9
2011
Always More To The Story
An article by 
What if there is more to the Jose Reyes and NY Mets negotiations than we all are assuming?
I’m guilty of one thing, I like to think outside the box and sure I may be totally wrong here but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible.
To set up my point, I think back to July 30, 2004. A day most Mets fans remember as the day they gave away Scott Kazmir.
The Kazmir deal is pretty interesting when you look back on it today.
When Kazmir was traded, the majority of insightful Mets fans were upset about the fact Victor Zambrano was the return, but mostly they were upset because the Mets just dealt away what we all knew was going to be a superstar.
Right? Didn’t we all know, that we had a star in the system with Kazmir?
Yet, the Mets gave up on him so easily. As time went by, it came out that the Mets did not feel Kazmir would live up to his potential. In fact, we kept hearing about how he was bound to be injury prone based on the way he throws.
Sure, they got a terrible return for the guy based on his hype…but they were dead on with regards to his potential injury problems. In fact, Kazmir’s career essentially ended at age 25. Sure, he bounces around from here to there, but he’ll never live up to the hype.
I believe teams know more about their own players than everybody else. Why wouldn’t they?
People wonder why the Mets have been so slow to discuss a contract with Reyes, and I contend it’s a smart play because they are now able to measure the market for him.
People forget that everybody knew Jose Reyes was technically available for trade during the 2011 season. There’s no chance if another GM called Alderson and asked about Reyes that he hung up on them.
So, right there, we already have Alderson measuring the market for Reyes’ talents. Granted, it could have been on a rental basis, but he’s still able to gauge another GM’s needs and how badly they want Jose Reyes on their team. It also gives Alderson an idea of how much value they attribute to Reyes.
Jose Reyes has been on the DL 7 times since joining the Mets. Sandy Alderson has been the GM for a little less than a year now, and during that time, Reyes has been on the DL twice.
When John Lackey was a free agent with the Angels, everybody knew the Angels were not going to overpay for him. Why do you think that is? You think they didn’t like Lackey? If that were the case wouldn’t they have gotten rid of him on their own?
Isn’t it strange that John Lackey spends his entire career with 1 team, then that 1 team doesn’t come close to over-paying for him and then Lackey hits a sharp decline which eventually ends with Tommy John Surgery?
One thing that always bothered me about Jose Reyes was his involvement with Tony Galea.
For those that do not remember, Galea was the Toronto based Doctor who was being investigated by the FBI for drug violations, including conspiring to smuggle human growth hormone into the United States from Canada.
Let me be clear about one thing. I’m not suggesting that Jose Reyes took HGH. I have no evidence of such a thing.
However, in today’s game which stands in the shadow of the steroid era, I find it hard to just blindly “accept” that an athlete visits a Doctor being investigated for HGH. Reyes visited Galea for a “blood spinning” procedure, which “didn’t work.”
My bringing this up is not in any way to sully Jose Reyes’ name, or to accuse him of anything. It’s to show that there is always more to signing a player to a long-term contract than just “he’s exciting, he won a batting title this year and the fans like him.”
Fans for the most part see a player, and think in the present. That is why fans generally are not GM’s. If you’re signing Reyes to a 5 year contract, you have to project what he’ll be in 2015. If you’re signing him to a 7 year deal, what will he be in 2017?
There’s always more going on behind the scenes. It seems like fans have made huge assumptions lately, as though Alderson is sitting in his office playing Angry Birds and drinking tea. He’s not a dumb man.
The best part about Sandy Alderson in my estimation is he does NOT think like a fan. I felt Minaya did. That’s not always a bad thing. At the end of the day, this franchise in 2011 needs a leader that thinks about the long term implications of every move they make.
Signing Reyes to me is a more complex decision than most fans give Alderson or the Mets credit for. You cannot deny his injury history, you cannot deny the fact that players get slower with age, and you cannot deny the fact that in all likelihood the Mets are getting 2010 Jose Reyes and not 2011 for the length of his contract.
There’s nothing wrong with 2010 Reyes, he just isn’t worth an open checkbook.
I often think of this situation like this, “If Jose Reyes were a homegrown player somewhere else, and hit the open market, would you want the Mets to sign him to a Crawford like deal?”
If Reyes signs somewhere for 5 years, and roughly $100million and it comes out that the Mets wouldn’t match then, then yeah I will wonder why and want an explanation.
If Reyes signs a Crawford like deal that MANY of us looked at and suggested it was a bad move, then I’m sorry but I will bid Reyes adieu and wish him luck. If Crawford’s deal was a bad idea for a team like Boston, then there’s no way it could be a good idea for the 2012 Mets.
My loyalty as a fan is to the name on the front of the jersey. In today’s game, players come and players go. It’s sad to see, but one must think about what is best for the franchise. I hope Jose Reyes is a Met when Spring Training opens up, and I hope if he is, that his contract is one that allows the Mets the flexibility to pursue other areas of need and never once will they look to “dump his salary.”
About the Author: Michael J. Branda
My time with MMO began in July of 2009 when I wrote a Fan Post defending Omar Minaya (before it was cool to do that.) I grew up a Mets fan with the mid 1980's teams. My favorite Met of all-time is (and was) Wally Backman. When it comes to sabermetrics versus old school thinking, I like to think I meet in the middle. I believe thinking of new ways to get answers is helpful, especially when the same way has not produced results. However, I think over-thinking certain situations can get you into trouble. I'm excited for the new regime, because I believe they have pieces in place to focus on several aspects of the Mets organization. I've waited this long for a World Series, waiting a few more years for another chance isn't going to kill me.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 25 | 18 | .581 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 21 | .523 | 2.5 |
| Phillies | 21 | 23 | .477 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 17 | 24 | .415 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 12 | 32 | .273 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/19/2013
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Right on!!! Thank you – finally someone who approaches this issue with some reasoning.
This was awesome!! Absolutely makes sense and I feel the exact same way.
thanks Hawkman and Matt
This is simply stated”the real deal with Jose”. Love the guy. Crawford money….not quite. The name on the front of the jersey is all that it takes to get me going. Alderson will put a team on the field. I will root for that team, my team, the NEW YORK METS!
thanks metfan4life!
