MMO Fan Shot: Smart Spending, Saving Money and Long Term Planning

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• jessep November 16, 2011 at 2:54 pm

  I’m not sure why Hairston, Harris, Paulino, Capuano contracts are considered wasted $? Were they all stars? No. But you need 25 players on a big league roster. They weren’t signed to be stars they were signed to be adequate bench/platoon players and or a #5 starter.

  What’s so bad about that?

  Buchholz is kind of a low blow too. He was very good in his 23 games, and I guess if you wanna blame Alderson for his bout with severe depression that is your choice, doesn’t make you right though
  • any November 16, 2011 at 3:35 pm

    for bench/backup guys, you can spend a modest amount on veteran guys like this, or go real cheap and take all guys out of the minors (Evans, etc.) including all your middle relievers.
    • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 4:59 pm

      ANy why does that make more sense than filling those spots with Kids who cost even less, Won’t hurt your NO CHANCE AT WINNING in 2012 and might turn out to be a long term piece of the puzzle as opposed to a purge or resigning for 2013 with nothing fixed for the future?
      • Donal November 16, 2011 at 6:31 pm

        Because bench jockeying isn’t what they need. They are better off getting regular PAs until there is a chance for them to play regularly.
        • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 9:23 pm

          Bench jokeying is EXACTLY what Sandy is doing! Signing Boyer Young Capuano for a year!
          None of those guys save the two he decided to RESIGN are in the plans nor are long term solutions!

          SO congrats you just described what Sandy’s plan REALLY IS!
          Roster Jockeying!

          Only my Jockeying costs half as much and if one kid turns out to be good ALSO turns into a TEAM CONTROLLED, YOUNG, LONG TERM FIX for the team!
  • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 4:58 pm

    Why? Because they cost 2X more than league Minimum, didn’t contribute to the success, Are not part of any LONG TERM SOLUTION and are done and need to get paid again for what wasn’t worth paying for in the first place!

    Remember YOUR PLAN hinges on us not doing anything next year, NO SHOT, NO WINNING, NOT EVEN TRYING!

    SO we can do that with league Minimum Minor leaguers just as well as 1-2Mil ROSTER fillers.reclamation projects who take up spaces and deny those KIDS your so concerned with collecting from being taken in the Rule 5 draft!

    For every Hairston, Harris and Buchholz thats one less protected kid like Havens, Flores, and Mejia!
    I know your a little tunnelvisioned on the WASTE factor. Wasting Roster spots are FAR worse than wasting dollars that aren’t yours!
    • jessep November 16, 2011 at 5:29 pm

      what are you talking about? Mejia is on the 40 man, and Havens and Flores weren’t Rule 5 eligible so giving spots to veteran guys on 1 year deals doesn’t do anything to their eligibility
      • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 5:33 pm

        Pick any names you want smart ass! For every HAIRSTON that does nothing towards competition that means one Minor leaguer who is HALF the price at Minimum is not on the roster where he is protected!

        Is this all you have here?

        That you want to play kids but it’s WRONG to play kids because it’s SMARTER to spend on nobody do nothings?

        TO what end?

        Becuase they will suck MORE than the kids and therefore you get better draft placement is that what your plan is all about?
        • Donal November 16, 2011 at 6:33 pm

          Hairston’s role is as a bench player. If he gets 200 PAs a season, that is a lot. What good would it do for a kid trying to break in to take such a role when he needs regular PAs?
          • jessep November 16, 2011 at 7:36 pm

            So your idea is don’t sign veteran bench players because fictional minor leaguers need that spot?

            I’m sorry did I miss the minor leaguers who were held back from the big leagues because of Scott Hairston or Willie Hairston?
            • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 9:25 pm

              Oh so now your argument is there are only three players in the Minors we need to protect is that it?

              REALLY?

              Is this your only defense of your SHORT TERM NO FIX philosophy compared to my well reasoned long term build from within approach?

              Who said that Sandy was all about LONG TERM PLAN again?
              And what was that plan?
    • XtreemIcon November 16, 2011 at 7:09 pm

      You can’t just call up kids for the fun of it if they don’t show they’re ready in the minors. It was far more beneficial to say, Kirk N. to sign Hairston for a year than rush Kirk up before he was ready. Same with Cap instead of Cohoon. Look what happened with Mejia and Tejada in 2010. They were rushed, played poorly and their clock was started needlessly way too early. That’s part of the long-term plan. You don’t “see what you got” with your top prospects, you wait till they’re ready, so they’re not ruining development while their clock is running.

      The Mets currently have no prospects at the AAA level with an ERA under 6.00 (that’s right, no real prospects in AAA under 6.00), and no one but McHugh with an ERA under 3.50 in AA. That’s who you want to call up? Young kids with no success in AAA and marginal success at the AA level? To play on the Mets? To save money? That’s ridiculous. Absurd, even. To start their clock on the major league level when they’re not even competing at the minor league level is a terrible idea.
      • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 9:28 pm

        Sure you Can Xtreem we did it plenty this year!

        Justin Turner
        Reuben Tejada
        Lucas Duda
        Nick Evans
        Dillon Gee
        Jason Pridie
        Ike Davis (2010)

        The problem is the guys who said they were ready were all WRONG weren’t they?

        And you were AMONG those WRONG folk!
        Those guys came up and did just fine! With a little more experience will probably do better and ALL of then were cheaper than your CHEAPEST FA SCRUB FILLER!
        • XtreemIcon November 16, 2011 at 9:40 pm

          Davis hit around .350 in the minors. Who said he wasn’t ready? Seriously, come on now. Duda came up last year and was terrible. Tejada came up last year and was terrible. Pridie was a bench jockey who’s already been released and signed somewhere else for a non-guaranteed contract. Nick Evans wasn’t even good enough to get claimed any of the four thousand times he was DFA’d. Turner’s a bench/utility guy. And Gee is a back of the rotation starter who was mediocre in hte minors at 25 years old. Only Ike, Gee, Duda and Tejada are even remotely valued as prospects, Ike is the only one who I can see becoming a superstar.

