23
2011
We’ve Seen These So-Called Nice Hauls From Beane Before
An article by 
Athletic’s GM Billy Beane is getting lots of praise today for the hauls he’s apparently gotten for young pitchers Trevor Cahill and Gio Gonzalez, two pitchers Beane hailed as the part of the sustainable winning run he predicted back in 2007 when he traded his team’s best players at the time; Nick Swisher and Dan Haren.
Now five years later, both players are gone and apparently the returns include a handful of players who were prominent on the top ten prospects lists for each team.
But I gotta tell you, we’ve seen this before from Beane and hopefully he fares much better than he did the last time he blew it all up and started over.
Dan Haren Trade
December 14, 2007 - A’s general manager Billy Beane deals ace right-hander Dan Haren, 26, to the Arizona Diamondbacks for a package of six D-Backs’ top prospects that included LHP Brett Anderson, LHP Dana Eveland, LHP Greg Smith, infielder Chris Carter and outfielders Carlos Gonzalez and Aaron Cunningham. Four of the players Arizona gave up were among their top ten prospects.
Billy Beane – “We need to get back to the point where we put together a club that has a chance at a long, sustained run. This trade was the first major step toward doing that.”
What Happened Next - The best name in that group, Carlos Gonzalez, was shipped along with LHP Greg Smith and A’s closer Huston Street to the Colorado Rockies for four months of Matt Holliday. This was like the Beltran for Wheeler trade squared in favor of the Rockies. The A’s traded Holliday to the Cards for Brett Wallace, Shane Peterson and Clayton Mortenson. Brett Anderson who finished 3-6 with a 4.00 ERA and 1.366 WHIP for the A’s last season, may become the A’s ace after Beane’s purging is complete. And you thought the Mets had problems… The promising Chris Carter has a .167/.226/.234 slash in 114 major league at-bats, but more troubling than that was his 41 strikeouts. He should start the season in Triple-A but given the A’s situation he could end up being rushed into an Opening Day job. Aaron Cunningham and Dana Eveland are both gone and were PTBNL’s in a couple of minor transactions.
Final Conclusion - None of the players acquired led to the successful run of championship baseball Beane predicted in 2007 when he blew up his team much as he’s doing now. Carter could still turn out to be a quality player, but so far the early results look bleak.
Nick Swisher Trade
January 8, 2008 – The A’s trade 27-year-old Nick Swisher, a switch-hitter and one of the team’s most popular players, to the Chicago White Sox for three of their top prospects; LHP Gio Gonzalez, RHP Fautino De Los Santos and highly regarded outfielder Ryan Sweeney.
Billy Beane – “Our status quo as we stood going into the season was mediocrity at best. That’s my opinion. If anything we’re taking a step back with the idea we have a chance to build something very good for a long time.”
What Happened Next – Fautino De Los Santos went 3-2 last season with a 4.32 ERA, and has gone from promising starter to middle reliever in the A’s bullpen. Ryan Sweeney had settled into a utility outfielder role last season and batted .267 with one homer and 25 RBI in 299 plate appearances for the A’s. With the losses of Coco Crisp and David DeJesus to free agency, he has a decent shot to win a regular spot in the 2012 outfield. Gio Gonzalez, the jewel of the trade, has already been traded for yet another haul as the cycle continues.
Final Conclusion – The conclusion here is that there doesn’t seem to be one. It’s simply a vicious cycle of drafting high and then trading those players after 2-3 years in the majors for more draft picks or top prospects. There’s nothing substantive happening here.
* * * * * * * * * *
So what does this mean? Not much, but it does show how volatile a strategy based solely on collecting draft picks and top prospects can be.
After the Swisher trade Keith Law of ESPN said, “By trading their best hitter and best pitcher for nine prospects, Beane and assistant GM David Forst have done an excellent job in replenishing a farm system with some of the best prospects in the game today. This will set them up for years to come.”
I think not.
The consensus among all the talking heads in 2007 was the same as it is today, “This was quite the haul for them.”
As it stands now, the A’s lost four excellent and productive seasons from Dan Haren in return for nothing yet
Last season for the Los Angeles Angels, Haren led the AL in starts with 34 and posted a 3.14 ERA a 1.02 WHIP and an MLB leading 5.82 K/BB.
During that same span, Nick Swisher has averaged 25 home runs and 80 RBI’s since the A’s traded him with an .843 OPS. He’s hit more home runs, 105, than the A’s starting outfield combined.
You tell me… who got the nicer hauls?
If this is the model for the New York Mets, I have some deep concerns.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
243 Comments + Add Comment
Recent Comments
- Russell's Mets: on Gee Roughed Up As Braves Shutout The Mets 6-0: Funny, the Cardinals have no problem having...
- three blind mice: on Gee Roughed Up As Braves Shutout The Mets 6-0: “if it’s not the starter it’s a...
- Carlos Gomez: on Gee Roughed Up As Braves Shutout The Mets 6-0: You could have me in centerfield, but...
- Carlos Gomez: on Gee Roughed Up As Braves Shutout The Mets 6-0: I bet you'd like me in centerfield...
- Doug: on Gee Roughed Up As Braves Shutout The Mets 6-0: Wow! He left a 35 year old...
Need Tickets To The Mets Game?
Check Out These Great MLB Links!
Photographs From Gordon Donovan
5397 Fans Follow Us On Twitter!
1269 Fans Like Us On Facebook!
2341 Fans Read Our Feed!
1702 Fans Subscribe via Daily Email!
Man… lets be clear about something. If people don’t want to talk about Billy Beane or the A’s here, this is a pretty odd way of doing it. All this will do is encite an argument, not a discussion
I will try to discuss and watch the insults fly:
You are however way off on some of this.
Matt holliday dealings backfired. Bad job all around.
However, your evaluation of the Haren trade is not your best work. For starters you totally write off Brett Anderson who is only 23, and if you’ve seen him pitch he has a lot of big league upside and that is why he was signed through 2015 by Oakland.
CarGo at age 22 looked lost at the big league level for Oakland. 2010 was a monster year of course but CarGo has a long way to prove that he wasn’t a 1 hit wonder.
Chris Carter has tore up the minor leagues, and they still believe he can translate it to big league success.
You also don’t point out that they got Dan Haren plus Daric Barton for Mark Mulder…
I’m not totally sure what the issue with the Nick Swisher trade is? They dealt a guy who went on to have an epic failure of a season with his new team and acquired a guy who would be in their rotation for 3-4 years.
I think when people start pointing fingers like this, it creates a false sense of “everybody’s perfect.” Nobody suggests Beane is perfect, nor do we suggest Alderson is.
For what he wanted to do here, he did a nice job with the dealings of Cahill & Gio. I’m not sure what Nick Swisher has to do with that at all.
Man… lets be clear about something. If people don’t want to talk about Billy Beane or the A’s here, this is a pretty odd way of doing it.
What the heck are you talking about??? When did I ever say that? I always talk baseball here, as the banner says baseball site for die hard Mets fans. What is up with you lately?
His problem is your tainting all of his KOOL AID!
Ruining his propaganda campaign!
Exposing his idea for fixing this team for what it is…turning an MLB team into a developmental squad for the rest of the MLB in the name of increasing the number of prospects listed in Baseball America!
THATS what up with Jessup!
“CarGo at age 22 looked lost at the big league level for Oakland. 2010 was a monster year of course but CarGo has a long way to prove that he wasn’t a 1 hit wonder.”
CarGo 2011: 481 AB’s, 27 2b’s, 3 3B’s, 26 HR’s, 92 RBI, 20 SB’s, 48 BB’s, 105 K’s, .295 BA.
He’s not a 1 hit wonder…..and the fact that he struggled when he 1st came up doesn’t justify trading him.
And if you want to bring up the Mulder trade then we should also bring up the Hudson trade. They traded Hudson for Jaun Cruz, Dan Meyer, and Charles Thomas.
That was the trade that should have mentioned in this post. More research next time! Beanes been getting his backside reamed for half a decade now.
Some of his other great trades:
Andre Either for Milton Bradley
Ted Lilly for Bobby Kielty
Aaron Harang for Jose Guillen(only played 45 games for the A’s)
Nelson Cruz for Keith Ginter(hey, if we are going criticize the Mets for trading Cruz, it’s only fair if if we criticize Beane too, right?)
no those don’t count Vinny
No criticizing of Billy Beane and no questioning of Sandy Alderson’s judgement is allowed.
Only praise since there are some people here, for whatever reason, want to do things like the A’s.
I mean what’s wrong with you? Do you actually want the Mets to be more like the Yankees? Is that what you want?
Don’t forget how the A’s acquired Gio Gonzalez to begin with. After 4 years of Swisher (a former #1 pick) they traded him for Gio, got three years from him and now have 4 pretty to very good prospects. This is something small market clubs have to a lot of but it certainly beats what we turn our #1 draft choices into. Salary dumps or watch them retire and leave behind nothing.
We spent a #1 pick on Wagner, Alou and K-Rod. Wagner left behind Chris Carter, Alou nothing and K-Rod was a salary dump.
Coleman, Appier and Zeile cost us # 1 picks too. Coleman got us the last year of a disinterested Kevin McReynolds, Appier got us a year or two of Mo Vaughn and Zeile (and Benny Agbayani) were turned into Burnitz and Jeff D’Amico.
At least the A’s have actually gotten decent play from some of their prospects and the four guys they got for Gio are a hell of a lot of depth (with upside) at the very least with a good chance of being a lot more than that.
If Beane was the GM of the Mets, you would be killing him for trading Carlos Gonzalez, Huston Street, Andre Either, Aaron Harang, Ted Lilly, and Nelson Cruz for almost nothing……And going into last year, they were ranked one of the worst minor league systems in the league. Before these trades, the Mets minors were MUCH better than the A’s.
And we have gotten decent play from our minor leaguers too.
That doesn’t really address anything I said.
I’m already on record here as saying Bean’s trading acumen is artificially hyped up and has as many big misses as hits.
I’m also on record as saying his drafts have been awful especially the famed moneyball draft back in 2002 in which HE is on record as having taken over the process.
What he has done well is recycle guys he has hit on but he hasn’t had much to add them too. Blanton brought Outman and the chance of Cardonis being a decent 2B. Swisher brought Gio and the chance of some others. Gio brought the very realistic chance of Cole being as good and Norris being a real good catcher too as well as a couple other shots at getting something either out of the pen or 3rd-5th SP’s and then being turned into other good prospects. Same with Cahill/Parker. This is Bean’s only chance to have six or more really good young players all come up around the same time which is where his only success has been.
If he had been drafting well all along or all his trades were wins he wouldn’t be going this route because he wouldn’t have too. As it is he has to sell high or risk getting nothing at all.
Well, yor post about the Mets giving away 1st round picks has nothing to do with my original post. Vince Coleman signed about 20 years ago – Who cares? And what does that have to do with Billy Beane anyway?
And you know what’s going to happen if the players they get back from these trades turn into anything good? they’ll get traded just like Gio, Cahil, and Swisher – I don’t see how trading two good young pitchers like Gio and Cahil is a good thing, it’s actually a very bad thing – it just shows how terrible of a team they are that they have to keep trading away the only good players they have.
I see as two reasons. Very poor draft results over the last decade has failed to provide enough good young players to replicate what they were able to do when they had their big 6 all come up near each other AND a very small market.
Say they had 3 top offensive guys in their 2nd or 3rd year would they have traded Gio and Cahill? I can’t say but I would choose no if I had to pick one or the other.
It comes down to the draft. They cannot be competitive if they don’t draft well. Their only chance of competing without drafting well is to hit a few times on those 3-1 or 4-1 trades so they’ll have 6 or more top young cost controlled players all come up at the same time.
Beane did get the pitchers but the hitters didn’t come through. That’s not good enough and he can’t wait the extra 2 years and the draft plus 4 more in development time so he’s going for guys closer and safer, with good chances but he’s also getting rid of guys sooner.
Really doesn’t have anything to do with us but that’s his strategy in my opinion and again it’s due to poor drafting that he hasn’t been able to add any offense to make keeping the pitching worthwhile.
How many top 5 picks did they have to get the talent they got in 86?
How many have they had to get the same in the last decade?
Lets look!
2001-2011 Total top 5 Picks = ONE, Total Top 10 Picks = 3
1976-1986 Total Top 5 Picks = 7, Total top 10 Picks = Same 7!
Something you just refuse to acknowledge when you compare the two builds!
In BOTH builds we had a lot of traded for and bought stars!
86 had Carter, Hernandez, Knight, Ojeda, and Foster
2006 had Delgado, Beltran, Floyd, LoDuca, Glavine, Martinez, Trachsel, Hernandez
Which is what you have to do when you only get 3 Top 10 Picks in a decade compared to 7 Top 5 Picks in one!
But you go right on believing smarts and not sucking is what made the 86ers and that Stars are not needed to make a playoff!
I’ll see you in two years when all your hope actually gets on the MLB Roster and will hash it out then!
It’s not how many top 10 picks you get it’s what you do with those picks that matters.
Did having the 2nd overall pick help the Phillies when they picked JD Drew? Of course not because he never signed with them. Did having the 4th pick overall help the Phillies when they picked Gavin Floyd? How could it? They traded him (and Gio) for one **** year of Freddy Garcia and lost him for nothing. Having the pick didn’t do squat for them, in fact if anything it hurt their chances.
Neither of those picks helped the Phillies in any way shape or form. The mere fact that they had those picks doesn’t mean ****.
The 1986 Mets drafted Straw (1st overall) and Gooden (3rd overall) and traded two former top 10 picks for Gary Carter (Herm Winningham 9th and Hubie Brooks 3rd) as well as 2nd and 6th rounder so that’s three players on the ’86 team culled from top 10 picks.
Keith was traded for a current major leaguer drafted in the 11th round and a minor leaguer taken in the 13 th round. Ray Knight wasn’t acquired by trading former top 5 or top 10 picks either. We got him for a 5th rounder and an IFA. Orrosco came in a Wheeler type trade (Koosman) so did Ron Darling and Hojo. So did Sid. Ojeda came from a 1st rounder # 27, Santana was waived by St. Louis. Danny Heap came from a 2nd rounder. (Mike Scott)
Dykstra (13th round), Mookie (2nd round) Aguilera (3rd) Kevin Mitchell (undrafted) McDowell (3rd round) came from the farm, some with the same exact draft picks we’ve used on guys like Weathers, Bay, Bonilla and Cedeno.
That team did have 3 important pieces that were or came from #1 picks but many more important pieces that came from the Wheeler type trade and many more that came from our own farm system and several key trades involving guys taken in the 5th-13th ROUND AND ZERO expensive free agents. In fact the closest thing to a free agent was George Foster. You know the big star type that drives attendance. ‘Nuff said.
Top 5 or top 10 picks can make a big difference and in the case of Tampa and Washington have and probably will but 3 guys does not make a World Championship team. Not in ’86, 2012 or any other year going back to BC.
And pray tell WHAT CAN YOU DO with Top 10 Picks you do not have because you do not SUCK the season before to get those picks in order to do something WITH THEM?
You say they did a great job with top 5 picks in the years before 86 and didn’t in 2001-2011 but never ONCE admit they didn’t have all that many picks to do something GOOD with!
How the hell can you have as good a draft and get as many kids with only 3 top 10 picks as you can with 7 top 5 picks?
HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN?
EXPLAIN who will ALWAYS look like they had the better draft the guy with 3 top 10s or the guy with 7 top 5′s?
HUH?