I am as big a fan of Reyes as there is however; I have already given up hope that he’ll be back. Being a latino, I know one thing…being that Hanley Ramirez is Reyes’ daughters godfather (compadres) is huge here. That tells me that are the very best of friends and money may not be the biggest issue for Reyes to want to play with him. Being compadres in our culture is HUGE. Check out the pros below and couple that with the Mets dragging their feet, zero playoff hopes for a long while, and cheap owners.
Pros for him to go…
1. Compradre is Hanley Ramirez
2. New ballpark
3. Team willing to spend this winter (finally)
4. Big cash!
Nice knowing you Jose, Jose, Jose.
METSr1, I BELIEVE U ARE MISTAKEN Re GODFATHER STATUS, I’VE RECENTLY READ HIS AGENT UNDER GREENBERG IS THE GODFATHER; BUT I KNOW THE BFF STATUS OF REYES/HANLEY EXISTS AS I THINK REYES WAS HANLEY’S BESTMAN OR VICE VERSA.
JESSEP’S COMMENTS Re. ORGANIZATIONS BEING BEST VERSED IN THEIR OWN PLAYERS WOULD BE MORE MEANINGFUL IF THE DECISIONS ON KAZMIR & REYES WERE BEING EVALUATED & DETERMINED BY ACTUAL VETTED BASEBALL MINDS & NOT AS IN KAZMIR’S CASE, A SCHMUCK BEFUDDLED NEPOTISM BENEFICIARY LIKE JEFF WILPON WHO, AT THE TIME, CLEARLY ADMITTED HIS INVIOLVEMENT AS HIS RESPONSE TO EXCITEMENT HE WAS HEARING ON WFAN AS CALLERS BELIEVED IN OUR CHANCES; BUT WERE DECIDEDLY INSISTANT UPON IMPROVED PITCHING.
JESSEP’S A TAD IRRESPONSIBLE IN NOT MENTIONING THE INTERNAL KAZMIR CONCERNS WEREN’T MADE PUBLIC UNTIL AFTER “THE MOBS OUTSIDE THE STADIUM LIT THEIR TORCHES” AS WELL AS EVEN MENTIONING REYES’ SPIN TREATMENT BY DR. G IN TORONTO AT THE RECOMMENDATION OF BOTH BELTRAN & BORAS, BELTRAN’S AGENT, “JUST TRYING TO HELP”
PERSONALLY, AS I’VE MENTIONED IN OTHER COMMENTARY, REYES’ DEBUT @ AGE 19 SEVERELY HAMSTRUNG HIS PUBLIC OPINION FORMATION(PUN MOST CERTAINLY INTENDED)
DEPITE JESSEP’S RATHER BIASED APPROACH TO COUNTING D/L STINTS IT’S MUCH MORE IMPORTANT TO CONSIDER HIS ACTIVELY PRODUCING BY PLAYING IN 76% OF ALL THE GAMES HE WAS PAID TO PLAY THROUGHOUT HIS 8Y CAREER IN NY.
I ASSERT THAT FROM HIS DEBUT @ AGE 19 IN 2003, ALL WE’VE EVER HEARD WAS HIS IMMEASURABLE POTENTIAL &HOW HE HADN’T FULFILLED THAT POTENTIAL. THAT MAY BE APROPRIATE FOR A YR OR TWO; BUT 7 YRS? 8 YRS? CONSIDERING IT TOOK HIM ALL THOSE YEARS JUST TO REACH WHAT IS CONSIDERED HIS PRIME PRODUCTIVITY PERIOD(AGES 28-32) BUILT IN THE FEELING OF CONSTANT FAILURE TO ACHIEVE. IN NY.(FOR EXAMPLE UTLEY & HOWARD DEBUTED @ AGE 25 JUST 3Y FROM THEIR PRIME), REYES HAS TOO OFTEN BEEN DIFINED BY WHAT HE HADN’T ACCOMPLISHED THAN ALL THAT HE DID ACCOMPLISH SO MUCH SO THAT HIS CROWNING AS NL BATTING CHAMPION LAST SEASON EMITS MORE COMMENTARY OF “IT’S ABOUT TIME! THAN CHEERS FROM THOSE SUPPOSED TO SUPPORT HIM.
CERTAINLY, IMO, THESE CONCERNS OVER HIS D/L TIME ARE LUDICROUS AS EVERY SINGLE DYNAMIC BASERUNNER IN MLB HISTORY HAS HAD SIMILAR CONCERNS, FOR INSTANCE RICKEY HENDERSON PLAYED IN 76% OF HIS CONTRACTED GAMES AS WELL VINCE COLEMAN, 65%.
NOT WORTH OPENING THE WALLET? LOST INVESTMENT? WHY? ISN’T THAT WHAT CONTRACT DISABILITY INSURANCE IS FOR? LOST PRODUCTIVITY?
BS. 76% OF REYES IS MUCH MORE PREFERABLE THAN 0%. IF TEJADA IS SERVICABLE AS B/U IF REYES LEAVES, WHY WOULD THERE BE CONCERN OVER HIS BACKFILLING 24% OF THE TIME? HE’S CHEAP ENOUGH FOR LONG ENOUGH.
SEE HOW THE GOLDEN LIGHT OF LOGIC SHRIVELS UP THOSE DISATISFACTION JUSTIFICATIONS.
ALL THIS TALK OVER CRAWFORD TYPE CONTRACT. I’VE BEEN AVARICLY CONSUMING EVERY SHRED OF INK OR WEB CONTENT ON THE REYES ISSUE SINCE IT’S INCEPTION AND DO NOT RECALL ANYONE FROM REYES’ CAMP EVER MENTIONING CRAWFORD’S DEAL AS A GUIDEPOST. IT’S PRIMARILY BEEN A PRESS FABRICATION RESPONDED TO BY THE CHAIR-NEBBISH, FRED LAST APRIL.
