Minaya, DePodesta and Ricciardi MLB Draft Review

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• BTF May 7, 2011 at 10:58 pm

  Great job, I tip my hat to you. I do think Depo and JP will get better with more experience, but clearly Omar was better by a wide margin.
  • Pat May 7, 2011 at 11:13 pm

    From a scouting point of view Omar was above average. As a GM overall he will always be remembered for the Ollie and Castillo contracts. No one should forget he traded Brandon Phillips, Grady Seizmore and CLIFF LEE for Bartolo Colon. Yes all of them were prospects and Colon did well in Montreal.

    Great Job Maniac!!
    • t agee May 8, 2011 at 10:40 pm

      Nice job with the research and report Maniac. Glad you got it done. I think there is enough about both Depodesto and Riccardi to be concerned.

      It is impossible to know what role signability played in the drafts but we just have to go based on who was selected. Personally I think Omar was hurt by this issue during his tenure as GM here but I also believe that he drafted for ability to get up here as quickly as possible rather than for top quality. I believe this could be a problem with the current administration as well.

      I would prefer to eliminate the horse trading part of it because at the time of the draft that’s not relevant. What is relevant is that player picked was considered to be the best player on the board (forgetting about signability, college commitments ect.)

      Part of Moneyball was about the draft and how Beanne ridiculed the A’s Director of Amateur Scouting for selecting Bonderman because he was a high school pitcher (highest bust rate) but there is a lot to be said for the High School pitcher wear and tear wise, development wise, aluminum bats and so forth and in that 2002 “moneyball” draft HS pitchers did bust at #2,3 and 4 but other high school pitchers hit like Greinke, Kazmir, Hamels, Cain, Lester, Broxton, Josh Johnson and LOADS of college pitchers busted too. The fact are that the A’s COULD HAVE selected every single one of these guys with the exception of Greinke. They also could have selected Votto, McCann, Granderson or other fine players. With four first round picks and 3 supplementary round choices all they really got was Swisher and Blanton. Very very poor job and in my opinion the largest reason by far that the A’s have had a losing record from 2008-present.

      All drafts are different. The only way a draft can really be compared is who was liked better than someone else that was left on the board. I have a bad feeling that Depo would have taken Allan Dykstra a lot earlier than he did because of OB when what you want out of your 1B is someone who hits the **** out of the ball.

      Is the draft philosophy of the Director of Amateur Scouting and the GM a good one? Personally I believe the high school talent is the better choice even though the bust rate may be higher because the talent ceiling is higher if their considered good enough to go in the first couple of rounds. The downfall to that is you have to buy out their scholorship and wait a little longer but you get a chance to develop them to be pro’s. Hit with wood bats and they come up here at 21 or 22 instead of 23 or 24.

      We have no idea the input of Russ Bove who ran the 2005 draft or Rudy Terasses who ran 2006-2010 but I know they wish they had more money and especially picks to work with. The fact is since 1999 we have given up six #1 picks, four #2 picks and three #3 picks and continually selected lesser talent with the picks we’ve kept and to top it off rushed every single prospect who showed any glimmer of a chance. That has to change. So does counting on just one prospect for each future roster spot. That’s why Haven’s injury has hurt so much and we certainly can’t assign credit to anyone for drafting him…..yet. Hopefully we can in the future.

      Omar’s strategy, probably through necessity, was to look to the IFA market and get depth and some specific needs through the draft. His 2007 was totally lacking in sound thought process as was his giving up of a #1 pick for a 40 year old LFer and 2 #1 picks for a DH. Duda, Thole, Pelfrey, Parnell, Murphy, Gee, Niese are not guys you build around. Davis and Harvey might be, we’ll just have to wait and see.

      As I said there is every reason to be concerned about Depo and Riccardi. Hopefully they’ve learned something. Theo’s early drafts weren’t very good but lately they’ve been great. Of course he’s always seeking to pick up a an extra early round pick or three and that makes a huge difference.

      One thing I really would like to see Met Fans do is not let the GM, Director of Scouting or the owners off the hook on the draft (or IFA Market) because this is where you get the best players who will be on the field everyday for 6-10 years, not 3 or 4 like the free agent (at best) We should be comparing our results to the Braves. Just look at the guys they’ve gotten through the draft. Hanson, Beachy, Venters, Kimbrel, McCann, Freeman, Escobar, Chipper, Heyward. Those are players you build around. It’s drafts like these combined with the IFA market that allow you to go the playoffs 15 years out of 20. That’s what I want us to do.

      Anyway Maniac, Very nice work. I hope Omar’s ledger (on his own) blows everyone else out of the water but the book on him will be open for a very long time. As for Depo/Alderson there is a lot to worry about, especially if the money really has dried up. Thanks for the report.
      • t agee May 9, 2011 at 11:24 am

        Maniac, I’m not sure that the A’s 2000 and 2001 drafts belong on Depo ledger because those were the drafts that the Directer of amateur scouting ran for Beanne that were the basis of the whole moneyball book. In other words there is documented evidence that Depo did not have input into those two drafts.

        Really really a reach trying to credit Omar with Heilman and Wright when Omar was the Director of INTERNATIONAL Scouting. Omar ran the scouts who beat the bushes in the DR and Venezuela.

        The Director of Amateur Scouting under Phillips was Gary Larouque 1n 1998 and followed by Carmen Fusco in 1999 with Laroque becoming Fusco’s asst. Those two and the GM, Phillips would have had the input into those drafts as well as the actual scouts and cross checkers who had seen them play.

        Omar would have been busy with recruiting players in preperation for the July 2, signing period for international amateurs.

        Also I don’t get why Omar gets credit for Mulvey (among others) bringing Santana while Depo doesn’t get credit for drafting Either because Beanne then traded HIM.

        Lastly drafting relief pitchers out of college is not a sane strategy. Cordero worked out well for a time but situations were different in Montreal. We should never have spent a first round pick on Kunz with so many long term holes on this team. A a third round pick on Smith who’s an average reliever I can live with but your first, supplementary and second round picks need to turn into guys like Lester, McCann, Votto, Broxton, Baker, Either, Gallardo, Pense, Pedroia, Suzuki. These were all 2nd round picks from 2002-2004 who have produced way more than a closer every will.
        • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 12:05 pm

          He was the senior AGM AND the Director of International.

          TWO ROLES!

          Keep trying to spread that lie that he only handled International despite the fact proof has been shown EVERYONE reported to him as SENIOR AGM!
          • t agee May 9, 2011 at 1:37 pm

            He was the Assistant GM to Steve Phillips AND the Director of INTERNATIONAL Scouting. Two functions.

            Carmen Fusco was the Director of Amateur Scouting from 2000-2003 and Gary Larouque was the Asst. Director of Amateur Scouting. Those two, the scouts that had actually SEEN the amateurs play, and the GM would have been making the call on who got drafted. Not the guy in charge of the INTERNATIONAL Scouting Department.

            I really can’t understand why your trying to besmirch Omar’s resume with the Steve Phillips drafts anyway.

            By your reasoning you would have to “credit” Omar with drafting first, second and third rounders like Jason Tyner, Pat Strange, Jason Saenez, Neil Musser, Jake Josephs, Jeremy Griffith’s, Billy Traber, Bobby Keppel, Matt Peterson, Josh Reynolds, Alhaji Turay, Corey Rangsdale and Lenny Dinardo (career WAR to date negative 1.8)

            Other than Wright and Heilman, these are all of the first, supplemental, second and third round picks during the years Omar worked under Steve Phillips.

