19
2012
MMO Fair or Foul: Who Is Wright?
An article by 
Buster Olney of ESPN.com, talked to three evaluators about Wright’s game.
From an AL evaluator: ”He will have value at the trade deadline if healthy and performing as usual. He will bring compensation as a free agent, so his value to Mets is fairly high, and a team acquiring him will have to give up more than the value of a couple of high draft picks. He’s a very good player, but not consistent enough to be a star on offense and defense. His defense has gone backwards and get into funks offensively. He’ll produce numbers, and most every team would want him, but not as a No. 3 or a No. 4 hitter on a good team.”
From an NL evaluator: ”Wright’s value is limited by the lack of control and expensive salary. He’s not a great defender and hasn’t cleared 20 HR in two of the past three seasons. He’s been trending downward by most statistical metrics and our scouts are concerned his swing has gotten long and slow, leading to a high strikeout ratio. Think about it this way: Aramis Ramirez just signed a 3-year, $36 million deal with the Brewers. Ramirez is a better hitter and similar defender to Wright — who is due $31 million for the next two seasons if his option is exercised — so what are you paying for? Make-up? Fame?”
From an AL scout: ”David Wright is a potential coup. He’s eerily similar in value to the Seattle version of Adrian Beltre, although he (and everyone else in baseball) is not the defender that Beltre is. He and Beltre both were suffocated by their home parks, Citi Field and Safeco Field, respectively. Teams should have pounced and offered Beltre a premium multi-year deal when he left Seattle originally. If available, I’d trade and sign Wright now. Another caveat with Wright is that he’s performed and handled himself admirably in New York, which bodes well for any type of market going forward.”
Kind of like the good, the bad and the ugly… Not one of them referred to his fractured back injury, an injury that has wreaked havoc on many a great player’s career in the past. I happen to think that we haven’t heard the last of that.
I still feel there”s a chance Wright will be traded BEFORE the 2012 season.
Some value is still better than ZERO value if that back starts barking in April.
Plus I’m pretty sure that saving $7-8 million on his salary will have the approximate net value of 15-20 sold out games at Citi Field.
I’m pretty sure that CRG will be pointing out these facts as part of their initial report that should be ready around Feb. 10. I remind you of the three steps a turnaround consultant told me that CRG will recommend.
- Stop the bleeding. (Saved $70M by cutting payroll, workforce. Sub-leasing assets.)
- Trim the fat. (Eliminated a minor league affiliate, may cut more payroll?)
- Make better financial decisions moving forward. (Hired Alderson and CRG, kept Howard and Ricco, stopped meddling)
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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Who is David Wright? He is soon to be a former Met…and should be. Been in decline for 3 seasons, and the Mets should move him ASAP before his stock plummets even more. His HRs will probably be up this season, but it’s hard to imagine his BA breaking .280 with the team around him. He’s a complimentary player, not a star player.
The NL Evaluator is right, and the AL evaluator is right if his “if” comes true.
I wanted to add something I researched last night but forgot to include in this post. Everyone seems to think 30 homeruns in the newly modified CitiField is a slam dunk in 2012. It isn’t.
Wright’s back injury which everyone is choosing to ignore is not something that will go away. The fracture will lead to arthritis and occasional chronic pain that will affect his swing.
When Wright proclaimed himself 100% after his return from the DL, he was not the same player.
August and September
In 2010, Wright batted .298 in 203 AB with 12 home runs.
In 2011, Wright batted .227 in 229 AB with 6 home runs.
His power was off by 50%, small sample size yes, but also very indicative of what’s happened to other players with similar back injuries in the past.
Remember back in the day when the Mets refused to go after Vlad because of his back history. That worked out… doh!
Who knows what Wright will be, that’s exactly why he’s not being traded (in my opinion). His value is too questionable. If the Mets want to deal him they have to prove 2012 is a new year, and have to prove he is healed. If he stumbles out of the gate, then his value is no different then than it is today
Edgardo alfonzo and joe crede… for every vladimir guerrero remember there’s plenty of those 2…
Vlad never had a fractured back and as it turned out Phillips had an ulterior motive for using that as a lame excuse for not signing him.
Right, I’m just saying it brought back memories of the pesky back injuries
I still think Wright’s value is determined from April-July. Can he become the face of the franchise that keeps things afloat at Citi Field while the roster gets younger (see: Michael Young in Texas) or can his value increase enough that its worth trading him?
I think Wright better stay off the DL and have a great season if the Mets do something crazy and decide to keep him. Otherwise after next season they will be forced to pick up a $16M option on a 30 year old player with a 4-year decline under his belt. Or let him go without any draft compensation in return.
Vlad didn’t have a stress fracture.His injury was totally different.Remeber,Mattingly’s original injury started with a tiny stress fracture and wound up with annular tears in 3 discs.Alfonzo also had annular tears in 3-4 discs.Hopefully Wright rested long enough last year and allowed it to fully heal,if not he will have problems the rest of his life.He needs to stop diving into bases head first.
I do agree to an extent. He did not look good at all the final 2 months of last season and I’d want to see him looking good at the plate again before I fully believe that the injury is behind him.
But at the same time, I don’t think that if the injury affected him in Aug/Sept 2011 it will necessarily effect him long term. Getting off the DL and back to playing doesn’t necessarily mean he was at full strength when he came back. Its not unreasonable to think that its something that will get better the further away he gets from the injury…and he’s said this offseason he’s worked a lot at strengthening his back. So hopefully that means it will be better going forward. Its also possible that being idle for so long caused some of his problems…basically doing nothing at all for two months, he might not have been in the “game shape” he typically was in, and maybe going from doing nothing and then pretty quickly into playing everyday took its toll a bit.
And also while I do agree that back injuries are a concern. I’m not sure that his “type” of injury is all that similar to the other ones that are often cited. I don’t think there are many comparables to the actual injury (stress fracture of the vertebra) that Wright had. I believe Mattingly did some damage to his discs, I’m not sure exactly what Fonzie’s was. But generally those type of injuries don’t heal as well as bones do. And at least some people including the self-proclaimed “injuryexpert” say that Wright’s injury isn’t the same as those others, and don’t think it will be a long-term issue. (Though I did read earlier this offseason that Wright still feels some “discomfort” in his back at times, but that he doesn’t view it as a big deal…so I don’t know how concerning that is or isn’t)
Does the team that gets David Wright in a trade get draft picks once DW becomes a free agent after the Season he is traded (his option, as i get it)? i thought it’s been stated here that he does, but Adam Rubin says he does not. Which view is correct?
He’s a very good player, but not consistent enough to be a star on offense and defense”
Beltran, Reyes and Delgado were the real stars ofthe offense, wright got the least attention of those 3, therefore he was the one teams needed to pitch to.
He’ll produce numbers, and most every team would want him, but not as a No. 3 or a No. 4 hitter on a good team.”
On the mets, when beltran and delgado at their peak, he was the #5, instead of looking for a true #4 hitter like adam dunn to replace delgado, minaya opted for bay, wright suffered the most because the offense was focus around him, result has been 3 year of high and many, many lows..
He’s not a great defender and hasn’t cleared 20 HR in two of the past three seasons
Imho, he let citi field get to his head, if this is the face of the franchise for more than this year, we’ll be even in more trouble.. he was at his best hitting the ball to right, right/center field, he was more clutch and even had more power that way, but, the mets idiots build a stadium that took away his strenght.. result has been him pulling the ball more and striking out at a rob deer pace..
Agree with much of what you said. I will say that no one was pitching around Reyes and if they were then he swung anyway. The problem with Beltran, Delgado AND Wright was they were all streaky hitters. When Wright was on he did indeed carry the team, when he was off… same with Delgado and Beltran, especially Delgado. Hard to identify during that time who the “real” star was and if you do your bias would get in the way for sure. Those 3 together made a good 3 because if one was slumping you had 2 to carry them.
I think both of us agree, I would hope, that during the 2 collapses Reyes not having the stamina to produce hurt us much more than those 3.
LOL no. Wright outproduced those guys every year they were teammates with the exception of Beltran in 2006. And if inconsistency makes one not a “star” then none of those guys were really stars either outside of Beltran in 2006.
Sorry that post was meant to be in response to Alex’s “real stars” comment, not yours trs
Reyes and the starting pitching did us in during ther 2007 collapse, in 2008 the bullpen and david wright were at fault imo.. the man was a no show during the last series, and of course, that famous At bat in that game against the cubs… sigh, what could’ve been.. but, the bullpen was just AWFUL!!!! 29 blown saves during the same, including 9 losses just in september… reyes had a bad month..
Jose Reyes last 9 games of 2008
.200 .256 .300 .556
David Wright last 9 games of 2008
.452 .561 .677 1.238
But that one AB, that one AB…. yeah I wish he had came through there too. I am willing to bet if he had it to do over again he would realize they were pitching around him and not swung at such terrible pitches. But to say that Wright cost us that year instead of Reyes is just pure bias at it’s finest.
Before you start saying fancy stats, 2 HR and 8 RBI in those 9 games as well. 6 multi-hit games and only 1 game that he did not get a hit, he also walked 8 times compared to 6 strikeouts.
Again you can say he choked if you want, at least that implied he was doing well and did not perform. What would you say about Reyes’ Septembers? Choked or did not have the ability?
Why are you comparing a leadoff hitter with wright?? seriously, is pathetic… again, without reyes and beltran in the lineup wright was a 300 10 72 hitter, placido polanco ish…. stop it, the man is a known choker, i don’t understand why you keep trying to bring up numbers, he’s a stat padder… stop it TRS86, we’ve been over this since that famous AT BAT in 2008… that’s all you needed to know about him in pressure situations… btw, there’s also that playoffs series in against st louis where he DISAPPEAR!!!!!!!!!!
LOL, why am I comparing a lead off hitter to Wright? Because you said that Jose carried Wright. Looks like if it was Jose’s job to carry right, he must have got tired doing it and FAILED every September. If we are saying Wright choked those two Septembers then Reyes is biggest choke job of all, more so than a couple of AB’s the entire month both times.
Realistically you can’t say that those couple of AB’s that Wright “choked” on were more of a reason for the collapse than Reyes’ .200?
