29
2012
Mets Front Office Turned The Tables On The Players And The Fans
An article by 
Would You Buy A Used Car From This Man?
I was reading the excellent post by Joe D that was inspired by a statement from Metsie entitled, “Are The Players Turning The Tables On The Mets Front Office?” But I felt one key factor was missing from the summations made in the piece and on the comment thread that ensued.
One chapter in Mets recent history that needs to be pointed out again, was the deep, wide-stretching amount of damage Sandy did when he opened up his big and insensitive mouth this year at mid-season. That was when he decided to shirk his own responsibility for the state of this team and throw his players under the bus.
He thought we Mets fans were so stupid that all he had to do was suggest it, and as though he were using Jedi-Mind-Tricks, we fans would actually blame the players for the state of the team as they started to crumble and not Alderson himself. And this coming on the heels of the players over-achieving for most of the first half of the season.
That was when Mr. Alderson lost me. And he didn’t lose just me either. He also lost most if not all of his players and coaches, and a great many fans. If you were David Wright, would you want to play for owners like these, and a GM that doesn’t care or even respect his players?
If you were R.A. Dickey and you saw the way they handled the Jose Reyes contract situation. The way they have done nothing to improve the major league team, and I mean nothing. The way they disrespect their own players. The way they are committed to losing rather than winning. Would you want to sign a four year commitment to play for this team? And possibly without David Wright as part of it any longer?
These guys are competitive, pro-athletes, who got to where they are in life by competing and winning. They don’t want to play for a team in turmoil, a team with no direction, no plan, no clear path or understanding.
Alderson is a corporate extension of the owners’ malaise, and ineptitude. He is their reflection. Their mirror image. Two suits staring at one another, Wilpon and Alderson. Alderson and Wilpon. Okay I give up which is which? Because I can’t tell them apart anymore.
The fact is ownership doesn’t give a damn if the team wins or loses, and the GM they hired doesn’t care either.
About the Author: Peter Shapiro
The first time I went to Shea was not for a Mets game, it was for the Beatles concert there in August of '66. My first Met game was '67, a guy named Salty Parker was the interim-manager then. My first pennant race was 1969. As a 12 year-old that summer and fall, I managed to get to the park for 3 games. The first was the beginning of the Miracle which actually started on Tuesday July 8, 1969 with a day game against the Cubs. I was there a lot in '73. I saw games 3 & 5 of the 1973 NL Playoffs against the "Big Red Machine", from the upper deck behind home plate. It was from there that I witnessed the fight between Bud Harrelson and Pete Rose, and the mayhem that ensued. And that sweet victory in game 5! I saw a couple of WS games at Shea that year against that legendary Oakland A's club. I was there in 1985 for every single game Dr. K pitched including his two 16 strikeout performances, and the day he one-hit the Cubs on an infield single and the Mets won 1-0. I loved being a Met fan in those days. Hopefully we are once again preparing to emerge from the darkness.
211 Comments + Add Comment
NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 25 | 18 | .581 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 21 | .523 | 2.5 |
| Phillies | 21 | 23 | .477 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 17 | 24 | .415 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 12 | 32 | .273 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/19/2013
Recent Comments
- Donal: on Mets vs Cubs: Davis Not In Lineup As Gee Looks For A Win In Rubber Match: "30 extra OB of which barely 23%...
- Sach: on Scott Rice Leads The Majors In Appearances: Rice is a nice feel good story....
- Donal: on Keep Daniel Murphy In The Leadoff Spot: You don't need to walk a lot....
- Jimmy Pernil: on MetsMinors.net Is Here!: Awesome accomplishment. Minor league coverage was why...
- Metsie: on Mets vs Cubs: Davis Not In Lineup As Gee Looks For A Win In Rubber Match: Add two more runs...What did you accomplish...
MMO Mets Chat
Need Tickets To The Mets Game?
Check Out These Great MLB Links!
Photographs From Gordon Donovan
5363 Fans Follow Us On Twitter!
1269 Fans Like Us On Facebook!
2341 Fans Read Our Feed!
1702 Fans Subscribe via Daily Email!
Patience is a virtue. But the quiet or not so quiet desparation of Met fans. The Mets might some day win the whole damn thing . But in our lifetime?
As a former Marine myself, Sandy Alderson disappoints me probably more than past GM’s because of how easy lying comes to him.
Sure there are those who think he has a plan, but it’s not his plan it’s Wilpon’s plan. Anything good that Alderson did do on his watch, was a residual effect of carrying out Wilpon’s orders and Wilpon’s vision.
Getting Wheeler was not a plan, it was a residual effect of getting rid of the team’s best position player at the time.
Getting Herrera was the same residual effect of getting rid of the top closer in the bullpen who was third in the league in saves at the time.
That’s not a roadmap to winning. It was just his plan to keep the Wilpons entrenched as owners.
Losing Reyes was always a part of the plan and never a top priority.
Unfortunately losing Wright and Dickey will suffer the same fate and each of them already know it.
As the saying Semper Fi says, I will remain steadfast to the name on the front of the team’s jerseys. I will remain faithful to the Mets and the players.
But it’s too bad we are living in these terrible times when Wilpon and Alderson are working together to purge the team of their best players and do so unchallenged by the fans.
We’ve already lost the best centerfielder and shortstop in franchise history, and we are about to lose the best third baseman and one of the best pitchers we ever had as well.
The only thing being rebuilt is the financial stranglehold the Wilpons have on this team. Alderson is their puppet and just the getaway driver. The proof of that was when we didn’t sign one of our two second round picks. We had two because we lost Reyes. We also failed to sign 21 draft picks in total, the most in the major leagues.
Vision? What vision?
Hi J.T.,
Great assessment. Even though I too am insulted at the lawyer double-talk and the actual flat-out lies made to the public by Sandy, I also understand that comes with job he decided to take so that it why, like many others do, I try to point out the contradiction not only between his statements but also with his actions.
I’ve been having a friendly discussion with some friends who disagree with me on this. They do understand baseball and the ups and downs a franchise can go through and have valid thoughts on how those problems should be tackled but I’ve been contesting that in their allegiance to their principles they are not allowing themselves to see the reality of Sandy Alderson and his role in Oakland and San Diego and that he is not a baseball man. This comes in part from the media tying him into Bill James and Money Ball and being the architect of those Oakland clubs – which he was not – and the well-though out spin campaign of the Mets public relations office to cover up the situation.
As Petey points out, more and more fans who were originally fans of Sandy and thought that he was “the man” – perhaps due to not recognizing his previous roles with other clubs and/or their belief in saber metrics and money ball – are beginning to understand that the “vision” was a combination of a carefully orchestrated public relations campaign and Sandy’s limited understanding of how a ball club is run outside the business realm.
After two years and all the information we now have about the Wilpon’s financial plight the spin can no longer cover up the financial reality.
This is only a guess on my part but I wonder if the myth about Sandy Alderson was fostered a lot by fans of sabermetrics who found in Sandy a false prophet, not recognizing the simplifications attributed to him by the media as the “grandfather of sabermetrics”.
“Sandy Alderson and his role in Oakland and San Diego and that he is not a baseball man. This comes in part from the media tying him into Bill James and Money Ball and being the architect of those Oakland clubs – which he was not”
Wrong! He was the architect of those Oakland clubs which everybody except you and your sidekick knows. The owner of the team even acknowledges it. I have given you over 6 months to come up with a tiny shred of evidence to back your BS claim and you have failed royally because there is no evidence to back you up. There’s plenty of evidence that proves you wrong and like a child you kick and scream and refuse to acknowledge it. Unfortunately for you history can not be re-written. The more you repeat it the less informed you look. Your act can’t get any older.
Great post Petey. RA has been courageous for speaking up as he has done. David needs to decide where he should play to enhance his opportunity to enshrine in the HOF. This FO needs to come to grips quickly and make genuine long term offers to both of these players. Without that, we fans will be doomed to a cellar dweller for many more years than we would like to consider.
I agree with your assessment of SA. Gary Cohen essentially called him out for his uninformed statement in the booth a few games ago when SA claimed that the main indicator of the dismal performance in the second half of the season was the decrease in pitches per at bats after the All Star game. During the subsequent broadcast, Gary pointed out that the falloff in pitches per at bat was miniscule and only amounted to 1 less pitch per 20 at bats or a rate decrease of .05 pitches per at bat. SA has shown us how uniformed he is by making an irrelevant statement and clinging to the mantra of pitches per at bat. There just is no way that is the major factor affecting the team’s second half performance. In fact, that mantra could very well be counter-productive, as Gary Cohen has pointed out. By not swinging early, in the count, the word quickly got around the league that the Mets would not swing. Consequently, pitchers could concentrate on getting early strikes in the count, while the Mets simply kept their bats on their shoulders. Taking this to a logical conclusion, it is more likely that the mantra of striving for pitches per at bat actually was a major factor in the second half demise. With pitchers getting quick strikes, the Mets hitters faced unfavorable counts and the offense suffered. An argument could be made that it was the coaching philosophy as espoused by the FO that is directly responsible for the poor performance.
In my book, SA has demonstrated how clueless he truly is at setting direction for a ML ballclub. There will be no success for this team as long as that pompous egomaniac runs the FO. As fans we are doomed with this ownership and management team.
“SA has shown us how uniformed he is by making an irrelevant statement and clinging to the mantra of pitches per at bat.”
#Boom
Good god, do you honestly believe this? Do you honestly believe that Alderson WANTS to lose? Don’t be absurd. He might have to operate under the limitations provided by the Wilpon’s, and even without those limitations he might not run the team in the precise way that you want him to, but do you honestly believe that he’s not doing what he believes will ultimately make this team good again? Honestly, it’s idiotic to say that.
And here’s the part where I let all the idiots getting ready to attack me know that I am NOT, in particular, an Alderson supporter. I’m just a rational person who believes in letting him finish the job he’s started before judging him.
Yeah eveyone but you is an idiot!
Sandy is a GENIUS right?
Ah, Metsie. Once again, you show your astounding lack of comprehension skills when you choose to blatantly ignore the part where I specify that I am not particularly fond of Alderson.
Comment Deleted for violating our site’s comment guidelines.
Getting a little angry, are we? Well, it’s only worth getting angry about if it’s true.
Yep angry you called one of the best Writers on the site an idiot!
I did not call him an idiot (I’ve enjoyed his work on this site before), just said that the main idea of this article is idiotic, because it is.
No idiotc is thinking a GM who has made the team worse in two years needs more time!
Thats the ranting of an idiot!
Or a Moneyballer!
Which are you?
When Alderson took over as GM, my main hope was not that he’d make us competitive within two years. Of course, that would have been nice. But I wanted to see him ultimately build a team that would be competitive year after year. He hasn’t failed at that yet. But that’s not really the point that I was trying to make; my point was that the idea that he WANTS to lose is moronic. It’s one thing to disagree with his moves (I’ve certainly disagreed with some of them) or his philosophies, but there is no evidence whatsoever that he is not doing what he believes to be in the team’s best interests with what’s available to him.
BTW look at the responses here….
Seems like no one agrees with you better go back to where you came where they are all as Sandy brainwashed as you!
Oh goodness, you mean all of the scholars on this site disagree with me? Well, I guess I’d better change my tune, then.
Yes incluing the Owner of the site!
That’s nice. But are we not allowed to be on this site unless we want Alderson’s head on a stick? Are you aware that the views expressed on this site are not necessarily indicative of the views of the fan base as a whole?
No you not allowed to be on this site if you call anyone who doesn’t agree with you an idiot!
Especially when the owner would fall into your category of what is an idiot and what is not!
*sighs* Once again, I’m forced to repeat myself because you can’t read: I didn’t call him an idiot, I called the main idea of this article idiotic. There’s a difference. I DO wholeheartedly believe that you’re an idiot, but that’s less because you and I disagree and more because you just seem to hear exactly what you want to hear, which forces me to constantly say the same thing over and over again.
No Difference there SH….
And I don’t really care what you think of me because YOUR the doipe who thought Sandy was going to make us competitive in two years, Hasn’t and yet you STILL want to wait!
Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result IS INSANITY!
I’m an idiot for talking to someone who is INSANE thats all!
Seriously, this is legendary. You have to be messing with me. You have to. I don’t believe anybody could be this stupid, even on the internet. I NEVER said that I thought he’d make us competitive in two years. NEVER. This is the millionth time you’ve misinterpreted what I’ve said since we began arguing, both in this post and the other one. You’re either five or you’re a troll. Either way, I can honestly say I’ve never interacted with anybody on the internet as dumb as you. Well done.
And there IS a difference. People think, say, and do stupid things sometimes. I’ve done it. Pete’s done it. You’ve done it (more than most, I’d wager). Everybody does it.