LOL Vinny
If beane was the GM of the Mets they would also not be making 25 year historical walks down memory lane either!
The problem (and arguments) would then be about how it’s won nothing since 1995 which if you notice in any discussion about the A’s and their philosophy usually ends that particular rely thread in any discussion of Moneyball!
The folks who defend Beane all think it is a good system and the same folks are the ones who think winning leads to attendance!
It doesn’t increase attendance for the MLB squad just the affiliates because most of the hope of the franchise is in the MiLs not the MLB roster!
NYY attendance has gone up every since 1995 with just a blip in 2000 (maybe our winning stole some paying baseball fans) and then the smaller stadium in 2009.
NYY haven’t been bringing in bushels of huge free agents over the last 15 years. Who have they brought in? CC, Tex, Burnett and all those guys were in the same year. Count A-Rod as a trade in 2004 but O’Neil wasn’t a big star. Tino? He wasn’t a big star. Swisher? Granderson? Clemmens I’ll give you though he was a trade too. Knoblauch wasn’t and Soriano wasn’t either. Either was El-Duque, Contreas, Wright, Pavano, Irabu, ect so what’s that? 5 guys in 15 years?
The rest were smart baseball moves made for the sake of one thing and one thing only. Winning. That’s why their attendance has gone up almost every single year for 15 years.
Who said that you needed Bushels of stars?
They acquired one or two top players a year (just as WE did) but they keep them and replace them when someone better comes along!
And by doing so they have a team full of stars who keep attendance and hope alive!
Your the only one who tries to paint our acquisitions as an all at once proposition!
Yanks go and buy talent only when they feel the buy is better than what they have!
And when it does not appear better they don’t go and get it!
Which is the mistake Omar made with Bay!
But since you brought it up I wonder why the yankees never seem to have problems making payroll despite spending what will soon be TWICE what we are spending while still losing 30 Mil because we only cut 40 Mil of Salary from a 70 Mil loss season!
Which is likely to lose as much and more with no attendance from Reyes and Beltran!
So your point Metsie is if we sign a free agent bust and then bust on picks in rounds 2-5 and the Phillies select Rollins in the 2nd round we did a better job then they did huh?
Very very strange conclusion.
We’ve finished in front of the Phillies once in the last 10 years and they’ve traded prospect after prospect out of their farm system and our two systems are pretty equal. How do you explain that one?
Plus don’t pull the old BS about top 10 picks and then apply it to every round because that means the player drafted in the 2nd round was available to everyone, even the defending World Champs so that disproves YOUR false assertion about needing to “suck for 20 years” in order to get these players.
Plus Rollins was drafted 11th in the 2nd round, a pick the Phillies wouldn’t have had if they had signed a type A free agent.
yeah which free agent bust did we sign that cost us from picking Rollins? and Howard?
You have gone far beyond rediculous!
See you in 2015…if we haven’t won anything by then guess what…your plan FAILED!
Because you think we can win the WS by then if we are as smart as the Phillies and the braves!
See ya then bring lots of Egg removal!
Whos’ to say Sandy’s plan is my plan? He wasn’t even on my list last year.
One thing we do know is YOUR plan has failed and failed miserably at that.
Monkeyball has been an unmitigated disaster that has repulsed the fan base with the constant relying on only those expensive and underperforming free agents who come here and stink up the joint. You’ve had 25 years and ZIPPO.
Unless your idea of success is a handful of meaningful Septembers.
Three playoff appearances in 20 years. Same as the Pittsburgh Pirates, and that’s WITH the highest payroll in the National League. Jeez how much worse could you do?
Yeah it was such a disaster for those damn Yankees wasn’t it?
How many times have they won the WS compared to the Braves and Phillies again?
How many times has your plan worked for oakland, Pirates?
Yeah Monkeyball was just such a failure that it produced more consecutive competitive seasons than any Met team over the course of your 25 years!
That might be good if he was the GM of the A’s Affiliates but he is the GM of the A’s and has won nothing since he took over the franchise.
What good is it to have those kids if you never actually build a winner with them?
OR are you perhaps admitting that you CAN’T build with Kids and his owners are to blame for not keeping them and buying other FAs to be a winner?
Cause that seems to be the future excuse for Sandy when he trades off all these good players and wins nothing with all the kids he is getting!
Well we have a better chance of winning with Wheeler in the farm than without and had Carlos not been traded we would have one less chance. K-Rod was just one more in a long long line of #1 draft choices we turned into salary dumps starting long before Alderson or Minaya were the GM.
Bean’s success came when he developed Zito, Hudson, Mulder, Chavez, Giambi and Swisher. He hasn’t had that success since and consequently has gone out and tried to manufacture it by trading guys after 3-4 years in 3-1 or 4-1 deals. If he had been drafting well it would have been worth it to keep those guys, since he hasn’t he’s been recycling them but Blanton hasn’t been good since he left but Outman has and Cardeanas has a chance.
That’s a lot more than what we usually spend our #1 picks on can say.
How many wins will Wheeler add to the mets record next year pray tell?
How many wins will he add once Wright and Neise is gone?
Here is a newsflash for you…
Wheeler isn’t going to be helping the Mets win a game for another two years!
And by that time if we maintain this dismantling he won’t have a team he could add wins to!
Again with the snarky pray tell. Mr. Innocent over here.
Wheeler is guaranteed to add at least as many as Carlos would have and with any luck and good fortune, maybe 100 beginning in Sept 2013.
You can prove that can you?
Please do can’t wait to hear it!
Neither will add wins to 2012 thats for sure!
And you have no proof that Wheeler will even be healthy and playing baseball in 2013!
And you can’t prove he won’t either so let’s dispense with the two bald men fighting over a comb type argument and occasionally a well run team will try to add minor league depth when they have a chance so their not chronically challenged to “fill holes” every off season.
Even going all in from 2006-2008 we might have been able to do the same thing in 2005 and 2009 and who knows? Maybe had successfully developed a key piece that would turn a weakness into a strength in 2012.
Hell maybe back in 2004 we don’t make the opposite type of move and have consequently have Kazmir in the rotation from 2006-2010.
Your moves can not always be in just one direction or the only direction your going to go in is down.
Sure I can he isn’t on the team!
You have to BE ON THE TEAM to get that team wins!
So until that happens and you can prove he will make the team in some way I am currently CORRECT and you can’t prove I’m not!
You could have made the same statement back when Koosman, Mazilli, Walt Terrill, Ed Hearn or Bob Bailor were traded. You would have been “currently correct” but what ******* difference does that make in the whole scheme of things?
Unless your a Mayan that is.
What difference you say?
Pray tell what were the attendance figures?
Does Sub 1 Mil attendance ring a bell?
Wheeler is guaranteed to do s omething????? Wow! You must be a seer…. You know how many wins he will have.. you know he cannot get injured. wow.. You are really full of yourself t agee.
Yeah the whole reason why they all cling to this future thing is because they have a time machine that they can skip the next two years of suck and jump right to the good stuff apparently!
Funny I wonder where this Time Machine was back in 2008 where they could have predicted Bay was a mistake and Beltran and Delgado would miss the entire 2009 Season!
Or where it was when Generation K was the great hope of future world Series guarantees!
Or where was it and all those great draft picks we supposedly made when the 86 Mets failed to repeat after being so expertly drafted and built?
Actually the reason is we’ve seen the past. Seen it repeated here over and over again. Seen the results, seen the excuses, seen the whole “well who else could we have gotten to play 2B, LF, RF, C, set up man, starting pitcher.” Ad nauseum.
Seen it, lived it, moved on.
Now we want to win. Win and keep winning for more than just a year or two. Maybe a build up won’t lead to that but at least it won’t preclude it. Prospects can always be traded while their in your system. Wheeler could be traded tomorrow if we were offered something enticing.
Too many of our 1st and 2nd round draft choices turned into guys you couldn’t even give away or they got hurt and that was that. No championships and no high end talent in the farm cause our best draft choices went to other teams which in turn led to many more “holes to fill.”
“Now we want to win”
And getting rid of what could be the closest thing to a team MVP, Getting rid of your only effective closer, trading way your RBI leader and acquiring Torres does that?
Really?
We will see! I hope you have a good Egg Removal pad all picked out to clean your face next September!
Better buy a case because you will need enough to last you until 2016 because thats how long you have to wait until the eggs stop appearing on the puss!
We’re not going to win in the few years it is likely Beltran and K-Rod will still be effective players for a very good reason. We have a very average farm system and no money to import impact players.
Last year we parked 71 M or half the payroll on the DL or useless list. This year it’s down to 16 for sure but possibly all the way up to 41.
Monkeyball hasn’t worked here. All monkeyball has done is take away from 2012. Just imagine if instead of giving away a 2nd round pick for Weathers, Cedeno and Bay we had picked up a great catcher. Plenty of them out there. Taken in the 2nd round all the time. How about if instead of using a #1 pick on Wagner, Alou or K-Rod we had picked up a great OFer that was coming up this year? Probably precludes us from signing Bay.
We could have and should have resigned Reyes but because of all the money thrown down the toilet every year, there was non left.
Monkeyball, the gift that keeps giving.
Yes for a very good reason…They won’t be here!
And Wheeler can’t make up for that during that period of time!
Could have gotten Wheeler any number of ways!
Sure didn’t take K-Rod to get him did it?
Yes we lost 70 Mil last year with a 140 Mil Salary!
We now are going to have a 100Mil salary!
Will we MAKE money or just lose another 30 Mil if by some chance we draw the same without Reyes, beltran and K-Rod?
What did you solve pray tell?
You lost 30 more mil ON TOP of the 70 we lost with them!
You have not solved the problem!
Monkeyball DID WORK!
2005-2008!
Three consecutive meaningfull septembers AND Increase in attendance from 2.3 Mil to 4 Mil
no losses! ALL THE BILLS GOT PAID DIDN’T THEY?!
Funny you seem to forget that!
And the only thing you have is you thought Jason Bay was a STAR SIGNING which pretty much shows how much you know about STAR players and STAR DRAW!
“Monkeyball DID WORK!
2005-2008!
Three consecutive meaningfull septembers AND Increase in attendance from 2.3 Mil to 4 Mil”
When it fits your argument and its about the Mets, meaningful septembers mean something, right? How many championships did they win Metsie?
Yet when we talk about how Beane’s “moneyball” changed the sport, and they were winning over 100 games and not only had meaningful septembers, but made the post season it didn’t mean jack and it didn’t work because they didn’t win a championship. How many times have we heard you on here say “Moneyball has never won anything because Beane’s never won a championship”? I could prob go back and site at least a dozen times if I really cared to. How many times did the Mets win 100 games in those four years Metsie? and they made the post season ONE time.
How can you even be taken seriously on here when you contradict yourself like that?
You’re a joke Metsie.
Well you A’s fan set the bar on what was a success not me!
Mets made it to more WS than the A’s have since moneyball and went further in the playoffs than the A’s did as well!
It’s not just Metsie Chris. All the monkeyballers constantly claim Beane “won nothing” while puffing up the results of monkeyball at every opportunity.
Let’s see.
The team with the smallest payroll wins 5 pennants in 5 years.
The team with the largest payroll wins 5 pennants in 50 years.
Ergo monkeyball is a proven success.
Wheeler is guaranteed to add at least as many wins as Carlos would have here had he not been traded. What’s so difficult to see about that? How can you add wins to the team when your in another organization? Unless your of the belief that we were going to resign him if we hadn’t have traded him, which you put you at odds on that point with every single other person on the planet.
Doesn’t take being a “seer” to see the obvious.
Oh please get friggin Real here!
At BEST Wheeler stars 30 games and even if he wins all 30 that PALES in comparison to how many Game Winning Hits Beltran and his bat would have contributed over the course of 162 games!
You gotta be kidding me saying crap like that!
A Pitcher can pitch a no hitter and still lose the game!
He cant’t win unless the batters score a run for him and Beltran was our leading RBI guy last season even AFTER missing half the season because he was traded!
You think Torres is going to make that up?
Is Wheeler?
You just gave away 162 chances to win for 30!
Beltran could help us win EVERY game Wheeler can only help us win the 30 or so he actually started!
So that was probably the most rediculous statement ever uttered regarding the Beltran trade!
No that was the stupidest thing ever written about the Beltran trade.
Considering there was absolutely no chance whatsoever that Beltran would have been on the Mets this coming year or on into the future, there is no chance whatsoever for him to deliver any game winning hits are there?
Get real.
Have you been hitting the egg nog a little early Metsie? You don’t think a hitter can go 5-5 a walk into a losing clubhouse?
Carlos isn’t even a CFer anymore unless it’s out of necessity. The Pagan trade was for Ramirez, with Torres getting us to Nieuwenhauss and hopefully Puello.
Hey it can’t be any worse than GMJ can it?
Much higher chance of possibility that beltran would be on this years team than Wheeler though wasn’t there!
Beltran only got a 12.5 Mil per year contract from the cards!
Wheeler wouldn’t be here regardless! He’s a Minor League Lottery ticket at best!
But I forget you have that Miss Cleo FACT thing going for you!
Can a Hiiter go 5-5 and the team still lose?
Sure but it doesn’t mean that it’s HIS fault they lost!
Can a 30 Game winner win 80 games?
NO!
But a guy who goes 5-5 in a losing game certainly can when he isn’t the only one going 5-5!
Top 10 picks are the picks you get for “sucking” as you say. Those are the draft placements in which you can pick up guys unavailable to most of Major league baseball teams.
The 2nd round where Rollins was drafted just proves he was available to every single team in MLB. At least those who kept their draft choices, even the team that had the best record the year before. They didn’t “suck” did they?
Howard was available in the 5th round. That means the team with the best record the year before could have drafted him 4 times before Philly did. Hardly indicative of a player only they had a chance to draft because of their ineptitude the year before.
Werth and Ruiz weren’t even obtained in the draft. Victorinno was obtained in the rule 5 draft in 2004. We could have selected him. The year before Philly won 20 more games than we did. In fact of their 5 core players only Utley was selected before we drafted. We could have taken every other one. Unless we had given up our pick for Cedeno, Weathers, Zeile, Floyd, Cameron or Appier. I guess your going to now claim how it was wise of us to pass on the better players in favor of the soon to be salary dump.
The Phillies and Braves did become winners because of their drafting (and in the Braves case their IFA’s) Just not solely because of any players picked in the top 10. Most times they didn’t even draft there and many times when they did their players busted, got hurt or didn’t even sign with them.
Their top 10 picks weren’t what led the way, it was their overall picks. By top 10 your insinuating that a team must “suck for 20 years” before becoming good for an extended period and that is just not supported by the facts. The facts in the Braves case are that they drafted better talent AFTER their first playoff appearance then they did before and haven’t had a top 10 pick since 1991 and yet they’ve made the playoffs 16 times in 21 years. We, drafting behind them 9 times out of 10 have made it 3 times. They’ve had 2 losing seasons we’ve had 12.
Sure they’ll sign a free agent here and there but they don’t rely on a free agent being available at every position of need every off season. They go out ahead of time and develop them for themselves and they do a damn fine job of it. Their always thinking of what they want next year all season long and frequently trade for it, usually getting younger as they go.
It would be foolhardy to claim we’ve done a better job then either the Braves or the Phillies over the last 20 years and it would be factually untrue to claim that either team’s success came because of “sucking for 20 years.”
I accept that you no longer want to address this subject and I think that speaks volumns about your defense of you contention and I will refrain from from addressing the falsehood as long as you stop attempting to promote it.
Concession accepted.
