27
2012
Historic Lineup Changes…A Little.
An article by 
The hardest thing for anybody to do is admit they were wrong. Therefore, I’m going to try my best to avoid doing that.
As somebody who appreciated Omar Minaya until 2010 when I felt his time had finally come, I have been very critical of his management styles when I look back on his regime.
I think many people have, and I think at times they are labeled as being unfair to Minaya.
The biggest knock on Minaya has been his lack of building up the minor leagues. Yet, yesterday’s lineup was comprised of all “homegrown” players.
Now, we have to be honest about the value of the Mets players. Some believe that the mere fact the entire lineup was homegrown is proof positive that he did in fact build a solid farm system. While others declare it is evidence of no such thing.
Me, I’m in the middle. For me, just because a player is on the big league roster, doesn’t mean the minor league system produced quality players.
Before I get back to that point, let me mention the good. I believe we’re seeing a lot of future Mets in today’s lineup. I believe Davis, and Tejada will be Mets for quite some time. I’m not yet sold on Nieuwenhuis, Duda, Valdespin, or Thole as long-term solutions. I’m also not sold that Murphy will remain with this team past a few more seasons, though I hope he does.
So I think people rush to judgment and say “look all homegrown!” Then declare the mission accomplished. The mere fact they are all homegrown doesn’t mean Minaya did a great job. It does mean he did a better job than people (me included) gave him credit for.
Just to further prove the point. The San Diego Padres have in their lineup, Nick Hundley, Chase Headley, and Will Venable. All of them were drafted in 2005, the same year that Sandy Alderson took over as CEO of the franchise. Just because they are homegrown, doesn’t mean you’ve done a great job.
When people knock Minaya’s minors, they do so in two phases. The first, is that they never had enough depth at the top in highly touted prospects that were needed to acquire a big time player via trade like Cliff Lee, or Roy Halladay. Going hand in hand with that, there was an apparent disregard for valuable draft picks in order to sign aging free agents.
The second is not so much that they didn’t have “prospects,” every team has some prospects. The problem was there was such a wide gap between big league ready talent, and minor league talent that there was no chance to tread water after injuries. For example, Pelfrey is injured now, but they are now able to try and fill in his spot with a few different options.
You have to also consider that it’s possible a new philosophy in the minor leagues has something to do with better development of talented players. The hiring of new coaches, new scouting directors, and a new big league manager have had an impact on the development of some of these kids. Truthfully, there’s no way to know how big of an impact it made.
Consider a kid like Nieuwenhuis. A lot of Alderson’s critics like to knock the idea of taking pitches, but when you teach a minor leaguer to be patient, you create a better hitter.
In 2009, Nieuwenhuis played in 131 games, his most as a professional. He drew 57 walks that year, and before his injury in 2011 he was on pace for 79 walks (if he played 131 games).
If you take Nieuwenhuis’ 2010 totals, he struck out 132 times and walked just 41 in 124 games.
In 2011, he struck out 59 times and walked 32, in 71 less games.
I’m not coming here declaring walks as the end all to the development of these prospects. I’m saying, there’s more to developing a player than the GM who was in charge at the time of his draft.
When you’re developing a player, team philosophy, the coaches and instructors have more to do with that than the GM. Even when that GM is Sandy Alderson or Omar Minaya.
So, I will say this. When I see players like Davis (though I’m worried about him), Tejada, Niese, I tip my cap to Minaya and say thank you for having something to do with bringing them here.
When I see guys like Nieuwenhuis, Duda, Gee, Thole, Valdespin, I’m not going to say mission accomplished. I believe they have talent, I believe guys like Terry Collins can be given some of the credit, as well as Tim Teufel etc. However, I’m not about to declare them as guys that will be on this team for years to come, thus proving Minaya built a deep system.
Minaya is gone, he’s not coming back, and if you want him back, the odds are that you wanted him fired when he was here. Almost every GM that leaves a team will have players come through the pipeline from his regime. It will continue to happen with Minaya, and it will eventually happen to Alderson.
The Mets need to continue to build; the mission isn’t over just because today was a historic day. It just looks like it may be a better road back to the top of the NL East than some of us may have thought.