            Basically the Mets under Phillips while Minaya was here hit on one player drafted in the first 3 rounds and got a good, for a short period of time, relief pitcher at #18 of the first round.

            If anything the draft improved after Minaya left with Kazmir (although Hamels, Cain, Lester, Josh Johnson, McCann, Votto, and Granderson were still on the board) and Milledge who at least had the physical skills to play in the Majors.

            Of approximately 300 players Phillips drafted in six years three have produced 90% of the value of ALL his picks. Wright, Pagan and Kazmir. All of the rest combined produced exactly 6.9 WAR in six years or an average of 1.2 per year.

            Compare the Mets total WAR of ALL players drafted from Phillips (64.5) Duquette (-0.4) and Minaya (11.7) total 75.8 to the total WAR of the Phillies draft during the same period (98-2009) 174.2 WAR and it’s not hard to reach the conclusion that our GM’s, Scouts and Development people have been out hustled by the Phillies.

            Is it any wonder why they’ve gone to the post season each of the last four years while we have not?
            • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 2:39 pm

              “Carmen Fusco was the Director of Amateur Scouting from 2000-2003 and Gary Larouque was the Asst. Director of Amateur Scouting.”

              Was either an assistant GM? NO!
              That makes Omar Minaya THIER BOSS!!!!!

              Sorry to ruin your fantasy!

              I posted the links that prove Omar was their boss!
              Prove otherwise now with a corresponding link to facts or conceed you got proved wrong!

              I’m getting tired of your idea that repeating the same wrong thing over and over again is going to trump the evidence that proved it wrong merely by repitition of BULL!
              • t agee May 9, 2011 at 3:36 pm

                Where and how do YOU know who reported to who? The Directors of amateur scouting are the ones who ran the draft. They did so under Phillips just like they did so under Minaya. That’s their whole job description.

                Omar was under an entirely different umbrella. His sphere of influence was in the INTERNATIONAL arena.

                In six years Phillips pulled two future All Stars out of the draft. One while Omar was with the Mets, one when Omar was with the Expos.

                Even the one that was drafted when Omar was with the Mets was left on the board for twenty picks because Heilman was considered a better choice at #18 of the first round. Wright wasn’t taken until #38 in the supplemental round.

                It was pure luck he was still on the board twenty picks later.

                The only other All Star selected by the Phillips regime was Kazmir. He was selected infront of Hamels, Cain, Lester, Josh Johnson, McCann, Votto and Granderson and was done so when Minaya was working for the Expos.

                Those two players alone represent 73% of the actual on field contribution of ALL the players selected by Steve Phillips.

                Now you have repeatedly stated that Omar was responsible for Wright. If he was then he was also responsible for the utterly putrid results of the Phillips regime including the first, supplementary, second and third round choices of Tyner, Strange, Saenez, Musser, Jospeh, Griffith’s, Traber, Keppel, Peterson, Reynolds, Turay, Rangsdale and Dinardo.

                If Omar was in charge of Phillips drafts then he absolutely sucked in his role.

                Those 13 first, supplementary, second or third round picks combined to contribute a total of NEGATIVE 3.1 WAR, and those are the one’s who made it to the Majors.

                The facts are like this. No one can really say who reports to who but we do know that the International signing period (which is a lot like college recruiting due to the need to sign, not draft prospects) is July 2nd. The amateur draft is in June. Wouldn’t you think the Director of International Scouting might be a tad busy with trying to keep an eye on those international prospects and whittle the list down there and try to come up with some kind of feel about cost in the run up to D-Day?

                The Directors of amateur Scouting’s sole function is the draft. That’s their field of expertise. One would have to be of the opinion that their thoughts and the thoughts of their scouts would most influence the GM’s decision, not the guy who runs the scouts in the International end of things.

                Bottom line Metsie, your claiming Omar drafted Wright when in fact Omar reported to Phillips.

                You can’t have it both ways. Either Phillips drafted Wright or Omar was responsible for Wright as well as those 13 bungled first, supplementary, second and third round selections during the Phillips era.

                To date Minaya has been in the front office when two future All Stars were drafted. David Wright and Chad Cordero. From 1998-2010. thirteen years 2 All Stars. That’s a great haul in one draft, but thirteen? I don’t know Metsie that pretty much sucks.

                Your the one stating that Omar was responsible for us drafting Wright. You prove it with a little more substance than taking a tour of Shea stadium.
              • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 3:53 pm

                No the GM ran the draft. He ran it based on reccomendations of his staff. You conclude that the Staff did it all while the GM and SENIOR ASST sat and drank coffee…

                I have showed you proof that Omar was in charge of al the departments under aquisition and Evaluations.

                You want to prove otherwise come up with some proof they were NOT what their titles say they were in the chain of command!

                EVERYONE reported to the Senior AGM and the SAGM reported to the GM!

                That means any decision Phillips made went through Omar first!
                Prove otherwise if you can!
    • t agee May 9, 2011 at 2:42 pm

      If you take a look at only those players DRAFTED by Riccardi, Depodesta and Minaya, without considering who was signed or traded this is what you get. I think that’s the fairest way of comparing the results since they were the men in charge at the time of the draft and the purpose of the draft is in the selection of the prospect. You can try your best to weed out the unsignables but taking a flyer on a guy (like DePo did with Price in the 19th round) and giving it a shot is a worthwhile thing to do and after all, all the scouting dept can be charged with is IDENTIFYING talent that then makes it’s way up to the Majors. After that it’s not completely in the GM’s hands as to whether the money is available, representation makes outrageous demands or the kid flat out want to go to school.

      Total accumulated WAR of players drafted by Omar Minaya from 2002-2004 (Montreal) and 2005-2010 (NY) = 15.9 of which Chad Cordero accounts for 7.8.

      Total accumulated WAR of players drafted by JP Riccardi 2002-2009 (Tor)
      44.7 of which Hill accounts for 15.9, Marcum 9.9.

      Total accumulated WAR of players drafted by Depodesta as LA GM 2004-2005 6.9 WAR 6.7 of which was accumulated by David Price, a player who did not sign with the Dodgers.

      Final tally:

      Minaya 15.9 over 8 years and counting or about 2.0 per year

      Riccardi 44.7 over 8 years and counting or about 5.5 per year.

      DePodesta 6.9 over 2 years and counting or about 3.5 per year with the huge caveat that almost the entire thing was wrapped up in one player not even signed by him.

      Overall I am of the belief that Omar’s drafts, bad as they were, will wind up being the best overall and that he and Riccardi will be light years ahead of Depodesta although two years is a small time frame from which to draw a true conclusion from.

      We cannot know how badly the slot situation hurt Omar here in NY or how bad it cost him in Montreal. My guess is quite a bit but some of what happened in NY was of his own making by handing over draft choices and then failing to take back picks when he had a chance not to mention spending so much on the 25 man roster and the idiocy of drafting college relief pitchers with early round selections when it was the rotation, 2B, RF and LF that needed to be addressed will haunt us for years to come. 100 games of Alou in LF and the drafting of Kunz, Vineyard and Moviel cost us a shot at Tommy Hunter, Jordan Zimmerman, Mike Stanton, Freddie Freeman and two young catchers not yet up here, Austin Romine and Travis D’Anaurd.

