30
2012
First Bernie, Then Beltran
An article by 
With Carlos Beltran leaving the Mets via trade and then signing with the Cardinals, there appears to be a lot of nostalgia going around about his career.
In fact, it seems lately that Carlos Beltran and “Hall of Fame,” have been seen together in several discussions with Mets fans.
Personally, I think the Hall of Fame is getting a bit too watered down. I love that a guy like Ron Santo got elected (though I find it embarrassing he got voted in after he passed away), but I question what he did from the day he retired to 2011 that suddenly made him an All-Time Great?
Bert Blyleven is another guy I have serious doubts on. It’s almost becoming a Heisman type candidacy where you need to drum up a campaign to get elected, even though your campaign should be the time you spend on the field.
I am not saying if a player doesn’t get elected in their 1st try that they shouldn’t get another chance, I just think there’s too much at stake for Cooperstown year after year to NOT have anybody get elected.
What would a summer in Cooperstown be like if nobody made the cut? It’d set that town back a ton.
I think of the Hall of Fame and I think of All-Time Greats. Not good players, not even better than good. All-Time Greats. I want them to be Elite during the prime of their career and I want them to have enough longevity to accomplish significant career milestones.
For me, Carlos Beltran is not a Hall of Famer today, and he shouldn’t be 5 years from now unless he compiles some insane seasons as he heads toward retirement.
When I think of Beltran as a CF in this era, I compare him to Bernie Williams. Take a look at Carlos v. Bernie through their 1st 14 years in the Major Leagues.
Carlos Beltran: 1,184 Runs, 1,917 Hits, 390 Doubles, 73 Triples, 302 HR, 1,146 RBI, 293 SB, 831 BB, 1,213 K, .283 AVG, .361 OBP, .496 SLG, OPS+ 121, Top 10 MVP 2x, Silver Slugger 2x, Gold Glove 3x, All-Star 6x, Rookie of the Year Winner, 2 Post-seasons, 0 World Series appearances.
Now Bernie Williams: 1,248 Runs, 2,097 Hits, 401 Doubles, 54 Triples, 263 HR, 1,132 RBI, 144 SB, 983 BB, 1,084 K, .301 AVG, .388 OBP, .488 SLG, OPS+ 129, Top 10 MVP 2x, 1x Silver Slugger, 4x Gold Glove, 5x All-Star, 10 Post-seasons, 4 World Series championships.
For me, Bernie Williams isn’t a Hall of Famer because I try to look at the entire picture but if you’re asking me who was a better CF over their 1st 14 seasons, I’m sorry but I believe Bernie Williams was.
I know there are plenty of Mets fans out there that wouldn’t put Bernie in the HOF, but if those same fans are the ones claiming Beltran deserves a chance as of now then I am sorry but you can’t have one without the other.
Beltran needs over 400 hits to even catch Williams, and Williams only played for 16 years.
For me, if Beltran was to get to the Hall of Fame it’d be because he had an outstanding ending to his career with another 4+ years.
If you don’t consider Bernie a Hall of Famer, then you cannot consider Beltran one, it’s as simple as that.
About the Author: Michael J. Branda
I work for a non-profit organization, working closely with all of our fundraisers in hope of one day finding a cure. My time with MMO began in July of 2009 when I wrote a Fan Post defending Omar Minaya (before it was cool to do that.) I grew up a Mets fan with the mid 1980's teams. My favorite Met of all-time is (and was) Wally Backman. When it comes to sabermetrics versus old school thinking, I like to think I meet in the middle. I believe thinking of new ways to get answers is helpful, especially when the same way has not produced results. However, I think over-thinking certain situations can get you into trouble. I'm excited for the new regime, because I believe they have pieces in place to focus on several aspects of the Mets organization. I've waited this long for a World Series, waiting a few more years for another chance isn't going to kill me.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Nationals | 26 | 17 | .605 | - |
| Braves | 26 | 18 | .591 | 0.5 |
| Marlins | 24 | 19 | .558 | 2.0 |
| Mets | 23 | 20 | .535 | 3.0 |
| Phillies | 21 | 23 | .477 | 5.5 |
Last updated: 05/23/2012
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Write Your Own Mets Post
“If you don’t consider Bernie a Hall of Famer, then you cannot consider Beltran one” According to you but that doesn’t make it so.
Look I don’t know why the bending backward to say in your opinion Beltran is not a Hall Of Famer but the odds are that he most likely will not be but depending how his knee holds out this season and how much longer he plays with the choice of being a DH down the road His numbers are simply not that far removed from Hall of Fame eligibility.
Was Beltran considered one of the best centerfielders of his time? The answer would have to be yes. Is it enough to get him in? No not that alone but is he within striking distance of consideration? Definitely.
The rest just remains to be seen.
No you do NOT look at the entire picture…
You and your OBP centric tunnelvision always goes looking to say guy with more Hits are BETTER despite the fact the quality of hits is far superior from one to the other!
20 More triples and 40 More HRs and you think those are equivilent players merely because one hit more singles than the other!
Really Jessup I gave you a sample of what gets into the Hall!
Ashburn got in and so too might Williams and Beltran if anyone points to Ashburn as the benchmark!
Your really getting rediculous and I wondered where you went once I mentioned an ACTUAL HOFer and his numbers compared to Beltran and now I know you raced to write a new piece to make the point you were losiong miserably in the other thread!
This goes right up there with the Sandy had a good day crap the day Reyes was gone and Torres (.240) replaced a .270 Hitter in CF!
You did the same with trying to compare Reyes with Rizzuto. They are 2 entirely different eras and in my opinion it is unfair to compare them to each other side by side.
You find a recent CF inducted to the Hall to compare to then…
He keeps picking players who are NOT in the hall and have INFERIOR power numbers to make his case.
Point is Williams hasn’t made the hall but might!