About the Author: Michael J. Branda
My time with MMO began in July of 2009 when I wrote a Fan Post defending Omar Minaya (before it was cool to do that.) I grew up a Mets fan with the mid 1980's teams. My favorite Met of all-time is (and was) Wally Backman. When it comes to sabermetrics versus old school thinking, I like to think I meet in the middle. I believe thinking of new ways to get answers is helpful, especially when the same way has not produced results. However, I think over-thinking certain situations can get you into trouble. I'm excited for the new regime, because I believe they have pieces in place to focus on several aspects of the Mets organization. I've waited this long for a World Series, waiting a few more years for another chance isn't going to kill me.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 24 | 18 | .571 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 20 | .535 | 1.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 23 | .465 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 16 | 24 | .400 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 32 | .256 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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Gms are like the president and the economy. It takes a few years for the effects of a new guy to be felt!
But, a big part of the problem was when they really needed the help (2007/2008) it wasn’t there. And right now, there are certainly some good players, but not any apparent “stars” coming through (of the crowd up now).
As noted, any team can 9by neccesity) call up enough players to put a homegrown lineup out there. If it is good enough to make the playoffs, another story!
and lastly, keep in mind that over the last few years the team has been in more of a retrench/regroup mode. So, there has been very little in the way of trades happening. That gave a chance for some of these guys to stay and develop in the system, letting them hit NY.
anyway, I think it is certainly a nice novelty, but not really relevant to anything. If they had instead traded a couple of these guys for an established ML player that was helping the team win, wonderful. That’s a big part of what prospects are for.
Ah the damage control post, was wondering when we would see it!
I disagree completely,
I think any time you get a prospect that makes the majors it should be considered a “success”, because the majority of prospects never make it – This isn’t like the NFL, where everyone makes it. So, for example Gee was picked in the 21st round and is now a member of the Mets rotation – That pick is a success because very few players ever make it from the 21st round. So, even though he isn’t a star player, it’s still a great job by the organization.
And all the players in the lineup yesterday have potential to be very productive starters in the majors – It’s not like the Mets threw out a bunch of bums out there yesterday. These are all legitimate prospects with bright futures.
Plus, we still have guys like Harvey, Familia, Gorski, Tapia, Vaughn, Den Dekker, Flores, Lagares, and a few others from Minaya, who can also make an impact in the majors.
By the way, you said Collins deserves some credit, and that’s fine. But you know who was the guy who brought him into the organization? Omar Minaya.
Vinny – with your Collins post – you’re not wrong. But… he didn’t hire Collins to be the Manager did he? All of the pressure in the world was on the Mets to hire Backman and they chose TC instead.
You can’t say one way or the other what Omar’s intention was with Collins.
He was hired as the MiL instructor but that is a job that was a perfect setup for someone you planned to replace the manager with, He gets experience and gets to know the kids quickly without having to manage his way through the Minors and he can start to instill his approach into the players he will ultimatly be charged with managing.
One thing we knew going into 2010 was that Manuel was a lame duck and on the verge of firing even as early as ST starting. Omar didn’t live long enough to make a managerial decision that would have been made in the 2010 offseason. For all we know Collins would have been named if Manuel got fired mid season, unfortunatly they started playing well for Manuel and he got his season reprieve!
There was pressure from the fans to hire Backman but the majority were not all pulling for Backman. Most wanted to completly outside the organization guy because they felt the organization was full of rot and and an outside influence was needed.
They were wrong of course and the internal source was already here and is now doing a fine job for the most part.
Collins is good for a young roster. He has the get up and go Kids need to be motivated. Where a guy like Collins runs into trouble is with veterans who feel they belong and the Manager should just let them play.
This team is mostly made up of those guys Collins dealt with before he was manager and he has made this team all his!
But if the winning doesn’t continue his get p and go also can lead to players tuning him out and right now that is the only thing we have to worry about with Collins at the helm!
Great common sense post. God knows we could use some of that in this town.
thanks Nester!
Omar did a lot of things right when he was here, and he did a lot of thing s wrong too…
The Wrong,
He took the “win at all costs” approach. This meant he gambled on high priced Free agents and get players playing with injuries which hurt them even more.