Again, Wright is streaky and he failed in that one big AB… no doubt. However, Reyes not only failed in one AB but in 80%+ of them in September.
Reyes never carried Wright, and Wright never carried Reyes, and neither of them ever carried the Mets. Usually out of your position players it’s rare that the leadoff hitter carries the team unless his name is Rickey Henderson and the year was 1985. Typically your middle of the order hitters are the ones who carry a team. Beltran and Delgado showed the ability to that during different stretches throughout their Mets career and the teams they played for prior to the Mets. They were superstars. David Wright has never carried the Mets. With him it’s always been we need someone to protect him, or this excuse and that excuse. He’s now 29 and all he has proven is that he is a solid player and undoubtedly the best third baseman the Mets ever had, but he’s never been able to carry a team on his back like a Pujols or Guerrero or Strawberry. The reason so many of you dislike him is because your expectations for him was too high to begin with. He’s better than Knight, Ventura or any other third baseman we ever had and I’ll include Alfonzo in that group too. I can appreciate Wright because I haven’t had pie in the sky expectations for any Mets product since Lee Mazzilli failed to be the next “Say Hey Kid”.
I fail to agree that Wright never carried the Mets. He carried them at times during those years just as Delgado and Beltran did. They all needed each other to be productive and were able to step up when the other was slumping. You mean to tell me that in 2007 when he finished 4th in the MVP voting and had a .325 .416 .546 .963 line with 30 HR and 34 SB he never at any point during that season carried the Mets? The same year Delgado hit .258 .333 .448 .781
Maybe it’s just a perception thing, but I dont have a strong recollection of game winning hits or walk offs from Wright like I do of Strawberry, Beltran and Delgado. Do you recall any signature moments from the 2007 season that stand out for you down the stretch?
I guess it’s how you define “carrying a team”
To me a walk off hit doesn’t equate to carrying a team. That’s 1 game, 1 AB.
The biggest reason I get on Reyes and not on Wright is because people are unfair to Wright based on their own expectations. (And probably partly the media’s)
When this team needed somebody the most was September 2007 and September 2008. No other time during Wright’s career did a player have to do something (anything) to get the team to where they needed to be.
Nobody who favored Reyes being a long-term Met EVER (and I mean ever) brings up 2007 and 2008 as a knock against him or a reason to re-consider bringing him back. But for Wright his “choke” factor is essentially the #1 reason most people say he has to go.
2007
38/108 9 dubs 6 HR 20 RBI .352 avg, .432 OBP, .602 Slg
31/110 4 dubs 8 HR 27 RBI .282 avg, .328 OBP, .555 Slg
17/58 1 dub 4 HR 10 RBI .321 avg, .383 OBP, .566 Slg
24/59 4 dubs 2 HR 8RBI .407 avg, .493 OBP, .576 SLG
24/117 7 dubs 2 HR 8 RBI 5 SB, 4 CS .205 avg, .279 OBP, .333 SLG
That’s Wright, Beltran, Delgado, Shawn Green and then Reyes
33/97 5 dubs 6 HR 21 RBI .340 avg, .416 OBP, .577 Slg
32/93 8 dubs 6 HR 19 RBI .344 avg, .440 OBP, .645 Slg
33/97 6 dubs 8 HR 22 RBI .340 avg, .400 OBP, .649 SLG
26/107 4 dubs 3 HR 12 RBI 10 SB 3 CS .243 avg, .314 obp, .402 SLG
That’s Wright, Beltran, Delgado, and then Reyes
That’s all I need. That’s it. That’s why the talk of choking from people who claim Reyes is better is laughable to me. If you had to make two statements and 1 of them had to be true… you wouldn’t say “David Wright is why the team missed the playoffs in 07 and 08.” You’d say Jose Reyes was.
He folded under the biggest pressure moments of his career. The time when the team and the fan base needed him the most to perform at the level we were used to was September 07 and 08 and he failed. He folded like a lawn chair.
David Wright has had tough times since Citi Field, no denying it. But up until 2011, Reyes wasn’t exactly the shining star in Citi Field either.
My problem is that these that call Wright a choker basically make it impossible to like Wright and Reyes. I honestly think it was always a jealousy issue. Because their favorite player was Reyes and Wright was considered the face of the franchise instead of Reyes they had to attack Wright and make it appear Reyes was made of gold. Of course when faced with stats they bring up one AB and ignore countless AB’s from their hero. I loved both Wright and Reyes… I did enjoy Wright more because he was more available to the media and honestly during that stretch damn was he good. Now we are faced with losing both Reyes and Wright and it seems that some are so pissed about Reyes leaving that they are taking it out on Wright.
http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=2960768
its not 2007 or down the stretch but it was a nice moment.
Perception is swayed by bias and by media. Stats are not.
Wright 2007 with
RISP: .310 .431 .544 .976
Late and Close: .346 .447 .590 1.037
High Leverage: .320 .408 .602 1.010
As for game winning hits? Do they keep that stat anymore? Unfortunately it’s been 4 years ago.
The 2nd half of 2007 Wright hit .364 .465 .596 1.061 with a .902 OPS in his worst month during that stretch. His OPS in August and September were 1.172 and 1.034. Considering they were in a pennant race how is this not carrying your team?
Okay, you convinced me. Seven years ago David Wright carried the team. But seriously and all kidding aside there’s a strong perception with him valid or invalid, that he comes up short in big spots the last 3-4 years. I haven’t looked at the stats and I stress the word perception. Just on here and Cerrone’s alone half the people that comment seem to have that perception.
Joe that’s not 7 years ago… LOL you are saying the last 3-4 years and while I know that has been a while it is only 3 seasons removed.
I also think there are two things going on with Wright’s perception. Some of it is warranted. I think he put too much pressure on himself and the new ballpark did indeed get to him. However, I think many fans have always had an issue with Wright getting the attention and not Reyes. I also think that some have closers syndrome. They forget the 90% and only remember the 10%.
Again because of the entire clutch debate across all blogs the stat high leverage was designed to define what the hell clutch even was. Based on that Wright is a career .314 .385 .523 .908 hitter. I know, I know, on here stats can be bad but they are what they are. Does that mean he is clutch? Hell no. Does that mean he is unclutch? Nope. Does that mean that different people are going to have different perceptions? Yeah. It has nothing to do with but licking or lap dancing though… I do know that
LOL, meant to say five. It’s a Freudian slip.
How dare you throw stats in my face as if they are supposed to be some sort of empirical evidence of anything. Seriously though, I don’t disagree. I think a lot has to do with the choke and collapse in 07/08. While so many held Beltran wholly responsible for 2006 NLCS, I think Wright got the same type treatment for 07/08 and of course it was all unwarranted for either player.
It’s because people remember what they want to remember when they are angry.
It’s the same reason why Buckner was held with such distain, yet he had a very good career.
People remember 1 AB that Wright had but Reyes had 10 0-fers in September of 07 and 9 in September of 08, 4 of them in games lost decided by 2 or 1 run
I never really heard the Wright v. Reyes stuff til I came here and it always seems like Wright gets knocked for things Reyes did also and Reyes gets blind praise.
They both struggled big time in spots, but at the end of the day, Reyes let me down more in September 07 and 08 than Wright did. And there was no greater time that we as fans needed them both to come through, 1 of them did, 1 of them didn’t.
Yet the 1 who didn’t gets a candlelight vigil when he leaves from some, and the 1 who did is getting run out of town for being a choker.
The other thing is, the Mets missed the playoffs by 1 game in 2007 and 1 game in 2008. If others do their job in September, Game 162 doesn’t matter.
People focus on 1 AB for Wright but they never ever mention
9-20 2007
Marlins, Reyes strikes out with bases loaded in 9th down 4-3 with 1 out?
9-13 2008
Braves, Reyes strikes out to end game Mets lose 3-2
9-16 2008
Down 1-0 with 2 on, Reyes grounds into FC.
3 losses where Reyes had a chance to do something and failed.
Wright did enough in September, he did all he was asked to. Reyes failed, denying that is just blind love. Reyes was the failure yet, ask anybody who wants Reyes back they’d trade Reyes for Wright in a heartbeat and they’d use the phrase “because Wright’s a choker” as one of the reasons.
People remember, what they want to remember.
As I said to Alex earlier, I think if Wright had that one AB over again he would have learned from that mistake. He clearly pressed and swung at pitches he should not have.
TRS86, not only he struck out on a horrible pitch, my problem was that instead of man up, he try to look for an excuse and said: “he made a great 3-2 pitch”.. whaaaaaaaaaaaaatttt!!!????? was my initial reaction, but then, his legion of fans ran with it, he was being baby by the media and fans while beltran, reyes and delgado took all the heat.. ever since i lost respect for him and ever since i view him as a stat padder who CHOKES in big spots…
Took all the heat? Ask Wagner who took all the heat for the Mets. It was never Reyes or Delgado they were too busy getting the hell out of Dodge each night. If anything since then Wright has taken ALL of the heat.
Again, that was a horrible AB. He was if I remember correctly ahead in the count and then decided to put the game in his hands by swinging at pitches out of the zone. As for the final pitch, not a bad pitch but he had put himself in a bad position by swinging at the two awful pitches. Again, that was one AB and does not discount how the entire month he did everything he could. Baseball can never be judged by one AB the sample size is too small and hitters fail a tremendous amount more than they succeed.
Haha yeah what? When did Delgado or Reyes ever take all the heat? Delgado’s lousy 2007 season is largely ignored. And Reyes disappearing down the stretch in both 2007 and 2008 has also been ignored by many.
Beltran has taken a lot of unjust heat over the years, but that was more from idiots who harp on one AB in 2006 or idiots who think he was a wuss b/c he was hurt.
But Wright was the one who has taken the most unjust heat for the “collapses”
Right that’s the other aspect to this argument. When times were bad, Wright was the one answering questions and facing the media.
Agreed, I am puzzled by that as well…
The one constant during those 2007 and 2008 seasons was Wright. Wright came out slow in April of 2007 and then never looked back, never had a down month. Delgado that season was up and down like a nerds underwear on a flag pole. Even in his best month that year he did not even approach Wright’s 2nd half stats. Again, I know it’s not 2007 anymore and Wright is not the same player. That is not the point. To blame him for the collapses instead of some of these other guys and to say he never carried the team but those guys did is ridiculous.
