29
2011
Fan Shot: Seems Like Old Times
An article by 
While the Mets embark upon a future that may not include all-star shortstop and fan favorite Jose Reyes, I can’t help but notice how oddly familiar this all seems.
The drama of potentially losing the face of the franchise and the intense media build-up leading up to his final moments, is something that many of us old-timers have seen before. I know that most of you reading this were not even born yet on June 15, 1977, but you may soon feel what it was like when another Mets general manager made the erroneous decision to plunge the Mets into a bleak uncertainty and to move on without their franchise player, Tom Seaver.
Those were dark days for the Mets, and like today, money had a lot to do with why it happened. In the days leading up to that fateful day the Mets found a PR person in Dick Young of the Daily News, to help chip away at that great Tom Seaver persona and try to tarnish his glistening image and even minimize some of his incredible achievements.
“Tom Seaver is after more money. He wants to break his contract with the Mets. “Renegotiate” is the pretty word he used for it in this time of pretty words.” – Dick Young, Daily News
The hope was that it would help facilitate Seaver’s departure by getting a small minority of the fans to sour on Tom Terrific. That never happened of course and M. Donald Grant became one of the most vilified and abhorred general managers in New York baseball history.
The NYC Morgue had more life than Shea Stadium in the years after that trade, and in fact many began referring to Shea as “Grant’s Tomb”. The mere mention of Grant’s name – even today – will draw a scowl from anyone old enough to remember him.
Are we seeing this played out in all it’s grandeur again today?
Like Seaver, Reyes has shattered well over a dozen franchise records since coming up from the Mets minor leagues and becoming one of the most exciting players in the game and the premier leadoff man in baseball.
Reyes has become the face of the Mets franchise and even today is considered by most to be an essential part of the Mets offense and their top core player.
Sandy Alderson is treading on some dangerous terrain right now. He must navigate through some choppy waters. Depending on how he handles these negotiations with Reyes, he could invoke the ire of an entire fanbase and plunge this franchise back into that same black abyss of the late seventies.
Even the great one, Tom Seaver himself, shared his thoughts on Reyes not to long ago. ”Unless you have a game plan to go in a different direction, you can’t get rid of him. He’s too good,” Seaver said. ”Reyes is a player you build around. If the Mets don’t re-sign Reyes, what are you going to replace him with?”
Remember the saying “As Jose Reyes goes, so goes the Mets?” It was intended to remind everyone of just how valuable Reyes was to this line-up and to this team as a whole.
I’m curious to know, and please I’m speaking only to those who were actually around back then, doesn’t all of this seem vaguely familiar?
This Fan Shot was submitted by John Volpe. Have something you want to say about the Mets? Share your opinions with over eleven-thousand Mets fans who read this site daily. Send your Fan Shot to GetMetsmerized@aol.com.
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Well done John!
You know what the problem here is?
Most who favor letting reyes go were not even BORN in 1977!
You say Joe Torre to them and they will cite his Yankee record not his years with us!
Some may not even know he managed our team!
They look at 86 and mention homegrowns yet forget all the losing we had to bear to get all those top draft picks that got them or the players we used to get Hernandez, Carter, Ojeda, and all the players they now call their immortal Mets.
We are dealing with Kids who favor spreadsheets and stats over going to the game to see your favorite player WIN OR LOSE and have a good time!
Never lived through the time where QUALITY trumped MONEY as is opposite today.
They are from the DISPOSABLE GENERATION! Who cares if it doesn’t work as good as the old reliable just give me NEW?
New and YOUNG!
DISPOSABLE HEROES!
If only they could remember how well it worked when we did that with Seaver!
Took 9 years to recover from that!
But most were still breast feeding at the time so they will make the same mistakes because they refused to learn HISTORY and now will repeat it!
Awesome response, presumptions and a bit of contradiction all wrapped into one.
I remember being on the shoulders of my Dad during Game 5 of 69 WS chanting Lets Go Mets, I was 21 years old when they won in 86. I remember Joe Torre being below average manager on the Mets, and yet another to add to the long list of the NY Mets history of stars that came here long past their prime.