FINALLY, JESSEP IF U ARE INSISTANT UPON COUNTING D/L STINTS LIKE COUP; HOW ABOUT SANTANA’S ANNUAL SURGERY FEST?
Thank you for making the point on Kazmir. That’s the same thing I will say to all Mets fans about Zack Wheeler. The guy is damaged goods and his fate will be worse than Kazmir because he wont even make it to the majors. When Alderson gets done patting himself on the back, he’ll have more egg on his face that the Devil Rays did when they realized what they got for Zambrano wasn’t that great. The difference is they traded Victor Zambrano while we traded Carlos Beltran.
Zach Wheeler is damaged goods? What proof do you have outside of a cracked fingernail in his pro debut season? He actually was better for the Mets after the trade than for the Giants. I have not read any reports of injury on Wheeler. I have read some reports that his mechanics may, and I stress “MAY”, lead to problems down the road. But that does NOT make him damaged goods. And besides that, if they had kept Beltran they would have not gotten compensation for him signing elsewhere this winter. And who knows what another team would’ve traded for him other than the Giants knowing they couldn’t get draft picks for him. In this one case I will applaud Alderson for a job well done.
Well said 86. If you applied that critera, then everytime time a trade is made, we should assume that one team is always gettting back damaged goods. That is just silly!
So you contend to know more than the team that got rid of him like he had the plague? That was the point of this guys article. That if a team is so will to get rid of a player, maybe there is more to it than you or the public think. Come on really. Lets trade out top pitching prospect for a broken down 2 month rental with bad knees. Use your brain. By the end of this season Wheeler will be in an operating room having career threatening surgery. I’m positive of it.
Again, based upon your criteria we are to assume that Wheeler is soon to be washed up. You are talking about a Giants team that is flush with good pitchers at every level. If the Yankees traded Montero for pitching, does that mean that he too is damaged? Does that mean that the team trading piching is trading damaged goods? Or could it be that Yankees are loaded with good catchers in the minors? Here it is in a nut shell…The Giants loaded with pitching at every level traded Wheeler for a player that they thought would put them over the top. This is the same stuff that has happens every year by many teams for the last hundred years! You use your brain! If Wheeler has “career threatening surgery” this season as you write, I’ll be the first to say you were right.
I think it’s more attributed to the following:
- They are a pitching rich team (SF) and could afford to let a prospect go
- They were in the thick of defending their WS, and lacked offense
- There were talks of their CF prospect coming over, but they refused to part with him because they as slim on the positional player prospects
- Beltran is good
- SF seems to overvalue others peoples trades/FAs, see Roward, Zito, Beltran, etc.
The perfect storm of the above led to the Wheeler trade. You can’t just say everyone who trades a prospect knows that player and most likely they are broken goods.
Thanks for helping me apply some common sense NJ!
Are any of you familiar with the principle known as Occam’s Razor?
Basically it says that when faced with competing hypothesis, the one that makes the fewest assumptions is the most accurate.
The Giants traded their top pitching prospect for a broken down rental because they devalued him based on their inside information.
When a team puts their top prospect on the trade block, there should follow a dozen other competing offers from other teams. That didn’t happen. As Alderson fans, I think you’re biased and don’t realize it.
I think this was a simple game of a staring contest, not some Alderson love fest. First man to blink lost. SF blinked. Had this been their other Pitching prospect or the CF prospect, would that have put you more at ease or would it be that Alderson was fleeced?
you have it backward. There were no competing offers because there was only 1 Beltran.
He was the rare goods being purchased. It wasn’t wheeler being shopped.
Belt was their top prospect, not Wheeler.
The Giants traded a valuable prospect from a place they were deep at for an All Star level outfielder because they were completely flat offensively.
I’d say this was one those rare deals where both sides got what they wanted (SF did miss the playoffs, but not because Beltran underperformed).
Even if Wheeler becomes a Cy Young winner, I don’t think Sabean made a bad deal. His team is in win now mode and flags fly forever.
Same proof jessup just gave to say Reyes is probably damaged good, the team that gave up on him must know something about their own player!
Didn’t you read what jessup said?
5 years/100 million doesn’t sound smart to me. I’m betting it doesn’t to Alderson either.
You also cannot deny the buisness ramifications of Reyes signing elsewhere. There might be six people in the stands next year and that won’t help the situation.
As opposed to the 81 sell out games this year?
It will get worst. Die hard fans have been holding out the past couple years more and more. The occasional fan was coming to the games to watch guess who and it aint Mike Pelfrey. So what if he they overspend to keep him. maybe if they are lucky they can flip him three or four years down the road when they have a legitimate SS in the waiting pattern. Right now this team is pracariously perched on the ledge of being the worst team in their division. I can not see how not signing Reyes will help this. I hope that he doesn’t need 7 years and a gizinta dollars and if so well thems the breaks but if the contract is even remotely reasonable the Mets should do it just to keep the team watchable until they have developed better talent or whatever.
The Wilponzi’s didn’t bring in Alderson to help them spend big. They brought him in (from the Commissioners office no less) to help them curb spending while drafting for the future. If anyone thought that he was going to spend, wasn’t reading the tea leaves correctly. He will build this team into a winner, eventually. We are going to suffer for a few years while it happens, but he will draft better than Omar and receive draft picks for losing the likes of Reyes, and maybe Wright next off season unless he’s traded during this season ala Beltran. It’s the early 80′s all over!
money aside, job 1 was to rebuild the organization top to bottom after the tony/omar years.
rebuilding the foundation needed to happen regardless of whether they had 95 or 145 mill to blow on payroll this year.
and that does not just mean get more draft picks/prospects. it means putting in a strong, consistant, player development process. that pays dividends even for big payroll teams (like the yanks or sox).
And as much as some people like to dump on Agee for being a “braves fan”, he is right about one thing. the Braves have, for years, had an exceptionally good player development system.
Prospects are like raw ingrediants. You can give 2 differnet chefs the same stuff, and get meals of vastly different quality from them!
in BB terms, some teams get more out of lesser talents and other teams seem to get less out of better players.
Ok can you please identify for me the foundational changes made to date?