Hey……….you leave my underwear out of this!
Yeah I never understood the logic in arguing Wright putting up those numbers didn’t “carry” a team, but other guys putting up worse numbers did. And even if one argues that some of the other guys had more red hot stretches where they were completely dominant (as might have been the case. especially with Delgado at times), if their overall numbers were worse it would also mean that there were plenty more periods where they were cold…and that they were “streaky” something has been a constant (and not unwarranted) criticism of Wright over the last few yrs.
Wow Alex it’s funny how you put Reyes in the same breath with Beltran and Delgado but you left Wright on the outside looking in,especially when you consider the fact that from 2005-2008 Wright was a much better player than Reyes.2011 was the only season in which Reyes was better than Wright and before you give me the choke line,I agree Wright comes up small in pressure spots but not nearly as small as Reyes did during the time those 4 played together.Case closed.But we all know why you give Reyes a pass for being front and center in the choke years right?
I don’t know or care when he will get traded. The good news is that he will eventually get traded. We haven’t won anything with this guy in the middle of the order and he makes Howard Johnson look like Brooks Robinson at third base.
Hey finally someone who wanted Jose AND David gone.
As far as the he hasn’t cleared 20 homeruns in two of the three last years
09 – abysmal home run numbers, but until taking one in the noggin his BA was very good
10 – 29 home runs, BA took a hit
11 – 14 homeruns he played an entire month with a fractured back, missed how many games? 50+ I believe………I think even his haters would have to agree that he’d probably get 6 homeruns in all those games he missed, so including ’11 and the variables about NOT hitting 20+ homeruns isn’t exactly a fair evaluation.
Same problem, different day – with the same posters. Sigh….
I think Wright has about as much chance of staying in NY as Reyes did.
It’s not a matter if ‘if’, it’s a matter of ‘when’ he goes.
I don’t believe he’ll be traded before the season starts. I think they’ll roll the dice again just like they did with Beltran and see what competing team will pony up the goods coming down to the trade wire on 31 July.
Yep, I agree. Same posters, same problems. I wish some of them would make an effort.
LOL.
Not some, but all……..
Lets Go mets
Blog “harassment”?! That sounds borderline insane!
Hey I read something today about how teams could not get compensation if Wright opts out after this year. Thus his trade value as I said will actually be more early next year than it ever will be this season. Unless he is willing to work out an extension with the acquiring team.
I read that too in a couple of tweets from Rubin. However I dont understand how he reached that conclusion. If we trade him next year, he’s a year older (30) and the receiving team still gets no compensation mid season. And we are assuming Wright stays healthy this year AND reverses his 3-year decline.
Wouldn’t they get to offer him arbitration after the 2013 season and get picks as a result?
Not mid season. And in offseason the team would have to make him a qualifying offer of at least $12 million but not less than 80% of what they were earning before. So in Wright’s case a one year deal for at least $12.8 million. Plus instead of two picks for a type A, no more typing and just one sandwich pick. This is from my understanding.
I believe Rubin meant trading him during the next offseason not mid season.
You have to wait until the option kicks in. Something about how they can’t just pick up the option and then trade him.
Its per the new CBA…if a player is an impending FA and is traded at the deadline his former team (the one that him a majority of the season) gets the compensation. ( I don’t know what happens if a player is traded earlier in the season)
. So Rubin was arguing that if the Mets trade Wright at the deadline this yr the receiving team will only be getting Wright for half a season and then they won’t be getting compensation. If Wright is traded next offseason (though its possible there may be something in his contract preventing that) then the receiving team will get getting Wright for a full year and get the comp picks if he were to leave as a FA after the 2013 season.
The NL “Evaluator” is an idiot. Sure, Wright hasn’t “cleared” 20 HR in 2 of the last 3 years. But, in 2009 he was beaned in the head w/ a 95 mph heater and suffered with concussion like symptoms then had the back fracture in ’11 causing him to miss significant time. What does this “expert” expect? A healthy Wright will produce similarly to 2010: .283, 36 2B, 29 HR, 103 RBI. How many teams would not want those kind of numbers from a 3B?
Lets run with that scenario of yours. Now pick any team, and give me a for instance on what they should offer us back in return for Wright.
Again I think he has a point but everything regarding Wright is based on 2012. It’s just like Bay. Do you REALLY believe Bay is as lost of a hitter as he seems? I mean he’s not Rey Ordonez talent wise, something is wrong.
Wright HAS the talent, we’ve seen it.
Let me ask this:
Prior to 2011, Reyes was regressing was he not? His 2009, 2010 campaigns were the worst of his career. Yet, everybody who wants him on the Mets today, wanted him signed to an extension prior to this year.
Then Reyes goes out there and wins a batting title, and who’s talking about 2009 and 2010 anymore? Certainly not Miami right? If Reyes was a free agent after 2010, we’d all think here’s a guy who will never be his 2008 self again.
It’s all about what have you done for me lately with a player like Wright. If he returns to the form we know he’s capable of, then I see no reason for teams like Colorado, ChiSox, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Arizona, and LAD to not show any interest.
STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR HIM… at the time of the bean on the head he had 7 hr’s and that was mid august i believe.. jesus christ, the love for this guy is what turn off many fans, he’s human just like everyone else… he is an ok 3rd baseman who went had beltran and company around produce, when he became the man, folded like a cheap suit
Yet how do you explain your love for Reyes?
I do not make excuses for him, the way you guys do??? is embarrassing to be honest, grown man slurping this guy as if he was some sort of demi god… we STILL talk about the bean he took in 2009.. stop it ok.. that year he was EXPOSED for what he is, a good player who benefited from having great players around him, that happens a lot in baseball you know, look a nick swicher..
I don’t make excuses for Wright, I have not mentioned the beaning or the injury. However, what excuses do you make for Reyes continually failing in September when it mattered? Perhaps it was his lack of discipline, his health, his conditioning, his choking.
So, Citi Field took away HRs that year for whatever reason.
at the time of the beaning, he was hitting .324 (I do know you love BA!) with a .414 OBP and .467 slugging, and 31 doubles (in 115 games).
So actually, outside of HRs he was having a huge offensive year at the time. and only 105Ks at the time.
HUGE OFFENSIVE YEAR???????????? are you serious??? the man had 7 hr’s and 55 rbi’s… how is that a huge offensive year when you’re supposed to be the best player on the team and by mid august you have 55 rbi’s????????????
If Wright only produced when he had Beltran and Delgado around him then how do you explain his first full season in 2005 when he had little protection.Beltran had a bad first season with the Mets,Reyes was average and Wright put up very good numbers despite not a lot of protection in the lineup.
This will be a big year for Wright if for nothing else to rebound from his worst season ever as a Met. I understand how over the last 3 years his strikeout totals have been very bad but in 2010 he hit 29 hr’s and drove in 100 plus rbi’s and in 2009 while he only hit 10 hr’s he had 72 rbi’s and hit .307/ba. so for me last year was by far his most underwhelming both offensively and defensively. At $15M he will most likely have to justify if he is indeed worth that cause if not his days as a Met may be numbered. For that matter even if he does justify it you an make the argument that his days as a Met may be numbered.
Agreed.
Peope STILL talk about this guys greates accomplishments… 5 years ago… LOL… man…
Only reason I am is because it was relevant to the discussion. Wright is not that player anymore and both of us need to hope he returns to that player for us to get what we want.
And some people still talk about ONE AB….3+ years ago….LOL…man
Touche.
clutch ,unclutch does it make a difference? he’s makin too much money for this team to keep him. he’s as good as gone.talent doesn’t matter any more for the mets only, how much you make.if santana shows anything he’s gone too.
I Don’t care what he did 3 or 5 years ago, i do remember september 11th this past year, stage is his, the cubs walked duda, LUCAS DUDA to face wright, and he failed. then walked PAGAN, ANGEL PAGAN FOR GOD’S SAKE to pitched to wright, and AGAIN, with everyone watching, the man FAILED MISERABLY again… don’t go 3 years ago to find his unclutchiness!!!!!!!!!!!
OK so we are establishing now that that one AB is now meaningless. Correct?
As for this year, was there even a clutch AB all year? If so what the heck is the definition of clutch? What did that game even mean?
Would that mean that Reyes was unclutch when he pulled himself out of the game?
that’s okay Alex,
People see what they want to see. It was more than one AB in 2008. He went into September of that year w/around 120 RBIs and had many opportunities to drive in runners in several big spots and failed miserably. But he had hits and RBI’s in many games we lost that Sept so his numbers will look good but very deceiving.
The day this over-rated numbers compiler is gone from the Mets is the day this team will start to improve. Then maybe we’ll start getting guys who have a set instead of big wusses like Wright who has set the tone for this team to being a bunch of pushovers.
Ike Davis has a great chance to become the face of this team once this false god is gone. Ike Davis has a set, takes no crap, and carries an air of arrogance about him in big spots. That’s a winner unlike the choke artist with the shiny smile and the shallow numbers.
This guy is the most frail power hitter this team has ever had.
The Quote: “It was more than one AB in 2008. He went into September of that year w/around 120 RBIs and had many opportunities to drive in runners in several big spots and failed miserably. But he had hits and RBI’s in many games we lost that Sept so his numbers will look good but very deceiving.”
The truth:
Sept 08 Games the Mets won:
Wright 14 hits, 48 AB .291 avg 11 RBI
Sept 08 Games the Mets lost:
Wright: 17 hits, 45 AB .377 avg 9 RBI
I guess you’re right about 1 thing Bayonne: “People see what they want to see”
Stop using those stat thingies they confuse me. My eyes are better.
Yeahlets not use facts to make arguments, lets use clouded memories. Because the human brain doesn’t block out any images we don’t want to remember right?