He also let Tony Bernazard run the minor league system very badly. They didn’t let players develop properly.
He also didn’t take the necessary “steps backwards” when it was obvious his teams had major flaws that couldn’t be fixed by throwing money at it.
The right,
He took a team with very little talent on the MLB roster and NO talent in the Minors and turned them in to winners. The finishes in 06, 07 and 08 will always over shadow how good those seasons were.
He also did a good job of getting a lot of talent in to the system. Unfortunately, they couldn’t reach in the MLB roster in time to help.
Omars biggest down fall was signing Perez and Castillo. They weren’t necessarily his worst moves, but they were the ones everyone focused on. It’s petty obvious that they were the reason seeing that they were let go as soon as Alderson could get rid of them.
Omar got hit with a ton of injuries. Some were predictable, but many weren’t. Losing lots of time from Beltran, Delgado, Wright, Wagner, Sanchez, KRod and Maine were killers and not expected. Losing Reyes, Pedro, Dl’uque, Alou could be expected, but to lose all these guys at key times could not be predicted and is unheard of. Then there were plenty of injuries to key roll players like Murphy, Church, Castillo and others the exposed the lack of depth.
Unfortunately, none of the developing talent was here or ready to contribute to fill the needs. The lack of depth killed every year Omar was here.
Not his fault necessarily, but appeasing the fan base and playing dutch boy and plugging holes instead of fixing the real problem was his fault and his down fall.
The biggest issue I have with Omar is that when all those injuries hit in 2009, he had nothing to try to tread water with. His first draft was in 2005, plus he had an open checkbook every year, so when there were injuries in 2009, where were the reserves? Why did we have to suffer through the garbage that took the field, especially in the OF. My gripe is that after a solid 2005 draft and great FA signings of Pedro and Beltran, Minaya looked for all the world like he a great plan, but then after the 2006 season, which looked better than it was, he completely abandoned the plan. Maybe if the drafts were better in 2006 and 2007, 2009 wouldn’t have been the lost season it was.
Easy to say he did nothing without saying what he should have done isn’t it?
name the moves you think he could have made and prove he could have made them to stop 2009 from happening?
Do it without hindsight please…
Not going down this road with you. His drafts in 2006 and 2007 were bad. Plain and simple.
Your not going down the road because you know where it takes you!
To a dead end without a hiding spot!
2006 is where we got Murphy. Maybe it wasn’t that great a draft maybe time says otherwise!
2007 features Lutz, Duda, and Gee,
Tell us who did the Phillies get in 2006 and 2007 who make that draft look worse than theirs?
You refusal to note what could have been done just exposes your opinion as hindsight fraudulent blame when you can’t even say what would have been better!
Funny but I notice no mention or acknowledgement that we picked at the end of EVERY round in those two drafts because WE WERE COMPETING!
Really why don’t you guys just start a blog about the Minor leagues where your MiL importance makes more sense and more ON TOPIC posting than they do here!
Off the top of my head, without even really thinking, Jon Jay, Brennan Boesch and Mike Stanton were all on the board in 2006 and 2007, all could have been moved to LF in 2009, all could have avoided Cory Sullivan/Jeremy Reed/Gary Sheffield/Emil Brown and maybe even Moises Alou, which cost picks and a roster spot for a player we needed later on, and also Jason Bay from 2010 on. How’s that? And I didn’t even have to think that hard about that
Your problem is you ask questions with no answers, then bully the other guy because he can’t answer it. One the rare occasions that it can be answered, like I just did, you’ll just twist my words, change the question, move the goalposts and call me names. Ready for it? It’ll start………now.
I’ll take Lucas Duda over Jon Jay and Brennan Boesch any day……And the three guys you listed weren’t in the big leagues in 09, so I don’t know how they would have helped that year anyway.
Well, it’s all supposition. Maybe on the Mets they would have. And again, Duda has nothing to do with it. Would you take any of those guys over Cory Sullivan/Jeremy Reed/Gary Sheffield/Emil Brown? What about Bay?
Mike Stanton was 19 in 09. You think he would have made a big impact that year? He was in AA that year – So was Boesch. If the Mets had them in 09, and called them up, you would be complaining that they were rushed.