As for the Braves they have their devlopment success because they lost for quite awhile, Collected a good number of kids in the proccess then when those kids came up and showed success they did not have to trade off MiL players wholesale to get player and as a result never used their MiLs to build their MLB club so they kept them and had them when they needed them.
When was the last BLOCKBUSTER trade made by the Braves where three or four kids went for a MLB player?
How many times have they done that since 1990?
Sandy has made some changes to the scouting dept, but I fail to see any major changes at the MiL or development areas.
I fail to see any bolstering of the Minors other than Wheeler!
Thier top pick in the draft was an 18 year old who had never played in a regimented baseball league until we got him.
The Biggest change has been fast tracking Backman to AAA Manager!
So I would love to hear the foundational changes Sandy has made that fixes the “PROBLEMS” we had with our foundation.
The SAME foundation that has produced: Davis, Duda, Tejada, Harvey, Familia, Mejia, Havens, Flores, Neuwehuis, Gee, Niese and probably some others I’m forgetting.
You can’t tell me those guys are NOT superstars and then try and tell me Wheeler and Nimmo ARE in the same breath!
Nor can you say they are going to be!
The split on this site seems to be between optimists and pessimists!
One side is optimistic about the recent MiL promotions and farm and pessimistic about the MLB squad around them (mostly becaue they keep leaving!) and the FO that send the good players away
The Other side seems to be pessimists about the MLB Squad, the MiL squad and the only thing they seem optimistic about is Sandy cutting Payroll plus Nimmo and Wheeler!
What is funny though is that if the ones who think the foundation was ruined would just give the names I listed a chance to prove themselves in the same way they are ready to accept Wheeler and Nimmo as Team saviors we might find that the MIDDLE is precisely where we are! We have a good number of Kids to build with and around and if we have a few GOOD VETS to lead them they can hold the line until the rest of those promising MiL pitchers and players come up that would allow us to cut Santana and Bay in two years, Save MORE than the money Reyes is going to get, By then Wheeler and Nimmo should be less than a year or two away and we could ACTUALLY be competitive by 2013-14 as oppsed to the 2015-16 you all seem to think is when the refuse from the wrecking ball you plan to take to the roster is cleaned up and your ready to rejoin the MLB!
They have all been addressed as they happened but it’s just that it seems you don’t agree with the moves done so far.
You had 1st a staff that was put together that the next year or 2 we will know if it will pay dividends.
You had free agent moves done based on if you believe it or not limited payroll flexibility to try and field a 25 man roster.
You had the minor league scouting system changed. A move that will again take time to see if it will pay dividends.
You had our home grown ss entering his final year and the GM is saying he wants to see him play before getting into any negotiations. A move that considering the recent injury history was not difficult to understand.
You had 2 players released during Spring Training rather than bringing them North. A move that many thought was never going to happen due to the considerable cost in payroll the team would have to absorb.
You had a closer traded in what was a straight salary dump that had been speculated would be difficult to do due to no team wanting to take on a vesting option that would see the closer make $17M. Yet somehow the right team was found where that (vesting option) would not be a problem. This after Boras just became the new agent and telling anyone who would listen his client if traded would be to be a closer and not a setup man and yet that is exactly what he became.
You then had a CF having a better than anyone could of expected season for a prospect that many in the days before said was not possible in attaining.
Now we have a great ss exploring free agency and we wait to see how that ends up. We also await to see what other moves are done pending the results of where Reyes ends up.
The foundation is a W.I.P. that I have given a 2 to 3 year window where I expect to see it start paying off and a 5 year window where if things are not and getting worse or just as bad as last season I will be 1st to start asking for him (Alderson) to be fired.
Right now I am in a wait and see approach and judging based on what actually is done and the results of that rather than the speculation of what may await.
MNJ other than the Hitting coach and some scouts, Name the outside CHANGES to our foundation!
All we did was move the peices we had around and not much to actually change the bricks just rearrange them!
The FO went through a massive change and thats pretty much the only thing that has changed for the most part!
Where is this foundation?
I see lots of foundation going but don’t see any improvement from the new bricks they plan on using to replace them with!
Who replaced Beltran? Who replaced K-Rod? Who is going to replace Reyes?
Duda? Parnell and Tejada?
Thats a better foundation?
I don’t know what your looking for. They have fired and hired new scouts and personal to over see different factions of the minors They replaced a player with a promising prospect and they got out from under what for the team would of been a huge salary burden when many though it could not be done.
It is like I said the moves are being done it is just that you don’t agree with them. Which is fine to each his own but since your asking what they are I am sharing you what I see them as being.
Who MNJ? What are the names?
Your going to see that they didn’t bring in a lot of outside guys just moves the same pieces around the board!
Your ASSUMING they made major changes to the foundation but can you name them?
OK Metsie If you don’t agree that they hired and fired scouts we will agree once again to disagree and leave it at that. As far as I can recall they have made changes to the scouting system and also the other moves I have also mentioned are what I described as the foundational changes that have been addressed.
MNJ do scouts make the kids we draft better? Do they DEVELOP these kids in the Minors?
They have fired FEW people in the MiL development department and mostly hired a new head of player development.
Who have the brought in from outside to train the harvey’s and Familia’s?
All they really have done is move around the guys they had!
Don’t take my word for it take a look at the coaching and development guys in the Minors there has been no major changes there just pieces that got moved around or took over for the guy they USED to work for!
Again they have made changes. Have they fired everyone or almost everyone or more than half of the staff in the minor league system and brought in new people? No but honestly I don’t think any team does that.
They have reevaluated the system and staff and addressed and made changes where they felt it was most needed and I expect will continue to evaluate and make changes where needed.
Again the point is that changes have already been made and I expect more to come now do some people agree with them or feel that they have done enough? Obviously some don’t but I am addressing what how I see things regarding your original question about foundational changes and that as I have said when I 1st commented changes that you just don’t agree with as far as foundational changes.
