17
2012
Collins All Smiles After Santana Completes Bullpen Session
An article by Hojo's Mojo
Good news today as Mets ace Johan Santana threw 25 pitches during a brief bullpen session, his first work from a mound since an instructional league last Fall.
The southpaw felt great afterwards and is scheduled to throw from a mound again on Tuesday.
As he did last spring with Carlos Beltran, manager Terry Collins will work closely with Santana keeping the lines of communication open so that his ace paces himself and tries not to do too much, too soon.
“Obviously, we we have to make an adjustment on a daily basis, as we did last year with Carlos,” Collins said. “It’s going to very similar … he’s got to be honest about the whole process.” Nevertheless, Collins was all smiles after he completed his throwing session.
The big thing after today’s bullpen session will be to see how Johan’s shoulder responds tomorrow. “We’ll see how it feels tomorrow,” he said. “Tomorrow is definitely an important day, and we’ll see how I recover.”
The plan for now is to let Santana participate in spring training as if he were not rehabbing from an injury, reports Andy Martino of the Daily News.
Make no mistake that today was a significant step for Johan and the Mets. ”I was able to throw all of my pitches and it felt good after that,” said Santana.
Collins understood the significance of that. “It’s a huge step for us,” the manager said. “It’s a big day for him, and now let’s just gradually move forward and build him up.”
Here’s a video from SNY…
About the Author: Rob Johnson
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Nationals | 26 | 17 | .605 | - |
| Braves | 26 | 18 | .591 | 0.5 |
| Marlins | 24 | 19 | .558 | 2.0 |
| Mets | 23 | 20 | .535 | 3.0 |
| Phillies | 21 | 23 | .477 | 5.5 |
Last updated: 05/23/2012
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Great news. If we get Santana back then we will finally turn these doubters into believers. Santana hands down can really turn this team into legit competitors because of his leadership not only through pitchers but hitters too. Heck maybe our pitchers can learn a thing or two about homers from Santana. Our pitchers need as many runs as possible.
LETS GO METS!!!
I wouldn’t say he’d make them a post season team.BUT…it would make them a bit more competitive…Maybe a 3rd place finish…
Last offseason I moaned and groaned because I thought the Mets were good enough to contend for the wild card if Alderson would have signed 3-4 solid role players, not stars, role players. Capuano was one. That said, the Mets proved I was right and up until Sandy dismantled the team the Mets were within earshot. I tend to agree with R.A. Dickey’s sentiments on that, “it felt like we got gutted”.
No matter how dilapidated an offseason Alderson does, when the season starts I root and hope for the best, not the worst as some do to get better draft picks. I believe leadership and winning starts at the top. Unfortunately this team won’t get a winning atmosphere from there and they will have to rely on themselves and also not expect any help down the road from this front office, and also the possibility that the team will get”gutted” again even if they are within 3-4 games of the wild card.
I’m excited for the new season and I hope the players well because they can win in spite of anything that Alderson did this offseason. I just hope Francisco can be half the closer K-Rod was.
You must have great hearing because before KROD was traded they were below .500, behind more than 6 teams on the WC and Reyes was hobbling on crutches. They probably needed 10 more role players to get into contention, maybe 20.
When the Mets traded K-Rod, they were over .500 and had four teams ahead of them in the WC, 6.5 out…if you figure out their win% after that devastating start in April up to when they traded K-Rod, they played .571 ball…you take in % and figure it in to the rest of the season, the Mets would have won 86(ish) games, that’s just a couple of games out of the WC lead…but they also played the Cards and Braves down the stretch….you never know…maybe adding a player would have tipped the scales in their favor.
I won’t pretend that this is a real legit way to figure a teams final record, but it does show that they were on pace to be “contending” up until the last week if they really wanted.
Instead, Sandy punted and the Mets played the rest of the season to an empty stadium, lost $70 and are forced to cut their payroll to $90 filled with a roster of “Hopes” and “Maybes”.
They weren’t drawing well before the trades of K-Rod and Beltran. Wilpon gave that interview in April when he bashed Wright,Reyes and Beltran and said they are going to lose an estimate of 70 million dollars based on projected revenue. Season ticket renewals were down big from the year before.He punted but he punted from his own 20.
Attendance was on the rise during the summer…The weather was bad in April and the poor start kept people away, the Wilpon story didn’t help…but winning fixes everything…even if the Mets didn’t make the playoffs, which was very likely even if Sandy didn’t punt…playing meaningful games in September would have brought the people to the park..plus people would be feeling much better about this upcoming season and I’d believe that ticket sales would be up.
Last year was Aldersons “honeymoon” period. Even us Omar defenders knew it was time for a change and we needed a GM to make smarter moves, so last year we were OK with him doing very little to stock up for the 2011 season. Now we see that Alderson is here (I believe placed here secretly by MLB) to cut costs to get the team back in the black, winning is not currently the priority. We all know that this team is 25 “hopes” and “maybes” away from even a possibility from contending. We also know that our GM isn’t going to do anything to try to win.
The Mets weren’t drawing simply because less fans could afford the ticket prices and all the other costs associated with a day at Citi Field like they used to
Around the time KRod and Beltran were traded the Mets had been within five games in the loss column for the wild card. Certainly not out of reach. They were simply undermined by the front office. And had they obtained some good players over the winter instead of the bargain basement types they did, the orange and blue might have even been closer.
The only point I disagree with regards Chris Capuano. A feel good story because he came back from possible career-ending injury to make every scheduled start but still, a less than mediocre performer who game up nearly two-thirds (.61) an earned run more per nine innings than the league average and finished a game under .500 only because he got the seventh highest hitting support in the league. Had the Mets done that for R.A. Dickey instead he would have won close to twenty and Chris’ won-lost record would have been worse than that of the knuckleballer. As it was, Capuano actually drew the Mets down more than up for even in his victories he was hit so hard that the bullpen had to be called in earlier to keep the game from getting out of hand.
You’re right about Cappy…I like the guy, I loved the story…and I think he performed better than his numbers show…but even the majority of his good starts, he couldn’t make it past six innings. It seemed like as soon as he hit 85 pitches, they wouldn’t let him start another inning. I don’t know if it was the Mets keeping on a strict pitch count, or if he was tired or because he doesn’t have any “plus” pitches and he gets figured out after a couple of times through the line up. It wouldn’t be that bad expect that no one other than RAD could go deep either.
I can’t believe he got a two year deal from LA.
Now I give him credit, he was coming back from injury, he finished his innings and gave us more than we’d expected. Plus he did it making a lot less than some of our other pitchers who got 6mil in arbitration.
I read from a few baseball insiders who followed the Mets all season long that they didn’t notice any change in velocity with Chris from the beginning through the end of the season – so it wasn’t fatigue.
The thought was it took the league some time to re-familiarize itself with him, Chris being out completely the two seasons prior. Hitters were no longer being fooled by his pitches. On June 23rd Cappy had an ERA of 3.99 and it must have been over 5.00 since that point to have finished up at 4.55. And that includes the one gem of a game he pitched in August plus the advantage of pitching half his games in the then spacious Citi Field (sabremetric fans will notice he had an ERA+ of -82). And if I recall correctly, Chris also had trouble facing the batter order the second time around.