Superhero he’s not messing with you. This is what he does to people all day long and then turns around and blames it on you. That’s why I named him Sir Twistalot cause he twists everything you say to try and make his point work which never does because he has the baseball knowledge of a steaming pile of Cow Dong.
Yep I’m messing with someone who has started off both his replies to two seperate people using the word idiotic!
Sandy does want to lose!
That way he can scarf up all those top draft picks!
So far the only point you have made since yesterday is you think anyone who says anything bad about Sandy is idiotic!
*sighs* Whatever, dude. It’s clear that no matter what I say, you’re gonna interpret it wildly differently. I’m done with this. You can have the last word if you want it. I imagine that sort of thing is important to you.
Superhero, pay him no mind. He’s the site’s single biggest troublemaker. Don’t let his badgering keep you from sharing your opinion.
Looks like Sir Twistalot found someone else’s words to twist. What’s wrong Metsie can’t find someone to start an argument with.
Yep got tired of beating you who thinks there are 16 Teams in the MLB,
Thinks people who boo Beltran make him puke then goes and boos Beltran himself!
Yep Need someone more challenging!
Sir Twistalot is in the house, twisting words as only he knows how. Show the post where I said there are only 16 teams in MLB. I said 16 NL teams now lets see how you can twist your way out of this lie Sir Twistalot. Show the post. What’s wrong? No proof?
No, Sandy does not WANT to lose…he just doesnt care if we win…or lose…big difference
I don’t think Sandy enjoys losing and does want to win as much as the rest of us.
That isn’t the problem. The problem is that:
1) he has other more pressing issues at stake since he is working for the Wilpons who want him to keep the company afloat while they pay off their debt and when any business has to go through such economic hardships either the quality of the product or the quantity of production has to suffer.
2) he is not a baseball man but being placed in a position of such authority, his limited knowledge based on his faith in statistical analysis is only going to hurt a team.
Statistical analysis has really hurt the Yankees, the Cardinals, the Redsox, the Rays, the Rangers, the Angels and the A’s to name a few.
Just Da Damaja — “No, Sandy does not WANT to lose…he just doesnt care if we win…or lose…big difference.”
Let’s keep the dialog realistic. Losing games means losing fannies in the seats. Sandy does care.
…please explain why Lucas Duda was playing RF while Jason Bay was on the DL for almost 3 months ….
for all the super sabermetric talk we heard in in 2010 when they got here…they have placed the slowest guy on the roster in one of the deepest RF’s in all of baseball….even with LF available…
Lucas Duda was ranked the worst RF in all of baseball
and even when he went to the minors…his first 4 games were playing RF….and now at 1B, we are talking about playing him over at Ike ( A SUPERIOR FIELDER AND HITTER )
That’s easy. He’s the best if a bad lot of outfielders in our system close enough to the big league level.
Also Fonzie the Mets did not want to move Duda to LF and have him worry about playing LF when he was only going to go back to RF once Bay came back then add that Duda was still trying to get acclimated to RF to begin with.
Now since being called back up from AAA though nothing has been said publicly it looks like the RF experiment may be over since he has only played one inning in RF since returning from AAA and has sparingly started at 1st base.
2013 might have a LF platoon of Bay & Duda if both are back for 2013 that is. But at least for now it looks like the Duda RF experiment may just be over. Though a lot can change between now and Opening day 2013.
Ummm….last August…the mets were already talking about playing Jason Bay in CF for 2012…( which is a serious disrespectful to Angel Pagan…who in a down year was better than Bay )
there is no reason to believe why they could not have Bay in RF this year and have Duda in LF…
again….the Sandy Alderson that relied on logic and statistical analysis is long gone…we are witnessing the Adventures in Babysitting Sandy Alderson…I said this from day 1…this guy did not want this job…Bud basically placed him here to help the Wilpons through their legal and financial issues…
Sandy on record said that Selig had to beg him to take this job…the fact that Sandy would reveal that to the press is a pretty damning statement on the relationship he has with the wilpons…I pretty much dont blame him for any of this b/c he’s not a GM right now…I would feel much more comfortable if Sandy replaced Jeff Wilpon and they had a good evaluator of talent who had great relations with agents and players throughout the league as GM ( basically someone like Omar Minaya )
When a team plays it’s heart out and overcomes the burdens that the Front Office put on it (i.e. that god awful Bullpen) and still wind up above .500 Win% you have to do something to reward them for that effort.
Something to show them that the effort they gave was worth giving still.
That NEVER happened…
Coming off a season where they had a shot (slim but present) the year before only to see thier GM trade away thier closer and best RBI guy and seal thier fate.
This time however the GM didn’t just lose the players he lost the coaches as well!
Last September they looked a lot like the team we saw in July and August of this year.
Terry called the team out and they started to pick up thier game.
He didn’t do that in July…Why Not?
Because even the coaches realized what would be the point?
It wasn’t until they cost Dickey a win in the Cy Young race that he found a cause worth fighting for.
This GM tried to put the team to blame despite thier good effort in the first half.
I find it dumb for the guys who did the work to be blamed for the problem over the guy who did nothing but ruined a bullpen and let yet another All Star walk away without even an offer!
I think as Mets fans we need to be reminded that it is the team we support, not the owners and not the GM. When we say Alderson should’ve improved the MLB team, no one is saying he should’ve automatically taken on more salary commitments or acquired players just to acquire players. The GMs job, as most of us have been saying, and as R.A. just mentioned is to both build the organization and consistently improve the MLB team.
The Met would’ve been in playoff contention if they were a .500 team coming into September. Go back, and read my last sentence again.
When we say he should’ve improved the team going forward, no one’s saying make impossible dreams come true. But adding a RH bat, or a Shoppach like catcher (who was already on the outs in Boston), and one or two fresh bullpen arms could’ve rendered the Mets a .500 team, and thus in playoff contention. And none of these moves would’ve required losing all your long-term assets.
I agree Hank,
While I won’t say no one suggested he go take on a a ton of Salary, The Majority of us are quite happy with finding cheap talent with one caveat…
It actually IS Talent!
I don’t care how MUCH he spends and if folks believe there is cheap value out there fine bring it on in.
The issue seems to be there is a cutoff line on just how cheap you can go before the Talent is no longer there.
We have gone so cheap there is no talent at that price. We could have made a trade of some of those kids many here don’t think much of to get that BP help!
We didn’t do that and did nothing. Well if the Boss does nothing why should anyone else do anything.
Amen, good job.
His job is almost finished Superhero.
After 2013 and the All Star Game revenue, the Mets will have turned at least a dollar profit and he his job for Fred and Jeff will be finished. Hopefully his replacement will come in whose objective will be building a winner and not keeping the Wilpons in power.
And while you say good job to Alderson for saving the Wilpons from bankruptcy, I say he and all those who supported that plan should rot in hell.
Read a comment on Metsblog the other day that said if Minaya was so good why hasn’t he gotten a call to be a GM in last 2 years. I thought it was of because by the same token until the Mets came along why wasn’t Alderson offered a GM job from 1998 until 2011 when Bud Selig sent him to Flushing? That was a 13 year period that nobody wanted him for GM. Enter Wilpon.
LOL Hodges too true…
BTW Padres hired Omar as a SVP to get out from under the mess Sandy left them!
Yes, I know. Looks like the Padres will improve on last years last place finish and 71 wins. Looks like they will have more wins than the Mets as well and will finish higher in the standings than last year.
Hi Hodges,
I do take pride in the fact that I was the one who pointed that out to Joe D. and that he said that was an excellent question he had not thought of. Yes, I love to gloat as much as the next guy!
Joking aside, I have not come across any interview with Sandy speaking about being approached by other clubs during his career. In fact, as we know, he admits being content with his work in the Dominican Republic and not even being interested in this job only to be urged on by Bud Selig to do so. He said otherwise he would still be learning his Spanish.
‘In fact, as we know, he admits being content with his work in the Dominican Republic and not even being interested in this job only to be urged on by Bud Selig to do so.’
You have to wonder what would have went down if Selig had retired when he first announced he was going to and wasn’t around to throw the Wilpons a life line. I still don’t know how he talked SA into taking this GM job. I can’t imagine at his age why he’d want to leave what was probably a pretty good gig at MLB to come here to the mess the Wilpon’s Mets found themselves in after the Madoff arrest.
If not for Selig you have to wonder just who the GM would have been once Omar’s contract was done. I’m doubting he would be back but I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t be SA either.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/padres/2005-08-23-alderson-cover_x.htm
According to this article Sandy was persued from the day he left Oakland.
“He was hotly pursued to return to the club level almost from the day he arrived in Manhattan. Alderson entertained “several opportunities” but pursued none, mostly because of the five-year commitment he made to work in New York”
Club level = any exec position withing a particular organization…
in that event, on a “club level”, Omar Minaya was pursued damn near the very second Sandy Alderson took over as Met GM…
Omar was pursued by Toronto…San Diego, Arizona, Cleveland, the Angels….and Sandy Alderson himself said he wanted to keep Omar in-house…
Cleveland –
“Omar is one of my best friends in baseball,” said [Mark] Shapiro. “He’s also friends with Chris [Antonetti] and Manny [Acta].
Arizona
Arizona Diamondbacks General Manager Kevin Towers told mlb.com in a text message that he and Minaya have talked about a possible job, which was first reported by The Wall Street Journal.
Toronto –
Minaya almost wound up working for the Jays. Minaya explained that had assistant GM Tony LaCava taken the Baltimore Orioles job, Minaya would have joined the Jays
there was a tidbit on ESPN that revealed in 2011, a handful of GM’s were calling Minaya and asking for advice on making trades near the trade deadline..
another funny and hilarious tidbit i came across…
July 2009 –
“Right now we do not envision [being a seller],” Minaya said. “If we’re 6 ½ [back] in the wild card with a couple of teams in front of us, we are still kind of trying to find out how we can improve this team, if we can improve it through trades.”
This sounds eerily like Sandy Alderson in 2011 + 2012…
basically….keep the fans interested…being a “seller” essentially will scare fans away from buying tickets next week…even if it means LONG TERM SUCCESS…
Most of the really intelligent critical commentary is banned from that website now. You still have folks complaining that Omar was trying to create a Latin Dream Team.
Pete, i’ve read your posts before and love your minor league reporting. This to me, is your best piece i’ve seen written.
Not because you critique SA and ownership, but because you spoke with eloquence about the plight of the players. Our Ballclub’s being run like a Corporate entity by an empty suit who reflects only the desire to please the greedy…
Mike Lloyd — I’ve enjoyed your writing but I have a different take than you. More often than not, greed is in the mind of the commenter. Enlightened self interest is not a crime. Sandy is entitled to his own self interest which I think is mostly wise.
Most of us couldn’t fill the suit Sandy wears. It would be empty, especially if worn by those few red meat knuckle-draggers who whine the most here.
P.S.: I was not referring to you, Mike, as I agree with you on most subjects.
Hey Des, Thanks for the compliment. I’ve always respected your comments and thoughts as well….
When I say empty suit, I mean it in a different sense…It’s meant more as a slam at his disengenious, passionless, leadership…No empathy for the players or sympathy for the long suffering fan, No understanding of what these players were thinking as their season began to crumble, due to his inefficient allocation of available resorces last winter in rebuilding the bullpen….Just an emotionless corporate statue carrying out a bailout plan developed by SRG and BUD to save Fred and Saul… His moves and motivations at this juncture I do question.
I originally bought into SA’s leadership. I admit I preferred Josh Byrnes or Rick Hahn at the time, but only because of their youth and energy, as well as their positive demeanor…
We were all promised smart allocation of available resources. Do you honestly think some or most of his work last off-season and in June and July this season could be construed as quality leadership and solid baseball sense?
If you ask me, you and I could sit down with the scouting department, with some advanced statistical spreadsheets, and the field manager, and CFO and his department, gone to last winters’ GM meetings, and come away with something more substantial, and allocated the available funds in a more judicious manner. And, even if we didn’t make deals in late June or early July to solidify the bullpen, we’d have made attempts to change the mix by bringing up or sending down players, even if it meant releasing guys from the 40 and adding new ones…but it continues to be about financials and financials alone…(getting arbitration clocks started etc…) It wasn’t about guys being ready or not…
Get on the phone to your team leaders that run that clubhouse at the ASG break, tell your guys your proud of their first half…let them know you’re fighting with them and tell ‘em ‘we’re trying to get you some help, if you can keep it afloat a little longer guys, prices will drop’. Filter the message down to the shop stewards on the playing field. Emotion, reassurance, leadership, imparting a message, motivating….nothing….nothing. Just an arrogant reaffirmation of his non-belief in their 1st half success.
