19
2012
MMO Roundtable: Does David Wright Deserve An Extension?
An article by 
A team source told Andy Martino of the Daily News that a contract extension for David Wright is not on the “front burner” right now, but added that his gut feeling was that a new contract extension would get done.
Today, David Wright eclipsed another franchise record with his three RBI against the Braves this afternoon, tying Darryl Strawberry for the most RBI in Mets history with 733.
He already holds the franchise record for most career doubles (282) and ranks in the top 10 in nearly every major offensive category, including batting average, on-base percentage and slugging.
So do I think the Mets should sign Wright to an extension?
Absolutely… I truly believe the Mets need to act on this for several reasons:
There’s still some loose cannons out there who cant seem to move past their belief that the organization is still financially distressed. Maybe an extension for Wright will pipe them down and then Mets fans can simply focus their attention on the players on the field instead of the people sitting in the owner’s box.
Let me also add that I believe there is still plenty of high caliber baseball in David Wright’s future. He continues to be among the best there is at his position, and I can see him maintaining this level for the next five years at least before a slow decline sets in. Regardless of what some may say, Wright is a leader on and off the field. The younger players all look up to him and the veterans all respect him. He desperately wants to win and he wants to do it with the team he grew up rooting for, the New York Mets. He wears his heart on his sleeve all the time and he absolutely loves this team, the city, and the fans. You don’t ever let a player like this walk away, these are the types of players you keep.
David Wright has given this team every ounce of his heart and soul and his being. He has done so through some very trying and difficult times for this team and this franchise. He has always been a ray of hope whenever things have looked bleak, and he has always projected a positive light and attitude even during some of our team’s darkest moments. I couldn’t think of a better ambassador for this team than David Wright.
In our entire fifty year history we have yet to have one All Star caliber player that spent his entire playing career with the New York Mets. I couldn’t imagine a better candidate to be our first lifelong Met than No. 5 – David Wright.
Lets get this right people…
Lets make sure David Wright retires as a New York Met and also make sure you have a coaching or front office job waiting for him when his playing days are over.
Anyway, that’s how I feel about it…
I threw this question out to the rest of my fantastic colleagues at MMO the other day, and I asked them to reply in 30 word or less. Their choice is pretty unanimous.
Should the Mets sign David Wright to a contract extension?
I’m starting to think yes, because unlike Reyes, I don’t see a viable 3B replacement. I think Tejada had as much to do with Reyes not coming back as anything else. – Jessep
Absolutely. He provides stability to this team and as the younger players mature, Wright will become more of a leader to them. I can see him signing a 5 year extension somewhere in the 70-80 million dollar range. – Joe S.
Absolutely. And they will. He is the face of the franchise and the “glue” of our lineup. He will be extended and possibly even given a “C” as honorary team captain as some have suggested. – Ben
Extend him. Extend him. Extend him. He is an elite 3B, and he carries the offense. – Will
I’ll go ahead and say yes. Niese recently got his extension, and if the organization wants to place an emphasis on rewarding home-grown players, Wright should be first. He provides above average play on both sides of the diamond. – Satish
No doubt, with Reyes gone David is the face of the franchise. They need to keep David Wright a Met long term. – Daniel
Not yet. Wright needs to earn that extension and a three-year decline and some injuries are the forefront of his identity. If he plays 145-150 games, hits .300/.400/.500 with 38 home runs, then yes, both sides should try to negotiate. But not until he proves he deserves it. Right now, he hasn’t proved it. – XtreemIcon
By all means the Mets should sign Wright. He’s not only the face of the team, but the heart & soul of the team too. If they don’t sign him, and the wheels fall off things, we’re looking at 1979 all over again. – Gregg H.
I don’t know for sure yet because its too early! Ask me again around the All-Star Break. – Brandon
Extend! He’s the leader, the captain, the reason they’re winning. All the new guys look up to him and he’s performing brilliantly. Homerun with an injured pinkie should have been the deal maker. – Dave
Yes. When Wright is on, he is a critical part of the team and this year he has clearly shown that he is also leader. – Elliot
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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way too early. they let Reyes go after he won a batting title. if they do not think they can win with him, they will let him go.
Big difference and Reyes ran away, the Mets didn’t let him go. Reyes won the batting title (which was great) but he generally isn’t a contender for it. He had a great year but he is injury prone. Us Mets fans will laugh our asses off if he has his 50th (or whatever) leg issue and misses half the season. There was no way the Mets would throw money at him after the injury plagued seasons they have had recently. Dealing with Bay, Santana AND Reyes being wastes of money would drive any team insane. Now Reyes could be healthy but the team was playing the stats. They will probably keep an eye on Wright for at least a couple months if not more to see how he is doing physically. His injuries were also different than Reyes’s. With a guy like Reyes whose only contribution is his legs its different than a player who has power and rbis. Bat speed usually slows down slower than leg speed.
“Reyes whose only contribution is his legs”
I hate when people say that about Jose. He is a tremendous all round player. He can hit for average, extra base power, he also lays good defense, and on top of all that has excellent speed – His legs is just one of the many things he brings to the table.
When people say is only contibution is his legs, they make him seem like he’s Jaun Pierre or something. He’s not. He gives you much more than just speed.
Queue the clutch vs. unclutch debate.
Wonder when this ‘source’ thinks it will get done?
My opinion is yes. Reasonable years and money though. Chipper is a rare exception and not many are going to remain productive heading to 40.
Don’t want to see guaranteed money past 33-34. So 4 years maybe with an option for a 5th?
wright tied it he didnt pass strawberry
He’s still the all time leader in RBIs isn’t he? Yankee fan go home!
Uh Wright has the entire rest of the season to pass it and Straw is retired so yeah Wright gets the record now.
All we do know about David’s future is that Sandy said the Mets would not get rid of both David and Reyes in the same year. Don’t know if that is meant in terms of baseball seasons or calendar years for the G.M. said that toward the end of 2011 and we are now into 2012.
If the Mets dont re-sign Wright thousands of fans will wash their hands and stop going to the park and all the Brandon Nimmos in the world are not going to bring us back. This will be almost like letting Seaver go, while Seaver held almost all the pitching records, Wright holds almost all the hitting records. If the Mets dont care about that then why should we care them.
Amen Joe. DW is a class guy, a loyal fan, and a great Met. Extend him.
Wright is not Seaver. The Mets went from 9th place to World Champs and Seaver was the Big Dude that year. Seaver is a Hall of Famer. And I do not believe attendance will suffer either. Reyes did not affect attendance. Only losing affects attendance. Maybe some fans will stay away, but others will come if they win.
Wright isn’t a pitcher. Big difference. And they got EXTREMELY lucky. There is a reason they were called the Miracle Mets. Wright is on the path to the hall of fame unless his body falls apart. Its early in the season to talk about an extension but if he stays with a batting average around .300 he will deserve the extension easily. Most other teams are slobbering over the possibility of getting their hands on Wright.
I doubt they are slobbering. Two good weeks does not make David a hot commodity again. A lot of people are waiting and seeing on him. Did you see 1969 ? Did you see Seaver? The Mets woon their division going away and swept the Braves. They then beat a team many people were calling one of the best ever in the Series. Luck had nothing to do with it. Their pitching was off the charts. David could not carry Seaver’s glove. He is a nice guy and a good compiler. But I do not know if I want him up in a big spot late in the season or the playoffs. David has to prove he is a winner to be kept. He is still young enought to do that. being a winning player is the key. Not that he is a good met and a good guy in the clubhouse. Loyalty does not beget 5 year contracts. That and a token will get you a ride on the subway
There’s absolutely no rush to give him an extension when he has an option for next season. Let him play the season out with the extra motivation to have a great year. If he does, then he’ll get an extension, if he doesn’t, then he won’t. Pretty smple if you ask me.
No. But of course he’ll probably get one
Despite his hot start the last 2 games Wright came up in game turning situations including striking out today with runners on 1st & 3rd and 2 outs with the score 8-5 at the time. I don’t care if he got a nice hit in the 1st inning the Wright M.O is this:
95% of the time as the game wears on and the ABs become more important if it’s a close game the weaker he gets. And to me, that does not warrant an extension but instead get a sucker team to take this choker and his window dressing stats in exchange for some young pitching.
And for the Met fan who refuses to accept this, including the author of this post, you get what you deserve. In the end I think the organization will retain him, and that’s too bad.
Even in games where he gets 3 rbi you whine about him not getting more? Sorry he didn’t get 14 rbi to tie the game single handedly.
Look,
I don’t care if he..or anybody for that matter…goes 4 for 4 in 4 innings with 2 HRs and drives in 8 runs, what matters most is the winning the game. And after all that it’s still a close game, even if it’s 10-10 in the 8th if he comes up with runners on with a chance to change the game and strikes out or pops up all that doesn’t matter. No stat and no performance is above winning.
It’s about doing it when it matters the most and fans like you simply cannot grasp that.
well, without the 8 runs early in the game, it is 10-2 so no worry about having any big spots at the end. Or many wins.
sorry it doesn’t work that way, i KNEW somebody was going to come back with that. It doesn’t work that way. It means NOTHING if you don’t win the game.
Just add “But without the early, or without this or that….” To ANY sport.
I’m looking for winners regardless of talent level. And that’s people who deliver when you need it the game is on the line.
All that other stuff means NOTHING if you don’t win the game.
True – but clearly the game was no on the line – it was a blow out. Without the runs he produced early in the game it would have been even worse. EVERY run counts, not just the ones late in the game.
Hid your eyes, I am gonna use one of those stat thingies.
You know how many “late and close” AB’s Wright even has this year? 2 and he’s 1/2. I guess those are not the clutch AB’s you are talking about (Late & Close are Plate Appearances in the 7th or later with the batting team tied, ahead by one, or the tying run at least on deck.). Perhaps it’s the high leverage ones, of course he’s only had 7 of those and has 3 hits and 4 RBI. Nah those don’t count because some high leverage AB’s are not at the end of the game. Maybe it’s the amount of AB’s he’s had with the team behind? Only 11 of those and has 5 hits and 4 RBI. Nah again AB’s when you are behind don’t count because you could be behind by 5 runs or behind 1-0 in the 1st. Maybe it’s when the game is with in one run? 20 AB and 11 hits. Nah again that can’t be it because within one run is only clutch when I say it’s clutch. Like when the game is only the line in the 6th inning not in the 3rd inning. Obviously it’s his 9th inning AB’s… he’s only got one hit in the 9th inning. Of course he only has 2 AB but that’s besides the point. He failed!!!!