Big wheels keep on turning Tags argument keeps on burning!
Did the Phillies have a chance to take him in the 1st? Why Not?
Did anyone after the 2nd pick in the 2nd round have a shot at Rollins who it would appear was not considered 1st round talent at the time?
If you pick at the top of EVERY ROUND you have a round up advantage over the competition!
While Rollins may have made it to the 2nd round he didn’t make it past the 2nd round!
maybe the phillies would have taken him if they actuaklly had a 1st round pick…
They didn’tbecause they did that EVIL DUMB thing you blamed Omar for doing! Signing a free agent!
They picked BEFORE the mets in every round except that given up 1st round!
They picked before the mets in EVERY round the year they goy Utley!
They picked before the mets in every year except the year they got hamels!
Only time they got someone by picking after we made our choice for that round!
When they made their rule 5 picks you love what was their order in that draft?
before or after us?
HUH?
See you willie I leave you to go round in circles!
I said they sucked and picked the cream of every round they were in!
And THAT is thre advantage they had when you compare them to us!
You want to compare them to some other team that picked before them be my guest but if you are going to compare them to us you are not going to get a HEAD START on the race and have if ignored because they sucked and started the race before we could!
This model is due to the Stadium issues the team is facing and MLB not doing it’s job and mediating a acceptable solution. The A’s don’t feel the team can be profitable with a mid-level payrol and a competitive team based on the facility they are in. They tried for many years and the cash didn’t come in. The Giants have a agreement in place that says no MLB team can move into specific areas one of which is San Jose. The A’s have a plan to get a new smaller stadium built in San Jose and just need the MLB to mediate a solution with the Giants. This was the same kind of issue with Baltimore and Washington. So in the mean time the A’s don’t want to add to payroll and keep churning the prospect pool.
exactly Gary, thank you. People weren’t going to see A’s games when they were dominating the regular season. They have exhausted that area, and cannot spend $ if they won’t make $… so the plan is simple: get a new deal that will attract fans to the area of the park, get a nice new stadium and then hope your core of players are good enough that you can build around them. See: Miami Marlins
Which is just PROOF POSITIVE that it is not WINNING that packs people into the stadium it is STARS which the A’s seem to get rid of the second they are identified!
This is why you fail when you think that the solutions to our problems can be solved by winning and not by having BIG NAME DRAWS like reyes to carry the team so they can KEEP their stars once identified!
Baseball is a STAR DRIVEN BUSINESS!
Not a Win driven business!
Wins help but only if you keep the stars that GOT YOU those wins!
Beane has never done that he always shipped them off for more future maybes and when the future success came on the few lottery tickets that hit he then shipped them off for more lottery tickets!
Something you most DEFINITY support doing here with the mets!
Metsie: I’m sorry but are you trying to argue that Jason Giambi, Miguel Tejada, Tim Hudson, Mark Mulder, Barry Zito, Johnny Damon, Jermaine Dye, David Justice, Eric Chavez were not worth the price of admission plus seeing a team that would average 94 wins a year over 7 years?
Listening to allyou lovers of everything Oaklsnd inclu lord sandy, it seems like your idea is that Oakland must move, and therefore lord sandy’s mets must move. By the way blind and obedient followers, the stadium doesn’t always work…. just look far, very far, like in your lor’ds new home Queens. Alderson and his boy in Oakland are both out of date…. The fans in both places know it. To bad the few of you don’t. How does it feel may I ask to revel having a loser of a team that ain’t gonna get better ???? just curious since allyour minscule group can do is try to make fun of real fans who want their team to ………win!!!!!
Sure they are stars. But if for any reason the team was on a pace to win 75 games no one would be turning out to watch them play in September. I firmly believe that WINS draw fans. Maybe guys like Gooden and Koufax and Ryan who struck out a ton of guys….maybe. Met fans would turn out in droves if they were on a pace to win 90 games.
The NBA is a star driven league.
Remember how last time we had this discussion even you admitted that signing Alex Rodriguez was not enough to sell tickets in Arlington?
Are you forgetting how it was pointed out to you how Oakland is a very small market with little baseball history?
Or are you going to explain to us how Toronto, with the best hitter in the league can only sell 45% of their tickets?
Funny but ticket sales went up when they got him but you seem to want to remember the conversation differnt than it was all to make it sound like I said or admitted something I did not!
Attendance went up when they signed A-Rod and it did not sustain because thats all they ever got!
One Star will increase attendance but it takes more than one star to maintain it!
They went up and dropped off again when they kept losing.
A star free agent sells a handful of tickets early on. Good teams sell the rest of the tickets plus the ones that only go on sale in late September.
Why are you launching such a defense of the A’s, are you a closet A’s fan? You should be concerned if they bring this failed strategy to Flushing and instead your applauding it. Ridiculous!
Ah, the old stand by. Metsie says he wants the team to be the Yankees (meanwhile not understanding how they got to be the way they are), but you ignore that.
Somehow saying building a playoff team will sell more tickets than signing a star is launching a defense of the A’s and makes me a closet A’s fan.
It couldn’t possibly be that Metsie is posting false statements trying to railroad the discussion. It couldn’t possibly be that the method you and he are advocating is the one we’ve been using and it put us where we are today.
It couldn’t possibly be that I am SICK AND GODDAMNED TIRED OF BEING THE CUBS OF THE EAST!
Maybe, perhaps I am sick and tired of this team being a punchline for hack sitcom writers.
Perhaps I want to one day see the Mets referred to on ESPN, or Deadspin, or Yahoo Sports, or NBC, or every other media outlet and not have to cringe.
Or I might to stop being the object of pity of all my friends and family that root for the Yankees.
Or I could want to believe that my team is not run by the same rejects that call into WFAN to make idiotic trade proposals.
No, it can’t be any of that. I have to be a closet A’s fan.
yeah my way is so rediculous compared to your support of LETS MAKE THE METS REALLY SUCK Oakland A’s Moneyball Bible Plan!
Then we can switch cities like Underwear the way the A’s will for the next 5 years when no one ANYWHERE goes to see them beause all their best players are on other MLB teams or in a Minor league affiliate that doesn’t play anywhere near their Home Stadium!
Yeah thats YOUR great plan moving forward!
LOL!
Out of the mouths of babes….Usually comes Puke like this!
Mets attendance is based on winning and the perception of winning:
Year MLB Finish NL Finish Attendance in 1000′s NL Average in 1000′s
2011 19 10 2.378 2,548
2010 20 10 2,559 2,555
2009 25 14 3,154 2,571
2008 7 4 4,042 2,755
2007 10 5 3,853 2,756
2006 2 1 3,379 2,598
2005 11 5 2,782 2,583
2004 22 12 2,318 2,512
2003 27 15 2,140 2,273
2002 19 11 2,804 2,308
2001 15 9 2,658 2,481
2000 5 4 2,820 2,480
1999 6 4 2,726 2,380
1998 9 6 2,287 2,401
1997 7 5 1,766 2,277
Attendance goes up when the team wins and trends down when it doesn’t. Reyes had a historical first half attendance went down. Plenty of STARS on the team in 2010 and attendance is almost half of 2008 and that is one year into a brand new stadium which should still add to attendance.
Mo Vaughn was a star. Vince Coleman was a star. Jason Bay was a star. Roberto Alomar was a star. Bobby Bonilla was a star. Moises Alou was a star. Eddie Murray was a star. Gary Sheffield was a star. None of these players INCREASED attendance, in fact they all DECREASED it.
Baseball is a star driven business my ass. If it was was we wouldn’t be having any money problems right now.
Winning is the only true driver of attendance and it usually increases the season after you win so maybe it’s really the expectation or hope of winning that sells but when that hope is extinguished it plumets. Do that once too often often to your fan base and you start losing chunks of your fanbase each time.
Up until 1990 perhaps all the way up to 2000 there was a phrase used to describe baseball in New York which almost defies logic. I’ve heard this phrase 5 million times since I became a fan of the sport but I haven’t heard it in a decade. The phrase was New York is a National League town.
This despite all the winning AND big stars of the most successful sports franchise in North America being located in the same place. What happened? Why haven’t you heard that phrase in over 10 years?
We’ve had just as many “stars” as the NYY in the last decade, we’ve just had almost all of them come here as stars and either burn brightly for 2-3 years or play like ****. The NYY have stars that play like stars for a long extended period of time and are managed in a competent fashion.
It is the cumulative effect of having a very reasonable chance of winning the whole thing every year that keeps attendance high in the Bronx. That comes from having a stable organization fans feel is competent. When the Jay Buhner type trades were a constant staple of the NYY off season/deadline manuever’s that wasn’t the case.
The NYY concentrated on building a TEAM. There is no denying that a certain chemistry existed on those mid to late late 90′s teams and a certain large part of that wasn’t even star driven at all. Knoblach, Brosius, Sojo, Jeff Nelson, Mike Stanton, Graham Lloyd and competent players who complimented each other. Their stars all mostly came from the farm or in trades from the farm. They didn’t arrive here at 33-40 years of age and consequently were here for an extended period of time.
Winning, followed up by reasonable expectations of winning and the fans faith in the competence of the FO continuing to provide those reasonable expectations year after year after year are what drives attendance. Not “stars.”
Our attendance level is down so low more because our fan base has shrunken to it’s lowest point since our inception. Those who have rooted for the home team in Ebbetts and the Polo Grounds are few and far between. The percentage of ticket buying baseball fans all grew up watching the NYY in October and only very occasionally seeing us. Anyone born after the midnight massacre has probably only seen the Mets in one World Season and only 4 playoff appearances. The NYY on the otherhand have been in the post season 16 out of the last 17 seasons winning it all 5 times and damn close another two.
Maybe 5% of all the kids in NY born in the last 20 years have even seen the Mets in the playoffs more than once and they’ve also seen collapses, off field buffoonery, players we’ve paid a fortune to that you can’t even give away, poor judgement by multiple FO’s in trades, prospect development and player positioning, injuries up the wazoo, Madoff and just general incompetence of the entire organization.
The “stars” we have continuously sought to bring in here have driven attendance, but not to us. They’ve driven it across the River.
“None of these players INCREASED attendance”
Compared to what the last remaining vestiges of the 86 Mets?
Or the 94 Mets when all those players were gone?
Attendance in 1993 with those guys you mentioned…1.8 Mil
Without in 94 1.1 Mil!
Your forget that the drop from those guys is being compared to 1990 and 91 where the stars were:
Gooden
Viola
Cone
Fernandez
Darling
Franco
Ojeda (as an RP)
Johnson
McReynolds
Strawberry
in 93 Gooden won 12 games and was pretty much done!
Anthony young blowing games like they were going out of style! (I was at the game where he broke the losing streak!_
But note how once thiose guys left how the Attendance dropped!
1994 we lost All those guys except Bonilla and Saberhagen!
Gooden was lost but not from the Roster Just the starting rotation!
And attendance dropped to a little over a Mil!
So you didn’t make a point just found a team with more ESTABLISHED stars in the previous seasons who lost it and managed to not drop as much BECAUSE of the newer stars only to see what would have happened (1.1 Mil) if we had not gotten them to draw fans to the stadium during that time!
I have to say you are the KING of stat manipulation via omission of facts!
yes attendance dropped but only because it was being compared to the last remaining stars from 86 who were declining and didn’t drop BECAUSE of the new stars we brought but maintained a higher drop than we would have had once all the stars were gone (as in 1994!)
Ticket sales go up the year after a good season, just like they go down after a bad one.
That’s why the ’69 Mets were out drawn by the ’70 Mets. 2.1 M compared to 2.6.
Same with our other World Champion. ’86 – 2.7, ’87 3.0M.
It was the stink of 1993 that caused the lower ticket sales in 1994 plus the mere fact that tickets were sold doesn’t mean anyone actually showed up to see the ’93 team.
They weren’t called “the worst team money could buy” because people people were flocking to see them.
yup, but Metsie and the other clowns will still claim its the stars. ya know, because everyone flocked to see Jose Reyes this year.
When attendacne goes down this year you will see hw many flocked to see Reyes won’t we?
I sugget to save yourself embarassment this time next year you had better go out and buy tickets to make sure that drop in attendance doesn’t happen!
Yeah now explain why attendance fell in 2011 after winning nine more games in 2010 than we did in 2009!
Explain why despite losing 9 more games in 2007 (vs 2006) we jumped to 4 Mil in attendance in 2008!
And please try to do it while staying in this decade if you can!
oh jeez Metsie, now you’re just digging, man. seriously. you’re looking for every little thing to support your argument. are you serious with this? this even has to be explained to you? but then again look who it is I’m dealing with. I shouldn’t be surprised.
In 2006 they won 97 games and were one hit away from the world series. In 2007, they won 88 and despite the collapse, expectations were still pretty high going into the ’08 season. In 2009 they won 70 games. SEV-EN-TY. how high were expectations going into the 2010 season? In 2010 they won 79. how high were expectations going into this past season? Expectations are highest the year after a winning season, or making the playoffs, and highest when winning the world series. To increase attendance the Mets need to heavily out-perform their expectations. It has nothing to do with how many stars are on the field. people don’t go to see stars despite what you think, they go to see winners.
come on man, I know you have the baseball IQ of a nine year old, but you have to be smarter than this.
Oh who is grasping for straws here!
You say winning improves attendance and then excuse examples where it didn’t?
I noted facts and all you offer is excuse making! Right in line with the Pro Sandy posts isn’t it?
wait, what? Metsie, are you saying that attendance was supposed to go up because they won 79 games as opposed to 70? LOL. oh man your mental situation is worse than I thought.
attendance went down because they had two sub-80 win seasons in a row dude. its that simple.
Well your the one who insists that winning means more attendance…Did that happen?
NO!
So who is the one who has mental issues here the one who says winning more does NOT translate to more wins in every case or the one who does think that?
And to see the latter get a mirror dude that is if in your mental state they don’t just pad tha walls and remove all unbreakables!
You will be ignored from now on because it is obvious you are not really interested in FACTS just calling those with them crazy!
winning SEASONS, you friggin tard.
Yeah keep going and digging that grave my fpoor immature friend!
Ok try this…
2000 2.8 Mil attendance made the WS!
2001 Attendance went down 2.6 Mil and they had a winning season!
Poof goes the bottle feeders attempt at calling a sane man a retard!
You need a mirror to find him dude!
Explain to me again Metsie how we managed to fit in all those fans that came out to see Jason Bay last year?
Tell me how we managed to fit in all those that came to see K-Rod?
How many walk ups did we have on days Santana pitched?
The big signing/big star approach here has done nothing but drive attendance to the Bronx because our fan base has shrunk every year due to incompetence and gross mismanagement.
Tell me when I have ever said Jason Bay was a Star please!
And tell me what would 2010 attendance have been if we had not signed him?
Do you have a number? Of course not!
Jason Bay would absolutely qualify with your “you gotta spend on big stars” monologues to bring in the attendance.
He was imported over here remember? He is among the highest paid Mets isn’t he? Who makes more, only one guy. Santana.
Oh I get it. Just keep bringing in big stars until you get one right and then Metsie can point to him and say SEEEEEEEEEE! It’s the big star that brought in all these people.
Sorry Metsie you can’t look at only the successful examples of monkeyball, you have to look at ALL the examples of it. Coleman, Appier, Vaughn, Alomar, Burnitz, Bay,
Alou, Wagner, Cedeno, Bonilla and Weathers as well.
“Oh I get it. Just keep bringing in big stars until you get one right and then Metsie can point to him and say SEEEEEEEEEE! It’s the big star that brought in all these people.”