Ashburn already has and if you compare stats Beltran would deserve to go on those alone!
At least I am comparing Beltran to what GETS IN as opposed to guys Jessup doesn’t feel will!
As for Era it really doesn’t matter!
If someone hits 700 HRs they are getting into the hall regardless of what Ere Ruth did it!
If you think comparing Ashburn to Beltran and as you did earlier Rizzuto to Reyes really has no difference you can do that but I still disagree with that logic.
The focus should be when Beltran’s career is over is was he among the best to play his position during his time.
And even under those criteria Beltran has a VERY good case if he retired right now!
Will that hold true by the time he does retire?
Who knows but the truth of the matter is so far he has done more than enough to earn consideration as there is hardly any CF that has played the last 15 years with as much Power and fielding as Beltran has.
and comparing him to guys who have more singles and ignoring Beltran’s Power numbers over those players is just another SMEAR campaign by jessup to make Sandy letting him go look better!
And we all know that move is only good if BA is right about Wheeler and he actually becomes a #1 or #2 pitcher…if Not Sandy screwed up!
You was doing good until you went offtrack with your smear campaign remarks. Try to keep the focus on the topic.
Well that WAS he point of starting a whole new Post on the subject wasn’t it?
If not care to hazard a guess as to why Jessup thought it needed to take it away from the original after I mentioned Ashburn?
Look I get it he is your friend and you want to help him….
Best way to do that is to get him to stop running to write an article everytime he loses a battle in someone else’s article comment section!
Everything he has written since reyes signed has been to make everything Sandy has dumped as BAD and Everything he has acquired as GREAT MOVE!
Put it this way it’s one of the main reasons I have stayed away for the most part recently.
Reasonable discussion is right out the door and I hate to say it as I’m disappointed but you have helped him at every turn to let him wave his Pom Poms!
Anytime someone calls him out on his Agenda you can be sure that MNJ will come to his rescue and try and get him out of trouble…
That’s all he ever does Metsie.
I’m referring to jessep not Jersey.
LOL I knew who you wer referring to!
Really I haven’t posted an article in over a month because I just got so tired of dealing with Sandy’s Buttonmen!
They think he’s doing a great job (When pressed statistically it moves to great job “CONSIDERING”….
Truth is they know full well this team is WORSE than last year and not a single move except MAYBE the trade of beltran does anything for the future fortunes of this franchise!
They have all been nothing more than Salary dumps so that IF Sandy gets lucky and some more of Omar’s picks manage to make us competitive he might have a buck or two to spend on the replacements we will need thanks to Sandy letting Reyes, Beltran, K-Rod, Wright and Pagan go!
Anytime someone calls him out on his Agenda you can be sure that MNJ will come to his rescue and try and get him out of trouble
Sort of like VinnyB always coming to Bayonnes rescue.
No Vinny brings his facts and only in cases where the facts support what Bayonne is saying!
Too many see bayonne’s name and just take the opposite point regardless of what he said!
Vinny only jumps in when those same folks start making rediculous statements while they are busy battering their favorite target!
Vinny only talks baseball and he’s never defended anyone in these stupid personal fights. Why dont you stop lying Joe Diaz.
I didn’t say Vinny doesn’t talk baseball. Actually Vinny is the only one on your side of the fence that’s a gentleman and can have a civil debate.
Vinny does come to Bayonne’s defense quite often and that’s the truth. I wasn’t knocking Vinny.Maybe if Bayonne had a clue as to what he’s talking about,Vinny wouldn’t have to bail him out when he’s getting his ass handed to him.
Do any of you guys ever comprehend what you read. If anyone lies here it’s you Maniac.
Yeah you love Vinny thats why you tried to put him with Bayonne because you think he is such a great poster and your comment about him coming to bayones defense is all about how much you agree with Bayonne once Vinny offers up those facts!
Get real dude I know it’s hard but some of us are well over 40 years old and see right through the 15-20 year old High School crap!
Joe Diaz is wrong again,
Vinny B, like me and a lot of other people (me, Maniac, metsie, alex, OmarFan, 224, Lifelong, Hodges14, KMaxx, etc) comes from a traditional baseball point of view and I’m sure he, like the rest of us to varying degrees feel strongly about the culture change going on here and are not happy about it at all. I tend to shoot from the hip and have no patience to engage these people while Vinny B is the complete opposite and will engage a donal regardless of how snarky, arrogant, & sarcastic he is. I won’t, I’ll tell him to shove it – I’m confident in my inherent knowledge and don’t have time for word games, semantics and looking up stats all the time (just sometimes).
So Dopey Joe Diaz is wrong again when he says Vinny B is bailing me out because i don’t know what i’m talking about. Believe me if I didn’t know what i was talking about Vinny B wouldn’t following up to this guy and you know what? He probably is aghast himself at fights I have with people here to tell you the truth. Me Vinny, Maniac, Metsie, alex, etc have all argued with one another in the past about what’s best for the Mets but it was in the frame of mind we all grew up in, if anything this saber nonsense has brought a lot of traditional people together who otherwise may not have a lot to say to each other.
Dopey Joe is also wrong in calling Maniac a liar when Maniac’s observation was 100% correct. Maniac is not a liar to begin with – like a lot of us we may be wrong in assessments, in choosing a player we like, but he’s been here for years and is CERTAINLY no liar.
Dopey Joe had some nerve saying that but he won’t get called out by the same people who call me and the others out. Count on it.
One day Metsie,perhaps you too will learn how to comprehend what you read. Perhaps you’ll even refrain from spinning everything people say to fit what you want to believe.
Sometimes I agree with Vinny and sometimes I don’t,whether he’s coming to Bayonne’s defense or not. There have been maybe two times I have agreed wiith Bayonne.You live in a world many galaxies away from earth.