MY EYES< MY EYES!!!!
what I have trouble accepting is that there are guys that can always get the big hit (kind of implying that they can do it at will), but somehow they have overall worse #s than chokers.
I actually do believe that some guys tighten up in big spots at times. Happens all over. But, why don’t these great clutch guys do the job all the time? They only decide it is worth it in “clutch” situations? Wouldn’t that be a negative?
One of the issues that I have with the clutch debate is given a large enough sample good players are good, bad players are bad. Does that mean that clutch doesn’t exist? Not really. However, what it does mean is that MOST of the time a good player is good for a reason.
That is why even when Wright had a bad season with RISP in uh 2008? Over the course of his career those numbers even out. Same thing with High leverage(.315 .387 .523 .910), RISP (.293 .384 .483 .867), Late and Close (.283 .390 .446 .835), compared to .302 .381 .509 .890.
Is it really significant to label one way or another?
Great point, and one I’ve been trying to make ad nauseum. It’s not just limited to Wright, too. Look at these high leverage numbers compared to career numbers from all these guys who have a “clutch” stigma, whether good or bad. This is as of 9/14/11, when I first made the point:
Wright
Career .302/.382/.511
High Leverage .318/.388/.530
Ortiz
Career .283/.378/.546
High Leverage .296/.391/.559
Keith
Career .296/.384/.436
High Leverage .318/.401/.478
Yogi
Career .285/.348/.482
High Leverage .312/.369/.539
A-Rod
Career .302/.386/.568
High Leverage .302 .388/.579
Playoff .290/.396/.528
Reggie
Career .262/.356/.490
High Leverage .273/.358/.498
Playoff .278/.358/.527
Jeter
Career .313/.383/.449
High Leverage .317/.396/.432
Reyes
Career .291/.339/.439
High Leverage .265/.334/.371
Beltran
Career .283/.361/.495
High Leverage .295/.376/.507
There’s not really a whole heck of a big difference in any of those player’s numbers. And the slight increase in the high leverage numbers could be just as easily explained by the fact that high leverage means there’s usually men on base and not a situation where one can pitch around a hitter. Meaning, the pitcher has to throw strikes, and good hitters hit strikes. Still, a player is as good as he is in every scenario (given enough plate appearances not to skew sample size). Wright (or anyone) who has a career line of .300/.400/.500 will have a very similar line in any split one can invent if he’s got enough PAs in that scenario.
True, again that’s not to say clutch doesn’t exist but as a coach I know that good players are clutch given enough opportunities. Jordan missed more last second shots than he ever made but that certainly doesn’t make him unclutch. His shooting percentage in that situation is right in line with his career. Why? Because he is a good player.
Ding Ding.
What are you talking about? I see a difference with some of those numbers. Yogi for example, you don’t think there’s a difference between a .285 hitter and a .312 hitter? Nobody saying somebody is going to go from .240 average to lets say a .330 average, but some hitters do have the ability to raise their game in some situations.
Kevin youkilis for example is a .288 career hitter, but with RISP he hits .328. If you want to look at OPS, he goes from .879 overall, to .993 with RISP. That’s a difference.
Or Jose Bautista goes from a .254 hitter overall, to a .226 hitter with RISP, and goes all the way down to .191 with 2 outs and RISP. Bautisita is a great hitter, but there is a noticable drop off in his numbers with runners on.
What we are saying is that given enough of a sample size the numbers “usually” even out. Thus a guy like Youk is more likely to have a downward trend over the span of the next same amount of AB’s as he is likely to keep hitting like that.
As Stick pointed out also why don’t those players excel all the time?
875 AB’s and 1117 PA’s is a small sample size?
Compared to his career numbers? Sure.
and most of those numbers mean jack sh*t because high leverage and clutch can occur at any time during the game.
And if Reggie Jackson’s numbers are lower than Alex Rodriguez’? Then you know you’re dealing with complete garbage. As usual just sitting there looking at numbers on a piece of paper and believing they can tell you what player rises the most in big spots is pure GARBAGE.
High Leverage accounts for the most important spot in a game, regardless of when in a game it occurs. It measures EXACTLY what you just said. Also, your memory is either so terrible, or you have no idea what you’re watching (and both are probably true), it leads you to say those asinine things about A-Rod and Reggie. Sure, everyone remembers Reggie’s three homers in one game, but what else did he do? In 45 ALCS games, he hit a whopping .227/.298/.380. That’s why his playoffs are so low. But don’t let what actually happened stand in the way of a good Bayonne delusional rant.
So there you have it. Wrong as usual.
this whole thread just proves that it all comes down to pure subjectivity, and what you remember. Especially when a guy has a huge game (like reggie and the 3 HRs). That pretty much is what everyone remembers, and what becomes his reputation.
No one knows, remembers, or cares what he did in dozens of other playoff games/series.
pretty much the same thing with DW, and 1 AB in a regular season game with a man on 3B.
Yeah let’s not remember that Reggie Jackson was also the World Series MVP vs. The Mets in 1973 as well and as usual your stupid slash line means NOTHING as you have to look at the games themselves, guys can have a lower average and deliver more big hits in big spots than a guy with a higher average so you can’t tell from that STUPID slash line.
But that’s lazy and nice and easy for you to make a determination about what actually transpired during a game – just look at a slash line
So as usual YOU know nothing and don’t even, in your wildest dreams,try and slam me and say I know nothing in this thread because that just makes you look even worse than the lying BUM that you are. I don’t know about your knowledge, i guess it’s okay but a lot of it is misguided cause you’re not good at interpreting things for yourself that you have to lean so much on misleading, stupid numbers.
“Yeah let’s not remember that Reggie Jackson was also the World Series MVP”
OK I will try……
Nope can’t do it.
Now back to your attempt at a point, you are still missing everything we are saying because your eyes are so clouded from taking them out and polishing them all the time.
Clutch does exist, however, over a larger sample good players are good players and bad players are bad players. If you give that same bad player that came through in a big spot enough AB’s he will still be bad. Does it change the fact that he came through in that big spot? Nope but it certainly doesn’t make him a “clutch” player. Same thing for a good player. Clutch doesn’t make him a good player, a good player makes him clutch.
Reggie had some outstanding World Series. But all you remember is what you want to remember. His ALCS games almost doubles his World Series games, so one great game against the Dodgers and one great series vs. the Mets does not a player make. Why are we ignoring the far more frequent failures of his? Isn’t that your gripe with Wright? “Well, if you have enough chances, you’re bound to have a couple.” Works for Wright, but not for Reggie? Hypocrite.
I’m not knocking. He’s a HOFer for a reason. But try to come in here and pretend A) he wasn’t dreadful in the ALCS and B) it doens’t count because you don’t want it to.
And I can slam your knowledge all I want because you’ve shown very little of it and have hidden behind Vinny when I challenge you to back it up. And it’s not just me. That’s your MO against the very many posters here who prove your inferiority every day.
A deeper look at Reggie Jackson’s greatest post season moments and why he’s known as Mr. October:
http://thefanmanifesto.com/2011/10/06/examining-mr-octobers-greatest-fall-classic-moments/
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/reggie-jacksons-greatest-hits-051110
But Alex Rodriguez has a higher slash line, so therefore he’s better, why? Because it’s there on paper.
He says great postseason moments, and then presents us with an article only about the World Series, and then another that presents 10 moments, and five of them are regular season and one is an All Star game. So, that’s really all that needs to be said about Reggie’s postseason moments.
Vinny, I thought you yourself said RISP is a bad metric, what with RISP situations sometimes coming in blowouts or in the first inning, or what have you. High leverage measures the most important, impactful moments of a game.
Youkilis
Career: .288/.389/.490
High Leverage: .283/.394/.476
Batista
Career: .254/.362/.480
High Leverage: .242/.363/.461
Is it even fair with Bautista to use career numbers? The guy is clearly not the same hitter the last few years.
“I thought you yourself said RISP is a bad metric, what with RISP situations sometimes coming in blowouts or in the first inning”
I’m not a big fan of high leverage either. It could come in the 1st inning as well, right? That’s not to say that there aren’t any impactful spots in the 1st, because there are. But if the stat is going to be judging a 1st inning HR the same as a walkoff hit or a hit to tie the game late, then i have to question just how accurate it is. It also doens’t account for how impactful the game is to the season. Like it would be ridiculous to count Longoria’s HR to put the Rays into the playoffs, the same as a HR he hit in the 1st inning or whatever against Baltimore in May. Right? You can’t possibly say that each of those spots had the same impact to the Rays season.
So, I’m not a fan of any of these clutch stats actually. They are all flawed.
Stats by themselves are all flawed. I know you never expected me to say that, LOL.
That being said I was under the impression that high leverage did indeed weight the AB’s on game situations and what inning it was in as well. Thus a homerun in the first inning down 1 would not be the same as a walk off HR in the 9th. I thought. Could be wrong.
However if you use High leverage in combination with Close and Late wouldn’t that give as good of an idea as possible how the player performs in “pressure” situations?
“High Leverage accounts for the most important spot in a game, regardless of when in a game it occurs.”
According to X, it could come at any time in the game. So, that means, it could come in the 1st.
“But if the stat is going to be judging a 1st inning HR the same as a walkoff hit or a hit to tie the game late, then i have to question just how accurate it is.”
It doesn’t do that. That’s what I think you’re misinterpreting. Sure, maybe if the game is 1-0, that 1st inning home run is the biggest spot of the game up until the game tying hit. Then that’s the most important spot. Then when the gime winning hit happens, then it’s the most important. It’s progresive, but ultimately the most important hit of the game will be recorded as such. If a team wins 2-1, the second run will always be more important than the first.
“If a team wins 2-1, the second run will always be more important than the first.”
Ok, so if Longoria hit a 2run HR in the 1st inning, lets say against Baltimore in May, and the Rays go on to win the game 2-1. That hit would count the same as his hit to put the Rays into the postseason?