LOLOLOL….spot on, Agee.
Tag – Hey if you thought Jason Bay was a star thats your problem not mine!
I said then Bay was nothing more than a straw reach and the play should have been to go all out on Halladay!
We had Mejia and Holt to use as trade bait and quite a few others as well!
neither had been hurt yet but some FACTION of Met Fans who thought Baseball America was the be all and end all of UNTOUCHABLES would not get onboard for a deal like that!
So don’t talk to me about the Bay deal I have been quite clear that Bay was not worth what he got and not the move we needed in 2010!
You want to blame Omar for that be my guest but many of you thopught we needed a big bat to replace Beltran that year instead of a Pitcher to help Santana since I knew Pelfrey is a poor man’s version of a Number 2 Pitcher!
Simple. What’s left of the shrinking Met fan base had no hope.
No one’s getting juiced up to buy tickets in January to watch Bay, Perez, Castillo or perhaps see Beltran if his knee holds up. That was the situation last off season.
That’s the danger in artificially raising the fans hope every year and finishing out the season with Sullivan, Arias, Feliciano, Santos, Hessman, and Perez or bringing in a GMJ or Jacobs to back up or start a season cause you can’t even provide a better alternative than that.
Oh please dude…
What about playing meaningful games for three CONSECUTIVE Septembers artificially raising fans hope?
Players got hurt thats all!
But what they did before that was REAL not artificial!
Did we build a World Series team? NO!
But then again I’m the one who said that if they went and got an Ace to help the rotation they might have become one!
And lets face facts here there is a whole lot more ARTIFICIAL HOPE two years from now with Wheeler than what actually happened from 2006-2009!
If not for Injuries we might have had four consecutive years of meaningful septembers and competitive seasons!
LOL Joe!
I knew who was going to have an issue with this the minute I saw beane’s name!
As often as jessup says he is not a fan of Moneyball he is always the first to come to it’s defense!
All Beane has done is buiold a very impressive Baseball America list!
Which has translated into ZERO WS titles since 1995!
Just goes to show how valuable having a top BA list of prospects gets you!
“All Beane has done is buiold a very impressive Baseball America list! Which has translated into ZERO WS titles since 1995!”
Out of curiousity, the Mets line of thinking in the past has translated to… how many WS titles again?
What does that have to do with methodology?
How many have the free spending Yankees won since 1995 huh?
You see this isn’t a debate on how GREAT the mets were built it is a debate about the PHILOSOPHY of building that works best!
You like MONEYBALL but it has never led to more playoffs or WS titles than Spending has!
Yankees have 3 times the Playoff appearances as the A’s do and an infinite amount of more WS titles by not getting RID of stars but acquiring them!
Note the Yankees spend the MOST of any team in baseball and have yet to lose money in any season or need to change venues to draw enough fans to pay the bills!
Something lost on you whenever you say we need to cut payroll in order to compete!
So you want the Mets to be the Yankees?
At some point YES!
I want them to keep their HOMEGROWN stars like the Yanks did with Jeter, Posada and Pettite!
I want them to go after top Pitching Aces when they are available in FA!
I want them to make trades for those stars who can ensure a competitive season has enough juice to go all the way!
Put plainly I would MUCH RATHER they be more like the Yankees than the A’s when all is said and done!
Cause lets face facts here…Oakland is only 3 years behind us on the WS futility timeline!
Their last WS was three years after out last WS in 86!
So the A’s have not been any better at building a team than we have!
And all those playoffs you guys tout of theirs has never led to a jump in attendance has it?
So what does that tell you about WINS and Attendance?
If they would have kept thier stars maybe they would have the attendance they don’t that is forcing them to change locations!
And maybe if we LEARN from their Mistakes we will still have a Met franchise in NY to care about!
Because lest we forget when we hope the WIlpons sell because we aren’t going to see them, If we don’t draw more than some other location could then there is no reason to stay here is there?
And then YOU TOO will be forced to be a Yankee fan because they are the only NY team to root for!
“I want them to keep their HOMEGROWN stars like the Yanks did with Jeter, Posada and Pettite!”
So it is your belief that if the Yanks didn’t win WS titles with young Jeter and young Posada that they’d still be yankees?
By the way, 2004-2006 is a funny way of “keeping their homegrown stars” (See: Andy Pettitte not on the Yankees)
Yep they would still be Yankees because if they had not won but those guys did what they did they would still be STARS!
And if they didn’t they would NOT be stars and the yankees would replace them WITH Stars!
Or some other kid that would become one!
Anyway you slice it the yankees have KEPT their stars and never ran a purge the way Beane has twice already (maybe more!)
Have you ever heard of George Steinbrenner?
How he basically got kicked out of baseball and only then did the Yankees actually produce their home grown stars?
Do you think it was a coincidence that they made the playoffs for the first time in over a decade after Gene Michael was able to focus on their farm system?
Yep heard of him…
You do realize that the Yankees won World Series titles long before their current run and before he got banned don’t you?
OR were you still breast feeding then?
You mean before free agency? When teams had to be built? When if you wanted a player from outside your organization, you had to have the pieces to trade for him?
Is that what you are referring to?
Running from the truth with something nonsequitor as usual for you when you get caught bluffing your way through an argument!
You know what I mean, Everyone else knows what I mean, Only your are stupid enough to be confused here!
So, I’m wrong? The championships you refer to did not occur before free agency became a major component of team building?
Yes your WRONG because none of that has anything to do with today or what Steinbrenner won!
Free Agency DOES Exist and Steinbrenner won a few of them without needing to have a fire sale and collecting 6000 rookies hoping 3 or 4 would turn out to be good!
So get off your Diversionary kick please and come back to the topic or simply run from it as you are trying to do by being silent and letting people who can stay on topic without going off on idiotic tangents has this out!
And I should point out we have been to more WS since than the A’s have since 1989!
Funny you seem to forget that when you talk about their success compared to our failures!
you said WS titles Metsie. Don’t change your criteria just to make the Mets look good.
I didnt change anything I said just ADDED appearances to the discussion!
Mets have more WS appearances than the A’s do!
Which is much further along than just making the playoffs!
Niether has won a WS title in 22 years!
Both have over 20 years of futility in their build philosophy!
But the Met Philosophy has had the chance to at least PLAY for one!
Something the A’s philosophy has not given them!
I’d rather they were the Yankees than the Oakland A’s. How is that even a question.?? You want the Mets to be the Oakland A’s instead of the Yankees??? The comments on this site have become a laughing stock.
Fianlly, you got it jessup….. What is wrong with your team winning???? You and donal and co actually endorse or love losing? Why?
“All Beane has done is buiold a very impressive Baseball America list!”
The A’s as an organization were ranked 28th over all by BA back in March.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/organization-talent-rankings/2011/2611472.html
But hey, not like it is the first time you spout demonstrably false claims to support your manifestos.
Yep which is why he just traded Gio for more guys to increase his rank on BA’s list!
You really ought to catch up to current events dude!
But at the time Beane traded Haren and Swisher, the players he got six of the nine were in top 100. Yes now it shows they suck ass, which is the lesson learned, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
not really a mets story is it
Not yet as Sandy is still in the Firesale portion of the Moneyball Implementation!
But just wait until Harbey or Familia come up and have some success but not enough to win anything because of the collection of regular position scrubs we have replaced all our stars with to get payroll down to small market standards and Sandy decides to trade Harvey or Familia off to get more lottery tickets 3-4 years away from being traded off again for more maybes IF he is lucky!
In 4 years time we might as well be called the Oakland Mets!
if you want the team to spend money they do not have, i am not sure what to tell you dude.
again, moneyball is about spending efficiently. if you have exmaples of cheap teams that made bad decisions, fine. if you want the mets to spend more, i guess that is smart of you, but the mets dont have money. the mets should make efficient moves and build from within. if you dont like the moves the mets have made, then speak to those moves directty. like for instance if you wanted the mets to sign reyes, thats too bad, i can explain to you why they didnt and couldnt. fif you want the mets to sign high priced players that play hard and with grit or whatever, and you want the team to ignore the math of what actually determined who is good, then good luck with that.
obviously joe and some others here have some sort of weird resentment of rational analysis and presumably want players that are awful but try hard or look handsome, i have no idea what the criticisms are about.
Yes we need more smart and efficient decisions like Paulino, Hu, Bonser, Carrasco, James, Rauch, Emaus, Baxter, Torres. Rational decisions like this will lead to more post seasons for the Mets. I could have done a lot more with 3.5mil than give it to a bum like Rauch. What you call logical and rational I call just another stupid move by a GM who may rack up the worst winning percentage in the last 20 years before he’[s done.
All of those players combined still can’t do as much damage as Bay and Perez.
Seriously, to try and call out fill ins and disposable bench players as some kind of proff shows how you either are willingly misrepresenting facts or don’t understand how a baseball team works.
Are you one of the ones who dismisses the idea that there are financial constraints? That buying a high priced free agent is the cure to it all? That fixing over a decade of futility takes less than a full off season?
those moves have not hurt the mets, yet, bub. a bit early to call them stupid.
Thank you!!! This whole idea of waiting for 2014 for the Mets to win the division based on Wheeler and Nimmo is preposterous and if you believe that I got a bridge to sell you. I’m tired of hearing about this franchise is saved by this moneyball crap which has nothing to do with what’s really going on. THE METS ARE BROKE!!!! THIS IS NOT A REBUILD ITS A FIRE SALE!!!! SAME AS THE A’S!!!!
Raylo: Can I ask you a question… In 2001, 2002 were you looking to the future when Jose Reyes would be a Met? In 2003 and 2004 were you thinking “I can’t wait to see what this kid David Wright can do for us” “When they get here, we’re gonna turn it around!”
Did you ever, ever think like that?
No because then we were thinking about how to improve the team we currently had to get to he WS again .
Most Met fans live in the present and deal with the future when it arrives!
We buy tickets and pay the Met bills based on what they will do THIS YEAR when we go to see them with the tickets we bought!
We don’t buy tickets based on what will happen 4 years from now!
We don’t sit there and read BA to be optimistic about what might happen we look to hope for good in what IS happening!
We want EVERY YEAR to be a good one not sit through 5 years of bad to get one good one only to see it traded away for another promise 5 years down the line like Beane and the A’s do!
Wait a second Metsie
Are you telling me that you don’t think Mets fans were looking forward to the day that Jose Reyes and David Wright would come up to the big leagues?
Nope not until maybe they hit AA or AAA.
And even then it wasn’t like they were interested in purging a team waiting for the day they arrived!
We were happy to hear we had them but no one sat there saying we should not try until they got here!
We had just made it to the WS and our only problem was we were likely not going to repeat!
“Most Met fans live in the present and deal with the future when it arrives!”
The problem is, so did a lot of executives.
And that’s why no one has ever heard of Alex Escobar and had no expectations for him.
Beane chases the rainbow because he has to. While our situation may not be as endemic or hopeless as that of the A’s, it is bad and we are hamstrung over bad and broke ownership. We are also in a rebuilding mode, and i highly prefer Alderson & Co leading that effort than i did Omar. We shall see what happens. Trading successfully always needs a lotta of the ‘luck’ (good) quotient. Let’s hope we have that in abundance, going forward.
If he kept a core of his homegrown stars to keep fans coming to the park he wouldn’t be forced to have a sell off every 5 years which discourages attendance because they lost hope of seeing their best players for something 4 or 5 years later!
Worth noting that Oakland attendance went up 2 years after they let Giambi walk.
It didn’t drop below 2mil until the 06 season. Guess up until 2006, they didn’t mind huh? What was their record from 07 on? But it’s not about winning right?
I guess 2 Mil of attendance seems like a lot to you eh?
Got news for you we drew that many this year and it was our worst year since 2003!
Si I guess going up to 2Mil in attendance might be considered an accomplishment for someone who the majority of their best players and biggest hope are in the MiLs!
If their best players and players who gave hope to their fans were actually on the <LB squad we wouldn't be sitting here talking about an increase to 2Mil attendance!
Lets review shall we?
We had no stars in 2004 and drew 2.3 Mil
We signed stars from 2005-2008 5 or 6 of them and we went from 2.3 to 4 Mil in attendance!
Even though we lost more games than in 2006 when we made the playoffs!
Funny how that worked out didn't it?
2They increased to 2 Mil in attendance? WHoopee! I bet the sold out all their MiL games though because thats where all their STARS played! LOL
Metsie: All this comment proves is that you do not understand the city of Oakland at all. I’m not saying 2mil is something to brag about. I’m saying, the team had stars (even though you said they didn’t) but they couldn’t draw even with 100+ win years. Thus, no strong revenue stream, thus they are trying to move.
And all your comment proves is that you don’t gt the relationship between Season Tickets and faith in the franchise!
Example: Mets won in 69 out of nowhere. Attendance only ticked up 520K, Slowly tailed off until 73 who had a team that no one expected to go to the WS but did (lost).
Attendance in 73 was 1.9M Attendance in 74 1.7M.
Because despite making it to the World Series no one really believed they belonged there and no one really felt like it was a team that was going to repeat!
While Wins the year previous may influence and convince some fans that the team is on the right track and inspire them to buy Tickets you can also add HOPE and FAITH by going and getting a player who makes the fans think they will be a much better team with that player! Even if they had a horrible record the year previous!
Hope translates to ticket sales and attendance no matter how that hope is achieved!
Acquiring stars will give hope and Winning gives hope because when you win it might just be an indication that you HAVE the stars you didn’t know you had that will make next season a hopeful one!
And what I would like you folks to start thinking about is this…
If low Attendance is the leading cause of the financial problems, and you really believe WINNING is the solution there then how is what we are doing actually helping this team solve the financial problems?
How can you say this dismantling is leading to more wins to get that attendance back?
I know you think it is helping the future but wouldn’t making some moves to IMPROVE positions that play everyday instead of downgrading SS, CF and RF in the name of improving the Bull Pen with guys who all lost their Pen jobs someplace else?
I have not seen one move that improves the hope for next year! Only ONE move that improves the hope maybe 2 or 3 years from now, and that means another drop in attendance leading to the excuse we must then dump Wright because of financial issues!
If you really believe winning solves the problems then why support the moves that are counterproductive to winning and merely taking a checkbook analysis toward team building?
Attendance will go down, Wright will be gone and those one or two moves you think we made to make us winners will not win games because we went from having a good assortment of everyday starters needing Starting rotation help to a Starting Rotation who would be good but needs an entire team of players around them because they are surrounded by cheap scrubs!!
Funny how that seems to paralell the way the Wilpons work their finances doesn’t it?
I owe Paul 40 Mil I will borrow it from Peter and Sell Mary on Ebay to pay Peter back!
We are selling off EVERYDAY players in favor of buying a Inning of RP and collecting starters and by the time those pitchers are ready there will be no one left to give them the run support they need to win games and increase attendance!
We are borrowing from Peter and selling off Mary to pay Paul and paying Paul just means we have no money left to fix the harder task of having a good everyday lineup!
Better would be to go after or at least keep ONE or TWO players that might give people hope and keep or improve attendance so that someone might be inspired to go and reduce the losses that way then to just decrease the attendance and hope you win enough to make the cut not cost you more than you saved!
I agree with you Metsie that hope is the currency in the sports business that goodwill is in ordinary businesses. I’ve written that many times here, but the downside to hope driving your ticket sales every year is without it ever translating, eventually it just goes the way of the empty promise.
You cannot constantly raise your customers expectations and then fail to deliver 5 times out of 6 or your going to lose your customers.