          Do you talk just to hear the sound of your own voice?
          • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 10:08 pm

            If Davis was ready why wasn’t he our 1st baseman?
            Why did we sign Tatis?

            Was Gee ready?
            Was Turner Ready?
            Was Pridie ready?
            Was Duda ready?

            You say “You can’t just call up kids for the fun of it if they don’t show they’re ready in the minors”
            So you think it’s better to just throw any 1 mil per year player in there instead? Why?
            Does it help you win?
            I though Winning isn’t the goal it is rebuilding with the minors? How can you do that when you wait until someone is ready or don’t even know it until you TRY THEM as was the case with Gee, Turner and Duda?

            Do you remember back at who my starting rotation was before this season started?
            Do you remember how we argued that Gee was in my list and how bad a decision that would have been?

            Worse than Chris Young? Hindsight being 20/20 what would have been the better move then?
            The only problem with starting kids before they are ready is they COULD HURT your team but does that apply to a team everyone says is not in contention and won’t be for another two years minimum?

            So what could be HURT by playing a kid even one who might actually NOT be ready?
            Wouldn’t playing against MLB Pitchers help him get up to speed on hitting MLB pitching faster than facing the NOT READY AAA Pitchers he is currently facing?

            If we are going to lose even WITH these crap 1-2 mil signings then lets just lose with a few NOT READY kids instead in hopes that the year of experience will MAKE THEM READY!
            Make them a LONG TERM ANSWER instead of just another guy we have to resign at the end of the year who did squat or did more and now wants 4 times the money!
            Like Capuano will now demand!

            Did we solve anything on the long term with Signing Capuano?
            Only for Capuano’s Agent and certainly not anything long term on the Mets!
            Lets those guys restore their career elsewhere!
            And when they prove they ARE worth signing sign THEM as the one GOOD 3-4 Mil guy and keep playing Kids!

            I personally don’t care if they are ready or not your right!
            because you have already deemed them WORTHLESS!
            How can you RUIN what is worthless?
            And how much ruin can they do to a team who already has decided it is ruined before the season ever started and will not even TRY to win?

            If you belive they are worthless then we can’t hurt them by starting them!
            and if you believe we aren’t winning even IF we sign these cheap crap FAs
            Then they can’t ruin 2012 season either!

            When there is nothing to lose either way and financial stability and removal of waste is a goal!
            Go for the NOTHING that costs less and if it turns out to NOT be nothing you still own it for years to come!
            • XtreemIcon November 16, 2011 at 11:13 pm

              “If Davis was ready why wasn’t he our 1st baseman? Why did we sign Tatis?”

              Beats me, but that’s Omar for you. Don’t forget Jacobs, too. All of NY was screaming for Ike to come north, but Omar thought those two bench jockeys were a better idea. Now he’s fired.

              Was Gee ready? On the fence. Was mediocre in the minors but was too old to be there. He was best suited for the position he was in. 6th starter/reserve while better pitchers were signed instead.
              Was Turner Ready? Inconsequential, bench jockey with no legit future.
              Was Pridie ready? Inconsequential, bench jockey with no legit future.
              Was Duda ready? Clearly and obviously not even close.

              “So you think it’s better to just throw any 1 mil per year player in there instead? Why?”

              It’s not that simple. You really need to stop painting everything with a broad brush. Was signing Hairston better than bringing up Kirk to start the season after he hit .225 after his promotion to Buffalo in 2010? A million percent yes. Now Kirk has another year of AAA and it did him great. He hit .298/.403/.505. When he’s healthy again, he’s a prime candidate for a mid-season call up. Get it?

              “I though Winning isn’t the goal it is rebuilding with the minors?”
              Stop being ridiculous.

              “Worse than Chris Young? Hindsight being 20/20 what would have been the better move then?”
              I make that move every single day and twice on Sunday and anyone who knows baseball OUTSIDE the lines does it, too. Sign a oft-injured but very, very good pitcher to a minimal deal with a healthy, mediocre minor league pitcher on call to handcuff him? Done. All the time.

              “The only problem with starting kids before they are ready is they COULD HURT your team…”
              Half right. It can also hurt the kid, but you either ignore that purposely or don’t understand baseball enough to realize it.

              “Did we solve anything on the long term with Signing Capuano?”
              Yes. Stinson and Schwinden and others were kept in the minors to cook while Cap did an admirable job as the 5th starter.

              “I personally don’t care if they are ready or not your right!”
              Way to be a fan.

              “because you have already deemed them WORTHLESS!”
              LoL. Lying to try and save face. Is that why the other day when I was feeding you your supper in a thread, you tried to bait me by saying something about the team going in the right direction, and when said that they were because Omar left behind some good pieces that I hope pan out, you didn’t respond? Because not even you can twist that into a lie. I flat out said “Omar left some good pieces” and you had nowhere else to go.

              Your entire post is ludicrous because it’s based on a lie about how I feel about the minor leagues. Take the hint.
              • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 11:47 pm

                You Cite Omar doing it with Davis…

                Then dismiss it when Sandy does the same thing though?

                “6th starter/reserve while better pitchers were signed instead.”
                Was Young and Capuano actually better?
                Young played all of 4 games, Cap had a higher ERA and fewer wins!
                In either case Gee was FAR better and cheaper than both!