Those into money ball have contended that for the little amount the Mets invested in him, they got great value out of Chris. From an economic standpoint, yes, but from a baseball standpoint, no, because the game is still played on the field and the bottom line is still performance. Saying one who went two-thirds of the season allowing an average five earned runs per start is a satisfactory because he was paid so little to me is pointless. In 2010 to get such a performance out of R.A. Dickey for the little amount he was paid – now that is a great value.
So keeping score on under-valued pitchers, it’s Omar 1, Sandy 0.
But still, I’m very glad he got a multi-year deal with Los Angles simply for the fact that he worked so hard to come back when others would have given up. But in all honesty, based on his pitching performance with the Mets he’s not worth that money. But wishing him good luck nevertheless.
I highly doubt that those trades had any impact on tickets sold. first of all the walk up gate has pretty much been replaced by stub hub. Those tickets were already sold. Not much could be gleaned from attendance figures anyway since that’s just a record of tickets sold but July had some real good attractions. The Yankee series, Dodgers, defending champion SF Giants, Philly series and the Cardinals as well. All 5 of these teams may very well have had more fans than we did! July 4th was a big draw too.
August had teams with much lower profiles like San Diego, Washington and Florida.
I was there in both months and watched on TV too and didn’t notice much of a difference except with some of the bigger attractions and those extra seats sold? All from stub hub and all by out of towners or fans of the NY Giants and Brooklyn Dodgers.
The Mets didn’t draw simply because less fans could afford the ticket prices and all the other costs associated with a day at Citi Field like they used to
Around the time KRod and Beltran were traded the Mets had been within five games in the loss column for the wild card. Certainly not out of reach. They were simply undermined by the front office. And had they obtained some good players over the winter instead of the bargain basement types they did, the orange and blue might have even been closer.
The only point I disagree with regards Chris Capuano. A feel good story because he came back from possible career-ending injury to make every scheduled start but still, a less than mediocre performer who game up nearly two-thirds (.61) an earned run more per nine innings than the league average and finished a game under .500 only because he got the seventh highest hitting support in the league. Had the Mets done that for R.A. Dickey instead he would have won close to twenty and Chris’ won-lost record would have been worse than that of the knuckleballer. As it was, Capuano actually drew the Mets down more than up for even in his victories he was hit so hard that the bullpen had to be called in earlier to keep the game from getting out of hand.
They were a game over .500, in 5th place for the Wild Card and barely scoring any runs, with a sub standard bullpen (one league average closer does not make a good bullpen) and an over achieving starting rotation. They had to get rid of Rodriguez to get away from that vesting option and Beltran was gone after the season, so they needed to get something for him.
Would you rather they face facts and deal with the reality of their situation, or grasp to false hope on the outside chance they get the Wild Card so they could get trounced in October?
Hi Donal,
When you ask
“Would you rather they face facts and deal with the reality of their situation, or grasp to false hope on the outside chance they get the Wild Card so they could get trounced in October?”
well, as said before, being told by the front office we don’t believe you are as good as you think you are is not the message any responsible general manager sends to a young team playing it’s heart out and achieving more than anyone ever expected – not a team in the “rebuilding” phase consisting of many who are expected to be our future (the injuired Davis, Duda, Neise, Tejada, Gee, Parnell and maybe even Murphy, Thole, Turner and Beato). One must allow them to get their feet wet and learn from being trounced on their own instead of having it done by the front office.
This can only have an adverse effect on all the players, knowing their efforts were and could be again undermined by ownership no matter what they accomplish. It wouldn’t be any less discouraging if told the Wilpons and Sandy believed in them 100 percent but the reality was they could not support their efforts due to financial restrictions so they must rid themselves of key players now instead of after the season.
I don’t know of any other franchise that ever made the moves Sandy did (or was forced to) being five games out in the loss column with only a little more than a third of the season left. Some might have decided it was not worth sacrificing the future by trading prospects for immediate help (i.e.., Kazmir) but they certainly did not dismantle the team, either.
What they did last summer (and indeed seem planning to repeat this year) was indeed detrimental to a team focused on baseball and committed to rebuilding. That is different from a team focused to saving money. The front office didn’t even give them the opportunity to experience what it would be like playing meaningful games in August and even possibly September. Win or lose, that experience would have beneficial to their growth and maturity in the long-term – not to mention not having to worry about a front office undermining their efforts, either.
Was that gamble worth more than gambling on a Zach Wheeler? From an immediate financial perspective,no, but looking at is soley from the baseball and “rebuilding” aspect, a definite yes.
Wow didn’t see my comment drew so much attention. Here are their standings on 07/12 one day before the KROD trade:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/standings/_/type/wild-card/date/20110712
1 game over 500, 11 games out of the division, 7.5 out of WC behind 5 team with 2 other teams just a game behind. Reyes, Wright and Ike are hurt. Why is it so hard to see the reality of the situation that they weren’t winning crap.
But they weren’t that good. It is a fact. they played above their heads for a little while, but the reality is they needed that tear in July just to reach .500. A responsible general manager doesn’t bank on that sort of thing lasting. Especially when it will hurt the long term for the franchise.
“I don’t know of any other franchise that ever made the moves Sandy did (or was forced to) being five games out in the loss column with only a little more than a third of the season left. Some might have decided it was not worth sacrificing the future by trading prospects for immediate help (i.e.., Kazmir) but they certainly did not dismantle the team, either.”
Honestly, too bad. Beltran was leaving and Rodriguez’s vesting option would have crippled the team worse than they are now. The faint hope that they would over take 5 teams for the wild Card with a bunch of guys playing way over their heads is not worth it.
“What they did last summer (and indeed seem planning to repeat this year) was indeed detrimental to a team focused on baseball and committed to rebuilding. That is different from a team focused to saving money. The front office didn’t even give them the opportunity to experience what it would be like playing meaningful games in August and even possibly September. Win or lose, that experience would have beneficial to their growth and maturity in the long-term – not to mention not having to worry about a front office undermining their efforts, either. ”
No, you’re reading too much into it. I know we all want to say “any given Sunday” and all, but you have to be realisitic.
They are professional athletes well aware of the situation. Letting them lie to themsleves into August and September at the cost of getting something for beltran and anchoring to Rodriguez for another year does not help rebuilding or build their confidence. I nfact, it would kill their confidence even more. Let them build it by actually accomplishing something, not pretending that they can and then failing.
Hey Gary how many games behind in the Wildcard were the Cardinals on August 26th?
And I find it just rediculous that the mets ACTUAL RECORD is taken as a dream when they are doing well yet after losing three All Stars the same nut jobs think the team is going to do better because of the GREAT JOB Sandy is doing!
That was more directed at the guy who replied after you gary just so you don’t get your panties all twisted!
“Hey Gary how many games behind in the Wildcard were the Cardinals on August 26th?”
5 games out, tied for second but also tied for their division lead. Wouldn’t you say that was a not so slightly different situation than the Mets?
Don’t worry Metsie, I never get my panties twisted, I go commando.
St. Louis on August and Mets in July are two completely different situations. August 28th is beyond a point where you can make trades and keep them from the playoffs. STL was way behind and pulled off a run that was unheard of, BUT they were are very good team.
Now St. Louis on 07/12 (the day before KROD trade), STL was tied for the division lead and 5 back of WC. How many trades or acquisitions did they make to improve their chances? None.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/team/transactions/_/name/stl/st-louis-cardinals
Now with the Mets. Being that far out having your, 3 best offense players on the shelf, 2 of them might not come back, the Mets took a long term view. KROD’s options was a noose on an already struggling accounting book. Beltran was not coming back. So moves were made for the long term benefit of the team instead of standing pat hoping for a miracle. Even if the team had no financial issues, I can see the same moves being made.
