11
2012
MMO Fair or Foul: Time To Trade Johan Santana
An article by 
Over at Mets360, Dave Groveman plays Devil’s advocate and proposes why now is the time to trade Johan Santana. I have my own thoughts on that, but first consider this:
So… perhaps the Mets should still be looking towards this season with an eye towards winning in 2013-2014. While Johan Santana has been resurgent, it’s not exactly a given that he’s going to stay this way for long after the All-Star break, let alone into his final season. Add to this the large chunk of change he’s owed and it’s not such a given that the Mets consider him part of their future. Instead, the Mets could trade Santana to a team looking for pitching who might not be afraid of the price tag.
I’m pretty sure the Yankees still fall into this category. In fact, Santana’s short-ish length to the contract makes him a cheaper option within their spectrum of money. Johan would elevate the Yankees firmly above the Rays, Blue Jays, Orioles and Red Sox for 2012 and would give the Yankees a rotation to rival the Texas Rangers.
Who might the Yankees offer to tempt the Mets into making this deal that would basically invite Flushing to riot? Well… I think that the Yankees would need to offer up Austin Romine and a mid-tier pitcher for the Alderson team to fathom this. The Mets did draft a bunch of catchers and Cam Maron is coming on strong in Savannah, but the Mets don’t exactly have a plethora of catchers in the system who are close to making an impact. The Yankees would still have Gary Sanchez. Romine has been hurt most of the year but he’ll return later this month. Add to Romine a mediocre MLB ready prospect like David Phelps and the Mets have enough to make eating crow palatable.
While the Mets are at it, we could also look to trade Daniel Murphy, Justin Turner and Andres Torres for prospects who might have higher ceilings than these players with more common skill sets.
Here’s the thing… I’m very skeptical about how this front office will approach this deadline. There’s a part of me that genuinely believes they’d much rather be sellers than buyers even with the Mets right in the thick of things.
Maybe I’m wrong, but so far all they’ve done is some sniffing around and feeding reporters the occasional quote suggesting that they are busy combing the market for help.
I’m an actions speak louder than words kind of guy, especially with this group who likes to keep their cards close to the vest.
On Sunday, the Mets GM told GKR that he will not make a trade unless he believed it would make a significant impact on the team and that he will not make a trade just to make an incremental improvement.
The problem with that is that impact players cost both money and quality prospects. I don’t see that happening, which leaves one to believe that the only possible outcome is no trade at all.
But I don’t know, maybe his idea of impact is the .215 batting Ramon Hernandez replacing a .165 hitting Mike Nickeas. That’s 50 points higher in batting.
As for trading Johan Santana in a season in which he gave the Mets fan base their greatest moment since the 1986 World Series? That’s a bad idea.
The Mets blogosphere might explode and it will certainly create an even bigger divide between the pro and anti Alderson factions of the fan base. Heck it may even create a divide among the players as well. It’s no secret what Dickey thought of the front office when they traded Beltran last July. Can you imagine what Dickey would say now with the Mets half a game out of the wild card?
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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Sorry, no disrespect to the author at the other site but I stopped reading pretty early on.
There are a few things people need to consider here
A) Johan Santana in a Mets uniform means more to the Mets franchise than any B level prospects they may get.
They aren’t going to get rich off of Santana being dealt. He’s a NL pitcher now, and he’s aging and coming off surgery. Other teams aren’t dumb. You aren’t getting a haul for Santana.
B) I don’t know what is going on with the author but for me, this is the most fun I’ve had as a fan since the 99 season. Why would you want to trade away a guy who basically puts a competitive spirit into the team?
What are you going to get from any team that makes it worth saying “half game out? Lets tear it down.”
You can’t do that. Before anybody says Beltran, it was different. There isn’t a favorite in the NL, whether we want to admit it or not, the Cards got into the playoffs last year because of an epic collapse by Atlanta. You gotta know when to hold em and know when to fold em. The Mets couldn’t bank on that scenario happening.
Right now, Cincy, Atlanta, SF, NYM, STL, AZ, MIA, MIL are all legitimate playoff contenders and they aren’t even leading their divisions. So throw in Wash, Pit, Lad and you have to throw in Philly for the next 2 weeks.
You don’t trade Johan Santana when you have a chance to turn your fan base around. When you have a chance to prove to the fans you’re in it for now AND for the future.
This is a critical time for the Mets. This is why I feel they must re-sign both Dickey and Wright.
If they traded Johan for a couple of B level specs, you might as well board up Citi Field, trade Wright, trade Dickey and put a sign up that says “Grand Re-Opening: 2016″
Agree on all Jessep. If the Mets Administration gives up on this year, close it up.
FOR ANY OF YOU WITH ANY SORT OF MEMORY, I’M ABOUT TO SHOCK U AS I’VE BEEN A “TRADE SANTANA” GUY FOR YEARS UP UNTIL NOW; HOWEVER FOR ALL THE REASONS JESSEP STATES AND ADDING THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE NEW PLAYOFF WILDCARD RULES, AS LONG AS WE’RE LEGITIMATELY AMONG THE WILDCARD FRONTRUNNERS FACING THAT “SUDDEN DEATH” 1 “PLAY IN” GAME I HAVE TO CAUTION AGAINST DEALING JOHAN SIMPLY BECAUSE AS I EVALUATE OUR CURRENT LIST OF LIKELY OPONENTS IN THAT SINGLE ELIMINATION GAME, HAVING 2 OF 5 “ACES” ALONG WITH ONE OF THEM HAVING THE FLEXIBILITY OF BEING EFFECTIVE ON SUDDEN SHORT REST(DICKEY) I’D HAVE TO CONSIDER THE METS AS PRESENTLY CONSTITUTED WITH BOTH JOHAN & RA AS HAVING THE EDGE AGAINST ALL BUT POSSIBLY SAN FRANCISCO WITH THEIR STRONG STAFF(1-5).
UNLESS NYY BOWLS US OVER WITH ONE OF THEIR TOP CATCHING PROSPECTS + EITHER BETANCES OR THE BANUELOS, THE OTHER TEMPORARILY DISAPPOINTING PITCHING PROSPECT.
IN ADDITION AFTER PERSONALLY REVIEWING THE CLOSERS WHOSE NAMES ARE PROMINENTLY ADORNING MOST RUMORS TO NYM, STREET, K-ROD, LIDGE, & BALFOUR, I’VE CHANGED MY VOTE FROM K-ROD TO BALFOUR, IF THE PRICE ISN’T A BLUECHIPPER BASED UPON HIS OUTSTANDING BAA OF .1.80 & WHIP OF 1.05 DESPITE HIS 2 BSVSAS HE’S PROFICIENT AT MAINTAINING MINIMUM BASE TRAFFIC.
IN LIEU OF A BLUECHIPPER, I SEE OUR ABUNDANCE OF CAPABLE MID-INFIELDERS ie MURPHY,TURNER,QUINTANILLA AS OUT STRONGEST TRADE OPTIONS FOR THE RIGHT RETURN OF BULLPEN OR RHH BOTH OF WHICH I DESIRE MORE GREATLY THAN HERNANDEZ, A NICE TO ADD NOT A MUST ADD!
There is about a 5% chance of trading Santana this month, IMO. I’m giving it even a 5% chance b/c nothing is impossible.
The Yankees managed to close out the first half with the best record in baseball. That’s with their questionable rotation outside of CC coming into the season. I’m reading CC will be back shortly. Don’t know about Pettitte. Cashman has been quoted as saying they plan to fill in the rotation from within. Doesn’t mean they won’t be looking for help this trade deadline though. Just don’t see them looking at Santana – especially since they want to reduce payroll.
And if not the Yankees, who else would take on Santana right now?
Besides, if we want to keep on competing, a rotation with Santana looks a lot better than one without rest of this season.
Sorry, but I just don’t see this happening at all.
No, you can’t trade him. Even without the no hitter, he’s one the reasons to get excited about this team.
It’s not like the Beltran situation where he’ll be gone after the season and you get nothing.
“…and feeding reporters the occasional quote suggesting that their combing the market for help.”
Well I will tell you when you decide to find something via combing, the only thing you are likely find is HEAD LICE!