      Think about it. If Thole hadn’t shown at least some ability where would we be at catcher? If Glavine had broken down like all the other free agents we signed who would we have a t 1B? As it is we had one top shelf prospect at 1B, one credible prospects at catcher, one at 2B, no one at all in LF or RF until Puello and Vaughn got signed or drafted and we were handing over first round picks on guys anywhere from 34-40 years old. Second round picks on guys 32-34 and trading away two first rounders for a DH.

      Out of 1B, 2B and catcher we got about the best we could ask for, one future All-Star, one half of a decent catching tandem and one guy who may or may not make it up here. Harvey, Holt and Matz will probably yield about the same. Newenhaus, Den Deker, Puleo, Vaughn and Ceccilini too.

      The reason I feel let down by Omar is because I believed him when he said we were going to get younger and more athletic but after 2006 he went nuts with the cash and the older player. The facts are if you feel his drafts were good imagine how much better they would have been if he hadn’t given away the pick for Alou, the two for Wagner, one each he could have gotten for Castillo and Perez. That’s FIVE first or supplemental round picks.

      For a team that chronically has 5 black holes to fill every year to spend away the future like that is one thing if your recouping the loss of talent by aggressively going over slot that’s one thing but when your combining giving away so many high draft choices with selecting for slot AND for filling needs quickly, your going to crash. Your going to run out of players. It’s inevitable.
      • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 3:56 pm

        Ahhh I knew you would use Sabermetrics to say a Saber focused FO was better than one who didn’t pay attention to WAR…

        Now tell us…which if the THREE DIFFERENT VERSIONS of WAR you used?

        The one that says a walk is almost half as good as a HR?
        Or the one that says a walk is actually worth more than a single?
• JetsMets69 May 7, 2011 at 11:22 pm

  Who said they were better? I think all this over enthusiasm for the new front office is getting out of hand. Here we are on a pace for a 90 loss season and our most reliable picther is Dillon Gee. There’s nothing to be proud of here and this might be a worse year than any other season in 10 years. Why dont we wait five years before we decide that these new guys are better than the Omar Minaya years.
  • luisdiego22002 May 8, 2011 at 9:57 am

    I agree with you 100 percent, it´s much to early to make any predictions. It also would not be fair to place the blame of a 90 loss season (which, is only a month old) totally on current management. I think that Maniac´s main contribution to any discussion with regards to management (past and present) is to, at least, keep things in perspective. Congrats, man…nice bit of investigation. Many times, we Met fans, have failed to do this only to find ourselves wishing for times gone by. So, an enlightening piece of info by Maniac and, lest we commit yet again too prematurely, let´s try keep our heads together and not to go over the edge with this.
  • Metsie May 8, 2011 at 10:24 am

    There are many who post here who think Omar was abysmal and DePo/Ricciardi were the best in the league.

    You don’t hear it much but there are a few who feel that way.

    They aren’t bad but they aren’t great and it really does not matter what they did in the past what matters is what they do in the future.

    Or maybe what CAN they do in the future with the money situation?

    They certainly have a lot to work with if the success of the few MiL guys that have come up is any indication!

    Beltran on his own may not net vast quantities or top quality but him packaged with a Duda or Evans and maybe even a Gee or Parnell could get much better in return.

    GREAT deals are never one player straight up they are usually comprised of Quantity accompanied by Quality.

    I think Sandy and company are going to do alright as they at least have shown in the past the FLEXABILITY to deal with any situation that has been dropped in their lap.

    And DePo and Ricciardi both have shown the good practice of Deeply analyzing statitical data to backup what they think they see in a player. That CAN be good provided they don’t bias the calculations towards a bad philosophy (such as My problem with ignoring BA in favor of OBP).

    And so far the few mistakes they have made have been no different than those made by Omar.
    Chris Young is starting to look like a possible bad signing if he is going to miss every third and fourth start. Emaus is already gone (thats a Ricciardi like) and both Hairston and Harris have shown nothing since the season started.

    Beato is also hurt asnd the only reason we have for not knocking them at this point is none of them cost us too much.

    Omars wasted money cost us a lot but also got us a lot. Despite Beltran’s injury when he plays he contributes daily!
    Delgado wasn’t healthy much but when he was he was a feared hitter who drove in runs!

    We are not worse off with the new FO, but we are not out of the woods yet either.

    Giove them a chance they might just impress the hell out of you.
    And if they don’t they will be gone as fast as Omar was, Maybe quicker!
• Metsie May 7, 2011 at 11:29 pm

  Oh dear I sense another conversation about McIlvane and 20 years in our future! LOL

  I personally think Omar was a very good talent evaluator and his free spending ways had more to do with the fact they almost made the WS in 2006 and tried to get one quick win in before his rebuild.

  Unfortunatly that win never happened and while many here like to think this team was a mess when Sandy took over it is really hard to say it was THAT bad when you see what Gee Pridie, Ike and all the rest of the Omar guys (save Santana and lets give Pelf an Hon mention here) are doing for us.

  But I expect my mailbox to be filled with replies before I get my first cup of coffee tomorrow!

  I personally agree with the Post!
• jessep May 8, 2011 at 8:43 am

  Thanks for posting… a few issues I have though.

  For starters in your post you list Sammy Sosa and Juan Gonzalez as 2 of 3 guys you credit Minaya with. I find it quite odd that many Omar supporters are fine with listing players like Sosa to his resume, yet the same people give Alderson trouble over McGwire or Canseco?

  And let me be clear on something… I don’t mind nor ever did mind Omar. Ask anybody here, I was called an Omar Apologist frequently. However, I recognize his faults.

  2000: First off, there’s written evidence that DePo and Ricciardi had a hand in the draft. I don’t know that Minaya was as involved in the Mets draft process as you say. Giving Omar a “win” here is just an excuse to give him a Win.

  There’s nothing in either 2000 resume that should be bragged about. If you want to compare player evaluation, you have to consider MILB numbers as well no? But regardless, 2000 has to be called a tie because not a single player meant jack to anybody on those resumes.

  2001: Giving Omar credit for David Wright to me is a stretch. I’ve never heard Steve Phillips give Omar credit for the pick while patting himself on the back, so this is where I question how much Omar had to do with the actual selections of amateur players.

  So this question does strike at the legitimacy of this argument. You can’t tell me Omar Minaya had as big a role in drafting when he was AGM as DePo and JP had… and you have to take into account their bosses too don’t you? The $ available to sign players, and the GM.

  It’s not cut and dry. I think making it out to be cut and dry is attempting to fit facts into your point of view which ever way you look.

  You also have to remember that these guys like college players more than players out of high school. Some teams do, and others don’t.

  What I find interesting about 2002 is how you totally flip your point of view. Omar goes to Montreal 2002, so NOW we take finances into consideration? But in 2000 and 2001 when he was AGM of the Mets, Oakland’s finances didn’t count?

  You see what I’m saying here? It’s not apples to apples and so much of it is in the eye of the beholder.

  2003: You call it a tie between Depo and Omar and right about here is where I sense an agenda. Are you telling me today in 2011 you’d rather have Chad Cordero over Andre Ethier? You’re totally downplaying the pick of Ethier to fit your subject here… I’m sorry but calling this a tie is insane. Chad Cordero who had 2 maybe 3 good years and hasn’t been on an MLB Radar since 2007 when he was 25 years old is “as good” of a pick as Andre Ethier? Don’t think so.