                “Was Turner Ready? Inconsequential, bench jockey with no legit future.”
                And Hu and Harris are not? They have a legit Future? Hell Sandy KNEW he had
                Murphy
                Tejada
                Turner and STILL went and spent on nothing better for 4 times the price! Even went after Emaus!

                “Was Pridie ready? Inconsequential, bench jockey with no legit future.:
                And Hairston isn’t exactly the same only at twice the price?
                Your Buddy in Oakland seems to think he could play!

                “You really need to stop painting everything with a broad brush”

                Dude I’m not trying to PAINT here it is the guys who say Sandy’s PLAN is a LONG TERM one but yet no moves made actually have any LONG TERM IMPACT and every time he says LONG TERM it is usually in a sentence about NOT spending money LONG TERM!

                We have Kids about to come up!
                Who is going to be behind them?
                Hairston? Harris?

                If all we are spending double on is what we get with spending league minimum then where is the LONG TERM GAIN here?

                You guys are trying to PAINT this plan we have been using as something that IS a LONG TERM PLAN!
                Well what is that plan?
                Who is going to be on the future of this team?
                How is spending on slubs for a year helping that?
                How are they going to help the Kids that DO come up?
                How are those kids going to COME UP with Wasted 1 year contracts for bench Jockeys that you seem to think we have PLENTY OF in the MILs when those signings are taking up the roster spots they could be used in?

                You call ALL our Minor kids Bench Jockeys then go and say we need to pay twice the price for BENCH Jockeys!

                Thats where the broad brush is!
                Same stroke of the brush only one costs 1-2 Mil and one costs 415k!

                At least playing the 415K Bench Jockey SAVES MONEY and if he’s good he STILL COSTS only 415K!
                Not so with your conga line of 1-2Mil scrubs!
              • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 11:50 pm

                Basically X the point of this article is to show that you and jessup are the ones doing ALL the painting and trying to hide the cracks in this alleged LONG TERM PLAN that has no LONG TERM GOAL only the short term goal of reducing payroll and then praying some ROY candidates show up!
              • XtreemIcon November 17, 2011 at 1:08 am

                “Was Young and Capuano actually better?
                Young played all of 4 games, Cap had a higher ERA and fewer wins!”
                Young was a much better pitcher than Gee. It’s silly to even compare them. And you should know better than to compare pitchers based on wins. And only use ERA. First of all, Cap had a 4.55 ERA to Gee’s 4.43. Big difference. Gee’s obviously better, right? Forget that Cap had a better K/9, an better BB/9, a slightly better WHIP, a better LD%, a better FIP and a better xFIP. Cap pitched better than Gee. Simple.

                “And Hu and Harris are not? They have a legit Future?”
                Of course not. They were bench players.

                “Hell Sandy KNEW he had
                Murphy
                Tejada
                Turner and STILL went and spent on nothing better for 4 times the price!”
                Tejada was awful in 2010. Murphy hadn’t played since 2009. Turner had 18 PAs in 2010 and hit .059/.111/.118. Excuse Sandy for not thinking 2B was locked up and needed no help. And let me help you with the math. $25,000K for Emaus and a expendable AA pitcher for Hu is not four times the price of three major leaguers.

                “Was Pridie ready? Inconsequential, bench jockey with no legit future.:
                And Hairston isn’t exactly the same only at twice the price?”
                No, Hairston is much better than Pridie. Obviously. And I like Pridie.

                “Your Buddy in Oakland seems to think he could play!”
                No he doesn’t, he gave him a non-guaranteed minor league deal.

                “We have Kids about to come up!”
                No, that’s not true. Who was close to coming up last offseason that hadn’t played miserably in 2010 that the signings of anyone Sandy signed blocked?

                “Well what is that plan?”
                If you don’t see it, you don’t get it. Long term plans are not expected to bear fruit in 10 months. That’s why they call it “long term.” Sandy knows what he has in the minors and isn’t blocking them. Signing stop-gaps till they’re ready is NOT blocking them.

                “You call ALL our Minor kids Bench Jockeys then go and say we need to pay twice the price for BENCH Jockeys!”
                I dare you to find a quote where I said all the minor leaguers are bench jockeys. I dare you. And also, when “twice the price” is only a half a mil (way to leave that part out), it’s a good move to spend it on someone who can protect the future of a legit prospect by not stunting his development. Remember, that kid can help for a minimum of six years.

                “Basically X the point of this article is to show that you and jessup are the ones doing ALL the painting and trying to hide the cracks in this alleged LONG TERM PLAN that has no LONG TERM GOAL”
                Then you clearly missed the point badly.
              • Metsie November 17, 2011 at 8:19 am

                “Young was a much better pitcher than Gee”
                Yeah in a 4 game season maybe!

                As for the Capuano comparison…I noted those things because it showed EQUALNESS at twice the price!
                Capuano should have been TWICE as good as Gee for the price! He Wasn’t!

                Re: 2B, And what did Hu do the year previous? You talk about how bad Tejada was in 2010 if he was bad what do you call what Hu did?

                RE: Hairston What was Hairston much better at? Being bench Jockey? I mean really was he going to make us a winner? If not then why pay that much when Pridie could make us just as much a NOT winner for half the price?

                RE: “I dare you to find a quote where I said all the minor leaguers are bench jockeys”
                Hmm Justin Turner, Dillon Gee, Jason Pridie, were all names you mentioned as bench jockeys!

                Please tell us how starting a guy from AAA in the MLB is STUNTING his growth!? Isn’t keeping a kid in the Minors longer than he should be STUNTING his growth?
                Isn’t signing a piece of crap that does no better STUNTING that kid’s growth?