Which will make us all scratch our heads!
They don’t need a comb what they need is a cannon to target the one guy they are sure is a plus. Everyone assumes you need to give away two top prospects to get those guys but you can’t let past deals serve as the baseline because you no longer get the comp picks you used to if a guy goes FA at the end of the year!
And we could still be sellers to a degree, But it won’t be Sanatan that gets sold.
Young is in the same position Beltran was in this time last year. Coming off injury and doing better than anyone thought he should.
You won’t get a Wheeler for Young but you might just get two Bullpen arms without the need to give away any of our prospects.
We have a few guys we could package to get a good player that are not prospects as well!
Quintanilla, Cedeno are both quite purgable without any impact to us.
Santana would be a big hit to the team Psyche and after the GM gave up on last season it would send a pretty bad message to this team of fighters…
“It doesn’t matter how hard you fight. Unless you have run away with the division by July you aren’t good enough and we will sell you for 4 years from now!”
I am very disturbed by some of this articles out there, but you have to wonder why those articles are being written.. We have a small market GM who is installing his beliefs into almost everyone.. The only reason why the author (i didn’t even read the crap he wrote) is because he wants to save money, but then again, exactly for what? so we can have an even smaller payroll?? cuz we sure as hell ain’t going out there to bid for high price good players out there in the market.. We’d still be looking to shop at “everything 99 Cent or less” store… So i am not sure the point of trying to rid ourselves of high salary of santana.. the money will not be use..
“i didn’t even read the crap he wrote”
Some people would do that before offering a strong and vitriolic opinion on the piece, but hey, when has sense been an obstacle to you?
That’s a ridiculous post. I say FOUL! No-Han is going Nowhere! By the way, anybody here concerned with Collins giving Johan a weeks rest again when Santana keeps saying his ankle is fine? All I keep thinking about is his game against the Yankees.
this has to be a hell of a long shot. way too many landmines.
but bottom line, still hard to see some team giving up a prime prospect + taking on the salary, which is really the only way you could possibly see it making sense.
but given that the mets just lost a SP, and you can never have enough, it is much more likely they keep him now. Off season? could be different story of course.
The question is, if he is, will some of the sabergooner and sandy lovers cry foul?? i am sure they’ll say it was a business desicion yada yada…. the man can do no wrong!
No they wil simply re-reverse themselves and go back to what they were saying last year about hoping Santana pitches well enough to get traded for more kids which was what they originally had planned before the Phillies sucked and moved us up into the Playoff game again!
Lol, yes metsie… They have it all figure out.. it’s amazing the things we have to put up with this GM and his followers…
They have it all figure out….
Yeah THIS week…
Next week they will figure something else…
They have no convictions which really shows they have no real belief in what they say…
They just forget whatever they thought the last time they spoke and say whatever they want that seems to sound good to them at that point in time and space…
And when the time and space changes so does thier philosophy and opinion!
I remember when Trading and shedding Payroll that wasn’t worth having was the Mantra of the day…
When Risk of Injury was more important than what they did when they were NOT hurt!
When the Minors were a barren wasteland and anyone worth a damn needed to be traded to restock them.
When having 46 wins was OUT OF IT, Time to hang up the gloves and sell off…
Funny how 5 games less in the loss column compared to a year that we started off 5-13 because the Phillies didn’t suck then is all it takes to go from scrub to Playoff contender and keep everyone, purge the minors of all your best prospects to get Upton or Street because that team that was 4 or 5 years away and needed a ton of kids to rebuild managed to get ONLY ONE using thier ideas and yet still appear to be close enough to a playoff to be a buyer!
I go back and post links to what I said last year…
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/08/mmo-fan-shot-believing-and-quitting-make-strange-bedfellows.html
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/09/building-a-contender-how-far-away-are-we.html
A nice comparison of Us vs the Phillies
and finally
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/09/mmo-fan-shot-its-not-winning-or-losing-it%e2%80%99s-how-you-play-the-game.html
This one shows you just how important Pitching is to any team even ones you think are not good enough to win with 46 wins in July.
Funny how we were the ones who were saying there was no need for drastic rebuilding, We were the ones saying we had plenty of kids who could play in the MLB and be good, We were the ones who said this team had changed by the time June and July has hit last year and worth commending by getting them some help in the Pitching department.
And funny how now WE are the debbie downers and the doomers and gloomers from last year are all accusing us of being the downers.
Yet we never once said the slate needed wiping or this team had no chance!
And whats worse is in the end if they make the playoffs or even win a WS, the same guys will try to pin it all on the great work Sandy did even if not a single player he brings in hads anything to do with it!
The Hypocracy is exposed…
As I said in one of the pieces above…the last thing I want to see happen is the plan of a Quitter being implemented.
I’m not quitting on the season and I wouldn’t say trading Santana or Young would be that if we got the right pitcher back in return.
As long as the trade is a good one I’m down with it but these guys who were so worried about a barren MiL system all want to trade the entire farm for Huston Street and BJ Upton!
So what happened to change thier minds on the importance of having a good MiL system?
Fantasy Baseball GMs is what this is Alex…all it ever was.
Alex, what are you talking about? You didn’t even read the post, by your own admission.
Santana isn’t going anywhere. No need to comment on what ‘sabergooner and sandy lovers’ are going to do. What team do you think will actually take on Santana? Are you really worried this is going to happen?
These kind of pieces are nothing more than AS week fill ins, IMO. Need to talk about something before baseball resumes on Friday for the Mets.
Again, this was a topic of discussion during the offseason, and most people did not even know whether santana was going to pitch during the season or maybe up until June… Guess what? He started from day one and has beem pretty good… Now, the Same people who were basically writing him off (Sabergooners & Sandy Lovers) and hoping he’d do good JUST to be traded are the same one who are saying no, no… Talk to me in a year.. Right, because the mets are overachieving right? Now is not the time right?? SMH..
To me, the whole point is about saving MORE MONEY just so the wilpons can pay off their debt. No Money we save will be used to acquire good players to make the team better..
With regard to all the fans who were non-believers and fully behind Alderson’s rebuild mode, Alex is right.
Are you pretending their wasn’t a majority who hoped Johan would prove healthy so he could be traded? I can dig up 50 links to support that if you like.
Alex is also right about reinvesting any money saved. It didnt happen with trading Beltran and Krod. It didnt happen when they let Reyes go, and it wouldn’t happen even if they did trade Johan which I doubt would happen anyway.
Some of you here are just a bunch of ball-breakers and love to attack all his opinions good or bad.
Can’t speak for anyone else but I can tell you what I thought. No matter how many games Santana managed to pitch this first half, no matter how good he was IMO, there was no shot in hell of moving that contract this July. Period.
That and I don’t see anyone yet on this thread suggestion it either.
Maybe we should have an MMO Revisited feature that would take some of the hottest debates we had 6 Months ago and see who said what then and how it aligns with what they say now!
A lot of people would go quiet if that were ever to happen!
The rebuilders have really got about two dozen eggs on thier faces right now.
You do realize you can rebuild and remain competitive right?
You seem to think it’s win 60 games or win 95 games.
The Mets are trying to rebuild, they just aren’t doing it like the Oakland A’s do it which is what many people were saying.
If the Mets weren’t rebuilding they would be involved in high priced talent, they’d consider trading some of their top young talent for now talent.
They are doing both (what a concept) focusing on the future while trying to remain competitive.
Would we be rebuilding if we sent awa who everyone suggested for BJ?
Me and you both thought that move was wrong so not accusing you of saying that…
Just pointing out that a lot of people who wanted to rebuild are on board with trading a ton of kids for flavor of the day…
My point was that rebuilding wasn’t really needed to get where we are and MANY thought it had to be done because we were just that bad!
Rebuilding had very little to do with anything that is happening today.
Nothing from the K-Rod trades or Beltran trade has done a thing for today’s record. Maybe the Beltran trade helps next year…
We will see.
The whole point to insist on the rebuld and broom was because we were not going to be competitive for 4 or 5 years. Well has it been that long?
If not than anyone who thought that was in error.
And Note I’m not accusing anyone (including you) by name here…But anyone who feels the shoe fits should wear it!
