Collins Undecided If Johan Starts On Opening Day

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• Joey D. March 17, 2012 at 1:02 am

  Good day and forget about the score as far as Santana is concerned. Those five extra pitches make me feel great and I’m unconcerned about the runs and hits that came due to Johan’s experimenting, judgement and refining of his change up. His building up stamina is what is most important.

  Have to accept that this is only spring training and not to panic about the 3-9 start or the total ineffectiveness of the three new relievers Sandy brought on board. Might have to keep repeating that to myself, however, so to indeed avoid that panic.
• JetsMets13 March 17, 2012 at 8:45 am

  Prediction: 18 starts, 2-8, 4.67 ERA. When all is said and done, the Mets will have paid $78 million for 2011, 2012, 2103 and gotten worse results than Oliver Perez in 2009, 2010, 2011 for $36 million. Lesson to be learned is no LTD for pitchers, even ace pitchers.
  • Tyler M. March 17, 2012 at 9:36 am

    2-8? One heck of a lot would have to go wrong with his starts for him to be at 2-8 on the regular season….even with this offense.
  • Vinny B March 17, 2012 at 6:06 pm

    I disagree completely. Johan is a great pitcher, and a tremendous competitor, I expect him to come back and have a solid season. I don’t think he’ll be as good as he was in his prime, but I think he’ll come back and pitch pretty good.

    My prediction: 12-7 3.50 ERA.

    And this is just one ST start. It’s really not that a big of deal. I didn’t get to see the game, but from what I read, they said his velocity was good, which is a great sign, and he’s also had no health problems at all up to this point.
• Florida Met Fan Rich March 17, 2012 at 9:48 am

  Is opening day even going to sell out?

  Not surprised about Santanna. The Mets have just been hyping him to try to sell tickets. I dont think any rational fan expected him to pitch opening day or return to form this quick.
  He has no speed on his fastball.

  This team really SUCKS BAD! I have seen 7 games and they look totally overmatched, unless they play the Astros. They have lost 6 in a row and are heading to the basement and it only took two weeks.

  Yes I know about “Its only Spring Training” and the injuries (Part of the game), It just exposes that we have zero depth. If you are a competitor “Losing every day becomes contageous”!

  They need to go on some kind of a mini win steak during these next two weeks jus for the mental aspect and confidence.

  This team needs to get out of the gate fast, or they will be out of it by mid May
  • any March 17, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    is velocity has been pretty close to what is was before he went down. Maybe 1-2 MPH slower at most, and given it is still early in ST and he is building back up, I am surprised he is throwing as hard as he is.

    If it makes you feel better, right now he is throwing harder than Halladay!
• Metsie March 17, 2012 at 12:16 pm

  It was pretty obvious to me Yesterday Santana was working on Pitches not batters. And what you want him doing at this point because his first cople of starts were all about building arm stregnth and not overdoing it!

  He seems like he is going to be fine the only worry is will he last the entire season?
  • srt March 17, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    Will he last the entire season – and will he be able to pitch better than 5 innings for a good portion of his starts? Time will tell.
    • Metsie March 17, 2012 at 12:46 pm

      ell i’m a little less concerned about going past 5 innings this year merely for the fact is thats why we bought all those pen arms and I would rather him go only 5 this year provided he stays healthy and can get another two innings more next year when we might have at least a decent shot at it being towards a winning season.

      I am looking at it from the perspective sandy is likely to look at it.

      The last remaining big contracts are:
      Bay – 16 M 2Y remain
      Santana 24-25M 2Y Remain
      Wright 15M with an Option for year two

      Wright is a possible trade this season but if Santana shows some life even if it is only 5 innings a game he might not worry so much about purging Wright from the payroll in hopes he can unload Santana if he stays injury free and can eventually get to the 7th by the time the season is done.

      That would save him the remaining 24 Mil he really needs to cut to cover the 70 Mil losses from last year and then it’s just a matter or what he can do with Bay.

      A decent Santana eases the need to trade Wright as it is back in the realm of possibility to trade Santana instead and get a big chunk of Salary relief that way!

      So I doubt they will push him much past 6 even if he says he is good to go!
      better to protect and deal with fewer innings from him than risk reinjury and being stuck with that 25 Mil of waste next year!
      • srt March 17, 2012 at 1:09 pm

        Nothing burns a BP out faster than most of the starters not going at least 6 innings.
        • Metsie March 17, 2012 at 1:29 pm

          Like burning out this lot really matters? They are one year fillers and it’s not like burning them out is going to hurt our playoff chances this year!

          Remember if we are to believe the hype this year is all about two years from now when Harvey and Familia are the starters and Bay and Santana are gone!
          • srt March 17, 2012 at 1:39 pm

            I hear you but yeah, it matters if they want to actually win some games.
            • Metsie March 17, 2012 at 1:48 pm

              If they wanted to win some games they would have went after better starters not Bullpen help!
          • any March 17, 2012 at 1:50 pm

            I actually am not that worried about burning most of the guys out, since I like some of the arms that will be in the minors better anyway, so having to replace the original guys may not be a big deal!

            And you still don’t get much in the way of SP for a low price unfortunately.
            • srt March 17, 2012 at 2:01 pm

              This.
              I know it’s only ST and limited outings but a couple of those minor league arms have looked good so far.
      • Joey D. March 17, 2012 at 1:17 pm

        Metsi, I agree that Sandy would want him pitch less but effective innings this season so he will could go longer next year. But I think his objective is not for the Mets future but more to build up his potential value to dump him and his salary.
        • Metsie March 17, 2012 at 1:31 pm

          exactly Joey….

          It’s all about having him pitch with no setbacks!
          If all goes well by the time September hits he should be hitting the 6th and 7th and that makes for a shot at a trade in the offseason to purge at least half his salary from the books!

          The better Santana Pitches the less likely they are to pull the trigger on the Wright trade!
          Because Sandy is fine with having TWO big salaries on the books. If he can dump either Santana or Bay then there is no reason to trade wright!
          • Joey D. March 17, 2012 at 2:11 pm

            And Metsi, I have you to thank for me no longer giving Sandy the benefit of the doubt.