You wanna look that up again Donal?
AUGUST 26TH!!!!!!!
How many games out of the Wildcard were they again?
This is about the point when you and 10 of your buddies would play dogpile on Bayonne for making a simple mistake and misreading the webpage you read!
AUGUST 26TH 2011!!!
Here I’ll make it easy for you!
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/standings/wildcard.jsp?ymd=20110926#20110826
gary what does making trades have to do with the competitive nature of the team you have?
If we became BUYERS and traded for a top pitcher or even went after Pence would there be a big difference between our chances and Cardinals chances precisely one month later?
No they came back from a far worse defecit than we had to overcome in July!
The fact that there was a trading deadline means nothing!
The only difference is the card didn’t give up and kept fighting and we waved the white flag on a team who at the time was playing .593 baseball!
.593? Dude if that was the case they would of had the best record in baseball.
06/01 .455
07/01 .500
07/12 .505
We are going to disagree so no point ratting off the same crap again.
Still going on about last years wildcard race? St Louis was a much better team than we were. They had injuries just like we did and when they got healthy they put it together and won 90 games. They weren’t dancing around with an under 500 record. They had the best offense in the NL,a much much better rotation than we did and that’s even without one of the best pitchers in baseball out for the year,and a lights out bullpen despite their closer retiring earlier in the year. They had depth. People use injuries in 2010 for the reason why we ended up under 500 but St Louis lost Freese for half the year,Holliday for 38 games,Pujols and Berkman for 2 weeks a piece,Wainwright for the season and their closer retired after a quarter of the season and they still won 90 games.
Gary what was their Win PCT in June? Before K-Rod got traded?
What was their Win PCT in July the month K-Rod was traded?
What was it after both of them left in August and Sept?
Yes, I’m sorry I misread. Partly because by August 26th the Mets were already well out of it.
and I like how you suggest they be buyers.
with what? Valdespin? Harvey?
“No they came back from a far worse defecit than we had to overcome in July!”
The Cardinals were in much better shape than the Mets. the Mets were over ahcieving just to make .500.
yeah we heard that crock and Bull already!
Insisting and repeating the lie will not help make it true even over time and extra repeating of the same bullshit!
Mets were in no worse position in July than the cards were in August!
In fact they were in a BETTER position in July than the cards were in August!
They were closer to the Wilcard and had an entire month more than the cards to make it up!
What is easier to overcome?
Being behind by 7.5 with 60 games to go or being behind by 10.5 with 30 games to go?
They were better than the Mets in July!
And then lost a bunch and lost a ton of ground!
If we had kept who we had and kept on winning at a +.500 win PCT as we WERE DOING in June and July then we are not 7,5 games back in August in fact we are closer to 2.5 games back and back in the Wildcard hunt!
But keep on bullshitting your way through this so you continue to look as rediculous as you guys try to make Bayonne look when he merely misreads a stat line!
Hi Donal,
For a team to be told “too bad”, we’re getting rid of these guys now in order to get something in return is the way an accountant runs the team, not a baseball person. Nobody wants to send out the message to be professional and recognize you’re only pretending to be something you’re not and that you are lying to yourselves into August and September. That does not build character, it demoralizes it. Just because they are professional athletes doesn’t mean they are robots able to shrug it off and not become bitter. That’s the human element that can’t be understood if one looks at things only on paper.
Now I’m not comparing this team to the miracle ’69 club by any stretch of the imagination but consider the fact that even Gil Hodges admitted he didn’t believe his team could actually win the division until late August – he thought they might be able to win 85 games at best. If he and Johnny Murphy subscribed to the philosophy that the 69 club was pretending it was something it wasn’t they would not have traded Steve Renko for Don Clendennon who was not the long-term solution for first base for a team that was improving itself (especially with Ed Kranepoole actually sent down for a spell in 1970). For a young club believed to be playing above it’s expectations, the wiser solution would have been holding onto the young Renko who became the ace of the Expos staff for many years to come. One can only imagine how even more powerful a starting rotation of Seaver, Koozman, Renko, Matlack and Gentry (not even thinking about Ryan) would have been.
Also don’t ignore the fact that we are still dealng with human beings with human emotions. I don’t think anyone in any profession doing a thorough and professional project better than anyone expected would take in stride suddenly having it given to somebody else because the message from the front office was that one was pretending to be something he or she wasn’t and only lying to one’s self.
The human element doesn’t allow one to rationalzie “it’s nothing personal, it’s strictly business” – at least not the one being effected.
OMFG. Have you ever worked at a company where someone made a decision that you didn’t agree with. Different levels a company think and work along different lines. Front end workers (ballplayers) generally have to work in the moment and apply the policies and procedures that given to them from upper management. Upper management is constantly assessing the situation and making decisions regarding short and long term positions.
The ball players are grown men that get paid a lot of money. I am sure they were bummed out, but then they went home in their cash cab and got laid.
“For a team to be told “too bad”, we’re getting rid of these guys now in order to get something in return is the way an accountant runs the team, not a baseball person.”
No, it is how a realist runs things. A baseball person in charge of building and maintaining a sustainable winner can’t get emotionally involved in a short term thrill of maybe having kind of a slim hope at being near playoff contention later in the season.
You can try and dismiss it by calling it accounting, but you’re just not looking at it realistically.
“Nobody wants to send out the message to be professional and recognize you’re only pretending to be something you’re not and that you are lying to yourselves into August and September.”
And nobody wants to watch Beltran walk away for nothing and be anchored to $17.5 million for Rodriguez another year.
You do understand why 1969 was considered a miracle, right? Because there was no reason to expect it to happen. It was the exception, not the rule. Relying on miracles is a crappy strategy.
“Also don’t ignore the fact that we are still dealng with human beings with human emotions. I don’t think anyone in any profession doing a thorough and professional project better than anyone expected would take in stride suddenly having it given to somebody else because the message from the front office was that one was pretending to be something he or she wasn’t and only lying to one’s self.
The human element doesn’t allow one to rationalzie “it’s nothing personal, it’s strictly business” – at least not the one being effected.”
and how will the emotions work when they fail to make the playoffs because they aren’t that good and watch Beltran leave for another team? And can’t go out and try and at elast marginally improve the bullpen because their elague average “closer” (an over rated position by the way) is making an obscene amount of money?
Believe it or not, Sandy Alderson is a baseball man. what he isn’t is a fan. At least, not professionaly. He can’t be. His job is to be the adult in the room. To make the decisions that are hard, probably unpopular and at times hard to understand. He’s got to balance the long term with the here and now.
And it will take a hell of a lot more than 1 game over .500 and 6th place for the Wild Card to convince a smart baseball man to sacrifice the long term for the here and now.
Don’t forget the financial implication of tose trades on attendance!
The team was actually drawing lots of fans to go see them in July and once Sandy waved the retreat flag they stopped going!
Probably cost him 20 Mil in Ticket sales that would have left us losing only 50 mil as opposed to the 70 Mil he has been bitching about and hiding behind as an excuse to get rid of the rest of the expensive players we had who helped us get those fans back into their seats!
Joey D that is not true. Every member of the 69 team to a man always says that Gil Hodges told each and player on that team in spring training that he believes the team has enough talent and can win the pennant. He never put a fixed number of wins on that team.They believed in themselves because of the leadership of Gil.Seaver talks about it all the time.