Most will deny it fits but I’m sure past quotes from some would tell the contrary thats all I’m saying.
Funny how you were the one saying we were gonna suck for 4 or 5 years because we purged 3 allstars, and now you’re taking bows cause the rebuilding prcess is moving along faster than most anticipated. Either way you would take bows and say see I told ya. If they sucked for 5 years you would say see I told ya and if we turned it around in 1 year you would say see I told ya. You said all winter long he we were gonna suck because we purged 3 allstars, actually 1 allstar and now you’re patting yourself on the back to say you knew we were good enough all along. Amazing!
And where would we be if K-Rod was closing out games and Beltran was hitting all his HRs for us?
You forget that I made those comments based on the team we COULD have had if we kept the All Stars not just making the playoffs or not!
Funny what are one of our needs right now?
Bullpen arm and RH Power Bat!
Well K-Rod and Beltran both fit those needs don’t they?
SO did letting them go make us better or worse?
Would we have those holes now if we kept them?
NO!
We would lead the division right now and what would it have cost us? A grand total of 30 Mil!
You traded Wilpon having STEAK for the chance to lead the division!
I hope they decide to share their steak with you!
Otherwise you lost on the deal!
All we had to do was Keep K-Rod and then re-sign Beltran in the offseason!
Just like the Phillies did with Cliff Lee!
And where would we be if K-Rod was closing out games and Beltran was hitting all his HRs for us?
I don’t know where we’d be but what I do know is we had those guys together since 2009 and never once did we finish above 500. What’s the difference if K-Rod blows a save and Fatcisco blows a save? The difference is it only cost 6 million for a highwire act closer as opposed to 17.5 million it would’ve cost to keep K-Rod and his highwire act. Blame Omar for that ridiculous option he gave K-Rod as being why he’s not a Met anymore.
You forget that I made those comments based on the team we COULD have had if we kept the All Stars not just making the playoffs or not!
Read above. We had all 3 of those allstars (1 allstar now) since 2009 and we played sub 500 baseball.
Funny what are one of our needs right now?
We need a reliever a starter a catcher and a real 2B.
Bullpen arm and RH Power Bat!
Well K-Rod and Beltran both fit those needs don’t they?
I’d love to haveBeltran back but he was not coming back despite what you believe. He’s actually happy where he is. Plus we have an untradeable contract in the form of Jason Bay that made it impossible to keep another high priced aging OF on the team when we have young players to develope.
I’d rather do better than bringing K-Rod back, he’s been mediocre at best this year. And again he would’ve been paid more than Mariano to pitch mediocre.
SO did letting them go make us better or worse?
Would we have those holes now if we kept them?
NO!
I’d say letting them go has made us better since we have a better record without them and we never finished above 500 with them as teammates. Beltran wouldn’t have those same numbers if he was still here, he’s playing in a much better hitters park against a much weaker division against much weaker pitching.
Yes we’d still have a hole in the bullpen. You seem to forget the bullpen still blew 17 7th inning or later leads with him on the team and if we kept him and his 17.5 million dollar contract for this season we wouldn’t have been able to add any other help at all, so we’d have bigger problem sin the pen.
We would lead the division right now and what would it have cost us? A grand total of 30 Mil!
You traded Wilpon having STEAK for the chance to lead the division!
I hope they decide to share their steak with you!
Otherwise you lost on the deal!
Geez only 30 million, is that all? Yeah I’m sure a team that lost 70 million last year and 50 million in 2010 with a billion dollar lawsuit hanging over their head would have no problem pulling 30 million out of their asses for 2 players they hadn’t won with since they became teammates.
I didn’t trade anything. Whether or not the Wilpons eat steak or spaghettio’s means nothing to me. No reason for me to believe we would be leading the division with those 2 players cause we have no idea how those 2 players would perform if they were still here. Their history as teammates prove otherwise. You could say without K-Rod, Beltran, Reyes and Pagan the clubhouse has a much better atmosphere. They all claim this years group is the closest knit group either of them have ever been around. It’s called addition by subtraction
All we had to do was Keep K-Rod and then re-sign Beltran in the offseason!
Just like the Phillies did with Cliff Lee.
Yeah you would pay a mediocre reliever 17.5 million wouldn’t you? If Beltran would’ve come back I’d be all for it but everybody with a pulse new he wasn’t coming back unless we overpaid him and since we couldn’t because we already a wasted 16 million in LF and the team needed to keep their payroll down it was time to see if Duda is a major leaguer or not.
Point is you said this team was going to suck this year without those 3 allstars and now you’re eating crow with a dozen eggs on your face and you’re trying to take bows like you knew it all along.
On the other hand I’ve said all winter that the team needed to move in a different direction since we were getting nowhere staying status-quo with the same core. I was in full support of letting Reyes go. I was in full support of the Wheeler trade, despite being one of Beltrans biggest fans. I couldn’t wait to get K-Rod off of this team, I never wante him in the 1st place. And last but not least Pagan was another guy I felt could not be brought back with his terrible CF defense, mental lapses in the field and on the base paths and he was also a malcontent in the clubhouse last year. Addition by subtraction.
“And where would we be if K-Rod was closing out games and Beltran was hitting all his HRs for us?
I don’t know where we’d be ”
Thats tells the story quite well doesn’t it?
You can go on about how much you wanted to blow up the team after 2008 after missing the playoffs by ONE GAME all you want. NO ONE is with you on that thought!
And it really doesn’t matter what happened back then because the truth is it wasn’t those guys who coast us the season it was all the guys around them that failed and a distinct lack of starting pitching that no longer exists!
SO you want to GM the 2011/2012 team like it’s still 2008 you go right ahead!
Only a fool would let the situation 3 years ago influence the events and performance evaluations of 2011 and 2012!
Point remains you have two big holes on this roster then EVERYONE AGREES exist!
RH Power and Bullpen Pitching!
And who could have filled them?
K-Rod and Beltran!
Guys you said were worthless and were WRONG about!
Cause as you said….YOU DON’T KNOW!
Which means your opinion is sort of worthless!
The rest if us DID KNOW!
And know NOW that having those guys would be better right now for us, the team the standings, and the playoffs than we are in currently looking for guy to replace the ones we HAD!
Now here comes the real Metsie. Show me where I said K-Rod and Beltran were worthless. This is why a debate with you is like a debate with a 4 year old. You have to make shit up when your wrongt. It’s pointless to continue this since you can’t debate like an adult. You just wanna be confrontational for the sake of being confrontational and you can’t even go more than 1 post before you start putting words in peoples mouths. Maybe if the last moron of a GM didn’t give K-Rod a DUMB easy attainable option, he’d still be a Met and maybe if he didn’t go out and sign Jason Bay and put the franchise in the red for 120 million million the last 2 years with his idiotic signings we’s still be able to afford all 3 of those allstars. Bottomline is we lost with them and we’re winning without them and we couldn’t afford to keep them thanks to the Almighty Omar the chokemaker.7 years after Omars first draft and we’re still looking to fill the pen through trades and free agency. Get lost fool.
And I quote…
“what I do know is we had those guys together since 2009 and never once did we finish above 500″
Yep they must be the reason for that making them worthless.
Then go onto talk about Wilpon’s money needing to be saved!
I get it your Jeff Wilpon who we all know is just an EXPERT in everything baseball!
U FORGOT THE KEY QUESTION OF …WHERE WOULD WE BE IF JUDGE HAD RULED IN FAVOR OF PICARD?
METSIE, NEVER LOSE SIGHT OF THE REAL REASON K-ROD & BELTRAN WERE UNSUSTAINABLE. FINANCIAL DEMANDS!
Well honestly even if he had 62 the Mets themselves would still be here, perhaps the Wilpons would not. But there would be a risk that some other NEW owner wanted to move them.
They wouldn’t do it if attendance was up and lets be honest if we were leading the division right now and hadn’t done the selloff Attendance might be higher at this point in time.
“Now, the Same people who were basically writing him off (Sabergooners & Sandy Lovers) and hoping he’d do good JUST to be traded are the same one who are saying no, no… Talk to me in a year.. Right, because the mets are overachieving right? Now is not the time right?? SMH..”