                This is a PLAN right? What does the plan do if NO KID ever shows he is ready in the minors?
                Go on signing crap? How long IS that plan? 20 or 30 years?

                A plan is a series of INTENTIONS that you will do to reach a goal. What are the intentions in this long term plan?
                Just wait till we have kids show they are ready and then waste 4 years of our exclusivity on them hoping there are enough FA’s available once they are to go buy to make it count?

                Is this your plan?

                Thats not PLANNING thats just sitting on your hands and HOPING luck changes things! A Plan is an attempt to WILLFULLY implement change!
                So far the only change that has been made is we went from wasting 6 Mil on Castillo to wasting it on 6 other players instead!

                Which is more waste because with castillo we only wasted ONE roster spot on him, your waste wasted 6 spots!
                6 Castillo performances for the price of one!
                This is your idea of SAVING MONEY?

                It doesnt’t save money and it sure as hell won’t save the franchise anytime soon!
• jdon November 16, 2011 at 3:39 pm

  Minor league pitching takes longer than two years to raise your team to playoff caliber. I think we are looking at a 3 or 4 year window, with the possibility of sniffing playoffs in year 3. We need a core of disciplined offensive players who do not strike out a lot and a high end pitching staff. It is not rotisserie baseball. But it would be nice if one of our starters were a true stud. we may have to pay for one of those. It is tough to project prospects to that height.
  • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 5:04 pm

    I do agree with what you said jDon which is why I say lets keep Reyes and then when Santana and Bay come off the books go and then get one true VET ACE to mentor those kids,
    By then Harvey and Familia will have at least a year under their Belt, Wheeler will be close if not ready by then and we will know what Niese really is. Dickey will be up for renewal by then and we should have an entire rotation to work with.

    Question is will we have the Regular position guys all sorted out by that time.
    If we keep Reyes we might. And if we start some kids instead of these Bandaids of the year we keep signing we might find some keepers along the way while we wait!
• any November 16, 2011 at 3:39 pm

  the real questions to me are 1) exactly how cashed strapped the mets team is, and 2) what real difference in ticket sale there will be if Reyes signs, but the team falls out of the race early and never gets back in it.

  because depending on how broke sterling mets is (as in, can they make payroll?), the answer to #2 better be “a big one” or SM will be bouncing checks come July!

  Spending money to make money is something that can work, but you do have to have the money to spend.

  anyway, to Metsie’s point, I think he is correct that (putting aside financial concerns) from a purely BB perspective, Reyes is young enough that you can lock him in as a core piece, and build around him, so that even if it takese 2-3 years (2014 season?) to have the talent to compete with the “big boys”, he can still be a major piece of the puzzle.

  I would argue differently if he was say 32 now.
  • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 5:15 pm

    I believe the questions you asking are wrong.
    WHY are the Mets cash strapped? Answer is clearly attendance!

    Will signing Reyes fix that? NO! But what we have now we might maintain. A doctor would call that “DO NO HARM” part of the treatment. It might take some more wins and some inspired play to increase the attendance. But it’s more possible to get that WITH Reyes than is achievable without it!

    Lets say Reyes signs but we stay flat on the attendance issue. Well we reduced the amount we lose because we took Beltran, K-Rod, Perez and Castillo off the books! Play Kids and we take another 4 Mil off the books (as opposed to signing the guys we did last year.)
    If they have any more success you increased attendance and solved SOME of the financial issues.

    If you let Reyes go Attendance declines! EVEN if you manage to win without him your still busy making up for the initial loss of attendance.

    Reyes doesn’t solve the problem of attendance. Either way!
    It either goes down or possibly stays the same!

    But we have a better chance to win and maintain attendance WITH Reyes, and a better chance to increase it too if they win more games!

    Letting him go only makes the attendance problem worse and any fixes you make are offset by the initial loss of attendance by Reyes leaving!

    Keep him and any PLUS in attendance due to winning actually solves the long term attendance problems which might solve things LONG TERM especially once Santana and Bay come off the books!

    As for what happens if we keep Reyes and they lose more?
    Well unless Reyes is the reason his attendance influence will not be the problem. It will not be because we signed Reyes that we have issues. It will be because of what we refused to put around him to get those wins!
• Donal November 16, 2011 at 4:00 pm

  So, let us start with how you assessed the big contracts:

  Yes, Castillo was a bust. There is nothing further to discuss. He was well bellow the average starter at his position, never mind for one paid as well as he was.

  Orlando Hernandez at $12 million per and Moises Alou at $15 million for 100 games is horrible. And Alou cost us draft picks for no reason.

  As for Wagner and Rodriguez: Yes, paying top dollar for saves is dumb. The way Wagner was handled was dumb. Buying into a guy like Rodriguez when his price was highest was dumb. Paying a guy who throws 3 innings a week like he’s a Cy Young candidate is dumb. Just because everyone else does something dumb does not make it stop being dumb. It just makes you an unimaginative follower.

  As for Delgado and Santana: No, they weren’t awful in and of themselves. The problem is, their injuries were not surprises to anyone familiar with them. Santana already had some elbow issues with the Twins. 40% of pitchers miss at least 5 starts each year anyway. You had to know something would happen eventually. And Delgado was 34 and had chronic back problems when he arrived.

  Yes, Tom Glavine was a bad signing. It was just to grab headlines. No one stopped for a second to ask why the Braves let him go so quickly.

  “It is said the 2012 season is a lost cause and for that reason keeping the guys who make it worth watching is not worth the money. The old standby “we didn’t win enough with Reyes so let’s just lose without him”.

  Does that help or fit into the long term view of things?

  We hear that there is pitching down in the Minors about two years away from making us contenders. Would they not do even better with an All Star SS and top Run Scorer on the roster?