There is a HUGE difference between wanting to resign Reyes, and resigning him at all costs. I have yet to see anyone that doesn’t want Reyes resigned but sometimes you have to say, “at what cost” Despite your attempts of twisting such words, that does not mean I don’t want him resigned, I will say it I DO, but unlike some assumptions, the NY Mets are not in the position of the NY Yankees and capable of signing everyone and anyone just because this is NY. It just doesn’t work that way.
For as much as I love watching Reyes, and I’m more than aware of his talents and what he does, the game is far bigger than him and if they sell out for JUST Reyes, it won’t be much better than it was after 1977. Just a good SS and nothing else, sorry but that’s not enough for me. I want a complete team. I am still holding out hope they can and will do both.
You said “Never lived through the time where QUALITY trumped MONEY as is opposite today.” Yet in every thread you get the chance you bring up spend the money no matter what, and this team should spend etc….(paraphrasing of course) So which is it?
There are MANY that can marry the old with the new, but unfortunately for you, you don’t understand that and continue to make assumptions about those that do follow sabremetrics. Quite a bold statement, and a broad stroke about people prefer a stat sheet over going to a game – where do you get that nonsense? Seriously? Why does it have to be all or nothing?
I’m probably one of the older generation that visit this site, but lucky for me, I’m open minded and am capable of knowing that the new and old can not only co-habitat but they should…….funny how every aspect of life is moving on, but some of you refuse to let that happen in baseball. No one has EVER told you not to enjoy the game the same way, NEVER, you own how you view, watch a game, but get on board or stay behind, your choice, the process of the preparation of the game is leaving the station………
Learn the difference that is the process of the preparation and what the game is……my love of the game has never changed and old time fans know this game has indeed evolved, and it always will and I’m thankful for that……
Here’s to the NY Mets organization retaining Jose Reyes AND building a better team so we can celebrate like the folks in St. Louis did last night.
Kay! From someone who’s the same age as you,I salute you! That was one of the best responses I’ve read on this site in a long long time and it is so on point.
A voice of reason! Who would’ve thunk it.
I would like to keep Jose to but if his contract is going to prohibit any other moves to improve the team then what’s the point. We are not the Yanks,not even close financially.I think most Met fans realize this,the intelligent ones at least.
Ok Kay I’ll play the game for a bit…
“There is a HUGE difference between wanting to resign Reyes, and resigning him at all costs”
Whats the difference…. TO YOU?
I mean YOU PERSONALLY?
Will you not be able to make rent?
Will you have to pay more for tickets you already don’t buy because attendance is down?
Will not signing him make tickets cheaper for everyone?
Will you have to eat less if Reyes gets 25 as opposed to 18?
Who do you expect to sign instead with the money?
Please oh wise and reasonable teenager tell us what affect HOW MUCH REYES GETS has on your life?
If it does then I’m glad to see a Wilpon family member posting here on MMO!
Cause really all these don’t pay Reyes too much guys are just making it easier for the Wilpons to turn us into the Pirates or are a Wilpon themselves!
I find it ironic that your responses are always full of insults instead of depth. Not capable of having a grown up discussion?
Funny how you call out so many of us fans as teenagers, yet your replies sound like YOU are the child.
You just don’t get it, and I’m starting to actually pity you now. I clearly stated my stance, my history as a Mets fan and since it now spans 40 years I am not new to this.
I attend many games, I even went to St. Louis to see this team this year, how many games have YOU attended? I am a mortgage holder, not a rent payer. I am a grown up. I know baseball. I also know how to read without twisting words like a child, how about you?????
Obviously you don’t read here much if you got that impression about my posts!
I notice you avoided the questions I posed as well…
I’ll repost to refresh your memory…
Whats the difference…. TO YOU?
I mean YOU PERSONALLY?
Will you not be able to make rent?
Will you have to pay more for tickets you already don’t buy because attendance is down?
Will not signing him make tickets cheaper for everyone?
Will you have to eat less if Reyes gets 25 as opposed to 18?
Who do you expect to sign instead with the money?
I think those are reasonable questions.
At the end of the day, Mets fans were asked to be patient for the end of this past season where tons of money was coming off the books.
So, it was pretty jaw dropping when the Mets announced that they are going to drop payroll down to around 100 million – down from over 140 million.
So why are the Mets cutting the budget? To make a better team? No – it’s because of Madoff. Because Fred won’t sell control of the team to someone who has the financial resources to run a number market team.