Stanton would probably be the only one that might have prevented the Bay signing. Jay and Boesch weren’t considered good prospects in 2010, so they wouldn’t have prevented the Bay signing.
Oh they have no answers because the guy who was asked for them could not make an answer that would not expose his original statement as patently false!
I note you didn’t answer who the Phillies got in those years….
Running and Hiding from the questions is your methodology though.
And your assertion that taking jay would have prevented us from making the Alou deal is as rediculous as anything you have said in the past 3 years…
I suppose you would have supported throwing a gy into the lineup a month or two after he got picked?
Really after all your whining about rushing pelfrey?
What do the Phillies ahve to do with anything? There you go changing the questions and moving the goalposts.
You at one time argued they were good drafters!
They picked pretty close to where we did in those two drafts!
You seem to think that every year you should be able to get two or three all stars in the draft…
Funny but the most the Phillies have gotten in the draft is about 3-5 in a 10 year period!
And you said they were good at it!
And there’s the lying. Really, you’re like clockwork. I never said the Phillies were good at drafting, ever. As a matter of fact, I’ve killed Ruben Amaro at every available chance for being a terrible, overrated GM and ruining the great work Gillick did in the early 2000′s to build that franchise.
So tell us all how many All Stars Gillick drafted in the early 90s then…
Your getting like jessup I didn’t say that but then say it the sentence after!
Like I can’t define clutch but can define it in a moment!
You never said the Phillies were good drafters just their GM was a good drafter!
you really are such a con artists dude! master of the misdirection!
Yet another lie/word twist. Who brought up early 90′s? Me, because I was wrong, or you, because you want to be sneaky and make people THINK I was wrong. What do the 90′s have to do with anythung at all? Just stop, it’s getting really embarrassing for you.
Who brought it up? YO did when you said something about Gillick!
The question remains you have yet to show Gillick (who you like) got anything that you blame Omar for not getting…
Tell us what it is coward!
And stop trying to make a liar out of me or try to make it like I changed the subject when we all see it was YOU who brought up BOTH Alou and Gillick!
Both subjects your are running from because as I said it took you down that road you didn’t want to go because this is where it would lead you!
trapped and desperate for an escape route with nothing left but to blame ME the the changes of subject YOU made!
And now the bullying. Just like clockwork. You brought up Gillick, not me. Not only did you bring up the Phillies, you actually lied about what I’ve said about them in hte past. Then you call me a coward for not answering a question that you twisted around. Typical. Do you understand why no one ever has a normal conversation with you on this site? Because this is how you treat people.
Yeah I’m bullying you!
Just trying to get you to show yourself some self respect and stand by your statements instead of running like you always do at the first sign of trouble!
I didn’t twist a damn thing YOU SAID Jay could have made Alou uneeded and when I confronted you that he would have to have no development time to do that you ran like a little schoolgirl!
“Jon Jay, Brennan Boesch and Mike Stanton were all on the board in 2006 and 2007, all could have been moved to LF in 2009, all could have avoided Cory Sullivan/Jeremy Reed/Gary Sheffield/Emil Brown and maybe even Moises Alou”
How much development time would Jay have had if he was taken and replaced Alou?
So there is LIAR #1
Here is LIAR #2
“You brought up Gillick, not me.”
Oh Really?
“…GM and ruining the great work Gillick did in the early 2000′s to build that franchise.”
I asked you who Gillick got that fit what you thought Omar should have…
and we all got CRICKETS and more misg mosh sybject changing as the response!
Sorry X but you been exposed as the one you accuse the others of doing!
The quotes speak for themselves!
I suggest you quit while you are behind!
I know you like to paint everything with a broad brush and look at everything through blinders, but it’s possible, and has even been documented, that some players are ready for the majors after only a year or two in the minors. So MAYBE Jay could have been used instead of Alou in either 07 OR 08, instead of picking up an option on a gimp. If you had common sense, you’d understand that Jay was a professional ball player before Alou was a Met and MIGHT have been an option.
You brought up the Phillies first, not me. You lied about what I said about them, then asked about what Gillick did in the 90′s. I don’t even know where that came from. You might not be aware of this, but Gillick wasn’t the Phillies GM in the 90′s. Then you said this:
“…GM and ruining the great work Gillick did in the early 2000′s to build that franchise.”