Salty,
I wasn’t theorizing about disagreements on how to do a job. One has to be professional about that.
I was referring to work being exactly what the boss wanted and being taken away from them not due to any errors in development, initialization and result and not being rewarded for the fine work done for the company.
I’f I’m doing my job properly and the way my bosses want it done, I don’t want it handed over to somebody else unless I’m promoted, given something more important to concentrate on, or the workload has become too much to handle and I’m given some much needed asistance.
There’s a difference between the two. Just ask Sparky Lyle after he won the 1977 American League Cy Young Award.
No Fonzi, that is true.
If you can, get a copy of the Daily News 40th anniversary publication which reproduced pages from that 1969 season. In it there’s a feature that says Gil finally admits Mets are a contender. In it, Hodges said up to that time his hopes and expectations were that the Mets had a good chance of winning 85 games which would be a stepping stone for becoming a serious contender in 1970 and 1971.
What he told the players, of course, was different. And that’s what I meant about not telling a team it is not good enough.
Hi Donal,
Seems we have different philosophical takes on life in general and neither of us is wrong. We all have to be what we are and to not live our lives the way we feel it should means what we are doing is wrong.
So for me, there are times when one has to be realistic and ignore the emotions telling he or she to do the opposite while at other times being a realist often means not having the dreams, imagination or spunk to take risks to accomplish things one thinks impossible. This is especially true in the business world as we have learned through so many examples.
It often makes the world a less enjoyable place to be in – which, in this case, I think applies to our little world of Citi Field at this time when it didn’t have to be.
Live long and prosper, my friend.
Just a different take on things than your’s and neither of us is right or wrong.
Joey,
Doing what you are told successfully and results are 2 different things especially in a team atmosphere. I work for a software company where change is the most consistent aspect. You can be on all cylinders full steam ahead and then there is a bug that changes focus direction and implementation. Also just because workers can implement strategy maybe they are not the right fit for the job.
The Mets have bugs (Madoff, debt, development) had players that were no longer a good fit (KROD, Beltran), so decisions were made to change course. I fully believe KROD and Beltran were gone no matter what the financial situation was unless they were in striking distance. They were not so the team made decisions to move forward.
Joey you are spot on between being a realist and more emotions. It is detrimental to be just one. I just feel that last season just wasn’t the time to be emotional.
Hi Salty,
Yes, the situations in your software company demands such flexibility. I was thinking more along my side of work which is educational administration.
Regarding the Mets, it’s again a judgement call. Neither of us is wrong and neither of us is right. Too bad we will never fully know the result. Even if Wheeler becomes the pitcher we hope for it doesn’t mean that staying the course I suggested wouldn’t have worked out, either. The kids could have more confidence in themselves built on last year’s accomplishments with the now departed veterans, and considering that we have Harvey, Familia almost ready and still the potential in Gee and Neise that momentum and a few lucky breaks could have made us contenders before 2015.
Only thing to do is to energize ourselves down to the City On The Edge Of Forever and have the portal transport us back to prevent Sandy Alderson from making those moves to see whose hunch was better. Of course, such an interference in time could lead to a series of events that allowed Korea or Iran enough time to develop the bomb and take over the world….
Joey, I’m not saying to take all emotion out or that we don’t need balance, just that there is a time and a place. Emotion and hope are simply 2 luxuries Alderson doesn’t have at this point in time.
like I said, he’s not a fan, he’s an executive and the 2 can come into conflict.
Hi Donal,
Again, it’s just different takes. We’ll never know if there was one or two paths to take or one or two paths that should have been avoided.
And believe it or not, my reasoning is not based upon emotions but rather my own understanding (reasonable or not) on how a baseball team should be run and understandng of the human psyche (which is probably less than my knowledge of baseball LOL). I agree not to put all one’s eggs into one basket and had the key ingrediants of last year’s team been more veteran than youth, I would have said get rid of Beltran and KRod as well.
And if I was in the Wilpon’s position and wanted to hold onto the team, I might very well be following the same steps they are taking now faced with the same circumstances. The only thing different is that I would have built a bigger Citi Field as far as capacity is concerned so more fans could afford to buy tickets and that’s not being altrusitc but looking out for one’s business. That might have offset some of that $70 million loss. I also would have made the park feel less exclusive and definately would have the field dimensions made differently so not to take the bat out of our hitters’ hands altogether.
I would also have searched for one of the descendants of Homer to he or she could again hold signs in his or her mouth saying “Let’s Go Mets” among other things. That, I admit, is a totally emotional call.
What he said Joey is that if each pitcher wins one more game than they lose thats 85 wins right there and makes us contenders.He said that in an interview during spring training. Bud Harrelson once said during an interview that Hodges called a team meeting after a workout and said we lost 42 one run games last year,meaning 1968. We have the pitching and defense and what we need from our pitching staff is for each pitcher to win one more than they lose,do that and we’ll be 10 games over 500 and that makes us contenders. If I find the link to that story I’ll post it.
Hi Fonzi,
That was Hodges trying to inspire confidence in his young team and the right thing to say. O Even Joe Shultz tried to inspire confidence in his 1969 expansion Seattle Pilots as documented in a humorous way by Jim Bouton (what were Shultz’s words, “f*%k sh#t” or something to that detail?).
But Gil, being older and maturer, would also be a realisitic and was probably prepared for the young kids to falter at one point due to the natural learning and growing process and his job would then be to prevent that getting out of hand. That was probably the more realistic goal Gil had in mind until late August when the kids already proved they weren’t just playing over their heads and now he was intent on going for the gold ring.
I’ll try to remember to bring the book in tomorrow to scan the page to you.
Those decisions have to be made between July 15 and July 30th with the information available at that time. One game over .500 with a team so chronically under manned is no time to turn your nose up at a potential difference maker who could be here for 6-10 years.
How many trades in the last decade can you recall that were more future oriented than present?
Probably none. Two decades with more losing seasons than winning ones and you continue to want us to do the same damn things.
I found that Met tickets were a bargin. I buy on Stub Hub. I only paid less than 100 dollars and I received 16 tickets. Lots of games had tickets for two dollars.
Like the old song “I can dream about you, if I can’t (watch) you tonight.” Yes, we can dream. But when Johan gets battered around in spring training games and no one is sure what we can expect for the regular season (the way it is now)….remember, guys who have had that surgery don’t just come back to their old ways right away–if at all. Even if Johan comes back to his former self and wins 17, there are still too many question marks.
We aren’t doubters–we are realists. We’ve seen enough seasons of bad teams and good teams and know the difference. I’d start a string of IFs again, but we Mets fans have done that all too many years.
Let’s just hope it’s not as painful a season as it CAN be.
I understand your opinion but I used the word “legit” because most people are doubting the potential season this Mets team can really have but with Santana all those people will finally see the big picture. This team is not going to finish last place with or without Santana. This team has the best offense in the NL East and their pitching is the only flaw while everything else is either equal or better than everyone else in the NL East.
I really don’t understand why everyone is doubting the Mets, is it because we didn’t spend a lot during the off season like the Marlins? have 3 aces like the Phillies? have the best prospect farm like the Nationals?…Braves really have nothing going for them. People are really judging this team by paper and all I can say is, its not even Spring Training folks. Until Regular season I can only hold the Mets as every other team but when Regular season starts I will judge the Mets off how they play not some stupid paper or belief from everyone else.
LETS GO METS!!!