It’s the constant cycle of big expectations followed by listless results and big disappointment that has resulted in nearly every single kid born in NY in the last 20 years becoming a NYY fan.
You monkeyballers prove it everytime you mention 2007 and 2008 as being among our best seasons. The sad part of it is that your right. A marginally better than .500 team coming up 1 game short on the last day of the season two years in a row are with out a doubt among the very best seasons we have had in the last quarter of a century. Surpassed only by the tail end of a serious rebuild that was the mid 80′s Mets, 99 and ’00 and 2006 and the really sad thing is we have not only been out of it 18 times in 25 years, we’ve done it with the Leagues highest payroll while continually shooting ourselves in the foot.
“You cannot constantly raise your customers expectations and then fail to deliver 5 times”
Now take what you believe is the problem over the last 25 years and tell me why hope that won’t be seen for another 2 years is STILL good enough to you despite all the FUTURE HOPE you have seen over the course of those 25 years with guys like Wilson and Milledge and Abner etc etc…
Hope 3 years from now does nothing for ticket sales NOW!
And no ticket sales now means even more talent purging in the name of saving money to the point that there will be no talent to make that future HOPE succeed!
I’m all for acquiring and trading for future hope but you don’t have to trade away your best players to get them! THAT is the problem here Sandy is being a lazy bastard and instead of giving away quantity and working these deals he is merely dangling his best players and trading now for later! But by the time the later comes the problems will all be in the vaccum he is creating to get that future hope!
Remember when we did the same thing during those 25 years?
Remember how Generation K was suppose to solve all our issues?
They were also FUTURE HOPE!
Did it change anything? Did it work? Did we win when that FUTURE because the present?
And what you still refuse to admit is that MONKEYBALL got us into the playoffs! Building from within did not! Only in 69 can you even say such a thing because there was no Free Agency then to use!
But 1986 was all about the STARS we acquired that helped those young FUTURE HOPES to be winning players!
Does Dwight Gooden win 17 games without Hernandez, and Foster driving in over 80 Runs? Does Strawberry get Pitches to hit without them and eventually Carter to protect him?
Do the 86 Mets win the WS without guys like Ojeda? Does Ojeda win that many games without those big bats not named Strawberry?
No one argues that developing Kids is not important but it is not the ONLY thing that needs to be done to win!
A’s are proof of that! Even the Phillies and Braves knew that!
Having Kids is not enough! And using the stars you need for those kids to succeed to get those kids is just shifting the missing peices from the experienced to the youth side!
You need BOTH!
You need kids to save the mo ney and the vet Stars to lead them to show them how to win in the MLB!
By the time the Wheelers and Harvey and Familia come up there will be no one there to make their well pitched games into ticks on the Win column!
And then all the HOPE you put on them will be UNREALIZED and NON EXISTANT!
Which then leads you to trade them off for more future hope that will result in nothing because your too busy building some DREAMLIKE FUTURE instead of what works, Building the best team you can EVERY YEAR so Attendance stays at least on a profit making average and you can afford to go get that guy who makes thise kids be all they can be!
Wheeler won’t add any wins to the 2012 or 2013 seasons!
Especially not if he has no one behind him who can field or hit!
See Dickey if you want proof that good pitching doesn’t mean lots of wins!
It’s a team sport and despite being the biggest hope in the world if the team sucks so do you!
Generation K proved that didn’t they?
“By the time the Wheelers and Harvey and Familia come up there will be no one there to make their well pitched games into ticks on the Win column!”
how do ya figure?
Prove there will be first!
I am done offering proof to those who don’t back up thier side so you prove there will be with names and numbers if at all possible if not I’m just not inclined to entertain some kids who is on Mom’s computer without permission and do his bidding!
You’re asking Chris here to “prove” or disprove your statamenet:
“By the time the Wheelers and Harvey and Familia come up there will be no one there to make their well pitched games into ticks on the Win column!”
How do you expect somebody to PROVE something that will happen in 2014? Do you have a crystal ball? Did you know after the 2008 season that the 2011 season would happen?
Metsie you wouldn’t even back up your statement about the Phills and Braves being built all from top 5 – top pen picks culled from years of losing. The best you could do was come up with 3 guys. I gave you Chipper, you added Avery and Smoltz. The rest of them were not top 5 – top 10 picks and even Smoltz (a 22nd rounder drafted by Detroit and traded for Alexander who was acquired in a trade for top 10 pick) is a bit of a reach.
Avery himself only pitched 12 innings in the post season the first time the Braves won it and went 7-13 in the regular season so that one’s a little suspect too.
And the Phillies? Not one single top 5- top 10 pick did anything or got them anything that did do something so talk about not backing up your statements.
How about this doozie? Joan Payson was somehow in charge during the midnight massacre when in fact she died two years before hand.
I constantly ask you for proof and you get all defensive and then start coming up with 13th rounders (like Mike Stanton) to prove your point about top 5 – top 10 picks making the difference or guys they signed as free agents as if only teams that qualify for top 5 – top 10 picks are eligable to sign free agents.
Please.
Jessup -He is the one presenting thier success as fact. Facts that have yet to occurr! Let him prove his facts and if he can’t admit they are just HOPES no t PROMISES!
TAG _ I Most definitly DID prove my point on the Phillies and Braves!
I pointed out all the draft picks that got them to the WS in 91…
You are the ONLY one who bowed out of that conversation when asked to provide a list of the picks that the Braves made that were not top 5 picks that helped them get there!
You just ignored the question because you KNOW the guys you were counting in your 25 year pile of crap were all taken in the top 5 or traded after being taken there for someone else like Smoltz!
SO I proved my point and you abandoned yours!
Because I showed WHY they had those picks and if you had continued to use them in your point all you would have accomplished was making MY point because they were all taken TOP5 of the cream of the crop!
Well I’m done with all of you!
no sense in talking or discussing with stone headed dopes who can’t seem to even remember conversations from 5 days ago properly!
I will not be posting much anymore I will let all you rose colored kool aid drinkers to have total run of the looney bin!
I will drop in from time to time to point out where you all went wrong!
And there to laugh at the end of next season when this IMPROVED TEAM loses more games than they did last year!
Enjoy!
I provided a list of over two dozen names. Guys drafted well after 1-10 in rounds from 2-43 as well as plenty of IFA’s and even a few undrafted domestic amateurs.
You provided guys drafted in the 13th round as if no one else in MLB had a chance to draft them and even included guys who were drafted and didn’t even sign with the Phillies, or did sign and were traded for one terrible year by someone else as if that helped them win a World Series.
In that thread? Show the link please!
And if not in that thread and your referring to your original list please not how many were part of their 1991 WS run!
Not one single Phillie was drafted in the top 10 rounds who did anything remotely positive to help them win a World Series. Not one.
The Phillies didn’t trade a top 10 pick for anyone who did one single thing to help them win the Series.
The Phillies did not win “by sucking for 20 years” They won by developing a core of young talented players all about the same age who came up together. Rollins 2nd rnd, Utley 1st rnd #15, Hamels 1st rnd #18, Howard 5th round, and getting terrific play from a rule 5 (Victorino) a non tender (Werth) and an IFA (Ruiz) Then by trading farm system depth to fill in where they didn’t provide their own solution. Lidge, Blanton, Lee, Halliday, Oswalt, Pence.
Every single player they got was available to every single team at least once except Utley and Hamels and they were available to half of all teams.
Their players came from the farm, were acquired by the farm or by sources other than free agency. In fact the same thing that didn’t work for us (free agency) is the same thing that didn’t work for them (Ibanez)
It is a complete fallacy that the Phillies won because they lost. They won because they stopped signing free agents and started developing their farm.
* meant top 10 PICKS, not rounds.
Metsie I can’t find it at the moment but I’ll take a look around when I get a chance. Included names like IFA’s Javy Lopez, Rafeal Furcal, guys drafted in the 4th round like David Justice, Ron Gant, 2nd rounders like Freeman and McCann, 43rd rounder like Marcus Giles, 27th rounder like Mark lemke, undrafted free agents like Kerry lightenberg, free agents like Greg Maddox and Brian Jordan.
Tons of guys who were NOT top 10 picks in the Major league draft.
Guys ANY team (even the defensing world champs) could have gotten.
I’ll look for it later.
Funny isn’t it how we went from talking about the braves to the Philiies isn’t it?
Rollins was a top 2 pick in the 2nd, their first pick because they traded away their first rounder like Omar did because they are SOOOOOOO Smart!
I mean funny how the SMART DRAFTERS aka the Phillies did when they had pick of the litter and top 10 selection in the draft isn’t it?
That should pretty much take care of both your SMART DRAFTERS since you conceeded the Braves by omission and the Phillies got a big pile of nothing and screwed the pooch on all their top 10 picks
These are YOUR genius Evaluators!
All because they lucked out on Rollins getting passed for a round, Howard getting passed on for 8 rounds (both top 2 picks of their round) and Utley being taken before we could and us thinking Kazmir was a better pitcher than Hamels which was true before Kazmir got hurt!
Giles, McCann, Furcal and Lopez were not part of the 91 success!
Gant and justice were.
Freeman did nothing to help them in 91 he was 1-0
Lempke hit .234 that year
I mean easy to come up with names like Freeman and Lempke and if thats the barometer then Pelfrey was as much a success story as them in regards to 2006!
Really pulling for straws and most of the guys you listed had nothing to do with them getting to the WS in 91!
When it ALL started!
I didn’t concede anything anything. Besides you pretty much conceeded your point from the Braves and Phillies being built by top 10 picks to top 10 picks in every round.
You even claimed that a 13th round pick is “proof” of your theory that the Braves finally won because they “sucked for 20 years”
The reality is that ANY TEAM could have selected that player. Any team at all. If a team had gone 162-0, swept the playoffs and won the World Series THEY could have selected that player that YOU offered as proof of your theory (after quite a bit of arm twisting I might add)
Now if a player, drafted in the 13th round could have conceivably been drafted Twelve times by a team that went undefeated the prior season, including the playoffs how does that reconcile your contention that Atlanta got that player by “sucking?”
Is your definition of sucking going 162-0?
Previously you’ve used free agents that Philly signed to support your theory that they are the “Proof.” But the reality is ANY TEAM could have signed those free agents. Any team at all, even the mythical undefeated defending World Champions.
You haven’t proved your assertion, but you have disproved it, just as you did with the same assertion in regard to the NYY.
You mean anyteam who picked before the Braves could have…
You conceeded the braves to me by mentioning a bunch of guys who had nothing to do with 91 WS appearance and only came up with three that were even there!
You conceeded the Phillies point by showing how with all those top5 picks they had they didn’t get a thing from it!
OK, so now you only want to talk about the ’91 Braves, not the 1991-2011 Braves.
OK.
C Greg Olson, signed as a free agent Could have signed with ANY team
1B Sid Bream, signed as a free agent Could have signed with ANY team.
2B Jeff Treadway, traded for cash Could have signed with ANY team.
SS Rafeal Belliard signed as a free agent Could have signed with ANY team.
3B Terry Pendleton signed as a free agent Could have signed with ANY team.
LF Lonnie Smith, signed as a free agent Could have signed with ANY team.
CF Ron Gant, 4th rnd, # 100 Could have been drafted by ANY team.
RF David Justice 4th rnd # 94 Could have been drafted by ANY team.
RESERVES
OF Otis Nixon Trade for prospect drafted 2nd round #33 ANY team could have drafted
MI Jeff Blauser 1st rnd 5th pick SUPPORTS METSIE’S THEORY
MI Mark Lemke 27th rnd # 677 Could have been drafted by ANY team.
1B Brian Hunter 8th rnd # 184 Could have been drafted by ANY team.
C Mike Heath, signed as a free agent Could have been signed by ANY team.
OF Deion Sanders, signed as a free agent Could have been signed by ANY team.
UT Tommy Greg, trade for Ken Oberkfell an undrafted amateur who was available to ANY
team.
PITCHERS
SP Tom Glavine, 2nd rnd # 47 Could have been drafted by ANY team.
SP Charlie Leibrandt trade for 10th and 11th rounder Any team could have traded for him.
SP John Smoltz trade of Doyle Alexander who was acquired by a 1st rounder # 9 QUALIFIES
SP Steve Avery 1st rnd #3 QUALIFIES
CL Juan Berenguer, signed as a free agent Could have been signed by ANY team
RP Mike Stanton, drafted 13th rnd # 334 Could have been drafted by ANY team.
RP Kent Merker, drafted 1st rnd # 5 QUALIFIES
RP Marvin Freeman, trade for an undrafted free agent. Could have been obtained by ANY
team.
RP Jim Clancy, trade for an undrafted amateur free agent and a career minor leaguer.
OK, now that I’ve done Metsie’s work in support of this theory and after having the goal posts moved does the results hold water?
1 SP Smoltz (drafted in the 22nd rnd by Detroit, then traded for Doyle Alexander who was obtained by a former Brave #1 pick # 9 Duane Ward. Barely qualifies on a number of front’s chiefly in that any team could have selected Smoltz at least 21 times in the draft but he was traded for a guy obtained by a top 10 pick so I guess he does Qualify.
1 SP Steve Avery 1st rnd. #3 Qualifier for ’91 but only had two more good years, three bad ones before drifting around.
1 RP Kent Merker 1st rnd.# 5, 50 games, 73 IP 2.58 ERA 7th inning guy alright. Merker had one more good year with Atlanta, one avg one and one spotty one before drifting around.
1 2B Jeff Treadway 1st rnd # 5 One half of a platoon at 2B, 300 AB’s on the year. Played one more year for Atlanta and very little after. Qualifies but……
4 guys (out of 25) 2 SP’S, a 7th inning guy, one half of a platoon. Two of the guys gone at the end of the following year, one of them lasted another 3 years and was cut loose after pitching 2.1 innings total in the 95 WS Championship year and the last guy pitched another 5 years two of which were real good, three weren’t but he did hang on and help with 12 IP in the post season in ’95 after going 7-13 4.67.
I don’t know. I’d call these guys (other than Smoltz) more scene setters than some kind of hard core nucleus and even Smoltz was available to every single team in MLB at least 21 times in the draft and then was only traded for a guy who was obtained with a top 10 pick.
You call it. Were the Atlanta Braves built on top 10 picks obtained by “sucking for 20 years” as Metsie contends? I’m not convinced.
Now onto the Phillies Metsie’s other contention that were built by top 10 picks obtained by “sucking for 20 years” despite the fact that not one single player on the Phillies was a top 10 pick, nor were any obtained by a top 10 pick.
Maybe Metsie would be so kind as to “prove” this theory of his.
“OK, so now you only want to talk about the ’91 Braves, not the 1991-2011 Braves. ”
Excuse me but someone around here seemed to suggest their drafting made them successful, Well other than WINNING a WS there is no greater success than GOING to one!
And they went to one in 91!
That means what they did to GET to 91 is way more important than anything that happened after that now doesn’t it?
How could what they did AFTER they were already successful make them succuessful? Thats like saying Standing after walking a mile HELPED you walk a mile isn’t it?
What do you mean what they did after wasn’t important? That’s what made them a dynasty for half a decade. The guys that came after. True many of those guys were already in the system like Chipper who to me is the only tried and true 100% example of your theory.
Look at it like this. If the 2006 Mets had followed up in short order with the kind of quality the Braves followed up their 1991 WS team with WE could have been on for a dynasty.