Here are 2 articles that talk about some of those changes which speaks to some of the changes I discussed earlier.
espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/tag/_/name/dick-scott
articles.nydailynews.com/2011-02-09/sports/28550629_1_mets-executive-veteran-scouts-cincinnati-gm-wayne-krivsky
Anyways to close your original question was, “Ok can you please identify for me the foundational changes made to date?”
I identified them as I saw them and prefaced it with saying, “They have all been addressed as they happened but it’s just that it seems you don’t agree with the moves done so far.”
As I expected when I replied you don’t see them as you describe foundational changes.
Basically MNJ, They changed the scouting dept (from the links you posted) which is fine but hardly what I would call a foundational shift. I don’t see where our drafting was any real issue when you look at all the names that are here and about to be here.
Davis, Murphy, Tejada, Duda, Gee, Niese, Havens, Flores, Harvey, Familia, Mejia, Neuwenhuis, etc…etc…
They changd the Mil FC who came from teams that are not much better at developing talent than we were Toronto and Houston?
But lets look at the other parts of the foundation…
Pitching has been a problem the last two or three years, partly because of Santana being hurt but more importantly our BP has been pretty much a revolving door the past two years our Starters have regressed (exception Dickey) and yet we retain the same Pitching coach from the foundation that we have supposedly replaced.
Where is our MiL Pitching Guru? Frank Viola?
You MIGHT be able to say they have changed the foudation of their THINKING and changed the scouting to reflect that but I have seen no changes in coaching to reflect a new foundational approach to developing those kids.
What I see is a massive change in the TOP DOWN area but isn’t foundational change really change made from the ground up?
Thats all I’m saying here!
If the foundation is bad then we need more change than just who manages the kids but someone who is goingto TEACH them new FUNDAMENTALS that makes these kids better than
Davis, Murphy, Tejada, Duda, Gee, Niese, Havens, Flores, Harvey, Familia, Mejia, Neuwenhuis, etc…etc…
And while changing the foundation in the Minors is all well and good, what good is it if the FOUNDATION that is here to make these guys MAINTAIN whatever it is we think we are going to instill in them on the farm is degraded the way it has been for guys like Pelfrey and Niese who under the tutelage of Warthen have gotten worse not better!
Or the revolving door of Pen arms who can’t even get the basic THROW STRIKES to stop all the blown leads?
Hale went on his own.
Two of the CHANGES they actually made to the coaching this year were to guys they promoted not Omar!
They were SUPPOSED to be the new foundation of coaching!
They changed the BP coach well about time!
Now tell me does it make sense to START with the MiL foundation and just stick with the same faulty MLB foundation we have seen fail the last three years?
Cause no matter how good the MiL system does it’s all for naught unless that foundation is maintained on the MLB level!
I don’t have much more I can add Metsie. I answered your original question and your reply fits with what was expected. All we can do now is see if the moves pay off and react accordingly. As usual it was a good discussion and hopefully we can revisit this down the road and see where things are at that time.
Have a good one Metsie.
Although Jessup makes a lot of great points in this piece, I am still disturbed by the drastic cut in payroll for a New York team—and fear that attendance will be way down (continuing the negative trend). This is due to the Wilponzis and Bud Selig. A $95-110 million dollar budget for a NYC team! Come on!
Trust me, I agree. Being a Met fan right now SUCKS! The Wilponzi’s get screwed and instead of selling the team, they screw the fans. Thanks Fred Coupon!
the early eighties it took like 8 years to get back on track,so we should just buy into this crap until we eventually get a winner.sounds like fun.
Cashen took 4 years.
no it took longer than that,and when he did get the team back on track he did it with good trades and signings not a team full of homegrown 26 year olds.
Nope, the 1984 Mets went 90-72 and it went uphill from there.
Also, he traded away a very popular Maz to get Ron Darling and Walt Terrell (who was traded for HoJo).
He traded to get Hernandez and Carter with prospects that came up through his farm system.
His 2 big free agent signings were Foster and Kingman, who were pretty much busts.
Foster was a trade for Alex Trevino.
My bad. You’re right. I think Foster was a Santana like deal in that he was traded for then got a new contract. Either way, he was a disappointment.
sub .500 seasons for a New York team? COME ON!
That is a bigger concern.
I agree too. 95M? That’s really hard to believe especially when it includes 40M to Santana and Bay who at this point are extremely questionable about their performance going forward.
If for whatever reason you cannot spend 125M a year for a competitive competent team then you should do the right thing and sell it to someone who can, after all it was the business model that the Wilpon prefers that has led to this whole series of big expectations followed by big disappointment that has caused the attendance to be so volatile.
Ramp up interest at ticket selling time by importing an Appier Vaughn, Alomar, Burnitz, Bonilla, Cedeno, Weathers, Bay and getting their worst years instead of spending 1/25th of that money on drafting and signing a whole slew of the highest caliber talent available that would all get up here together at the same time 4-7 years down the road and provide the opportunity to keep it going for more than three years followed by a crash.
It’s was also their business practice with the new stadium that moved season ticket holders from the upper deck behind home plate to the upper deck behind the LF foul pole when they were flying high on demand when the new stadium opened. Then when the team crumbled the fans made the call NOT to renew. That’s at least as big an issue regarding attendance as the teams performance.
The Wilpon also DECREASED supply in order to price gouge if things went they way they hoped all the while cheaping out behind the scenes by drafting the cheapest players and doing the same internationally with just a couple of exceptions and even selling 1st round draft choices to avoid having to pay the signing bonus.
To me even if Reyes missed 6 weeks every year on the DL (which I don’t think he will) he would still be worth 5/100 because of what he does do on the field when he’s healthy. He does play every game and he plays damn hard, provides terrific offense from a spot you normally don’t get a lot of O from, plays that position very well and runs the bases great. All 3 facets of the game, not one or one and a half like most of our guys.