            Embarrassing as it is, I was unaware how the role of the general manager had diversified into different roles for different franchises. Still seeing them as baseball men, I believed Sandy had the eye and knowhow to put together those great Oakland teams before his money ball/sabremetric days – and since you insisted he did not, I did my own more further research and found that he indeed had no knowledge of the game on a professional level and that his resume is more of a chief financial officer than a baseball man. It was those alongside or underneath him who did the work he was credited for.

            To me, that’s like crediting M. Donald Grant for the ’69 miracle instead of the combined work of Johnny Murhpy, Bing Devine and Bob Sheffing. Grant was the money man. I suspect it was those under him who told him to negotiate tough with the Giants and get Zach Wheeler. I can’t see Sandy being the one saying there is this kid in the Giant organization whom I think is a can’t miss.

            Yet I can see him getting the credit if the move proves successful just as much as he didn’t get the blame for the Mets faltering after stripping them of their top hitter and closer (and before the injuries took over).

            With me, he has lost all credibility. I felt he was giving us the company line his first few months as G.M. but will never forget that Sunday afternoon press conference when he told us that the doctors said Jose would be just day to day and probably would probably be OK to play at the all-star game – only to come to the broadcast booth three days later to explain he was told at the time by the doctors that there was little chance Jose would not have to go on the DL. Why such a lie? Perhaps because the Phillies were coming to town that weekend and without Jose, there would stop the advance ticket sales. Whatever the reason, it was being dishonest with the fans when there was no need to.

            Let’s agree that Sandy’s hands are tied at the moment regarding money. Can we also agree that if the rope wasn’t so tight he still wouldn’t have been doing his job any differently?
            • srt March 17, 2012 at 2:41 pm

              ‘Can we also agree that if the rope wasn’t so tight he still wouldn’t have been doing his job any differently?’

              Not in my opinion, but to each his own.
              • Metsie March 17, 2012 at 2:51 pm

                It really depends on who did the tying doesn’t it?

                If Wilpon said you can’t lose money then you might say he might have done something different.

                But there is not one shred of proof Wilpon said that, Wilpon denies it and cites BASEBALL REASONS for the cuts, and despite playing some inpired baseball and attendance going up Sandy still pulled the trigger on K-Rod and Beltran which believe what you want were pretty much his decision throgh and through!

                Every interview regarding Wright started off with something to the tne of ” Well you can’t have more than two big salaries on your roster!”

                Does that sond like something anyone can accse Fred of thinking considering his teams of 2–5-2009 and the worst team Money could buy?

                NO!

                But it does sound a lot like Sandy Alderson circa 1993 through to the present!

                Look at SD’s payroll which was the last place he worked at!
                • srt March 17, 2012 at 4:24 pm

                  Considering they were down some 70 MIL in revenues last year alone, and they owe out a couple of loans, etc. – I just don’t see how there possibly could have been much more money to spend.

                  I’m not in the camp of believing that the SA quotes starting out with around 110-120 MIL payroll projected this year, down to 95 or less by the end of the season – was him stringing Met fans along. I’m in the camp of believing even though payroll was going to be slashed, he didn’t know coming in just how much. I believe not securing that Einhorn investment had something to do with it as well.

                  Just don’t believe that any GM of a MLB has no interest in winning. No matter how some of you present it, I’m never buying into that.
                  • Metsie March 17, 2012 at 4:33 pm

                    the 110-120 Mil number was the high level and included a resigning of Reyes!
                    Reyes didn’t get cast aside for the dollars they didn’t like the years….Hence it is being characterized as a BASEBALL decision by Wilpon and Sandy!

                    The 110-120 Mil number also included all the Draft signings. Most GMs are not inclding that when they state their target payroll, but Sandy did…Why? Because it sounded a lot better to the press than saying Oh No we are going down to 95 Mil!

                    Who said he doesn’t want to win?
                    All we said is he wasn’t interested in winning this year or next!

                    They ALL want to win! What differs is the timing they are trying to win in!

                    Omar was Win now and deal with the future when it gets here!
                    Cashman is WIN ALWAYS whatever money or prospect trades it takes!
                    Sandy is Win at some point but no point soon!

                    The problem is in NY if you play it sandy’s way you never qite last long enough to see those wins!
            • Metsie March 17, 2012 at 2:46 pm

              And Joey it isn’t even how much the front office structure of baseball has changed but how the corporate structure as a whole has changed!

              Back when Grant was the GM all he was really responsible for was being available to the baseball folks so Payson could do what rich people do and not have to be bothered.

              His Title would be the same as jeffs at this point only he probably had a bit more leeway to make decisions on his own without having to get his script from Payson like Jeff has to with Dad!

              The Jobs haven’t really changed at all only the title given for a particular job!

              What was once the GM is now the President or Vice president…
              The VP of baseball operations probably does more for the team bilding than even the GM does these days!
              We have broken down the assignments over 3 or 4 titles where before there was sually just one or two!

              It’s the way most corporations are run, Making titles costs nothing and by giving them you save money on raises that they would have to get instead!

              This is why I always try to get people to give credit based on what they ACTUALLY did not based on where they were when something happened!

              people loom to credit Phillips with reyes and Wright but everyone knows Omar pretty much ran the show while Phillips was busy banging interns and trying to make trades!

              Omar handled most the day to day back in those days and it showed because the team fell apart pretty much at the same time he left for Montreal! He got the Senior Asst Gm title because he really was the guy most reported to and he would bring it to Phillips!

              Harazin got an awful lot of blame for the worst team money could buy but Hunsicker was the guy who knew and ran the baseball decisions. harazin was like Sandy a contract lawyer not a baseball guy!

              Unfortunatly people just look at lists and title and assume what that title means but the title itself is only important as the titles that are around it! Asst GM does not do more than the Senior Asst GM!
              If you don’t understand the power structure of an organization you will not understand what they do and/or who does what!

              It is a common problem on these blogs that people look at something and give it a face value because they don’t bother to do their homework (like you did!) to see if the face is really the face that deserves the credit or the MASK that got credited for no other reason than just being there when someone else was good!
• Joey D. March 17, 2012 at 4:57 pm

  Hi Metsi

  As said, no team has ever traded away players the caliber of KRod and Beltran when in the middle of a playoff hunt. That decision thinking process is representative more of one who sits behind a desk (figuratively speaking) running a business more than one who lives and breaths with the team and the players – either that….., or acts of desperation like with Connie Mack back in the early thirties when going broke forced him to break up his championship Philadephia Athletics clubs by shipping off Jimmy Fox, Chuck Klein and others.