Why won’t he sell? Because he wants to keep the Mets in his family – because he wants to one day give it to his son Jeff.
This is not some great strategy to make the Mets a better ball club – this is cost dumping because Fred got greedy and got burned. Or Fred got hoodwinked… or whatever…
We can go after bargain basement injury prone ‘lightning-in-a-bottle’ cheap players – we can let Reyes go – but don’t ever forget the reason we are doing it is to ensure that Jeff gets the team someday.
Just an absolutely brilliant response, Kay! Nice job. It can’t be about all or nothing like some around here try to preach. It has to be a mixture of both sides. Whether we’re talking about the difference between spending/rebuilding, scouts/stats, etc…you need a mixture of both. There are some people around here (let’s call them “The Core”) who are trying to discourage one side of the coin. They see things with their eyes, man! The eyes are important but in order to be effective, they must be equal to the numbers. It’s beyond stupid to deride something just because you don’t understand it and that’s what I often see around here from this “Core”.
METSIE, WELL SAID, AND IT’S FUNNY AS I JUST TODAY, WROTE TO JOEL SHERMAN REGRDING HIS LATEST ARTICLE THAT INTIMATED AT DEPARTURES OF BOTH WRIGHT & REYES AS WELL AS QUOTING SOME UNNAMED INSIDER STATING TOO MUCH WAS TIED TO TOO FEW.
Five years after last shot at Series, Mets face game-changing winter – NYPOST.com
I SAY FUNNY, AS I ACCUSED SHERMAN & HIS COHORTS FOR DICK YOUNGING REYES & WRIGHT.
I’VE HEARD ALL MEASURE OF RATIONALES FOR LETTING REYES WALK; YET I DON’T UNDERSTAND HOW IT’S SUCH A BIG DEAL, AS I SEE IT WHAST ARE TRULY THE RISKS OF RESIGNING REYES?
FINACIAL LOSSES OF PAYING FOR NO PLAY?
RODUCTIVITY LOSSES OF HIS UNAVAILABILITY?
TO ME, SIMPLY, THESE HOLD NO WATER WHEN PUNCTURED BY MERE FACTS.
OVER THE COURSE OF HIS 8.5Y CAREER REYES HAS MISSED 24% OF THE GAMES PLAYED. TOO MUCH? COMPARED TO WHOM? PEERS? REYES HAS NO ACTIVE PEERS!(CLUE #1 FOR KEEPING HIM) LET’S LOOK THROUGH HISTORY FOR SIMILAR TYPE OF BASESTEALING, LEAOFF THREATS.
WHILE WE’RE TALKING HISTORICAL COMPARISONS I RECOLLECT SIMILAR NY ARTICLES CONCERNING THE SIGNING OF SUCH A LEADOFF FIREBRAND BACK IN 1985, ONLY THE TEAM WASN’T THE METS, IT WAS THE YANKEES, THE PLAYER OBVIOUSLY WASN’T REYES, IT WAS RICKEY HENDERSON. YES, THE PUNDITS OF NY’S BACKPAGES WERE SIMILARLY CRITICAL OF LOST TIME & INJURIES; HOWEVER IT WASN’T PERTINENT THEN, NEITHER IS IT NOW. ALSO RICKEY WAS JUST 27 YRS OLD.
PRODUCTIVITY LOSS? IS LOSING 100% OF REYES’ PRODUCTIVITY SOME HOW MORE BENEFICIAL THAN THE 24% HE’S INJURED FOR? TO WIT FOR ALL THESE YOUNG SOCALLEDE MATHEMETICIANS WITH THIS MINDSET I SUBMIT THIS EQUATION AS FACT…
123 REYES GAMES+ 39 TEJADA GAMES > 162 TEJADA GAMES
FINANCIAL LOSS? INJURY INSURANCE REDUCES A 22M LIABILITY TO 3.3M OVER A FULL LOST SEASON(85%).