We didn’t follow La Duca with a Javy Lopez or a Shawn Green with a Ryan Klesko or an Andruw Jones or Jermaine Dye or a Jason Schmidt or Kevin Millwood to slot into the rotation.
What came after was much much MORE important. Otherwise they may have been like us, one and done.
What ******* good is that.
Agee you have successfully made Metsie your b*tch today. I love it. He’ll be crying himself to sleep tonight cuddling with his Bieber doll.
And you go right on believing that and in Santa my little child!
So how many season tickets and full season have you bought in your life sonny.?
It wasn’t important Tagg because THEY WERE ALREADY SUCCESSFUL!
Happened long before those picks!
They went to the WS in 1991!
And it was those top 10 picks that got them there!
Four guys doesn’t make a team Metsie and the two that did do the heavy lifting on that team are more or less dubious. Smoltz was available to every single team in MLB 21 times and wasn’t traded for by a top 10 pick, he was traded for a guy who was himself obtained for a top 10 pick.
Kind of like Henry the 8th getting a Papal dispensation to marry his sister in law.
Avery is a full qualifier but really only had 3 good years with the Braves, although he did give them two ’95 post season games of 6 IP each in their championship season.
Merker a 7th inning/spot starter. Counts but isn’t like a Glavine or Maddox.
Blauser 11 years. Didn’t exactly do any heavy lifting and wasn’t a great hitter or fielder but he was competent and durable and continuity counts.
All in all is it enough to make the claim that it was the top 10 picks obtained for “sucking for 20 years” that was the cause of the Braves beginning their decade and a half of dominance? I don’t think the evidence supports that. I’d go with it was a kick start to the beginning of their run. The reason? No. Probably 3rd on the list.
“Four guys…”
YAWN!
Yet thats what you say made the Phillies such great drafters!
“Four guys” Yet thats how many the Braves drafted to get to the WS!
Spin Spin Spin!
And funny thats how many the Yankees drafted too!
Oh Wait they got one more if you include Williams!
Yep keep Diggin dude!
No that was just 4 guys that fit your criteria. One of them wasn’t even a Brave draftee either but there were other draftee’s on the team that made a HUGE difference. Remember Gant and Justice? Lemke, Hunter and Glavine? Stanton and Wholers? Lot more than 4.
At least 9 and loads more ready to come up.
You keep forgetting that the top 10 was YOUR criteria that you tried to change to when I pointed out the losing!
My criteria has and will always be SUCKING so you pick at the top of EVERY ROUND not just the first!
But you go right on spinning my opinion as you deem it fits best with your broken record!
I know what MY criteria is and even with the one you tried to turn it into the point remains proved!
None of those guys you want to add in did anything! And were at best as good a pick as pelfrey, Davis, Duda and Neise!
But you keep on selling that bago shit you keep pushing here!
We will all laugh at the end when you finally give up on this homegrown kick and we go back to improving the team every year not 6 years from now!
There aren’t any players drafted that long ago still playing on either of our teams.
What do you want to do, go back to 1967?
A few corrections are in order Metsie.
“Does Strawberry get pitches to hit without them (Foster and Hernandez) and later Carter protecting him in the lineup?”
I’d say yeah, especially since Straw hit AFTER Hernandez and Carter.
“Does Gooden win 17 games without Foster and Hernandez driving in 80 runs?”
Again I say yeah. 2.84 ERA, 33 starts, 250 IP for a team that won 100 games. Hell yeah.
“Do the ’86 Mets win without guys like Ojeda?”
You mean a guy obtained in a trade for someone we drafted at the very end of the first round? A draft slot you label meaningless?
“Sandy is being a lazy bastard by not trading quantity instead dangling our best players.”
We don’t have quantity to trade thanks to spending so many draft choices on guys like Bay, Wagner, Alou and failing to take back others handed to us on a silver platter like Perez, Castillo and Wagner.
All Generation K proved is that you can’t ask kids to throw 200 innings in their first or 2nd full professional season and accumulate close to double figures in complete games without having them breakdown later.
We’re trading away all our best players?
How? You mean Beltran? He wouldn’t have been here what are you talking about? Oh you mean Pagan? Or is it K-Rod? That was one of about two dozen salary dump deals we’ve made in the last two decades and now you speak up?
Do the names Saberhagen, Appier, Vaughn, Bonilla, Coleman, Weathers, Zeile, Ventura, Cedeno, or kaz Matsui ring a bell?
Where you been?
YEah and without them they nmerely walk Strawberry!
point 2 did they win 100 games 0-0?
Or did they socre a run? How many runs scored did Gooden have? And how many were scored without an RBI?
Point 3 chaging the subject as usual when you get caught!
Do those names ring a bell?
yep the maintained and slowed the decline of Attendance during the time when mcIlvane was killing this team!
The one guy you actually like!
Done!
Yep because Rollins and Howard were picked in years they picked 2nd in every round and Utley because they were worse than us!
You forget that I wasn’t the one who said the phillies became winners based on their drafting…That sadly for you WAS YOU!
I said they became good enough because the Braves and us were not anymore!
It was the BRAVES I said got where they were because they lost for a decade and the Phillies did too!
They got a lot of guys they could trade and while they didn’t make good ones that only works against your 25 year comparison of them vs us not what I said about them!
You compared them to US and WE did not SUCK as much as they did!
They picked ahead of us more than we picjed ahead of them!
But your problem is you have rehashed your 25 year broken record so many time you forgot what my original response was when you first made it!
SO maybe you should refresh yourself on what was said when you first brought this up and stop trying to change it as each and every point gets disproved by HISTORICAL FACT!
Philles were NOT great drafters! They got 4 players wprth a damn in all thier chances of picking at the top!
Braves did better but thats because they lost for a good decade before and the guys they got then got them to a WS in 91 which may have been maintained after the fact but those picks did not CAUSE them to get there in the first place!
Sorry Charlie but I’m done with your revisionist rant!
I proved neither were all that great at drafting compared to us and the one who was did well because they had a ton more top picks than we did!
But compared to us they really didn’t do all that much better! Not considering how often they had top 10 picks compared to us!
Sorry it was Jeff Blauser who was a top 10 pick, not Jeff Treadway. Blauser was a back up middle infielder who went on to 6 more years with Atlanta most as a starter and had some good seasons. I’d say he qualifies.
Is Blauser, Avery, Smoltz, Merker enough to claim that the Braves were built on top 10 picks obtained by “sucking for 20 years.”
I’d say guys like Justice, Gant, Jordan, Andruw Jones, Javy Lopez, Fred McGrif, Furcal, Maddox, Klesko, McCann, had more to do with it than those guys. Chipper too, who does support Metsie’s theory but after that they were able to keep it going without any top 10 picks. 13 post seasons in 14 years and only Smoltz still there for more than even half of them…….
Yeah and all those guys who came AFTER 91 were what made them a World Series team not the guys who already got them there in 91 right?
I suppose all the guys we got after 86 are responsible for our 86 success as well!
You do see how rediculous you sound when you say guy they got AFTER the got to a WS made then successful don’t you?
I suppose KNOWING they would get them helped them get to that WS in 91 eh?
There were only a handfull of guys who remained from the ’91 team on the ’95 World Series Championship team and some of them were just reserves and the 1995 team was WAY more talented. A much much better team and the Braves just kept adding more and more layers of talent to it. Javy Lopez in for Greg Olson, McGriff instead of Bream, Chipper for Pendelton, Andruw Jones for Nixon, Not even close. Then they add Furcal, McCann, Prado, Hanson, Beachy, Venters, Kimbrel, Heywood, Freeman, Teheran, Delgado, Vizcaino. I mean c’mon. That’s a lot of talent that a team drafting behind everyone or almost everyone is picking up every year.
That’s what has won them 16 pennants in 21 years.
Hey hate ‘em all you want. The fact is their not sitting around all offseason, dick in hand wondering “who are we going to get to play LF, 2B, C, RF, 2 spots in the rotation and 4 in the bullpen.”
Yeah I’m sure but too bad for you that they were successful in 91 and it wasn’t until 95 that you seem to want to count HALFWAY THROUGH their DECADE of DOMINANCE!
So I guess their smart drafting (at least the drafting you refer to only led to 5 years of Dominance in the Division!
Poof goes 25 years worth of broken records!
Nice try Metsie. Braves have made the post season 16 times in 21 years.
Thanks for proving my point though, I knew you’d come around.
Re the Phillies “Almost all their top ten picks were busts.”
This from the guy who has falsly asserted that it was only because of 20 years of top 10 picks that they ever won at all.
I knew you’d finally get it right and I’m glad to get it straight from your mouth.
Facts are you can draft well in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th as well as the 1st. Phillies got real good players in all of those rounds as well as others. They didn’t just get two guys and surround them with a whole pack of guys on their last legs and a crap rotation and one of the worst pens in the history of the game and then make all kinds of excuses.
They also looked elsewhere beyond just type A free agents when they needed a guy and that worked out a hell of a lot better than Alou, Bay, Castillo and Perez.
glad you finally get it.
Chris I think Metsie will be making the same false assertion for many many years to come. Notice no movement on his false assertion that it was top 10 picks acquired by “sucking for 20 years” that built the Phillies.
I already know their were no top 10 picks that had anything to do with the Phillies success, nor did they have any top 10 picks that they traded for anyone that did anything.
Both the Phills and the Braves success was built the old fashinoned way. Amateur scouting, solid drafting in ALL rounds of the draft, elite prospect development, and great professional scouting. Ownership that doesn’t undermine the FO and manager and no relying on a new past their prime free agent every year.
Metsie will be making the same false assertions on into his 80′s. Count on it. He just now asserted that it wasn’t the “worst team money could buy” that went 59-103. He stated it was the guys they replaced “the worst team” with that did.
He recently claimed that Joan Payson was in charge when the midnight massacre occurred.
He is a mountain of misinformation.
And you will too until 2016 when this youth and pick hoarding fails and you have no answer as to why it failed!
You THINK the Phillies drafted well!
They got 4 guys in a decade! and almost all thier top 10 picks were busts!
You thought the Braves drafted well but only AFTER they already made it to the WS!
You go right on thinking that my friend!
I will have the last laugh and re-visit this the day Sandy leaves and we have nothing to show for all your smart drafting!
And considering how bad we are going to be if we DO have success it will serve my point much better than yours!
We WILL suck for a decade and then get the kids to rebuild!
Only by then someone else will be picking them! Not Sandy Goldenboy!
Metsie I’ll take four stars any decade. how many did we have last decade. Two? How many did the Yankees have last decade. One? If Harvey, Nimmo, Fulmer, and Ike become stars this decade I’m happy. and we’re probably winning.
That decline in attendance was from the stench of “the worst team money buy, part 1.”
You know the big stars that turned us into a 66 win team, and a very unlikeable on at that.
That’s what Mcilvaine turned into 88 wins in 4 years without signing any free agents.
No the decline happend AFTER those guys left, you should do some research and start posting some numbers!
I did!
No it didn’t. The decline started when we acquired those dead asses. Coleman, Bonilla, Saberhagen, O’Brien, Murray and they led us to 59-103. As soon as they were jettisoned we started getting better. The following season we were 55-58 without them.
Only if you use the 86 and 87 mets Attendance as the starting point!
What was the attendance drop once those guys you hate left?
Thats what would have happened if we didn’t get those guys and happened right around 1993!
They tried to throw slop at the thing to keep it going because they stopped signing guys they drafted that would have legitmately kept it going. Then they graduated to just signing the cheapest guy and going for a big name every off season.
The fans got turned off and fled in droves, but kept coming around but their attention span got les and less with each new passing and disappointing big name. Now the fans aren’t fooled at all.
We’re tired of the empty promosies of yet another Jason Bay, Mo Vaughn, Vince Coleman, Roger Cedeno, Jeremy Burnitz, Kevin Appier or Roberto Alomar.
We want a competent organization that plan ahead of time a brings up a legitmate Major League catcher when we need on. A RFer who can hit, throw, field and run the bases. A legitmate front of the line Ace and 4 good arms in the pen.
We’re tired of the con game shortcuts.
Totally untrue Metsie. It was you promoting this falsehood that the Phillies and Braves drafted ahead of us and that their success was built on top 5 and top 10 picks. I never claimed it was top 5 or top 10 picks. Your quotes about top 10 picks and “sucking for 20 years” are littered all over the archives.
I always pointed out how it was picks other than first rounder that paid off. How guys like Beachy, D’Anaurd and Hanson (bottom of the first or suplimentary round, or McCann, Freeman and Rollins in the 2nd round. Mid first rounders like Utley, Drabek, Heyward and Hamels, 3rd rounders like Kimbrell, 4th rounders like Bourn, Gant and Justice, 5th rounders like Howard and IFA’s like Ruiz, Javy Lopez, Andrew Jones, Rafeal Furcal, Julio Teheran, Randal Delgado are what makes the difference.
Things you could be doing regardless of what your record was the year before.
Not things that are dependent on “sucking for 20 years” at a time.
You made it about top 10 in the first not me! Go back at your peice it should still be up on the site!
You made it about the top 10 in the first and my only crime was in complying even with that twist by you and showing you that they had more of them as well!
By showing how those picks got the Braves to thw WS!
But you keep trying to change what I said it’s up on the site for all to see!
Try refreshing your memory on what was said! Go find the post where the broken record started!
I’m done here because there is no need for me to post you keep talking for me!
And changing what I say whenever it suits you!
Metsie won’t be happy unless we’re playing monkeyball every off season. He’s angry and bitter unless we devote every asset and every resource into signing a Kevin Appier, Mo Vaughn or Jason Bay every year.
All he had under his tree was Ramirez and a couple of true prospects he’ll have to wait a couple years on and then won’t be able to peruse the old folks home for a couple of expensive soon to be salary dumps if they come through.
In the last 21 years we’ve drafted in front of Philly 11 times, they’ve drafted in front of us 9 times and once we’ve alternated because we tied.
Hardly something to hang your hat on as for their better drafting results than ours. As a fan you should be outraged with our poor drafting performance throughout the years.
Jeez, Phillips flat out busted on 14 out of 17 first, second and third round picks and one of his rare hits was Heilman.
How are you going to have any success when you bust on so many of your best chances year after year after year?
Oh so we took 4 years off the 25 because it sounded better when you needed to spout numbers and hide 4 years of picking ahead of us?
And how many of those picked ahead were in the top 10?
You are just so damn stat manipulative!
Its like a disease with you!
And you wont be happy untilwe suck every year and have a very impressive list on BA!
It would also help if they didn’t share a facility with all the charm of an abandoned factory nestled in a combat zone.
I cant believe these comments. Only a fool would still call what Beane got for Haren a great haul. Oh and that CarGo trade might be the worst trade of the 2000′s. How could you have CarGo in your system and trade him for a rental and call it Moneyballl?
Lmao, this is comical, the one person who LOVES SABERMETRICS AND ALL SABER HEADS is the only one defending billy beane and looking for excuses as to why his methods are not working… billy beane hasn’t won crap, nor will at any time soon either, he’s been offered jobs in larger markets but he decline the jobs because no other organization will put up with his losing seasons in a row, at some point the A’s gotta realize that he’s damaging that team trying to install his money ball ways and get rid of him, look how quicly our organization became a joke under the moneyballers..
Just so many silly comments and I still don’t comprehend why people believe GM’s are either statistically focused or not and there is no in between. All GM’s use statistical information, scouting and a budget to make decisions, with the budget being the biggest factor.
The A’s play in Beirut and make no money, so they have no money to spend. So they work like a AAAA team while they wait to get moved.