I asked you who Gillick got that fit what you thought Omar should have…
Are you really asking me that? Don’t you understand how that’s impossible? It’s another case of you asking an unanswerable question then running around like a lunatic when it can’t be answered.
And I know you like to paint everything with invisible facts and say things that only make sense to people wearing blinders and can’t read what you said because it is NOT POSSIBLE to get drafted in June of 2006 and get a year of development to replace a guy who started in April of 2006!
Not unless this YEAR is the year they invented a time machine that takes you backwards!
And who exactly started in April of 06?
Right…..
We also got Carson in that draft too Metsie – He’s a big lefty with a great fastball that can at times reach 100MPH.
In the 2007 draft we got four guys who can make an impact in the majors – That is not a bad draft at all.
And people sometimes make the mistake of only looking at the draft – Look at all the good IFA’s the Mets signed in 07 – Mejia, Familia, Flores, Valdespin, Puello, and Marte. Omar made up for not having a 1st rd pick that year by going out getting a lot of high upside IFA’s.
I know Vinny and I was very close to adding him but didn’t want to give X an opening to try and change the subject which failed becase he did so anyway!
Now he proposes we could have drafted Jay, given him a Met Uni and started him without any MiL development at all…
Kind of says all we need to know about X’s mindset when he gets called out to name what cold have been done differently!
And there’s the word twisting. No MiL development for Jay? You mean the guy that was drafted in 2006 who might possibly have been an option in 2009? What was he going to be doing for three years, taking sewing lessons?
Excuse me who again was it that said something about not needing Alou?
Lets Review…
Xtreeme – “all could have avoided Cory Sullivan/Jeremy Reed/Gary Sheffield/Emil Brown and maybe even Moises Alou”
He got drafted in 2006 you say 3 years but truth is it is 2 years at best!
Rmember he would have been taken in JUNE of 2006 that means 2007 and 2008 and we all know hoe you feel about rushing guys after only two years in the Minors…
You really need to know that your previous posts don’t disappear they remain and will be used against you!
Right, and since Murphy broke camp as the LF and Delgado didn’t get hurt until May 10, it would have been a month shy of three years You should know better than to try and use semantics. So your two years AT THE MOST is yet another twist/lie.
ALOU ALOU ALOU ALOU ALOU !
AAAAHHHCKKK RUN AWAY!
You said Jay would have been a replacement for ALOU!
Read it again and tell me why my statement of NO DEVELOPMENT time is absurd again?
Vinny, I’ve been one of the biggest supporters of Omar as a talent scout, but in this instance, his IFAs don’t matter because those players are signed at or around 16 years of age. We’re talking about 2009. IFAs are very rarely, if ever, in the bigs two or three years after they sign. Four of those six guys you mentioned aren’t here five years after (and shouldn’t be) and Valdy only got his first callup days ago.
But even expecting someone drafted in 07 to make an impact in 09 is a stretch too. They would have only full year in the minors to develop – That is not enough time.
Depends on the player. We’ve seen HoFers skip the minors altogether. I’m not suggesting Jay is of that caliber, I’m just saying all players are different. Look, all I was doing was responding to the question I was asked. Who was available that could have helped. Without even looking (I could probably find more), I came up with the starting CF for the World Champs, the starting RF for a WS contender in Detroit and Stanton, an All-Star caliber player. Any of those guys would have been better than the guys that played LF in 2009 and would have been a better option than Bay. I have no issue with Duda, and he wasn’t part of the original discussion.
But none of those guys were ready in 09, so they wouldn’t have helped.
Not in their organization, maybe. But Murph was drafted in 2006 and debuted in 2008. In 2009, he broke camp as the opening day LF. So if Jay was with the Mets, maybe he gets the LF call because it’s a more natural position for him. Anything could have happened, but I’ll tell you this for certain. Jay, Boesch and Stanton are all better options that those four schlubs. And maybe if they were Mets, they get the call. And that’s all I was tasked to do, to find better options that the misfits that patrolled the OF in 2009.
“For me, just because a player is on the big league roster, doesn’t mean the minor league system produced quality players.”