Some of us are over 40. Yes that’s true at least for me.I’m 46 wil be 47 later this year. How old are you? 25? You debate like a 15 year old. It’s you who needs to get real.
“One day Metsie,perhaps you too will learn how to comprehend what you read”
This from the guy who turned a Question into a stateent of fact!
Really? Comprehension doesn’t seem to be my problem!
READING seems to be yours!
You read what you want and anything that doesn’t juve with jessup’s Fantasy is wrong!
See you in October when we are last in the division and you and jessup will be faced with explaioning WHY we lost more games than last year DESPITE all the GREAT MOVES you thought Sandy made!
Hey that would give you the pleasure of saying Nannie nannnie booo booo…
LOL, this place is something else.
However, to your point I think that there is a clear divide. I think most of us will agree that in terms of opening day star power this team is not as good as last year’s team. What will ultimately happen? That depends on health and lots of ifs. Keep in mind the team did score more runs in the 2nd half with Beltran gone and Reyes out for a significant portion.
Ultimately even those of us who are understanding of many of Sandy’s moves see that they are not aimed at competing this year but towards improving the teams’ financial and organizational depth situations. Thus allowing them to compete at a much higher level in the future.
Nice talking baseball….
It’s not enough that you can’t read,spin everything but you also have dyslexia.I have predicted a 74-88 record and last place on numerous occasions,you must’ve saw 88-74 with your dyslexia.But I love all Sandy’s moves. It’s hilarous how childish you are when you get made a fool of. Lose a debate as you always do and everybody gets painted a Sandy lover,moneyball/sabergoon. First Reyes is a HOFer,now Beltran. Lets put Felix Millan in too.Pass the bong please.
“I have predicted a 74-88 record and last place on numerous occasions”
So you agree Sandy has made this team worse!
Why don’t you say that?
I have no idea where your coming from with this? Who’s agenda Jessep’s? Is it too hard to ask to talk about the topic without dragging into a personal thing of accusations of a smearing?
The problem is I am trying to stay away from all the personal B.S. that always kills a baseball discussion. We were talking baseball up until you decided to make it personal and I don’t want to go there.
You want to go there? Knock yourself out I just rather not.
Come to his rescue? I mean really go back and read through the months and months of comments and let me know how often this happens.
I am always here to talk baseball if you’d rather not I am not telling you not to. Again I just rather not.
Playing dumb only goes so far…
You know full well that it is Jessup with the Agenda, all it took was reading my post!
Metsie, I am just trying to talk baseball, really that’s all I’m trying to do. You have your opinions and I have mine. We debate them and in the end come what may we either agree or agree to disagree. This is it in a nutshell.
People here everyday say things where they insult one another that I totally disagree with but I try to just stay away from it and try to focus on the baseball aspect.
You want to go after Jessep on a personal level? None of my business that’s between you and him. All you need to know is that when I am talking to you, you can be sure that it will almost always be about baseball.
Well MNJ then talk baseball and stop getting involved in how we reproach Jessup and defend him when he calls us insane and we decide to call him out for what he really is!
If you want to stop this then I suggest you take Jessup to task everytime he makes a point that people dispute and then runs to his YOUR INSANE defense!
If not then I would just as soon have you stay out of chiding me unless there is a fair playing field and he’s getting it as well!
If you want me to stop calling you insane than you really need to stop claiming Carlos Beltran is better than Ken Griffey Jr…. that’d be a good start.
Free advice.
Metsie what is wrong with you? I was talking baseball. We were talking about how comparing Beltran to players in different eras in my opinion was unfair and that he should be compared players in his time.
You decided to then take it another route and all i said was to try to focus on the topic.
Why are you making this bugger than what it is I do not know. Did you even read my 1st post here? I disagreed with Jessep’s conclusion.
I am not telling you what not to do I simply asked not to be part of it.
I should add that I am saying not to be a part of anything that goes into the area of going after someone on a personal scale.
And if you really want someone to take anything you say seriously you need to stop creaming your pants and running to write an article about how great a fart sandy made this morning while drinking his coffee!
You are the one who thinks purging Reyes, Beltran and K-Rod and getting only Wheeler in return was a GREAT PLAN!
And you call US insane!
Please quote where I said Beltran was better than Griffey liar!
And if you can’t then I would like to see you post a picture of you in your cheerleader dress as my apology payment!
No MNJ you are not to be a part of it…Stop chastising me when I go after jessup unless you plan on going after him and his prattling insanity defense as well, thats all I’m asking!
I am not chastising when you go after Jessep I am engaging you on a specific point and engaging you on that. That you can’t see the difference is beyond me. If you can’t handle a simple request to talk baseball when it involves me that is your right to do so. I’ll respect that and leave you alone.
Compare to Edmonds.
Of course Edmonds and we can’t forget Junior Griffey and Andruw Jones. Beltran is maybe the 4th best CF in the last 20 years, but Bernie has a case and like it or not, Mike Cameron is not far behind.
While we’re at it, Lofton is in the discussion, too. Griffey, Jones and Edmonds are 1-3 without question, then Bernie, Lofton and Beltran are 4-6 in any order and Cameron follows at a close 7th.
Lofton will probably fall short though.
Lofton will fall short, which is basically my point. Aside from power, Lofton was better than Beltran in all other aspects of the game. Same with Edmonds over Beltran in all aspects aside from speed. These guys were all around better players than Beltran and don’t deserve Hall nods, so why should Beltran? Bernie doesn’t belong, either, and he’s neck and neck with Beltran.
I didn’t give Junior as an example because he was on another level. Jones is a good one,I totally forgot about him Defensively he was as good as I’ve seen. I see Lofton as a Raines type that may one day have a shot.
Again with Beltran?? Geesh.
Beltran has always been an overrated player. Besides being a visitor to the Hall Of Fame he shouldn’t be anywhere near it. Bernie was the much better player, he is much more worthy of the Hall than Beltran.