That depends on the hit to put them into the postseason. Let’s take last season. When Longo hit the GW home run, it was a tie game, no one on base and only one out. Take the game on May 31, when he was up down by 1 in the bottom of the 8th, two out and a runner on and he went yard. That play shifted the game more than the home run in a tie game with only one out did, because teams down by one with 2 out in the bottom of the 8th lose far more often than a team tied with one out in the bottom of the 12th. So when the Rays won both games, the at bat in the May game was a higher leverage at bat than the October game.
I am still under the assumption that High leverage is based on the leverage index which in does weight late and close heavier than early and tied…. LOL.
It is my impression that it is based on the likelihood of a team winning the game and how much of a swing that AB causes. Thus in the first inning 0-0 the likelihood would be 50% give or take which team was favored to start with. However if a player hits a HR in the 9th inning in a 10-1 game the swing would be minimal. If he hits a 3 run HR in the 5th down 2 the swing would be huge.
That’s correct. The only thing is that a game doesn’t start out 50-50. The home team always has a slight advantage. Games start 53-47, if I remember correctly.
So, a 1st inning HR, COULD count the same, as his hit to put the Rays in the postseason.
I rest my case.
X that’s why I said : ” give or take which team was favored to start with.”
Vinny based on my interpretation that would not be the case unless that hit was also negligible at the time in terms of the sliding scale of win probability. Again based on my assumption High Leverage weights things based on the probability that hit changed the outcome of the game at the time it was hit. A HR in the first inning regardless of the score or the outcome of the game is still not going to change the win probability at the time of the hit.
Whoops meant to say it would not change it drastically or at the same amount as an RBI single in an 8-7 game in the 9th inning.
No, again, you’re jumping to comclusions. Like I said above, games start out around 53-47 for the home team. If a first inning home run for the home team given them a 60% chance to win the game, then his WPA is 7. I’m just spitballing numbers here. If the game has no more offense, that home run is the biggest moment of the game.
But if he hits a home run in the late innings that either breaks a tie or comes from behind, that’s worth considerably more. Down by a run in the 8th with 2 out let’s say it’s a 90-10 chance you lose, but he hits a homerun to make it 90-10 in their favor, his WPA is 80.
So clutch to you is based on game probablity and the less probable you are to win the more clutch the hit will be?
So the acts of clutch can not ocurr unless your losing!
And if you get the lead no clutch hit can be had until you lose it…
Doesn’t the act that gets you the lead count as a clutch hit?
Why not?
You had less chances of winning before the hit didn’t you?
I don’t follow. What are you asking? Yes, if you’re losing, and your hit gives the team the lead, it’s more clutch than if you were tied in that situation and far more clutch than if you were already winning and added a tack on. That seems like it would be common sense.
There are more factors to consider, but if you want to go based on score alone, then yes, giving you team the lead when losing is more clutch than breaking a tie or adding a tack-on run.
So to you the game winning hit in a tie game is not clutch because you feel you have to be losing to be called clutch…Bye Bye Robin Ventura’s clutch HR/Single!
Is the HR more clutch than the hit that tied the game?
Like I said above…if your down by 4 in the 6th and hit a Slammer in the 7th to tie, is the GS not more clutch than the later RS/RBI that wins the game?
Clutch should be defind more by it’s total affect in winning the game. the more IMPORTANT hit towards the winning!
And that almost jives with your original statement regarding probability….
You were losing by far worse in the 7th inning when you hit the grand slam than you were in the 9th when you were still tied!
So how does your probability part of this Clutch Metric apply in that situation?
“So to you the game winning hit in a tie game is not clutch because you feel you have to be losing to be called clutch…Bye Bye Robin Ventura’s clutch HR/Single!”
I never said that. I never even alluded to that.
“Is the HR more clutch than the hit that tied the game?” What home run? You can’t just paint everything with a broad brush.
“like I said above…if your down by 4 in the 6th and hit a Slammer in the 7th to tie, is the GS not more clutch than the later RS/RBI that wins the game?” No. One ties the game and one breaks a tie. Remember, a tie game is slightly in the home team’s favor. So if they walk off, the probability goes from around 53% to 100%. Huge difference.
“Cutch should be defind more by it’s total affect in winning the game. the more IMPORTANT hit towards the winning!” You seem to agree with me, yet try to twist my words so it looks like I’m disagreeing with you.
“And that almost jives with your original statement regarding probability….” Right. And….?
“You were losing by far worse in the 7th inning when you hit the grand slam than you were in the 9th when you were still tied! So how does your probability part of this Clutch Metric apply in that situation?” Like I said, a 47% or so shift in probability is huge. But say you weren’t tied, say you were losing by 3 and had a 1% chance to win. The walk off grand slam shifts the WPA 99% So the walkoff hit means more when you’re losing than it does if you’re tied. Tie games are merely a toss up.
The thing we are disagreeing on is this probability factor regarding home team vs away team that really doesn’t apply…
Is a a HR by the Away team that gives them the lead in your tossup (which is NOT a tossup when you add your probablity factor as the Home team still has walkoff advantage) and eventually wins the game more clutch than the Walkoff HR of the home team?
Merely based on the fact that the probability of winning when tied is less for the away team than the home team?
We do agree that any GWH is a clutch hit. Thats not at issue.
But the fact that there were probably other more important hits and more dire situations that may be in play here ESPECIALLY if you think the win probability has any relevance in what is clutch and how much clutch.
If you want to insert Win Probability into this equation then you have to accept that the Win Probability befotre the GS was hit was much lower and therefore more clutch than the guy who got the GWH. Both are clutch but one hit was for more clutch, far more key and way more valuable towards changing the win Probabilty than the one run that won it!
Just answer this:
Could a 1st inning HR count as a high leverage?
And does Longoria’s HR to put the Rays in the postseason also count as a high leverage?
If the the answer to both is yes, then you could be counting a 1st inning HR the same as the game winning HR Longoria hit to put the Rays in the postseason. Which would be ridiculous.
Vinny they would not be counted the same because it’s a sliding scale based on probability of winning. I don’t know if it could be explained anymore than what it has been.
When I go on baseball reference, on David Wright’s page there is his leverage stats, and they have they have listed, high leverage, medium leverage, and low leverage. So, in the examples I’m giving, what category do they fall under? low, medium or high?
“When I go on baseball reference, on David Wright’s page there is his leverage stats, and they have they have listed, high leverage, medium leverage, and low leverage. So, in the examples I’m giving, what category do they fall under? low, medium or high?”
What examples? It would depend on the game itself and I wouldn’t think I have access to that. Win probability would change game to game, pitch to pitch, out to out right?
Vinny please define leverage because thats really the ETHER in this whole discussion…
If that HR in the 1st inning is what won you the game and got you in the playoffs then it sure as hell is as clutch as the9th inning HR that did the same!
Because both were the hit that got them in, and it could be argued the guy in the 9th may have been facing a lesser pitcher than the guy who hit one in the first!
Hitting a HR off Halladay in the 1st is a far tougher and more leveraged (if by leveraged you mean more difficult) act than one hit off Ryan Madsen….Or from a tired Halladay himself pitching for the complete game…
We can debate from now until sunday but without a definition of what constitutes clutch every AB can fit the definition if it means it wins a game.
I’m not saying that all situations are clutch but until someone finds some definition to say what is NOT clutch we are just arguing in circles around the undefined issue!
I am under the assumption that we are talking about the stat “High Leverage” which is already defined based on the probability of winning the game at the time.
“What examples? ”
A 1st inning HR to put the team up 2-1. And Longoria’s HR to put the Rays into the playoffs.
TRS – tied in the 9th and tied in the first would seem to have the same exact leverage if it is probabilty based is what I’m trying to get at here.
If you as the away team have a 47 out of 100 probability of winning in the first the probability doesn’t change 8 innings later if your tied, you still have the same 47 out of 100 probability. Because the other side has not taken or made clear their advantage as being present in reality.
Do the probabilities change as chances are lost? How much does it change per AB (better to use outs maybe although those are not set in stone either you can have more than 27 outs to win a game especially when the score is tied.)?
Does having 20 outs left mean you have a better chance of winning as the away team than only having 15 outs left to win? That woulod suggest that by the 9th inning your chances of winning when tied are far lower than 43% wouldn’t it? (Maybe it is I’m not suggesting otherwise but what determines how that probability gets lower? Outs Left? AB.s made or something else? Doesn’t the other side’s lack of having the lead play into that probability as well?)
Probability doesn’t care about the past or the future which is the main issue I find with the probability argument being used in the discussion of clutch.
Rolling a dice and getting a six you have a one in 6 chance of that happening again. and even if you roll that six 10 times in a row the probability in the next roll is till one in six!
Cause the dice has no memory and neither does the scoreboard!
Thats what I’m getting at here.
You can make predictions of what might happen based on probability but the act that occurs really is not affected or judged based on what is most likely to happen only on what does!
And in that case a HR in the first inning is just as clutch in a probability based clutchness as one hit in the 9th inning!
And by using probability as the metric means that a HR hit by the home team in the 9th to a walkoff would suggest that hit is not clutch because they already had the probability advantage and I’m sure you would not agree with that suggestion!
Your argument is based solely on your personal dislike of Wright. He is a great player and real sports writers back me up. I see no point in arguing with someone who makes up excuses to dislike a player on the team they supposedly are a fan of. If winning is all that matters to you go watch the Yankees.
“I don’t care if he..or anybody for that matter…goes 4 for 4 in 4 innings with 2 HRs and drives in 8 runs, what matters most is the winning the game”
Of course you do so the logical conclusion is to NOT have him on the team because that would make them so much better. Really?
Right. Look, I like David. He is a good man to have on a team. But not to pay 20 million for when you have to use assets wisely. Last year people were saying that there were 5 or 6 THIRD BASEMEN who were better than he was. Now he is King of the Hill? When Seaver was a Met he was a top 5 pitcher in all of baseball every year. People like the guy–I get that. But I do not want my team rewarding likeable. I want them rewarding winning. We all know that one guy on a baseball team cannot win or lose a game (uness he is a starting pitcher), but we can see the difference between the Pujolses and Longorias and Cabreras and Brauns and the like, and David. He just does not inspire the fear and respect in other teams that guys lke that do. Maybe it will click in for him and he will be more accountable when we want him to be. But as things stand, I would not throw big bucks and years at him. The question is not whether you can get a better third baseman to replace him, but whether the resources can be used to build a better overall team.