As if it’s a corporate hierachy, he can’t talk to players, it’s not his job, that’s for TC to do..It’s 2012 not 1975. That is where the shame of it lies…Rudderless, leaderless stoicism, not from ownership, there only self interest is in maintaining control and stopping the financial bleeding… not from the field manager, why not? Because he has a vested interest in winning and keeping his job… not from the players, they want to win, and win now… from the Front office.
Sorry to be long winded Des..anyway those are my thoughts when I say empty suit…
The handwriting was on the wall when Madoff was arrested and just about all of the Mets money was revealed to be tied up with that criminal.
Still think there was a reason Omar was fired with 2 years left on his contract and SA was hired. Part of the deal the Wilpons cut with Selig to try and save the franchise for them. Have to wonder what might have went down if MLB didn’t loan them 25 MIL, allow them to miss the deadline, allow them to take out a 40 MIL bridge loan to get to the minority investors.
Water under the bridge now.
This FO’s main goal was to save the team for the Wilpons. Mission accomplished in the short term.
With down revenues for the 3rd year in a row and the Wilpon’s Mets still broke, have to wonder what happens next.
NY Times reporting just how heavily in debt the Mets are:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/29/sports/baseball/as-madoff-money-is-distributed-mets-owners-wonder-what-might-have-been.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=1&
‘The Mets’ owners, of course, could use the money themselves to rebuild the team. They are heavily in debt. They lost $70 million during the 2011 season. And while they reduced player payroll by about $50 million this season and raised $200 million from outside investors, Citi Field attendance fell again, pushing overall revenue down. Another loss is expected.’
********************************************************************************
The Wilpons either cannot or will not invest in this team anywhere in the near future.
Doesn’t bode well for seeing a championship team anytime soon. Hard for me to put the bulk of the blame on the messenger on this debacle.
Dont get the reason for that article? Not one iota of new news and just a summary of the settlement made before the season. Irresponsible in fact not to mention the $35 million the Mets are getting from the new national TV deal, plus the $25 million from All Star game revenue not counting all the sponsorship deals that are coming of which Pepsi alone is expected to pay $50 million to sponsor two events.
Some Met fans are under the mistaken impression that just b/c the Wilpon/Picard trial never came to be and settled out of court, the Wilpon’s Mets are solvent. Far from it.
I’m sure they’re counting on All Star Game revenues. Problem is, they won’t have that money until next year. With down revenue the third year in a row, don’t expect them to spend any money this off season.
You know SRT you keep pressing the Wilpons as the reason but guess what…Your stuck with them and Sandy isn’t helping you he’s hurting you if thats what you really think is going on!
They are not going anywhere!
All the Boycotts on the planet won’t force them to sell the team…
So I suggest you start looking for another solution and stop giving Sandy a pass for implementing thier plan if your so sure it’s thier plan.
Metsie, please back down. You seem to be going after everyone and for anything. I dont need anyone defending me and I dont really care what is written in the comments about me. No need to be our guard dog. Anyone is free to express themselves as they wish.
To the rest of you, and you know who you are. Lets cut this nonsense out. Let’s stop playing that childish game of “I got you last”.
Some of you dont like playing nice with each other, so try ignoring each other and just cut this child’s play once and for all.
For any new reader coming upon some of these comments for the first time, they are all probably thinking there was an escape from the insane asylum and that they are all hiding out on MMO.
PLEASE!
ENOUGH ALREADY!
STOP HOGGING UP EVERY THREAD WITH SAME OLD ARGUMENTS BETWEEN THE SAME 5-6 PEOPLE.
ALL OPINIONS ARE WELCOME HERE… ALL!!!!
I apologize for my part in it. For the record, what I said about this article was NOT meant to be a personal attack against it’s author, just an argument against what he was saying. I’m sorry if it came off as anything other than that, and I’ll stop fueling any other arguments.
No need to apologize Superhero. It is I that should apologize to you. You left an opinion of the article and we encourage that here. There was no need for you to be attacked for it. I haven’t seen you comment here before and yet it seems like some seem to have you all sized up without even knowing you.
I’m sorry for that too.
Sometimes on sites where all opinions are welcome, the sides on the poar ends get a little too carried away, over zealous, and even arrogant. There’s never any call for resorting to insults and name-calling.
I hope you continue to stick around and be a part of our community. You might not be able to tell it, but 90% of us are quite normal and enjoy talking about the team. It’s the other 5% on the other opposing sides that make it difficult for the others to get a word in edge wise.
I feel bad for you Joe. Making this your vocation, and having a few people that can’t control themselves trying to ruin it for you. There are quite a few passionate Met fans, that like to visit sites like this, that refuse to come here (and certainly would never post) because of the actions of a minority.
And to be fair, there is only 1 “side” where the attacks and abuse come from. Besides the fact that the Sandy lovers club pretty much only exists in a few people’s minds, it is hard to have a side for that!
It’s like Joe D said you have to ignore those that you know is pointless to engage in conversation some due to prior talks that bring nothing to the table but the same points restated over and over again while others where there is no respect for one another by making it a personal thing.
Joe D could make a post about what is the difference between a vegetable and a fruit and some would find a way to segue into an argument about either the Wilpons, Alderson, Saber, OBP, or all of the above and I mean argument not discussion cause that is all some want to talk about. The Santana No-Hitter post was one of the saddest examples of that that I have ever seen.
The quality of the comments on MMO would be that much better if some just took Joe D’s advice and just ignore those you know getting into an argument will be a wasted effort.
then maybe some of the very intelligent people that refuse to come here would give it a chance after all.
For the life of me I dont know how you deal and put up with some of these people. They act like apes and the language and tone they use is awful. You must have the patience of a saint. Some people just cant help it and ruin the experience for everybody.
Joe I’m glad to see you finally put him in his place. It’s been a long time coming. And with that I will also stop wasting my time with his badgering. He’s nothing but a detriment to this site. I’ll back off too.
Thanks for this. It’s about time.
Joe D — Thanks for your incisive comment. Nothing is more boring than yesterday’s news and a few folks are really on last week’s newspaper. Frankly when I see a comment more than five or six inches long, I usually skip over it. Those long comments I’ve read are almost always on the same subject that they were when the news was only a few weeks old. It’s like having a 33rpm recording needle stuck in the same groove. Endless minutiae.
Some Mets fans are under the impression that the Wilpons are NOT solvent and still may have some financial woes but also understand that doesn’t excuse the hired GM from making creative moves to help keep the team in contention while trying to keep fannies in the seats in order to increase revenue.
Some Mets fans like me believe that the front office hasn’t spent whatever resources they were given too wisely at all, see DJ Carrasco, The Bullpen mess of 2012 and how many more moves have backfired for this front office – in a time where you cannot make mistakes because there are so little resources.
Clearly this Front Office has made a bad situation worse because of the decisions they have made so far. Not only in NO trades, NO creativity, NO pro-activity, but in philosophy too. There are reports (according to The Stache on MMO Radio) that there are Mets minor leaguers that are complaining about the hitting philosophy, so if you have that problem rearing it’s ugly head down in the farm who knows how much it can fester before the problem grows larger. And something like that should be the LEAST of your worries at the minor league level when you’re too busy developing talent let alone now forcing them to adapt to new methods.
There are some Mets fans that would prefer to ignore all of that.
Alderson is, as one poster previously mentioned, an empty suit, a small market GM who thinks he can wow people with intelligent-sounding talk that in essence is short on substance and full of word play designed to manipulate the listener.
That’s his style that has served him well until he landed in this town, where he’s been exposed drip by drip. I personally recognized the charade rather quickly, and think he’s real weak dealing with trades, signings and fans on big league level, but better overall in building an organization from the ground up. He comes off as an empty and stale suit, who should leave GM duties to others who forge warmer relationships and are genuine along with good deal and trade making abilities. If Alderson had acted when the opportunity presented, Wright and Dickey would already be signed to extensions at lower cost, and Reyes would never have doned Marlins uni.
Some Mets fans are under the impression that the Wilpons are NOT solvent and still may have some financial woes but also understand that doesn’t excuse the hired GM from making creative moves to help keep the team in contention while trying to keep fannies in the seats in order to increase revenue.
Some Mets fans like me believe that the front office hasn’t spent whatever resources they were given too wisely at all, see DJ Carrasco, The Bullpen mess of 2012 and how many more moves have backfired for this front office – in a time where you cannot make mistakes because there are so little resources.
Clearly this Front Office has made a bad situation worse because of the decisions they have made so far. Not only in NO trades, NO creativity, NO pro-activity, but in philosophy too. There are reports (according to The Stache on MMO Radio) that there are Mets minor leaguers that are complaining about the hitting philosophy, so if you have that problem rearing it’s ugly head down in the farm who knows how much it can fester before the problem grows larger. And something like that should be the LEAST of your worries at the minor league level when you’re too busy developing talent let alone now forcing them to adapt to new methods.
There are some Mets fans that would prefer to ignore all of that.
The same met fans that want to ignore that are the same ones that are bedazzled by our current GM’s mastery of a thesaraus and dictionary…
give me Omar Minaya as GM with Sandy as COO/President…aka…the guy who gives nice speeches while Omar goes and gets the best talent
I’d take Omar back in a nannosecond are you kidding me? After what we’ve seen done by this sabermetric horror? Omar would feel like a God send now.
I always said I would have loved to see Omar and Bobby Valentine work with a small budget. No doubt in my mind the Mets would be in much better shape than they are now and the fan base would be a lot happier enjoying BASEBALL instead of all this metric NONSENSE that is ruining the franchise
Omar couldn’t even work with a large budget. There’s not even a conversation to be had about that. And Bobby V sure did a bang up job in Boston. And that was with owners who DIDN’T meddle.
Omar couldnt work with a large budget?
ur bugging…
the only reason the mets fell apart in 2009 was b/c their 1B, SS, CF, 3B, Closer, 2 SP all saw serious DL time…
the residue from that year spilled over into 2010 with Beltran…had the mets stopped di*cking around with the fans and just DL’d Beltran in May instead of giving him cortisone shots…his bone bruise heals and he starts the 2010 season…instead we had Jeff Francour…
to top it off…Omar couldnt even fire HoJo…hell Im convinced Sandy cant fire Dan Warthen…this is a dysfunctional team from the top on down
so back to the budget……like Sandy in 2011/2012…when the mets needed bullpen help…which would require taking on a lil bit more salary…the ownership handcuffed the team…Where the Yankees go and get Ichiro Suzuki and pay Soriano 14 mil to be their 8th inning man / emergency closer….
the mets would’ve never made that move and never would pay Soriano that much to be a “just in case guy” for Mariano…
this is the difference b/w good ownership and bad…
good ownership covers up for GM’s mistakes and injuries…
bad ownership forces the team to play Jason Bay and masks injuries as they did to Beltran/Reyes/Delgado in 2009…
All Omar had to show for the highest payroll in the NL was one division title. And even that required a bit of luck because the Marlins literally handed him Delgado and the Braves had their first losing season in sixteen years. He consistently had an open checkbook to sign the best players and even with that luxury, there was one division in six years. Injuries are no excuse. They happen to every team and perhaps there wouldn’t have been so many injuries had Omar not invested lots of money in old, injury prone players. Maybe this team would be more athletic if he hadn’t spent most of his draft picks on lumbering corner infielders with plus bats and no defensive skills. He got us Harvey, which is nice, Ike, which is nice, Tejada, which is nice, and……..what else? Tejada’s not even a game-changer. He’s the capable, stable middle infielder. That’s it.
That’s all the Mets have to show from Omar. Billions of dollars spent, one division title, one good looking pitcher, one good looking first baseman, one capable shortstop and a couple of kids who might stick in the majors. Might. That’s it.
And Harvey, Parnell, Edgin, Niese, Duda and Davis were scouted and signed by scouts Steve Phillips hired. These guys would be here regardless of Omar.
Thanks for reminding me. I should have added Niese with the other three. Just slipped my mind. Harvey, Ike, Niese and Tejada. But your point is spot on, too. The Americans subject to the draft were scouted by Phillips hires. Omar got Tejada, which I’ll give him credit for. I love the kid, but we all see his limitations. You can’t hang your hat on Tejada.
Isnt that the same scouting department that Omar Minaya rebuilt from 1997-2001….
The Mets from 97-01 found Reyes, Wright, Nelson Cruz, Robinson Cano, Ubaldo Jiminez
Omar had to beg to get Reyes signed for 30K….
Cano and Jiminez were both turned down by Ownership after Omar was unsuccessful with getting them to loosen the purse strings…
The last time Omar was a scout was in Texas….