By the way for fun
Sept 08 Games the Mets won:
Wright 14 hits, 48 AB .291 avg 11 RBI
Reyes in Sept 08 Games won:
18 hits, 50 AB .360 avg, 10 RBI
Sept 08 Games the Mets lost:
Wright: 17 hits, 45 AB .377 avg 9 RBI
Reyes in Sept 08 games lost:
8 hits, 57 AB, .140 avg, 2 RBI
The Mets lost by an average of less than 3 runs a game in September 08. I wonder what would have happened if Reyes wasn’t half the hitter Wright was during those games?
My eyes ARE better – take a hike
the guy left a TON of runners on in important spots during that 08 collapse and should have wound up with 140 RBIs if he would’ve just come through in half of them.
Wright AND Reyes failing in 07 & 08 are the reasons why they never became the cornerstones of this team like we thought. They BOTH flopped when we needed them the most.
Fast forward to present and the whole off season was gone about the wrong way because Reyes choked yes but he was not as bad a choker as Wright and from simply a baseball point of view what he offers is MUCH harder to replace than what Wright offers and there should have been a concerted effort to keep him on this team and move Wright. Alderson got his priorities all messed up starting with his “speed is a foot note” comment.
Who knows how much that BUM even watched the Mets before he became the GM.
Holding onto Reyes and making him a part of the future and moving Wright as part of a package was the way to go to keep this team in contention. Alderson was wrong.
The quote
“the guy left a TON of runners on in important spots during that 08 collapse and should have wound up with 140 RBIs if he would’ve just come through in half of them.”
The truth. Here are Wright AB’s in Mets loses (aka collapse) during September of 08 where at least 1 runner was on base
Sept 5
1st inning: Walked with 1 out and runner on 2nd down 1-0
6th inning: 1 out, pop out with Murphy on 2nd down 1-0
Sept 7
3rd inning: 2 outs, flied out to RF with runners on 1st and 2nd (Reyes made 2nd out) down 2-0
8th inning: 2 outs, doubled to left with Nick Evans on 2nd down 6-0
Sept 13
3rd inning: 2 outs (Reyes made 2nd), grounds into FC with runner on 1st base game tied 0-0
Sept 14
3rd inning: HR with 1 on 1st to take 3-2 lead
7th inning: Single with 1 on and 1 out (Reyes made 1st out) up 4-2.
Sept 15
8th inning: GDP with bases loaded and 1 out down 7-2
Sept 16
6th inning: lined out to LF with 2 out and runners at 1st and 2nd down 1-0
Sept 21
2nd inning: HR with 1 runner on and 2 out to take 4-1 lead
Sept 22:
3rd inning: Ground out with 1 out and runner on 2nd up 2-1
7th inning: HR with 1 on and 2 out down 8-2
Sept 24:
3rd inning: Bases loaded walk with 2 out to tie game 1-1
5th inning: single to RF with 1 on and 2 out in tie game 5-5
7th inning: Fly out to LF with 2 out and 1 on down 6-5
9th inning: K with runner on 3rd and 0 out tie game 6-6
Sept 26
1st inning: single with runner on 1st and 1 out down 2-0
Sept 27
1st inning: Lines out with 2 out and runner on 1st 0-0 game
But again the truth has never been spoken so clearly from you when you said “People see what they want to see”
ahh so only one game he had 4 ABs, ok
But the rest of the games he had 2 or 1 AB
Sure.
And this coming from the slimy snake oil salesman that listed David Wrights fielder’s choices as “clutch”
I’m sure some readers here will remember the famous “clutch fielder’s choice” and other ridiculous AB stats this lying idiot had posted in the past
So in Mets Sept. games where they lost you think I’m hiding data because Wright only had 1 game where he came to bat with runners on base 4 times?
I assure you if I missed ABs it was a mistake but I think you just don’t like the parameters that YOU set because they proved you wrong
About Wright’s Sept. RBIs of 08
He had two 3 RBI games, one in a 13-10 win vs. WASH and the other in a loss. That’s 6 right there
He drove in NO RUNS during the last 3 games in the last important series vs. FLA. So that’s that.
Like I said, he may have had nice numbers but when you need him the MOST he FLOPS
REGARDLESS of the total numbers he puts up. Like I said, I know what I saw I DEFINITELY remember David Wright had a lot of opportunities to drive in important runs in September and he FAILED.
And 2 of thos 3 RBI in the 13-10 game you just poo poo’d was a game when the Mets were up 7-1 in the 4th and Washington brought it back to 7-7 in the 6th.
Then the Mets took an 11-7 lead into the 8th and were face with an 11-10 lead in the bottom of the 8th when David Wright hita 2 run HR with 1 out to make it 13-10 which would be the final score.
So I’d say those 2 RBI that you just tossed aside based on the final score were pretty important in a game where the Mets couldn’t even hold a 7-1 lead.
Bayonne, i didn’t even think he was playing during last series of the year… but hey, he had a bunch of RBI’s on meaningless games, that’s what matter… the .243 with runners in scoring postiion don’t matter…
I can seewhy you’d think that
Final 3 games of 2008
Wright 4 for 10 0 bb
Reyes 2 for 13 0 bb
Quick is .400 better than .153?
When a team misses the playoffs by one game there is no such thing as “meaningless games”.
However the Sept 2011 games you keep citing where Duda and Pagan were walked to get to Wright and Wright failed to get a hit…those games were about as meaningless as it gets.
GB, no game is meaningless, however as you get further along into the season and your fighting for the playoffs the games are obviously more important because if you lose, your out…..If you lose a game in May, you still have like 100 games left. So games in Sept obviously have more on the line.
And I think Alex’s point about walking Duda to get to Wright is that team thought that Duda(a rookie) chances of getting a big hit in that situation was greater than Wright’s – the importance of that game for the Mets is irrelevant to the point Alex was making there.
Conversely, Carlos Beltran in September of 2008:
19 RBIs in September (according to baseball ref)
15 of those RBIS were in WINS!
and while 2 of those RBIs were in a loss they were in that last game vs. FLA when we lost 4-2, he hit a HR that game if i remember so he DID do his part.
And of those 15 RBIS in WINS:
3 were in a game Mets won in 10 innings vs MIL 6-5!
2 were in a game Mets won vs Nats 10-8!
2 were in that 13-10 win the next day vs Nats
3 were in a 9-7 victory over the Nats on Sept. 17!!
1 was in a 7-6 win over the Cubs on Sept. 25!
and of course the last 2 were in that HEARTBREAKING loss vs. FLA on last day of season.
Carlos Delgado also had a STELLAR performance in Sept. 2008 for the Mets and did HIS best to keep the Mets in the hunt:
He had 22 RBis in Sept. of 08, 14 of which were in wins and 8 in losses but wait:
2 were in a 4-2 win vs. Mil
4 were in a 6-3 victory over Phil on Sept. 7!
3 were in a 10-8 win over Wash!
He drove in 1 in that 13-10 win over the Nats
2 were in a 9-7 win over the Nats!
Now check out 7 of those 8 RBIs he had in losses
3 were in a 7-6 loss to the Braves
4 were in a 9-6 loss to the Cubs!!!!
So Beltran and Delgado did their part to keep the Mets afloat during the September 2008 collapse. If only one more hitter did his part the Mets would have been in the post season.
Murphy is still standing on 3B too….in addition to all the other opportunities Wright had to drive in IMPORTANT runs.
Hmm, I would think that RBI in games that we lost would be just as important. I guess those don’t count. It would look like that he did his job in the games that we lost yet Reyes and others could not come through. I guess all 21 of his September RBI in 2008 were pointless.
Only pointless in the fact that he couldn’t do it alone…..
If I remember correctly that year we had a knack for putting up runs in the early innings, some runs in the middle 3 innings and hardly anything in the last 3 innings.
As we all remember we had a boatload of leads going into the last 3 innings that the BP just gave back, especially in the second half. Asking these same guys who were putting up hits, RBIs, scoring runs in those earlier innings to just keep on hitting and continually pick up that BP was just unrealistic. Most guys do not have 3 for 4 or 4 for 4 nights. Since they were doing much of the hitting in the earlier innings, to me Sep ’08 falls squarely on the BP.
If a couple of the hitters didn’t fall off completely in Sep we might have won the 3 games we needed. As it was, Wright was one of the only consistent hitters in that Sep.
I had a stress fracture in my T4 vertabrae in 2002 after a platform I was working on collapsed due to a piston failing… It healed relatively fast. (2 months) It took 9 years, but I developed arthritis, and eventually, herniation of the T4 and T5 discs in my back narrowing of the neuroframen canal, and generalized weakness in my left leg. I recall having 1 episode of ‘back spasm’ around 7 years later, which went away with 2 weeks rest and some muscle relaxers. After having a major abdominal surgery, is when I really had a huge problem. I’m no star athlete, and never trained like DW. Then again, he never worked an assembly line or humped 55 gallon drums. Lol. DW will be fine. When he gets older he may develop problems. I believe Wright will be dealt, before ST ’12 is over. I expressed that to Joe D. not long ago in another comment a few weeks back. Because thats what CRG will recommend. There is no room in the business model they will have to adhere to. After Freds statements lst year, DW not speaking to him since, its a fait accompli. If healthy, hes going to be dealt. His value will be what it will be. If healthy, the Mets CANNOT take a chance on him getting injured and diminishing further value. No DW is as good as gone.
You’re right. Aside from you and Joe, everyone on these threads are oblivious to the fact this is a business decision intended to stave off more financial losses. They debate about it as if it’s a baseball decision and draw their conclusions from a baseball sense.
David Wright is the guys Mets fan hope(d) would be their first position player Hall of Famer. But this Hall of Very Good player will hopefully have a good first half and then be traded for prospects in July.
My favorite stat is how he drove in 124 rbi’s in 2008 yet only hit 243 with runners in scoring position… that tells you how many times he drove in reyes with a weak grounded to 2b or a sac fly when reyes was in 3rd less than 2 outs early in games… some idiot here actually said that by him driving in reyes with a ground out was a CLUTCH AT BAT.. LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“My favorite stat is how he drove in 124 rbi’s in 2008 yet only hit 243 with runners in scoring position”
My favorite stat is how he drove in 124 runs (you don’t drive in rbi by the way) and yet hit .290 with runners on and drove in 109 runs.
Players that are on 1st base count also.