  The corporate-type lawyer (or one who relies on computer analysis) might not comprehend how much the impact coming off a winning season (let’s say a modest 84-78) means for a young team. Even while slowly becoming distanced from the playoff picture), such an accomplishment would have meant so much to the future of a young club in spirit, attitude, confidence and (most importantly) growing as a team, than coming off a season of 78-84. That’s an emotional consideration baseball people would seriously appreciate more by one considered primarily with dollars and cents. There would be no underdog tee-shirts and certainly more optimism going into this year.

  And we could have had a damn good club this year had it not been broken up. St. Louis signed Beltran for two years and coming off a great comeback season with no knee pain and the ability to still run somewhat sprite, Beltran back in center is not out of the realm. Hence, we would have had a Bay-Beltran-Duda outfield. If we retained Jose we would have had an infield of Wright-Reyes-Murphy-Davis. Then the fourth outfielder and Tejada that we have as starters would add to our bench strength. If we retained Krod we would have him along with Parnell and the three relievers (though they haven’t looked good except today for Rausch and Francisco) our pen would have been decent.

  Santana coming back to join Dickey. Niese looked great today mixing his pitches. That’s three starters right there. And note that we wouldn’t be giving up on the future and thus could look forward to both 2012 and 2015.

  But looking at the non-Met financial situation surrounding Sterling Equities, I again believe breaking up the team was the result of the Wilpons finding themselves in really troubled waters. Can see them curbing their spending but knowing their spending habits, they must be really behind the economic eight-ball to do such a 180 degree turn. So I believe breaking up of that team began with the hiring of Sandy Alderson, not because of it. Was Sandy forced upon them by Selig? Who knows? But I cannot see the marriage between such opposites unless it was a time of desperation. If it wasn’t, then the Wilpons (Oscar) would have thrown Sandy (Felix) out of the house a long time ago.
  Again, there is just no way of really knowing what those who are the baseball brains for the franchise might have persuaded Sandy to do had the money been there. But if the money is there, then I’m afraid we are the New York Pirates or the Kansas City Royals of New York.
  • Metsie March 17, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    Well there are two ways of looking at the finances last July…

    1 – Your not making money and have to cut spending…
    2 – You need to generate and increase revenue!

    The problem most of the believers (in Sandy) has is they think there is only option #1!

    When Option #2 was really not much more than 7.5 games away!

    The SMART bean counter figures out how to get more beans!
    The Dumb one sells off the beans until he has no product to sell!
• Joey D. March 17, 2012 at 7:58 pm

  SRT,

  Nobody is inferring that Sandy doesn’t want to win. We’re inferring that he’s a businessman who looks at the books and will try to accomplish that within a certain budgetary frame, and perhaps a very low one (we don’t know).

  But what he did last summer with KRod and Beltran is evidence of a general manager whose first priority is anything but winning. There are those who said the Mets were not going to the playoffs and to think otherwise was foolish so getting a Wheeler instead was a great move.
  That’s not the way the game is played. We would have been foolish to give up Matt Harvey in return for one the quality of a Beltran but that is not what we did. Let the team falter on it’s own but don’t pull the rug from underneath them and send the message that you’re not good enough. That undermined all the great work that Terry and his crew accomplished after that horrible 4-15 start.

  And they did it with no help from any of the players that Sandy got over the winter other than perhaps Hairston who’s strength was being on the bench and Byrdak. Though a feel good story after coming back from such injury, the reality was that with the seventh best run support in the league, Chris Cappuano should have won more games than he did (not to mention hardly ever giving the bullpen a rest). After the league caught up with Chris in June, he sported an ERA over five the rest of the way (and that includes that brilliant performance in August) .

  Oh, wait…., I have to apologize to Sandy. Hu once hit a deep sacrifice fly that tied the game and got the winning run in scoring position that led to a ninth inning Met come from behind victory.

  Again, it’s not that Sandy doesn’t want to win any less than any one else. It’s just that he is responsible for the fiscal picture and either 1) his hands are tied so he can’t allow any more spending than he has, or 2) he’s calling the shots on player decisions with more flexibility, financially, and showing he’s doing a terrible job of it. All I know is it takes a baseball man with years of experience and deep, professional knowledge of the game itself to put together a winning organization – not a lawyer.
  • Fonzie13 March 17, 2012 at 10:06 pm

    I wonder how the other guy with a law degree, who was a PR guy for a racetrack and a marketing executive with brewery put together a winning organization. One Mr. Frank Cashen. No professional baseball knowledge and he did quite well with 2 different organizations. I wonder how he did that.
    • Joey D. March 17, 2012 at 10:51 pm

      Hi Fonzi,

      That was because Harry Dalton was the general manager who put together those great Oriole teams from the mid sixties through the mid seventies. The Orioles were not major players in the American League east during his actual tenure as G.M. But he learned during that time.

      And what he learned that he took with him to the Mets was accepting the responsibility of making the final decision but to always adhere to listening to others before making that decision. Similar to President Reagan who would be the first to admit he needed to rely heavily on his appointees to get the things done, with the final decision indeed resting on his shoulders too.. No matter what one’s opinion of the Reagen years, one has to agree he knew what he wanted to achieve and who could best do that job for him.

      If it’s good enough for the President of the United States, it’s good enough for the general manger of a baseball team. A quote from Frank:

      “I learned early that as a G.M., you needed the courage of your own convictions. You listen to all your people because you trust them, you consider what they’re saying, you weigh it, and you have to evaluate the evaluator,” said Cashen, who retired in 1993 and spends part of the year living in Port St. Lucie, Fla., near the Mets spring training complex. “And at the very end, it’s you that has to make that decision.”

      Notice he learned to rely on people and didn’t turn to the use of advanced statistical analysis and money ball practices being studied at the same time by his successor of twenty years later.