FINALLY TO THAT TWIT CITING PASSING ON REYES TO AVOID MORE BIG CONTRACTS IN FEW PLAYERS I SUGGEST HE FIRST EXAMINE THE BIGGEST FINANCIAL INVESTMENT DISASTER IN FLUSHING HISTORY, JOHAN SANTANA WHO HAS COLLECTED 82.5M TO SUPPLY MERELY 40 WINS OVER 4 YRS WHILE SUBMITTING A MISERABLE RECORD AGAINST THE BIGGEST RIVALS OVER 4 YRS:
SANTANA Vs
ATLANTA: 3W-5L
PHILLY: 5W-5L
YANKS: 1W-3L
TOTAL 9W-13L AGAINST OUR BIGGEST RIVALS IN CRITICAL SERIES
HOLY KEI IGAWA, BATMAN! WHILE CERTAINLY BLOWNUP DEASLS OF THIS SORT ON PITCHING IS NO ANAMOLY IN BASEBALL(IGAWA,DICE-K,PAVANO,BROWN,JOHNSON) HOWEVER NONE OF THOSE FROZE EITHER TEAM INTO INACTIVITY
NYM OOWNERSHIP, INCOMPETANTLY HAS REFUSED ANY FURTHER SIGNIFICANT PITCHING INVESTMENT SINCE JEFF PERSONALLY NEGOTIATED THIS ALBATROSS.
SURE, THE ABSOLUTE CORRECT COURSE CORRECTION IS CONSIDERING LETTING BOTH WRIGHT & REYES LEAVE FOR MINIMAL PROJECTED RETURN.
THIS IS ALL DICK YOUNG @ HIS MADDEST!
LOL 62!
It is rather odd how the spreadsheeters can crunch the numbers but still don’t realize that 76% of Reyes in a season is still 150% more than his possible replacement gives us in a season!
The issue is pretty clear to me. I understand the BUDGET is what drives this. We lost money because no one went to see them and by cutting Salary they feel they will lose less. But losing less doesn’t translate to not losing at all!
In fact even if we cut the 15 – 25 Mil he is getting or might get, How much Attendance do we lose as a result?
Sure we might reduce the Payroll by 15 Mil if we let him go and who is to say that won’t mean 20 Mil in lost ticket sales?
Does that solve the problem or make it worse?
What do you do then?
Get rid of Wright? Ok save another 15-20 Mil, lose another 25 Mil in ticket sales.
Losing even MORE money than when you started and at some point you run out of cuts to make to offset it!
What do you do then?
SIGN someone who can put fannies in the seats?
With what money?
Companies downsize and make cuts all the time in the name of the Budget. Perfectly normal. But they don’t cut so much that production can’t be maintained and met to maintain the demand for the product!
They cut the pieces that do NOT help to sell the product. They cut a few VPs who produce no goods just manage those who do.
They cut middle managers who report to them who also do not produce any product just count as overhead!
Workers get cut only when the demand for the product is so low that they can’t use the contribution of product they make and that only works on a FACTORY model not an ENTERTAINMENT business!
I said it once before IronMan would not have been the blockbuster it was with Bruce Campbell as Tony Stark! No one would have gone to see it!
He would have been cheaper than Downey Jr but casting him would cut off your nose to spite your face! Spend less on the product people don’t go to see the product!
Baseball is a STAR DRIVEN BUSINESS!
They want it to be a stat driven business but people don’t bring laptops with them to the game for their enjoyment!
They go to see their STAR PLAYER and in the proccess buy food, concessions and souvenirs! Without a star to go see none of that happens!
But it will look good in the spreadsheet, just not good at the Box office!
And if the Box office doesn’t improve the cutting will continue, the losses will mount and at some point there will be no one left to cut to get under budget and no money left to spend to fix it!
Whatever Reyes is going to get in Salary is worth it ON the FIELD and in the BOXOFFICE!
He will generate 25 Mil of Ticket sales just by being here!
Better to cut a Bay who has no draw or Santana who can’t draw because he isn’t ON the field for anyone to go and see or to get rid of all those OTHER guys who are cheap and NO DRAW whatsoever because replacing them doesn’t hurt the box office and if you find the right one might get the next player who can draw as much as Reyes does now!
Addition by Addition not Subtraction!
really thats what is being debated these last few months when talking about Reyes!
They want to add by subtracting. No consideration of what exactly is getting subtracted! Both on field and in the stands.
When attendance is the issue (as it is here) you don’t HURT the attendance in the name of the balance sheet you fix the attendance so the Balance sheet pays the bills!
ANY good business man knows this!
The more things change, the more they stay the same. However, Alderson will never be hated as much as Grant was. He would have to get rid of BOTH Reyes and Wright this Winter and then maybe, but still probably not.