By the way, the only hitters to drive in more runners with runners on base in 2008 were Ryan Howard, Justin Morneau and Josh Hamilton.
So now to make him look good you count when somebody was on 1st base???? are you kidding me?!!?? the man was a chokejob machine all year and yet you keep posting up numbers, based on what!!!?!?
Based on what actually happened.
So Alex are you telling me that driving in a run from 1st base as opposed to from 2nd or 3rd is less valuable?
You’re NOT that stupid, if having a man on 1st base consider scoring position??? how many players can score from first on a double???? maybe someone like jose reyes can or a speedy guy, not many ok.. you need a HR, triple and a double + a fast runner who can score from first to drive in someone from first. the man had the most opp to drive in runs in 2008, yet he only hit 243, led the league in sac fly, so imagine that, he failed MISERABLE in big spots al year, but i thought it was an aberration to be honest, because before then the man was clutch, except in the playoffs against the cards when the stage got BIGGER and he shrunk, but at that time i didn’t even feel negative about him, i felt we were on the cusp to build a dynasty.. but…………….
Alex: Is it harder to drive in a runner from 1st base or from 3rd base?
Discounting his RBI when a runner was on 1st and not 2nd is cherry picking. The run counts the exact same.
you’re notsaying he’s drining in runs from first, you are counting his BA when THERE ARE runners on first. while i make the pount obvious you try to somehow make his 2008 stats better.. he did have a good season, but his season would’ve been a monstrous season had he hit in the clutch.. 243 with RISP and 124 rbi’s.. imagine ALL THE CHANCES he missed, he could’ve had 150 rbi’s had he hit 285. seriously, his legend as an CHOKE ARTIST is cemented already, don’t try to dispute that and go away… i am done in this thread, no matter what you say or i say, you have your opinion i have mind, he’s a choker, wanna know how he’s a choker? because there’s a debate about it.. if it wasn’t every hit he has in the clutch wouldn’t be celebrated..
“He’s a choker dangit a choker I tell you… nahananah I can’t hear you.” LOL.
Are you actually saying here that RISP is a measure of clutch, yet below you are saying that the only AB that matters is the last one? So what is clutch? It is whatever the hell you want it to be to prove your point. However, baseball minds tired of this debate went and defined clutch for you and called it high leverage. It you know takes into account all of those AB’s that you say are more important than others and actually takes away importance of those silly 1st inning RBI that don’t matter. Especially the ones he drove in from 1st base. They call that stat High Leverage. Perhaps you should do some reading on it. If it did not prove you wrong, I am sure you would like it and run around proclaiming it with Dickey from the mountain tops.
2008 High leverage: .350 .429 .528 .957
To be honest,since that infamous at bat against the Cubs following a leadoff triple by Murphy,Wright has struggled mightily in at bats with the game on the line.It has gotten worse since then but to say that a 3 run HR in the 3rd inning to put your team ahead is not clutch or not important is downright assinine.
If you go back to 2006 Wright had 4 walkoff hits and a walkoff sac fly.He also had 2 games,one in Milwaukee where he drove in the go ahead runs in the top of the 9th and the Mets held on both games for the win.
In both Septembers in 2007 and 2008 he got a lot of big hits that put the team ahead and then either the starter or a reliever gave up the lead.Yes he did have opportunities to tie or give them a lead later in those games after the leads were blown and failed but so did everybody else.You can’t discount those runs he drove in earlier in those games because he failed later in those games.Everybody else on the team failed in those spots which is why we went home.You just can’t blame one guy for failing when the entire offense would shut down after the 6th inning.
With that said is Wright a guy you have confidence in with the game up for grabs late in the game,down a run in the 8th or 9th inning with the tying or go ahead run in scoring position? No,not over the last 3 years.Neither was Reyes.In fact Reyes was much worse in those situations with at bats resembling Jeff Francouer.Getting himself out.
Blaming Wright for the collapse in 2008 is totally unfair.yes he did have quite a few at bats that could’ve bailed out the rotten bullpen but so could the rest of the team.2008 Beltran was the only one that came up big in those spots down the stretch.
Of course due to these crazy debates over who is clutch and who is not clutch a stat was developed to measure clutch. It takes in account “high pressure situations” for as we Bayonne would tell you a 2 out RBI with the score 11-2 is not necessarily clutch. Where as a runner on 1st base down one and 2 outs and you hit a double that makes it 2nd and 3rd would be clutch. Of course you know where this is leading… one of those darned stats that prove you wrong.
High leverage situations:
.350 .429 .528 .957
I’ve been preaching high leverage forever. But just like all the other facts that prove their guesses incorrect, they’ve yet to consider it.
Using RISP and RISP2/O to me flies in the face of what they are trying to prove. How many of those AB’s are actually even clutch to start with? I would say the majority of those AB’s are in fact not “clutch”.
I go even further and say that “clutch” is not even an inherent skill. It’s more an act of random variation that falls more in line with a player’s indiidual ability than it does some mystical force that changes a player’s talent level based on the situation they find themselves in up at bat. Give it a shot, TRS. Pick any random player. Pick lots of them, if you want to be sure. Pick people known as “clutch” and pick people not known as clutch. Then go to baseball reference and compare their career slash line and their career high leverage slash line. Let me know what you find out.
Oh I am one that used to lead this charge. I do think that there are high pressure situations and some players perform better in those. However, I do agree that good players are usually good players and over the course of time if given enough opportunities their stats start to even up. Especially average to below average players who are “clutch”. As a coach I know that there are some players that step up when the game is on the line but those players 99% of the time are good players to start with.
Exactly. Clutch situations exist, but clutch players are a figment of people’s imagination. They’re just good players who find themselves in clutch situations.
Alex — Still persisting with the clutch player garbage, aren’t you? Gives you something to have a position on, even if you can’t define it. What nonsense you spew, my friend.
Des, believe wha you will, i won’t debate you on it!!
“My favorite stat is how he drove in 124 rbi’s in 2008″.
I knew you liked Wright. Tut tut, don’t deny it.
Nothing you said after “2008″ matters.
LOL, mnj, nope…
jessep is on a roll.
Using actual data to support an argument…pretty novel for these parts
I’d like to take full credit but some folks make it so easy when they say things without caring if they are true or not!
yeah, partial data – only listing 1 or 2 ABs per game
Look, Wright is a major CHOKE ARTIST not only offensively but defensively as well AND is one of the WORST offenders of jogging to 1B on infield groundballs and if you can’t tell that from years of watching the Mets than you can’t be help.
All the “data” in the world is not gonna prove otherwise. Most intelligent people know that Wright is a major FLOP when it comes to pressure.
I don’t think most intelligent people would call a career .300 hitter with 5 All Star selections and 3 top 10 MVP finishes in 8 years a “flop”.
“AND is one of the WORST offenders of jogging to 1B on infield groundballs and if you can’t tell that from years of watching the Mets than you can’t be help.”
but you wanted to keep Reyes and bring in Zambrano.
uh-huh
I selected specific at bats because you Bayonne gave me the parameters.
You said
“Like I said, I know what I saw I DEFINITELY remember David Wright had a lot of opportunities to drive in important runs in September and he FAILED”
“the guy left a TON of runners on in important spots during that 08 collapse and should have wound up with 140 RB”
Therefore I showed you every time Wright came to bat with at least ONE runner ON BASE in September 2008 games the Mets LOST
If you don’t like the parameters then maybe you need to change your opinion since well… it’s wrong
Jessep has cited plenty of data across a bunch of different parameters.
Its the clowns like you that harp on a couple of ABs
I like GB a lot.
Bayonne face it this afternoon you got served. You set the parameters of your critique of Wright and I blew them away with actual facts. Just walk away.
Nobody was served,
You’re a proven liar on this site, and you’ve also been proved to have selective memory.
You’re simply not a person to be trusted and I set NO parameters. Here is the snake oil slimy eel’s post about Wright from awhile ago
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/09/david-wright-and-the-c.html
Here he cites FIELDER’S CHOICES and leadoff walks as clutch appearances for Wright. This sickening creep has been proven to only provide select and choice data before
And like I said you can throw all your stupid date you want at me it’s not gonna change the fact that most smart people know that David Wright is one of the worst clutch hitters to every play on this team – him AND Reyes BOTH came up short in Sept. of 07 and 08 and that’s why they BOTH are not the cornerstones we had hoped for because they BOTH had the Mets destiny in their hands and they BOTH blew up
And like I said I still would have kept Jose and moved David in a package cuz Jose is not as bad as wright when it comes to clutch and provides a lot more than Wright. Wright can be more easily replaced than Jose.
wow I hope my response which provided only facts in a discussion and not insults like the post I was replying to are allowed to pass through moderation.
So because you can’t hold your own in the present debate you’re going to bring up a discussion from months ago after you were the one who told me Mike Jacobs was a good get because of his ability to Sac Fly?
Yes I think a leadoff walk in the 11th inning of a tie game is a clutch at bat.
But anyway lets put this to rest.
“And like I said you can throw all your stupid date” I wish you didn’t typo there because had you said “data” that would have been a great quote
since you’re refusing to look at FACTS because of a personal vendetta
You said: “Like I said, I know what I saw I DEFINITELY remember David Wright had a lot of opportunities to drive in important runs in September and he FAILED”
“the guy left a TON of runners on in important spots during that 08 collapse and should have wound up with 140 RB”
I provided the FACTS
And I will admit I missed two (as I double checked now)
Sept 15 1st inning: K with runner on 2nd and 1 out 0-0 game
Sept 28 1st inning: Line out with 2 out and runner on first 0-0
You go through the at bats I provided which is every at bat Wright had in a September loss with at least one runner on base
http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id/6035/year/2008/david-wright
And show me where I’m a liar. If you can’t then you can either admit you were wrong, or just stop replying because you’re not discussing the topic you’re discussing your personal views of me because every point you tried to make today got rejected by… FACTS
Here’s a fact for you,
Wright FOLDS in big spots – it is his reputation whether YOU or any other fan favorite of his think. Most professionals know it, you here it all the time. Sure he’s a good player but he’s a SOFT player, I don’t like the way he carries himself when he plays. He would rather apologize to a player than knock him on his butt with a hard slide. He’s not a winning player AT ALL – NOT AT ALL. He’s a number’s compiler and like any major leaguer sure he’ll have his moments but the guy is NOT a winner AND one of the guiltiest Mets I’ve ever seen of lack of hustle. He changed a bit with Collins but with manuel the guy practically walked to 1B on groundballs and half the time barely even made it to the bag on a routine groundball to SS.