      But Frank had his Waterloo as well. From Wikipedia:

      “While Cashen was largely credited for building the Mets into the 1986 World Champions, he was quickly vilified for dismantling the franchise when a dynasty never materialized. In various transactions, scrappy clubhouse leaders, Lenny “Nails” Dykstra, Roger McDowell, and Wally Backman, as well as fan favorite, Mookie Wilson, and future All-Stars, Rick Aguilera and Kevin Tapani, were traded away. In return, the Mets received the hugely disappointing Juan Samuel as well as Frank Viola (who won 20 games for the 1990 Mets but was otherwise only average in less than three seasons with New York), Jeff Musselman (who was out of baseball after 1990), and four players that never played in the majors.

      Hernandez, Carter and World Series MVP, Ray Knight were either released or granted free agency in the years following the championship. Instead, the Mets hopes were pinned on Gregg Jefferies who soon faltered and was very unpopular on the team.

      After stumbling to a fifth-place finish in 1991, Frank Cashen stepped down as the Mets’ general manager.”

      Now Frank cannot be held responsible for age catching up to Keith and Kid or Knight demanding a two year deal instead of accepting the one year contract offered to him. But that’s it.

      Like with Sandy, one has to wonder where Frank was getting his advice on those years following 1988 or if he relied more on his own instincts as time went on.

      But the bottom line is Frank admitting he had to rely on others. That is true for all general managers to some degree but as Metsi has pointed out, many are more like George Steinbrenner relying on Gabe Paul. And as we know, after a while the Boss took on a more hands-on approach and that’s when the Mets came in and took back the city from them.
• Fonzie13 March 18, 2012 at 5:47 am

  So, Harry Dalton the GM deserves the credit for building the O’s but Sandy Alderson the GM who built the A’s doesn’t deserve credit in your mind. Why not give credit to Lou Gorman and Walter Shannon for help building the Orioles. Why do you give all the credit to Dalton the GM?

  ” Embarrassing as it is, I was unaware how the role of the general manager had diversified into different roles for different franchises. Still seeing them as baseball men, I believed Sandy had the eye and knowhow to put together those great Oakland teams before his money ball/sabremetric days – and since you( Metsie ) insisted he did not, I did my own more further research and found that he indeed had no knowledge of the game on a professional level and that his resume is more of a chief financial officer than a baseball man. It was those alongside or underneath him who did the work he was credited for.”

  Who alongside him and underneath him did the work? Did you research that? Or is it just another one of your assumptions? Was it Walt Jocketty, who got his first job with in baseball with Oakland in 1981? Was it Bill Rigney who got his first front office job in 83, Sandy’s 1st year as GM. Maybe it Dick Weincek who was an assistant GM for 4 years with the Angels. Where’s the baseball men that Sandy Relied on. Not much experience with these guys.

  I know GM’s rely on their front office people, they all so. Where I have a problem is you saying it was Aldersons baseball people and not Alderson who made the baseball decisions, Alderson handled the financials. That is a completely false assumptiom that you’re insist is a fact. Pretty much every front office personnel Alderson had under him had no previous front office experience except one Richard Weicek, and not a whole lot of experience to boot.

  Karl Kuehl first job 1984, Alderson hire.Dir Pl Dvlp.
  Juan Marichal 1984 Latin Amer Scout.
  Dick Bogard 1st job 1985 Scouting Dir.
  Ron Shueler 1st job 1988 Baseball Ops.
  Eric Kubota 1st job 1990 Min League Ops.
  Keith Liepmann 1st job 1992 Baseball Ops.
  Billy Beane 1st job 1990 Scout 1994 Asst GM.
  Dave Siefert 1st job 1995 Baseball Ops.
  Grady Fuson 1st job 1995 Scouting Dir.
  JP Ricciardi 1st job 1998 Asst GM.
  Bob Johnson 1st job 1998 Asst GM.

  All the so called baseball people you say he relied on were wet behind the ears in terms of baseball experience as executives. Then you say this!
  “Notice he learned to rely on people and didn’t turn to the use of advanced statistical analysis and money ball practices being studied at the same time by his successor of twenty years later”.

  So what you’re saying is Frank Cashen relied on his baseball people right? That would be correct. You contradict yourself in regards to Alderson. First you say he relied on his baseball people and he gets the credit for their work. Then you say he relied on advanced statistical analysis. Which is it? I’ll help you, it’s more to do with statisical analysis. His baseball people worked with his philosphies, not the other way around as you suggest. He was criticized for hiring the people he did because of their lack of baseball experience.

  http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/anniversary/25-years/261956.html

  Yes GM’s are the one’s who devise a plan and it’s up to the people he puts in place to help execute his plan but this guy changed the way GM’s did things. He was an innovator. It doesn’t matter that he was an outsider, he learned on his own how to do things differently.

  The other thing you’re incorrect is his payrolls with Oakland. From 83 until 95 his payrolls were up among the league leaders, tops in the AL in 91. It wasn’t until Walter Haas died and Steve Schott and Ken Hauffman took control of the team that he was ordered to cut payroll and he only stuck around as GM 2 more years. Blaming him for cutting SD’s payroll is also incorrect. Whether he had anything to do with their payroll, who knows but in 2005 his 1st year their payroll went up 55 mil to 63 mil, in 2006 it went up to 69 mil, in 2007 it went down to 58 mil, in 2008 it went back up to 73 mil and in 2009 it was cut to 43 mil and he said sayonara. So I don’t know how he can be blamed for moneyballing the Padres when the paroll rose the 1st 2 years and in the 4th year after a 1 year reduction. Why not assume he left becase payroll was cut in 2009 instead of saying it was because he wanted it that way?

  Like I said last week when this was first brough up. None of us know what really goes on behind closed doors so none of us know anything about the Mets regarding payroll and why theses decisions are being made. All it is is speculation on our part. Speculation and assumption.
  • Metsie March 18, 2012 at 10:20 am

    sandy didn’t build the A’s pre 1992!
    Rigney and Eisenhardt did!
    • Fonzie13 March 18, 2012 at 4:31 pm

      Wrong as usual Metsie. Eisenhardt had absolutely nothing to do with the baseball decisions, absolutely nothing. His one baseball decision was hiring Sandy to be the GM, Rigney was Eisenhardts assistant. Giving Eisenhardt credit for building the A’s would be like giving Fred Wilpon credit for building the 86 Mets, they held the same title. The one guy who deserves credit for helping Sandy is the guy you fail to mention, Weincek.