He would also represent a bridge from the failed attempt to buy a team to the kids on the way up and realistically speaking Reyes/Tejada is so much superior in every facet than Tejada/Turner/Murphy/Valdespin/Havens/Satin AND makes the bench better and helps unclog the roster (with a couple of trades of our duplicate homegrown types)
As for the blood spinning who knows what really went on in Canada? Beltran also visited the same Dr. and his issue was clearly about recirculating blood into his knee to promote healing without surgery. My wife had the same procedure done in 2008 or 2009 in the US for a torn tendon and the medical equipment sales guy brought the equipment into the office so it was somewhat recently approved in the US at that time and may not have been available here when Jose went. The procedure I believe has been proven not to work since then.
I don’t expect Jose to hit .350 again but I do believe he’ll be a better hitter than he has been average wise since he got here. I think he realizes a big part of his success was laying off that junk he used to pop up off his front foot and that alone increases his BA and leads to more walks and more good pitches to hit. As for his D no one in the system right now, with the possible exception of Tovar (who could be a rule 5 casualty) can defend SS the way Reyes can and with a whole slew of station to station types (or ones that should just accept that they are) is invaluable on the bases.
I really don’t see why 5/100 with a 10 M player option, promise not to offer arb if he’s a type A, limited no trade wouldn’t be in everyone’s best interest. Reyes gets a guaranteed 110M, can be a free agent again at 33 where salaries are bound to be even bigger and we get the chance to have #7 in the lineup through out his prime and eventually on the fence next to Seaver, Gil and Casey.
Agee, question for you. how does not offering arbitration at the end of a contract benefit the player? I didn’t quite understand it when it happened with Beltran. what did Beltran get out of the clause in his contract that said he couldn’t be offered arbitration? He become a free agent and is gonna get his money anyway, no?
It means the team that signs him doesn’t have to surrender draft picks, making his acquisition purely years and money.
that I know, but my question is HOW it benefits the player. why would the player want that clause in his contract is what I’m asking.
Because the current trend among teams is to highly value prospects. Signing Beltran doesn’t come with that caveat, meaning he has more value.
THought it started out very negative. Glad I read it all. You are spot on t agee.
Good job Jessep & well said.
thanks NJStuck!
Jessup you make a great point that teams SHOULD know their own players better than anyone else!
Here are more examples for your argument:
Pedro Martinez – Red Sox passed on him because of worries he would get hurt and did!
Jason Bay – They refused to make a big commitment to him as well. They look pretty smart right now!
But that also applies as was stated to guys like Wheeler. He was given up by a team who has had a very good track record evaluating starting pitching and gave him up for a rental!
In ANY trade or move of a player the bottom line is the team that lets him go thinks less of him than the team that gets him.
The Stock Market is predicated on such behavior. The Buyer thinks it’s going up, the seller thinks it’s going down!
What is important is who is right!
We assume beltran was going to miss a ton of games last year. Did he?
He missed 20!
Will he miss a lot this year? We will see!
In the cases of health yes most teams should know more about their player than anyone else as they don’t post medical reports on the stat sheets!
BUT players who have a history of injuries can also in time build up the muscles that give them problems because they have focused on them so often during rehab that those problems can go away!
Proper resting can also remove the injury risk and maybe Reyes is one of those that should be kept out of day games after night games to keep those lotus legs from getting worn out.
The bottomline here is regardless of how LONG a career you think Reyes is going to have,
JUST LIKE getting Wheeler a pitcher whose team gave up on for a rental was getting SOMETHING for beltran what are you getting for Reyes here?
Could be a sandwich and 2nd rounder if the Marlins sign him.
Is that enough?
The guy is an allstar and all your going to get are the equivilent of 2 2nd rounder?
How many guys did we trade to get gary carter?
How many did we get for Seaver?
Hell How many did we trade to get Rusty Staub?
Did we get VALUE for Beltran with only one player under the concept you just posted?
Are we going to get full value for reyes if the Markins sign him?
One thing to say we made a proper assesment on how durable reyes will be!
But making that assesment correctly should not constitute giving him away for nothing!
And thats precisely what we might be doing!
Even two years of reyes could be more than those picks might ever contribute!
And the most important thing here is the fact that Reyes doesn’t make the ATTENDANCE issue worse! May not IMPROVE it but it should at least MAINTAIN what little we have!
And thats important until we have other players who can draw people to the stadium enough to make reyes’ draw irrelevant!
So if they really want to hold the line on Reyes, Better to hold it on the NO TRADE clause and not the MONEY and YEARS!
Cause then not only will you get the next two years of good, the next two years of Reyes draw, you can trade him for something TANGIBLE instead of just two 2nd round maybes!
But Metsie… can’t you at least see the difference between the following items
Team A trades prospect for a player they feel can win them a back-to-back World Series right now.
Versus
Team B doesn’t sign their own player to a long-term deal ie John Lackey?
I’ve never said Wheeler will be an ace. I don’t think anybody knows what he will be. However, the Giants gave up on him because of where they are in terms of depth with pitching and they felt Beltran would put them over the top. The Giants were in 1st place on the day of the trade. They were trying to get an impact bat that would allow them to set themselves apart further in the playoff race and make them more dangerous in a 5 and 7 game series.
Trading 1 prospect to do that is not the same as not offering a guy like Jason Bay or John Lackey 5-7 year deals.
Wheeler was without a doubt the highest ceiling prospect you could have ever dreamed of getting for 2 months of ANY player and it took paying a lot of his salary in order to get the top talent too. Much better move getting one elephant than 4 house cats.
At the time of the trade there were three NL teams STARVED for offense. All three had pitching coming out of their ears but couldn’t capitilize on it because they couldn’t score. SF couldn’t shake AZ, Atlanta WANTED to up grade their offense and so did Philly. I’m sure they talked to numerous teams about plenty of scenarios but Alderson held out for one true potential difference maker instead of a slew of maybe’s.
Atlanta was just treading water until Chipper got back and then the day he did come back got hurt right away again. Not only that but McCann went down in that same game himself so now Atlanta was even more desperate. That’s what prompted Sabean to give up the real potential difference maker. The fear that Atlanta would up their offer or get in on Beltran (after all they have high echelon minor league pitching coming out of their ears) For all we know Sabean could have been offering Gary Brown all along and Alderson held out for the pitcher. If he does get hurt it was still the right thought process behind the trade and exactly the opposite of the Kazmir deal by an interim GM looking to make his mark and a naive, impatient and gullible J.Wilpon who thought of himself as a “baseball executive.”