The Met’s coffers are empty, they have over spent on a new stadium and worthless players. So now they are forced to be farm focused and are handcuffed financially and can only have a salary budget that will probably be top 12 in the league. This makes it so they currently can’t spend money on big league talent until the vomit is flushed.
That is it. There are no conspiracy theories. Their are no mad scientist GM’s, it’s money. That’s it.
From Joe D, Bayonne, Maniac, Omar, Will, MNJ, all the way to JesseP:
I wanted to reach out to you to extend my wishes for a very Happy Holiday and a prosperous and healthy New Year, to you, your family and your loved ones!!!
Merry Christmas to you and yours Alex as well alex and maybe next year for what it’s worth some of us, maybe Omar, Vinny, Maniac, Metsie, etc. can catch up and watch a game next year and talk BASEBALL!
I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about this. Oakland has no money to work with. he has to trade stars that he can’t afford anymore and try to turn them into some prospects that could be the next big thing so that he can ride them out for four or five years on the cheap, and then trade them when they get too expensive yet again. it’s a constant cycle. if he hits the jackpot on a trade or two, great, they’ll win some games. if they project wrong on a guy, the trade is a bust and he has to try again.
sorry to break it to you all but this is the way the Mets have to operate for the time being because the WILPONS HAVE NO MONEY. it’s like everyone is in denial or something. or you really just don’t get it. It blows my mind that you are still clamoring about how the Mets need to spend all this money that they simply DO NOT HAVE. we can just hope that Sandy is luckier in the trade market than Beane has been.
The Yankees payroll didn’t start to blow other teams away until they had to start dishing out big contracts to their homegrown stars in the early 2000′s, and then start buying big free agents to make up for their lack of farm system. who have they developed since the 90′s stars? Gardner? Joba? the jury is still out on Nova and Montero. Their best pitcher is store-bought and there is no sure things after that.
Sandy is going about this the right way for the resources he has to work with. that is not called being a Sandy apologist. that’s called having common sense.
Winning comes first, not spending. see Phillies and Rangers.
oh yeah and Cano, who used to cost 400K, and now look at what he costs. if u can afford to keep him, great. Mets do not have that luxury right now. quicker we get that through our heads the easier this is all going to be. they have to win with a good cheap homegrown core first so that they can afford to keep them and buy others. Mets didn’t win with Wright and Reyes, they stock piled too many bad contracts and now they’re in debt and have to start from scratch. is this brain surgery?
Stop with this whole common sense logic crap. It has no place here.
This is the land of conspiracy theories and hate.
doesn’t sound so easy though? Just win with a cheap home-grown core. We all know that happens all the time. Let’s just wait for all the kids to come to the show because they will all be better than advertised and make us a contender? Yeah right.
The fact that Sandy is doing a very bad job with the money he has to work with? That’s not even an issue right? Every move he’s made since last year was the only move to make right? A different GM could not POSSIBLY have a different approach to things with the same money right? a different GM would not have handled the Reyes situation different right? Or maybe instead of wasting 3.5 million on Rauch & 12 million on Francisco, using that money to get a starter or 2, trading maybe Pelf with Wright or a couple of prospects couldn’t have kept the Mets in contention right?
You can have young kids, make trades, and sign free agents NOW. I just think Alderson is doing a extremely poor job. But that’s not possible i guess.
I keep hearing about this “could have handled the Reyes situation better” garbage. tell me Bayonne, what was he suppose to do different?
now, keep in mind, the Wilpons never had any intention of keeping him because they can’t afford it. so Bayonne, what could Sandy have done differently?
You keep suggesting that I’m this Alderson fanboy which continues to demonstrate that you don’t comprehend what you read and just label people.
Arguing about whether Rauch is a good pickup is all fine and good but when the team only has 15million to spend on an entire outfield, most of a bullpen (that has been putrid since 07) a catcher and a rotation demonstrate the utter denial you are in about the state of the team.
I imagine that most of us wish the Mets can act like the Yankees but there is one clear difference. The Yankees have money in their bank account and the Mets don’t.
All blame should go to the top.
As for Alderson’s moves, with the lack of resources he has I am glad he focused on bullpen. Most of these pitchers cant get out of the 6th and if slop like Marquis is getting a 3m contract, then the bullpen was the best bang for the buck. I like the Rauch move he will be better than anyone that was left in the pen at the end of ’11. Frank Francisco for 2×6 I am not into. So either you spend more to get a better anchor or spend less to get another Rauch type. I probably would of spent less and took the extra 3m and focused on the outfield.
As much as I hate Pelfrey again with that pile of crap Marquis getting 3m, might as well give him another year. Trade Wright? Go for it.
oh and what happened to all the sabermetric talk? I thought Alderson was supposed to come here and use advanced statistical analysis to find players that the other 29 GMs couldn’t find?
Maybe his use of that stuff is the reason that he’s making so many bad choices and wasting whatever little money he has to work with. But that’s not possible and should not even be considered i guess.
who says Alderson was supposed to come here and use advanced statistical analysis to find players that the other 29 GMs couldn’t find?
you?
Yeah we expectd him to come in with Dice and a blindfold instead!
Well he brought a machete and he is slashing away at the problem!
I don’t think anyone that that, that is just your fantasy. For the last draft for instance, there were plenty of stories about Paul DePodesta being in over 5 different fields a week scouting players. If he just wanted to use his calculator he could of stayed at home. No he traveleled everywhere to see the players with his own eye’s. Why? Because statistics are only a piece of the puzzle.
Why is everyone so afraid of math around here, did you guys go to school?
Nobody is afraid of math – that’s just spin.
Since you brought up Depo, what is his success as a scout? With the Dodgers, his drafting was horrendous, he did nothing special with the A’s…….If you look at Omar, he helped scout and sign a lot of good players like, Sammy Sosa, Jaun Gonzalez, Jose Reyes, and Nelson Cruz – IMO, we downgraded in that area with Depo.
“Oakland has no money to work with.”
and haven’t for over 17 Years despite using this great plan that is supposed to solve that have they?
wait, you are saying Moneyball is supposed to cure being poor?
People around here seem to think so Any otherwise why push it as the cure?
We have no moey so we must play moneyball!
If thats not going to fix the problem maybe we should try something that will!
Billy Beane is the GM of the A’s. Alderson is the GM of the Mets. Different men, different team, different markets, different set of problems. I can understand somewhat why the concern when comparing what Beane does to the Mets but when you get down to it I keep coming back to Billy Beane is the GM of the A’s. Alderson is the GM of the Mets. Different men, different teams, different markets, different set of problems.
I would correct you as follows:
Billy Beane is the GM of the A’s. Alderson is the GM of the Mets. Similar men, different team, different markets, similar set of problems.
Very different set of problems. The A’s are not financial viable until they move. The Met’s have the ability to be financially viable but the owner screwed the pooch.
You’re talking about the cause and effect, not the problem which is they’re broke. In that regard the problem is similar. The solutions to the problem are not.
Nah the solutions to the problem are pretty similar. try to draft smart and make smart trades to get a solid young core you can build around and win with. The problem is that its very hard for Beane to sustain it once he gets there. The Rangers are pretty much where the A’s were in the early 2000′s. Only the Rangers are starting to spend now to put them over the top. the Oakland owners didn’t want to do that.
The key to winning is the draft. it’s not a secret, its been that way forever. No one has ever gotten anywhere without good drafting. You think the Rays are this good now because they bought Johnny Damon?
It’s actually a GOOD thing if the Mets stink for the next two or three years. that means higher draft picks. The worst place you can be in sports is in the middle. If you’re not winning you should be stinking so you can stock up on top of the line young talent.
It still makes me laugh that people want the Mets to do it differently than EVERY OTHER TEAM THATS EVER WON ANYTHING did it and expect to have the same result.
Chris, opn the eyes. It doesn’t matter who the heck the A’s draft if they have to trade them because they are arb eligeble. Or you and donal and company going to claim that you can win with all your guys playing in their first 2+ years. The defense of broken organizations apparently has no bounds.
what are you talking about? who says they can’t afford arbitration? they just can’t afford them when they become free agents. you telling me they would have paid for Haren when he became a free agent in ’08? of course not, so they traded him so they didn’t lose him for nothing. not really sure what you’re saying. are you saying Beane gets rid of guys when they’re not making minimum wage anymore?
Gary, did the owner screw the pooch, or did Omar Minaya? Wilpon basically gave Omar a blank check. I don’t think Wilpon was begging Omar to go give Oliver Perez 36 million or Luis Castillo 24 million.
I’m not saying you, but I just think its funny how so many people are saying how cheap the wilpons are yet they basically gave Omar all the resources he needed to try to build a winner, spent more than anyone else in the entire league, and because it didn’t work out and they didn’t win, now they are bad people. If Beltran puts one over the wall instead of getting his knees buckled in 06 we might not even be having this conversation.
I’m not defending them and saying they are best owners ever. but they spent and spent and didn’t win, and now they are paying the price. But you can NOT call Wilpon cheap. We have to see it for what it really is here. Wilpons gave Omar a LOT of money that he made stupid decisions with and now they are paying.
Well, in Minaya’s defense, a lot of the decision making apparently was taken from him, especially at the end.
That doesn’t defend Oliver Perez or the lousy drafting, but still, the Wilpons did in fact screw up.
Agreed Donal, but the decision making was taken from him AFTER he had already screwed it up with terrible decisions. Like I said, I’m pretty sure Perez and Castillo were Omar decisions. I think its safe to assume that. If the Wilpons should be taking any crap for anything it should be for LETTING Omar spend money he clearly couldn’t be trusted with.
It prob went down like this….
Wilpon – “Omar, you gave 60 million of my dollars to these two bums and now we stink and no one will come watch this team. We’ll take it from here.”
In “screwing the pooch” I was referring to them over extending themselves to get a new stadium and getting hosed by Madoff since they didn’t diversify their funds.
Similar set of problems yes in that they are of a financial sense. Similar men? Were splitting hairs I suppose but if the point is to say that they are similar in having worked together and maybe agreeing on some concepts I would agree. But I think sometimes too much is made of such a connection where the actions of one is perceived to be what the actions of the other would be as well and I am of the opinion the much more senior and more experienced of the 2 in this case Alderson would not follow in the same steps as Beane.
this is basically like saying joe d sucks because matthew cerrone sucks.
I understand what you are syaing here North Jersey, but it’s really not all that different. they are both trying to build a winner with no money through smart drafting and good trades. its just not working out for Beane, and it hasnt been. mostly because of bad trades.
..and bad drafting.
correct.
“Different men, different teams, different markets, different set of problems.”
But the same GAMEPLAN apparently!
I understand that is your opinion but I disagree.
Well what gameplan do you think Sandy IS using?
It sure isn’t about spending on good free agents and if not moneyball pray tell…
WHAT IS IT?
I guess 1st you would have to establish what is that which one would call money ball and when that is agreed to proceed to point out what has been done in New York that would fall under the described money ball umbrella. Even after this there is a difference in saying the current FO is doing something that falls under said umbrella now due to the current situation and saying this is the long term plan irregardless of ownership finding resolution to the financial situation or not.
I am pretty confident though that for a few just agreeing on what money ball is will have a number of differing opinions as to what is or isn’t money ball based on the reading of past posts so in the end one usually can’t get past what money ball even is to begin with.
In Oakland they have operated under the system of never having money as part of the job for some time now. In New York this was never the case. Money was never an issue as looking into what this team has spent compared to everyone else in the past shows the Mets have historically spent money just not successfully if the result is to be measured in W.S. Titles 1st and post season appearances 2nd when compared to the results of other MLB teams and what they have spent.
Now you have an ownership that find themselves in a precarious financial situation that may result in them eventually losing the team. Regardless of what the end result with ownership is the current FO will not survive past the next 2 to 4 years if they are unable to turn this franchise around by that time at least this is my opinion as far as how I see it.
The idea that the future of the Mets from now on is about being at the bottom of MLB in spending year in year out and every time a prospect gets near arbitration they trade him as what is happening in Oakland I would have to see to believe. What is occurring now is due to the situation the franchise is in and unlike Oakland which have operated the way they have for years in New York no GM could survive for 14 years as Beane has in Oakland doing what he has done. Again, just my opinion.
In New York the moves that have been done so far have been gone over and dissected time and time again and most fans already know what are the talking points on each one from most fans perspectives be it good , bad, right, wrong or undecided. Everyone with an opinion some agreeing some disagreeing and that is the way it’s supposed to be.
You want to say it’s moneyball that is fine but I don’t know what that actually means to you. I believe the current GM is acting with the intent on trying to turn the franchise around and winning again while working within the current ownership issues.
Now will he? I don’t know.
I know this. I would probably be just as frustrated with the current FO as you are if I shared your opinions but I just don’t share many of them.
LOL That was one helluva long way to go to say what is Moneyball wasn’t it?
I get what your trying to say which sounded to me like I don’t know what they are doing so can’t really define it.
But do you think they have actually turned anything around yet?
If so what?
what do you think will be better next year other than the fence lines!
I get it that they don’t have money to spend. But Oakland is proof positive that not spending money doesn’t solve the lack of money. It does not put you into position to spend nor allow you to at some point spend more!
SO I don’t see where the NOT Spending ends based on their actions and their actions say they are going to have to spend even less until they find a way to charge Crickets for stadium entry!
LoL, well I never said what is moneyball but posed that one would 1st need to understand what it is.
I didn’t say you don’t know what they (assuming they are the Mets FO) I am saying you would have to tell me what they are doing that falls under what you describe as moneyball and even with that it does not establish that it is to use your word the “gameplan” from now on irregardless of the Mets financial situation.
I already have told you that I did not expect things to be turned around in 1 year. The situation is one that will become clearer as far as if progress is really being made in the next year or 2 at the most I would suspect. Needless to say if in year 3 the team is worse than this past years team I suspect the cries for change will become increasingly louder.
I have yet to see someone say that the Mets should simply not spend money so I am not sure where this thought from you comes from. What I have read and I agree with myself is simply spending is not the solution but spending wisely as the Mets history clearly illustrates the Mets have made poor decisions in past years.
Now you feel the team needs to spend to solve the money woes. You say fans come out to see stars. There is truth in that but fans want to see a winning club and the Mets had Reyes and Beltran last year and fans didn”t fill the park but I would wager that if the Mets were in 1st place on August 1st with a bunch of no names the park would be filled.
This is something you and I disagree on and probably always will but that is OK.
You know you have big problems when in the last four years Nick Swisher has more HR’s by himself, than your entire OF combined.
I gotta say JoeD I just love these threads!
Look at all the guys who believe Moneyball is a smart plan try to defend it and at the same time try as hard as they can to explain how we aren’t using it!
If it’s such a great idea why aren’t they PROUD and SUPPORTIVE of it being used and stop trying to hide it the way Sandy his the fact he was never going to sign Reyes for ANY price?
I just love watching all the rats try and abandon the Moneyball ship when it isn pointed out that is Excatly what Sandy is doing!
Come on Billy Beane is a genius! Look at how he singlehandedly revolutionized baseball. Look at how many times he won a World Ser… oh never mind. According to Moneyball he was the reason why the Red Sox won the World Series though.
well, he was. guess who Theo’s mentor was. Theo was just better at it and had more money.
You go right on thinking that Sonny!
Theo came on during the 2003 season!
That team won 95 games that year and 93 the year before he even got there!
They had a salary of 99 Mil when he took over and it incresed the very next year by 27 Mil!
He won the WS everyone gives him credit for winning!