  Is it unwise to start to build and secure the future roster in preparation of their arrival?

  Isn’t that what LONG TERM PLANNING is all about?”

  You are assuming that Reyes will be performing at his 2011 level for the length of the deal. It could happen, but I wouldn’t bet on it. Long term planning requires you to prepare for the most likely outcomes.

  “Pitching wins championships, but it takes good defense and offense to win games. The best pitcher on the planet will not survive a team that does not make the outs with the glove or the hits with the bat. He also will not overcome the problems, make his team competitive and lead his team to a playoff if the team just doesn’t have the goods to make his effort worth it! Look at Clayton Kershaw as a fine example. 21-5 Cy Young but his team won 5 more games than the Mets did. It might work if both Harvey and Familia are Cy Young types but does anyone want to bet the 2013-2016 seasons on that notion?”

  Hold on, are you finally admitting that counting individual wins for a pitcher is abad way of assessing them?

  I really like how you claim to be looking out for long term plans, but think that signing a 29 year old speedster with leg problems to a long term deal because he’s had 1 good year in the last 3 is sound long term planning, but signing bench players to one year deals is so terrible.

  Then again, you said $12 for a season and a half of 40+ year old El Duque was a good buy, so I get the feeling my words are falling on deaf ears.
  • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 4:52 pm

    What a load of crap!!!

    Alou made 8.5 Mil!
    I won’t even bother to try and address the rest because your just going to lie your way around anything and ignore any facts as facts becuase your pushing more lies!

    Discussion OVER as far as your concerned!
    • jessep November 16, 2011 at 5:25 pm

      Metsie if you weren’t obsessed with yelling, you’d read what Donal said. “Moises Alou at $15 million for 100 games”

      Alou played 102 games for the Mets and made $15mil.

      AKA Donal was right, you…were wrong
      • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 5:29 pm

        Oh I guess I’ll have to turn the volumn down on the FONT!

        Here listen to this!
        http://espn.go.com/mlb/freeagents/_/year/2006/newteam/nym

        Is this SHOUTING thing all you got when talking to me?
        Cause it isn’t working I can tell you!
        • Mr North Jersey November 16, 2011 at 5:59 pm

          I think Donal & Jessep may be trying to say that over 2 years Alou made what according to this article comes out to $16M over 2 years which in the end turned out to be 102 games as a Met and Metsie is right when he said Alou only made $8.5M in 2007

          sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2669920
          baseball-reference.com/players/a/aloumo01.shtml#trans
          • jessep November 16, 2011 at 7:38 pm

            Yes Mr NJ. It’s called logic thank you

            “Alou played 102 games for the Mets and made $15mil.”

            How many games did Alou play in a Mets uniform?

            102. Check

            How much did he make?

            $15 mil, check.

            Metsie, stop stomping up and down and realize somebody may actually know something that you are forgetting.
            • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 9:35 pm

              No it’s not a bad deal it was a bad extention!
              They had a club option and took it instead of buying out that means the DEAL wasn’t a killer the option was the only waste!

              But you and donal simply try to OBFUSCATE the DEAL MADE as bad because they made the wrong decision not to buy him out!

              Maybe if you weren’t too busy trying to change the subject of the DEAL made as opposed to the decisions on extending or passing you might get taken seriously!

              He signed for 8.5 mil with a club option!

              That was a GOOD DEAL!
              Not a waste

              And what were his numbers for that again? Or does that not matter?
              If you hear my typing too loudly I suggest you go see an eye doctor and see if he can properly detatch your eyes from your ears!

              Your the only one around here SCREAMING trying to find any reason in creation to let Reyes go!

              Even resorting to some bullshit story about how Sandy’s plan is long term when not one LONG TERM FIX has been made to date!
    • Donal November 16, 2011 at 6:47 pm

      Ya, it is over. Once again, you put up a wall of words to try and hide an argument built totally upon lies and fallacies and it got picked apart.
      • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 9:36 pm

        You shouldn’t talk about yourself like that Donal!
• Donal November 16, 2011 at 4:05 pm

  “If we wish to save money, then the way to do it is to remove the wasted contracts from the roster. That includes Jason Bay, may include Johan Santana if he can’t cut it”

  Oh, is that all? Just get someone to take them off our hands? Why, that should be hard at all.

  ” and MOST DEFINITLY includes getting rid of all the guys we signed to the roster since Sandy came around, with RA Dickey, an Omar find, the lone exception.”

  You mean the guys on one year contracts who were filling small roles on the roster? Those guys who aren’t on the roster anymore with one exception?
  • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 5:18 pm

    Well you know what Donal?
    I suggest you get your thinking cap on and write what YOUR long term plan is!
    Tell us all who is on your roster the next 4 years and who is going to fix everything on this team!

    Instead of just saying Yeah do what Jessup said which really is not much more than making excuses to waste money on 10 guys instead of just 1!
    • kevin November 16, 2011 at 5:47 pm

      It’s tough to teach the closed minded new concepts. Why don’t you save your breath rather than waste your energy trying to explain your opinion, which I agree with, on people who completely couldn’t grasp you point?

      I agree that we would be better served having open tryouts on some more younger guys in 2012 a season that could see us lose a 100 games. At least we can start evaluating who fits in the master plan going forward and who doesn’t.