How was he overrated? There was nothing he couldn’t do. He was a much better defensive CF than Bernie,Beltran is 10X the baserunner Bernie was,and Bernie threw like Bernice,no arm at all. The only thing Bernie did better was hit for average.
Pay no attention to Pomes. He’s always hated Beltran with no rhyme or reason, and he won’t answer you, anyway.
They both have a career OPS of 858. I don’t know how you can say Bernie was much better.
Carlos was the much much better defender and baserunner.
Why is only the hitting stats out there? How bout Fielding, ain’t that counts in gettin in the HOF? Beltran is a great CF, who had more errors in there career? Fielding % n Assess? Beltran 1 of the best there is…………
Good Point SH!
See my mention of Ozzie Smith in the previous thread jessup away from, wrote a new article to hide the original Shawn Green comparisons he tried to make!
When that got shot down he tried Beltre…
When that didn’t work he made an entirely new post using Williams…
Beltran is the best hitting and best fielding CF over the last 15 years!
But Sandy dumped him and GOD FORBID Jessup should have to face the reality that Sandy dumped a HOFer for a maybe pitcher from BA’s most prized (this minute) list!
“Beltran is the best hitting and best fielding CF over the last 15 years!”
“Hi my name is Ken Griffey Jr… and you are?”
You got so excited when StayzHigh mentioned errors and field %
So Bernie had more Hits, Doubles, AVG, OBP, OPS+, More Gold Gloves, less errors in CF, and better field % in CF and because Beltran had more triples and 39 more HR you deem Beltran is a better hitter AND fielder.
Pair that with fact he was an .850 OPS hitter in the playoffs
If you’d tell me you’d take Beltran’s 14 year career over Bernie’s career I think you’re absolutely insane.
I will agree with you on 1 aspect. If Bernie gets in, I think Beltran will also. But Bernie had a better career than Beltran. 39 HR and 3B don’t make up for everything else.
Per Year
Griffey 126H 23D 1.7T 28HRs
We already established beltran’s Numbers but as a refresher…
Beltran 127H 26D 5T 20HRs
Yes Griffey hit more HRs per year. FINALLY you found someone who wasn’t all about singles hitter. Guess what Griffey AND Beltran will go to the hall…Griffey first because he will retire first!
Keep going though My short Skirted (Sighted) Pom Pom waver!
Your BOUND to find a player out of the 10000 you haven’t tried yet (we are up to player 5 now and you still haven’t won a comparison yet!) before you might get something worth debating!
Griffery comes the closest so far and if he doesn’t make the hall then you might have a point!
Griffey played a lot more than just the last 15 years! And will be judged against who he played with for the most part while beltran will keep on stacking up numbers!
But at least you found a guy who was equal and in fact better in power…Too bad you had to go to a guy from BEFORE Beltran came up to find him!
I think you had better hget back with your mates and work on the P{yramid thing you pom pom boys do!
By the way did you take into account the Park Factors when you decided Griffey was better based solely on Power?
Where has Beltran spent the last 6 years? Citizen Bank?
So just so we’re clear here Metsie. You are saying Beltran was better than Griffey?
Do you say Griffey is better than Beltran?
Based on what?
The fact he played at Safeco and a 1.03 HR Park Factor for all his life compared to Beltran who has played the last few years in NY where it’s a Pitcher’s park and David Wright can’t deal with fences?
By the way you complained today that people were comparing Beltran to somebody with more years played.
So compare Beltran 14 years to Griffey 14 years, apples to apples.
108 Runs, 178 Hits, 26 doubles, 4 triples, 41 HR, 119 RBI and 10 Gold Gloves
You think Beltran is better than Griffey? That’s hilarious.
I think I just did that now didn’t I…
Did your short little cheeleader skirt fly up into your face or did a frill from your POM POM get caught in your eye?
And being called INSANE by you is tanatamount to you saying your right I can’t beat you with bullshit so I give up!
Everyone who doesn’t buy your Bull is called Insane!
You do know that if you going around saying everyone is insane the only one who gets committed is you?
But you keep right on with those EXCELLENT debating skills Puffy!
Which is the name of a Cheerleader I used to date BTW…
She was as dumb as a cart too but looked good in a short skirt!
Quick send off an email to MNJ taking me to task for playing your game back at you!
You think I need anybody’s help in a debate about who the better baseball player was Griffey Jr or Beltran?
I have heard it all now… I can’t believe I’m actually reading that you think Beltran is better than Griffey Jr.
Maybe DiMaggio too? Why stop there… Babe Ruth? Psh… can’t even tie Beltran’s shoes
No you just need help in general…anyone who does not fall for yor fantasy is insane to you!
Please quote where I said Beltran was BETTER what I said was Comparable!
Both are Hall Worthy because both put up the same numbers with the exception of Griffey hitting more HRs because he played in a HR hitting friendly park that Beltran nave played in!
But keep on whining and trying to make everyone who argues with you into some insane madman.
It only makes you look like the Crazy one!
Nice attempt and putting a lie in my mouth though.
Too bad most of us are much too smart to buy into a word you say!
Nitey Nite Puffy, Don’t forget to press your Pleats in the Morning!
I loved Beltran,one of my all time favorite Mets but c’mon man,better than Griffey Jr?. Not in the same stratosphere. The only hall Beltran is getting into is the Mets hall of fame,and this coming from a huge Beltran fan. Jim Edmonds had better numbers than Beltran and I don’t think he’s getting in either. Bernie and Beltran have the same OPS for their careers 858.Edmonds is 903.Griffey 907.
Care to quote where I said that?
I said both were comparable with the exception of Griffey having played in a HR hitters park (Seattle 1.037) Compared to Beltran who in Citi (.735)
But you cheerleaders buy into whatever you want…
after all Torres (.240) is better than Pagan (.270) with the Cheerleaders!