      So you’re wrong as always Metsie, Just like you were wrong when you said McIlvaine hired Minaya, Phillips did. Just like you were wrong wheny ou gave Omar credit for scouting and signing Reyes, it was Juan Mercado who scouted and signed both Nelson Cruz and Jose Reyes, Omar only Ok’d their bonuses. Just like you were wrong giving credit to Omar for scouting Wright, it was Carmen Fusco. Why don’t you actually give Omar credit when he deserves the credit like orchestrating the Piazza deal.

      So now you’re saying that Cashen wasn’t successful here? He’s only remembered for the Juan Samuel trade? One and done. The best 7 year period in franchise history and now you’re knocking the guy for the Juan Samuel deal. And for your incorrect information McIlvaine was the scouting director from 81 to 85, became Asst GM and then Rollie Johnson became scouting director from 85 to 91. Gorman wasn’t making the draft picks.

      The players under Joe Macs watch while he was scouting director? How about Doc Gooden? Ring a bell? Lenny Dykstra, Roger McDowell, Greg Jeffries, Rick Aguilera, Calvin Schiraldi (Bobby Ojeda), How about Roger Clemons, Rafael Palmeiro, Matt Williams, John Wetteland,John Olerud. Pretty good players don’t ya think. Too bad Wilpon wouldn’t pony up the dough to sign some of them or else you wouldn’t be so narrow minded to call Cashen a one and done GM. Go ahead Metsie, come back with more lies, We all know how you side step facts and make shit up to prove your point. Joey D will catch on to you like everybody else has here. Go ahead and give credit to the wrong people to try and prove your point. Like trying too give Omar credit for Met picks when he was employed by the Texas Rangers.
      • Metsie March 19, 2012 at 9:55 am

        And what was Rigney’s title Fonz?
        Writing 5 Paragraphs worth of post without a shred of any proof included, merely denying all the facts I and JoeyD have showed really isn’t working for you!

        So better try something else!
        • Fonzie13 March 19, 2012 at 2:53 pm

          You have never provided anything short of bullshit, you have provided nothing but a list of names. You claiming Eisenhardt had anything to do with the day to day operations of the basbeall team is typical Metsie bullshit. Joey.D is on to you too. He didn’t provide any facts refuting Aldersons role either. He provided facts that showed Sandy came in as an outsider without any professional baseball experience. A fact that everyone already knew. Keep up with the lies, they’re quite entertaining. Fraudsie!
          • Metsie March 19, 2012 at 5:36 pm

            names AND their Titles plus WHO those titles reported to!

            Not a single baseball gy reported to Alderson…
            You want to say different show YOUR proof!
            I showed mine and it showed the BASEBALL gy reported to the president not Sandy!

            Joey showed you even more that you attempted to swat away case it doesn’t fit your bull!

            And it takes you 5 Paragraphs to say I don’t care what the FACTS are Only what Fonzie says is the truth!
  • Metsie March 18, 2012 at 10:28 am

    Yes Fonzie whoever did the ACTUAL BUILDING is the one who gets the credit! Not just whoever has a title you think means they build things becaise some with that title sometimes do build things!

    Cashen was successful here right? Does Juan Samuel ring a bell?
    Does One and Done ring true?

    Why don’t you tell us all about which great player was drafted by the Mets after Lou Gorman left in 85 and McIlvane took over?
• Joey D. March 18, 2012 at 12:32 pm

  Hi Fonzi,

  From prior comments in other postings you recall I did my own investigation, thoroughly believing that all general managers were professional baseball insiders (by that I do not mean traditional versus sabre) and found that Metsi, who I disagreed with originally, was correct in pointing out that many are hands on baseball while others are more or less business oriented. A general manager nowadays could also be referred to as the “office manager” for what it seems.

  Now, in those portions of articles that I had attached, Sandy clearly states he knew NOTHING of the game. He relied on others.

  Even though he got on the job training, sitting in the front office one cannot just learn the “baseball” aspects of the game over time like those who spent their adult lifetime having their feet entrenched in competitive ball, either as a player, coach or one who didn’t play but had the ability to understand it.

  I even notice on interviews that when talking about players and/or prospects, Sandy talks about them in very general terms while the information we get from others pertains to the details we like to know. And I can never forget the first time I saw him in a sit-down interview on SNY because of one specific question he fielded from the viewing audience regarding bringing in the fences at Citi Field so the Mets could hit more home runs. Sandy’s answer (and I was shocked to hear this) was not bringing in the fences but having the players “learn how to hit home runs” there..

  What type of answer was that? At first I thought it was just covering up so not to make the Wilpons look bad in their design of the field. And then, not even a year later, Sandy says we’re moving in the fences to rely more on our power.

  Now Fonzi, I am really troubled by this particular thing you said: “The other thing you’re incorrect is his payrolls with Oakland. From 83 until 95 his payrolls were up among the league leaders, tops in the AL in 91. It wasn’t until Walter Haas died and Steve Schott and Ken Hauffman took control of the team that he was ordered to cut payroll and he only stuck around as GM 2 more years.”

  I don’t know how many times I posted exactly just that, and in precise detail, since I started following MMO. So often have I quoted exact payroll figures, their rankings in the majors and individual contracts to point that Sandy did not use money ball to build those great Oakland teams and that he began turning to that and advanced computer analysis upon the death of the owner. What happened in the THREE years (1996 – 1998) and beyond was an Oakland team the caliber worse than what we see now with the Mets.

  Then you mention: “You contradict yourself in regards to Alderson. First you say he relied on his baseball people and he gets the credit for their work. Then you say he relied on advanced statistical analysis. Which is it? I’ll help you, it’s more to do with statisical analysis. His baseball people worked with his philosphies, not the other way around as you suggest. He was criticized for hiring the people he did because of their lack of baseball experience.”

  What I contest is that he was learning about Sabremetrics and the money ball concept for years and finally put them into practice when the money was taken away from him. Sandy’s career as a general manager was transitional, first relying upon the “traditional” baseball people and then slowly going out of the box and making things be done that way. That’s how his biography reads.