Can you name one player in the history of MLB that has gotten a game turning hit every time at bat?
Two games in a row the team has lost by more than 5 runs, but you are the smart one that always pin points when DW doesn’t get the team the game winning hit.
Ignore the fact that he has more game winning hits than any player in NY Mets history, you only remember the ones that he doesn’t. Never take into account all that is going on the game, 14 runs to the other team has nothing to do with it, just DW didn’t get a hit when there was a runner on 3rd.
Talk about what other Mets fans do or do not see while you have a blind hatred and an think you know more than the next, when clearly you don’t.
And if he did get those big hits 2 things happen:
The Mets still lose
You claim that those didn’t count since it is only April.
there is really no rush now, due to the team option, but if they are going to do it it absolutely has to happen very soon after the off season to get it locked in before the rest of the off season business gets taken care of.
But, I think it makes a lot of sense mid-year. Plenty to time for him to prove that he is fully back, but still early enough that there is incentive to do something that is team and player favorable (length, cost certainty, and risk mitigation for the player).
The Mets need Wright more than Wright needs the Mets. He is not only the “face of the franchise” (yes overused but he deserves it) but he is a possible hall of famer. This is the player who you don’t let walk away. He is much more important on and off the field than Reyes ever was or will be to any team. Reyes is an injury prone player. Wright was injured last year in a collision not just running around like Reyes does every time. Wright is the leader the Mets will want when their young players come up to the big leagues. I wouldn’t sign the extension right now (that looks desperate) but soon, maybe around the all star break. That would be a great time for good PR (especially if Wright starts the all star game).
you’re a fan of his, you’re not a baseball person so nothing i say will matter.
You’re just his fan, plain and simple. That crazy post of yours gave you away
You should look at these magical baseball things called “statistics”. But then that would shatter your bubble of self-delusion. You know absolutely nothing about baseball. I leave more knowledge in the toilet every morning than you have ever had. Go watch the Yankees and leave us real Mets fans alone.
Are you saying because he’s defending Wright against your blind hatred that makes him NOT a baseball guy?
Many would argue that your selective memory and lack of factual back up would make you NOT a baseball guy.
I think it’s more likely that considering all of us are on a baseball blog at 12:15 on a Thursday means we like baseball and love the Mets. Asssumingly anyway.
Speaking of wins, how many wins would the mets have this year without Wright?How can u hate on your own players?
I’m not saying Wright is not part of making a good team because he is, and as the Mets are constructed now of course they need him, he’s a good player for them. But he’s not the type of player that’s a game changer/going to put you over the top. As a matter of fact he usually gets worse the more a game drags on and the higher the stakes get. If he would have had some kind of highlight reel and got some big hits determining a pennant race or something of that nature than I’d say okay. But he has proven to “most of the time” get worse the higher the pressure is and this team doesn’t need that anymore.
Signing him as a leading man type is a big mistake in my opinion. You know who has the potential do deliver those exciting big hits if the Mets are ever in a pennant race again? Ike Davis.
Again, can you provide ANY stats from this season other than your magical eyes to back up this claim? Any?
Sorry, but in hating Wright, you just turn yourself into a bigger idiot all the time. You twist and contort yourself into fallacious position about how he’s not key, he never gets hits when they matter (except all of the game-winning ones), and then when knowledgeable folk contradict you, you claim they don’t know the game.
Pathetic.
Ike’s career to date clutch stats:
2 out RISP .221/.357/.337, 23 hits, 22 walks, 34 K’s.
Late & close: .221/.300/.381, 25 hits, 14 walks, 35 K’s.
Tie Game: .225/.323/.402, 46 hits, 28 walks, 63 K’s.
Within 1 run: .237/.329/.419, 89 hits, 50 walks, 113 K’s.
Within 2 runs: .268/.357/.446, 134 hits, 69 walks, 137 K’s.
Within 3 runs: .270/.354/.454, 154 hits, 76 walks, 151 K’s.
Within 4 runs: .263/.351/.446, 162 hits, 85 walks, 166 K’s.
With in 5+ runs: .272/.337/.506, 22 hits, 8 walks, 16 K’s.
Ike’s career to date shows a significant progressive upturn in performance the LESS clutch a situation is, not the other way around. Now this is just one full season and can certainly change but as of right now it would be factually untrue to claim that Ike gets better in clutch situations and remember clutch situations can occur at any moment of the game including the first inning because for all you know that could be the only AB you have all game long with anyone OB and it could also be the only AB all game long your entire team has with runners in scoring position so if you don’t get it done then…………………..
Ike also shows a serious platoon split (.477 – .385) in slugging percentage and a much higher strikeout rate which doesn’t bode well in late inning pressure situations due to being able to be countered by a LHP.
Time will tell and at just 25 years old Davis has that time and I’m of the belief that his clutch numbers will flatten out more toward his overall performance but as of right now it remains a question.
Well here’s the question, are those numbers indicative of him struggling in clutch spots or more about his struggles against LHP? Wouldn’t it be fair to assume in a lot of “clutch” ab’s especially close and late he is also facing a LH?
Things like that don’t matter to those who laud “clutch” as an inherent ability. It’s a great baseball point of course, but that exhibits in-depth knowledge, something foreign to certain people.
Hey t agee… I’ve been trying to reach you via email, but I think I must be going into your spam folder. Contact me at GetMetsmerized@aol.com.
those are just silly numbers. if you watch him, you can just tell he has clutch in there, waiting to get out.
“those are just silly numbers.”
Right! I remember in his rookie year, they were talking about it on the broadcast (I think this was etiher in June or July) that all of his HR’s either tied the game or put the Mets in the lead – That’s pretty good from a rookie.
He has also hit a lot of big HR’s to break the game wide open.. Like his HR off Hanson the other day.
Your right, they are just silly little flawed numbers.
Swing and a miss on the sarcasm ball
And Wright led the team in go ahead hits in 07 and 08. 24 in 07 and 30 in 08 but somehow the collapses fall on his shoulders.
Most of those were early in the game. Where he(and the rest of the team) fell short was later on in the game, when they were behind or needed to score some insurance runs.
Getting ahead wasn’t the problem.
His average late and close wasn’t much different than his season or career lines:
.286 .412 .464 .876
Is that for the enitire season? Because if it is, it means nothing because we are only talking about the end of the year.
I don’t have time right now but if you research my name on google for this site and something that would pull it up you can see where I broke down Wright’s AB’s in September. The guy along with some others were offensive monsters in September but ultimately the team did not get it done. Much more due to the fact that with all those hits from the middle of the order the top of the order was awful.
I know he had good numbers. But the question is, in the big spots of the game late in the season, how did he do?
If you are saying he’s clutch, then he would have to have some really big hits in september, right? What were they? How many HR’s did he hit in Sept late in the game to put the Mets in the lead? What about all those series against the Phillies? Did he drive in a lot of big runs late in the game to put us ahead or bring us back in it in Sept?
because if he’s clutch, he would have to have a bunch of those type of hits right?
i think if we have to dig this deep, go out of our way to scrutinize his past stats this closely, hold the magnifying glass this long and search really, really hard to try and find if Wright is clutch or not tells you everything you need to know. It does not exist because he’s the most over-rated player this franchise has ever had and one of the biggest choke artists in franchise history. But he’s liked.
Meanwhile most Mets fans in the blink of an eye can bring up a whole host of players who’ve either had big hits in important post-season related spots or have had reputations of being go to guys, clutch hitters, and players who rose in the big spots regardless of talent level.
Wright is not one of them. Up to this point Wright to me is amazing in that it’s uncanny how much he folds when the pressure is at it’s apex, how much he succumbs both offensively and defensively whenever the stakes were at their highest. I mean it’s not even 50/50, he falls flat big time in most important spots more than any other Met than I can remember
No those were throughout the entire game, early, middle and late. 30 times he came to the plate with the team trailing and he got the hit that tied the game or put the team ahead. 24 times in 2007. He had 4 walkoff hits in 2006 and a walkoff sac fly. You could say since 2008 he has been terrible late in games in a position to tie or give the team the lead but from 2005-2008 he was very good. Reyes on the other hand has been worse in those spots, never once had a walkoff hit in his career. Ike Davis who you said hit most or all of his HR’s by June or July to tie or give his team the lead were early parts of games in 2010. He was horrible in the 8th and 9th innings. His only good innings were the 3rd and 7th. Again I don’t know how anyone can blame the offense for not coming back after the bullpen is constantly blowing 8th and 9th inning leads. Especially when the offense as already put up 6,7,8 runs. You score that many runs and lose it’s not on the offense. We scored exactly the same amount of runs as the Phillies in 08 tied for 2nd in the NL. The only difference was Lidge was a perfect 42-42 in save chances and we blew about 30.
This.
Simply because since we were scoring enough runs in the early innings to win the game – and in about 30 opportunities the BP coughed up the lead – you cannot expect those same hitters to take back the lead again in 1 or 2 innings left. Most batters don’t consistently come out hitting 3 for 4 or 5 in most games.
Your still not telling me how he did in the big spots in the game late in the year during 07 and 08. Untill you can show during the collapses where he had huge hits late in the game, then I’m not changing my postion on this.
The numbers you show me don’t tell me when in the game they happen, or when in the season they happen. So, what do they prove? Nothing. And with Ike Davis, obviously how we look at a rookie who just came up, it a little different than how we look at a veteran who has played in tight playoff races and playoff games in his career, right?
And what does Jose Reyes have to do with this anyway? He has nothing to do with this. Why are you bringing him up for?
As for 2008, yes the bullpen was bad, but you can’t ignore the offense disapearing late in the game when you need them the most. There was one game where the Mets went out and scored 7 runs in the 1st four innings, but then got shut out for the next 9 innings(it went into extras) and lost the game. Sure part of it was the pitching, but how can you ingore getting shutout for 9 innings? The offense isn’t responsible at all? Come on!
The Mets blew 30 games that year because of two reasons: One was that the bullpen was awful. and two was that the offense would jump ahead early, but would never add on to the lead, which allowed the other team back into the game.
Disagree. If the offense puts up 7 runs in the early innings that’s more than enough to win the game. In that example the offense did their job, the BP did not.
If the starting pitching gives up 7 runs and the offense only manages to score back 6, you think it’s the fault of the offense they couldn’t score 8?