When you are heading up a scouting department…your scouts bring dozens of players to your attention…you pick a couple…then fight to get the money to sign them…the one u can afford is the one u get…
there is accountability, credit and blame up and down the chain…
but with met fans…if the prospect sux, its Omar fault…if he’s great…the scout gets the credit..
lmao
never fails with u guys
No, Omar got rid of the scouts that scouted and signed Reyes and Cruz. Eddie Toledo and Juan Mercado. He brought in Ramon Pena, Ismeal Cruz and Benny Latino. The scouts that were there were from Phillips and Cashen/ McIlvaine. Omar wasn’t even with the Mets in 97. Where did you get the Mets wanted to sign Cano and Jiminez. I’ve never seen anything linking thse 2 players to Omar or the Mets
Omar wasnt here in 1997?
and in 1997, the Mets’ new general manager, Steve Phillips, brought Minaya home to Queens. “For me, Omar wasn’t just a great scouting eye, he was my contrarian,” Phillips says. “You’d get plenty of conventional wisdom from other people, but Omar would make you think about weird ideas. But some of them I came around to.” In 1999, Minaya advocated bringing Rickey Henderson and Shawon Dunston to the Mets, modest moves that ended up paying large dividends. He also lobbied to trade for closer Armando Benitez, who turned out to be a decidedly mixed blessing.
==============================================
Ubaldo Jiminez
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2010/03/ubaldo-jimenez-the-pitcher-that-got-away-from-the-mets.html
===============================================
Robinson Cano – Sports Illustrated 2010
the Mets did give Cano a tryout and wanted to sign him, but their scout, Eddy Toledo, told Jose that the club could not meet his asking price. “I talked to his father and told him, ‘Your son is going to be a good player in the major leagues, but I don’t have that $250,000 you’re asking for,’” recalls Toledo, now a Rays scout.
=====================================================
And Gary Larocque found Wright not Omar. And you had the nerve to accuse me of making sh** up to defend a lawyer masquerading as a GM?
Weeding is Fwundamental
I never said OMAR was responsible for finding Wright…Gary Laroche was head of amateur scouting ….
1 – that does NOT make him a scout…that makes him responsible for selecting the best prospect his scouts present…affordability is part of that package ( esp with the mets )
2 – Larouche worked for Minaya …on some level Minaya would have to give a thumbs up/down on a high level draft pick…unless u think the wilpons hired Omar for his good looks and NOT his ability to recognize talent…
3 – Minaya had a TREMENDOUS amount of input in both the amateur and IFA departments…hell in Steve Phillips own words, he helped shape the major league roster as well…
http://www.baseballamerica.com/execdb/?show=exec&eid=minayom01
Minaya’s first year with the Mets was in 1998
http://www.baseballamerica.com/execdb/?show=exec&eid=minayom01
He hires him after the 97 season was over.
Larocque was the of scouting director and he was a scout. He is the scout that signed Wright and Pagan. It’s a fact. Omar was not in charge of the draft. he did not hire Gary Laroque or Carmen Fusco. Neither Larocque or Fusco worked for Omar, they worked for Duquette. Duquette was the one who originally said no to Eddy Toledo about Reyes. If Omar was in charge he wouldn’t have had to get the okay from Duquette, he would’ve just said okay to Toledo when he got the call. You need to get your info straight. Omar was in charge of INTL Scouting not amatuer scouting. he had nothing to do with the draft. At that time he was a subordinate of Duquette.
He did have a lot to do with the ML roster and orchestrated some of the deals that Phillips pulled off, like Mike Piazza. I don’t dispute the fact that he had a big hand in helping Phillips build that team. He didn’t have a lot to do with the Rule IV. It’s impossible for a single man to have a lot of nput in both the draft and IFA’s. It’s impossible.
Also there is nothing linking Omar to Ubaldo Jimenez or Cano. Lets not stoop to making things up trying to defend a scout masquerading as a GM.
So if he was hired in October of 1997….do you think he takes a 6 month vacation before he starts working?
Omar was an Asst GM….not a player on the roster…
and Gary was hired in October 1998, a whole year after Omar came on board…
I love dealing with a whiner. You make my day. But don’t ever try to be an accountant. You don’t do numbers well.
Hi SRT,
I forgot that Omar had two years left on his contract. Always took it as the front office just running out of patience with the former GM and not Selig making the hiring of Sandy a possible prerequisite for all the help that was needed.
What we don’t know – to be fair – is when the discussion between Selig and the Wilpons began – after Omar was fired or before that – in order to determine if Omar was forced out due to Alderson coming in. There was that search committee and interview process to consider. So in all honesty, there is no way we can prove that Omar was ousted because Selig wanted Alderson in or that his fate was already sealed regardless.
With the Mets in a race for the division lead with Atlanta, their falling so quickly from grace after that came in part for Omar doing absolutely nothing to help the club (sound familiar?) which many questioned why such inactivity. Now we know. We also know that gave the Wilpons the perfect alibi to say why Omar was let go.
It should be pretty clear to everyone by now that the man doesn’t even understand baseball. He is simply a corporate shirt in a fancy suit with a vocabulary of executive words that says nothing. He is simply a front to keep the owners in power and deflect criticism from them. The team is in a downward spiral that will only worsen as long as he is running the FO. Fancy words from the egomaniac will not puts fams in seats and most certainly will not win games. He’s had enough them to display his incompetence. It’s time for him to leave town and go somewhere else where he is not wanted.
DJ was a small potatoes signing as BP filler, for a whopping 2.5 mill over 2 years. He did not perform well, and was sent packing. This was not some huge “all in” move that is a noose around the teams neck, preventing them from moving forward.
I have been saying from day 1 there was no plan from Sandy Alderson. This is simply a retirement job for the great and powerful Alderson. He hired his buddies to keep him company. He’s not a good GM. He’s a lawyer who fancies himself a baseball mind. No team hired him in over a decade to be their GM. He needed his friend the commissioner to get him this job.
Alderson has shown his true colors more than once. The box of chocolate’s comment, openly criticizing other GM’s, knocking his own players like he did with Dickey this summer saying on Francesa he felt RA was more worried about being a celebrity than a pitcher and of course the Ike Davis party animal nonsense to try to get approval from the marks when he decides to trade him.
Happy to see people are slowly but surely coming around and realizing this smooth talking GM with the big vocabulary is just as bad if not worse than Omar.
Most people (on both sides of the great divide) seem to agree that he was a “gift” from Selig. But usually it is assumed his job #1 was to straighten out the financial and operational issues with the team (often put in terms of “saving” it for the Wilpons).
I think though this is the first time I saw anyone imply it was a retirement gift so he could go collect a paycheck as some kind of reward for service. That sounds more like the president naming him ambassador to bora bora.
Retirement? Interesting speculation.
Still doesn’t address why the Wilpons fired ‘their man’ Omar with 2 years to go on his contract, hiring another GM and having to pay 2 salaries for an organization that was dead broke when they did it. I don’t think the Wilpons were doing SA any favors, at least that wasn’t their main objective.
well technically, Omar only had 1 year left…and remember, they attempted to “reassign” him rather just terminate his contract.
Sandy Alderson attempted to talk Omar into taking another role in the organization but Omar said he wanted nothing to do with them aside from ride the contract out….and to be honest…the way they made him the fall guy, I dont blame him one bit….
Omar wanted Derek Lowe…not Ollie…Ownership declined…
Omar wanted Eckstein…not Castillo…Ownership again declined…
when Omar settled on Ollie/Castillo…Ownership hung him out to dry….
the same way Sandy can never release Bay til next year ( if he’s lucky )…Omar never had the authority to do what was necessary for the team…hell…he had to trade Wagner for salary relief instead of a better prospect…no way on earth that was his call
Was it only 1 year? I could have sworn it was 2 but my bad if I got that wrong.
I do remember they wanted him to stay with the organization but just assumed that was more like ‘we’re paying you, we’d like to get something out of it’.
I never bought into that ‘Omar has full autonomy’ as it was often claimed. I think we’ve all read enough to know that the Wilpons often played GM, and not always because of the money. Doubleday (who I had no love lost for) took a parting shot when they bought him out, saying that Jeff was going to be the downfall of this organization. You have to wonder if it was his interference more than Fred’s that lead to some of these moves.
Wow, was that so hard? I agree and give you credit.
Was what so hard? Don’t understand your question here in relation to what I said.
I don’t recall Fred interferring with any of his GM’s. Jeff on the other hand thought he was Connie Mack. He undermined Omar all the time.
They both interfered…surprisingly enough…there have been plenty of cases where they have argued over things like dimensions ( Fred wanted old school big…Jeff thought it would hurt offense )….managers….( Jeff never wanted Willie… )….also Jeff has been known to go to the minor leagues and throw his 2 cents in…
this is the same guy who had 0 college baseball experience….was drafted in the last round as a favor to his father by the expos gm..( even he couldnt get Cashen to draft Jeffy as a favor…this says ALOT ) ….then he QUITS spring training after 3 days….a dream come true for most kids…but b/c Jeffy wasnt guarenteed a spot…he had to EARN it ( for once )…he couldnt hack it and just quit…2 years later at 23, he was VP of Operations for the Mets…w/o a college degree…
so basically…our COO has NO baseball experience…no college degree….and no matter how bad he is, he can never get fired cuz his dad is the boss and this team is his inheritance…
marinate on that for a second…
What you’re bringing to the table is old news. We’ve all known your revelations for at least two or three years. Yet you don’t mention Tony Bernazard and all the help he gave Omar.
Let’s bring in Sherlock Holmes to help your efforts.
Now ur bringing up Tony B…
a guy that was going over Omar’s head and was tighter with Jeff Wilpon than his boss was…
Omar couldnt fire Tony B, til the press forced their hand…
If Omar was tight with anyone he hired…it was Sandy Johnson…the guy who hired him in 1984 for the rangers…
listen to Omar describe how he felt hiring Tony…and Sandy
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1919628
who do u think he was really excited about?
Wilpons need to sell period!
The article makes a general reference about being pursued by other clubs but does not not mention who, when or how far the discussions went.
This appears as case of writer trying to make a story more interesting. It is common though many do not realize it. I will give a good example.
In his book “Pennant Race” written by former Cincinnati reliever Jim Bronson more than fifty years ago (the “Ball Four” of it’s generation) Bronson mentioned a game about a starter walking the lead-off batter with something like an eight run lead. Bronson says the manager, Fred Hutchison (whom we lost way too soon due to cancer) yelled out “why are you walking somebody with an eight (?) run lead. Throw the damn ball”. He then went on to give up a multitude of hits including a few homers and was knocked out of the box.
The problem is if one looks at the box score, that batter did not walk leading off that inning – he singled and the pitcher continued being hit hard. But by changing the facts somewhat, Bronson made for a more interesting story – a pitcher being told to throw strikes by his manager and then being bombed out for his efforts is indeed much more entertaining a read. But it did not happen that way.
Thus when there is no information on the web about Sandy being in discussion with any other club either in stories about a franchise’s search selection or in interviews with Sandy himself, one must feel that passage was indeed just inserted by the writer to juice up an article with a little white lie that is really of no major significance it being true or not.
Again, we see this all the time and that is why it is good for the reader to vet more.
Well why don’t you show an article that says no other teams ever persued his services instead of doing what you always do. Speculate! You are speculating that no other team was interested in his services but you have given no evidence to support your claim. Just your typical conjecture of a writer you have no knowledge of trying to juice up a story. Do you know which jobs other former GM’s were or were not offered? Tell us how many teams persued Terry Ryan. Tell me how many teams persued John Hart. Tell us how many teams persued John Shuerholz. Until you show us evidence that disputes the evidence I provided that no other team was interested in his services you have failed yet again. I showed an article that says he was. You showed nothing.
So, were teams beating down Alderosn’s door for Lucas Duda? Jordanny Valdespin? Ike davis and that sexy .168 batting average?
Josh Satin burning up the hot sheets?
Or maybe we could have traded Jason Bay for…the outfielder …we needed…because he wasn’t performing.
Alderson’s a terrible GM because he hasn’t made any creative trades, and he’s a terrible GM for even entertaining the idea of trading Ike or Niese or Dickey or Harvey. Don’t you know creative trades only count if the Mets give up their bums for other team’s quality?
u mean like Omar did when he gave up bums for Delgado…and LoDuca…and Duaner Sanchez..
..and Endy Chavez in 06…and Valentin in 06…and signs Tatis in 08 who performs like a champ.RA Dickey in 09…best signing by ANY GM in the past 10 years..
sorry…but give Omar a competent owner who supports him and the mets win a few division titles and who knows how far they go in the playoffs
Delgado and LoDuca were handed to Omar. I’ll give him credit for being at the right place at the right time, but he didn’t do anything there that any other GM wouldn’t do. The Marlins were dumping players and had an open checkbook to take on any salary so why not?