Says the guy who wrote off the Mets (Marlins for WS Champs LOL) and rode David Wright’s jock the ENTIRE winter and wanted him dealt for a guy in our division who prior to this season NEVER played 3rd base. Who are you to talk?
same guy who was predicting 100 losses for the Mets?
Howard Megdal was the first person I ever saw predict 100 losses and we went at it pretty good on Twitter over the winter after he said it. The melee was then joined in by several other notables backing him and I fought the battle solo. But I put up a good fight for our boys who I predicted would win the wild card inour 2012 Predictions.
As for Alex, maybe he did predict 100 losses, but if I were you I’d be calling out the people with soapboxes before calling out a fan who wears his passion on his sleeve.
I also wish people would stop jumping down his throat whenever he has something to say. We express all opinions here and his is just as valuable as anybody else’s.
I’ve seen him exhibit great restraint this season after I asked him to chill out or else over the winter, and now will ask his detractors to do the same. If you have no respect for what he has to say than move on rather than lead him into a discussion that will only turn into a flame war.
I gave Bayonne the same warning, but he chose to ignore it despite several chances. So now he’s on moderation. But Alex has done a 180′, so lets see the same effort from everyone else.
I guess you might have to describe restraint, Joe. I don’t think calling passionate Met fans sabergooners and Sandy lovers is great restraint.
I understand srt, and maybe one day we’ll stop seeing the Sandy-lover and Omar-lover comments altogether.
But when I consider that he stopped referring to people using words that started with “P”, “C”, “D” and “M” sabergeeks and sandy lovers is a move in the right direction.
Hopefully there will be even more improvement.
As you know from other Mets sites, profanity is quite okay and part of the norm, but I do make it known it’s not part of the norm here. Mostly because I know kids view this site and I want a site that parents dont have to worry about their kids frequenting.
I hope that makes some sense to you and I explained it well.
Two months ago, I did an interview for a Rutgers student for his project and he asked me what the most difficult part of running this site was. I told him it was taking two groups of fans from opposite sides of the spectrum and having them interact without tearing each other apart.
Most sites have their own little niche and they all coexist peacefully even when they disagree. MMO is different because both sides have a voice and depending on who the writer is and what he or she writes about they will be hammered by one side or the other and accused of having an agenda.
That’s why anyone who asks to write here I have to let them know up front that they need a thick skin or don’t bother and find another site to write for.
Fair enough, Joe.
Love the contents here at MMO and enjoy reading the debates they produce. Lots of intelligent posters who come here often.
Just don’t understand why sometimes it has to lead into personal attacks, name calling and the like.
first of all SRT, you don’t know the history of some of us here in MMO. Guys like donal and jesseP and a few others have always baited us into cussin etc, which is not acceptable i understand, whether we have been baited or not it is not acceptable to curse. I have as a request from Joe D changed my ways, i am in no way that person in real life, but is hard to ignore some of these people sometimes when they constantly instigating etc, i do love these mets, been doing it my whole life, as i said, been a fan since a lot of you’s were even a thought, the difference between me and some others is, if i am wrong, i accept i was wrong, take it like a man, and move on, YES i predicted the mets to lose 93 games (69-93) and you can go back and look it up, however, i did say also that this team will play hard and win ball games DESPITE the sabotage of the GM, somehow the mets are winning games and in the hunt, they’re making me eat my words, and hey, so be it. but i have not seen a single person point out how 100 % right i was about sandy’s sabotage… What i meant was he did nothing to help this ballclub, and i was right, because what are in dire need right now? bullpen help; on the sabergooners and sandy lovers, maybe i do admit that’s a bit out of line, yet, all over the place you see SABERGEEKS, which to me is more offensive, i don’t like to call anyone geek, hell, i work with comp for the majority part of my career so, no sense in that word, most of you love sandy alderson, don’t understand why any of u will complain about this, one thing i will say, whether we like the GM or not, we are all mets fans, and at the end of the day, we will be, we will have certain disagreements along the way, but we should try to do it in a matter that is not offensive, throughout my bloggin days i’ve had disagreement with many great knowledgeable people, but we don’t tend to cursing out if we do, me and maniac used to disagree all the time, only thing we agree on was DW being UNCLUTCH, yet, you guys see how well we get along, i am at fault as some of you are. let’s try to keep this place the bestMETS BLOG there is out there, we all love the team and that’s what should count. i apologize for the longest of the comment, but i needed to clarify some things.
Ohh, and one thing about me, if i am wrong or happen to offend someone and was uncalled for, i do apologize most of the times..
Let’s go METS!!!!!!
Alex, I believe I do have a fair idea of the history of some posters here. I’ve been reading MMO for a long while now. Didn’t really start posting often though until a couple of years ago.
I don’t mind the cursing and stuff. That seems to be the norm across baseball blogs, especially from passionate Met fans. It’s the cursing directed at some posters, name calling, etc. that kind of ruins the debates going back and forth. My original comment to you was really not meant to ‘call you out’ but asking where you were coming from giving the fact that you said you didn’t read the article and just assumed it was about the masses wanting to trade Santana.
No need to apologize to me as I don’t believe you’ve ever offended me.
As to the Mets…..you weren’t the only one predicting the Mets would win less than 70 games. I had them around 74/75 myself. We had a great first half. I still think we’ll fall a little bit short and with Gee down now, it’s not looking good at the moment.
I’m on the bandwagon though and still think we have a shot at post season. We need some help though and here’s hoping this FO does something about that. Don’t want to mortgage the future for it but I don’t think that’s necessary either. Can’t stand pat though especially in the BP. We’re over .500 despite that god-awful BP the first 2 months.
Hi srt. I feel the same way as you do and before the season I expected about 75 wins. It’s been a great season for me so far and with the no-hitter, and the performances by Dickey and Wright so far, its made for a very fun season for me.
Now I find myself believing we have a real shot at winning one of those wild cards. But the bad news on Gee worries me. Not only was he pitching well but he was also giving the team plenty of quality innings from the number five spot. I don’t know how we are going to replace that. It wont be easy. But I remain cautiously optimistic.
LGM
SRT, like i said, i know you were not calling me out or anything, but i think we get baited a lot of the times into being the aggressors here, just the other day when wright had that clutch hit some guy right away started calling me and bayonne out.. just as many of us here we are very passionate mets fans, but just as we can take insults etc, some posters need to do the same and take it when we fight back, instead, they pretend to be offended and go to joe D etc looking for a solution, there’s a lot of people here that i don’t like so i don’t even reply to their comments, to me that’s the best way to avoid confrontation..
With the santana talk, again, if you were around as you said, you should know then how much people were hoping for him to be healthy JUST to be traded, he has been and now this article came up, and it’s exactly the same talk we had last offseason for most part, my point is, what is the point of us then saving $25 million? It’s not like we will use it…
The only difference will be our payroll will be around $70 million instead of $95 minus an ace plus some “prospects”.. That’s it..
2 for one answers here as I’m starting to lose the thread here….
Lisa: I think there is many of us Met fans now daring to dream about post season now, when we had them finishing in the cellar at the beginning of the season. How great would that be?
Alex: Yes, I did see many discussing a possible trade with Johan if he had a good first half – and not just on this blog either. I was not one of those. To me, even if he finished 14-0 first half with a 1.00 ERA and under 1 WHIP, I still didn’t think there was anyway a team was going to take on his contract, especially with his injury history now.
Joe, I disagree about alex, but I’ll play nice if he does.
Seems to me that some of the malcontents who represent the ‘wrong side of the tracks’ on this site don’t appreciate the fact that the Mets Are Better Than Sex (to steal part of the title of another article on MMO). Maybe they should try it instead of climaxing here with their diatribes.
Yeah we who thought the team didn’t need to be wiped clean and started over are Malcontents…
Get over yourself here dude!
When are you going to comment on these mets you say you love more than Sex instead of trashing posters which seems to be what you do the majority of the time when your not too busy trying to tell everyone else THEY started it?
THIS IS STARTING IT!!!!!!
YOUR GUILTY!
Metsie — So why is a guy like you trying to prove you’re downwardly mobile when you weren’t in my thoughts? Why do you include yourself with Bayonne and Alex, the two biggest whiners this site has? I really have to wonder if you’re hitting the bottle. I didn’t take a position on the Mets plans one way or another. Yet you seem to think I have. Why Metsie? What’s your evidence?