  2004: So now we only give credit when you sign somebody. Again, mixed messages. Omar’s lack of budget works in his favor, JP or DePo worked against them. I don’t take issue with choosing Lind here. Desmond was supposed to be better than he is, I think you fail to recognize how good of a prospect he once was though

  2005: Okay so just so I get this straight. You’re telling me you want quantity over quality? Romero is a much better pitcher than both Pelf and Niese. You can take a run off Romero’s ERA in the NL East and add it to Pelf and Niese. I’ll gladly take Romero on the Mets and ship Pelf and Niese to Toronto but Toronto would never do that. But, to be fair as of now the Mets netted players they need. I’m not sure bragging about Thole and Parnell adds or hurts the argument but its a fair win.

  2006: This is another place where you work your argument to be in Omar’s favor. You’re not playing by the same rules for all 3. So because the Mets traded Mulvey for the high priced Johan (contract wise) that means Omar wins? It doesn’t matter that he picked Mulvey? I thought this was all about who they picked…. how come we’re not mentioning any other trades by Depo’s teams or JP’s teams?

  2007: So again, not playing by the same rules. Arencibia is the starting catcher for Toronto, for Thole that helped net Omar a “win” but because Omar drafted Lucas Duda who has done nothing in the big leagues… its a tie? For crying out loud Brett Cecil won 15 games last year!!!!! A Tie!?!?!?!

  2008: Well done on Ike for sure

  So I hope you see I’m not trying to kill you here but I don’t think A) you were fair… I mean 2007 you were so pro-Omar I thought your name was Jeff Wilpon. B) This is an impossible argument to really have. So much goes into the drafting of a player. Injury, Coaches and Development in the minor leagues C) Your budget for signing draftees.

  I think I made a pretty fair argument that would give Depo and JP a lot more credit than you did, and the best part is, is that Sandy Alderson is the GM. How come we’re not showing his drafting resume? At the end of the day, he’s approving the pick and signing the player.
  • Metsie May 8, 2011 at 10:11 am

    Jessup it really is common knowledge that Omar pretty much did all the player evals and all the scouting depts reported to him in the Phillips regieme.

    Phillips was a great wheeler and dealer but his evaluations skills were never all that great and scouting reports was not his greatest interests. This is precisely WHY he brought in Omar who was great at those things.

    Omar’s biggest weakness was in MAKING deals. He always seemed to overvalue what he had and could never pull the trigger. A Trigger Phillips was always quick to pull (maybe too quick)

    And the problem I see with those that knock Omar is they point to the fact he hasn’t really drafted any HOFers but thats not the norm in the draft.

    Bottomline IMO was Omar was good with the Talent part, Bad with the Business part and after being in Montreal where he could spend NOTHING got a little too crazy with his new found freedom and thought he could buy a quick WS while he did what he does best which is rebuild the minors and draft some good MLB capable players.

    Unfortunatly the reason what he bought was available was due to health concerns and those concerns came home to roost.

    If they had not Omar would still be here, the mets would not have money issues and we probably would have won a WS by now.

    Water under the bridge IMO but you have to look at how the guys who come up from the Minors are doing for us and say the team wasn’t in as much of a mess as some say it was.
    No there are no top 50 list prospects there but there are plenty of guys who could reasonably be starting for a MLB team.

    Omar has a lot of bad signings but his minors are not the shambles some say they are.
    • Met Maniac May 8, 2011 at 11:04 am

      Thanks Metsie, I really didnt want to explain all of that and I figured this was common knowledge to most Mets fans.
      • Metsie May 8, 2011 at 12:09 pm

        I has season tickets back then and I got the full tour. Omar was introduced as the guy who runs and manages the Scouting and development squads and the problem here is they all read about how a baseball operation works from moneyball and they forget that what those guys did in Oakland was not much different than what Omar did under Phillips. He was essentially the ONE guy where Oakland split it up.

        every FO divides the chores up among it’s staff and the GM simply manages that staff and makes decision based on that staff’s reccomendations.

        30 Years ago you could attribute everything done to the GM because it was not as coporate a structure back then and mostly family owned businesses.

        That situation is no longer the case!
        SO I understand why they distribute credit the way they do, because they don’t really know how a modern FO works these days.

        They got a good taste of how in Moneyball. Unfortunatly they fail to extend that SAME structure to every other organization that works under the same corporate structure. And because thats the only book about an FO written to date they assume it was different than everyone else.

        But oaklands corporate structure was no different than any other team!
        And Omar served the same role as the guys they use moneyball as proof to give credit.
    • t agee May 8, 2011 at 9:19 pm

      It is most clearly NOT common knowledge (or even true) that Omar was in charge of the NY Met Scouting during his tenure here as Assistant GM.

      In 1998 when Omar was hired by Steve Phillips as AGM Gary Larocque was the Director of Amateur Scouting, Fred Wright was the Assistant Director of Amateur Scouting, Jim Duquette the Director of Player Personal, and Tom Hutchinson was his Asst.

      In 1999 Omar, in addition to his AGM duties, became the Director of INTERNATIONAL Scouting. Also in 1999 Carmen Fusco assumed the title of Director of Amateur Scouting with Gary Larouque becoming the Asst. Director of Amateur Scouting.

      Although no one here could possibly know (for a fact) who was in charge of selecting which player the facts are very clear that the sole purpose of a Director of amateur Scouting is the June amateur draft. Presumably the Asst Director of Amateur Scouting assists his boss in this function with the GM taking the best advise, reports and making the final call. I would imagine that the GM would yield to the director after a certain number of rounds but who really knows?

      One thing we do know is that the June amateur draft is followed very closely by the July INTERNATIONAL signing period. I would find it highly unlikely that in the run up to the rush to sign international amateurs, where there is no draft, an organization would have the Director of INTERNATIONAL Scouting doing someone else’s job while the most critical function of HIS job is just about to begin. Remember, this is not a draft it’s more like college recruiting with a national signing day looming.

      Common knowledge it ‘aint.
      • Metsie May 8, 2011 at 11:16 pm

        Sure it is…they all resported to the Assistant GM Omar Minaya!

        I was on the tour when Phillps describe what the roles were in a Q&A session during the Season Ticket holders yearly tour!

        Guess you missed it!
        Oh and Omar was AGM from day one! Link above proves it! Got proof he wasn’t in charge of all the scouting directors feel free to post it!
        • t agee May 9, 2011 at 12:53 am

          How could he be in charge of all the scouting directors when someone else held that title…..and had an assistant…..and that Minaya held an entirely different position. Asst GM and Director of INTERNATIONAL Scouting.

          Was it on the tour that you learned that Omar was responsible for making draft picks for us when he was working for Texas and Montreal?

          No wonder your confused.
          • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 12:52 pm

            How? He was the SENIOR AGM! The other guys were MERE DIRECTORS that report to the SENIOR AGM!

            Thats how!
• Met Maniac May 8, 2011 at 9:53 am

  Jessep. I tried to be as fair as I could be, and where there a edge as I called it I gave it to the one who was most deserving. You say I may have had an agenda, and yet I can say the same exact thing for you. You also switched points and arguments in your assessment and want this to reflect 1 win for Omar Minaya? That’s not an agenda? Let me rebut, before I do you did catch an error I made, so thank you for that. You’ll see where in my rebuttal. I didn’t credit Minaya with Sosa or Gonzalez and said so at the beginning of my contribution. I also didn’t mention Alderson because this was exactly what I intended it to be, a head to head between these three, which came from countless debates in the shoutbox, 1 or 2 that even included you.