And Sanchez? Fine. He pitched well with the Mets, but the Mets traded a 28-year-old pitcher for him who was coming off an 8-2, 2.59 season. If Sandy ever traded a 28-year old pitcher with a 2.59 ERA, he’d be killed here for it. Jeez, have you seen the tirades people have gone on when the subject of trading Niese is brought up? Huge double standard.
Omar didn’t trade for Chavez. As a matter of fact, he traded him away, along with Joe Smith who’s been about as solid a reliever as you can find, for JJ Putz and Sean Green. Awesome job, Omar.
Omar didn’t trade for Jose Valentin, either.
Tatis didn’t play “like a champ.” He had a solid two years as a Met and a pitiful third year. By the way, Scott Hairston has a slightly higher OPS as a Met than Tatis did.
And RA Dickey is a Met now because of Sandy, not because of Omar. If you want to give Omar credit for Dickey, then Omar gets “credit” for Manny Acosta.
If Delgado and LoDuca were handed to Omar, then wasn’t Dickey handed to Alderson? Name me one GM in their right mind that wouldn’t have brought back Dickey after the fabulous season he had in 2010? Fact is that Dickey is never a Met if Omar doesn’t sign him, heck he might not even be in the major leagues. If it wasn’t for Omar, Dickey would probably be retired or pitching in Japan.
Anyway, couldn’t have any other team made a play for Delgado? He wasn’t available to just the Mets. Omar saw an opprtunity, and he took advantage of it – That’s what good GM’s do.
Of course not everything he done he was good, we all know that. We also all know that he didn’t leave the team in a great situation. However, I think the point we are making here is that Sandy has done nothing to improve the situation.
When he first took over the team, he had two options in my mind. 1 one was to try to compete and win with the team he had. Or 2, clean house and start from scratch. He did niether. The first year he went with the team he had and added nothing to it except a bunch of scrubs – the next year, he again went with the team he had, but this time let one of the homegrown stars walk away, and again add nothing valuable to the team.
What the hell is that? Sure, Wheeler is nice, but if your rebuilding, you need to make more than one move than that. Also going through the motions of the draft and IFA’s isn’t rebuilding cause, EVERY team does that. So we are not rebuidling and we are not competing.
After two years, we should be seeing a clearer vision for this team, instead the vision for this team is even more cloudy than it was when he took over.
Of course Dickey was handed to Alderson. He was already here. What does that have to do with anything? It doesn’t change the fact that Dickey’s a Met now because of Alderson, not Minaya. Again, if you credit Minaya with Dickey, then he also gets credit (read: blame) for Acosta.
And yes, anybody could have traded for Delgado and LoDuca. Which is why he doesn’t get much more than “right place, right time” credit for it. He didn’t pry away anybody’s untouchables nor did he steal a star for a team expecting top prospects back. They were getting dumped regardless, and Delgado had already turned Omar down when it was his choice to do so.
It’s funny and sad at the same time watching these people trying to bring down what Minaya did to build a winner/contender. It’s a joke. All this in the name of a smug, deceitful GM who is a public relations nightmare driving fans away from the park with his horrible personaity, his detachment from anything human in favor of metrics, his terrible condescending interviews. And the funny part is he’s condescending while the team gets WORST!
Gonna be a very interesting off season. Now ironically, he has raise his game and try and do something comparable to Omar or Steve Phillips did in order to save his behind or else the man is toast here before his contract is up
Sorry, I should’ve been clear…i wasnt just talking about trades…i was talking about finding bargains either via trade or free-agency…in that regard, Omar is hands down better than Sandy Alderson…
I’ll take this apart one by one
RA Dickey
You said: And RA Dickey is a Met now because of Sandy, not because of Omar.
did Sandy Alderson go into a time machine and sign Dickey in 2009?
Dickey is here b/c of Omar…Omar scouted and drafted Dickey back in 1996… tried to get him in 2008 from Seattle..Dickey HIMSELF has given Omar credit for helping resurrect his career..
but somehow Sandy gets the credit….
well alrighty then !
Score 1 for Omar
====================================================
Fernando Tatis:
wait…Tatis didnt play like a champ in 2008?
he was voted Comeback player of the year…almost singlehandedly kept us in the race from June-August…not good enough for u huh…
in 2009….he went back to being a utility player….due to injury, he played almost 8 different positions that year….
in 2010, he sucked gorilla donkey balls….but he was always a cheap investment…so no harm no foul…
Score 2 for Omar
==========================================================
Endy Chavez
Omar found Endy Chavez….and Endy gave us career years from 06-08…..but when Endy was forced to play more due to the mets injuries in 2008….he was exposed…this has been the case in 09-10-11 and this year….
now being that we blew 27 games in 2008…and over 20 games in 2007….and over 20 games in 2005….the only year we were solid in the pen was 2006….and guess what…omg…we won the division…..
Omar essentially traded a 4th outfielder for 2 relievers who had solid records…after signing the best reliever on the market…
Everyone bashed Omar for trying to fix a problem…by saying he should fix a problem before its a problem…
well in baseball…thats usually done through your minor league system….the one that takes about 5-6 years to build…
Omar didnt have 5-6 years to BUILD a minor-league system…his mission was to QUICKLY turn around a sinking ship AND stock up their minor-league system…on the cheap…
go ahead and name ONE GM in baseball that has ever been able to do that …
Theo? – he took over a team with a great farm system that made the playoffs 3 out of the past 4 years and were 1 strike away from a WS…
Cashman? – LOL next
Beane – nope…oakland sucked before he turned it around…
Andrew Friedman – nope….Tampa was already on its way to having a great minor league system
Daniels – nope – the rangers built slowly too…
in his first 4 years here, Omar broke attendance records 3 years in a row..( hence the EXTENSION at the end of 2008 ) …had the best overall record in the NL….and also stocked up their minor league system with the guys u were/are raving about
Kirk
Ike – ok ur raving about his 3
Tejada
Valdespin
Niese
Parnell
================================
Jose Valentin – Had the 3rd most HR by a 2nd baseman…and most for someone in the 8th spot….all on the cheap…it was patchwork at its finest..
not enough for u though
==================================
The truth is…if Omar inherited the system he left behind for Sandy….the mets would’ve had the depth to sustain the injuries that come with signing players 30 + over….
Omar built the 2005-2008 teams that competed, going up a mountain, 100 mph…on a rainy day…we were built to fail, b/c everything has to go PERFECT…and it never does…
If Sandy inherited the Mets financial situation in 2004…well he wouldnt be the GM b/c the only reason he is here is b/c the Wilpons got caught up in that Ponzi Scheme…I’m not even interested in grading Sandy’s performance as a GM…he is more of a spokesman
No way does any GM who is interested in REBUILDING the farm system, not go all out in the IFA market in 2011, knowing the limitations to come in 2012…
and even worse…fail to sign over half their draft picks in 2012…
Sandy is NOT rebuilding…he is just talking…
but to u, despite the fact he was not employed by the mets in any capacity…he gets credit for signing Dickey in 2009…
lmao…so typical…
Beautiful post Damaja! Beautiful!
For some reason there is a segment of Mets fans that now dislike 2 of the most successful GMs in Mets history – Omar Minaya and Steve Phillips. They built teams that were excited and gave us a reason to be proud Mets fans, our teams were GOOD and were CONTENDERS.
But now these people have turned their back on those years in the name of a GM who has done not only nothing but turn his back on the players as they compete but has made a bad situation worse! He has more holes now than when he took over and is now about 2 lose 2 more notable players.
It probably never occurred to you that people are merely being fair and honest about Omar an it only seems like they’re bashing him because that’s what a fair and honest assessment sounds like when talking about Omar.
I just want someone to add Acosta to the long list of Omar’s failures if they’re going to credit him for Dickey’s Cy Young award. The double standard is so huge.
And just to clarify… Trading 4th outfielders for relievers with solid track records is forgivable if they under perform if Omar does it, but Ramirez, who’s still pitching better than Putz and Green did, is a bust? Just trying to see where you draw the double standard line.
And just because Tatis won an award for being at best just as good as Hairston doesn’t make him a better sign than Hairston. He can play just as many positions as Hairston can.
And Valentin is a terrible example of smart signings and a perfect example of luck. God forbid Sandy signs a guy who hit .170 in 56 games. Are you kidding? You want smart signings? Sandy spent almost the same amount of money for a guy who averaged 17 home runs and plays multiple positions. That’s a smart signing.
Ok, sure. Omar signed a RP on a minor league deal that was a total bust.
What does Angel Pagan have to do in your eyes to be more than a 4th OFer? Do you see the season he is having? He’s been a starting outfielder for years now, and is going to sign a good-sized contract in the offseason to be a starting OFer. Angel Pagan is a starter – Case closed.
Tatis in 2008 hit much better than Hairston. And Tatis actually hit left handers as well as right handers, unlike Hairston.
Watching Pagan play baseball makes him a 4th outfielder. Good for him for having two good months with the bat this season. The fact that he starts for a team makes that team desperate for offense, it doesn’t make him a strting quality OF.
Pagan is leading the majors in triples this year…is again hitting almost .300…has the 3rd highest batting average among all MLB CF….and is starting for a division winning ball-club…
but according to u…he’s a 4th OF…
Oh please. You can slice and dice pretty much anybody’s numbers like that and say “they only had two good months”. Doing that doesn’t prove your point, it just proves your trying to diminish what Pagan has done this year.
Why is it Ok for you to back up your points with your eyes? Isn’t that what you make fun of all the time? “MY EYEZS”?
Also, I’ll say the same thing about Valentine. If he’s an example of luck, then wouldn’t Jason Bay be an example of being unlucky?
If you want to call giving a power hitting, mediocre left fielder huge money to hit in a huge ballpark and play in an expansive outfield unlucky, then yeah. Omar was real unlucky there.
If you can’t watch Pagan play baseball and realize he’s a 4th outfielder, you should get your “eyez” checked.
Exteme Icon you are such a tool. As if you didn’t know that there were two studies, one by the Mets and on on Fangraphs that Bay’s power played well at Citi Field before the signing. Lets pretend it was just a blind signing so it can fit you’re agenda. Lets pretend Bay wasn’t sixth in MVP voting, second in league in home runs, and won a silver slugger that season. Lets pretend we we didn’t need a power hitter in the most desperate way and he was the best one available. Keep pushing your agenda.
Sure, all that in a hitter’s park surrounded by an outstanding lineup. Silly me for thinking that wouldn’t translate to Citi. I guess if Fangraphs said it, it must be true. Funny how I have an agenda when all of a sudden you’re referencing fangraphs when it fits your argument. So what Bay did in Boston means he could do it anywhere, right? Funny thing bout baseball. If you don’t understand what you’re watching, it could kick you right in the ass.
Yep Maniac, the guy who averaged 30 homeruns from 04-09 is mediocre. And he hit hit over 30 playing in PNC park, so it wasn’t only because of Fenway.
And Angel Pagan, who’s in the top ten in most stats among CFer’s, is a fourth outfielder.
It’s amazing to see the things people come up with just to defend Alderson.
Vinny, It’s amazing how they say anything to push their agenda.
At least there are two of us in me and you that can maintain our objectivity. And it’s not just Jessep and Extreme, I understand Alex and Bayonne are similar in pushing their agendas too. But at least some of us can tell it like it is without the filters they use and we don’t change our narratives to suit that day’s discussion.
I meant his defense was mediocre. His final year and a half in Pittsburgh was nothing special except for a great May in 09 then all of a sudden he hits like a champ in a hitter’s park in a great lineup. It’s amazing the selective memory people have when they want to defend a bad GM.
Maniac, did it ever occur to you that an honest, non-agenda driven opinion of Omar’s tenure here might sound like bashing because he in fact did a very bad job? Are you aware you’re accusing someone of having an anti-Omar agenda who wrote multiple articles for this site praising Omar for the good he did and wishing he remained with the team in the capacity he could help the most?
And they continue to defend Alderson based on the same principles they make fun of and that’s hope, ghosts, goblins, grit, hustle, all intangibles and all of the stuff you can’t quantify and they make jokes about.
Sandy has done nothing and they HOPE he’s able to turn this franchise around even though the evidence points to the exact opposite, and 2 years into the job as well. There is NO evidence of Sandy doing a good job except a couple moves and like someone said before – he was looking to get rid of Beltran and he’s LUCKY that the team that had Zack Wheeler just happened to be fighting for the World Series so they took a chance.
I mean someone here said before that Steve Phillips was lucky with his trades because the Marlins were dumping salary. Well if that’s the case doesn’t the same principle apply to Saber Sandy? He was lucky that the Giants were going for the World Series, needed a bat because Buster Posey was hurt and LUCKILY them and the Mets crossed paths.
Meanwhile the FACTS are the Mets were successful under Omar Minaya and Steve Phillips. Sure we lost heartbreaking games on the field but Omar and Phillips achieved a level of successful runs with the Mets that Alderson will never accomplish. And I highly doubt his legacy will even be a factor as well.