      Signing Young and Capuano were a waste and the great thing about Young getting hurt was seeing what we had in Dillon Gee. The best thing about dropping Hu, another waste, was seeing what Ruben Tejada could do. Bucholz led to Acosta, Emaus led to Turner. Just stop wasting the little money you have on wastes of roster spots that have nothing to do with the longterm vision.
      • Donal November 16, 2011 at 6:45 pm

        Ya, wasting prospects in bench roles and promoting pitchers who aren’t ready is the way to go. Forgive me. Also, it is awesome to put 23 year olds on the bench where they get 5 PAs a week. That will help them develop so much.
        • kevin November 16, 2011 at 7:27 pm

          Did I say anything about promoting players who arent ready or to sit on the bench?? Dont be stupid. Last year we should have went from Gee instead of signing both Capuano and Young. He proved himself in September of 2010. Instead of trading for Hu we had Turner.

          Plus not every Mets prospect is in line to be a starting player. We have over 200 players in the minors Most ARE utility types or middle relievers at best. For you to think we have all these future starting players that should get everyday jobs when they come up to the majors is so unrealistic and you need to understand how things work.

          Acosta was already coming off a solid 2010 season for the Mets, he should have already secured a job in the bullpen rather than wasting a 2 year contract on Carrasco.

          You are trying to make a point that is based mostly on trying to deflate this guy’s post which is articulating a very good point about a long tern plan.

          Newsflash: Paulino, Carrasco, Young, Capuano, Boyer, Hu, etc. are not part of any team’s longterm plan.

          Hopefully this offseason we spend on players who will be there in 2013-2014 when some of our better prospects are ready. That is what this guy is trying to say.
          • Donal November 16, 2011 at 8:06 pm

            “Did I say anything about promoting players who arent ready or to sit on the bench??”

            Ya, you did. Do you know what roles Hairston, Harris and Hu played? They were bench jockies. Subs. So, when you advocate using prospects in place of thsoe specific players, you are advocating having prospects ride the bench.

            And no, not all of our prospects are going to be full time starters on a good team. Most won’t. But, you don’t find that out by having them ride the bench on your big club. You give them a shot at a job when the opportunity arises.
            • Vinny B November 16, 2011 at 8:20 pm

              I don’t know why this is hard to understand.

              His point is, instead of wasting money on guys like Hairston and Harris, the Mets could use somebody like a Evans and Pridie instead to play the same role for a cheaper price, and give us about the same production – Evans and Pridie will never be starting major leaguers, everyone already knew that going into the season.

              And with the money we save by doing that, we can spend it on a better starting player that would help us win more games.

              It’s a simple concept, and it makes a lot of sense too.
              • XtreemIcon November 16, 2011 at 8:27 pm

                The other side of the coin is, you know what Evans and Pridie are. Hairston hit 17 HRs each of the prior two seasons and plays all three OF positions. Neither of them can come close to that production, and that potential value came at a cost of roughly 550K more. Hairston didn’t quite hit those marks, but it was certainly worth the gamble for an extra half a mil to improve the team.

                Harris, forget about. I hated that signing from jump street. I’d rather you have been the 25th guy.
              • Donal November 16, 2011 at 8:37 pm

                Harris brought versatility that Evans and Pridie didn’t. Granted, he didn’t perform as expected, but the process was there. And neither Evans nor Pridie showed themselves to be full major elaguers before last year. They are org guys and filler.
              • XtreemIcon November 16, 2011 at 8:57 pm

                Harris is a terrible baseball player. Just terrible. He brought nothing to the table. He’s bad offensively and bad defensively. He’s a terrible baserunner. He struck out over 20% of the time, which wasn’t a surprise because he did it in 2010, also. There is no redeeming upside to having Willie Harris on the roster. Just for kicks, he had a NEGATIVE WAR. Only five guys in all of baseball who qualified had a negative WAR. Harris didn’t qualify (thankfully he didn’t play enough), but he had a negative WAR.
              • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 9:45 pm

                Spot on Vinny!

                “His point is, instead of wasting money on guys like Hairston and Harris, the Mets could use somebody like a Evans and Pridie instead to play the same role for a cheaper price, and give us about the same production”
                With added bonus to that! IF they succeed you STILL OWN THEM!
                You STILL have them at League Minimum!
                You can then TRADE them for a long term fix if they aren’t already a piece to the LONG TERM PUZZLE!

                If we are destined to suck I would rather suck with what we own, evaluate it and maybe increase it’s value via MLB experience to make something from these guys they deem as nothing and taking a shot at a short term gain and a long term solution!

                But they don’t get it they REALLY want the salary to be low so they can play roatisserie every year finding the gold in the turn pile each year and then letting him go to do it all over again after the 1 year deal runs out!
              • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 9:48 pm

                X says…”The other side of the coin is, you know what Evans and Pridie are. Hairston hit 17 HRs each of the prior two seasons and plays all three OF positions. Neither of them can come close to that ”

                And neither did Hairston!
                You don’t KNOW what you have in Pridie or Evans, You never gave them regular playing time to adjust to MLB pitching!
                When both DID they put up better numbers!
                And if they can do AS MUCH as Hairston for HALF the price add to that they are young and can get BETTER!

                SO there is a much higher upside for them than there is for Hairston!
              • Donal November 16, 2011 at 10:21 pm

                Xtreem, Harris’s career K% is closer to 17% and that went up because of the last 2 years.

                Meh, whatever, I’m not going to rant on trying to defend Willie Harris. Just pointing out Metsie’s continued use of logical fallacies and lies.
              • XtreemIcon November 16, 2011 at 10:29 pm

                We can definitely agree on that last part.
              • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 10:52 pm

                Bottomline here X is this…

                Wasting 20 Mil on 10 players is really not that much different than wasting 20 Mil on one!
                Waste is Waste!

                And instead of getting 10 guys as 1-2 Mil each I would rather get decent one at 5 Mil Use another 5 Mil on 10 Kids and put that extra 10 Mil in my pocket for a guy like Reyes or an Ace that might actually make Harvey and Familia’s debut a competitive one!