The Marlins have a better offense.
Vinny B, enlighten me.
I don’t think the Mets offense is going to be bad, I just think the Marlins are going to be really good. With Reyes and Bonifacio’s speed at the top of the lineup, and Hanley and Stanton hitting behind them, they are going to score a ton of runs. Plus they have Sanchez and Morrison who are also good hitters
The Mets offense was better last year, but that was with Reyes and Beltran. We have no leadoff hitter without Reyes. And now losing Pagan on top of Reyes, we have no team speed at all. Our offense has downgraded at SS, RF, and CF from last year. Wright and Davis coming back is going to help a lot, but I don’t think they are going to offest the loses of Beltran, Reyes, and Pagan.
Like I said, the Mets offense won’t be bad, it’s going to be OK(just not as good as it was last year), but, I just think the Marlins offense is going to be really good.
I understand your opinion and everyone has a right to say what they want and not have someone bashing their opinion. Now just hear me out; Marlins have Morrison, Bonifacio, Stanton, Hanley, Reyes, Infante, Sanchez and Buck. The Mets have Bay, Torres, Duda, Wright, Tejada, Murphy, Davis and Thole.
I say comparing Bay to Morrison is kind of tricky because sure Morrison is a good young player but his average wasn’t amazing and isn’t to fast on the bases. Bay hasn’t been too promising since his stint in Boston but with the dimensions in and he has proved he can be a 20+ HR and 75 RBI guy with an AVG. around 270 on a regular basis before but he did show promise in September. Now if you put the whole package together then Bay on the base paths is really good and not like Pagan and Bays defense is much better than Logan. So for now I say Morrison by a slight edge but if you put Logans best to Bays best its easy to say Bay got it.
Center field I will say Emilio got it but Emilio is no clutch player but just only a Reyes Jr. His AVG hit a career high last season and Torres is coming off a career low. Torres defense is better than Emilio but in offense I say Emilio for now.
The best debate is hands down this one. Duda vs. Stanton, both are mammoths in slugging. Pure raw power from both and for now I say Stanton because he did after all have a full season compared to Dudas half a season. Stanton defense is far better than Duda but Duda doesn’t strike out as much as Stanton and is way more patient. In my opinion, Stanton and Duda both have full seasons, it’s a draw. Both are monsters and when Marlins play my Mets I always look at Stanton because hands down Marlins got their best hitter since Cabrera.
Third base winner for me is Wright. Wright is far better than Hanley. Hanley is coming from a down season and so is Wright but compare both to the best of their abilities, Wright takes this by a long shot.
Shortstop, Reyes. Period lol
Second Base is Murphy. Infante has nothing on Murphy and I stick to that because Murphy is clutch believe it or not. Just look at the tape and Murphy was known from the start that his bat on offense is pretty damn good.
First base, Davis. If you tell me Sanchez is better than Davis then I have no clue what baeball you are watching. Sanchez is only good facing our Mets but other than that, a complete liability unlike Davis. Davis is a complete monster and we all know it.
Catcher is really a toss up. I say Thole because everyone knows Thole is coming off a huge down season unlike Buck who is known as a really really bad offensive catcher.
So I see, from my opinion, Mets got it because if you think about it we have 4 sluggers (Davis, Duda, Wright & Bay) compared to Marlins 3 (Morrison, Stanton & Hanley). Also the Mets are bringing the walls in and compared to last season Mets lead from the Marlins is still big with or without Beltran, Pagan and Reyes.
I don’t disagree with some of your points Bob but I don’t think we should flatter ourselves by comparing us to the Marlins. I don’t think Miami will get to the playoffs twice in the next 5 years anyway. We should be comparing ourselves to the Phillies, Braves and on the way up Nationals but if you want to look at Miami, they look a lot like us in 2005 and 2006.
Imports (Reyes/Beltran – Buerle/Pedro – Bell/Wagner – Zambranno/Delgado)
Good young inexpensive players (Stanton/Wright – Hansley/Reyes)
Draft (Fernandez/Pelfrey)
Similar situation. Quick start but nothing to back it up. When the injuries start adding up the farm has only a couple of guys and only one close (Dominguez 3B)
They’ll probably contend for a while and with this new playoff format, whenever it’s instituted will probably get them a Wild Card but that’s it from my vantage point. hey maybe since their in win now mode we could dump on salary on them.
I’d like to really be in the hunt for a playoff spot every year and only occasionally fall short.
I’m only talking about offense, so defense has nothing to do with this disscusion. You say Bay is a 20+ HR and 75 RBI guy? Well Morrison hit 23 HR’s and 72 RBI in only 123 games last year. I know Morrison hit for a bad average, but he actually hit for a slightly higher average than Bay. Also, saying Bay is a 20+ HR hitter is very optimistic considering how he’s played the last two years.
Torres is an awful hitter, and he shouldn’t be starting – He’s a 5th outfielder. And I think Stanton is better than Duda. Stanton is four years younger than Duda, and hit 34HR’s in his 1st full season in the majors. I really like Duda, but Stanton is better.
And I don’t think Wright is better than Hanley “by a long shot”. Hanley is a REALLY good hitter. Yeah he had a down year, but he hit .300 or higher and over 20 HR’s four seasons in a row before last year. And if you looked at their best seasons, Wright’s numbers aren’t “far better” and they both had down years last year, so I don’t see how you can say Wright is far better.
Agree on all points. and we’re paying 30 M for those 3 players and Miami’s paying about 14.
“Vinny B” Stanton is good, thats exactly why I said for now he’s better than Duda but give both full seasons and I’m pretty sure Duda will be equal to or better than Stanton.
Also I said an average Bay is 20+ HR, 75 RBI, .270+ AVG because just look at his seasons before 2010. Morrison is moving to a new ball park which he never hit in while Bay is getting the walls pushed in (something we all know affects him). Morrison is better now offensively so I have no clue why you’re arguing with me.
Are you literally out of your mind on saying Hanley is better than Wright? I’ll give you the facts from their first full seasons to now.
Hanley Ramirez – HR 17, 29, 33, 24, 21, 10; RBI 59, 81, 67, 106, 76, 45; BA 292, 332, 301, 342, 300, 243
David Wright – HR 27, 26, 30, 33, 10, 29, 14; RBI 102, 116, 107, 124, 72, 103, 61; BA 306, 311, 325, 302, 307, 283, 254
Like I said, David Wright is better by a long shot.
I still don’t see how he’s far better. In those seasons if you average it out, Hanley averaged 22HR’s, while Wright averaged 24. Hanley 72 RBI, Wright 98, and Ramirez hit .306, Wright hit .300.
And RBI’s for Hanley can be misleading because he hit leadoff for awhile.
So after looking at that how can you say Wright is far better???? Their numbers are almost exactly the same.
All around player Wright is a far better than Ramirez. You talked about Hanley hitting 20+ HR’s and .300 for four years but Wright surpassed him. Before Wright was always in MVP contention and got robbed by Rollins in 2007.
You really are committed in trying to tell me Marlins are better, are you a fish fan?
Wait a second, Pauly, there’s people here who RAVED about troy tulo, others love every braves prospect, and you’re gonna get on vinny for saying the TRUTH!!!??? bro, we get it, you love wright, but to say he’s better overall player than hanley is a STRETCH to say the least.. let it go… hanley has been touted the man in a marlin uniform, wright hasn’t.. the OWNER of the team admit to this, why can’t the fans???