You can put up any silly number you want and it does not deter the FACT that the guy is a major CHOKE ARTIST and a SOFT PLAYER
Got ya so you don’t want to use facts, just opinion.
Facts bore you.
Have a great night Bayonne.
..and i posted facts here for you dopes to read as well – scroll around
But jesshlt the spinner will ignore that.
Nonetheless – the guy is a SOFT PLAYER and a MAJOR CHOKE ARTIST
That is a fact. And any SMART person who has been watching the Mets long before either Jose or David came around will not CARE WHO the player is – if the player is a CHOKE ARTIST than he’s a CHOKE ARTIST.
Clutch players come in all kinds of talent levels, starts, p/t players, and the same can be said of players who can’t come through
Wright is a player who CAN’T COME THROUGH and him and Jose BOTH sealed their legacy in 08 & 07 because if Jose just simply hit and Wright was able to get hits in important spots in games the Mets would have 2 more post season appearances added to their resumes
I do not care what a few regular FANS think.
“and Wright was able to get hits in important spots in games the Mets would have 2 more post season appearances added to their resumes”
And again I showed you his September at bats in games they lost and you thought it was a mistake because it wasn’t enough AB. Proving what you remember isn’t true.
You remember what you want because you hate David Wright, and ignore the actual at bats because they ruin your argument.
You act like I am your worst enemy. But “Facts” are clearly your nemesis.
I do not care what a few miserable FANS think. I care about the truth.
Have a great night, maybe you can stop replying with hate filled comments.
..as usual the slimy eel takes out of context what i said as he forgets to include that i said BOTH Wright and Reyes
But you take that from where it comes and the source from where it comes stinks to high hell
I’ll give you points for persistence, Jessup.
I feel like I’ve stepped back in time several years reading all those pointless arguments on metsblog about ‘clutch’, before it got so out of control it was shut down for a week.
Good times…..
Pointless arguments about clutch?
And what the HELL do you know about it? Tell me about the times you’ve had to experience coming to the plate when the game is on your shoulders
Once you can explain your experiences with that than I’ll listen to what you have to say
Yes srt tell us about that Babe Ruth Little League that gives you enough experience to compare yourself to David Wright playing in a pennant race. Please do.
That mindset of yours that if you’ve never played the game you can’t possibly understand it, is the #1 most irrelevant argument a fan could throw out there. You think all the scouts, talent evaluators, beat writers, etc. involved with the game all played baseball at some point in their life? I highly doubt it. But yet, they’re able to grasp the game with all it’s nuances from top to bottom.
Makes it very hard to take any other point seriously, even if it is relevant.
Texas Rangers have been to a World Series 2 years in a row. But under the argument Bayonne presents to you srt, he is more qualified to discuss baseball than Jon Daniels
Dave Dombrowski never played either to my knowledge.
And BTW…I played 1st base and pitched in a women’s softball league for 8 years. But I suppose that doesn’t count as ‘experience’ in your book. Because, you know, it’s not a ‘man’s’ league and it wasn’t played with a hardball.
Jeeze Bayonne, join the rest of us in the 21st century already…..
The best way to learn about the game is to play it. To actually go out on a field and experience baseball for yourself(And it doesn’t have to be at a high level), is the best way to learn.
Now, that doesn’t mean you can talk about baseball if you never played, but it helps a lot to actually experience it for yourself.
I’m sure both Daniels and Dombrowski had some experiences playing baseball, maybe not professionally though.
yeah but Donal, I bet they were on their junior high travel little league team right? At least I hope otherwise they are clearly not equipped to understand the game… (sarcasm)
There’s no mention of Daniels playing baseball in high school or beyond. He’s just Ivy League nerd with a business degree who got a job in the office and worked his way up.
Same for Dombrowski. Although he transferred out of the Ivy League school.
Hell, Frank Cashen was an accountant for a brewery before he started working in baseball.
From the CORE to all y’all, HE MADE A GOOD 3-2 PITCH…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk5acXx93kQ
So how many David Wright bobble-heads do you have again 1,2,3…?
Cmon bro, you ain’t foolin me. Your Wright fan numero uno.
He’s got a whole shrine for Wright. Bobble heads, candles, pictures, cut out newspaper clippings. And a voodoo doll of Molly Beers.
Mnj, i had a brand new wright jersey that was given to me, donate that crap!! LMAO!!!
btw, Licey contra las aguilas hoy… whoever wins go to the final…. LICEY!!!!!!
I remember bro. I just teasing you. Yo I was watching last night’s Gigantes vs Aguilas game and saw the Cuban Cespedes lift one out to LF for a hr. I don’t know if there is video of it but I mentioned that he had his hr stance down. He didnt start to round da bases watching his shot with pride until the ball cleared the wall.
Thx for reminding me about tonight’s game gonna look for it now. You but the announcers do a ton of advertising during the game. They have one for a batter that has 2 strikes and is about to strikeout. LOL
Alex, here is the Cespedas HR I told you about. Check out his stance after he hits it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_xDVWfTkuc
BTW caught the end of tonight’s game Licey lost don’t know if you was rooting for them but i’m confused they play the Leones now to see who represents D.R. in the Carribbean Series right?
MNJ, i am heartbroken, LICEY lost last night, and you are correct my friend, they will play tomorrow to see who wins the DWLCS. then is the caribean world series… i saw cespede playing too, he’s a good hitter.. and LOL at the announcer, that is how they earn money for the league, advertizing like that.. is like listening to a radio station where they do the ads you know.. plus they send a lot of shout outs as well…
Come on….we can do this all day. What’s your point? This looks pretty clutch to me.
Just a month before the video you posted:
http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=3273299&c_id=mlb
http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=3146023
Makes me kind of mad looking at these. What we could have done with that core……
The one I posted epitomizes what I’ve been saying here today. It wasn’t about what hitter was clutch or unclutch or who came through down the stretch. It was all about that awful BP. Santana leaves with the lead, the BP blows the lead. Mr. ‘Unclutch’ hits a walk off HR to at least win the ballgame, even if Santana didn’t get that win.
Man, that BP was one of the worst I can remember……
From the BORE to us all. This is getting fairly lame.
that is why you post about it right????? don’t let it bother you man, i know tx can be tough on people. just hang in there ok..
He also said I fouled off a few pitches I felt I should’ve hit so it’s not like he didn’t take responsibility for failing. Again IMO Wright is the last guy I want to see in those spots but to blame him for not making the playoffs is unfair.Everybody on the team failed in those spots in both collapses.The bullpen was downright awful too but the following season the Phillies bullpen was just as bad as the 08 Mets bullpen but their big bats overcame it.The Mets big bats didn’t.
Another blowout on a thread, and of course jessep is at the bottom of it.
Plus now he has cheerleaders rooting him on.
I’ll give you points for persistence, Bayonne.
Nope this one is on Alex and I but if you would like to be obsessed with Jessup go ahead. Looks to me like you just showed up to comment on him so you must enjoy his contributions.
trs: I hope you appreciated my efforts today. I tried to stick to the topics and respond and not instigate just for you haha
I gotta say I had a nice little day. Always fun to dominate people with facts.
Man all this stuff again and obviously I got suckered in. I just can’t help get involved in a stat vs my biased eye debate. I wonder, if his eyes went bad if he would base his arguments on sound of bat? “I don’t care what those stats say, I heard an out!”.
Stats can be very misleading, and you can spin and twist them into whatever you want to prove a point.
True in some cases but overwhelming facts are not as misleading as a biased eye.
I haven’t seen any overwhelming stats here.
.350 .429 .528 .957 in high leverage situations is pretty overwhelming to me.
High leverage is a flawed stat(I’ll go over it later because I’m going to be out for a little bit)……And what year are those numbers from??
2008 the year in discussion. And while High Leverage is not 100% it is a much better definition of clutch than RISP or RISP2/O.
There’s a lot of problems with it. 1st of all it doesn’t show the difference between a game in May or a game late in the season where the Mets are fighting for their playoff lives. For all we know, most of those good numbers came from early on in the season, and not from when the Mets were fighting for their playoffs lives. So we have that problem.
Also every high leverage situation isn’t the same, but the stat you are using treats them all the same. There are some “high leverage” situations that are more curcial to the outcome of the game than other high leverage situations, right? Of course there are, but the stat you are using won’t show it. How do we know in the extremely crucial parts of the game, Wright didn’t play as good? You can’t because your lumping situations that aren’t all the same all together
And there can be situations where a a medium leverage situation really isn’t a medium leverage situation, like if your facing Halladay with a RISP in close game in the 3rd inning, that could be an extremely curcial part of the game because if you don’t get the run in there, Halladay is so good that you may never get another chance to score off him again. But the leverage stats will treat that situation the same as if an ordinary pitching was on the mound.
So to finish this up, leverage stats don’t tell you when in the season the player got the hits(or didn’t), they lump situations that aren’t always them same as the same thing, and how they rate the situations as low, medium, and high, isn’t always right.
“Also every high leverage situation isn’t the same”
Care to elaborate?
Sure. What I meant was that there are some big situations that are biggeer than others. Like if your down by one in the 9th with 2 outs, that’s a bigger spot than down by 1 in the 7th. Becuase if you fail in the 7th, you still would have 2 innings left to play, if you fail in the 9th, the game is over – Both are big spots, but one is more curical than the other.
Yes, that is true. But they are weighted that way. WPA and LI show that your 9th inning scenario is more important, and high leverage weights it as such.
http://www.insidethebook.com/li.shtml
Here is how Tango represents the Leverage Index. High Leverage situations are in red.
Look at how much more red is in the 9th inning than the 7th. So, yes, the LI does in fact take the inning into account.
Don’t worry about WPA and LI,
Just watch the game and you’ll be able to know what situations are more important than others as it develops.