I said: Maybe they should try it instead of climaxing here with their diatribes.
Then you blast out a diatribe to prove my point. Get a life, friend.
Why because I’m tired of hearing you whine about them starting shit that everytime I turn around YOU HAVE STARTED!
Either stop starting crap so they have no excuse for it when they get on you or stop complaining about a practice you yourself help perpetuate!
Metsie — Take a cold shower and get off the soapbox. You insert yourself into the dialogs of others. Fact: you write at least five times what I do here on MMO. Some of your stuff is not interesting to me. But you seem to think you’re the judge and jury. You’re not. I’ve got another life. You don’t seem to have one other than on this site. If you don’t like what I do, stuff it. I don’t write to please you as I find we have different interests.
Alex whines and whines and his posts are repetitive and usually just more heat to an issue without illuminating the subject. His CLUTCH posts, literally hundreds of them, are b-o-r-i-n-g. Yours are becoming much the same if you let them be. Both you and he try to control the subject matter. You never will with me. As for Bayonne, he’s probably the least popular guy here. So be it, Metsie. Now take a break and start making sense.
Excuse me but if it was personal argument why is it displayed on a public forum?
I don’t care if you wish to insult each other back and forth qall I ask is don’t whine about which side started it because as far as I can tell your just as guilty in it happening than anyone else!
Go hash it out in the Shoutbox or something, they have mods who can determine who was the first to get out of line and dispatch them.
Well consiring that if Santana and Young blow out their shoulders or if Dickey stops winning games wholesale we could easily have 100 losses as fast as you can say OUCH!
I never predicted they would but it is still a possibility if we start to have injuries to our Pitching staff which don’t look now but two of them are hurt!
Santana with a bad Ankle and Gee with a Bloodclot!
SO I would start counting the chickens in the loss column just yet!
they would have to go 16-60 in order to lose a hundred games.
Do you realize how awful they would need to be? The Astros haven’t even lost 60 games yet.
Yeah easy…Just lose Dickey and Santana to injury!
Lose more and maybe you lose more than 100!
Not saying they will mind you just that it’s still possible!
No, they could promote the entire AAA rotation and still be good enough to win 1/3 of their remaining games. That is more than enough.
yeah this from the guy who played Parrot to all the rebuilders and roster sweepers in the offseason…
You were so wrong then why would anyone listen to your evaluation of where this team is now?
It was US who said this team was close to contention if only the GM would recognize it and get it the talent it needed to put it over the top not you!
The only reason the Mets would have to trade Santana is that he is having a season he likely will not be able to replicate.
I see no reason why the Santana of 2013 can’t be better than the one we’ve seen this year. In fact, I think it’s reasonable to assume he will be better than he is now.
If there is a time to trade him, it will be a year from now when Harvey and Wheeler will be here, but it would be silly to get rid of him in 2012 especially with Gee on the DL.
Is now the time? No. Ask me again in a year.
This is a ridiculous question. You don’t trade your ace when you’re in playoff contention. If, in a year from now, the Mets are out of it, then it makes sense to listen to offers. But right now, it’d be stupid to even consider trading him.
No one is suggeing to trade Dickey…
He’s our Ace and anyone who thinks a guy 1 game over .500 is has a problem not easily corrected by words.
The issue isn’t should you trade him the issue is what do you get by doing so.
If it was for another good starting pitcher that would be one thing…
If it was a part of a three team deal that got you kids that then gets you that pitcher it’s also fine.
Truth is the guy most tradeable is not Santana it is Young.
Fine to have one guy who might blow out his shoulder but to rely on two of them is foolish, especially considering he isn’t yours to keep even if he does do well the rest of the year!
Get something for him you CAN keep!
“He’s (Dickey) our Ace and anyone who thinks a guy 1 game over .500 is has a problem not easily corrected by words.”
King Felix is 6-5 right now, when he won the Cy Young he went 13-12.
I guess he wasn’t their ace though huh
Was there another guy on that team that was 13-1?
His record says more about his team than what he did…Not the case with Santana…
he has one game where he got little run support and a loss…
The rest have been all due to his own giving up of Runs.
And unless you think Santana is in the running for a Cy Young I fail to see why you would even put him into the same thing sentence as a guy who did so on a team that has yet to get out of it’s own way for years now!
By your logic, Dickey was a crappy pitcher last year because he was 8-13. I’m aware that Dickey is having the better season, but Johan has the better track record. As far as I’m concerned, you could call either of them the ace of this staff.
And trading Young is also really, really stupid. Especially with Gee out now.
No thats by the logic your trying to place on what I said not the lofic I actually used.
Santana’s Record this year is a product mostly of Santana! More of his losses this year are due to Santana not having it!
Most of Dickey’s losses last year were due to his team not having it.
BIG DIFFERENCE!
Santana has surpassed expecteations but he is not mowing down the league!
You just this he is because he had two games back to back where he had a CG shutout followed by a No Hitter.
Your forgetting the up and down he has had before that and after it!
He lost in Washington.Pitched 5 Innings gave up 1 run No Run Support.
Then Lost @ATL lasted all of two innings. Have you forgotten that day? gave up 6 runs!
Then Lost vs Yankees Pitched 5 with 7 Hits 6 runs 4 HRs
Lost both games to the happles Cubs! giving up 2 runs in one and 7 in the other!
So of his 5 losses 4 are all pretty much the product of his own bad start not the run support that Dickey suffered from last year!
You just seem to put all of that out of your mind because of a 1 week period from May 26 to June 1st where he threw a complete game shutout followed by a No Hitter.
He hasn’t pitched great..he HAS pitched better than was probably expected by anyone before the season started,
But he has been up and down throughout the first half where a guy like Dickey has NOT!
His only bad outings have been no decisions on his part and in many cases wins on the team’s part even when he did not get the decision!
I know it’s hard to not be able to call the guy whpo threw a no hitter an ace but thats the truth of the matter here, Santana isn’t in the running for the Cy Young this year Dickey is!
Again, I’m considering track record here. And again, I’m perfectly fine with considering both of them aces. Chill out, dude. Stop being so damn confrontational.
I’m just trying to get people to come back down to earth on how well they think Santana is actually doing this year thats all…
Does he have a track record? Sure! No one is saying he isn’t qa good pitcher but he is still far away from most of his track record at this point. I hope he gets back to it by this time next year but I won’t hold my breath.
Dickey is doing it NOW and that too could blow up in a flash.
incorrect. his ERA is very good, and more importantly, his WHIP is good. if your whip is good, you are pitchig well, case closed. it is stupid to judge him based on single games you happen to remember. look at the numbers.
EVERYONE IS TRADABLE. Johan is unlikely to be traded. Next season he and Dickey will be perfect mentors for Harvey, Wheeler and other young pitchers on the staff. Sandy kept Reyes until the end of his contract. I expect that he will do the same with Santana.
I am pleased with where the Mets are at this time of the season. Our starting pitchers have exceeded expectations and both our bench players and our starting regulars have hit in the clutch.
The downside, of course, has been the bullpen and the lack of production from the outfield and catching positions, generally. Some individuals have stepped up such as Capt. Kirk, Scott Hairston, and Mike Baxter, but overall I have been disappointed with the outfielders and catchers on both sides of the ball.
Ike Davis is a curious case. His resurgence bodes well for our team and instills the sense that the front office has the patience that is sometimes required to allow a talented player to get back on track.
We appear to be deeper in pitching than many baseball people give us credit for. I think as Mets fans we can sit back with a calm reserve knowing that Matt Harvey and Zack Wheeler will be banging down the door to the major league roster next spring.
I think that we should be very judicious in how we deploy our assets in the trading market. Players such as Daniel Murphy, Justin Turner, Ramon Ramirez and Andres Torres should be considered expendable. We would be wise to target other teams’ outfield and catching prospects in any trade proposals that involve these players.
As a Met fan, I am pleased with the effort this team has brought forth to date. This is not a strong team and it has a number of holes in the roster. Notwithstanding these deficits, they compete day in and day out and sometimes get beaten by lousy teams and sometimes annihilate the really good ones. It’s been an interesting year and one in which I’m grateful to be a Met fan.