Sure would be nice in both examples if the offense could put up 8 runs to win but the reality is…more like the pitching failed that game – not the offense.
Depends on your interpretation of a big spot. Just how many opportunites did he have in what you deem a big spot. We all know the Chicago game but how many more of those were there where he failed? Look at the game logs, I see in those logs that he was in the middle of everything. A game that I was at in Sept on a sunday afternoon against the Braves he hits 2 HR’s and drives in 3 of the 4 runs in a 4-2 game and the bullpen gives up 5 in the 9th, you can’t tell me that wasn’t a clutch performance in a pennant race. BTW I’m not trying to change your position on this. You can take whatever position you want. I just think it’s unfair to complain about the offense especially Wright mainly for not tacking on when they scored 6-7 runs by the 5th, 6th innings. When they scored those runs and the starters or relievers blew those leads the last thing I was complaining about was the offense. I was thinking about blowing a 5-2 lead and nearly losing a game they led 7-1. I think about those september games that we went into the 9th inning with a lead and Manuel making 5 trips to the mound trying to get 3 outs to preserve a win.
About Ike. You brought him up not me. I would’ve never mentioned his name but you tried to make it seem like his HR’s were clutch saying they were either tying or puting the team ahead. Those were early too, his 8th and 9th inning numbers were nothing to brag about nearly half of his 9th inning at bats resulted in a strikeout. I wasn’t trying to compare them. he’s still way too early in his career to say whether or not he’s a clutch performer. 2010 other than his walkoff he was terrible in the clutch and last year was wiped out too early.
Why bring up Jose? Because again I think it’s unfair for Wright to be known as a choker and a guy who was worse in those spots avoids that mantra. Reyes was not only bad in those spots down the stretch in both years, he was bad in every spot down the stretch in both years. Alex calls Wright a choker but his excuse for Reyes is that he’s a leadoff and that’s not his job but we’ve seen leadoff hitters come up huge in big spots. Derek Jeter, Pedroia when he led off, Rickey Henderson, our own Lenny Dykstra. That’s a BS excuse.
To me, Wright hasn’t been good in big spots since 2008 not in 2008. Some people even say he wasn’t clutch in 06 but he had 5 walkoff RBI’s, one of them off of the greatest closer of all time. People also forget that in the Louie Castillo dropped pop up game Wright again beat Mariano with a 2B that put the Mets up to begin with but it’s not clutch because Castillo dropped the 3rd out.
Nope. I knew he was being sarcastic.
Personally I think with his option there is time to wait and see how the season unfolds for Wright before getting into contract extension talks. It’s hard to put a parameter on when is the best time but if I had to guess I would think depending on what Wright does the rest of the way they would wait until at least the All-Star Break before entering talks if they do at all.
Again, for me even though I am a Wright fan I would not want to rush to signing him to show the team has no financial distress. I want it to be because it is a good baseball decision for the team and for that I 1st would like for Wright to show last season was a fluke.
I like David just as much as I liked Jose but I just don’t know what to expect or hope for anymore. Too many “franchise” players switch teams wanting to opt for free agency and too many teams don’t attempt re-signing them to avoid the same activity.
One has to get real and accept that loyalty is a two-way street and many from both sides are taking the side road instead. As far as the Mets, though they stonewalled negotiations with Jose’s agent, even if they didn’t, we don’t know how far either party would have gone to reach out to the other.
We know David enjoys being a fan favorite, however, we also don’t know how amiable the relationship between David and the organization is any more. Omar is gone and Sandy and David do not have the same long-standing business relationship, Fred Wilpon down-graded him in that interview and David kind of showed up Jeff Wilpon with that pubic disdain for the underdog tee shirts. And the front office talk about the Mets rebuilding does not include saying they see David having an important role in providing veteran leadership (or something to that nature) for the youngsters coming up. So if I was a betting man, I would probably place my money on both wanting to part ways.
I agree that the mets FO probably wants to part ways with David. Emotion does not enter into their decisions. I also think that they do not value offensive production as much as some other franchises. You can cobble together an offense that will score a decent number of runs. You cannot cobble together a dominant pitching staff. With a dominant starting rotation, you do not need a great offense. Look at the Pujols contract. Can you see the mets ever paying some guy a huge salary for five years beyond his projectable peak? I can’t. Look at A Rod’s ridiculous money. This guy is going to make 200 million bucks at the end of the line when he is spending a good part of the time on a DL somewhere. I mean, the mets have a second banana like Bay who is choking the life out of them. They are not going to pay David.
Like Clint Eastwood said in “Unforgiven:” ‘Deserves got nothing to do with it.’ Virtue is its own reward. Big contracts are quite another story.
Its simple folks, Wright is our franchise player, and he should be retire as a met. Some of his records then will stay probably 20 years . Mr David Wright is our leader . And really everyone saying he should be traded or something or let him go… You are first of all no good at Baseball and most likely you are not a Mets fan
I think they need to do it. This franchise has had precious few long-term heroes, and we have virtually no history to call our own. It’s the exact same reason I thought they should have made a serious offer to Reyes, even one which ultimately wouldn’t have measured up to Miami’s. The organization has no problem paying respect to other team’s guys, so I think Wright deserves the benefit of the doubt here. Even if this isn’t the smartest baseball move, it’s a smart move for the Mets. I never wanted to see Jose in another uniform, and I sure as hell don’t want to see David in one.
I’m still in the “too early” camp. If he he plays most of the season at a high level, then I’m all for a 3 or 4 year deal with a club option and a bunch of incentives. But, lets wait until August or so.
I don’t have a problem with waiting but you do run the risk of him having a great season and the price increasing.
I don’t think Wright is at a “buy-low” point in his career. I mean, if you think that a Jeter deal with a couple incentive-basd options will get it done, then I could see it. But I don’t think that’s the case. I think we’re looking at four years guaranteed with two options. The price might be a little higher if he has a killer year, but nothing too drastic. Maybe $15 mil a year if he signs now, $18 if he rakes? If the deal could be for 6 total years if everything works out, I think I’d rather take the chance of spending a total of $18 or so more by waiting than blowing a lot more if he doesn’t get over all these nagging injuries.
You run a risk either way. I don’t mind shelling out a little (of the Wilpons’) cash for some extra assurances we aren’t anchored to another Jason Bay deal.
Well said. Better than mine. I went to a concert last night and had to get up at 6 for work, so I’m off my game. Already spilled coffee on myself. These things happen.
My point was since there’s a risk one way or the other, I’d rather pay a little more for an assurance than risk a lot more on a gamble.
I said the same thing on Reyes after 2010… So I understand the position. In fact I am not even locked on the idea of keeping Wright. Much of it depends on the terms. I guess what I am saying is to go ahead and start having some conversations, those aren’t binding. See if he is willing to take a team friendly deal at something like 4 years (counting next year) and 70-75M. If he is then that too is a pretty safe contract. If he is not then yeah, you wait.
Ya, no problem there. Go ahead and start a dialogue and set some parameters. No hamr in seeing what he is thinking.
That’s why I asked the other day if they could go ahead and pick up the option and begin extension discussions. To me that would send a sign to Wright and the fans that they are interested in bringing him back but it doesn’t really do anything they weren’t going to do regardless.
just the fact that so many posters want him extended,yet the Mets will delay and delay is very troubling to me as a Met fan.They hide behind the excuse that if the player does not produce great numbers for every year of a long term contract he is not worth signing.That is not how long term contract works.If u get 3 good years and 2 ok years out of a 5 year deal that is a successful deal.This front office acts like unless they get a guarantee he will be an all star every year of the deal, they can’t make the deal.Imho this is absurd reasoning and more proof of an ownership that has no clue how successful teams win.
I don’t buy that for a second, especially in the instance of Wright and Reyes, also. Wright’s coming off a three-year decline and a year lost to injury. Reyes couldn’t stay off the DL at all his last years with the Mets. Those aren’t the players you sign to long term deals. The Mets aren’t looking for a guarantee of All-Star play, they’re looking for more of a guarantee to play, period. What good is a long term extension if half of it is spent on the DL? Then you’d be paying Wright $80-$100 million so Cedeno can play?
“just the fact that so many posters want him extended,yet the Mets will delay and delay is very troubling to me as a Met fan.”
Actually, I find that encouraging. They are doing what is good for the franchise rather than what is popular with a fickle fanbase.
Remember: the masses are idiots.
“They hide behind the excuse that if the player does not produce great numbers for every year of a long term contract he is not worth signing.That is not how long term contract works.If u get 3 good years and 2 ok years out of a 5 year deal that is a successful deal.This front office acts like unless they get a guarantee he will be an all star every year of the deal, they can’t make the deal.”
No. There is no proof of what you have said.
Hasn’t this franchise been burned enough by paying guys for what they did a few years ago?
Is it unreasonable to make sure that Wright’s productivity is sustainable rather than just a hot start?
Good point on the masses, otherwise Manny would still be here and signed long-term.
and of course, the legend of gritty mchudson.
Extend him NOW, build around him , he works hard and plays hard, when healthy he is the best 3d baseman in baseball. Longoria could dream about having a season as good as Wrights best. He has never come close. Look it up In first 4 full seasons
R RBI H HR SB SO
Wright 423 449 742 113 86 459
Longoria 341 401 573 113 34 479
That being said shouldn’t you get contracts based on what you will do instead of have done? What do the last 4 years look like?
Who gives a crap if Wright is a good guy. It doesn’t matter if Wright hits 30 home runs and drives in 110 runs for the next 12 years. Deserves? What are we in 5th grade? The Wilpon’s decide if Wright gets a new contract with the Mets.
Performance has nothing to do with their decision. Three years of watching a floundering team wallowing deeper and deeper into misery and people still don’t get it. The Wilpon’s are not trying to field a contending team. What is Zimmerman’s contract? Adrian Beltre’s? The Wilpon’s are going to give Wright this kind of money? David Wright is gone.
Daniel Murphy is our new 3rd baseman. Justin Turner plays 2nd.
Yeah if there is one thing we know about the Wilpons it’s that they never spend any money.
It’s a simple question for me.
Are the Wilpons going to spend 16 Million on Wright in 2013?
Or 1 Million on Wright in 2013?
Answer: 1 Million
And to avoid looking like the dosh-bags they are they will have Alderson trade Wright mid season.