Metsie January 30, 2012 at 8:56 pm .
Reply to Jessep
Do you say Griffey is better than Beltran?
Based on what?
I think it’s obvious by that question you to think Beltran was at least as good as Junior if not better.
I don’t know what to tell you if you even think they’re comparible. Junior for the better part of a decade was the best player in the AL and maybe all of MLB.
Whatever the You Chearleaders comment means I have no idea and I also don’t know what Pagan and Torres have to do with this thread. I’m not cheerleading. I disagreed with Jessep when he said Bernie was better than Beltran.I just totally agree with him that Junior was way betterthan Beltran. BTW OPS+ takes into account ballpark factor.
Bernie was a big part of helping the Yankees win 4 World Series! Beltran never did anything for the team, he never cared about the team or the fans as he proved in his classless comments last week. Beltrtan was great at padding his own stats yes but Bernie has the rings and was a better player IMO than Carlos.
Counting a players rings does not make them the better player, that just means they were on better teams whereas 25 men got the job done, you think Beltran should have done it all on his own.
If you think he did nothing for the team, well then you weren’t paying attention.
You can’t count it against him or anybody though. It’s not their fault they were on great teams. Several players join great teams and can’t handle the pressure.
I think the postseason record ADDS to Bernie’s candidacy not takes away
Didn’t say counting it against, just should be the final push.
Does that mean Scott Brosius is better than David Wright. Brosius has the rings.
Were you in the dugout or in the clubhouse to say he didn’t care about his team. He only played with a broken face after the most horrific collision you’ll ever see on a baseball field because the Mets were fighting for the wildcard in 05,Yeah I guess you could say he didn’t care.He wouldn’t have mentored the young guys coming up if he didn’t care.
And while we’re at it,he should’ve told the fans that acted like he killed their first born over a damn stikeout to go $#@% themselves.
All the Mets fans that couldn’t wait for the team to get rid of Beltran, you got your wish. The player you loathed for seven years is gone and out of your hair. So why are you still getting on him for? Isn’t it enough for you that he’s gone and Andres Torres is the new centerfielder of the present and future? I don’t understand why these haters are still complaining after they already got what they wanted? Your seven years of anguish is now over. Carlos Beltran is gone. Move on already.
When I come to this site now I rarely look at the articles. I just open a thread with a high comment count and look for people tearing each other up. It’s a real shame in one regard, and high comedy in the other.
Not that I have historically ever commented here I’ve read articles on here for years. Now I have a a lot more empathy when Cerrone kicked many of us off his site 3 years ago. We didn’t attack each other like pit-bulls, but our conversations were so consistent from thread to thread that he saw it drawing away from the real content that most were coming to the site for. It also probably pushed people away from wanting to contribute because it could be intimidating. So we were banned for 2-3 years.
Many of you posting here are animals. In no way do I want to discourage you, it really has become a Maury Povich obsession for me as of late, but I just don’t understand how you can go through life being so mean to each other on all places a Mets blog. I could probably understand more if I was in politics. Do any of you digest what you write and ever consider that you are a complete a_H0le?
Wow, holy crap. I loved Beltran but this is ridiculous. Everything has to be about damn Sandy and the sunshiners and doomsdayers.
Look there is no way in heck that Beltran is CURRENTLY a HOF. What he does from this point forward will determine his fate. No I do not think Bernie Williams is either.
Take the Mets blinders off for a minute. Forget the ridiculous comparison to a first ballot HOF in Griffey Jr. Compare him to Jim Edmonds. Do any of us associate him with the HOF?
Carlos Beltran: 1,184 Runs, 1,917 Hits, 390 Doubles, 73 Triples, 302 HR, 1,146 RBI, 293 SB, 831 BB, 1,213 K, .283 AVG, .361 OBP, .496 SLG, OPS+ 121, Top 10 MVP 2x, Silver Slugger 2x, Gold Glove 3x, All-Star 6x, Rookie of the Year Winner, 2 Post-seasons, 0 World Series appearances.
Jim Edmonds: 1149 Runs, 1786 Hits, 391 Doubles, 22 Triples, 362 HR, 1117 RBI .288 AVG, .380 OBP, .532 SLG, .912 OPS, 133 OPS+, 8 gold gloves, 4 All Stars, 2 top 10 MVP, 7 Playoff Apperances and a WS win.
If Bernie or Beltran get in and he does not he should be the one upset.
Hi trs, yeah lets leave Griffey out of this because I think it’s probably the most ridiculous statement I’ve seen here in a long time that Beltran was better than Griffey.
I think anybody who knows anything about baseball would recognize Griffey Jr > Beltran. It’s not even debateable to be honest.
But lets talk Edmonds and talk baseball, shall we?
First, Edmonds is the only MLB player tee I own that was never a Met. I loved watching Edmonds play. I gotta be honest though I don’t think he’s a HOF’er either. I think he deserves more credit than he’ll get for sure.
I don’t think Bernie is a HOF’er either. I’m not sure if I made that clear, but my point was if somebody after 14 years is telling me Beltran deserves it, then I personally think Bernie had a better career over 14 years. I’m not at all suggesting it’s night and day between them, I’m suggesting I think Bernie’s HOF credentials through 14 years are slightly more impressive than Beltrans. I’m also suggesting *IF* Bernie got in, then Beltran should get in… but not in reverse order.
Nice talkin baseball with ya
Other than Griffey to be honest I don’t see any CF in that era getting into the HOF. I see guys like Druw, Edmonds, Lofton, Damon getting less credit than they deserve and I see guys like Bernie & Beltran hopefully being measured fairly.
If Griffey didn’t exist, and didn’t set the bar for CF during this time period, it’d be a totally different argument. You’d be throwing 5-6 similar guys in a hat and picking 1 out to set the bar.