Did you really have to bring that day up? lol
I’ll never forget the Newark Star Ledger sports section headline when that trade went down. I remember the smear campaign leading up to it and all I can say is any Met fan around back then knew better. No one was buying it. For the Sandy haters crowd – you have no idea what a bad GM really is. Couldn’t wrap his brain around the new concept of FA and all he could think was no player was holding him hostage for more money. Now that was one cheap GM. And how did that work out? Those late 70s/early 80s teams were the worst in franchise history post 1969.
I have a hard time thinking this current regime will allow the Mets to fall that deep into an abyss again but time will tell.
I cant see that situation ever playing out again like it did back in the day. The Midnight Massacre, as it was called, gutted the heart and soul of the team. Seaver was iconic and more than just the face of the franchise. I dont believe Reyes rises to that same level and in the same way. That’s not to demean him in any way, but only to say Seaver was much more beloved on a broader scale than what Reyes is. Plus Seaver led the team to two World Series and won one. Alderson will get the wrath of millions raining down upon him if he loses Reyes, but it can never match what Grant had to deal with as far as venom. Seaver was also 32 when he was traded, and the Mets did get 4 huge prospects at the time including Pat Zachry who just won the Rookie of the Year award and was considered the best pitching prospects in baseball at the time. Henderson and Norman were also highly regarded. But none of that mattered and none of those four prospects amounted to much, though Henderson did provide a few nice moments and Flynn won a gold glove.
The thing with Reyes is that the most the Mets will get out of it is two picks. If the rumors we hear are true and either the Marlins, Nationals or Cubs get him, we don’t even get their first round pick because it’s protected. If the Giants or Phillies bite you’re getting either #20 or #31 overall. That doesn’t guarantee anything. A top ten overall pick stands an 85% better chance of making it to the majors than any pick below that.
The most interesting thing about your post is Seaver’s quote. If they have a legitimate backup plan that Alderson could sell the fans, he will come out okay though. That means trading for Hanley Ramirez or replacing Reyes with another top performing player. If Ruben Tejada is the backup plan, things will get ugly because Alderson already had a good 30% of the fanbase against him already (unrightfully so). Trading Reyes without a major acquisition may topple his regime.
The fanbase being against him will not “topple his regime”. If Reyes walks and they use the money somewhere else and the Mets make the playoffs next year (less likely without Reyes, but who the hell knows anymore), people wouldn’t care at all. Alderson is not the kind of GM who will make blockbuster moves to appease the fanbase that will bitch and moan regardless. We’ll all be kissing his feet when the Mets dynasty is in place!
Hodges I will agree on this point…
Your correct Reyes is not as Beloved as Seaver.
And no Met past present or future ever will be!
Only other difference between then and now is Sandy doesn’t need Dick Young to start a smear campaign he has Jessup, Donal JoeDiaz and a few other MMO posters to start it for him!
Good point as well on the fact we may not get two picks or get late 1st rounders.
I would love to hear this backup plan from those who think Reyes is not worth it!
Your the first poster to mention this so I commend you!
this reyes situation gives one the same exact feeling as the seaver trade. there is no dick young around but there is the daily news in bed with the wilpons. the same daily news young wrote for.so the two situations are very similar.anybody who was around for the midnight massacre knows what i am talking about.all reyes does is stay out of trouble and plays baseball.the only picture of reyes i have seen in the papers off the field …is at costco with his wife! very sad.
Excellent post, John.
As someone who was old enough to remember that June day very well, I thought To’d share my thoughts.
There are some striking similiarities. Back then, Grant and Mets brass was going on an indirect route to discredit Seaver, via Dick Young. Once we bought into the negative PR, it would be an easier pill to swallow when we finally did trade him. Of course, that didnt work out.
I’m not going out on limbs here but to say in our almost 50 years of existence, June 15, 1977 stans out as the worst single day in team history–by far.
I do love Reyes. Yes, I do worry about signing him to a long term contract with his history of leg problems, especially when his game is speed. However, if we can waste 14 million on Jason Bay, I saw we gamble on Reyes for 18 million.
My other concern is that after the Seaver trade, this team went into a tail spin that lasted almost a decade. I have no doubt that not re-signing Reyes will have the same effect.