Right, as I said the Wilpons never spend any money and the fact that they did waste money on guys like Castillo, Perez and Bay proves that point. Ugh.
Yup they didn’t sign off on that Santana contract either.
I have to laugh at Xtreeme’s comment on Wright insisting that he does more than he has ever done before in order to be extended….
Smacks of the same things we heard regarding Reyes where he too had to totally surpass himself before he was resigned and despite the fact he did he did not get a contract.
As for Wright himself I believe he should be extended but I do not believe he will. More likely they will move him at the deadline (This year or next) and or wait until this year is done and talk extention in conjunction with activating his option year.
Does he deserve to be extended I believe so but I also know that Sandy does seem to have a soft spot for Murphy and if the experiment with Murphy at 2nd fails it makes it that much more likely he will trade Wright and put Murphy at the hot corner and hope to get a gaggle of kids for Wright.
If it is dependent on him hitting 38 HRs like X suggests forget it!
He’s Gone!
I just don’t think the sample size is large enough to determine what Sandy will do in this situation.
I’m wondering if 2 trips to the DL for the 3rd straight year had something to do with Reyes not getting an extension.
That’s because all you care about is stats. Made no mention of how the FIRST qualification I said was the games played. He has to show he’s healthy and can actually play. I never questioned Reyes’s talent, or what he can do when he played, I always questioned his ability to stay on the field, which is far more important when you talk of six-year contracts. If six-year deals even enter the discussion, obviously the players is talented enough.
Wright has missed games 3 out of the last 4 years as did Reyes!
Only difference is Wright threw one good year inbetween and Reyes had 3 consecutive two of which were due to the same injury and a Thyroid problem.
Yo put so much emphasis on games played I have to ask would you rather have Wright/Reyes or Seatle’s Suzuki who played 161 games and pretty much did squat compared to both?
Stl Jay also played more game…More valuable than those two?
Really why sould how often you play overshadow what you do when you are there?
Are you truly saying that you wold not want a guy who hit 70 HRs if he could do that despite the fact he only played in 80 games?
You wouldn’t take those HRs and use your bench to fill in the gaps?
Seems a bit foolish to trump performance with attendance if you ask me!
If a guy was so injury prone that he could only play 80 games a year, then no one would give that guy a 6 year deal. And spare me 70 home runs a year. You want to have a discussion, then have a legitimate one.
Hey your the one who used counting stats as the basis for judgement not me!
I gave you other REAL LIFE statistical examples to answer with…
I NOTICE YOU CHOSE TO IGNORE THOSE OPPORTUNITIES!
I wonder why?
Suzuki or Jay both played more games than Reyes…you have to take one of the three which one do you choose?
Then tell us how important games played was and what factor trumped your games played parameter.
Then to top it off you’re comparing a SS, a RFer and a CFer. Why don’t you ask if he would rather have Tulowitski or Reyes instead of an againg 38 year old Suzuki or a 4th OFer Jay.
Ahhh I guess you are taking over to tell us all what X’s position is?
Is that You X?
We are arguing about appearance over performance!
Doesn’t matter where they play does it when you argue on a restricted subject your talking about!
You keep bringing up my past statements regarding Delgado vs Ike which was made on that situation alone and not the greater subject we are discussing here!
That comparison was Ike gave the similar accomplishment as Delgado did with fewer games.
Not that Delgado was so much better than Ike in his fewer appearances!
Jeez. Fine. Suzuki, Jay or Reyes for a six year deal? How about none of them? Is that good enough for you? Reyes’s health goes against it and Jay’s not good enough yet. Suzuki’s just a wild card. Maybe last season was an abberration, or maybe he’s done. Right now none of them get a six year deal.
It seems you can’t sperate fantasy from reality. Who in their right mind would give Jon Jay a six year deal now? Why would you even bring him up?
You have to sign one of them….
Your answer is just running away from the qestion because you know to answer will either force you to abandon your point about games played and go against it or leave you vulnerable to making an answer you know would be rediculous by anyone’s standards!
There is no fantasy involved there X…
All the data is real fact!
The only thing that is unrealistic is the notion you HAVE to sign one of them!
And it is put there to test your committment to your own statement regarding playing more games is more valuable than what you do in the games you play!
By refusing to answer you are proving that missing games is not worse than missing performance!
If it were true you would have selected the other two candidates not named reyes!
You refused!
No, just the opposite. This isn’t the fourth grade. By not choosing to sign any of them, I’m holding strong to my convictions on what a mega-deal is worth. I don’t HAVE to sign any of them when the reasons I don’t commit to long term deals is an affliction each one of them has.
That’s the most childish form of word-twisting. You put people in no-win situations, then call them out when they don’t win. None of those guys get six-year deals. None of them.
That’s like me asking you to choose the sum of 2+2. You have to pick 3, 5 or 6. You HAVE to pick one of them. Otherwise I win because you’re running away from the answer.
No your just doing your usual routine of CHANGING THE SUBJECT from the ORIGINAL one you got caught in a quandry in (Attendance vs Performance) and now changing the subject to something about Mega Deals!
Cowardice!
Your the one twisting the subject (words) to something it never was because you didn’t feel comfortable sticking to the topic at hand!
You said being on the field is more important than performance!
I gave you the opportunity to prove what you said by giving you examples of good attendance players who did not do as much as reyes in less attendance…
And now you want to talk abot Mega Deals instead and I”m the one twisting right?
This is why we have the battles that we do!
Because whenever someone DOES attempt to have a reasonable debate with you the second you get into troble you try to change the sbject and lay it all on yor opponent!
And now this is where you call me a lunatic and the insults go back and forth right?
Select from those three (ANY CONTRACT I DON’T CARE HOW LONG HOW MUCH) then tell us why you took that guy based on attendance over performance! Or why you didn’t!
No, you lack the reading comprehension and then start the twisting. I said this at 12:44pm, over three hours ago. ” If six-year deals even enter the discussion, obviously the players is talented enough.” Go look for yourself. You either didn’t understand it or you ignored it and hoped other people reading would bypass it also so you’d look like the big winner. You’re making yourself look like anything but, and I’m not even working all that hard at it.
“If six-year deals even enter the discussion, obviously the players is talented enough.”
It’s not attendance vs. performance for six year deals, it’s attendance vs. no attendance. When six year deals are floated, the player is obviously GOOD enough. Talent and performance is NEVER in question, because no one would ever even think of giving the likes of Jon Jay a six-year deal. Is it becoming clearer now?
First comment made that started this
Not yet. Wright needs to earn that extension and a three-year decline and some injuries are the forefront of his identity. If he plays 145-150 games, hits .300/.400/.500 with 38 home runs, then yes, both sides should try to negotiate. But not until he proves he deserves it. Right now, he hasn’t proved it. – XtreemIcon
Not a whiff of talk about length of contract!
XtreemIcon April 19, 2012 at 12:44 pm
That’s because all you care about is stats. Made no mention of how the FIRST qualification I said was the games played. He has to show he’s healthy and can actually play. I never questioned Reyes’s talent, or what he can do when he played, I always questioned his ability to stay on the field, which is far more important when you talk of six-year contracts. If six-year deals even enter the discussion, obviously the players is talented enough.
AFTER the fact I asked you who would you rather have out of guys who played most games or the guy who played in fewer and did more…
And you PUNTED to run away from the question!
As usual!
You really are a clinical study in pathology. It’s actually sad. You can’t just ever admit you were wrong and back down like a man. They say eventually people start to believe their own lies. You must have been that case study. My argument stands on it’s own merit and yours falls under it. No two ways about it.
Yep as I predicted….Got your back to the wall so I mst have some mental problem!
So Typical of you X!
So Typical! I even predicted it 4 posts ago!
Always the same progression of events with you…
I say this, You are asked to prove, You try to change the subject and when that doesn’t work it’s right onto thre insanity defense!
Yes it is a clinical study!
Of how you argue EVERY point you ever make and where it always winds up at the end when you get caught in your own bull!
This is why you get yourself into ridiculous battles with everybody. You have 2 different opinions about the same subject. Speak out of both sides of your mouth and then blame others for starting a flame war that you feel you need to finish. Notice a different take on an identical topic,
Metsie October 22, 2010 at 10:35 am
The biggest problem with these NUMBERS is the fact that it doesn’t really account for what the player truly contributes.
They take into account what he contributes when he is on the field but the player has to be one the field!
Sure Delgado might look better than Ike when you just look at the numbers. But Delgado couldn’t stay on the field! Ike can!
SO who cares if Delgado does more in 75 At bats if thats all he gives you in a season?
Ike is young, WILL get better and increase those numbers, and he will be on the field way more than Delgado was!
So I don’t care what his WAR is. It’s much better than a guy picking splinters out of his butt or riding a stationary bicycle because he is too hurt to give me those WAR numbers!
I am assuming that the only response to that question is that over time people can change their stance. Otherwise this is inditing.
NO because the key difference is Delgado wasn’t generating the numbers despite his absence….In the case of Reyes he was!
The fact that Delgado could hit 30+ HRs was meaningless if he couldn’t get in enough games to do that!
Note Fonzie never posts the entire discussion just excepts out of context!
The fact that Delgado was (when healthy) a better player than Ike is moot if he’s not healthy!
But in THIS case the fact that Reyes was NOT healthy doesn’t matter becuase he was still better and did more than guys who WERE healthy!
There is absoloutly no conflict in what I said back then!
Delgado was NOT better than Ike in actuality but only in potential!
Hence what I said!
Reyes was better than the healthy IN ACTUALITY!
Different situation and therefore a different assessment!
But Fonzie thinks taking things out of context will fool others into thinking I am inconsistent!
I copied it word for word as you typed it.
So if Delgado played in 126 games like Reyes did last year, would you then take Delgado over a full season of Ike Davis. Obviously Delgado only played 26 games in his last Met season so you’re not gonna take 26 games over a full year of Ike but would you take 126 games of Delgado over a full season of Ike? Would you still take Reyes’ 36 games in 2009 over a full season of Jay and Suzuki? How about Tejada? Would you take the 95 games Reyes’ averaged his last 3 years as a Met over a full year of Tejada?