  And as I’ve said before, his growing use of money ball combined with sabremetrics and less reliance on the traditional baseball insiders has resulted in bad clubs. Same with Billy Beane in Oakland and the Mets today (I’ve exhausted myself showing that the 2001 Oakland A’s were not going to fall apart with the departure of Giambi and Damon, not with that great pitching staff and other good hitters returning – and the role players Beane obtained through “sabremetrics” not being ones a baseball insider would not have sought,either).

  The point that I found is that the roles of the general manager have evolved – just like the sport itself (the use of sabremetrics and money ball has been quoted by many as being part of that evolution BTW) and while they all get the credit for making the baseball decisions, many of them don’t have enough inside knowledge of the game and rely more on what others request – and then determine which players the team can and cannot afford and then which ones to go after.

  Bottom line – I thought one way but it’s my nature to remain open-minded so not to remain entrenched with my ways and thus the 180 degree turn about crediting Sandy, Frank and others having hands-on baseball knowledge on a professional level and realizing they were more involved with the business aspect. I’ve tried doing that with advanced stats and money ball and found that success on the field is unlikely to come from sitting behind a computer and balancing ledger books. Yes, one is a useful tool and the other is a necessity of business life, but the proportion of success either on the field or in the ledger book has become more myth than reality.

  Fonzi, I want to make a personal note at this time. While you and I strongly disagree on many things, you’ve been nothing but respectful and polite with me and I hope you find the same from this end. Guess I feel the need to say this because with others it’s become quite vindicative and I don’t want us to be seen in that same light.

  Ciao and Shalom!
• Joey D. March 18, 2012 at 6:45 pm

  Hi Fonzi,

  Many times Metsi and I have disagreements and I dispute his facts with backup material which he then tends to ignore in his follow up reply (sorry, Metsi, but you have been guilty of that with me too). But in the case of the various roles of the modern general manager, I also disagreed with him until coming across a lot of information, including quotes by the GM’s themselves, which got me to understand that on that point, he was right on target. There are those who run the operation of the franchise and not the molding of the team – though they hold the responsibility for making the decision, often with fiscal considerations in mind.

  That is what I think describes Sandy Alderson, which is fine with me. I do believe he has taken more of a hands-on approach with the Mets for I can’t believe his signings and releases were suggested to him by those who know the game inside and out.
  • Fonzie13 March 18, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    Hey Joey!

    Let me start off by saying you are nothing short of a total gentlemen and I would never be disrespectful with someone unless they were disrespectful with me. I wish I could say the same about everyone here but unfortunately not all are as respectful as you.

    Also let me say I don’t disagree with the various roles of the GM position and rest of the front office people. That’s the one thing Metsie said that was correct. He also claimed that people give credit to the people with the title but not the actual people who do the groundwork but he did not practice what he preached. Saying that Roy Eisenhardt is the one that built those championship A’s teams is absolutely 100% false. Eisenhardt had zero to do with the day to day operations of the team. Metsie gave credit to the title. He’s basically reversing their actual roles.

    The information you gathered told you that Alderson had no professional baseball backround, that’s 100% correct, it didn’t tell you that he’s not the one that built those teams as Metsie is trying to claim. Metsie is the king of false information, the longer you frequent this site the more you will see how he’ll make up just about anything to try and prove his point.

    Now I’ll answer some of what you said in your other response to my original post.

    “Even though he got on the job training, sitting in the front office one cannot just learn the “baseball” aspects of the game over time like those who spent their adult lifetime having their feet entrenched in competitive ball, either as a player, coach or one who didn’t play but had the ability to understand it.”

    The one thing you’re not mentioning is the people he hired had very little experience in their positions. Only Dick Weincek had 4 years experience with the Angels as an assistant GM and Walt Jocketty, the farm director was entering his 3rd year in 1983. Bill Rigney started in 1983 and had no prior experience. Every other front office personnel he hired had no other professional front office experience and he caught a lot of criticism from other organiztions for hiring these guys.

    He did however put them in place and let them do their thing with his philosophy, statistical analysis which he relied on from day one, not starting in 1995. So while he listened to his people, he was the one to believe in those people and they did their thing with his philosophy so to try and take away credit for what those teams accomplshed is totally unfair. Don’t forget while he may have been a lawyer he did play ball in college. He was a 2nd baseman at Harvard so it’s not like the A’s took some guy from Kazakstan and never heard of baseball to run their team. He just didn’t have any professional backround.

    “I even notice on interviews that when talking about players and/or prospects, Sandy talks about them in very general terms while the information we get from others pertains to the details we like to know. And I can never forget the first time I saw him in a sit-down interview on SNY because of one specific question he fielded from the viewing audience regarding bringing in the fences at Citi Field so the Mets could hit more home runs. Sandy’s answer (and I was shocked to hear this) was not bringing in the fences but having the players “learn how to hit home runs” there.. ”

    ” What type of answer was that? At first I thought it was just covering up so not to make the Wilpons look bad in their design of the field. And then, not even a year later, Sandy says we’re moving in the fences to rely more on our power.”

    Joe I honestly didn’t see that interview on SNY so I can’t say what he meant but I did see one on MLB Network last offseason shortly after he was hired and when the same subject was brought up, Sandy said he wants to see how the 2011 season plays out before he makes any changes to the ballpark. It’s a beautiful ball park and I’d hate to change it but if it shows to be unfair to the hitters then we’ll make changes to make it a more nuetral park.He then said but I’ll say one thing “Chicks dig the long ball and so do I”. At least he made the changes . Those dimensions were ridiculous.

    “Now Fonzi, I am really troubled by this particular thing you said: “The other thing you’re incorrect is his payrolls with Oakland. From 83 until 95 his payrolls were up among the league leaders, tops in the AL in 91. It wasn’t until Walter Haas died and Steve Schott and Ken Hauffman took control of the team that he was ordered to cut payroll and he only stuck around as GM 2 more years.”

    I don’t know how many times I posted exactly just that, and in precise detail, since I started following MMO. So often have I quoted exact payroll figures, their rankings in the majors and individual contracts to point that Sandy did not use money ball to build those great Oakland teams and that he began turning to that and advanced computer analysis upon the death of the owner. What happened in the THREE years (1996 – 1998) and beyond was an Oakland team the caliber worse than what we see now with the Mets.