But instead he leans to a “WPA” and “LI’
unbelievable.
Now they are saying “but look at ‘TANGOs’ and “High Leverage Indexes’
never mind what happens during the game and you see the guy flop whenever you need him the most
This really borders on Science Fiction and these people are completely clueless. It’s stupid – it’s like “never mind what I see – this is what the ‘alleged’ data says.
Amazing that this type of mind set actually exists now.
Don’t worry about how the dictionary spells the word, just sound it out you are an English teacher so you have to be right. LOL, what scout does not use stats? Hell could you imagine a scout sitting behind home plate. Hey how fast was that pitch? Eh I do not use a radar gun but based on my eyes it was 126.
How ridiculous is it that you can’t understand that while you can’t rely completely on stats they are much better and more reliable than your eyes. Your eyes are completely and totally biased.
it’s like “never mind what I see – this is what the ‘alleged’ data says.”
LMFAO!!!!!!! Bayonne, my exact point, bunch of retards…
we are not talking about radar guns.
You are right, alex
See what I mean, Joe D? That’s what extends this nonsense
Alex, again I defer to your assertion. Because someone continues to prove you wrong with facts you resort to name calling. I could do that of course myself but why would it? What would it prove at all? Would it give any more credence to my stand? Would it make me look cool and popular? Would it help me “lick the B****” of another poster? Would it help me form a group of imaginary super heroes? Nope. It would just make me irrelevant.
Again, your perception is meaningless. You have no special insight. You relive your high school days by ordering some neighborhood kids around and call it coaching. You have yet to show one ounce of actual insight.
Your memory is worthless. Mike Francessa told you what to think about Wright, so you’re just going to repeat it, facts be damned.
you just talk and talk and talk about how smart you are, but have yet to prove it.Whenever someone ahs something that contradicts the things yo uare incapable of questioning, you just make personal attacks and threats.
And of course, you’re “I played the game” line goes out the window when someone who has played the game disagrees with you. Even if they played at a higher level than you could hope for.
Donal, what you linked is a little different than was TRS was talking about. Tango had four situations low, medium, high, and very high, and what I think TRS was using had only three(low medium and high).
By adding the fourth situation it makes one of the problems I had with it a little better, but you still have the problems of when in the season it happend, and if how they rated the situations as low, medium, high, and very high are even accurate.
Vinny, your argument relies on you having insight into the player’s perception. You assume it is an important spot, so you think he feels more pressure in it. Unless you’re reading minds of people on TV, you can’t make that assumption. In fact, I’ve often heard it said by the actual professionals that one of the most important things they learned was to treat every situation in a vacuum.
also, a game in May has the same value as a game in September. You’d think people who root for a team that missed the playoffs by 1 game back to back years would have figured that out by now.
If your fighting for your playoff lives in sept, the game are more crucial to the season than a game in May( I think I already explained this in another post) because if you lose in Sept, your season could potentially be over, now if you lose in May, you still have like 100 games left to play.
Vinny go read the “Tango”
That will explain everything for you, lol
Vinny, your entire premise relies on your skills as a mind reader.
Are you a mind reader? Or are you assuming that the players al lhave the same exact mindset as you?
You don’t have to be a mind reader to understand my point.
If your fighting for the playoffs in Sept, those games are more curcial than games early on in the season, why? It’s simple because if you lose in Sept, your season could potentially be over, if you lose early on, you still have a hundered or so games left to play – So there’s much more on the line in Sept, and because your whole season is on the line, there will obviously be more pressure.
It doesn’t take a mind reader to understand that – it’s very simple.
You can’t speak for someone else’s mind set. And your entire premise requires you do that.
To succeed at that level, you have to put everything out of your mind except for the here and now. For each at bat, the score doesn’t matter, the standings don’t matter, none of that matters. all that matters is what is in front of you.
Or, if you want to play mind reader, look at it this way: you don’t think in 2008, when the Mets got off to that slow start (that is why Randolph got fire, remember) that each loss in May wasn’t weighing on anyone?
As I said of course using any stat by itself has flaws. However, wouldn’t you say it is a much better judge of the mythical “clutch” than RISP or RISP2/O?
Also, if you factor that stat in with Close and Late? If a player had a good stats in High Leverage situations and good stats in Close and Late, wouldn’t that at least imply that player had a clutch season?
But Bayonne’s memory is gospel?
Because you choose not to
But perception and memory are perfect?
And here’s the thing about stats: if they are flawed or are being misrepresented, you should be able to point out exactly how. Just brushing them off as “skewed” doesn’t work.
Yes, and I have done that a number of times in the past.
Once. you did it once. And you didn’t close the book on it. I was very proud of you, but you don’t just stop there.
and the go to response for you and certain others (who put it in less civilized terms) is often you don’t like a certain stat because it flies in the face of your preconceived notion.
TRS, again, if a player goes 3-5 (.600 BA )with a double and 2 rbi and goes 1-3 (.333 BA w RISP) with RISP but FAILED miserable at the end of the game to win it for the club how would you considered that day??
Now let me explain, the game was out of hand, that player then had a hit, another hit then a double to drive in 2 runs when the game was 9-3 to make it 9-5, the team does the fullcomeback, that players has a chance to end the game with a sac fly or a hit.. then he strikes out, what would YOUR EYES tell you?? the numbers look really good, but in reality, my opinion will be he CHOKED, what will be yours???
Did his 2 RBI make the game 2-2 tie? Did they make the team down 7-5? Without his previous 2 RBI how important is that 1 AB that you weigh differently than previous?
I have an awesome idea. MLB is always looking for ways to quicken the pace of play. Perhaps they should just skip to the 9th inning and call it a day?
Shhhhhh…. don’t tell anyone this but almost all baseball players fail 7/10 times. Thus I would not base any players ability on one AB.
that answer tells me all i need to know…
That small sample sizes skew numbers?
So a player goes 6/7 and drives in 5 runs in a game and the score is 5-6 and he fails in the last AB to drive in the winning runs he failed? Uh… if it was not for him they would not have had a chance to fail. What a terrible way to look at things.
sorry but it doesn’t work that way. Unfair? Yes, but that’s how life is. Gotta come through when it matters the most or else the rest means nothing. That’s clutch.
meant to say yes that’s how it works, lol. It’s unfair but if you don’t do it when it matters the most then the rest means NOTHING.
So, he doesn’t live up to the flawed (by your own admission) perception of the idiot masses, then he is a choke artist, despite of what he actually accomplished?
And if he is responsible for 5 runs for his team, don’t you see why it is stupid to complain that he didn’t get the 6th when the rest of the team didn’t score any?
Jessep — My congratulations for dealing with class and facts on this thread. The factual have-nots won’t let go of their preconceptions. Some of them even think that calling other people vile names wins the day. But it only proves the lack of substance in their point of view.
Thing is I am not seeking to change their opinion. I am just stating my opinion based on facts as they continue to state theirs based on bias. In other words as Joe says balancing the playing field.
You’re not balancing the playing field, you’re making excuses as to why Wright is not clutch. And that’s a loser mentality right there.
You made excuses you did not balance any playing field. If he drives in 5 runs with 2 HRs and a double and makes the game close – like 9-8 but then comes up with the bases loaded and a chance to win it and he strikes out then he failed when it matters the most.
I don’t want guys who help make the score close, I want guys who are able to close the deal when the time is right.
OK then you would love the stat High Leverage right? Oh yeah, you don’t like stats!!! My bad. But if you did you really should check out High Leverage. However, don’t look at Wright’s stats first because then you won’t like the stat and think it does not do was well as your untrained eye.
High leverage is misleading so dont waste my time with that. I believe Vinny B already explained that to you
LOL, OK you tell me why it’s misleading. Lets see if you even understand the stat.
Also, lets try this. List a few players that you think are “clutch” and lets compare their High Leverage stats.
Read Vinny B’s explanation above. I agree with it and it says everything you need to know about high leverage.
And he already explained it to you so i don’t understand why you are now asking me to repeat it – you already know.
Vinny’s explaination is incomplete. He’s already been asked to elborate. Maybe if you agree so much, you can elaborate for him.
No, Vinny B’s explanation is quite clear and succinct. I agree with it and that’s that.
It’s incomplete and factually wrong. That part about Hallday is completely incorrect.
Besides the second part being incomplete.
What was incorrect about it?
That 3rd inning spot could very well be weighted the most important in the game for the opposition.
Yes it could be rated that way. However my point is that situation might not get rated as high leverage, even though it’s an extremely crucial point of the game because it wouldn’t take into account who’s on the mound. It wouldn’t make a difference between if Halladay or Oliver Perez on the mound.
Depending on who’s pitching can completley change the complextion of the game.
Oh and you don’t know me to make the statement that my eye is untrained. So between that stupid comment, your high leverage excuse – it tells me all I need to know about where you’re coming from
FYI my eye is not untrained. Far from it actually. This conversation is over because you don’t have enough knowledge on the subject. You just proved that.
Prove your eye is trained. Give us your background that makes your eye more trained than the average eye. How about this, take out the eye and have it analyzed by baseball experts then come back with that proof and then we will treat your word as gold. Otherwise you like all of us are just another guy posting his opinions on a Mets blog.
Okay, I’ll take out my eye and test it.
This conversation is now over.
No, it isn’t.
OK, now it is. I just ended it.
Please do… or you could do as I said earlier. Give us your actual qualifications with proof that makes your trained eye better than any other random blogger. Otherwise as I said you are just some average joe with no more credence to his opinions than the guy who posted for the first time on Metsblog.
Also, I have yet to make one excuse for Wright. All I am doing is completely and totally proving your argument to be bias and without merit.
Question to many, would you rather have:
A)a guy that goes 3-5, 2 hits and a double, 2 rbi’s, but failed when it matter the most, or
B) a guy that goes 1-4 double. 2 GW rbi’s??
the numbers might look pretty on exhibit A, but i rather have exhibit B.. ohh, and btw, both exhibit A and B put up good numbers thorughout the year, but exhibit B is known as clutch, exhibit A, well.. CHOKE ARTIST
I’ll go A, because B is irrelevent without him.