  2000: All three were Asst. GM’s that was what I went by. Omar Minaya was as involved with scouting and drafting as Phillips was. In fact, Minaya was responsible for Reyes too which was even before the Wright selection. You want me to throw away 2000 because you think Minaya wasn’t involved with player evaluation sounds like a cop out and you wanting me to throw away 2000. If you only want data for their times as GM’s DePodesta would only have two seasons of drafts under his belt, both bad. Minaya drafted six major leaguers, against their total of two major leaguers who only got a cup of coffee and never returned. You want to make that a tie? Agenda much? Edge: Minaya

  2001: Steve Phillips never gave credit to anyone but himself. So you want me to credit Depo and Ricciardi for their non-GM draftees, but not Minaya who handpicked Jose Reyes who I wouldn’t trade one for one with anyone they ever selected? Who is the one with agenda? Mets select David Wright. Edge: Minaya

  2002 – I dint flip anything in 2002, I simply made note that Omar was now the MLB caretaker for the soon to be defunct Expos. I gave it too DePodesta, not sure what you’re arguing here. And I never took finances into account in the overall decisions, only pointed out when circumstances changed as when Depo went to LA, Ricciardi to Toronto, and Minaya to the Expos. I thought the reader should know what team each person was drafting for. Edge: DePodesta

  2003: Andre Ethier never even had one at-bat for the A’s. He was traded for Milton Bradley for chrissakes. Cordero was already an All Star long before Ethier finally made his one appearance last year. Do you not realize that Cordero was one of the elite closers before the injury? Yes it’s a tie. They were two very good ballplayers, one of them gave his all star years before Ethier even emerged, the other only recently has hit his stride. Edge: Tie between Minaya and DePodesta.

  2004: You want me to give credit for players that were never signed? Really? Agenda much? JP Ricciardi drafted a bona fide slugger in Lind vs Blake Dewitt for Depo, I cant believe you are arguing this one. And I said Omar blew this draft and reaped nothing. Arguing for the sake of arguing. Edge: Ricciardi

  2005: Romero was the only regular to come out of that draft for Ricciardi versus two-fifths of Mets starting rotation in Mike Pelfrey and Jon Niese, a hard throwing reliever in Bobby Parnell, and their starting catcher Josh Thole. Edge: Minaya

  2006: What do you mean I didn’t recognize trades for the other two? I most certainly did throughout at the cost of great time and research. I mentioned the trade for Ethier, the trade for Bush and couple of others. I also stated in the beginning of this piece that notable trades of draft selections would count for or against because that would be a part of this exercise. Now if you are referring to trades made for players in the 23rd round, I was only analyzing each guy’s first 10 rounds of picks. You are free to do a more extensive analysis. Edge: Minaya

  2007: You got me on this one and it was 1:00 AM and I was getting exhausted. That was a big mistake on my part. Hojo if you would be so kind as to give this one to Ricciardi and update my post I would greatly appreciate it. Edge: Ricciardi

  2008: Edge: Minaya

  I know you’re not trying to kill me even though I have no written evidence of it, unless this counts?

  Much of this is all semantics. We each have our favorites, and we have our loyalties. If you had done this maybe on close calls you would have given one of the other two the benefit of the doubt, and maybe subconsciously I did the same thing, but I don’t think so.

  If all I did was manage to convince those who have argued with me in the last 5 months that Depo and Ricciardi are not heads over heels better than Minaya, than I’m content. I felt there was too much being said about their skills versus Minaya and I wanted to step in and say, “Not Really.”
  • jessep May 8, 2011 at 10:46 am

    Maniac: I didn’t even know it was you that posted this. Guess I was right about the agenda though huh?

    Here is what you fail to observe about comparing them as AGM’s. There is written proof that DePodesta and Ricciardi had a hand in drafting with Oakland. Is there proof that Phillips gave that power to Omar? There may be… but unless you show me that, this is not an apples to apples comparison because for all you know Omar’s role with the Mets as AGM was international scouting and not domestic.

    Lets just assume you have that evidence though because it makes the debate occur.

    2000: You’re giving Omar credit for guys who came up to the bigs and were terrible. I don’t see how that’s something to brag about. I mean that’s like saying the Pirates GM 6 years ago was better than Brian Cashman because he had more draft picks come up to the bigs. They may have been terrible, but he wins because he had more come to the bigs? That’s a silly argument.

    2001: If you write a piece about Omar’s international scouting and scouting and signing Reyes in 99, point taken. But again, you don’t have the evidence to suggest Omar drafted David Wright. So because he worked for the team that drafted David Wright then he wins? I mean, it just doesn’t work. This is likely why nobody compares draft picks to legitimize an executive in major league baseball.

    2003: So here is where you’re full of it. Andre Ethier doesn’t count because he was traded but Kevin Mulvey counts because he netted Johan Santana? Which is it? Do trades count, or do they not? You lose credibility if you try and tell me Andre Ethier and Chad Cordero were or are equals.

    2005: Being 2/5 of the Mets rotation doesn’t mean you are better than Romero. It just means the Mets rotation isn’t that good. Romero would be a real #1 for the Mets right now. Not a guy we hope can be a #1. He’s not a #1 for most teams, but he would be for the Mets. I’m fine with quantity over quality but you’re bragging about guys most teams wouldn’t start. Thole being our starting catcher doesn’t mean he’s good, it means the Mets don’t have anybody else.

    2006: See Ethier reasoning. We’re either talking about quality of the player drafted or quality of trading prospects?

    I think what you’re trying to do is tell me Omar would be a better AGM than DePo or JP. You may be right… but does it matter? DePo is working on the scouting and JP is the Asst GM… and at the end of the day they answer to Alderson and work within his plan. So if you don’t look into Alderson, then this argument is totally a waste of time.
    • Met Maniac May 8, 2011 at 10:58 am

      Metsie made my point on Omar Minaya, so read his comment. And as I already said Phillips never gave anyone credit but himself for anything. He even still tries to say he took 2000 Mets to world series not Bobby Valentine.

      If you dont like the argument than dont argue. This was based on real argument comparing the three in the shoutbox time and time and time again. If you dont like my contribution, the argument, and the time I took to research all this data, then move on.

      This was intended for those who know who they are. It was MY argument spelled out to the letter. If you dont agree, than move along, God knows I hardly agree with anything you have to say on the matter. By the way, how is Brad Emaus doing these days?
      • jessep May 8, 2011 at 11:03 am

        See when you end something like that “how is brad emaus doing” you prove you cannot defend yourself when questioned. I’ve made a ton of valid points, as did you. So a Rule 5 pick that I liked because our 2B situation was a mess didn’t work out? What does that mean? I didn’t buy an Emaus jersey… we needed a 2B and they grabbed one.

        BTW Emaus is doing quite well in AAA right now for Colorado.
        • Met Maniac May 8, 2011 at 11:18 am

          By the way, most hitters do quite well in Colorado Springs (or Las Vegas), but all kidding aside a little barb was in order, lighten up.
    • jessep May 8, 2011 at 10:59 am

      I’m not saying some of your points or your post is invalid. I mean I think you’re totally off your rocker with regards to Ethier who would be the best player on the Mets right now.