I think that Edmonds and Jones will get a lot of consideration. Maybe not right away but as time goes on.
I mean Andruw is not dead yet. He is still plugging along to a 122 OPS+ last year. He has an outside shot at 500 HR, factor in his defense (10 gold gloves) and 10 playoff appearances he very well maybe the leader in this discussion.
Two things will be huge for Druw
A) If people don’t use steroids against him (unless a test proves it)
B) People look at his numbers and remember just how dominant he was in the OF.
I’m not sold that A will be ignored to be honest, is that fair? No. But it’s a reality with these voters.
trs: yeah I don’t know about that. Druw may suffer a similar cloud as Bagwell. I am sure there have to be people who doubt his power you know?
If Edmonds got in, I think I may actually go to Cooperstown for it.
One of my biggest pet peeve is how guys need a long time to get in. I think if Edmonds or Druw are Hall of Famers, it shouldn’t take so long. It’s like Raines… do I think he should be in? Probably… and I think one day he’s going to get in because there will be similar situations like Blyleven where time moves on, new voters come in, more people who never saw him play and it will just continue to water down the hall.
To me, you’re either an all-time great or you’re not.
It is not that easy because there is not some certain standard that the voters go by and over time you do get different views in. I am fine with it taking as long as it does, do I think it should be the elite? Sure but what is the definition of elite and would that be the same for everyone? I have a problem with some just throwing their vote away because of loyalty but have no problem with people casting a vote for Bernie, Beltran or John Franco. It is not up to me to tell them who belongs and who does not. They have the vote, not me.
As to Jones and the steroid debate, is there even a smoking rubber band? Much less a smoking gun?
I agree with you mostly on Jones, Griffey, etc. Time changes things and players usually get treated well by history. But as to your comment of either All-Time great or just great, it hasn’t been that way for two decades. The HOF has been systematically diluted for almost a quarter century now, and mostly because the more they get into the HOF, the merrier for incoming dollars at Cooperstown.
Here’s the thing on Beltran. It’s to early to say yea or nay on his inclusion. There may be 5 years left in his career and many a player have been elected based on stats that were compiled because of longevity rather than because they were all time greats.
Is Don Sutton an all time great? He won 20 games once while playing for some powerhouse Dodgers teams. Is Santo really an all time great?
In the MMO HOF vote we did, I think you elected 7-8 guys to go to the HOF. I dont think the platform at Cooperstown would have been big enough to hold them all if that really happened.
The gaudy stats of the steroids era though eye popping are not as impressive as much less gaudier stats of the fifties and sixties. To me a 500 homerun hitter in 30s-60s is elite. In this era a player would have to hit 600-700 to be in that same class.
Do you think fans from the Mantle, Kiner and Maris days are wowed and blown away by the careers of Jeff Bagwell, Sammy Sosa and Rafael Palmeiro?
That’s my opinion.
I did you’re right Joe but to be fair, I gave a reason with every vote.
Jack Morris, best pitcher from 1980-1989.
Lee Smith, retired as the best closer ever.
Bagwell – I basically said out of spite lol. I said because people use unknown steroids against him that I am now voting him in
Edgar Martinez – If MLB says DH should exist then to me thebest DH Ever needs to be in the HOF.
Mac & Palmeiro – Basically an anti-steroid vote, the numbers are the numbers
I didn’t even vote Rock Raines in (sorry Xtreem)
I am not sure I would vote any of those guys in currently. Maybe Raines just because he was an incredible player that was judged against one of the all-time greats in Henderson who would be in the HOF’s HOF.
Morris to me is in the Bert category.
Lee Smith, not a chance.
Edgar? Wasn’t it you that said yesterday that position should play less of a role or in fact was playing less of a role? Then are his numbers alone even good enough to get him in? Considering he has no defensive numbers to rely on?
Mac? Most likely
Pal? Nope.
Bags, undecided.
trs: I think my position comment was taken a little out of context or not explained well enough.
With regard to Edgar and Lee Smith, they retired as THE BEST EVER at their position. Is it Lee’s fault that Mariano arrived? No…. you have to judge Smith based on his role during his era, and from the day his position was created to the day he retired, he was the best ever at it. The same can be said for Edgar in my opinion.
Do I believe players in similar era’s should be compared regardless of position? at times yes. I understand a catcher is more taxing than playing 2B, but I don’t think a CF should get in solely because he had power and usually CF’s don’t have power. Especially not if other players in his era were better than him and are NOT HOF material.
I don’t AGREE with the DH but it exists. So for me, the guy who was the best ever at that spot should be in the Hall. Edgar is 40th all-time in OPS+. That’s impressive.
You’re saying no chance for Lee Smith why? Because you compare him to today’s closer or compare him to closers from closers from day 1 to 1997.
The same I can say for Morris. Over an entire 10 years, he was the best starting pitcher in the game. Roger and Doc were probably the only ones better but neither played for the entire decade. Heck MLB Network ranked Morris #1 player of the 1980′s.
That’s just how I look at though.
No the MOST rediculus statement that has been seen here EVER was the day you said Sandy had a good day…the week he lost Reyes and replaced a .270 Hitter with a .240 hitter!
Metsie, Guess you weren’t around for the urinal’s artcle… the man is the worst to be honest…
“Take the Mets blinders off for a minute. ”
Good advice, now take it and look at thre Statistical comparison I made!
Seems Beltran is just as good as Griffey with the exception of 8 HRs per year hit in a HR hitter friendly park as opposed to A Dome, Shea and Citifield!
Take the blinders off and look at the number EVIDENCE!
Maybe you will even learn something!
Carlos Beltran’s Adjusted OPS+ of 121 (factoring in park factors) places him 39th currently in the MLB with a minimum of 3,000 PA. That gives him a rank of 316th all-time. KGJr is at 135 ranking him tied with George Brett and others at 108.