And if jessup’s premise is right you didn’t get the Elephant you got someone they KNOW is not going to be what YOU think he is!
Go back in our history and we let Nolan Ryan go. For gosh sake we are talking about Hall of Famer here and if my memory serves me right was one of the reasons is he was prone to getting blisters on his pitching fingers and had to leave games early. Nolan Ryan, is that sinking in on fellow Met fans! Each player, each contract is based on many factors and some work an d some don’t. Big Mo Vaughn come to mind or Carl Crawford and Jason Bay? Jose Reyes may never go on a DL ever again and then again he could pull a hammy running all out to first and be lost for three molnths. You just never know,
A huge reason Ryan was traded was because he requested it due to his wife being stalked by someone in NY.
I did not hear that one but if I owned the Mets I would have paid for 24 hour private security. I think he was homesick for Texas and was a country boy at heart.
I think he was a country boy at heart also Lou but he was traded to LA and at the time of the trade being in the Mets Organization was the place to be.
Great ownership in Joan Payson the likes of which we’ll probably never see again. Great leadership in that organization. Gil Hodges, Rube Walker, Yogi Berra, Whitey Herzog and NYC wasn’t as big then as it is now, it was really just 15 years removed from when the Dodgers and Giants were here and two years removed from being World Champions.
The Mets in NYC were like the Beatles in Liverpool back then but Long Island was country like and with Seaver, Koosman and Matlack on the way poised to be in it every year.
The California Angels at that time were big city too and a 4th or 5th place team at the time.
If this was a huge reason it would have been a huge story and common knowledge to everybody.
I can’t find your claim anywhere. Provide a reliable source for this claim please.
My source was Gary Cohen right on a Met broadcast this year or last.
I think it’s just unbelievable that some fans are actually OK with letting Jose go – He’s a terrific player, he has it all – He can hit for average, has great speed, extra base power, plays solid defense, and is in the PRIME of his career – How could you not want to have this guy on your favorite team?
And I also think a team like the Mets letting a homegrown talent like Jose walk away for almost nothing is a disgrace.
No one is OK with it. Why does this lie persist?
However, some us realize that there are certain realities in this world that may make giving Reyes a huge deal detrimental to the Mets in the long term.
No one is saying “we need to get rid of Reyes and hoard draft picks”. What some of us are saying is “given our present circumstances, signing Reyes to a long term Crawford like deal will do far more harm than good to the franchise.”
Of course, none of us here really knows what Reyes is seeking or what his priorities are. He may just be curious what he can really get on the market and look for a bump from the Mets. He may be looking to break the bank. He may want to move to the West Coast. He may want to go play with his buddy Hanley Ramirez in Miami. He may want to keep his wife and kids rooted in New York.
what you and every here needs to realize is that none of us control the situation, we can only deal with it. Even Alderson is limited in how much he can do. The person who has the most say here is Reyes himself.
Ok, so what I should have said was:
“it’s unbelievable that some fans are OK with letting Jose go, if we have to pay alot of money to get him.”
But I think everyone knew what I meant the 1st time.
Again, noone is OK with the present predicament. We simply don’t want to make a short sighted move that will make things worse.
Let me ask you, straight up yes or no: If you were Alderson and Reyes said it would take a Crawford like deal to keep him, would you sign him?
Yes.
Well, then, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
well what does he care, it’s not his money. Let’s give Wright an A-Rod extension while we’re at it.
You realize Donal’s question was a hypothetical? Reyes is not going to sign for that much, but if that’s what it takes to sign him, then yes, the Mets should do it.
And if it was going to happen, it won’t, but let’s say if that did happen, reyes would only mkae 9M more than what we paid him last year….so with the Beltran, Castillo, and K-rod contracts coming off the books, the Mets should still have money left to sign other players.
So, they have to spend the money? No questions asked, no analyzing the available talent, just make sure we spend every dime.
That’s not what I meant,
I was just making a point that the Mets still would have money left even if the signed Reyes.
yes money left over IF the payroll was to remain at 140. which I think we all know it is not. so no there is no money left over because they are BROKE. “Wilpons” and “money left over” can’t be put in the same sentence.
so it is Jose Reyes and a bunch of scrub roster fillers, and be top heavy like we have been all decade…or…try to get a bunch of good role players.
as much as everyone doesn’t want to see it, the Wilpons only have a certain amount that they can afford to put into the roster right now. and it is no longer 140 million. That is the reality. even if this is “New York”.
so its Reyes and scrubs, or a bunch of good role players. Reyes is a 6 WAR player, not 16.
So, you are among those who consistently emphasize how much the less the Mets are reportedly spending this upcoming season, yet you don’t want it spent?
then why bring it up? Do you think we are unaware of it? Is it somehow relevant if you don’t think it needs to be spent?
not sure I understand exactly what you mean Donal.
That was meant for Vinny.
oh ok. thought so.
By the way, I just gave my opinion about the Reyes situation, and I’ve been accused of lying, and now I’m getting mocked by Chris.
It’s really frustrating because it feels like now that every time I leave a comment I have to deal with this. And I see them do this to other commenters here too.
“They”?
That’s it, internet tough guy. make a physical threat.
Because that is real baseball talk.
Vinny I don’t even know why you bother trying to have a conversation with a bastard like donal. I’m no angel and wish I had the patience you have with those guys. I don’t and now you see why.
Whether anyone agrees or disagrees with Vinny B he is always a gentleman and expresses himself quite clearly and logically and this no-good BASTARD donal continues to have the nerve to accuse Vinny of lying and generally being his arrogant/sarcastic/snarky self.
Guy like donal would NEVER EVER be this sarcastic in real life because where I come from, and I know i’m not alone in feeling like this, momma’s boys like donal get their heads smashed in.
thumbs up for the physical threat.
And I’m the guy ruining this place
Vinny, if Jose Reyes were Jose Reyes homegrown Toronto Blue Jay… would you want the Mets to pursue him at a Crawford-esque contract?