I agree the Mets should not trade Santana and do whatever they can do to win this season as long as the decisions are reasonable.
But it cannot be said that the situation this year has nothing to do with the situation last season in relation to Beltran for it certainly could. We have to ask if the mindset of the front office changed in 12 months. What if getting another Wheeler-rated type player is offered? Do they think the team is ready now or still a few seasons off? What about the understanding that the Mets are lucky to be in a playoff hunt only because this year the league is going to reward mediocrity with an opportunity for post-season play? Would winning in one non-competitive season short-change the team in the long-term by passing up such an opportunity if it still needs to rebuild?
Also, the Wilpons are in no better a financial situation than they were 12 months ago other than knowing they can at least hang onto the team whereas a civil suit settlement against them would have been the final nail in the coffin.
At this point the Mets are only two victories better after 86 games than last year. If the debbie doubters felt that other teams were going to pull away from in 2011, the same could be said for the second half of 2012.
your points are not valid because of the new wildcard spot, which makes a huge difference. also lasy year even though the mets were not trmendously far behind, there were plenty of other teams ahead of them which they would have passed. it makes a difference if you are 3 games out vs if you are 3 games out and 3 other teams are two games out.
Hi Martin,
Realize I’m just playing devils advocate here. But these are points to consider about the Mets position in relation to other teams. Do the Mets have the personnel to keep up with others that are stronger on paper and can very well improve upon their first halves and pull away from in then in the second? Are they ready yet or still two or three years away?
If the Mets play at the same pace they can be projected to win about 86 games. Now think of it. We are 46-40 in the first half with David Wright and R.A. Dickey having career years. Tejada is hitting as good as our former shortstop did in 2011. Can these players expect to continue performing at such a torrid pace the rest of the year? Dillion Gee might be lost for an extended period of time. Chris Young is already having problems with fatigue and facing a lineup the third time around. Santana, unfortunately, is starting to show inconsistency with a well pitched game followed by being hit hard the next. So our starting pitching suddenly has a lot of question marks even with the call up of Matt Harvey and our bullpen is still a real mess.
While Davis and Duda could contribute more in the second half, we have no run production from center field with Torres and now Kirk coming down to earth. If Bay returns, does his bat finally pick up? We might have trouble scoring more runs as the pitching allows more on it’s own.
And the biggest point to consider is that even with the second wild card, again, how many other teams can be expected to readily improve upon their records of the first half – both with who they have now and by being buyers in July with considerably better hands than the Mets have to deal with teams like the Cubs, Astros, Padres, etc. These teams include the Dodgers, Giants, Marlins, Braves and Nationals not to mention Cincinnati and St. Louis – not even mentioned are the long-shot Pirates. That’s seven other clubs vying for five playoff slots. And by playing in weaker divisions, the Dodgers, Giants, St. Louis and Cincinnati could pad their won-lost record by beating up on the really bad clubs that are in their divisions, unlike the Mets who have to contend with four other much better clubs (even the Phillies can be improved with the return of Ryan Howard). The second place teams in just those two divisions alone can have artificial but nevertheless better won loss records by virtue of not being in the East. Unfair, but to their advantage in an unbalanced schedule.
So the odds are actually not so much better tacked in the Mets favor than last year. So – in hypothetical terms – if the opportunity arises that the Mets can get a highly rated prospect in return for Santana – and who knows, if Bay returns and scouts from other teams see that he has straightened out his mechanics – should they do it while their value is still high?
That move would be looking beyond this year and continue building the foundation for the future. Is trying to stay in the race in 2012 – with no promise that the other competing teams for post-season won’t get better as the Mets stay stagnant – worth passing up the chance to get more prospects?
Sandy has only three weeks left to make such decisions.
Also, the Wilpons still being in a bad financial situation, they could save millions unloading Santana and being rid with his contract this season and next. The situation has not changed drastically and Sandy said the franchise was only liquid through the end of this season and thus far has not said things to the contrary
What would you do in Sandy’s shoes if more highly rated young talent was being offered to us? Would you repeat what was done last season with Beltran and KRod and what Billy Beane did over the winter with Oakland (three good all-star players, only one over thirty, for five younger ones, some of whom are already paying dividends) to continue the rebuilding process which could possibly yield many more years of success than if we kept Jonann (and even Bay) on the possible chance that we can luck into it?
Again, not my opinion – just my question.
If you assume things like wright regressing then you can also assume Ike improving. You are introducing pointless whatifs. And again, the extra wild card makes an enormous, enormous difference. Your points are not valid and this year Is not like last year. Sandy will not be selling off parts.
Hi Martin,
Beg to differ with you but these are valid points that I am sure Sandy is considering himself. The schedule is against us and favors the top teams in the central and the west. On paper, these teams do have more strength and can improve themselves greatly due to having more resources to be buyers and not worry about obtaining just rentals.
The Mets are still in the re-building process. Sandy even said that the team is at least a year or so away. His mindset is looking ahead toward the future and the implications a move can make which might be better in the short term but not helpful in the long one.
I wish it was only as simple as you suggest, I really do. But it is not.
But like you, despite the “logic” of the above, the human part of me, the one that deals with emotion, instinct and intuition sees this team has the heart to take it all and does not need to sacrifice the season on the opportunity of getting another possible Zach Wheeler or somebody close to that. So you and I actually do feel the same way.
It’s just that we have to consider the analytical ways of the front office and their approach to the ball club. I’m sure they were aware of all the empty seats their moves last year were going to create and they went ahead with those moves anyway. If they felt that way last season – when many of us contend as strongly as you do now that they had a legitimate chance and was not worth sacrificing it for a Zach Wheeler and saving of money – they can certainly do so again this year. Hopefully, they won’t.
Hi Joey D,
You bring up good points on the team fianances. It is worth notining that the cheapest tickets on Stub Hub are 15 dollars. Last year tickets under 5 dollars were common. This bodes well for the Wilpons and their dynamic pricing. A pennent race will put money in their pockets as well.
Last year Beltron and K Rod were moved with the Mets picking up alot of their salary. It is unlikely that anyone would be willing to pick up Santana’s contract without alot of Met cash. The Wilpons must be pleased with this season. I expect that they will not want to anger the fans by having a salary dump. They should keep promoting players from Buffalo and make room by moving players unlikely to be tendered after this season.
One more time. Last year it was stupid to think they had a shit at the playoffs. This year it isn’t. Not hard to understand. The whole system is different with new wild card. Pay attention. The only goal of the season is to make the playoffs. If you are not gonna make it, you build for the future. Last year not much chance to make it. This year pretty god chance. Simple no selling off parts. Not the same as last year.
iPad autocorrect wreaked havoc with thatpost
Good luck with that.
the mets are buyers, not sellers. case closed.
I guess this came out before Gee situation was out there but anyway how do you thank the man who pitched 1st no hitter for Mets and gives team chance everytime he goes out there plus is a competitor so I say nix to trade and say bring in another arm to replace Gee and
Let’s Go Mets!
Sheesh are we back into not playing nice again fellas, come on take it out on those that would take your job, hurt you or your family, etc, here at MMO we are passionate fans and we agree to disagree and we have fun doing it while cheering for our favorite team.
Fonzie,
Again you chose to read only what you want to.
My first words said that I WAS PLAYING DEVILS ADVOCATE! I specifically stated I was questioning the mindset of the front office.
Either you don’t understand what playing devil’s advocate means and and thus unintentionally misunderstood what I was doing or you knew very well why I was raising the points that I did and twisted my words in an underhanded and not so respectable way like you do with others to discredit those who disagree with you.
Earlier this week you accused me of flip-flopping my position this year and being a debbie doubter by pointing out things I had previous said. What it seemed you deliberately left out was the fact that after a few days of those types of remarks, I wrote I was intentionally was being sarcastic by applying your own points from last year to that of this. There was then no response from you to what I wrote.
I mentioned this again in my response to your latest, unfounded accusation earlier this week. I noticed you were silent on the issue once more..