BTW How did that team who choked 2 straight years, I mean missed the playoffs by one game 2 straight years turn out after that? What was the teams fortunes since? Mr keep putting bandaids on a team with no heart or balls that choked away a 7 game lead with 17 games left and a 4 game in the loss with 9 left cause they couldn’t beat the Natonals or Marlins. Maybe if we had a 7 game lead with 7 to play we would’ve had a shot.
Yes and none of thecontext around it…
That conversation was aboput how much better Delgado’s WAR was which wold have been fine if he was replacing someone not being replaced which was the point at the time!
it was a comparison of Delgado’s WAR compared to Davis’!
But you left all that oput didn’t you and left out the link as well!
We all know why!
No I had one opinion about Delgado in regards to the topic of Ike!
I never once said Delgado should have been dumped at the time he was hurt!
But you keep trying mr Blow It all UP after missing the playoffs by one game!
the only thing reyes did last year that surpassed himself was have an abnormally high BA. everything else was about the same, or a little off, from his previous better years.
And after 4000 or so ML ABs, I would not bet the farm that he suddenly is going to keep hitting 50 points higher than his career norm for BA!
Agreed, if anything the Marlins are bought high. It’s just not realistic to think that Reyes “figured” things out last year in his contract season. Either he bought into Huddgens teaching and changed some of his approach (as Jose gave credit himself) or he had a career year.
Why not just sell high on Wright & fill the badly needed holes in our system and on the big league front? I love Wright, but business is business.
Well kind of hard YET to sell high. First of all most teams would not trade their best prospects in April and most teams would not consider him “cured” after 12 games either.
If trading Wright means a long-term improvement greater than what Wright himself can supply, then sign me up. I still think his trade value is very low, though He needs more than two weeks to put the last three years behind him.
Classic case of paralysis by analysis.I wish one of you guys who wants Wright gone would tell me who the replacement is for the next 3-5 years.Please don’t say Daniel Murphy.Murphy is a sideshow attraction.Name the guy you are going to get who will average 25 and 100 ribeyes amd bat .280 plus.I’m waiting.
This.
Remember the other day when they walked Wright to get to Ike? And Ike hit that HR?
Anyone think they’ll be many cases where they walk Murphy to do that?
I like Murph but he does not have the same upside Wright has.
Could trade for a 3rd base prospect but that’s no guarantee you’re going to get a younger version of DWright either. Could live with a bit less production out of your 3rd baseman if it can be made up elsewhere. Jury is still out on Ike and Duda, even though I believe Ike at least, will be solid.
Yes. LETS GO METS.
I agree with you JoeD.
There will always be those Wright detractors, I won’t call them haters cause I can’t read into a person’s heart, who take the last 2 1/2 years, injuries included to paint his career.
He was not as good as he could of been but he seems to getting by the concussion syndrome that affected him and his “allergy” to inside pitches but I believe that he has turned the corner.
I want to see David retire as a Met, why not?
I say if he continues to hit for the next month, he did real good against some good pitching in Atl, Wash and Phil for those nay sayers out there.
I say why not reward a good, AS player that has been developed in our system with a 5 year, with 2 option years at mutually acceptable numbers and stats with a proviso that when he is done he comes to work with Mets in any capacity he wants and they approve.
I agree with many who point out the lack of a “career Met” player in Queens, cause here is the perfect candidate at this time of fan dis-interest and perceived “whether right or wrong” financial means to keep our players.
He is the perfect face for this team, he has accepted his role in the clubhouse, has not forced himself into any position with his team mates that is not comfortable.
Time is ripe for David Wright, #5 to become that 1st home grown player to wear the same name on the front for his entire Met career.
Too bad Jose left, partially his and partially Mets especially SA, cause imagine those two retiring as Mets for a career as Bagwell and Biggio did; and Houston didn’t have the resources that NY has but owenership and FO has screwed this up in past and needs to make this right by fans and David, despite the penny pinchers in mgmt.
OK, will admit David hasn’t had a real clutch hit since the 2009 World Baseball Classic.
Well considering the Mets have not been in a pennant race since 2008 does any of the Mets have a true clutch hit since?
Have we now limited the definition of Clutch so finely that only situations that help you make the playoffs count?
Truth is we have had PLENTY of clutch hits in the last few years just not enough of them or clutch opportunities to be able to get them.
You know if you narrow the definition of a clutch situation hard enogh you actually CAN make Clutch not exist!
But not because it doesn’t but because your refusing to see it as such!
I am just basing my comment on this:
“OK, will admit David hasn’t had a real clutch hit since the 2009 World Baseball Classic.”
If that is indeed true then no one on the team has.
Trs just to be clear that was aimed at that whole premise of thinking not really directed at you…
If you limit Clutch to the last out of any game that results in the win that gets you in the playoffs then there MIGHT be one Clutch hit every 20 years!
It’s rediculous to limit clutch to such a narrow definition.
I have no issues weighting clutch in those situations more than say a No Out HR that wins the game, but both are clutch, Both carry with it the same pressure, Both require the same focus and I happen to believe thats as true in the 7th inning as it might be in the 9th!
Until someone can show me some factor that changes the pressure based on amount of game left to play which is impossible since game duration, innings and outs are not limited in any way or standard for any game!
Most people think there are only 27 outs but thats wrong the second you go into extra innings.
Some make their assesment based on 9 innings but we all have seen a 27 inning game and in those cases isn’t the HR hit in the 9th to tie the game just as much clutch as the one hit in the 27th inning to win it? IS one hit really possible without the other?
To me the only way to define what was a clutch situation in any game is after the game is over and you see which PA was the key to the game!
Then award the player for being successful in that key moment!
But that goes against the grain of most because they want clutch to be about pressure which no human being other than the batter himself and the pitcher that faces him can truly quantify!
making the whole concept of calling one clutch and one not a useless excersize!
It’s why I say Clutch is about the probability of scoring a run (in any inning) and your pass or fail based on how high the scoring probability is!
Scoring a guy on third may not be harder than scoring one from 2nd so a guy who scores a guy from 2nd or 1st had a bigger clutch moment than the guy who had the runner on 3rd. And only after the significance of that run can be determined (after the game) will we be able to say which was REALLY the clutch hit and which was not.
Not saying that method is correct but it sure works better than any other method described in this comment section I have seen.
Actually you are not going to find one stat that measures clutch well. It’s really a combination of many different stats that one should look at over a period of time to help compare clutch of one player to another.
If you look at BARISP, BARISP2/O, High Leverage, Late and Close, BA within one run, etc and they are all within a standard variation of each other and they are all very similar to his normal stats is the player “clutch” or just a good player? Shouldn’t clutch have more to do with rising above the occasion? Like I asked yesterday was Jordan clutch because he hit all those game winning shots or was he just a great player to start with?
Your not going to find ANY stat because Clutch for all intents and purposes has no definition set to track!
Until you set what is clutch sit and what is not there is no way to judge results of those situations no one seems to be able to define!
All I am suggesting here is we find some definition and then from that we can create a metric that will show who is clutch and who is not but you can’t do that until you suggest what is a clutch situation and what is not!
Using my definition you can use RISP to a degree but only as a component to whatever clutch weight we define.
ie
If a single that scores a run from 3rd with one out in the 9th is weighted clutch 1
and the same single that scores a runner on 2nd in the same situation = Clutch 2
Or a runner on 1st Clutch=3
What does it weight in the 8th and 7th innings?
The problem isn’t that we could not create a Clutch metric the problem is no one wants to define what clutch is to be able quantify it in regards to what situation is more clutch than another!
All those stats your looking at COULD be clutch weighted by taking that clutch amplifier (as yet undefined) and applying it to those stats.
But better would be to create a counting stat of CAB (Clutch ABs)
Take his BA and RISP stats in those Abs and see what he has just in those situations.
But until we define the situations we need to look at the result in we are just pissing in the wind saying one guy is clutch and another is not!
Instead of having an unproductive conversation of who is clutch and who is not basing it on a act that isn’t defined I propose we define it!
I have given mine but there seems to be no consensus from anyone else!
One says win Probability which I shot down yesterday.
Another seems to think pressure and Playoffs are only thing relevant.
We are all debating 50 different clutch definitions and most of those are apples being compared to oranges!
Like I said Metsie, you go right ahead. Between all of those stats I have enough to make my own decisions. Regardless of the measure we came up with there would still be flaws. I would consider a single down 1 in the 9th inning with 2 outs just as clutch as an RBI single in the 5th that gave you the lead.
Well TRS what I’m trying to get from you is what makes both of those clutch, what do they have in common so a common denominator can be found.
Once we know what is common to all CLUTCH hits we can figure out what clutch really is.
Like I have said previously my definition of clutch doesn’t care about inning, score, or outs.
Hitting a HR in the 1st inning that gives you a lead you never lose is as clutch as the walkoff HR in the 9th is! if KEY PLAYS are truly more relevant in regards to clutch.
Both were the key hits of the game and the guy who is more clutch is the guy who has the most key hits on the season!
But I define clutch not so much based on importance of the situation as I deem ALL situations important to the results of the game!
Can’t get the game winning hit unless the rest of the game things happened to put you in that situation in the first place!
So my idea of clutch is any PA where you have a good chance to score a run and do so!
How CLUTCH that was is dependent on how good of an opportunity you had to do so, what the max you could have achieved was and how the result compares to those two parameters.
A guy with no one one hits a HR it is a very clutch hit! All HRs are clutch hits!
Scoring one of two runners with a hit is also clutch, Not as clutch as scoring BOTH or hitting a HR but still a clutch hit!
Just because some Pitcher or future act makes that act seem less important in the grand scheme and result of the game does not mean it was a meaningless situation or that there was any less pressure than some other situation that might happen later!
Clutch is about taking advantage of opportunities to score a run….
Neiother inning out or score has any relevance in my definition of clutch!
You come up with a guy on base and score him that was a clutch Ab!
And if we defined clutch to be that it would be REAL easy to see who is more clutch than someone else!
Just take the BAwROB mash it up with RBI vs POTENTIAL RBI in those situations and you have your clutch metric!
To me that is much different than “clutch”. Those are just big hits that could or could not have a high degree of pressure attached.
Prove a guy hitting in the 9th with no one on has more pressure than a guy who has the bases loaded in the 5th!
Can you?
Of course not!
In fact a guy in a tied game in the 9th and no one on has no more pressure on him than that guy who came up with the bases loaded in the 5th in fact he probably has less because if he didn’t fail in that situation there is no tied game in the 9th to be so hung up on the importance of!