    See joey that’s where wherever you’re getting that information wrong and I know why because it’s been reported wrongly and Sandy has refuted that he started wiith Sabermetrics when Haas died, he didn’t. He started when he became GM in 83.He stared reading Bill James books before he even became the GM when he was their General Counsil. He started cutting payroll in 95 but he was heavily relying on statistical data from day one. He said so himself. Moneyball was a book written about the A’s under Billy Beane. Moneyball and sabermetrics are not the same. Then you mention: “You contradict yourself in regards to Alderson. First you say he relied on his baseball people and he gets the credit for their work. Then you say he relied on advanced statistical analysis. Which is it? I’ll help you, it’s more to do with statisical analysis. His baseball people worked with his philosphies, not the other way around as you suggest. He was criticized for hiring the people he did because of their lack of baseball experience.”

    ” What I contest is that he was learning about Sabremetrics and the money ball concept for years and finally put them into practice when the money was taken away from him. Sandy’s career as a general manager was transitional, first relying upon the “traditional” baseball people and then slowly going out of the box and making things be done that way. That’s how his biography reads.

    As I said up above this is not true. He started right away with statistical analysis/Sabermetrics

    And as I’ve said before, his growing use of money ball combined with sabremetrics and less reliance on the traditional baseball insiders has resulted in bad clubs. Same with Billy Beane in Oakland and the Mets today (I’ve exhausted myself showing that the 2001 Oakland A’s were not going to fall apart with the departure of Giambi and Damon, not with that great pitching staff and other good hitters returning – and the role players Beane obtained through “sabremetrics” not being ones a baseball insider would not have sought,either.

    Joey while Oakland has not had any success in a few years now you can’t say they weren’t. He lost Giambi,Damon,Mulder,Hudson,Tejada,2 closers and still went to the ALCS in 2006. Take a look at how different his rosters were from 1999-2007 and his teams made the playoffs 5 times in 7 years. While those teams continued to lose players he continued to replace them with his farm system and others on the cheap. He’s had some bad drafts in the last few years and traded away some real good players to try and win when he had some pitchers. The point that I found is that the roles of the general manager have evolved – just like the sport itself (the use of sabremetrics and money ball has been quoted by many as being part of that evolution BTW) and while they all get the credit for making the baseball decisions, many of them don’t have enough inside knowledge of the game and rely more on what others request – and then determine which players the team can and cannot afford and then which ones to go after.

    “Bottom line – I thought one way but it’s my nature to remain open-minded so not to remain entrenched with my ways and thus the 180 degree turn about crediting Sandy, Frank and others having hands-on baseball knowledge on a professional level and realizing they were more involved with the business aspect. I’ve tried doing that with advanced stats and money ball and found that success on the field is unlikely to come from sitting behind a computer and balancing ledger books. Yes, one is a useful tool and the other is a necessity of business life, but the proportion of success either on the field or in the ledger book has become more myth than reality.”

    I agree with most of this, while Sandy, Frank and alot of the new age executives didn’t have any baseball backrounds I do think they’re more than just the business end of it all. I do believe that there’s no way in hell a team like Oakland will have that type of success again now that most MLB teams are using the same principals only they have money to back those principals up.

    Also one thing that is refreshing to know that while Alderson did his thing in Oakland almost exclusively through statistical analysis and drafting the more polished college players over the higher ceiling HS kids, he has done a 180 himself. When he was hired he immediately beefed up the scouting department, employing more scouts than we’ve had in the past and his 1st two picks last year were higher upside HS kids. So even an old dog can learn new tricks. He’s using both traditional and sabermetric principals.

    Ciao Giuseppe. Shalom!!!
• Joey D. March 18, 2012 at 11:23 pm

  Hi Fonzi,

  Thanks for the kind words – likewise, you know.

  I’ll have to take some time to reply to your comments but one thing that stood out was Bill Rigney having no experience. He played 26 years in the majors and managed the Giants and Angeles. Who better to have in the front office on matters regarding specifically to baseball than one with those credentials?

  Another was saying Sandy depended upon sabremetrics and money ball way before 1995. Though one of many places that I have read that 1995 is the turning point in this aspect of Sandy’s career, please note the following appearing in Wikpedia: “In 1995, team owner Walter A. Haas, Jr. died and new owners Stephen Schott and Ken Hofmann ordered Alderson to slash payroll. As a result, Alderson began focusing on sabermetric principles toward obtaining relatively undervalued players.[5]”

  Now Wikpedia is not the end all source of correct information, but the footnote number five is attributed to Michael Lewis from his book “Moneyball: The Art of Winning an Unfair Game” of which the movie is based on. As said, I’ve read this from other credible sources as well but, it is getting late so I’ll have to do my legwork another day.

  As far as Beane, I’m referring specifically to the 2002 club. Yes, the 1996 team was a major accomplishment but then it collapsed the following year and has not been the same since. If that’s considered successful, then all those who criticize Omar Minya have to rethink that since the Mets only made it to the playoffs under Omar that same year, 2006, and at least they waited till the last day of the season two years after that before being eliminated for post season play. The only difference regarding young players is that Omar got rid of them immediately whereas Billy waited until they reached arbitration status. In both instances, the players they let go still helped improve other teams instead.

  What I’ll also have to do is come across the articles quoting other major league general managers and executives regarding money ball and advanced statistics. Most all admit having tried it to one extent to another and have computer analysts on the payroll but most concluded that it had it’s benefits and limitations and that they were again turning back to the more traditional methods of building ball clubs. Again, allow me to do my legwork on this too.

  Live long and Prosper
  Joe
  • Mr North Jersey March 19, 2012 at 12:00 am

    Hi Joey D,

    Though this is not what your looking for as far as articles go. After reading your last comment I thought you might find some value in it nonetheless in that it is an article regarding the balancing of scouting & predictive analysis from the point of view of the current men overseeing the scouting departments of the San Diego Padres and the Chicago Cubs.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120317&content_id=27372998&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb
    • Fonzie13 March 19, 2012 at 12:16 am

      Thanks for the link MNJ. Pretty much what I said. Teams are using both. Maybe a few exceptions but for the most part they’re almost all using analytics and relying on their scouts.
    • Joey D. March 19, 2012 at 12:19 am

      Hi Mr. North,

      and thanks for the article. As mentioned, I think the advanced stats can be used as an aid in conjunction with all the traditional aspects of molding a team. I actually think all us fans from either side of the fence really don’t know how extensive or not what tools are used by any one organization and to which extent.