                Take the 10 mil we would spend on those FAs and put it towards one GOOD player and if I want to gamble on fillers I would rather take a gamble that pays off for multiple years as opposed to one discount and then I’m paying full price anyway for them!
            • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 9:41 pm

              Yeah cause your genius went and bought players that suck!
              Not long term fixes, Didn’t use Kids that could have done AS MUCH as them for half the price, didn’t go get anyone who could TRULY help the team win…

              What did Sandy work on most in FA last offseason?

              BULLPEN!

              What part of our team sucked the most! VERY SAME BULLPEN!
              What players did he trade away?
              The BEST guy we had in the CRAPPY BULLPEN!

              Are you suggesting it’s an improvement to suck more and make your pen WORSE?
      • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 9:37 pm

        Your Right kev especially where Donal is concerned!
        Just ignore him as most everyone not names jessup do!

        Jessup has to pay attention to him because Donal is his only REAL cheerleader!
        Without him he has no real backup!
• Vinny B November 16, 2011 at 9:37 pm

  Here’s a good example: If the Mets didn’t sign Harris, Carrasco, and Boyer the Mets would have saved almost 3M.

  Now, the Mets could have used that 3M on a better RP. One guy who signed for 3M last year was Koji Uehara who had a 2.35 ERA 85k’s in 65 IP, and a 0.72 WHIP.

  So, instead of spending money on garbage(Carrasco, Boyer, and harris) the Mets could have gotten a VALUABLE piece to the bullpen for about same price.

  Now that’s what I’d call “smart spending”.
  • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 9:53 pm

    Exactly what I’m getting at Vinny.
    Spending on cheap crap gets youa LOT of CRAP!
    I don’t think we need MORE crap around here nor do we need to SPEND to get it!

    Hell I can throw just about any MiL guy if I really don’t care if I don’t win!
    For half the price of the guy I’m signing because I don’t care if I don’t win!

    It’s better to buy the ONE GOOD guy for HALF the amount I spent on crap and use the kids who cost half as much to fill the roster after that!

    If we are losing I would much rather lose with my own so if they do well I own them not have to pay them full price after giving them the priviledge of restoring their career with us!

    If we succeed with a signing like the one we made it doesn’t matter because they are gone the next year!

    If we succeed with a Kid like we did with Duda, Davis, Gee and Tejada we get to keep them and at league minimum for a few more years saving even more money and creating more payroll flexability because thats one less position we need to fill via FA!
  • alwayzamazin November 16, 2011 at 10:10 pm

    only if you can see the future! it is a crap shoot with the $1M players…if one works out, way ahead of the game than signing a long term contract
    • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 10:21 pm

      “if one works out, way ahead of the game than signing a long term contract”

      for that year and that year only!
      If he works out your not paying the same price anymore!

      Basically your PAYING a guy for a year to audition and then if he works out your STILL paying a muntiyear deal anyway!

      SO your making bets not INVESTMENTS!

      Betting you’ll get one good year and if you do thats it!
      Your right back to paying 4 mil for three years to keep him!

      Let him audition and prove himself on some other team!
      And play a kid instead who if he does well you STILL OWN HIM…SAME PRICE for three or four years!
  • Bayonne Mets Fan November 16, 2011 at 11:38 pm

    Like I said Vinny,

    You should be the GM or at the very least a few of us here working together would do a MUCH better job than Sandy Alderson and his crew. Yes I said it.

    We’ve been watching baseball too for most of our lives and we know the game too, and we’re confident in what we can do. Of course it would take time to learn the fundamentals of that tyep of work but as far as what to do to keep this team competitive during tough financial times you would be doing a better job than Alderson.

    I don’t get all why so many people are enamored with this guy? So far he’s proven to be nothing and if anything incompetent. Either incompetent or his plan is just BAD. We’ll see.
• srt November 16, 2011 at 10:06 pm

  You left out Putz off the ‘wasted spending’ list…..

  I’m all for resigning Reyes. I’ve been reading that the speculation is Reyes is more interested in the money than the years. Alderson has been quoted tonight as saying something along the lines of the years are more of a concern than the money. If both are true, depending on the highest non Met bid for Reyes, maybe a 4 year deal for a bit more money gets the deal done.

  With the limit on spending though – and for anyone who has been paying attention that’s all on the Wilpons and their financial mess – filling out the rest of the roster with the payroll limit is going to take some creativity.
  • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 10:15 pm

    Putz? Is that an Omar Signing? If so yes then add him too!

    As to your last line…”filling out the rest of the roster with the payroll limit is going to take some creativity.”
    Or some Minor Leaguers who with some experience might not be the busts people make them out to be!

    They cost half what the crap we have been buying costs. And that would leave us half to spend on one GOOD FA that actually might fill a hole as well!
• alwayzamazin November 16, 2011 at 10:26 pm

  omg metsie, i think we all know we are going to be watching some great rookies go into their 2nd season….so what are you looking for? ANOTHER big contract that will weigh us down for the next 6 years?
  • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 10:48 pm

    Weigh us down from what? Signing Hairston circa 2013 and Harris circa 2014?

    Is that going to solve out long term issues?

    Or are we going to wait and not spend a penny. Wait till the Lottery Gnome comes by and makes 8 ROY candidates show up in a single year before your going to try to build a team that can help Harvey and Familia win enough games to be Cy Young candidates?

    Signing Reyes doesn’t weigh us down from signing anyone because we plan to sign NO ONE in the next 4 or 5 years! At least not the next two years!

    And thats when Harvey and Familia are expected One more Wheeler should be here.
    Do you want to wait till then before you sign someone?