“hanley has been touted the man in a marlin uniform, wright hasn’t.. the OWNER of the team admit to this, why can’t the fans???”
What in the heck are you talking about?
Also, this coming from someone who has uttered that Jose Reyes is the best player in Mets history.
As of this moment, or any moment for that matter, i rather have reyes than wright on my team….
Of course you would Alex, you are a blind Reyes follower. You can’t even say that about me and Wright as I have said and even posted about trading Wright. I pull much harder for the name on the front and you have shown many times you relate more to the names on the back.
The numbers YOU posted showed that Wright isn’t far better. The only thing Wright was better than Hanley was RBI, and that was because Hanley hit leadoff for most of his career. Their numbers are identical:
Hanley: 103 runs 362B’s, 22 HR’s, 72RBI, 36 SB’s 62 BB’s 101 K’s
Wright: 94 runs 382B’s, 24Hr’s 98RBI 21SB’s 74BB’s 122K’s
That is what they averaged in those years you were talking about – They are almost exactly the same. So I have no idea how you can say Wright is “far better”.
“Vinny B” fine “far better” is a stretch but we both agree Wright is better than Hanley. One thing you didn’t answer is if your a fish fan or not? hmm
“Alex” I never once in my life said I love Wright. Me personally I don’t like him since that home run derby crap. Before that, Wright looked like a very promising hitter for the Mets. People would compare him to Straw and ever since the derby he’s way down on almost everything. I liked him before but the derby ruined him for me. This man is clutch for 2 months and then 4 months of just as far from clutch as he can be. I recognize that but to say I love him then your out of your mind. The only player I liked the most in the Mets was Piazza for his amazing numbers and just great all around (cliche I know lol but leave me alone) and another one was Frenchy because of his attitude and his fielding which is fun to watch, his offense was pretty bad for the Mets but it was Citi Field’s walls that ruined him but in a beautiful place like Shea, he would be solid for sure.
“TRS” Alex likes Reyes so I cant blame him on that, hell I like Frenchy but I know I would get killed by all of you because of his tenure with the Mets. Now that Reyes is the best player in Mets history, absolutely not,Tom “Terrific/ The Franchise” Seaver is and best offensive player, no, Mike Piazza and Darryl Strawberry are. I say both because their tenure with the Mets made the Mets very popular but most importantly, very competitive.
The only real noticeable difference between Hanley and Wright’s numbers that you posted were in RBIs…and Hanley spent the majority of his career as a lead-off hitter, so that explains that. And having read what Vinny B said, he never said Hanley was better…he simply stated that “Wright’s numbers aren’t “far better” and they both had down years last year, so I don’t see how you can say Wright is far better.” Feel free to continue your conversation now comparing the 2 teams that will be in the cellar of the division.
“Trade Wright” guy, for you being a philly fan I have no clue what you’re doing here.
Now feel free to continue your enjoyment for a team that chokes with the 3 aces on a yearly basis.
Philly fan?
Pauly the HR derby didn’t ruin Wright. He may have picked up some bad habits for a while after the break in 2006 but he did have his 2 best years in 2007 and 2008 and both of those years were after the HR derby in 2006.
I’d love to be wrong but I’m predicting Johan won’t be ready for opening day. Odds are they wind up leaving him behind to rehab more as his arm strength and velocity aren’t where they should be to pitch effectively.
SRT,
Sadly, you make a valid point. Hope it’s not the case nevertheless.
*Yawn*
Only thing I take from this is what Collins had to say…”We’ve got the left-hander coming back and no one knows how good he’s going to be…” I don’t put much stock in that clubhouse presence nonsense, considering he hasn’t pitched in the majors in 2 years and this is a last place team…especially, when they mention Pelfrey, hasn’t Pelf been on a pitching staff with him since 2008? Yeah, his presence is really paying off. I love Johan, he should’ve won 24 games and the Cy Young in ’08, but his career, at least as an ace, is over. If we, as Mets’ fans, are hanging our hopes and dreams of a phenomenal season on a 33 year old who hasn’t pitched in 2 years and is trying (thus far, unsuccessfully) to come back from major surgery, then we are even more F’d than I thought.
Torres, Tejada and Thole all weaken the lineup. Will Wright come back strong? Can Duda improve? Will Ike continue strong? Will Bay still suck? It’s not a strong lineup, the bench is weak, the pitching is weak. Don’t kid yourself.
This lineup has the potential to be a good one.
And Torres is going to surprise a lot of people. He plays the game all out and Giants fans were upset he was traded being he was fan favorite.
His 2011 season was marred by injury therefore he should be able to reproduce a healthy 2010 and I think with both Collins and Hudgens advocating a disciplined plate approach learning his own hitting zone, he should have a solid OBP and steal 25-30, if not more. He’s also a good defensive CF in contrast to the disaster than was Pagan last season.
Too many Mets fans are vested in a bad season and go into this season down and out. People forget that the Phils, Braves, Marlins and Nats all play each other 18-19 a year and someone loses each game which means the division has chance to be balanced and the Mets need to play .500 within the division to compete while beating up on the weaker teams in the rest of the league. It can be done. Let’s not be so negative. No one predicted the Mets would do anything in ’69 or ’73 either.
How does Tejada weaken the lineup? He hit .284 in 328 ABs for crissakes even better than I thought he would do so early. And he made pitcher work like no other met so that’s become an invaluable intangible (?)
I agree with LifeLong that the lineup is not that bad and can score runs and maybe Torres does hit – who knows.
But these are the things that piss me off so much with Alderson because it’s as if he wants no part of the Minaya regime to succeed. It’s mostly Omar’s team still and Alderson refuses to make it better in the right way for 2 seasons. The team needs SP and a catcher to work with Thole. I think Thole can wind up hitting well i’m just very skeptical about his D. This team needed SP, another reliever or 2 COULD have been had for much less than the 15.5 million Sandy ridiculously wasted on 2 relievers.
When you put it in perspective of what the team needed to compete it makes it even more ridiculous that 15.5 million was wasted on 2 relievers!!!!
Along with SP, the team needed to be strong up the middle. That wasn’t done. Murphy is a clutch bat but he’s not gonna remain at 2B – mark my words. I don’t know what’s gonna happen. Maybe it never gets to that because Havens or Valdespin makes the team out of ST. And who knows how much Torres hits – if he hits than we’re OK in CF defense wise i guess.
Sandy spent the bulk of the team’s money in the wrong areas. This team should be better than it is now and THAT is Aldereson’s fault. Heck we have 3 GMs in Sandy, Google Boy, & Ricciardi – and this is the best we get. Not good.
I don’t see Tejada hitting .284 again. But even if he does, it’s a Luis Castillo-like powerless effort. 1 HR & 31 RBI will not be enough. Thole’s another Castillo and Torres is a lifetime .244 bum. And the bench is weak.
They’ve been saying news about johan for the past 2 seasons. it’s a shame what happened to him, but one come to admit when a player is injury prone.. imo, he will never be the pitcher we were hoping to get, i like santana and i think this is the pedro martinez situation part deaux. but even worst due to the years and salary..
Yeah, the move was still a good one. We were all in at the time and Johan was the best pitcher available. Now we are paying the price in many ways of going all in… just gotta hope he can come back to be a mid-rotation guy and gut out another 40-50 starts.
Without Johan, we don’t even come close to being eliminated in ’08 as late as we were.