Fonzie, these deliberate attempts to discredit others who you disagree with only results in the loss of your own credibility by your own doing. You are not like this in the chat room and I wonder if that is due to the fact that it is monitored by the moderators, unlike these forum postings.
So hy don’t you just be like you are in the chat room and stop with the insults and unfounded accusations and stick to your opinions here so we can have a true discussion and stop this type of nonsense?
BTW – If you think the questions I raised about the front office mindset are off base, I would love to hear the reasons why just like with Martin.
What the heck are you talking about Joey. I haven’t addressed anything from you all day.
Fonzie,
Again you chose to read only what you want to.
My first words said that I WAS PLAYING DEVILS ADVOCATE! I specifically stated I was questioning the mindset of the front office.
Okay and what does this have to do with me? I didn’t even read your comment to Martin cause I’m sure I’ve read the same thing from you over and over.
Either you don’t understand what playing devil’s advocate means and and thus unintentionally misunderstood what I was doing or you knew very well why I was raising the points that I did and twisted my words in an underhanded and not so respectable way like you do with others to discredit those who disagree with you.
Huh??? WTF???
Earlier this week you accused me of flip-flopping my position this year and being a debbie doubter by pointing out things I had previous said. What it seemed you deliberately left out was the fact that after a few days of those types of remarks, I wrote I was intentionally was being sarcastic by applying your own points from last year to that of this. There was then no response from you to what I wrote.
What exactly did I flip flop? I said you are a Debbie Downer, because every day you say the same thing, especially after a win. You try to suck the life out of the enjoyment of others by your constant repetitive posts about last years deals as if the same thing is going to happen this year and you try to compare the situations of this year and last year and they are extremely different for a number of reasons.
You come here and act like a gentleman with your Hi Fonzie, Hi Metsie, Hi Maniac bullshit but all you do is look to bait others by rehashing the same old mindless bullshit everyday and then cry foul when you’re called out.
There was no response because I was away and just got back home yesterday and I don’t feel a need to keep rehashing the same old bullshit with somebody who justs looks to instigate with people who don’t have a hate boner for the GM, with your daily boring posts about last years dealine deals, because I’d rather pay attention to a team that is actually in a pennant race as opposed to the team last year that was on the outside looking in.
I mentioned this again in my response to your latest, unfounded accusation earlier this week. I noticed you were silent on the issue once more..
Accusations? What did I accuse you of being a Debbie Downer? Silent? No I was travelling and I don’t give a shit about your daily dose of whining about last year.
Fonzie, these deliberate attempts to discredit others who you disagree with only results in the loss of your own credibility by your own doing. You are not like this in the chat room and I wonder if that is due to the fact that it is monitored by the moderators, unlike these forum postings.
Who have I discredited? You? How? Who have I lost credibility with? You? I’m no different in the chatroom. If I don’t agree with you I’ll let you know in there too. I just try and stay away when you go in there so I don’t have to read the same old whining about last years team being dismantled. All 2 players that were traded. Maybe you’re right. Maybe they should’ve kept the team together. This way you could continue to enjoy the sub 500 baseball that team played for 3 straight years.
So hy don’t you just be like you are in the chat room and stop with the insults and unfounded accusations and stick to your opinions here so we can have a true discussion and stop this type of nonsense?
I have never insulted you once but you keep lying and saying I have. Grow up.
BTW – If you think the questions I raised about the front office mindset are off base, I would love to hear the reasons why just like with Martin.
I have already explained this to you. This year and last year are completely different and if you can’t see that I can’t help you.
Fonzie,
You already lost any credibility with commenting about me, then deleting it, then saying you never wrote anything, then me posting your email about what you wrote.
But what is more important is that your actions about your own self are little but it reflects on the credibility of all those who run MMO. How can we not trust that they too delete certain comments that shows deception on their parts?
Joe D. and others – you better address this issue. Not about Fonzie with myself and/ or others, but with your own credibility and integrity. If one does it, then we can suspect you all do.
Again Joey what are you talking about? I didn’t delete anything. I can’t delete a post once it’s posted, only JoeD can delete a post so please tell me what the hell you are talking about?
And as far as losing credibility. I could really care less if I have lost any credibilty with you. Reading your repetitive agenda driven instigating posts have indicated to me what you’re all about and it shows despite you trying to pass yourself off as a gentleman with your little Hi everybody salutations, you’re just a baiter looking to start a flame war and further divide an already divided fanbase.
You never had a any credibility to begin with so if I’ve lost credibilty with you it’s really no skin off my back and Joe.D doesn’t need you telling him how to run his site, in case you haven’t noticed this site is one of the most frequented Met sites on the web.
I DISAGREE COMPLETELY!! Santana and Murphy are absolutely untouchable, I believe!!!!!
Fonzie,
ten minutes after I wrote this……..
Hi Martin,
Realize I’m just playing devils advocate here. But these are points to consider about the Mets position in relation to other teams. Do the Mets have the personnel to keep up with others that are stronger on paper and can very well improve upon their first halves and pull away from in then in the second? Are they ready yet or still two or three years away?
If the Mets play at the same pace they can be projected to win about 86 games. Now think of it. We are 46-40 in the first half with David Wright and R.A. Dickey having career years. Tejada is hitting as good as our former shortstop did in 2011. Can these players expect to continue performing at such a torrid pace the rest of the year? Dillion Gee might be lost for an extended period of time. Chris Young is already having problems with fatigue and facing a lineup the third time around. Santana, unfortunately, is starting to show inconsistency with a well pitched game followed by being hit hard the next. So our starting pitching suddenly has a lot of question marks even with the call up of Matt Harvey and our bullpen is still a real mess.
While Davis and Duda could contribute more in the second half, we have no run production from center field with Torres and now Kirk coming down to earth. If Bay returns, does his bat finally pick up? We might have trouble scoring more runs as the pitching allows more on it’s own.
And the biggest point to consider is that even with the second wild card, again, how many other teams can be expected to readily improve upon their records of the first half – both with who they have now and by being buyers in July with considerably better hands than the Mets have to deal with teams like the Cubs, Astros, Padres, etc. These teams include the Dodgers, Giants, Marlins, Braves and Nationals not to mention Cincinnati and St. Louis – not even mentioned are the long-shot Pirates. That’s seven other clubs vying for five playoff slots. And by playing in weaker divisions, the Dodgers, Giants, St. Louis and Cincinnati could pad their won-lost record by beating up on the really bad clubs that are in their divisions, unlike the Mets who have to contend with four other much better clubs (even the Phillies can be improved with the return of Ryan Howard). The second place teams in just those two divisions alone can have artificial but nevertheless better won loss records by virtue of not being in the East. Unfair, but to their advantage in an unbalanced schedule.
So the odds are actually not so much better tacked in the Mets favor than last year. So – in hypothetical terms – if the opportunity arises that the Mets can get a highly rated prospect in return for Santana – and who knows, if Bay returns and scouts from other teams see that he has straightened out his mechanics – should they do it while their value is still high?
That move would be looking beyond this year and continue building the foundation for the future. Is trying to stay in the race in 2012 – with no promise that the other competing teams for post-season won’t get better as the Mets stay stagnant – worth passing up the chance to get more prospects?
Sandy has only three weeks left to make such decisions.
Also, the Wilpons still being in a bad financial situation, they could save millions unloading Santana and being rid with his contract this season and next. The situation has not changed drastically and Sandy said the franchise was only liquid through the end of this season and thus far has not said things to the contrary
What would you do in Sandy’s shoes if more highly rated young talent was being offered to us? Would you repeat what was done last season with Beltran and KRod and what Billy Beane did over the winter with Oakland (three good all-star players, only one over thirty, for five younger ones, some of whom are already paying dividends) to continue the rebuilding process which could possibly yield many more years of success than if we kept Jonann (and even Bay) on the possible chance that we can luck into it?
Again, not my opinion – just my question.
……..You then wrote this:
Mets Merized Online getmetsmerized@aol.com
12:34 AM (1 hour ago)
to me
There is a new comment on the post “MMO Fair or Foul: Time To Trade Johan Santana”.