Both or at least a combination of the two, otherwise due to player B’s previous failures in the game without player A then player B’s AB’s would also be meaningless.
Also, it sounds as you like Bayonne would love the stat High Leverage. You know, the one that weights those AB’s that you are talking about much heavier than a random AB in the 2nd inning that has no purpose.
Also, I believe that you were using RISP as a way to measure clutch earlier. Yet now in your argument above you are saying that his previous AB’s with RISP do not matter? Can you please define which one it is. It is hard to debate someone who does not know their position.
Dayyum, is this thread still going?
I must say that my newly retooled MMO Fair or Foul feature has been a big hit this week.
Hmmm, so the president of the fan club had a trade idea involving sending Wright packing and has said over and over that he is ok with the decision if they decide to move on?
Face it Alex, you can’t win this debate because you have nothing to stand on but your perception. Not one single stat that is actually a measure of “clutch” can actually be used to show that in 2008 he wasn’t clutch.
“Not one single stat that is actually a measure of “clutch” can actually be used to show that in 2008 he wasn’t clutch.”
That’s why you have to watch the game and the numbers can mislead. We are now going around in circles. And this is coming from the guy that doesn’t know who the hell I am but yet he says my eye is untrained.
This is now a waste of time.
Prove it isn’t. That is all I am asking.
Also to your point on stats, that is fine if you believe that only your biased eye can judge. However, once you ever use a stat to justify your opinion couldn’t I just turn around and say “That’s not what my eyes tell me”? Does it work for just stats you don’t like or for all stats. If you tell me a player has 181 RBI can I come back and say, nope my eyes only saw 150?
“Watch the games” Because you’re the only one who does that. Because on a fansite for the New York Mets, you don’t have a friggin army of people who watch the games.
Not one single stat that is actually a measure of “clutch” can actually be used to show that in 2008 he wasn’t clutch.
BA with RISP for all year: .243
BA with men on 2nd and 3rd: 167
BA with bases loaded: 235
2 out with RISP: 245
Stats after the 7th inning: 31-127 (.244) 4 hr 16 RBI
You’re right..
But Alex, you said that the only AB’s that count as clutch are the ones at the end. Thus RISP and RISP2/O would fail to be a measurement of clutch at all. Sorry. Also your other stat also does not define your own definition of clutch as not all AB’s after the 7th inning would be clutch either. As you mentioned earlier it would only be the ones with the game on the line. Thus the closest stat today that measures what you define as clutch would be High Leverage. Now if you want to change your definition then I can understand but then you would have to be held to that one as well. Be careful because of course you will be proven wrong with that one as well.
Why can mets fans criticize beltran for striking out in game 7 , yet if one brings up that famous game when wright sruck out on a horrible pitch, then made up a bogus excuse “he made a good 3-2 pitch” on a pitch 6 feet off the plate then one hates the man or don’t know baseball?? is not like that was the only time he’s choked under pressure.. he’s been doing it ever since, most recently that famous game september 11th against the cubs, where the Cubs manager rather faced DWright than LUCAS DUDA and ANGEL PAGAN… and both times he FAILED!!!! MISERABLE!!! but hey, it was all forgotten because he wore the NYPD hat while in the dugout…
You are basing this argument on the wrong people Alex. For if you remember I defended Beltran every time some idiot said he wasn’t clutch as well.
Also, that AB based on your own definition would not be a measurement of clutch. Sorry.
People who criticize Beltran for that at bat are no less foolish then you are for your Wright bashing.
I only bash him because you worshipped this guy as if he’s the greatest met of all time.. as i he wasn’t unclutch.. well, 5 years later, i was right..
No one has said Wright is the greatest Met of all time. Again, you know you are so painfully wrong, you need to lie to save yourself.
The people who worship Wright as the greatest player of all time are no less foolish than you are for bashing him.
Joe D,
When they start asking us to look at “Tango’s” and then ask me to remove my eye for analysis and then the parrot comes in with those one sentence remarks that’s what extends the conversations.
Then more often than now they turn it into a debate about semantics then we have to start explaining ourselves all over again in plain english. That’s why I give Vinny B a lot of credit, he has more patience in that department than I do.
Super eye, I have already explained all you have to do is back up your comment that your eye is trained and you have the ability to see what others do not. Prove your eye is more of a judge than the average joe.
I have a lot of experience with the game in many aspects over many years and am not going to get into it now just because you are fairly new around here. Either you believe it or you don’t.
That’s it. Over.
Prove it, Mr. Average Joe.
You claim to have played HS ball and now coach it. That is not nearly as deep as you think it is.
Now, it is over.
Dang all this time I never realized that I am now able to judge all NBA players without looking at stats because I am a successful High School basketball coach. Cool. Time for me to go impose my never ending eyes of knowledge of an NBA board.
Say what you will about Wright but in Sept 2008 the middle of the order (Beltran, Delgado) as a whole while out performing Wright were not head and shoulder above Wright that September. The reality is the team failed.
David Wright in 25 Games in September 2008 hit:
.340/BA .416/OBP .577/SLG 6/HR 21/RBI 97/AB
baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=pbSks
Carlos Delgado in 25 Games in September 2008 hit:
.340/BA .400/OBP .649/SLG 8/HR 22/RBI 97/AB
baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=LGj9M
Carlos Beltran in 25 Games in September 2008 hit:
.344/BA .440/OBP .645/SLG 6/HR 19/RBI 93/AB
baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=kO8JP
David Wright in September 2008 had
12/rbi in wins 9 rbi in losses
baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=g7ejD
Carlos Delgado in September 2008 had
15/rbi in wins 7 rbi in losses
baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=CK1N6
Carlos Beltran in September 2008 had
15/rbi in wins 4 rbi in losses
baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=IDcF5
David Wright in September 2008 failed to drive in an rbi in
13 Games – The Mets were 6-7 in those games
David Wright in September 2008 drove in an rbi in
12 Games – The Mets were 7-5 in those games
baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=g7ejD
Carlos Delgado in September 2008 failed to drive in an rbi in
15 Games – The Mets were 5-10 in those games
Carlos Delgado in September 2008 drove in an rbi in
10 Games – The Mets were 8-2 in those games
baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=CK1N6
Carlos Beltran in September 2008 failed to drive in an rbi in
13 Games – The Mets were 4-9 in those games
Carlos Beltran in September 2008 drove in an rbi in
12 Games – The Mets were 9-3 in those games
baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=IDcF5
David Wright in September 2008 had 0 at bats from the 7th inning on that either tied or gave the Mets a lead in a game.
Carlos Delgado in September 2008 had just 1 at bat from the 7th inning on that either tied or gave the Mets a lead in a game. – 9/1/2008 vs Brewers: 2 run hr in 8th giving Mets 3-2 lead. baseball-reference.com/boxes/MIL/MIL200809010.shtml
Carlos Beltran in September 2008 had just 1 at bat from the 7th inning on that either tied or gave the Mets a lead in a game. – 9/25/2008 vs Cubs: rbi single in the 9th giving the Mets a 7-6 win. baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYN/NYN200809250.shtml
The numbers those 3 guys put up in September alone were pretty impressive. They had to be to pick up the pen that 2nd half. They put up a good effort but in the end it was not enough to overcome the team’s shortfalls as a whole.
My eyes, My eyes, they’re burning they’re burning.
LOL, Nice job NJ.
LOL, don’t get me wrong I know Wright choked in many at bats that September and I am not against trading him. In fact I proposed the idea of trading him for Hanley Ramirez this past December with the idea that the team would be better with a infield of Davis at 1st Tejada at 2nd Ramirez at SS and Murphy at 3rd. Which brought a hell yea from Alex
I though don’t put the blame on Wright for 2008 the way some put the blame on Beltran for 2006. He had a great year and if there was ever a list on who is most to blame for 2008 he would be way way way down on that list.
David Wright in September 2008 had 0 at bats from the 7th inning on that either tied or gave the Mets a lead in a game”
MNJ, YOU’RE LYING.. SEPT 24TH AGAINST THE CUBS, WRIGHT HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO WIN THE GAME WITH MURPHY AT 3RD BASE WITH NO OUTS.. HE THEN PROCEED TO STRUCK OUT, THE CUBS THEN WALK DELGADO AND BELTRAN TO FACE CHURCH.
That is what I said.
David Wright had “0″ at bats from the 7th inning on that either tied or gave the Mets a lead in a game”
I don’t get it, why refer to it as “0″ at bat?? you mean 0 GW sac fly or GW hit or GW hr?
Your looking at it too hard I think Alex.
Wright did not have an at bat where he tied a game or gave the mets a lead from the 7th inning on that September. I am making your case by showing that he never tied or gave the mets a lead from the 7th on that September. I am also saying that Beltran & Delgado only did it once each that September.
I think where you might be getting confused is you think I am saying he had 0 opportunities to drive in a tying or winning run from the 7th on. I am not saying he didn’t have opportunities I am saying what he did not do which again was he did not have an at bat where he tied or gave the mets a lead from the 7th on that September.
http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=280924121
Following Daniel Murphy’s leadoff triple in the ninth off Bob Howry (7-4), Wright could have won it. He took three straight balls, fouled off a pitch, then missed the next two. Delgado and Carlos Beltran were intentionally walked to bring up Ryan Church, who grounded meekly to Ronny Cedeno. The second baseman, playing in, threw home for the forceout. Ramon Castro struck out on three pitches.
and the weak argument of the team loss as a “Whole” can be said about every loss and every win in any athletic event. That’s just a cop out for people who look for a cop out in life
Beltran and Delgado did their part in keeping the Mets afloat in 2008, it’s unfortunate for Wright that he did not do his part when they needed him the most regardless of his numbers but that’s the way it goes. Life is unfair.
If you can’t deliver when it’s your time to shine than it’s on YOU. This ‘as a whole’ is a cop out way to look at things and basically falls under the same exact argument that is defending Wright. That’s all that’s happening there in their own quiet way – they are trying to defend Wright.
I haven’t laughed this hard in a good long while….reading through this thread.
When does ST start already?
Agreed SRT. I am looking forward to some baseball as well.