I’m in the camp of still thinking the Santana trade was a good one. Too bad the way it worked out with his health but just don’t know if you can predict injuries that precisely. Also too bad the contract is as long as it is but probably the only way we were getting him, although we’ll never know for sure.
hear hear my friend..
OK gang,
Since nobody picked up on my Star Trek reference, thought we can all share a little levity by going through that time portal to see what would have happened had Sandy not traded Beltran and KRod instead.
Those not familiar with the episode “City On The Edge Of Forever” a crazed Dr. McCoy jumps into a time portal knows as the Guardian and suddenly there is no USS Enterprise or anything else except for those who beamed down to the planet’s surface. Kirk and Spock have to go back in time and find out what McCoy did to alter history and thus prevent him from doing it. Now we’ll get to the point that Spock’s tricorder shows a newspaper headline about Sandy getting rid of Krod and Beltran followed by another which said KRod and Beltran stayed with the team.
Kirk: They both can’t be right.
Spock: Somehow Dr.McCoy affected Sandy Alderson’s decision and depending what he made the GM do – keep or trade those two players – altered all of earth’s future history.
Kirk: We must find out what Alderson was to do before McCoy changed his mind.
Then after Spock gets the tricorder to work again:
Spock: This is the focal point in time that changed all history. Dr.McCoy was reading MMO and came across a Joey D’s plea for the human element. McCoy, being a devout believer in the human spirit, convinces Sandy to act upon his emotions and not his logic. Thus, the newspapers report the general manager turned down a deal to acquire a Zach Wheeler in exchange for Carlos Beltran while keeping Rodriguez and paying him that $17 million bonus.
The result is either way the Mets do nothing the rest of the season but then comes the ripple in time. The young players Joey D said would learn from that experience never amount to anything. The money the Mets had to pay Krod prevents them from signing their draft picks and in a few years those same amateurs are with other teams and develop into all stars. In addition, the pitching prospect Sandy turned down to keep Beltran turns out to be another Tim Linscome. Meanwhile, players like Gee, Niese, Murphy, Parnell, Turner, Tejada and Thole fade into obscurity while Davis and Duda, fed up with the team going nowhere, opt out for free agency.
The anguish becomes too much for millions of Met fans and violence erupts in the streets between the sabremetrics ad the traditionalists. With the government preoccupied with domestic violence, North Korea and Iran have time enough to develop the bomb and launch their missiles.
Kirk: And all this because McCoy stopped Sandy Alderson from trading Rodriguez and Beltran?
Spock: Yes. World War Three breaks out and the entire planet is engulfed in thermo-nuclear war. Space travel is never achieved and the Mets leave the New York area because Newark refused to let them lease its unoccupied minor league ballpark after Citi Field was destroyed by a nuclear warhead.
- with apologies to the late Gene Roddenberry.
I got it. Pop culture references tend to fall a little flat around here. Baseball is serious business.
Does sound more logical than a discussion on Santana’s arm ending with a mushroom cloud annihilating Citi Field.
Thats all great but what if one of the headlines was Mets get the Wildcard?
What if Sandy changes the history that was supposed to be the mets win three straight WS in 2012, 2013, 2014 by building around Beltran Reyes and K-Rod?
What if Attendance grows in August and September so that the team only loses 30 Mil, 20 of which is already cut due to Perez and Castillo coming off the books?
Thats the problem with What Ifs Joey…
They are just as valid for BOTH sides of that coin!
What if Last year with Beltran and K-Rod was the year they finally win a WS like the Cards did after being even futher back in the WIldcard race than WE were one month later!
What If! Only usefull if you have a tricorder from the future that actually knows what WOULD have happened if WHAT IF happened!
Metsie,
Could have had McCoy travel back to 1956 and convince Robert Moses to let Walter O’Malley build his new ball park in Brooklyn. Would have saved a lot more “what if’s” that way.
LOL !
Being from Brooklyn that would have definitly had an impact on which team I was rooting for today! LOL
Yeah, and then we’d be having a heated argument on whether or not our beloved bums made the right move signing Capuano to a two-year contract not to mention still having a team that was going broke!
Yep and no one would be complaining about all the dodger stuff at CitiField either! LOL
Came across the August 27, 1969 article by Phil Pepe in which Gil Hodges admitted he didn’t consider the Mets contenders until that time. Pepe writes that Hodges goal in spring training was to win 85 games. A few days earlier when another scribe asked Gil if he thought the Mets were contenders Hodges retorted back “where have you been”. But Pepe goes on to quote Hodges on what he said those few days earler:
“”It’s too early” the manager of the Mets kept saying. “If we’re this close by September, then I’ll consider us a contender”"
So even though the realist in Hodges believed up to then it was too soon to seriously consider the Mets a contender, he did not let that on to his players foor that is not what any manger would do thinking of the future and wanting to build up team confidence and instilling a winning attitude with his young players, thinking ahead to the seasons to follow.
This is completely different than what happened to the Mets in 2011 and why I contend the moves made last summer did more damage than good for a franchise whose front office says their goal is “rebuilding”. Rebuilding also means instilling a winning attitude which was something the no-nonsence Hodges did his first day in spring training back in 1968. That winning attitude, that spark and that confidence we saw from the team through the end of July quickly evaporated when they lost their veteran closer and top hitter. Yes, neither was going to be with the team in 2012 but what the young players garnered from presence and contributions would be felt beyond 2011 and be vitial for their growth and maturity in the years 2012, 2013 and beyond.
By undermining the team the front office broke it’s spirit. There was nothing left of the winning attitude that Terry had molded nearly two thirds into the season.
From an article that appeared on the web in late September:
“After defending his team’s fight and will all season, the New York Mets manager said his team has “folded it up” following a 10-1 loss on Thursday to the Nationals that marked the Mets’ sixth straight defeat and dropped them to 1-8 on their just-completed homestand.
“Perception is reality in our game and the perception I have right now is we’ve folded it up,” Collins said in a passionate postgame news conference. “You want to see intenseness? You want to see me be intense? You guys are going to see it. I won’t play that game. You come and play the game right. I don’t care what the situation is. I don’t care about anything but playing the game correctly. That’s all I care about. Our fans should be upset. I don’t blame them one bit.”
See what I mean about the damage being a realist can do.
That 10-1 loss came at the end of a 6 game losing streak. Collins after that got exactly what he expected. The Mets won the next game 12-2. They played .500 ball the rest of the way.
But Collins was talking about the intenseness. A team could be on a losing streak and still play it’s guts out.
These kids “folded” as Terry put it while adding “You come and play the game right. I don’t care what the situation is. I don’t care about anything but playing the game correctly. That’s all I care about.
That’s the momentum we have building going into 2012 – quite different than what we were seeing in late July. Again, the point about re-building isn’t just all about the minor leagues – it’s about those guys on the team now and expected to be there when the others come up.
Granted, the financial situation left the general manager no other choice. But I’d rather read fans saying that made good financial sense instead of saying getting rid of KRod and Beltran made good baseball sense from the perspective of rebuilding. I don’t think getting a Zach Wheeler was a better gamble than letting the kids play out the season with all the support the front office could give them to build up character and a winning attitude.
Being a professinal does not mean having a winning attitude. It means players caring more about their own individual performances than they do the team winning or losing. That does not build up a ball club – as we have painfully learned all too often in the past.
Yes but the point is this came after a 6 game losing streak in mid September. This is not him saying this was the case since July 27th. It is more a reflection on what he saw over the last 10 days.