Come on. His numbers were almost exactly the same in 08 for Pittsburgh and Boston. It’s not like all of a sudden he became a great player as soon as he went to Boston – he had similar numbers for both teams.
If your gonna call a signing that worked out much better than expected, lucky, then it’s only fair if you call a signing that didn’t work out as expected, unlucky.
If you expected the signing to work out, that is. 2007 was Bay’s worst season since he became a full time player. His 2008 with the Pirates was fueled by one good month and the rest were just as bad. The decline was obvious. Boston had a park and lineup that game him another life. The Mets had an extreme pitcher’s park. It’s not rocket science.
So ur other option to play LF in 2010 would’ve been ________________
fill in the blank here
The decline was obvious? Give me a break. He was on a pace for 34 home runs with Pittsburgh. And please don’t give me that “one good month” argument. Like I already told you, you can slice and dice anybody’s numbers and say “well they only had two good months”.
Let’s keep in mind that month he had was a GREAT month and he also didn’t play a full season for them cause he was traded. So one month was a big part of his 08 season for the Pirates. Also, it’s not really true that he only had one good month away – His OPS was over .800 EVERY month with the Pirates that year.
So, not only is it unfair to slice and dice a player’s numbers like that, what your saying isn’t even accurate.
It seems to me that when your championing months of .800 OPS when coming of years of .900 OPS, you’re avoiding the obvious decline. If it was on year, I’d call it a blip on the radar. But after 2007, it was clearly a decline.
Now you’re just playing with numbers. In total, Bay’s number’s in 2008 with both the Pirates and Red Sox’s were similar to what he always had.
There was no decline.
The minimum PA Pagan has had since 2010 is 532 and twice has been over 600. But he’s a “4th OFer”. Usually I use ABs and not PA but i’ll use PA in this case because it “looks better” so saber talk does have some use. It’s an extra tool to use if you feel like skewing numbers even more to suit your needs. More ways to play with numbers and less to do with actually being able to evaluate talent using your own experience.
Oh and in 2009 he was injured so that’s why he had only 376, but he was filling in for Beltran so you can say he was a 4th OFer back then but that’s changed and he’s been a starting centerfielder since 2010 and will most likely continue to be a starter the rest of his career especially if the Giants have success in the post season and he is a major part of that.
He was once considered a 4th Outfielder but that changed 3 years ago. He is obviously a starting Centerfielder on a team that can win the World Series.
Because trading Endy Chavez is not the same thing as trading Angel Pagan…
Offensively, Angel’s 2009 + 2010 were exponentially better than Endy’s 2006-2008….
You have neglected to mention that Endy has been released by 3 teams since the trade and is again a 4th OF who was in the minors this year…
Angel Pagan has started all year and is among the top offensive CF in all of baseball…
do u want to continue embarrassing yourself?
I suppose 2011 doesn’t count then. We can just cherry pick years to suit our arguments, right? Any unbaised person reading this thread knows full well who’s embarrassing themselves, or at least being dishonest about what happened.
umm…does 2012 count?
if so…angel pagan >>>> any current met outfielder
done embarrasing yourself ?
Also, when Bay played witht the Pirates, there wasn’t anybody good protecting him. And he still crushed 30 homers there.
They signed 33 IFA’s between April and July. No other team signed half as many. If that’s not going all out on IFA’s. I don’t know what is.
But they also didn’t sign half their picks this year, so it kinda evens out.
Fonzie, while one out of every four draft prospects make it to the majors. Only one out of every six international free agents make it to the majors.
So that means 5 and a half of them should make it. lol, And half of the draft was the back half of a weak draft. They signed 38 last year in a much deeper draft.
Come on Fonzie. You know it was a bad draft you even said so for weeks after it, what has changed your mind all of a sudden? In fact I remember you saying you were going to write a post at how mad you were about this draft in the chat room. Remember? What’s changed since then, please do tell.
Yes I was going to write a post about the failure to sign half the picks until I found out that they signed 33 IFA’s. I was not in favor of the Cecchini pick. I don’t jump off the deep end until I find out information as to why certain things are done. That’s why I waited until I found out about the IFA’s before I blew my stack about the draft.
Fonzie, So who are your favorite of these 33 picks and what can you tell us about them? You should write a nice report with scouting info on them to help convince me this 2012 draft wasn’t a total and epic failure as you and I once thought.
Maniac, I’d by lying if I told you I had a favorite. I haven’t seen any one of them play yet. And I won’t make anything up about them as 2 of the regulars here would have no problem doing. As you know they don’t televise the DSL. league. I can’t tell you any more about the 33 IFA’s as any of the people losing their minds about the missed signings of half the picks can tell you about them. I will try and gather as much info as I can. They may not get 1 MLB player out of that group. I’m only saying that maybe they thought they were worth bringing in more than the 2nd half of a weak draft class.
Thats interesting…the IFA signing period starts on the first week of July…according to u, they were able to skirt around the league rules and sign more than double the amount any other team has…
do u have a link that states where the mets have signed those 33 players or are u just making sh*t up in a desperate attempt to defend a lawyer masquerading as a GM?
Fonzie is not making that up. They did blow their wad on IFA but did so at the expense of more legitimate prospects in the draft including the highest rated high school pitcher Teddy Stankiewicz who was their unsigned second round pick. Some people, and I guess Fonzie is one of them, prefer IFA prospects to the MLB Draft. I dont subscribe to that theory.
ok…is there a link where i can verify that at ?
everything i have ever seen has IFA’s signed on the first week of July…
I dont know if there’s a link or where you can find one, but I’m pretty certain that I read that before and I know Fonzie to be truthful.
Actually it just occurred to me that Jim Callis said this in a Baseball America chat about two months ago. That’s where I read it.
They signed their first IFA on 1-24-12 and their last on 7-2-12 but according to you they can only sign them in July.
http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/team/transactions.jsp?c_id=nym#month=1&year=2012&team_id=121
Read for yourself.
Are you sure? It seems like teams would keep separate budgets for that sort of thing.
01/24/12
New York Mets signed free agent LHP Adrian Almeida.
New York Mets signed free agent RHP Marcos Molina.
01/26/12
New York Mets signed free agent 3B Gregory Valencia.
01/16/12
New York Mets signed free agent OF Junior Carrion.
01/26/12
New York Mets signed free agent RHP Nicolas Debora.
New York Mets signed free agent RHP Rigoberto Perez.
New York Mets signed free agent RHP Luis Popa
03/01/12
RHP Enmanuel Berihuete assigned to New York Mets.
New York Mets signed free agent RHP Luis Carreno.
New York Mets signed free agent LHP Yoan Gonzalez.
New York Mets signed free agent RHP Juan Marte.
New York Mets signed free agent LHP Aneury Olivo.
New York Mets signed free agent RHP Ramon Rodriguez.
New York Mets signed free agent C Jose Maria.
New York Mets signed free agent C Dionis Rodriguez
New York Mets signed free agent 3B Jhoan Urena
04/14/12
New York Mets signed free agent RHP Randinson Suazo.
New York Mets signed free agent RHP Bladimil Vallejo.
New York Mets signed free agent Jhonaiker Rodriguez
05/31/12
New York Mets signed free agent RHP Jean Alvarez.
New York Mets signed free agent RHP Yrelvis Castillo.
New York Mets signed free agent RHP Jorge Cespedes.
New York Mets signed free agent RHP Nabil Crismatt.
New York Mets signed free agent RHP Claudio Merilan.
New York Mets signed free agent RHP Marcos Molina.
New York Mets signed free agent RHP Randi Montero.
New York Mets signed free agent C Jose Garcia.
New York Mets signed free agent SS Jose Martinez.
New York Mets signed free agent OF John Mora.
New York Mets signed free agent OF Ysidro Pierre.
New York Mets signed free agent OF Hengelbert
07/02/12
New York Mets signed free agent SS German Rosario.
New York Mets signed free agent 2B Franklin Correa.
New York Mets signed free agent SS Miguel Patino
I don’t prefer IFA’s over the draft but this was considered one of the weakest drafts in many years so and this is just a thought, maybe they liked the IFA’s this year more than they liked the 2nd half of this years draft. They did sign 38 of their picks last year in what was considered one of the strongest drafts for pitchers in 2 decades so that can’t be forgotten either.
I think missing out on all those back end players was just their way of gaming the new rules.
the Stankowiz thing…I have no idea. something bad happened, because even if the draft is weak, round 2 is still going to have some worth while talent.
Failing to sign Stanky is the one that I’d still like to hear an explanation for. I mean they gave a 15th rounder, Phil Evans the same money last year that they refused to give their 2nd rounder this year. Makes no sense. There’s not an article to be found that mentions why they wouldn’t give slot money to their 2nd round pick.
I stand corrected on the deadline.
As far as how many IFA’s they signed…where can they stash these players..?
does signing a bunch of IFA’s = they released a bunch of IFA’s this year?
The Mets are one of four teams that have 2 Dominican Summer League Teams. That’s where all of them start off. Depending on how fast they develope will they go to the states to Rookie short season A. Last year Rafael Montero and Luis Mateo were so dominant there both made their way to the states after one year. Montero is aleady heading to AA next year.
Extreme Icon says: Delgado and LoDuca were handed to Omar. I’ll give him credit for being at the right place at the right time, but he didn’t do anything there that any other GM wouldn’t do.
That goes double for trading Beltran for Wheeler. Nothing any other GM in same position wouldn’t have done considering there were no comp picks for losing him to free agency. Right?
If you feel that way, take it up with all the analysts and writers who never gave Sandy a shot at obtaining such a highly touted prospect. If you mean everyone would have looked to deal Beltran, then yes. Everybody would have looked to deal Beltran. But no one thought Sandy could pull Wheeler for him.
It’s called spin and it happens all the time.
1 – Beltran was the TOP bat during that time
2 – Wheeler was not exactly performing well at the time…and was on the outs with the Giants staff b/c they tried to change his delivery to avoid injury on his shoulder
3 – The mets essentially punted on their 2011 season by trading Beltran and punted AGAIN by not resigning him for 2012…
Sandy COULD HAVE done both trading Beltran for the future and helping the 2012 season by signing the best bat we had in 2011…
again…I dont blame Sandy…he is just a spokesman…
That’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. Forgive me if I’d rather take the word of the entire analyst community than yours.
Really ?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/at-trade-deadline-mets-carlos-beltran-is-the-grand-prize/2011/07/25/gIQA5feYZI_story.html
Are you done ?
I don’t even know why you wasted bandwidth with that. What was the point? It said nothing about the kind of prospects the Mets would thought to land. Are you tryin to change the subject? Did you not understand that the caliber of player Beltran is was never in question? You find me someone who said the Mets could get Wheeler (or any top 5 prospect) for Beltran and we’ll talk. But I’m going to respond to you twisting words.
I’m always surprised Xtreem when I read how the Mets were supposed to get more for Beltran. I remember Joe D himself when reports of Domonic Brown for Beltran rumors came out he wrote a post thinking it was a insanity to think so and went as far as to say that he had a bridge to sell anyone that thought the Mets could get a B.A. Top 50 prospect for Beltran. He made a valid case for as to why at the time one being a team would not get any compensation draft picks after the season when Beltran became a free agent.
Wheeler was 35 at the time of the trade on B.A.’s Top 50 so the Mets did better than Joe D could of expected and in a town where the media is quick to criticize the Mets the move was described by some as the Mets robbing the Giants.
metsmerizedonline.com/2011/07/stop-the-insanity-domonic-brown-for-beltran-is-pure-fantasy.html
baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/2011/07/midseason-top-50-prospects-list/
ealdirtymets.com/2011/07/28/some-reactions-from-the-beltran-trade/
yup…cuz being the prize jewel of the trade market shouldnt get you at least 1 top SP prospect..
hell The Nats were able to get the TOP CATCHING PROSPECT in baseball at the time for Matt Capps..
But Sandy getting Wheeler for Beltran was something a magician only could do..
That last link is missing an r in front of it.
I think the Braves were dangling Mike Minor, the Phillies were dangling Domonic Brown and the Indians were said to be offering three B level prospects, according to gary Cohen well after the deal last year. he sadi on air. And it’s true that people like John Heyman, Tim Kirkjian, Peter Gammons and Buster Olney were saying that the Mets might be pushing it if they think they’re getting a top prospect for 2 months of Beltran and no compensation attached to him.
Matt Capps wasn’t a rental. he had another year left on his contract and they signed him for another year. The Twins also have pretty good catcher as well. You may have heard of him.