He then proceeded to reduce Payroll to 120M and won nothing!
Then an Increase af another 23 Mil and then win their second WS!
Please tell us which Chapter in the book about Beane that Epstien was mentored by and following there please?
reduced Payroll to 121 Mil over the next two years and won nothing!
Increased Payroll by 41 Mil in 2010 and this time it didn’t work! They signed Crawford and still managed to reduce payroll by a little less than a MIl and he left for Chicago!
There is NOTHING about what the red Sox did that echos any knowledge gleaned from Beane (who you call his mentor!)
What he did was took a 95 win team built by Duquette added some Salary and won the WS, Let the money go away for Kids only to have to spend again to win a second WS!
I must have missed the chapter in Moneyball and the parts attributed to Epstein’s Mentor regarding that plan!
All Theo took from beane was the use of Sabers and he skipped all the part about CHEAP in his evaluation proccess!
UNLIKE his MENTOR!
pg. 211
“…they’ll know, also, because the Red Sox assistant GM, Theo Epstein, talks to Billy Beane as often as he can. Epstein is a 28-year-old Yale graduate who has known for some time that he’d like to be the general manager of a big league team, and, when he is, which general manager he’d most like to be.”
pg. 294
“The Boston Red Sox, having failed in their attempt to hire Billy Beane, did the next best thing, and hired a very bright young man, Theo Epstein, who viewed Beane as his role model.”
anything else?
ya see Metsie, with the Red Sox and Yankees adopting Beane’s way of thinking, and having much, much more money than him, Beane couldn’t even get these players anymore. which is why The A’s suck now. His cat got out of the bag, and is now running all over Boston and New York. “Moneyball” was only working because no one else was doing it.
Beane wanted Youkilis pretty badly. guess who got him?
The reason why the A’s have been losing is because of 2 reasons:
1:Terrible drafting.
2:Terrible trades
I don’t care what your type of thinking is, if you can’t draft, and you make terrible trades, your never gonna be succesful – The A’s losing has nothing to do with other people adopting his way of thinking…..Their losing because they have done a terrible job drafting and with trades, and there is no excuse for that.
Now here’s why they did do pretty good for a few years:
They developed three stud pitchers, and two really good hitters(Tejada and Chavez). They won the good ole fanshioned way – through scouting and player development – nothing new, nothing fancy, nothing sabermetic about – It’s as old as the hills.
“ya see Metsie, with the Red Sox and Yankees adopting Beane’s way of thinking, and having much, much more money than him, Beane couldn’t even get these players anymore”
Beane got three players last offseason for pretty much nothing, here’s their OBP’s from the year befroe
Willingham .389
Dejesus .384
Matsui .361
So, he still gets guys like that. The only difference is now, they aren’t developing any players…and trading away the few that they do.
The NYY haven’t signed guys with a bad OBP since Mariano Duncan in 1996 (and it went up quite a bit that year too)
Sure that was just a coincidence.
Fact is Beanne knew he couldn’t outspend the NYY for high OBP guys so he filled everyone in on his “secret.” Raised the cost of it and moved on to something else.
They haven’t?
Granderson .327 OBP for Detroit?
Swisher .332 OBP for the White Sox?
Hmm I wonder what Bizarro world your facts are coming from?
Metsie, those are above average OB percents. I said they haven’t gotten low OB guys since Duncan
Oh so the above average OBP dropped by .020 points just to make your point?
Please Tag…
Chris said he couldn’t get those players anymore, and he’s wrong. Last year they got Willingham, Dejesus, and Matsui, who had good OBP’s. They prove the theory wrong the A’s can’t get the high OBP players anymore.
Compare Willingham, Dejesus, and Matsui’s OBP’s to some of the players they signed for 2002.
Scott Hattenburg: .332 OBP the year before.
David Justice .333 OBP the year before
Now:
Willingham .389 The year before
Dejesus .384 The year before
Matsui .361 the year before
Wait, what’s this? The players they are getting now, actually have a HIGHER OBP? completley disproves Chris’ point.
Everyone says they can’t get those players anymore, but nobody does any research to prove it – They just say it wtihout facts…
oh, you mean the 36 year old Hideki Matsui with bad knees at the butt-end of his career. yes teams were lining up for his services. and Josh Willingham who is 32 and has played 130 games THREE times in his career. yeah pretty tough to get those guys. and David Dejesus was acquired by trade. and funny, he left for free agency and had they re-signed him he would instantly become their highest paid player with the deal he just got from the Cubs.
valiant effort though, Vinny.
Your grasping at straws,
David Justice who was almost age as Matsui, counts as an undervalued player, but Matsui doesn’t? Yeah, Ok.
Willingham doesn’t count because he didn’t play many games? Well, guess what? He played in more games than Hattenburg and Justice did the year before they signed with the A’s. And you leave out the fact he only started for 5 years before the trade.
David Dejsus is going to make 4.2M for the next two years – That’s not very expensive…..And saying he would have been the highest paid player on the A’s isn’t saying much at all.
You said they couldn’t get these players anymore, and you were wrong – The players they got last year, in fact, had HIGHER OBP’s than the players back in 02.
Yes where is the page where it says you need to increase payoll by 20 Mil to win a WS?
HUH?
Umm Red Sox payroll in 04 was 127mil, then 123 then 120. You’re acting like they didn’t win the WS in 05 and 06 because Theo drastically dropped payroll “down to 120″
Look, people who assume like Pomes did that Beane and his theory of how to run an organization didn’t change the entire sport are just plain wrong. It’s absurd to even think like that, and if you say that you either have no clue what you’re talking about or you have an agenda.
Jed Hoyer (chc), Jeff Luhnow (Hou), Michael Hill (Fla), John Mozeliak (Stl), Josh Byrnes (SD), Ben Cherington (Bos), Chris Antonetti (Cle), Dayton Moore (KC), Andrew Friedman (TB), Jon Daniels (Tex), Alex Anthopoulos (Tor) all would not even have the job they have today if not for the Oakland A’s line of thinking.
They broke the code that all GMs had to be old time, good ole boys within the baseball circle. These are just GM’s, it doesn’t even include guys who work high up in front offices around the sport. That’s 11 guys running a team who wouldn’t get the chance to had Oakland not thrown the book of how to run a franchise out the window.
I’ll never in my life say everything ANY GM does is perfect. Every team, has different circumstances. When you compare Beane to Alderson in 2011, you’re just looking for a reason to be negative. People discount the A’s from 99-06, because they’d rather talk about 07-11 because it makes their case look stronger.
I don’t think Alderson is trying to make the Mets the Oakland A’s of 07-11, I think he’s trying to get this team as young as possible and as on the cheap as possible so they can figure out the next move based on finances… whether it be to buy the Wilpon’s time to get their you know what together OR to get this team sold. Oakland is treading water because their city is jerking them around, they can’t do anything about that.
The biggest problem I see with people like you Metsie is you assume that every single person who thinks similar to Beane is the same. You assume that some machine created Ricciardi and DePodesta and they are just clones to Beane. You act like all “they” want to do is not spend $.
If that is true then why would DePodesta have spent $ on Jeff Kent, JD Drew, and Derek Lowe? Were they cheap players? Of Course not.
Every situation is not the same. Every person is not the same. What makes Oakland’s owner happy, may not make Toronto’s owner happy. Different people, different situations.
Excuse me but NO they didn’t win a WS in 05 and 06!
They won it in 04!
After adding 28 Mil to the Payroll!
THATS what I’m saying!
Both their WS wins were immedatly after adding 20+ mil of players to their team!
And here is a newsflash for you…
SABERS Changed the game!
Only thing Moneyball did was fool you all into thinking not spending on Talent is good if you USE Sabers!
Well how has that worked out for beane?
I didn’t say they won it all in 05 or 06
“He then proceeded to reduce Payroll to 120M and won nothing!”
You’re acting like their payroll was $160 in 2004. Dropping from $127 to $123 then $120 isn’t exactly earth shattering. You’re talking about having$17mil Pedro and Not having Pedro. It’s not as though they said “We’re cutting payroll to save $” and then not having Johnny Damon back for 06.
It’s not like they went out and traded away so many big contracts….
They spent $163 and $168 the last 2 years, how’d that work out so far?
Well lets look at it this way…
They lost 3 more games than they did WITH Pedro in 2005! Lost in the LDS instead of winning the WS!
Ever wonder how that would have been different if they had kept Pedro?
You miss the bigger point! (Not surprised!)
I wasn’t focused on the CUTS that you love so much!
I was pointing out the BUYS (20+ Mil in a year) that led to BOTH WS Wins!
And sure they spent 160+ mil the last two years! Increase of 40+Mil from 2009!
Who did they lose the Division to the last two years and how much did they spend?
No one said that Boston were GREAT at spending!
But both their WS wins happened after a 20+ Mil investment in talent!
Not their frugality and most CERTAINLY not Moneyball!
Sabers were used but Sabers Moneyball!
Despite what those who claim to have read the book believe and think!
Theo used Sabers and it no longer is an edge for anyone because they ALL use them to some degree!
And using them works better for teams who DO NOT remove the expensive players who show up at the top of the saber sorts from being considered!
Which is really what Moneyball does and is all about!
The Yankees, Red Sox and Oakland by using Sabers all come up with the same rankings for players with little variation! But the A’s jump to get the middle of the list while the Yankees and Red Sox take whoever is available at the top!
Which is why the yankees have made thre playoffs 16 out of the last 17 years, Boston has done it 9 out of the last 17 Years (Both from thre same division!) and the A’s have only 5 in the last 17 years and are looking for some other place to play where the Fans have not gotten sick of seeing promise but no glory!
No you don’t have to spend a lot to win the WS and make the Playoffs!
But you have to spend if you want to do that EVERY YEAR or at least have a chance to!
Anyone else notice Bill Beane is a dead ringer for Doug Flutie?
oh jeez Metsie, now you’re just digging, man. seriously. you’re looking for every little thing to support your argument. are you serious with this? this even has to be explained to you? but then again look who it is I’m dealing with. I shouldn’t be surprised.
In 2006 they won 97 games and were one hit away from the world series. In 2007, they won 88 and despite the collapse, expectations were still pretty high going into the ’08 season. In 2009 they won 70 games. SEV-EN-TY. how high were expectations going into the 2010 season? In 2010 they won 79. how high were expectations going into this past season? Expectations are highest the year after a winning season, or making the playoffs, and highest when winning the world series. To increase attendance the Mets need to heavily out-perform their expectations. It has nothing to do with how many stars are on the field. people don’t go to see stars despite what you think, they go to see winners.
come on man, I know you have the baseball IQ of a nine year old, but you have to be smarter than this.
Acually, Chris. You reaasoning sounds logical but it is out of date. In today’s market the greatest chunk of gate receipts come from season tickets sales, no longer the massive walk up gate of days gone by. People buy their tickets from stub hub and similar sites getting them from season ticket holders. The walk up sale is not significant anymore because of the asinine parking fees at the parks and in NYC the tolls for many to get to the park. So how do you sell season tickets, which are sold before the season aren’t they? Yous eel them by having a woinner from last year, or by bringing in a name or anmes to rejuvenite a defeated fan base. See NYK. One year ago a deflated fan base got excited by the signing of one big name in Stoudemire. The Knicks still were crappy but the one name sold tix. How mant tix did the Mets sell by all their awesome moves? None. Its a negative. The Mets are gauaranteed to have a reduced attendance even if they play well. Just like last year when the genius told Met nation the Mets were going to suck (in so many words). The team overperformed but tix weren’t sold before hand due to his mouth, and they never recovered. And the genius made matters worse for 2012 by ridding the team of most name players and bringing in nada. he guaranteed a failure for attendance in 12.
They just don’t get it and will NEVER get it because they have NEVER been in the position to decide whether to renew season ticket plans or not!
They have never dedicated or supported the team to that level!
Season ticket holders past and present have a decision to make before even one game is played!
You can’t wait to buy or not buy till after they show you what is in store for you that season!
And they don’t get that is the PRIMARY reason Sandy gave us shovel fulls of crap regarding his interest in resigning Reyes. In Hopes the few Season Ticket holders would renew before they figured out one of the best players on the team was not going to be there!
I am positive Sandy was hoping it took a LONG TIME for Reyes to accept and take offers.
The Longer it took the better the chance of Season Ticket buyers renewing before they found out Reyes was not going to be there!
They even moved up the deadline for paying for those seats to December hoping you would commit before you figured out reyes was a goner!
Winning does very little for the attendance of the year the winning occurs!
It is all post recieved by the promise that they will build upon those wins in the offseason!
Even a horrible season can see an uptick in purchases and attendance with the mere addition of someone like Beltran and Martinez!
Attendance from a 71-91 losing season in 2004 went up over half mil despite only 12 more wins! And thats cause Beltran and Martinez were both signed before the usual Jan 31st Billing date for Season Ticket Renewals!
Half a Million people saw a Pitcher who just led his team to the WS and a Big Bat who carried his team with a torrid playoff performance being acquired and they lined up to renew as well as other who did not have season tickets before but thought they were worth having for 2005!
And they kept them and added to those purchases after each other big star that was brought in right up until the point where those stars got injured in 2009 so they lost 300K of what they gained merely by signing those first two guys!
“They just don’t get it and will NEVER get it because they have NEVER been in the position to decide whether to renew season ticket plans or not!
They have never dedicated or supported the team to that level!”
another classic Metsie contradiction.
oh, you’re dedicated to this team enough that it takes winning seasons and “stars” for you to want to renew your season tickets???
you friggin bandwagon front-runner.
If I COULD afford season tickets I would buy them if they won 70 games or 100. because I am a METS FAN. you seem to be a mets fan when they have high priced players that you think maybe they can win with, you waste.
No Stupid and you would know just how stupid you are if you had bothered to read that I hads Season Tickets from 1979 right on through to 1993!
But you were still Nipple Seeking at that time weren’t you?
never did I mention anything about walk-up sales.
and even if that’s what I meant, if you don’t think the Mets attendance would go up in the second half if they were in first place at the break, perhaps you don’t think the sun will come up tomorrow either.
but what I was referring to is 2013, if they were to win in 2012. they’re pretty destined for an attendance drop in 2012 no matter what, after their third consecutive sub-80 win season, with or without their star Jose Reyes.
Never did you mention anything worth responding to either!
You said winning sells tickets…Only I say if it does it’s not for the year they were winning!
It is the hope that those wins means you HAVE some stars worth buying season tickets for next year!
And if not that then going and signing one does just as good a job!
But it’s a point lost on children like you!
“It is the hope that those wins means you HAVE some stars worth buying season tickets for next year!”
exactly Metsie, you’re proving my point. so you’re a STAR fan not a Mets fan.
are you a Justin Bieber groupie also??
“…if you had bothered to read that I hads Season Tickets from 1979 right on through to 1993!”
ok, so then why is the renewal of your season tix now a question? same team name, same city.
because they won’t have any stars. sooo, you’re a star chaser.
you had season tix in 1979, which prob means you’re pretty old if my math is correct. but you talk and argue like you’re an eight year old who constantly uses exclamation points to make yourself sound right.. how does that make you feel?
yes little boy whatever it takes to stop you from crying and throwing anymore tantrums!
You beloieve what you want…but before I go how many years have you owned Season Tickets and what years were those…
Cause if the answer is never that STILL makes me a much more dedicated fan that you are!
SO I hope you have a decade worth of Season Ticket purchases, if not then I guess MY FAN is BIGGER THAT YOUR FAN Little Tyke!