Next.
hey trs, good point on OPS+, thanks for bringing that up. But look at this just to take your point 1 step further.
If you’re comparing apples to apples, that is Beltran’s 14 years to Junior’s 1st 14… Griffey’s OPS+ was 145!
So Griffey had more runs scored, more hits, 166 more HR!, better average, better obp, better slugging, more all-star appearances, more mvp’s, more top 10 mvp, more gold glove, more silver slugger’s and an OPS+ 24 points higher!
Frankly, comparing Beltran to Griffey is really unfair to both of them. It’s unfair to hold Beltran to that standard and unfair to bring Griffey down to that level.
True and hurts the discussion for Andruw because he was much more of a free swinger and OBP was never his strong point.
Taking Griffey’s first 14 years is apples to apples?
How rediculous are you going to get!
I made the perfect APPLES to APPLES comparison!
By showing what their PER YEAR Average was!
But keep reaching for those poor sabermetric straws!
It shows how desperate you really are to make Beltran out to be a slouch!
Beltran is not a slouch, he is just not currently a HOF. He is no where NEAR the level of a first ballot HOF like KGJR in any way you look at it. He however is right in line with Edmonds, Jones, and Bernie. Were those guys slouches? Nope. HOF? Eventually? Maybe. Likely? Not so sure. Beltran in my opinion would have to have a 2nd wind to get in.
Call me in 7 years and we can talk about first ballot status!
All I said is he has the numbers to make the Hall!
Griffey does because he played a half a decade before beltran in an age before the new athletes (Bigger Stronger faster and growth hormones were the norm!)
No one is taking anything away from Griffey
But some are trying to take away from Beltran!
And the only reason for it is they know if he does well the Sandy Cheerleaders are going to have to explain why getting a .240 hitter was a GOOD move and keeping Beltran was not!
For 13 Mil they could have gotten a lot more bang for the buck than what they spent 13 Mil on this offseason!
This whole attempt to say Beltran isn’t a HOF potential is just that, an attempt to downplay the loss because god forbid anyone suggests a possible HOFer was let go by Sandy for a maybe Pitcher!
He let him go because he has had a huge injury issue, made too much money and was leaving anyway. What you need to do is let it go… LOL.
My thoughts on Beltran have nothing to do with some conspiracy theory. You can go back and read what I have always written on Beltran. Incredible player, not HOF worthy at this point, not even on the same level.
Point is this entire article was created by Jessup for the purpose I mentioned!
We could have EASILY debated the merits of beltran and the Hall in the original thread!
And we were until every player Jessup mentioned as a comparator to Beltrans failure at being Hall Worthy was disputed and he had to start a new thread to hide the previous failures!
He started with Green, when that didn’t work he went to Beltre and when I mentioned a guy who is ACTUALLY in the HOF and had similar numbers this article was created to move the conversation away from that fact!
You supported him which is why I put you in his camp!
What your reasoning is doesn’t really matter!
Your enabling the agenda that I am arguing against!
Giving it creedence!
Does beltran have the creds to get Hall consideration? Yes or No?
If you say no then tell us WHY he falls short compared to guys like Ashburn who made it in as a CF!
What an absolute ridiculous post. So because I think that Beltran does not have the numbers currently to be in the hall I am now part of some conspiracy theory game that you are playing? Can I please fold my pawn down and just talk while you guys go at it? I am here to talk baseball not play some sides game.
As for Beltran, no he currently does not have the creds to be in the HOF but we are not voters so it doesn’t make a damn what we think anyway
As for comparing him to Ashburn… that’s a fallacy. We could play that game all the time. Does David Wright have the creds to be a HOF? You think I could find a HOF 3B with worse numbers?
hey TRS: just wanted to make note, I’ve only written to you and only talked baseball today. That’s my plan.
PS obviously Your “Team Jessep” t-shirt is in the mail.
Guilt by Association!
You made the choice didn’t you?
Even if your not part of the conspiracy your still part of the stupidity!
Lucky for you there is safety in numbers!
Seriously, do you not realize how ridiculous you sound? The fact that in MY opinion Beltran does not currently have the creds for the HOF and is not on the same level as KGJR I am part of a conspiracy to bring down Beltran?
This makes takes away from your own creds.
Ahhh good ole OPS that is one of the worst Sabers ever invented!
Nice try!
Is that the only stat you have to trump the 4 or 5 I mentioned?
Really weak!
Not OPS but OPS+, pay attention. You know the one that factors in the park they played in?
OPs+ is not much better than OPS!
Adding two stats and calling it an indicator is so simplistic and wrong on so many levels I wouldn’t even know where to start!
Sorry but OPS and anything that uses OBP as a starting point is not going to fly in this discussion!
Works on guys like jessup not the rest of us!
Did you see my PER YEAR comparison? Or did you gloss over all of that just to take up the Cheer jessup was running at the time?
OK so lets take out one of the best ways to compare overall offensive production. Fine. You do realize that for the most part their career OBP are similar? .361 for Beltran compared to .370 for KGJR.
Also the park factor for Griffey? Based on what I am reading the park played out at 100.5 during his tenure. Hardly a park that overwhelmingly favored hitters during that time.
All the offense that Beltran and Griffey offer and this guy wants to diminish it by talking about their on base percentages. First he uses OPS+, now OBP – it’s a disgrace.
These guys have such good to great numbers in HR’s and RBIs, the ability to drive in runs, doubles, each guy with 8 100 RBI seasons and it’s all reduced to OPS+ and OBP. This saber CRAP does diminish the importance of guy’s careers and any new follower will now NEVER learn about these people or even regular traditional readers will learn to forget exactly how these guys hit because it’s all reduced to text message stats like OPS+ and useless OBP for these guys. These guys are power hitters who happen to have good eyes but the new breed want to talk about their eyes instead of their ability to win games driving in runs. Ridiculous.