This
Getting players to the bigs was never the problem all you need do is look at Pelfrey for one example though I could argue he was rushed for that. It was and still is producing above average to All Star like players that you can build a team with. The hope is that kids like Niese, Davis and Duda may finally be a few of such players. Just need to see if they can fill that potential.
How many teams had a rookie who did that last year?
How many have had a rookie that did that in the last 5 years?
You guys think that every draft has an All Star for every team then your fooling youself!
I’ll put the track on repeat and give my generic opinion on Omar Minaya:
His downfall wasn’t his eye for talent, which I imagine is VERY important in drafting players, it was his handling of contracts. Yeah, he knows who can play and who can’t, but he would outbid himself and overpay constantly.
Well I will agree in regards to the contracts of Perez and Bay.
But you can;t really say the others were overpaying.
Can’t say Wright and reyes got overpaid bt then again they never really hit FA.
Beltran was worth every penny but he simply got hurt. He came back and in his first full season was every bit what we expected and paid for.
Santana is pretty much the same he is wiorth the money for the pither your getting. But he got hurt.
Castillo made 8 Mil per just two mil more than Francisco makes today! I don’t see how anyone can say we overpaid for him. In his time here he hit ..274 with a .366OBP thats pretty close to his career average!
Wagner was worth the money he got.
So was Delgado
So I don’t see where he really overpaid for anyone but Bay and Perez.
…the only reason Bay is over paid is because he has greatly under performed.
If Bay was hitting 30HR and 100RBI like he was before coming here then 16mil per year at 5 years is a pretty fair price.
Beltran I thought was overpriced at the time. I thought everyone’s expectations of him were way to high.
Perez was over priced, but Omar was desperate. We needed a starter and Ollie was the best option at the time. There were signs that he was wasn’t going to live up to the deal before he signed because of his inconsistency, but to completely implode the way he did is almost unbelievable.
I know everyone likes to go nuts on the K-Rod deal and his option…but if you look at it, it was 12.5 per year for 4 years. Omar just built in a guarantee that he could save 14.5mil if K-Rod bombed out. That’s about the going market for a top line closer (which K-Rod was at the time). You can argue that Closers aren’t worth that much, but apparently they are because the really good ones get paid like that.
I agree USMF on principle but the truth is no one else was willing to pay Bay that amount either.
yes if he did what he was predicted to do no one would have a complaint.
But I agree that Bay was a bad signing on principle and that no one else in the league really wanted him and Omar (being under pressure to et something and not being able to get Halladay) went for the guy he shouldn’t have.
We needed pitching not a big bat and truth is we didn’t get that big bat.
No one is perfect and no one says Minaya never made a mistake, just not as many as some people would like there to be so Sandy’s mistakes look ok!
But I don’t think Omar wanted Halladay, or at least wanted to deal with BoreAss and sign Halladay to the deal he wanted. I don’t remember Omar ever really making any effort to sign him.
Halladay is way over paid and while he’s performing better than I expected…his splits before St. Louis showed that he really benefited from playing in Denver. See that he can’t field. I still believe that Halladay would be just as bad as Bay if he came here.
Sadly, we needed a big bat and pitching. That was the one year that I really expected (and Wanted) Omar not to make a deal and go into a “rebuilding” stage.
holliday. Not halladay, the pitcher dude.
I think he wanted the Pitcher but got rebuffed from the get go knowing he didn’t want to play here. But I could be wrong on that front. Maybe Omar didn’t try at all.
He took Bay over Holiday merely because of the new dimensions at Citi and Bays propensity to pull the ball.
It was a very weak FA market that year. Bay was one of the top FAs which pretty much tells you everything you need to know about it!
what many keep overlooking is not that the extra prospects you wold have drafted had to step in to lead the team. They are also the currency in MLB that gets you other help.
so even if the 21 YO raking in AA isn’t ready to come up to fill your gaping hole, he could be the piece needed t trade to a team out of it that wants to get rid of a high-priced guy at the end of his deal.
the more prospects of note, the more trade options.
so if you say have a system full of top SP prospects, you can spare one to get 3 months of Beltran, instead of having to start some AAA retread.