Terry did not specify he was just talking about that losing streak nor did he specify he was talking about the team since July 27th, either. All he did was make it known what the attitude was in the clubhouse as of that date. We don’t know how long he was thinking this but as fans, we certainly saw the beginning stages of a lack luster team effort before that time.
Now look back at Mike Pelfrey’s statement upon getting rid of Beltran, made before Terry then told the club it could not let itself be sidetracked by it:
“I understand that if you want to get something back for him you have to trade him,” Pelfrey told the New York Post before the Mets’ 4-2 win — and prior to Collins’ comments. “In the same sense I would think if we ended up getting rid of him, the front office’s view is that we don’t have a chance, because he gives us our best chance to win. If he’s not here, then they felt we can’t rebound from where we’re at.”
Now granted Pelfrey didn’t help the Met cause at all this past season, but the words he said have to be taken seriously for the reasons going into this season that I have already stated. These guys don’t have short memories.
There is no doubt that the players were saddened to see Beltran be traded but they are not naive and they knew this is part of the business and expected that his could happen at some point all season.
Again my point is that Collins quotes in my opinion based on when he said it and what transpired before he said it had more to do with the recent homestand than anything else.
The GM himself said on wfan in an interview with Joe & Evan that it would be fair to say that the trading of Beltran would signal the waving of the white flag. Pelfrey saying it was nothing more than an acknowledgement of the reality of where they are but they still have to show up and play. Collins would not allow for anything less and they again went 18-20 up until that horrid homestand which resulted with Collins calling out his players on what he thought he was seeing.
The result was what he got.
From the morning the New York Mets traded Beltran till they got Home for that home stand in September they had gone 18-20. Then as you pointed out they have a horrid home stand going 1-8 with the climax being an ugly 10-1 loss that marked their 6th straight loss.
Heck yea Collins was pissed and concerned that this team may have folded their tents and started looking ahead to 2012 and he was not going to have it and he let it be known. The result? The team came out the next game and won 12-2 and played .500 ball the rest of the way.
Going18-20 after Beltran left doesn’t take into account all that happened since that time and the fact that losing these two players had a profound effect on the team.
Before that losing streak began the Mets went 16-22 after reaching a high of 55-51 on July 29, still playing great despite the recent losses of Beltran and KRod beforehand. But that was just for a handfull of games. After their 55th win the team repeated it’s early season start with a dismal 5-17 record. If one includes that losing streak, the record since July 29 was 16-28.
Quite different from what we had been seeing through mid-season as the attached shows.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/750105-meet-the-2011-mets-a-midseason-review-of-the-new-york-mets
So I suspect Terry might have been pissed a long before September 15 rolled around.
“So I suspect Terry might have been pissed a long before September 15 rolled around.” Your well within your right to have that opinion if you do so. For me it continues to be my opinion that it was more to do with the recent home stand than anything else.
Yup, as I said we really don’t know.
When he extended Terry’s contract Sandy said “”Very definitely did not want to interrupt the momentum he has created”. You know I feel tha’ts exactly what he did getting rid of KRod and Beltran. That resulted in going 16-28 after a 50-37 clip.
And I’m afraid that negative momentum is going to carry over into the 2012 season.
Joey, here is a quote by Collins regarding his criticism of the team after that 1-8 homestand after winning the next day 12-2.
“I hope it got across. Again, I don’t want to take anything away from how hard we played all year long. The last few days I just didn’t think we got ourselves ready. … Coming down here and playing in a situation that you’re playing against a team that’s going for the playoffs, I think kind of made a big difference too. The games mean something. They’re important. And they know it. Our guys are certainly aware of what’s going on here. I think that helped a lot, as a matter of fact.”
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/34907/wright-likes-tc-but-credit-limit-exists
Then you’re right about what Collins was referring to at that press conference. Guess what I also failed to consider was that he was also displaying that anger less for the media as it was an indirect effort to get his team back on track for the last two weeks of the season.
But it was still obvious by their play after those trades that something more upsetting than wins and losses was occuring. The young players started making more mental mistakes, began pressing too much, seemed less confident in their ability and eventually, the spark they had for so long was lost. Again, I’m afraid about that carrying over to 2012 with the confidence built upon that 50-37 clip fading away.
Well, Johan did pitch off a mound in a real game (2 actually, plus whatever he did in the instructional league) last year. More of a proof of concept, but it was significant in that he was able to do it, and even had something passing for stuff and control. If that did nothing else, it should have helped get over the mental hurdle (can I still pitch?)
So what he seems to be saying, which makes sense at this point, is that he is not in rehab, rather he is like any other pitcher getting ready to progress through ST.
As to the discussion up above about the offense this year, a couple of random thoughts:
In RF, Duda in the 2nd half was as productive (and by some measures, more so) than Beltran was. So it is debatable what kind of downgrade that is.
But, what is getting overllooked is that Duda is not replacing Beltran, and Tejada is not replacing reyes. the reason is, they were all playing together at some point (Tejada at 2B, Duda at 1B).
So if you look at the lineup at the end of the year vs. the beginning of this season (current projection), the real changes are:
Ike replaces beltran/whover it was filling out the OF while Duda played first.
Murphy replaces reyes.
So, looked at that way, there really isn’t this big drop off in offense.
also, for whatever reason, the mets scored MORE runs in the 2nd half. And reyes really only had a big 1st half. In the 2nd half, he missed a chunk of time on the DL, then was a shell of earlier in the year for most of the rest of the season.
thru 7/2 (Hammy time), reyes hit .354 with a .927 OPS> A huge outlier career year.
7/19 – end of year, he hit .305 with a .784 OPS. Much more in line with his career (kind of in the middle, other than BA). But, even that was inflated by his hot last week. 7/19 – 9/21, he was at .280 with a .704 OPS (way off career norms sinc e2006).
So basically, outside of the last week, reyes really wasn’t doing much in the 2nd half for 2 months when he was playing. So if the offense was OK in that time period, it should be OK this season.
Hi Any,
My thoughts about Duda and Murphy as it pertained to Beltran had to do with last season when Beltran did not have to be traded to make room for either one’s bat. Duda was replacing Ike Davis at first and Murphy was playing second so baring those injuries and the trade, that trio could have remained in tact for the full year.
Irrelevant past 2011 for Beltran was not going to remain with the club and I think we are better off long term with Davis and Duda than we are Davis and Beltran. Of course, Lucas’ glove is the subject of much conern.
Heard Johan’s short interview on WFAN at 1pm almost as soon as he got off the mound.
Said he was happy just to get back on the mound, working on his mechanics. He’s optimistic, felt good, but is realistic as well.
Getting back on the mound Tuesday and he said we’ll all know soon enough – himself included – if he’s good to go for Opening day.
I’ve said I won’t think about Santana until I see him pitching in a regular season game. If though I were to allow myself to slip and start thinking about him before starting the season it would probably be after his 2nd outing of pitching at least 5 innings on 5 days rest. I’m not so much concerned with his velocity as I am with his ability to hit his spots. After reading about the difficulties others have had recovering from this it’s just easier for me I guess to try and not think about him till the regular season but it will admittedly be difficult to do so.
Well this makes a lot of sense – The article is about Santana pitching on the 17th, but there are reader comments going back to Feb 13. What’s up with that?
The way the Mets played last season, I would be smiling too if I was Terry Collins. If the Mets have another bad season, it’s time to call Mr. Wrights number… time to go!
-CDR