You can’t read….
I said that fine take OBP out as they are both about equal. What remains is their SLG% and that clearly favors KGJR.
Also, you can’t read in the fact that I also produced their counting stats that clearly favor KGJR. I do not rely solely on your fangeld saber stats either however they are a great tool in comparing overall production.
Clearly favors KGjr because he plays in a HR hitters park!
Career slug for Grifey is .538
For Beltran .496
Your talking about 4 or 5 HRs per 100 hits.
And again that doesn’t take into account the fact Griffey hit in a HR hitters park for just about ALL of his career!
SEA 1,037
CIN 1.314
US CELL 1.230
Vs Beltran
Kaufman .708
Minute Maid 1.160 (One Year there!)
Citi .735
Get it now?
Yet during Griffey’s time at the Kingdome the park played even according to BPF while Beltran’s time in KC the park played at 105. I suppose that is another illegal stat to use because the only ones that count are the ones you say count.
Do you realize that the reason thier OBP is similar is because Griffey got intentionally walked a lot more than Beltran and tha isn’t a SKILL of a batter?
OBP is one of the WORST indicators of actual Batting skill that exists because it gives a batter credit for a decision made by the pitcher!
If I got intentionally walked 5 times out of 10 and made an out the other 5 would I be considered a GOOD BATTER?
Or just a guy who was lucky enough to bat in front of an easy out?
Hmmm, why do you think KGJR was intentionally walked so much and Beltran was not?
Did KGJr have Carlos Delgado and David Wright batting behind him in the lineup?
Or was he pretty much the only threatening bat in that Seattle lineup and if you don’t let him hit he can’t burn you?
Did Beltran in KC?
And you do realize that the year that Griffey hit his 56 HR and was intentionally walked 23 times he had some guys named,
Alex Rodriguez, Edgar Martinez, Jay Buhner (40 HR that year), Paul Sorrento (31 HR).
I Posted Park factors for HRs, ignore them if you must to feel better about your position!
My mindset: it’s reduced to even though this is an interesting debate about Carlos and the HOF, I can’t even bother making the case for or against or offering a series opinion. It’s just not worth the flame war a few have made this site lately.
I’ll just go with: ‘what Gina said’…..
Now you have gotten me looking into just how good Andruw was. Over a 10 year period from 1998-2007:
345 HR, 1034 RBI, 10 gold gloves, 8 playoff appearances. Hell those 10 years in CF might have been enough to get him in.
Well trs let me be clear. I don’t really care about steroids 1 way or the other to be honest.
I think there is no smoking gun with Bagwell either but you know it’s being held against him right?
I’m not saying Druw took them one way or the other but that 2005 year does look a bit odd right? And I think the crime of the steroid era is that it doesn’t allow for career years to be looked at as just great years
But somebody is going to look at a ballot and see a DRASTIC increase in power at age 28 and 29 compared to 27 and then a DRASTIC decline in power from 30 years old and on. And you know Druw Jones appeared bigger with age, he actually looks like a poster boy for what happens after you’ve finished steroids with the body mass.
One day, somehow, that list of 100+ players is going to come out, and I would not be shocked if Druw Jones was on it, would you?
Too dangerous, would you be shocked if some Mets players names were on it as well?
Absolutely not trs. If you told me tomorrow there’s a list with Piazza’s name on it, I’d say “shocker” in a sarcastic tone.
And that’s about the amount of effort I’d give into caring about it.
I was listening to Joe & Evan the other day and some caller called about Tom Brady and steroids and Joe/Evan basically said in the NFL nobody cares about steroids. To me, steroids probably help you more in football than in baseball but yet NFL gets away with a fan care-free attitude.
I don’t care about steroids anymore because the shock has worn off. I don’t think there’s a player, GM, owner, manager, coach out there during that time that had no idea who was taking it… nor do I think there are many beat writers out there (if they are any good) who were clueless.
Agreed which is why I don’t play the assumption game at all.
Andru jones was a steroid junkie. he shot his knees using steroids.. either that, or he really wasn’t 18 years old as they said he was.. and for those who said you don’t care about steroids, is funny how after reyes took himself out of the game to preserved his batting title he was a disgrace to the game, but braun who was CAUGHT taking PED’s is a guy we should all admire and root for.. the hypocresy is pathetic…
Who the heck is saluting Ryan Braun? Stop lumping all of us into the same category. For my part Jessup might be as bad as you guys. Stop ruining the damn discussion…. LOL.
As for Jones with steroids, I don’t like playing the assumption game. It’s not fair because I am more likely to see the signs on a player I don’t like than I am a player I do. For example are we all 100% sure that Jose Reyes did not use roids at any point? Beltran? Wright? Piazza? Yet we are 100% sure Jones did?
ohhh, and Metsie, the CORE salutes you, but i am not sure how old you are, and trust me, i LOVE carlos beltran, but you need to quit while you are ahead.. ken griffey jr was the best player in baseball during the 90′s, and it wasn’t even close, not the best CF, the BEST PLAYER in the World.. so, any argument comparing beltran to him is a bit out of line.. i get what you’re saying, and i am not sure how old you are, but if you saw griffey jr play, you would not have this argument. had not being for injuries the man could’ve finish with more hr’s in the history of the game, had the purest swing in the game, the best OF in the game, he can hit for power, good average, speed, i mean, when you mention the best 5 tool players in the history of the game, willie may, griffey and bonds should be at the top of anyone’s list..
I agree with all of this, however I would like to point out that you are mentioning Bonds who I think it is a much clearer case against him for roids than Andruw. Obviously I know that Bonds was a MUCH better player with or with out the roids than Beltran or Jones.