      I only know that whatever is being used currently for the Mets, it ain’t working.
      • Fonzie13 March 19, 2012 at 12:40 am

        LMAO!
• Fonzie13 March 18, 2012 at 11:55 pm

  Hey Joe!

  Yeah Wikipedia can sometimes lead in in the wrong direction. I thought the same thing myself after reading the same thing you’re referring to but there are other articles I found on Google after he was hired and if you look for more you’ll find better information than what you’ll find on Wikipedia. Actually I think Donal can provide the link to the article that will tell you when he started with advanced stats. Thats same paragraph also says ” Under Alderson, the A’s minor league system was rebuilt, which bore fruit later in the decade with 3 straight rookie of the year. They don’t give their due to Jocketty and Weincek.

  Yes I know Rigney played. That was his 1st front office job though. Just like 1990 was billy Beanes 1st front office job after his lousy playing days ended. You wouldn’t give him the credit for the 92 A’s though. Rigney managed for about 20 years as well. I think more credit would go to Dick Weincek and Walt Jocketty than it would Bill Rigney as far as building up the farm system. Rigney was the shoulder for Sandy to cry on

  . Also Sandy said himself that when he was General Counsil for the A’s he started reading Bill James’ Baseball Abstracts and that’s how he learned about the advanced stats. Again, Moneyball and Sabermetrics are two different things. Moneyball is the name of a book, about finding market inefficiencies. Billy Beane found that teams were undervaluing On Base Percentage and he found cheap players that nobody valued with good on base percentages. Now everybody values it so Beane has no more market inefficiencies to rely on. Now he has to draft well and he hasn’t. Oakland needs to find a new city but that’s for another day,lol.

  Joe, you’ll find that most teams are using both. I don’t know of any team that relies only on advanced stats and not traditional scouting. Even Oakland to some extent have brought in more scouts than they’ve had in the past. If you google sabermetrics you’ll find links that’ll show you which teams are employing stat analysts

  And I’m not sure which young players you’re talking about that Omar got rid of. He really didn’t trade too many young players. Bell? Bannister? I can’t think of anybody of significance, other than those two. The ones he traded for Santana didn’t anount to much.

  Talk to you later my friend.
  • Joey D. March 19, 2012 at 1:09 am

    Hi Fonzi,

    Wikepedia was only a quick reference point. Will look for the Cleveland Clinic of baseball for more specific and credible evidence.

    I think when it comes down to a team’s success or failure, we really don’t know who to give the credit to anymore. Too many in the front office. For all we know, some might even be using a weeje board.

    Oh, I know that money ball and sabremetrics are two different things but I think it’s the sabremetric analysis that helps produce the money ball valuation. From what I sense, those who place high emphasis on these highly complex calculations seek out market inefficiencies and lean more toward money ball than those who tend not to. But that’s just a thought on my part – I will look for that article (I think it was on MLB.com) which gave both sides of the debate and was very fair in it’s reporting.

    If you’re implying that Sandy used advanced stats to help him obtain certain players and build a farm system with when he had much more resources to use and then only expanded that to the practice of money ball when forced to in 1995, I can certainly understand that. But I know the friendly argument I have had with my other Met friends was that they supported Sandy’s 2011 winter signings because they felt Sandy was digging out under-valued talent missed by others. They also gave me reasons based on advanced statistical analysis to further make their case. All I could say was based on my limited baseball insight he was simply buying on the cheap to fill roster spots. Again, if Sandy is using Sabremetrics and by using those findings then went out to obtain players who can be called undervalued, so far he has failed miserably in his work as a general manager for the Mets. Either Sandy or those who depends upon for recommendations or both.

    The reason I think too much emphasis is placed on advanced stats for projecting how one might perform is that it cannot account for the human characteristic. Case in point was Lastings Miledge. A friend of mine pointed out based on Bill James’ quantitative analysis, Lastings had more the potential for a good major league career compared to similar minor league progressions of stars now established in the game. I disagreed based on just one observation – his immaturity and inability to listen to others and just do things the way he wanted. To me, that one point in his character flaw was all that was necessary to predict he would be a flop – or, in this case, a sparrow.

    I also thought Ryan Church was going to be a much better overall hitter playing at Shea while the same moaned about Omar giving up on Lastings too early. Well, Ryan was doing well until he smashed into somebody’s knee and was then told it was OK to travel.

    Same with Jason Bay. I though Omar made a mistake when signing Bay because Citi Field had messed up both Wright and Beltran and visiting players couldn’t stand it. I saw this happening to Jason even more so going from Fenway to Citi Field. But one argument was that most of his power came from pulling the ball down the line and thus he would not be affected like other players. Bill James through his complex formulas predicted a home run total in the high twenties while I said he would be lucky if he made it to 15. Again, the human element rather than the computer proved correct.

    But I’ve been in the dog house ever since I said the Mets gave up too early on John Maine.

    Regarding the young players Omar got rid of, I was referring more to the practice of discarding young talent in general more than the actual rate of success. Talent wise, Oakland got the worst of the deal. But I really do feel bad for Billy Beane having to literally give up his young talent when they become eligible for arbitration. Billy, do you know the way to San Jose?

    It’s later than I realized, old friend, so I really have to get going right now. Look forward to conversing more with you tomorrow.

    Best always,
    Joe

    P.S. To anyone else out there, there is nothing special going on between Fonzie and myself LOL.
    • Fonzie13 March 19, 2012 at 2:40 am

      Okay Joey.D have a good one. I agree with just about everything you said here. I do doubt any advanced stats were used to acquire any of last years players. I’m not too much into sabermmetrics myself but the few of their stats that I do look at from time to time didn’t make any of the signings look any better, lol. I think it was all about the allmighty dollar, They didn’t cost to many of them and that’s why we ended up with them.