      But… I just think comparing drafts is such a random thing. You don’t know the scouting budgets each team had, you don’t know the development budgets each team had, you don’t know the amateur signing budgets each team had. It’s not like the NFL where we see the players develop and can evaluate players progress on a weekly basis.

      For me, I don’t even know if I like Omar over DePo or JP. I think they are 3 totally different people who go about things totally different. I think Omar had a luxury of $ when JP and DePo usually did not. We get on the Mets for not drafting above slot to save $, but consider what they would spend is likely more than Toronto or Oakland did. I’d love to see financial breakdowns of signing bonus etc.

      I think Omar’s skill level is in international scouting, I think any team would love to have him direct that department.

      Frankly, what impresses me most about JP is in the division he played in, fielding a respectable team with a limited budget and an ownership situation that was not stable. I don’t think he got enough credit for that. Did they win the division? No… but they were respectable.

      For DePo, I really don’t know yet. I think I need to wait and see how he does and re-evaluate over the next 3 years…his job is so specific to player development and amateur scouting. So the draft and whoever the Mets get for players like Beltran (if traded), and how they develop will also be a big factor in this
      • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 11:29 am

        Well I will point out Jessup that the budget is pretty well known going into the draft on what you HAVE to spend. You know roughly where you will draft and what the going rate is based on similar draft position from the previous year.

        Only thing the budget can affect is ability to go overslot which is why the guidelines exist in the first place to stop some rich team from stealing a poor teams pick.

        SO the Budget should not be a major factor here and if the overslot practice actually hurts poorer teams them maybe the rules of the draft should be changed to stop the practice and if a team can’t afford some guy they drafted they should at least be allowed to trade him to the team who can and at least get some player back in return.

        Right now they are just guidelines but if it really is a problem that needs a gudeline then change the guideline to a rule and make every team scout better from the get go instead of using a loophole in the rules to have a better draft than they should.
      • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 11:40 am

        One point to add…Doesn’t where you draft have as much to do with it’s success as money?

        From the years of 1998-2000 They were second in the division and won the pennant in 2000
        They were 3rd in the Division in 2001 and 5th in 2002.

        Omar leaves and they were 5th, 4th and 3rd respectively.

        Those three years should have netted the best picks since the tream was so bad.

        Guys like Wright were drafted when this team was a competing team.
        Ike Davis was drafted in the year we were #2 in the Division.
        Murphy in 2006 when we were #1 in the Div.

        So how can you blast a guy for drafting some good players when he was not drafting until late in the draft due to team success?

        Now I will wait to compare the new guys to Omar after they have had a few years of drafting here under OUR conditions to decide.

        But I think many people are forgetting that most of the guys who can be attributed to Omar bringing in were all brought in under conditions where the team success hurt him and that is WAY more limiting to a team than how much money they have to spend because all the other teams who pick ahead of you get first crack and your choices are fewer when it finally gets down to you.
    • Metsie May 8, 2011 at 12:00 pm

      What would constitute proof to you?

      Lack of proof doesn’t mean it isn’t true if you followed the Mets back in the Phillips days you would already know this but my guess is you were either too young to pay attention or did not follow what went on back then.

      The Proof is out there in many quotes about Reyes’ aquisition. The scout found him called OMAR and OMAR said to sign him! NOT Phillips but OMAR! The Scout did not call Phillips so what does that tell you about the rest of the scouting department that existed under the Mets at the time?

      THEY REPORTED TO OMAR, Not Phillips. Omar reported to Phillips just as DiPo and Ricciardi reported to Sandy and Beane!

      If you know anything about how a corporate structure works you understand that the guy at the top does not micromanage what happens he has staff that do that. The guys you claim have written proof were doing the same job OMAR was doing!
      They are as much proof that those roles serve the same functions and the GM only intervenes by either agreeing with his staff or disagreeing. In Philliops case he ALWAYS followed what his staff said and even said so many times that Omar convinced him to make moves he was hesitant to make based on his evaluation skill.

      Anyway you want to slice it the Assistant to the GM is usually the guy in charge of scouting and player analysis charged with whittling down the choices and weeding out the bad so that the final decision can be made by the GM. And so most of the the GM does is only as good as the staff he hires.

      Michael Eisner once said he had a ton more power to make a positive impact on ABC when he was a middle manager than he had when he was CEO of Disney who owned ABC.

      The GM and CEO and all the guys we identify at the top really do not make the important decisions other than who to hire to make his administration work.

      Corporation work just as much as a TEAM as any sport does!
      It takes a multitude of good people to put together success! And they ALL deserve credit! The middle managers for doing the job well and the GM for hiring the guys who DID that job well!

      To give credit to only the guy in charge is like saying the Seals had nothing to do with the success of killing OBL that Obama did it all on his own.
      And he wouldn’t have done ANYTHING if his middle managers in the intelligence field did not say to him WE SHOULD DO THIS!

      This has been posted the last time we
      • Metsie May 8, 2011 at 12:02 pm

        sorry for the straggler at the end.
      • t agee May 8, 2011 at 10:54 pm

        The Director of Amateur Scouting in 1998 was Gary Larocque, Fred Wright was his Asst. In 1999-2003 Carmen Fusco assummed the title of Director of Amateur Scouting with Laroque moving down to his Asst. These are the guys who ran Phillips drafts (not something you would really want on your resume by the way) in the same way that Russ Bove ran Omar’s first draft in 2005 and Rusy Terrases ran his 2006-2010 draft.

        Omar was the Director of INTERNATIONAL Scouting from 1999-2002 under Steve Phillips. The signing period for International amateurs immediatly follows the draft and International scouting directors are busy with the IFA end of the business and typically have no involvement in the draft.

        I know the reason this has become an issue with Metsie is because he’s trying to glom credit for Omar in regards to drafting Wright but Omar was on the INTERNATIONAL side of the scouting.

        Personally I feel we were very lucky Wright was still available at #38 after taking Heilman twenty spots earlier.
        • Metsie May 8, 2011 at 11:12 pm

          Well Sorry Omar was Assitant GM not director of International scouting..

          So much for that attempt at calling me a liar!

          http://www.baseballamerica.com/execdb/?show=exec&eid=minayom01

          Yes he handled the International once that department was created. It did not exist until 1999.

          1998 Omar was hired as Asst GM and wALL SCOUTING DIRECTORS reported to him!

          Nice try once again to throw up a ton of info to cloud the fact that Omar was ASST GM from DAY ONE! And he handles all of the scouting departments from the day he got there!

          Which means Wright is as much a product of Omar as anyone!

          Add to it if Phillips likied Wright so much why did he try to dump him for crap two weeks after Omar went to GM the Expos?

          You never did answer that question when it was posed last time.

          Gonna hide from it again this time?
          • t agee May 9, 2011 at 12:39 am

            I didn’t hide from anything. I answered your question before and I’ll repeat it now. Just because Phillips tried to trade Wright doesn’t mean he didn’t like him. Phillips traded everyone. Anyone with any value whatsoever was traded off. Isringhausen, Cruz, Escobar, Bay, any prospect he could get something for that could help right NOW. I mean really, we’re talking about who makes the call on drafting a player and your trying to claim that because that GM then sought to trade him, he had nothing to do with choosing him. That’s ridiculous. By that rationale he Phillips must have loved Bobby Bonilla and Mo Vaughn.

            As for Omar’s duties I’ve said it a million times. Omar was the Asst. GM AND in 1999 assumed the title of Director of INTERNATIONAL Scouting. INTERNATIONAL.

