yes there was. They were a less than mediocre team that failed to play 500 ball and had one of the largest payrolls in the sport with that sub 500 team.”
HI Fonzie,
Last night’s victory breathes another 24 hours of life into the Philadelphia Phillies’ mostly hopeless, totally unforeseen playoff chase. The Phillies commenced charging toward the bonus Wild Card slot far too late and from too far back for their ongoing lunge to be taken terribly seriously,
The Phillies are only four games out in the loss column and just one game over .500.
What was wrong with giving us a chance to do the same these past two seasons?
Same with last season?
We have Torres, Rameriez, Francisco and Wheeler instead of the possibility of still having Reyes (if talks began before the 2011 season), Beltran (who said right up to the trade that he wanted to stay a Met), Pagan (traded for what?) and KRod (for no matter what you say, he had one bad stretch of three consecutive appearances giveing up nine earned runs in 1.2 innings and has since allowed 7 earned runs in his last 20 for a 3.15 ERA which includes just one blown save and eight holds during that same stretch).
The Phillies probably won’t make it but the point is their GM didn’t add talent. They subtracted 2 3rds of their starting OF and their number 4 starter. Why didn’t they lose the spirit you claim the Mets lost because of the same reason. Throwing in the towel. They fought with what they had even after their GM waved the white flag. Same thing with Milwaukee. They gave away their ace and fought with what they had. It’s talent.
Again if we still had Reyes, Beltran, Pagan and K-Rod you’re now adding about 45 million dollars to the payroll and at best we have a 500 club. I can’t blame an owner or a GM that dismantles a mediocre 140-145 million dollar team. Maybe the Yankees or the new owners in LA could withstand those losses but the Wilpons obviously can’t.
I’m guessing you’re forgetting the 2010 2nd half collapse when we had all those guys in the lineup and couldn’t score any runs either. It got so bad Jerry Manuel called the teams offense pathetic. Saying they win that game last night of we have those guys is a hypothetical that no one can answer. Who knows if either of those guys takes an O-Fer. Beltran has had a bad 2nd half. Bad back and bad knees. He’s hitting 200 since the allstar break.
Hi Fonzie,
I thought the Wilpons took a big hit from Madoff, not the Mets roster payroll, considering all the combined revenue from SNY. $40 million breaks this team, financially? If that’s all it was, there would have been no need to cut the non-roster operating budget by ten percent, either.
The high payroll was not the cullprit.
And it seems those players sent off in 2011 did well with their other clubs and I think Harvey would have won that game last night had there been Beltran, Pagan and Reyes in the lineup. In fact, since scoring has been their problem the last month and a half with the pitching staff holding it’s own, it is not unreasonable to say they would have won a lot more games this year and who knows how many more with Wright being unable to be pitched around.
An another thing. Just because a player or 2 or 3 have good years for another team it doesn’t mean they would put up thise exact same numbers here. NY is a much tougher place to play than any other City and the ballparks are all different. Beltrans home and road numbers are drastically different. St Louis is a hitter friendly park. How many big htters have come here in stunk up the joint after great years the previous year with another team. George Foster ring a bell? Bobby Bonilla. Beltrans first year here. Robby Alomar hits 330 for Cleveland and hits 267 for us the following year. Mo Vaughn. Theeee Jason Bay. Ramirez and Francisco having career worst seasons here. We could turn Babe Ruth into a 250 hitter. lol
Hi Fonzie,
A team in a pennant race will generate way more revenue than the expense of that payroll so it’s not a matter of payroll. And it takes 25 players to blow a pennant, not two (Reyes and Wright). Beltran did not fail the team in 2008 down the stretch.
You really believe Reyes, Beltran, Pagan would not be having these seasons if with the Mets? That David Wright would still be pitched around? I won’t even mention KRod since you point out a stretch of three games in which he was horrible plus a stretch of four or so in late April instead of the whole season though I believe you overlook some bad stretches this in your assessments of Francisco and Rauch (if I am wrong on this, I apologize).
Could it just be it that Sandy gambled and simply guessed wrong? He’s allowed to, you know. In any event, having those players on the club now would not have been a stumbling block for the future and with Philly in the race just two games above .500 (no matter what the reasons) the Mets could have been the same with better hitting. A rough check shows their pitchers allowed four runs or less in 30 games since around the end of July and lost a majority of them. So with that type of pitching, any decent type of run production and they would still be in the hunt and drawing crowds instead of giving tickets away.