Matt Capps in no way shape fashion or form was as highly sought after as Beltran at the trade deadline…the Twins had been holding out on Wilson Ramos for a while…they eventually offered Ramos for Cliff Lee a few weeks prior…when Nathan blew his arm out…they got desperate…
“Sandy COULD HAVE done both trading Beltran for the future and helping the 2012 season by signing the best bat we had in 2011″
Has that ever actually happened? I mean, I guess with roll players or something, they could get shuffled back in, but with a player of Beltran’s caliber?
Especially since Beltran wanted to leave because of the crappy treatment he got here.
Peter Shapiro has given us the best summation of the Mets season. Ownership and management decided at the beginning of this season that they did not want to make the playoffs. When the players gave them reason to believe they could, Alderson and company threw them under the bus, indeed, and did nothing. What team interested in competing plays a .155 hitter regularly in left field? What Sandy A. and the Wilpons did was disgrace the franchise and insult the fans.
“What team interested in competing plays a .155 hitter regularly in left field? What Sandy A. and the Wilpons did was disgrace the franchise and insult the fans.”
BINGO…
not just that…but the bullpen he built blew 18 games from April – June….
cut that in HALF and we would’ve been leading the division by 5 games then…
…to make it worse…when there was a market for Byrdak and Hairston….they were kept in a half-assed attempt to make .500 this year….
as if THAT is going to convince met fans to come back and spend money !!!
the mets are a dog and pony show so long as they are under Wilpon ownership…
I only bash Sandy now b/c he is their spokesman….he is ruining the integrity he built in this league by taking part in this mess…
an extreme pitchers park?
David Wright hit almost 30 Hr’s with the same dimensions in 2010…
and ur other option to play LF in 2010 was…..?
Matt H?
lmaooo
yeah ok…
Know I am repeating myself but I have attached numerous links in which Beltran said he wanted to remain a Met, both prior to his meeting with Sandy Alderson in the winter of 2010 and days prior to the trade that eventually sent him to San Francisco. Whether or not that was just lip service, we do not know, but at this point we must take him at his word. We know now how much a team player he was and how he worked hard with others both as a leader and to help them improve their game.
Regarding the eventual obtaining of Zach Wheeler, the Mets were offering Beltran to the highest bidder and I also attached posts in which Sandy admitted that if he couldn’t get a top prospect then he would consider monetary compensation instead.
Now even though this is just speculation, I am going to give Sandy credit for being the tough negotiator we understand him to be and forcing the Giants’ hand in terms of Wheeler. If the Giants were not willing to part with him, I doubt there was any way that Sandy could have talked them out of it. However, if he suspected that the Giants might yield because they so much wanted Beltran’s bat, I am sure he then played hardball, having as his trump card the many other offers he could take up on from opposing teams that would be a direct “threat” to the Giants in the division race. He used to his advantage the fact that he could play other teams off against each other and raising the ante for the Mets advantage.
For all we know, the Giants might have made the deal because of the threat someone else could have gotten Carlos instead and leap over them in the division and/or wildcard hunt. But in any event, Sandy saw an opportunity and he took it. But it had to be the Giants who were willing to part with Wheeler.
As far as IFA versus June draft, doesn’t one concern amateur high school and college players and the other with established professionals playing in other countries? Or is there more to it than that and it covers a large array of talent from high school to Godzilla (referring to Matusi’s nickname in Japan).
http://baseballnewshound.com/?page_id=1693
The Giants caved because Brian McCann got hurt and they feared the Braves were going to beat them to the deal. They did not want to give up Wheeler but were desperate for a bat and he was by far the best on the market. Their fanbase is still upset about it because they did not resign Beltran.
Not to get off subject…
but if u think baseball fans ( esp met fans ) are ticked off at the amount of latinos that are playing now in 2012…
wait til Castro croaks and Cuba allows the US to set up shop in their island…
its going to be interesting to see how that affects Venenzuala, Mexico, DR and PR scouting…
when / if this happens, I wonder if MLB uses Cuba as leverage to get DR’s steroid/age fraud situation straightened out
First off, screw anyone who gives a damn about a player’s nationality. I want the best players possible. Not just for the Mets, but for all of baseball.
Second, when (or if) Castro dies, there will still be years before that system is taken down.
third, Chavez is a Castro fanboy and is openly trying to get the Venezuelan league shut down.
Third, I’m almost certain the next CBA will include an international draft, so any moron who opposes all the Latin players in MLB is going to get their wish.
Why would anyone be ticked off about the amount of Latin players? If anything they should be happy that there is another avenue to go down to get more players into the sport and improve the quality of the sport. I could care less if the Mets had 15 Hisidic Jews on the team if they were all capable players. You’re starting to sound more and more like “Omar Fan”/ “Ghost of Omar”
Actually Fonzie,
It would be upsetting, even to me who is Jewish, to have 15 Hasidic’s on the roster only because every Friday night and Saturday afternoon game would fine us with just ten available players.
I’ve always been against anyone speaking in terms of anybody on the Mets playing favorites with one ethnic group over the other. Omar got that bad rap especially. Whoever is capable gets the job.
“Why would anyone be ticked off about the amount of Latin players?”
I dont know….but there were a ton of fans that were bothered by Omar signing latin players to the mets from 04-08…
hell, Omar’s 3rd day on the job and Adam Rubin already was insinuating that he was using racial favoritism
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2004-10-03/sports/18273207_1_hispanic-heritage-management-skills-jerry-manuel
FERGET ALL THIS – OFFICIALLY LICENSED FOREVER COLLECTIBLES R.A. DICKEY BOBBLE HEAD DOLL AVAILABLE STARTING TOMORROW MORNING!
OK Fonzie,
Let’s go with your point and therefore look into four questions that, by the process of elimination, should shed more light one way or the other.
1) What then was Bill Rigney’s specific role in Oakland when he served as special assistant for baseball matters to the President and later Executive Vice President (aka Haas) while Sandy Anderson was the Vice President and General Manager? Not his title but the actual responsibilities pertaining to his position, keeping in mind other executives were in charge of scouting and the minor leagues.
2) Since Rigney was at the winter meetings representing Oakland and made the trade for Carney Lansford, why would there be a change in his responsibilities if his title remained the same, keeping in mind that Sandy Alderson’s responsibilities supposedly did change with his new title?
3) If he had nothing to do at all with player moves, what did Sandy Alderson mean when he acknowledged Bill Rigney was involved in every player move? Keep in mind Sandy had his own assistant general manager during those years and that Rigney was supposedly involved in other matters.
4) In 1983 Alderson held the title of Vice President and General Counsel yet after he was appointed Vice President and General Manager, the position of Vice President General counsel or any executive title related to legal matters no longer existed in the Oakland executive structure. Who then handled the ongoing legal matters that necessitated the level of a Vice President after that?
These questions do need to be addressed and answered in terms of specifics.
I can’t believe you’re asking me this again when I showed you 2 links stating his role was as the teams consultant.
1) He was a consultant. He never held the title as GM. He stood in after Billy Martin was fired as interim.
2) Again the same question different day. Lansford was traded to Oakland in 1982. When was Sandy named GM? 1983. With Billy martin fired and no GM who else would be at the winter meetings? Another question that I have answered countless times.
3) Another question that I have answered on far too many occasions. No one EVER said he had nothing to do with the player moves. What is sais and is fact is that he was not in charge of those moves. he was the CONSULTANT. HE CONSULTED.
4) Roy Eisnehardt handled the legal matters as well as marketing. Okay? Enough? I’m guessing it’s just a matter of time before you bring this up again to misinform people. The question is not whether or not you will but when. You are totally obsessed.
Fonzie,
The question was what were Rigney’s responsibilities as a special assistant as appearing in the Oakland executive flow chart – or consultant as you put it – to the owner? So please provide a link specifically documenting what Rigney did during those years.
And though the owner did indeed choose Rigney to represent Oakland at the winter meetings on an interim basis, the question was what did Sandy Alderson mean when he said Rigney was involved in every player move? By that, did he imply that it was Rigney who made all the moves or that Rigney or even though he worked directly with the owner did he also have a shared working relationship with Alderson? And if so, what did he specifically do when with Alderson? Did he do more of the legwork and research, a certain part of it, or what? And why would Alderson even need him at all if he already had an Assistant General Manager working under him? Those are the answers I am looking for – not his title.
Roy Eisenhart was a partner at Farella Braun & Martel in which Alderson was also associated with. He became President of Oakland after his father in law purchased the team. In 1982 he hired Sandy to be the General Counsel.
But a President is not the general counsel nor is in charge of any one specific area. Those are handled by the Vice Presidents underneath them. He oversees the operation of the business. Though this isn’t about baseball, it serves as the basis for all companies to one extent to another because baseball is a business that goes way beyond the team on the field and thus the question again is, who handled the duties of the general counsel on a day to day basis?
From ehow.com:
The company president’s primary job responsibilities are to ensure that all lines of business within an organization are running efficiently and within the budget set forth by the CEO, board of directors and finance director. A company president generally works with mid- to senior-level managers to devise a strategic plan that will generate revenues, create new opportunities for business and help the company to remain competitive in the marketplace. Strong emphasis on cost management is a critical component to a company president’s success and the overall success of the company he or she represents. Oftentimes the company president will work closely and in direct alignment with the strategic mergers and acquisitions department to spot opportunities in the marketplace wherein the company may be in a position to acquire a struggling business or a competitor, creating a market share advantage over others.
Other responsibilities include overseeing a company’s investor relations department, shareholder and public communications, financial statements, analyst conference calls, creating company and performance objectives, evaluating high- or low-performing businesses and teams, appearing in news media to proactively represent the company, attending congressional and other legislative or public policy hearings, participating in special events for philanthropic purposes or to generate new business with clients and having a strong managerial presence of overseas operations.
- One thing I think we can agree about the above is that Jeff Wilpon doesn’t seem to have the credentials to take over this from his father.
I’ve already given you links describing Rigney as the teams consultant and color analyst on TV. The burden of proof is on you to back your claim, which I might add you have never done. All you did was state that he was at the 82 winter meetings and pulled off the Lansford trade. Do you mean to tell me you don’t know what the resposibities of a teams consultant. It’s exaclty what the word means CONSULT. Give his opinion
. Consultants do not have final say. They give their opinion. You can not be the srchitect of a team when you are a consultant that does color analsyt for TV. That would be like saying if Keith was the teams consutant he would be the man building the team. That’s ridiculous. John hart is the Texas Rangers consultant and works as an analyst for MLB network. is he the architect of the Rangers or Jon Daniels.
I’ll answer you dumb question one more time. It boggles my mind that you can’t figure this out.
“the question was what did Sandy Alderson mean when he said Rigney was involved in every player move”.He gave his input. Paul DePodesta and JP Ricciardi are involved in every decision. Staffs are involved in teams decisions. The GM and VP of baseball OPS has final say. He’s in charge. End of story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Rigney
In an 18-season managerial career, Rigney posted a 1239–1321 record (.484) in 2561 games. After that, he served as a front-office consultant and a radio and TV broadcaster for the Oakland Athletics in the 1980′s.
http://articles.latimes.com/1985-06-16/sports/sp-2825_1_bill-rigney
He carries a six-handicap on the golf course and the title of “Assistant to the President, Baseball Matters” with the Oakland A’s, an involved consultant to President Roy Eisenhardt and General Manager Sandy Alderson.
http://www.centerfieldmaz.com/2011/01/former-new-york-giants-player-manager.html
In the 1980’s he was a broadcaster for the Oakland A’s as well as a front office consultant. Rigney passed away in 2001 at age 83 in Walnut Creek, California.
#294 – Bill Rigney. Bill had a 26 year career in the Majors as both a player and a manager. As a player Bill played his whole career with the New York Giants. Bill would go on to Manage the Giants from 1956 to 1960. He then went on to manage the Angels from 1961 to 1969. Bill was fired from the Angels in early 1969 and went to San Fransico to join the Giants broadcast team. In 1970 Bill was in Minnesota and would take the Twins to the AL West Chamionship. We as replaced in 1972. Bill went onto to scout for the Padres and Angels in 1973 and 1974 before returning for one final managial stint with the Giants in 1976. In the 80′s Bill was a front office consultant and TV and radio announcer for the Oakland A’s. Bill passed away in 2001 at the ripe old age of 83.
Oh and yes Eisenhardt handled the marketing and legal affairs. He is credited with a brilliant marketing strategy that brough in huge crowds and was still their legal counsel. Look it up for yourself. I’ve done enough of that for you while you have done nothing but speculate.
http://www.sfgate.com/athletics/jenkins/article/Sandy-Alderson-does-what-has-to-be-done-2388259.php
He was being groomed for the position.