            The Mets had two different Directors of Amateur scouting during Minaya’s tenure here and both had asst’s. Omar’s end of the Scouting was INTERNATIONAL. Same with Texas. That’s why he’s always been linked to players who came from OUTSIDE THE US. Players like Juan Gonzalez and Ivan Rodriguez (before PR was included in the draft) Tatis, Reyes, Timo and Sosa.

            Because the Director of INTERNATIONAL Scouting is in charge of the scouts that scout INTERNATIONAL players.

            The two guys that ran Phillips drafts are Gary Labroque and Carmen Fusco and both had asst Director’s of amateur scouting working for them.

            I don’t know why this is so difficult for you to understand. International deals with players that are not eligable for the June Amateur draft. They get recruited and signed. The signing period for INTERNATIONAL amateurs is July 2nd. The Director of INTERNATIONAL Scouting is busy recruiting those players that he wants to sign while the guys who run the draft are doing THEIR jobs.

            The titles of the guys who ran Omar’s drafts coincidentally had the same titles as the one’s who ran Phillips drafts, Director of Amateur scouting. First their was Russ Bove and he was followed by Rudy Terasses.

            You have some desperate irrational need to credit Omar with drafting Wright when there is absolutely no evidence linking Omar to any of the NY Met drafts until he became the GM in 2005. It’s the same rationale you used to claim that Omar drafted Nick Evans, Scott Kazmir and AJ Burnett when Omar wasn’t even working for the Mets.

            Steve Phillips drafts were among the worst drafts of all time. Why do you continue to insist that Omar was involved in them when his side of the scouting business was INTERNATIONAL?

            The scouts that scouted Wright would have reported to the DIRECTOR OF AMATEUR SCOUTING, not the DIRECTOR OF INTERNATIONAL SCOUTING, unless Virginia was considered to be outside of the United States in 2001.

            Why is the concept of International vs. domestic so difficult for you to comprehend?
            • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 10:51 am

              And I suppose in 1998 before he HAD this title you pin all your hopes on all he did was get everyone coffee right?

              What did he do as AGM and nothing else in 1998? HUH?

              The guy you say was director of scouting was not AGM!
              He was just a director!
              • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 11:01 am

                Here is a full list of the Front office and thier titles in 1998!

                http://www.baseballamerica.com/execdb/?show=team&fid=nym&year=1998

                So nice try twisting history dude but the guy you claim was in charge of scouting was not also an AGM.

                Duquette was AGM of Player Development, He saw to the development of the guys the scouting said to draft and we did draft.

                Not until Omar left did Duquette take over both sides of the coin.

                Sorry but Baseball Reference shows pretty clearly that Omar was the #2 in the organization and despite also serving as the head of the international dept he still retained all his oversight on the rest of the team scouting as well!

                Because he was an AGM and the guy you think was in charge was nothing but a director.
            • Nester May 9, 2011 at 11:06 am

              I’m no fan of Omar Minaya, but I have to right a wrong here. Omar Minaya was the Senior Assistant General Manager and oversaw all the other subordinate titles you listed. They all answered to Minaya who answered to Phillips. Minaya had a big hand in all scouting and drafting and was not just an international director, not by a log shot.

              Also, regarding the Bartolo Colon trade Minaya made that someone referred to in another comment, Minaya had one objective as overseer of the Expos, he was under orders from Selig to make the team win as many games as they could at all costs and to make the team as competitive as possible to attract a new buyer. The prospects he gave up were years away, and Colon at the time was a 20 game winner, who went on to win 76 games in the following 4 years.
              • Nester May 9, 2011 at 11:11 am

                One other thing I forgot to mention, but when Fred Wilpon introduced Omar Minaya after he was hired. He said that the Mets were already thrilled with his player evaluation skills and saw first hand what an asset he was and that he had a hand in many of the Mets current top prospets some of who are already a significant part of the major league team. That was in October of 2004. The only players that Wilpon could have been refeerring to was Heilman, Wright and Reyes.
              • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 11:21 am

                Thank you Nester!

                I also would never claim Omar was a great GM he is good at what he does (evaluate and scout players) but he it takes more than just that to be a good GM and build a winning team (See Billy Beane!)

                The problem is they want to provide evidence of how awful he was compared to Dipo and Ricciardi and the only way they can do that is to get rid of reyes and wright who throws the wrench into their agenda.

                It’s just sad when fans of a team feel the need to trash a guy who did a pretty good job when you look at all those names that form the basis of our team now merely because he didn’t use Sabers or Moneyball or because he signed two or three bad contracts to make up for the fact that the MiL was so bad when he came back that he had to buy talent to field a decent team and in doing so he got to within one game of the WS.

                I think the guys who are here may do a very good job. Will they do it better than Omar? I certainly hope so!
                But their past doesn’t show them to be draft and evaluation genius’!

                And if we look at the aquisitions they have made so far you have to say they have made some of the same mistakes Omar did only for much less money!

                Hariston, Harris, Emaus, Hu and Carrasco have done pretty much nothing.
                Young appears to be hurt, Beato too!

                Is that reason enough to say get rid of them? Hardly!
                I say lets see what happens with the FO and team in three years time and decide then if they really are better or worse than what we had!
              • t agee May 10, 2011 at 9:15 pm

                Right, and the Director of Amateur Scouting and HIS assistant didn’t run the draft like all the other 29 MLB teams.

                I guess what your really trying to point out is that Omar was also responsible for the THIRTEEN washouts drafted in the first, second and third round of the Phillips regieme.

                OK.
              • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 10:37 pm

                You have yet to prove ANY team just lets their Director make a decision without getting final approval from his boss first!

                When you do prove this ASSUMPTION please feel free to share it all with us.
                Name one Director on THIS team that doesn’t ask Sandy and his AGMs who to take in the Draft!
      • t agee May 9, 2011 at 12:47 am

        The Reyes signing just proves my point. The scout called Omar because Omar was the Asst. GM AND Director of INTERNATIONAL Scouting.

        Reyes as a Dominican national was not eligable for the draft.

        The scouts who scout players outside the US and Puerto Rico report to the Director of INTERNATIONAL Scouting. If Reyes had been eligable for the US draft the scout would have called Gary LaBroque since he was the guy who ran the draft.

        Why is those so difficult for you to understand?
        • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 11:10 am

          You live in Bizzarro world dude. Because there is an example where Omar didn’t report to Phillips at all it means Phillips made EVERY decision?

          In 2001 Omar was the SENIOR AGM the only person in the FO to hold that title!
          Why did he get that bump up in his title?

          Because they wanted to promote the guys who had been reporting to him (Fusco and Laroche) to AGM titles but maintain the chain of command so they gave Omar the SENIOR AGM title! MEans he managed pretty much ALL of the AGMs on behalf of Phillips!

          Sorry that you can’t see the truth when it is presented quite clearly to you.

          I have showed My proof that he WAS in charge of all the scouting, now show some proof that says he didn’t as his AUXILLIARY Title of International Director does not disprove the fact that everyone else in the organization reported to the #2 guy in the leadership after doubleday and wilpon!
          • t agee May 10, 2011 at 9:17 pm

            What is your proof? That you took a tour? What kind of proof is that?
            • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 10:46 pm

              I posted the link did your internet break?

              Well don’t worry here it is again…

              http://www.baseballamerica.com/execdb/?show=team&fid=nym&year=2001

              Lets play WHO IS THE BOSS?