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/07/mmo-fair-or-foul-time-to-trade-johan-santana.html
Author: Fonzie13
Comment:
Funny how you were the one saying we were gonna suck for 4 or 5 years because we purged 3 allstars, and now you’re taking bows cause the rebuilding prcess is moving along faster than most anticipated. Either way you would take bows and say see I told ya. If they sucked for 5 years you would say see I told ya and if we turned it around in 1 year you would say see I told ya. You said all winter long he we were gonna suck because we purged 3 allstars, actually 1 allstar and now you’re patting yourself on the back to say you knew we were good enough all along. Amazing!
- my response included the following:
” Earlier this week you accused me of flip-flopping my position this year and being a debbie doubter by pointing out things I had previous said. What it seemed you deliberately left out was the fact that after a few days of those types of remarks, I wrote I was intentionally was being sarcastic by applying your own points from last year to that of this. There was then no response from you to what I wrote.
I mentioned this again in my response to your latest, unfounded accusation earlier this week. I noticed you were silent on the issue once more.”
… and another one I wrote had this ended to it not by me: “Your comment is awaiting moderation.” I have no idea what that means but it’s something that is in the control of others.
Your own behavior suggests your intention here is not to discuss things but to goad people as per the shout-radio program hosts whose job it is to be rude to get attention. And I will admit, you are an expert at accomplishing what you set out for. Why? Perhaps some of the people on the following have the answer.
http://www.ask.com/answers/133725141/why-are-people-so-rude-on-the-internet
Joey D, that comment by Fonzie was not attributed to you.
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/07/mmo-fair-or-foul-time-to-trade-johan-santana.html#comment-262252
I don’t know how email notifications work since I never use them butmy suggestion is maybe actually visiting the site and seeing if indeed it was intended toward you.
That response was not to you and if you scroll up you’d see it’s still there. It was in response to Metsie.
Well Fonzie,
If that is the case, I will apologize since what you wrote was not in reply to me, though it came ten minutes after my response and more than seven hours after Metsie posted him and what you said about Metsie you have said about me on numerous occassions.
Which still doesn’t take away from the bigger picture. Recognize you brought this particular wrongful assumpition upon your own self by your own past actions as per what I described in those follow-up emails regarding deliberate twisting of one’s words, character assination, etc. plus remaining silent when called out.
With the manner in which you behave, the way you insult individuals and flat out lie about their words there was no way to avoid eventually being blamed for something that you actually did not instigate for that is the impression you have left with people. That is the reputation you have built for yourself. That is why when you said you didn’t write anything to me, I didn’t believe you because your credibility regarding being truthful and honest had long since vanished.
I do hope that you learned something from this. Again, I will apologize for accusing you of having done something you did not do. I was wrong and I have no hesitation in admitting this but I still feel sorry for you since you created the atmosphere for such a mistake to be made to begin with. Think about that for a while if you really do care about how you come across to others. And think about the comments made by others in that attachment about rudeness on the internet.
My apologies to others who had to be drawn into this, though I know many have complained about such issues themselves.
You go on and keep lying Joey. I have never insulted you but you keep on insisting I did. The only person I have insulted was Metsie in retaliation to his insults. So quit the BS about my past actions. I called you out for your baseless assumptions and you accused both me and Des for attacking you with insults and neither one of us insulted you.
What words did I twist? You make assumptions based on your biased opinions and I called you out on it and proved those assumptions false and you call it word twisting. I assasinated your character? How by proving you wrong. You stated along with your buddy Metsie that Sandy did not build those Oakland teams, Rigney did and I proved both of you wrong and you didn’t like it. Stop deliberately lying to rile up others and you won’t be called out.
You say the same shit everyday and another regular tagee was basically lambasted for doing the same thing, only he was an extremely knowledgable and insightful Met fan who happened to repeat himself alot too.
What you do with your negativity is try to bring others down with you. You come into the shoutbox after just about every win and start up with your lets not forget Sandy’s threw in the towel last year bullshit.
No I don’t remain silent when called out. I already explained to you that I was away on vacation and I really don’t feel like going over the same old tireless debates with someone who’s only looking to bring others down with negativity. I’m enjoying this season. Unlike last year we are actually in a WC race. If you wanna live in the past go right ahead but don’t try and bring others down with you.
If you were pro Sandy then I gaurantee you you would definitely be insulted enough you’d need therapy by now. You would praying for the days where you have only been called out. The fact that you are anti Sandy is the only reason why you don’t get insulted on this site, despite claiming that you have been insulted.
Fine.
Fonzie13 July 12, 2012 at 4:50 pm
FONZIE13, FOR SOME REASON I COULDN’T GET THE REPLY BUTTON TO RESPOND; HOWEVER, REGARDING YOUR DECISION TO REWRITE HISTORY SURROUNDING THE “BAY SIGNING” PERHAPS U NEED TO IMAGINE BACK TO THE ACTUAL CIRCUMSTANCES OF A BIG FAT HOLE IN NYM’s LF WITH 2 TOP CANDIDATES ON THE F/A MKT TO CHOOSE FROM.
1) MATT HOLLADAY, RH SPRAY HITTER, REP’D BY SCOTT BORAS LOCKED IN WITH PREMKT HOME TEAM NEGOTTIATIONS EVENTUALLY SIGNING FOR 7Y/120M
2) JASON BAY, A RH, PULL HITTER COULD BE HAD FOR 4Y/66M
INSTEAD OF BEING THE EXTRAVAGENCE U DEPICT HIM AS, BAY WAS ACTUALLY THE BARGAIN OF THE TWO BEST AVAILABLE LF OPTIONS THE FACT HE HASN’T PERFORMED UP TO ABILITIES IS NOT A BASIS TO QUESTION THE DECISION BECAUSE IT WOULD’VE REQUIRED A CRYSTAL BALL NO ONE POSSESSES; BUT IT WAS REASONABLE TO BELIEVE HE WOULD PERFORM AS NEEDED.
VILLAFY MINAYA FOR CASTILLO & PEREZ AS “UNREASONABLE DEALS; BUT BAY WAS A COUP @ THE TIME. BY ANY REASONABLE STANDARDS.
Hi ’62,
I was only against the Bay signing because I felt any power hitter would be short-circuited by Citi Field as we already saw with Beltran, Wright and the comments made by most opposing hitters. But, of course, I felt the problem was not with Jason Bay but with the circus minded mentality of the ownership that designed such field dimensions in the first place.
But you are right, as far as market value and talent was concerned, if the Mets were going to try and fill that hole, they did little wrong acquiring Bay at the time other than the fact that until Citi Field was re-configured, nobody was going to put up the power figures they could in any other park sans San Diego. But again, that is a different issue.
I just think that the Madoff situation was already affecting the Mets buying power since Omar’s plan A was to get a top flight starting pitcher to go along with Santana (with Perez, Maine and Pelfrey not performing as well as expected) along with a left fielder (plan B). But the only two out there of real merit above the trio of starters we already had which were Lee and Haliday and both were involved in tremendous bidding wars. Now, in years past, Omar would have gone after both the starter and the left fielder – which, IMHO, indicates the seeds of the Madoff situation were already planted and beginning to sprout since he wasn’t in the final running for either pitcher. In prior seasons, most Met fans talked in terms of players, not roster payroll. In fact, like Yankee fans, most didn’t care about the amount of the contract as long as the front office obtained the players we wanted.
I love Johan. I think he’s one of the greatest competitors I’ve ever seen on a pitching mound. His comeback this season has been nothing short of amazing. And still, you know what? If you can bring back a Grade A prospect or two, you’ve got to deal him. I don’t see Johan getting better, in fact, he may backslide even this year. And the money is prohibitive. Trade him and start setting the stage for Harvey and Wheeler for next season.
Okay, boys, you still think we shouldn’t be thinking of trading Johan? I know it’s only a couple of games, but with an 88 mph fastball and predictable change, he ain’t fooling anybody anymore. We have to deal him before he crashes and burns and get rid of that contract.
Hi Tom,
It all depends upon the front office. Do they want to see this team win and go get help so we can deal with Santana and Dickey not being the way they were in the first half or do they want to just dump salary like they did last year.
Whatever the front office has done to date, it has not been for the best interests of the team on the field but for those sitting in the owner’s box. Without Bud Selig, the Wilpons would have been forced to sell the team by now.