You are way to harsh on the GM. I’ve been a Met fan since 1962, I saw my first Mets game at the Polo Grounds in 1963! I live in Baltimore now & watching this years O ‘s and
Nats give me great hope for the Mets. Both the O’s & Nats have descent starting pitching & good bullpens. The Mets starting pitching this year has been OK; however the relief pitching is bad, horribly inconsistant. The Nationals & Orioles have built their teams thru their farm systems not big ticket free agents. The Mets have some really good young players in the minors. We all know ownership’s money problems during the off season would make it almost impossible resign Reyes so the GM was a little hamstrung. What the Mets need is good consistent relief pitching. This year a good bullpen with firemen instead of arsonists would have put the team over 500 & in the playoff hunt. I truly believe that both Wright & Dickey will get paid & Reyes will long term regret moving to Miami.
Correction: Gary L was hired in 1997
Fonzie,
Those links do no provide anything specific. To imply Bill Rigney was a broadcaster ingores his half-century in the game which both your links about him talk about. He was not a broadcaster during the decade in the eighties when Sandy was with the team. Also, by referring him to a broadcaster implies that Bill White, who was also a broadcaster, had no business being President of the National League.
http://www.historicbaseball.com/players/r/rigney_bill.html
Same with Eisenhardt. That article does not provide any information, especially any facts to to imply that with all the responsibilities that he had as President that he was also able to handle – on top of all that – the full time rigors of a general counsel which beforehand required a Vice President to be in charge of just that one operation.
Your own words makes for an argument that Alderson might not have have been the arhitect of the Oakland franchise:
“No one EVER said he had nothing to do with the player moves. What is sais and is fact is that he was not in charge of those moves. he was the CONSULTANT. HE CONSULTED. ”
This is the definitiion of a consultant: “someone who has influence over an individual, group, or organization, but who has no direct authority to implement change”.
At the least that now makes Anderson and Rigney a team since BOTH were executives. It also divides authority between influence and authority. Who was more involved as the influence and who was more involved in the authority?
Providing more generalities without substance is only opening up more questions than providing answers. By doing so, and that includes belittling me, only hurts the case you are making on this particular subject.
And this is so relevant to the point Petey is trying to make about Alderson being just a corporate reflection of the ownership. If Sandy was a real baseball person – not a front office business executive – he would not need to give us double talk. He certainly would not make himself appear inept by his conclusions about PPPA as Gary Cohen showed he was.
Joey suck it up like a man. Those links provide 10000000000 times more proof than you’ve provided. . A 65 year old man who was at the end of his baseball career who served as a consultant and the teams broadcaster did not build the team. He advised. You’d have to be an absolute moron to believe that.
You keep avoiding like the plague the proof to back up your claim. And I know the reason for it. It does not exist.
Now do us all a favor and shut the heck up about the 80′s A’s. The man responsible for those teams is the man now running the Mets and that’s an indisputable fact. All you’ve done is speculate. No facts. You’ve deserved to be belittled and it will only get worse the longer you insist to drag out this incorrect information.
Yes Suck it up!
Eisenhardt said he was counting on Rigney to bolster the team’s player development.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2209&dat=19821027&id=sqMrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=rvwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2503,7278997
http://newspaperarchive.com/tyrone-daily-herald/1982-10-21/page-6
Under reorganization
Eisenhardt plans to move in and assume some of the general manager’s duties which Martin also administered (You suggest Martin did Marketing!)
Rigney fits that mold perfectly since he is a former big league manager and currently is under contract to the California Angels as an advisor to president.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2245&dat=19821027&id=OzgzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ezIHAAAAIBAJ&pg=2375,6436716
Bill Rigney who in his long baseball career has served at every level of the game, Tuesday was named as an assistant to president Roy Eisenhardt of the Oakland A’s
In making the announcement, Eisenhardt said Rigney will go to work for the A’s immediatly and take part in the selection of a manager to replace Billy Martin
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/02/21/SP186011.DTL&ao=all
After the A’s won an American League pennant in 1988, then-A’s executive Sandy Alderson said, “When you talk about people who have contributed to our success, you have to single out Bill Rigney. His contributions have been enormous. He has been involved in every one of our player acquisitions since I came here in 1982. I’ve watched 600 or 700 games with Bill, and it’s been an education.”
Hi Metsie,
Thanks for adding on to my own research your additional sources of information backed up by factual evidence and words by those involved as proof that the points we are making is not made up from just idle speculation.
Key point made was this….
“Eisenhardt plans to move in and assume some of the general manager’s duties which Martin also administered ”
Martin handled all the Budget scouting, Player Dev, Trades and Evals….
When he left Sandy handled the Player Dev, scouting, and was the point man on trades but the Evals and Budget were made by Eisenhardt and Rigney.
Those Evals and Budget had a say in just about all those other departments. They gave Sandy the Nuts and Bolts but the design was not given to him yet he was too inexperienced yet.
And Rigney was basically his mentor and Sandy would pretty much do whatever Rigney said to do.
But if they admit that Joey then they lose 89 off Sandy’s “Track Record” and have nothing to use as thier justification for “Sandy built a winner and spent in the late 80′s”
Hi Metsie,
Sorry to see you become so very general with little detail and vague with your information.
Very little detail indeed. None after 1982 which is the period in which this subject is about. Same links tell the same story. 1982. Totally irrelevent.
You still haven’t come up with anything different. You keep showing the same information that isn’t the subject of the discussion. What Rigney did in 1982 is irrelevent since Sandy didn’t become GM until 1983. A point which has been repeated ad naseum. All Eisenhardt had to do was name Rigney GM and leave Alderson as the teams legal counsel. He did not do that. He named Sandy the GM and Rigney was a consultant and color analyst in TV. He was 65 years old. If Haas and Eisenhardt wanted Rigney to be the architect then he would’ve named him the GM and either left Sandy as legal counsel or made him Rigney’s assistant. He did not do that.
Still running from the key points and have been for months….
1st Point – “Eisenhardt plans to move in and assume some of the general manager’s duties which Martin also administered ”
Which duties did Martin have that he took over?
PLAYER EVALUATIONS!
2nd Point – “Eisenhardt said Rigney will go to work for the A’s immediatly and take part in the selection of a manager to replace Billy Martin”
Why didn’t Sandy do that if he was calling the shots? He was named GM of all the parts Eisenhardt didn’t take over from Martin so why wasn’t he IN CHARGE of finding the next Manager?
Run from it all you want I’m done!
Until you come up with some proof that Martin ran Public Relations and thats all Eisenhardt took over which you seem to suggest over and over again with little to no proof of anything you have said to date!
Still running from the key points and have been for months….
1st Point – “Eisenhardt plans to move in and assume some of the general manager’s duties which Martin also administered ”
That was 1982. Sandy became GM in 1983
Which duties did Martin have that he took over? GM but in 1982. Sandy took over in 1983
PLAYER EVALUATIONS!
2nd Point – “Eisenhardt said Rigney will go to work for the A’s immediatly and take part in the selection of a manager to replace Billy Martin”
That was in 1982. Sandy became GM in ———————————– 1 9 8 3!
“Why didn’t Sandy do that if he was calling the shots? He was named GM of all the parts Eisenhardt didn’t take over from Martin so why wasn’t he IN CHARGE of finding the next Manager”
I’ll say it again becase Sandy wasn’t the GM in 1982. He was named GM in 1983.
“Run from it all you want I’m done!
Until you come up with some proof that Martin ran Public Relations and thats all Eisenhardt took over which you seem to suggest over and over again with little to no proof of anything you have said to date”.
I didn’t say that but it’s obvious Sir Twistalot is back in form after a day away. Never ever said Martin ran PR and never said that’s all Eisenhardt took over so there is no reason for me to run from a point I never made.
So I guess they had no GM in 82 then is that what you are hanging your hat on?
And this after you tried to use the Martin Firing as proof Sandy was in charge at the time….
When you make up your mind let us all know so we don’t keep on just repeating the same thing over and ovver while you come up with new line of Bull to offset OUR fatcs which you call bull on….
Yeah they had a GM in 82. Martin. He was fired after the season or there abouts and Sandy was the one to inform him of his dimissal. Eisenhardt and Rigney took over the GM duties until they hired Sandy as GM in 1983. So Rigney was the interim GM, he represented the A’s at the Winter Meetings. You are the one who posted that article awhile back that said Sandy was the one who let Martin go because Eisenhardt or Haas didn;t have the heart to do so. I don’t have to make up my mind. It’s already been made up. Sandy was the one who put forth a philosophy in how they go about acquiring players and how they’re going to scout them and develope them. His own collegues, superiors(Owner), subordinates and other GM’s around the sport are the ones that credit him for being the architect of that team as well as his innovation. Out of you two guys utter dislike for the man you try and credit a guy who consulted the man who was 65 years old at the twilight of his baseball career and also the teams broadcaster for buildng that team. He was a part of that team but he wasn’t the one in charge once Sandy was named GM. If he was then he would’ve been named GM and Sandy wouldn’t have.
“Sandy was the one who put forth a philosophy in how they go about acquiring players”
Funny Sandy says otherwise says it was Rigney
All your quote crediting him are about Post 1991 A’s The Quotes are after 1991! Thats when Rigney was gone!
So you keep believing Sandy while in school was the architect and believe in Santa as well!
How sad is it that you must fight so hard to make 1989 a Sandy success and for no other reason than thats the ONLY success he has ever really had!
And what research are you talking about? What factual evidence? You have not provided any evidence stating Rigney was the architect of that team. None! It’s all speculation and lies. If you call that evidence then you’re just as I thought. Simple minded. Keep trying though. I’, waiting for 7 months for this factual evidence. Don’t show me anything pertaining to 1982. 83-97. Sorry but a consultant who’s a special assistant and also the teams broadcaster is not a guy who builds a team. He was involved but not the one with the vision and not the one who thought outside the box. He would’ve been name the GM if that were the case. You’ve still come up short.
Sandy Alderson said, “When you talk about people who have contributed to our success, you have to single out Bill Rigney. His contributions have been enormous. He has been involved in every one of our player acquisitions since I came here in 1982. I’ve watched 600 or 700 games with Bill, and it’s been an education.”
IT WAS AN EDUCATION TO SANDY!
Meaning he didn’t know HOW to do the things Rigney did for them!
He said he contributed. He didn’t say he was the one who made the decisions. That’s they key point your missing. He wasn’t the one in charge. Sandy was. I’m sure Frank Cashen would say the same thing about Joe McIlvaine, Al harazin. Lou Gorman. They contributed. Frank made the decisions.
HE SAID HE TAUGHT HIM!
How can you be an Architect when your still in school?
Hi Metsie,
I always took that comment from Sandy as a co-worker acknowledging Rigney for doing a great job. He was not referring to Rigney’s talent as a broadcaster but to his involvement in EVERY player decision and thus by calling his experience with Rigney an “education” it does come across as a pupil thanking his teacher. It actually sounds like the same praise Billy Beane often gives Sandy Alderson. And with Sandy admitting he came onto the job cold, who better than a Bill Rigney-type could he ask for about the insides of the game?
That does give credence to the notion that Sandy Alderson’s settling into the job was a progression in learning and not one who by analyzing advanced statistical information was suddenly on top of making player decisions.
BTW – no matter the criticism many of us have thrown at Sandy, his tribute to Rigney does show a touch of class and respect.
Yes Rigney was a huge help to Sandy in the beginning. He leant on Rigney for advice. That’s what his job was as speical assistant and consultant. He consulted, advised. But make no mistake about it. Sandy evaluated the players performances through statistical analysis. I don’t know why that irks you but that is the case. It’s also the case for most teams now.
Jon Daniels, Billy Beane, Jed Hoyer, Ben Cherington, Dan O’Dowd, Mark Shapiro, Josh Burns, Jerry DiPoto( Ex Met), Brian Cashman, Josh Byrnes, John Mozeliak, Theo Epstein, Neil Huntington, Walt Jocketty, Andrew Friedman, Kevin Towers are all GM’s that rely heavily on advanced statistical analysis.
The Mets are not the only team and the Mets also now employ more scouts than at any other time in franchise history which should tell you that they are a team that relies on both scouting and stat analyzing so you need to do more research about these guys and about your own team. You don’t even know how they scouted and evaluated the draftpicks they made. Brandon Nimmo was an old school draft pick based on scouting his tools across the board. he had no highschool team and no stats to analyze. The draft pick was based solely on what the scouts saw in him. Do your homework.
Hi Fonzie,
I remember the kind words I got from many last June who said to just ignore you so I am taking their advice, along with the owner of this website citing you to get out of the gutter. So If you are looking for a personal response back, you won’t get it from me. I will just respond to the question at hand.
I beieve you have made the argument about Sandy Alderson for myself and others with your explanations. And you are right – “The man responsible for those teams is the man now running the Mets and that’s an indisputable fact”. I just wish it wasn’t so.