    Well here is the thing! By then Santana and Bays money can be used instead!
• alwayzamazin November 16, 2011 at 11:05 pm

  i don’t think this will be popular but i was done w/reyes when he bunted and came out of the last game of the season, first inning. that told me all i need to know about reyes.
  • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 11:17 pm

    “that told me all i need to know about reyes”

    Well what was it that you needed to know?
    That an MLB player who is winning the batting championship and was fighting through the pain of a tweaked hammy decided he did enough in a season and in a game that meant nothing
    Or if an MLB player coming up for his first BIG payday in FA decided to sit out and not get hurt becuase if he had he would kill off that big payday?

    I learned all I needed to know about Reyes before that last day!
    I learned he CAN be a batting chapion Above .300 Hitter when he is properly motivated!

    You what I learned on the same day you learned something?
    I learned (from your disappointment as well) that people DO GO just to see Jose Reyes even if the Mets are NOT in a playoff situation.
    I also learned that he was willing to risk getting hurt just so you COULD say goodbye DESPITE the fact you were happy to say GOODBYE!

    He showed you in that ONE AB why he is going to get the money he is going to get!
    But not going to get it for you because you don’t want him!
    • alwayzamazin November 16, 2011 at 11:58 pm

      hey i have no issues with reyes talent. it was bad how he ended his met’s career. i don’t really want him back for 120 and 6 years. he will not stay healthy. let him be some other teams prob
  • XtreemIcon November 16, 2011 at 11:32 pm

    Agreed. He’s a joke now.
  • Vinny B November 17, 2011 at 9:49 am

    I honestly don’t really care about that. All I care about is winning baseball games……And does signing Reyes for the next 5, 6 years or whatever, help the Mets win more games? YES.

    I’m not going to make my team weaker, just because he did something that a lot of major league players have done in the past, including Ryan Bruan just a few days before when he was leading Reyes.
    • Metsie November 17, 2011 at 10:04 am

      The prblem here Vinny is that we have three or four guys who are taking the “Any Port In a Storm” approach!

      They don’t really care about the last ab of the last game by Jose reyes.

      They are just looking for ANY excuse they can find to say DO NOT SIGN HIM!

      Just as they are grasping at this LONG TERM straw they say we are doing without any fact to prove there is anything done to date that actually improves the long term!

      It WILL be a long term before we win a WS at this rate!
      Could be a 100 Year plan at the rate we are going and by the decisions we have been making towards keep and purge!

      If your good and worth Kids off you go!
      If your not worth anything but under 4 Mil per year your a keeper!

      Doesn’t matter if you suck, have a kid who could do just as well…Just as long as it looks good in the ledger!

      All of these excuses being made about reyes and budget and LONT TERM are all attempts at PAINTING this dismantling of the franchise as something good!

      And people will buy it for another year at most.
      Then Sandy gets sent away as well and then the REAL build the REAL Plan will be put into place!
      • Met Maniac November 17, 2011 at 10:24 am

        There is one big difference I can see or rather I can foresee. I bet that if Alderson re-signs Reyes for lets say 6/$110. His supporters will find ways to justify it and completely abandon their current platforms that he’s not worth more than a 3 or 4 year deal. I bet you wont see one post on Amazin Avenue calling out Sandy Alderson for giving Reyes a terrible contract or the saber guys who write here. Of course Cerrone will revers his course because he just blows with the wind, but lets see what happens. Meanwhile if Reyes does re-sign, I’ll be the first to applaud Alderson for the first time since he became GM.
        • Metsie November 17, 2011 at 3:18 pm

          I bet your right!

          All of a sudden if Sandy signed him for even 6.120M they will try to spin it as he crafted and outsmarted Reyes into a great deal!

          Thats cause facts, history and truth is just something to be smeared around when trying to prove a load of bull!

          It masks the smell!
• alwayzamazin November 16, 2011 at 11:35 pm

  ok ” also learned that he was willing to risk getting hurt just so you COULD say goodbye DESPITE the fact you were happy to say GOODBYE!”

  he was risking his health by BUNTING? i wasn’t thrilled to say goodbye to the gye, i was watching from the comfort of my sofa and didn’t pay money to see it…i still think it was a crappy way to go out. Ryan Braun went 0-4 that night. Reyes should have had the balls to stay in the game.
  • Metsie November 16, 2011 at 11:51 pm

    No he was risking his health by whatever he would have done in the other 3 Abs he would have got if he stayed in!

    He bunted, He got on base didnt’t he?

    THATS why he is going to get paid what he does!
    Because the guy gets on and doesn’t need the pitcher to allow him to do it!
    • alwayzamazin November 17, 2011 at 12:07 am

      waaait- of course he got on base- but jose was more concerned with the batting title then the game/fans
      metsie you gotta let reyes go, he’s not worth it
      • Metsie November 17, 2011 at 3:20 pm

        Jose already HAD the batting title!
        Took it from Braun three days before when Braun sat out the game after HE took the lead!

        Reyes didn’t need that AB at ALL!

        He could have sat out the entire game and STILL won it!

        He only went in so the folks who came to see him off could see what they were going to be missing because Sandy likes drafting not spending!
        And two 2nd rounders is better to Sandy than an All Star, Batting Champ and potential HOFer combined!
• Met Maniac November 17, 2011 at 10:24 am

  Great post Metsie, keep ‘em coming.
  • Metsie November 17, 2011 at 3:22 pm

    Thanks Maniac…
    With all the crap about long term plans I thought maybe it was actually time to show people what a PLAN actually looks like!
    LOL
    Cause I haven’t seen one yet from the FO other than Nah lets not spend/keep that!