And jst to add if the same guy who succeeded in the 5th came up in the 9th he sure would not feel any more pressure to succeed where others had not!
TR,
Was just trying to add a little levity to the conversation. Didn’t mean it to come across as a comment about David’s ability in key situations.
Joe
I didn’t take it as a slap against Wright. Just more into the discussion on what is clutch. If his last true clutch hit was then then obviously the entire team wouldn’t have any either.
I am not even commenting on this thread…
This comment reminds me of that commercial where the girl calls the ex to tell him she is giving him the silent treatment.
……………………………….. Again, The mets put the pieces, didn’t win with beltran, reyes and delgado. What makes any mets fan sure that we will win with this guy who’s the bigger choker?
Trade him for more prospects and finish stocking the minors..
Couldn’t resist could you? LOL.
By the way I am willing to admit that Delgado and Beltran are more clutch than Wright. Can you show even one example of how Reyes is more clutch? The guy tanked every time it mattered. No matter how much you dislike Wright you can’t ignore Reyes’ tendencies when the game or season was on the line.
TRS not that I agree with Alex on Wright’s clutch (truth is he is average in that category just as his BA is average for Big bats in the MLB)
But in regards to reyes what are we basing this lack of clutch on?
Is it because he didn’tdrive IN the runs?
How many times was he the runner who scored that clutch run?
Does that count?
As far as how clutch someone is and who to keep I would introduce both of you to Alex Rodriguez! Guy has choked in more Playoffs than you can count but is that because he isn’t a clutch hitter?
One of the reasons he got so many Playoff opportunities to fail in was because of all his clutch hits during the regular season yet for some reason he still gets the UN-CLUTCH label based on a very small sample of what he has done for his team.
They wouldn’t even be there without him!
Again, I do not believe clutch is only driving in runs. If you are Jose Reyes and there are 2 outs and you are down one in the bottom of the 9th your job is not to get out. Unfortunately for every September that mattered Jose failed during that span.
And if there is one out it isn’t just as important to not make an out?
Is it really any more important than at any other time when your behind in a game?
I certainly don’t think so….
Is the team more desperate in that situation?
If lets say thats true on a scale of 1-10 if being down by a run with two outs is a 10 then what is the clutch value of the following:
single
double
triple
HR
Now tell me what they are worth with only one out?
Say you only tie the game…Now you realize (after the fact) that that was not your last out in the game.
Do you reduce that 10 to a 8?
If not then how can the GWH be a bigger clutch hit with one out than the one that tied with 2 outs?
I think you are defining big hit where as to me clutch is supposed to be more of a measure of how you perform under pressure. Obviously there would be more pressure on a batter in the 9th inning with 2 outs down 1 than there would be in the 4th inning down one. Doesn’t mean the RBI single in the 4th is any less important, just that the batter most likely didn’t feel as much pressure as one would down to their last out.
How much pressure can you ascertain about any AB?
Does the HR in the 7th when your behind have any less pressure than one in the 9th?
You can’t WILL yourself to hit a HR in either case and players need to take every Ab as an important one!
They do!
They don’t cramp up because it’s the 9th inning.
And you wouldn’t be that cramed up if you got the job done earlier!
so every Ab is just as important as any in the 9th and if thats not the case it is due to a lack of clutch hitting earlier in the game!
TR, wright is known to be what? a run producer right? reyes is known as what? a playmaker, a game changer type hitter… he’s a leadoff, how many leadoff hitters are known to be run producers? i mean, even you should know this..
Wright FAILED time after time in key spots. i don’t get why till this very days, his legion of fans can’t come to graps that reality!
Right Alex but Reyes’ job those Septembers was to get on base and he failed big time. That’s the reason that Wright, Beltran and Delgado had huge September numbers but the Mets couldn’t score runs. No one was on base to drive in, namely Reyes.
Also Alex, I can come to grasp that in some big spots Wright did not perform. However, can you ever come to grasp with the idea that Jose Reyes tanked those Septembers even more than Wright?
Thing is, we would’ve have gotten to be in that position had wright deliver in the months of april to august!! he hit 243 ALL YEAR LONG with RISP, he had the most opp in BASEBALL with runners on and was miserable all year, do you realize he could’vedrove in 140+ runs in 2008 had he hit 280 with RISP instead of his PUTRID 243??? How many more games do you think we could’ve won!? seriously. reyes was on fire all year in 2008 but guys like you who hated reyes just because he was stepping on the golden boy’s shadow use his september numbers to put blame on him sorely him to say see wright’s better… Good luck winning with that choker, we all saw how you jumped of joy when he had that 2nd inning rbi, yet came back with the i was joking only when HE FAILED when it matter for the mets…
Alex, one I liked Reyes. He was a Met, why wouldn’t I.
Two, find me one example of how Reyes was more clutch than Wright. You can bounce around all you want from saying that first inning RBI don’t count to using RISP as a metric. Even though those go against each other. You are still dodging the point, if Wright was a dog under pressure then Reyes was his B..ch.
Of course,in your eyes, dwright is a godsend!
Where did I say that? I am as level headed as possible. I have even admitted that Delgado and Beltran were more clutch than Wright. I am just pointing out the obvious. Jose Reyes was even less “clutch” than Wright.
Last 5 games of 2008. Reyes 4 hits in 22 AB with 2 walks and 4 strikeouts. But hey if you back it up to the last 40AB you get 8/40 that’s much better.
Of course over those same two spans Wright was
.375 with .500 OBP the last 5 games and 14/31 with a .564 OBP over his last 40 PA.
4th game from the end in 2008… (We win!)
reyes 2 RS 1 RBI
9th Inning Reyes hits a single Murphy and Wright K
Reyes Steals 2nd
Beltran hits a single and reyes scores We win the game!
Thats not a clutch AB for reyes?
Had a .299 average that game
Beltrans Clutch hit is meaningless without Reyes being on and getting to 2nd isn’t it?
There were a lot of failures that lead to the 2008 season neither Wright or Reyes were one of them.
In the 5th game from the end we had a 4 run lead and the pen blew it. You can focus on Reyes’s game ending K but they would not even be IN extra innings if not for his previous scoring he Hit .300 that day what more can you ask of a player?
So of those last 5 games Reyes was key in winning one of them along with Beltran.
And in the other win scored half the runs we had!
If you looked at the last 6 games instead of just the last 5 you would also have seen Reyes had 3 RBI and Wright tied the game before that! Castro gets the lead on a single and reyes puts them away with the bases loaded by hitting a bases clearing triple!
There is nothing to suggest EITHER Reyes or Wright choked at the end or cost us the playoffs in 2008!
What killed 2008 was the pitching not the lack of clutch of those two!
Sorry, while I agree the pitching overall is the MOST to blame, Reyes dropping the ball both Septembers is a huge reason the Mets struggled offensively.
But I just showed you two example from the games you mentioned where he was the key reason we won! And showed you where you cut off Reyes biggest game in that stretch!
Did a lot more in those last 5 (6) games than Wright did!
Wrights work was mostly in losing causes!
Your being as rediculous as the wright folks are, I understand why but being more rediculous isn’t really making the point against the other just supporting it!
This is all about those who love Reyes trying to exact revenge on those who didn’t want him and chose to keep Wright instead…
What Alex and the others haven’t realized yet that the only reason they are not trashing wright yet is because Sandy hasn’t entertained trading him…
Yet they all admit they would do it in a heartbeat!
How many leadoff hitters are known to be run producers? You must’ve missed Jeter destroying us in the 2000 WS and how he destroyed everybody else during the Yankees dynasty and you must’ve missed what Lenny Dykstra did for the 86 team and what Rickey Henderson did for the A’s and Bluejays championships. Rickey put on a clinic for the Bluejays and I guess you missed Kenny Loftons run with the 90′s Indians and a few other teams he helped get to the playoffs and you probably missed Lou Brock with the Cards and Chuck Knoblauch with the Twins and I’m guessing you also missed Mickey Rivers come up big for the Yankees. There have been many leadoff hitters that have produced big time n stretch runs and postseasons. Unfortunately for the Mets and us fans Reyes is not among that group. If you’re gonna call Wright a choker then you have to be fair and call Reyes a choker too. At least Wright was in the middle of everything down the stretch in 07 and 08. Reyes did very little at all. Also you never mention Delgado’s terrible year in 07 and how he did nothing until June of 08. All that choking and if the bullpen does their job slightly better they make the playoffs. The offense did more than enough to get there.
By the way, this comments have got to be the funniest i’ve read in a long time, i mean, i literallu cry my eyes out when i read some of this:
Extend! He’s the leader, the captain, the reason they’re winning. All the new guys look up to him and he’s performing brilliantly. Homerun with an injured pinkie should have been the deal maker. – Dave
Absolutely. And they will. He is the face of the franchise and the “glue” of our lineup. He will be extended and possibly even given a “C” as honorary team captain as some have suggested. – Ben
Yes. When Wright is on, he is a critical part of the team and this year he has clearly shown that he is also leader. – Elliot
Lmao, i mean… Wow… just wow… 12 games in, and somehow he magically transform into a leader, a captain, etc.. This is just amazing…
Alex the only one of those I agree with is the last:
“Yes. When Wright is on, he is a critical part of the team and this year he has clearly shown that he is also leader. – Elliot”
I see nothing untrue about that statement. It is clear he is a leader in the clubhouse and on the field. You may not like that fact but the players will tell you otherwise. And when he is hitting obviously he is a critical part of the team, clutch or unclutch.
My own feelings about David’s performance with the pressure on (another way of saying “clutch”) pertains a lot to him in the field. Seen too many ninth inning throws pull the first baseman off the bag.
As far as hitting is concerned, he just might be the guy who drives in the runs in the early or middle innngs more than the late ones. I really don’t recall him getting many late inning hits and participating in rallies, even if it meant just advancing the runners with a base hit and not actually driving them in or scoring.
But what difference does that make? It’s a nine inning game played by 25 men and he helps get the Mets on the scoreboard early.
it’s also the total amount of runs scored that counts, not when you get them. And more is better.
David just said to Mike Francesa that the Mets haven’t approached him or his agent at all regarding an extension of his contract.
Wonder if that’s an indication of something….