Another “amen.” Ruben Tejada would be an upgrade in terms of defense and durability and has shown that he can hit a little bit. Cesar Puello, Kirk Nieuwenhuis, and perhaps Cory Vaughn will provide spark and offense. A raft of great young pitchers is in the pipeline.
We’ve spent the past year or two getting out from under onerous contracts. How do you think we get into those contracts in the first place? By thinking that players like Francisco Rodriguez or Jason Bay will solve the team’s problems, only to find that they are entering their decline years.
Another point you seem to gloss over in the Kazmir deal is while they may have been correct about the longevity of Kazmir’s career and future injury problems when it comes right down to it Kazmir did a hell of a lot more for the team that got him than Zambrano did for us!
Maybe the trade was not as bad as it could have been if Kazmir had stayed healthy, But in the end Kazmir did more for them than Zambrano did for us and if we had kept him WE would have been better off!
So knowing more about your own might make one side of the equation correct but if your not correct in your evaluation of the return you STILL coming out on the short end of the deal!
That’s for sure.Kazmir could’ve helped in 07 and 08 down the stretch.Not saying we would’ve held on to those leads but the chances would have been geater if we had him on the team.It was still a bad trade.
Good post Jessep. I think Sandy Alderson, his professional scouting staff and even the Mets medical staff know more about the total picture with Jose Reyes compared to the average or even diehard Mets fan. First of all, I do want Sandy to resign Jose but to a more modest contract- just 3 guaranteed yrs at 17-18MM Per plus 2 vestible option yrs. that vest based on the number of games Reyes plays in the 2nd and 3rd yr and then 3rd and 4th yr in the contract for 17.5MM Per to provide the Mets with some back end contract protection just in case Reyes misses a chunk of time with his hammy issue in the 2nd or 3rd year of the contract. Secondly, does anybody believe that Jose Reyes is going to hit .337 ever again in his career or average near that figure instead of .290 ish? I think most Met fans, myself included felt that Dave Hudgens improved Jose’s plate discipline quite a bit but that was mainly an optical illusion. Reyes’ O-Swing% or swings at pitches out of the strike zone last year was actually a career high for Reyes but made contact on such pitches over 83% of the time which was way above his career norm for such pitches. Reyes last season had a .353 BABIP which is largely not sustainable and the result of some good forune because his LD% of 21.1% was more of a career average (20.2%) for him. Plus defensively, Reyes had a career low in a key, advanced defensive metric- Defensive Runs Saved with a poor minus 11 and a career high in errors with 18 even though he missed quite a few games. Plus, one has to factor into the equation that Terry Collins and now Jose himself sees the need to pace himself and not run the bases like some wild cheetah without so many triples and especially stolen bases so that he can stay on the field more to hit and field. Reyes was actually scared to attempt a SB at the end of last season. Is Reyes with more of a .290ish BA, less triples, less SB and declining defense and the lingering hammy issue really woth 20MM Per and 5 or 6 guaranteed years? I think not. I know salaries are crazy in MLB, but I think 20MM Per or more long term contracts should be reserved for impact HR RBI bats in the middle of one’s line-up and no doubt, legit healthy veteran ace SP. And as an aside here, Reyes probably feels more comfortable in a friendlier and more Hispanic evironment. There’s no mor friendly Hispanic GM, Omar Minaya nor Beltran, Delgado or K-Rod. Sandy Alderson and Terry Collins are fairly cold, all business and Sandy especially emotionally detached from his players. Plus the Marlins want to develop and cultivate the Latino market in Miami which is another reason why they’re so interested in Reyes, Pujols and Cuban CF Cespedes and even hired Hispanic mgr. Ozzie Guillen.
you are seriously going to put faith in the medical staff,they don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground,their inept than the wilpons.
Sach, I think if you go back a few weeks ago I suggested Florida. For pretty much the exact same reasons you suggested. I think its a good fit for him, and they are in a position to over spend.
That organization is a bit of a mess though… case in point, their new uniform/logo was leaked before the regular season ended and I showed it to a friend who is “high up” within the organization and it was the 1st time he had seen it.
I think Reyes fits the mold for Florida to make an overspend move and try to trick fans into coming to the park. But I would bet it won’t work out how they hope.
I am just curious. Does everyone believe that Bay is washed up? WHy is he being treated for depression? (is it contagious?….Bucholz)
I don’t I think he has a bunce back year but I am a METFAN4LIFE
Excellent post Jessep.To elaborate a little more regarding Jose and HGH possibilities.If I had a gun to my head I would have to say yes he did do HGH.Not that I have any proof but just looking at how much lean mass he has put on the last few years and the thyroid issue he had last year I would say he has used HGH.That picture of him in ESPN magazine he looked pretty big.
Come on, we don’t need this. Galea was a doctor long before he was shipping banned substances. There is no proof Reyes has ever taken HGH.
I did say I have no proof. Until recently there was no proof anyone took HGH as there was no way to test for it. I just said in my opinion he looks as if he has. What do you mean we don’t need this? We don’t need opinions? Would you be shocked if he has? My opinion is based on my own personal use of HGH. HGH is very easy to obtain. You don’t need to get it from a doctor. You can get it for 450.00 a kit at most gyms if you run into the right people.
I’m not looking to make accusations about any player and HGH to be honest. I do however think the whole blood spinning procedure is a little fishy to be honest. Not just with him, I remember hearing TO do it before the super bowl when he had a broken leg. I believe Hines Ward did it too…
I’m saying we don’t need to go down this road. There is enough baseless rumors about Reyes right now. Let’s not create some more.
TO and Hines Ward are Massive.I would bet the ranch that both used not only HGH but anabolics as well.
I’m not trying to spread any baseless rumors,just giving my opinion.Jose is ripped to shreds and had a thyroid condition which is a side effect of HGH use. Saying that I know he used HGH would be spreading a baseless rumor,saying it looks like he may have is just an opinion.Please understand the difference.
Since all this Jose Reyes nonsense started ,this is the best post I’ve read. Well done couldn’t agree more