              Minaya or Duquette?
              Senior AGM or the AGM?

              Minaya or Fusco?
              Senior AGM or the AGM?

              In other words…the SENIOR MANAGES THE JUNIOR!

              BOTH DEVELOPMENT and SCOUTING AGMs reported to the SENIOR!

              This is the year in which David Wright was DRAFTED!
      • t agee May 9, 2011 at 4:08 pm

        Great Metsie. We’re talking the draft and your bringing up quotes about Minaya and Reyes to prove your point that Minaya drafted Wright.

        How about bringing up some quotes about Minaya drafting Wright since that’s the topic of conversation. It’s not going to be easy to find any though because they don’t exist. Minaya was in charge of the international end of Scouting. Fusco and Labreque handled the domestic end and Phillips made the call on Wright.

        Of course he left it to chance by selecting Heilman with the 18th pick and then lucked out that no one took Wright before we picked again at #38.
        • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 6:32 pm

          No YOUR talking draft because you want to get rid of Reyes as a count and you want to quickly change the subject from CHAIN OF COMMAND to drafting because you knew the title thing was killing you!

          SENIOR ASSISTANT GM is a bit more then your assertion was all he did was International!

          In fact Omar practically ran the entire scouting department while Phillips was on the phone making trades or banging employees!
• Met Maniac May 8, 2011 at 9:57 am

  New and updated scorecard:

  (W-L-T)

  Minaya: 4-3-2
  Depodesta: 1-7-1
  Ricciardi: 2-5-2
  • Hojo's Mojo May 8, 2011 at 12:11 pm

    Your new information has been included in your 2007 summary, and your original chart was removed as requested and replaced with your updated stats for the tale of the tape segment.
• XtreemIcon May 8, 2011 at 10:50 am

  Nice post. Really good research. I’m very impressed not only with your research but also with your willingness to engage jessep and your open-mindedness to update your scorecard based on his critiques. I always appreciate the research and the opinions based on fact and knowledge (whether or not I agreed with the points being made), something a certain like-minded poster here always neglects or refuses to do.

  Since I’m never above a shameless plug, here’s a link that can be followed up with. http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/03/wheres-omar-minaya-i-want-him-back.html
  • Met Maniac May 8, 2011 at 11:02 am

    Thanks, I appreciate your comment. By the time I got to the end of this it was so late and 2007 and 2008 became almost a blur. Ricciardi made a great pick with Brett Cecil who I actually like a lot and completely overlooked.
• Mr North Jersey May 8, 2011 at 12:40 pm

  Good post overall Maniac I have issues with some of your conclusions that have already been expressed above so I won’t bother repeating them again.

  For me all I know is as the GM of the Mets for 6 years Minaya had little to show as far as his drafting both amateur and International and the little he did show came when he already failed the Mets and had no longer a chance of saving his job. The Minaya era is over he failed and I am happy he is gone time for change and hopefully the change will be for better. We will know in about another 3 years.

  Minaya’s legacy has yet to be written and as I have said time and time again his best work may come long after he is gone I will give him all the accolades he deserves as they come.

  As far as the New guys the same rule applies their best work may come now after their time with their prior organizations for our Mets. I will give them all the accolades they deserves as they come as well.

  Nice post though.
  • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 11:50 am

    MNJ just something to think about….

    Is the viewed lack of draft prospects (which if you include Ike and Murphy Wright and Reyes a sort of mis conception) due to the fact that the guys we drafted were no good or merely because they could not be brought up due to our insistence on buying new guys every year and having no place to play them?

    Pagan was a guy we drafted, gave up on and the re-aquired. Would we have gotten rid of him in the first place if there was room in the OF to play him?

    Ike Davis would still be in the Minors right now if Murphy and Jacobs did not get hurt last year!

    The bottom line on drafts has a lot to do with drafting players you can PLAY!
    Murphy was a natural 3B and he’s only playing 2B right now because who would replace David Wright with Murphy? SO now they seem to have salvaged that pick and maybe they should not have made that pick and instead gotten a player they COULD use at his natural opinion.

    But when you draft in the middle or late in the pack sometimes there is no decent player of NEED or potential need and you have to resign yourself to taking the best player on the board and hope you can turn it into a contribution either via trade or by converting him to something you do need as was the case with Murphy.

    If you want to pin any problems on Omar it would be not seeing the talent he had selected and keep wasting it in the Minors by going after FA all stars that removed the need those guys could have filled!
    • t agee May 9, 2011 at 4:17 pm

      Maniac, who was preventing us from drafting a second basemen? A RFer? A LFer? A catcher? Who was blocking all these guys we could have drafted? Ryan Church? Brian Schneider or Omir Santos? Luis Castillo or Joaquin Arias? Moises Alou?

      This team is so far removed from worrying about prospects getting blocked it’s not even funny. In fact how do you account for all the prospects we’ve brought up here before they were ready? Guys like Pelfrey, Mejia, Humber, Kunz, Milledge, Gomez, Johnson, Fern, Tejada, Thole, Parnell. Not one of these guys made a positive contribution in their first go around up here.

      They weren’t blocked by anyone. That’s the problem.
      • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 9:27 am

        Excuse me but we have Murphy at 2B and Thole at Catcher, Pagan played CF then RF last year…

        SO where do you get we didn’t draft those positions?
        • t agee May 10, 2011 at 9:49 am

          Now your arguing just to argue. I was responding to Maniac’s decleration that in years past, by drafting in the middle of the pack there was no good player to draft at an area of need but this is lame. We’ve had four chronic areas of need that we have had to import solutions or go free agent on because we had no one.

          Pagan doesn’t hit enough to be an everyday RFer. He does hit well enough to be a CFer and has a gold glove out there but is he going to give you Jasan Heyward, Jason Werth, Mike Stanton like offense in RF. No he is not. RF is a position in which we have developed only one player who made an All Star team.

          Was Murphy groomed to play 2B? Was anyone expecting him to be playing 2B in 2011? Did anyone ever say lets not sign Luis Castillo to a four year contract cause he’ll be blocking Murphy at 2B?

          Thole got some playing time in 2009. Why? Because our catching situation was him Omir santos, Robinson Cancel and Raul Casanova after Schneider went down again. Josh is a decent 1/2 of a catching tandem but very few teams would have him up here even as a backup right now.

          LF has now been addressed for the 8th time in thirty years with a free agent. Obviously no one has been blocked for a very long time in LF. LF is also a position in which we have developed exactly on All Star and that was 40 years ago. What are we waiting for?
          • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 12:00 pm

            “Now your arguing just to argue”

            Yes I’m fighting now for the cause of FAIRNESS IN ASESSMENT! fighting:
            1 – Dual Standards
            2 – Extreme Viewpoints
            3 – Agenda, not fact driven statistical presentation
            4 – SUBJECTIVE data presented to trump OBJECTIVE data.
            5 – People who will go to know limits to malign one approach to promote a FAILED approach that because a book was written about it makes it the bible according to baseball!

            The Gospels of BEANE, OBP and SABERS

            All are useful to some degree. Just not in the proportions noted in the book. And as many would have them be around here!
            • t agee May 10, 2011 at 12:27 pm

              Well I’m not a proponent of any of those things other than keeping your OB high and 3 very good and sound reasons. #1 by not swinging at balls you get better pitches to hit, like in your Murphy example. #2 when you do hit in bad luck or go into a slump, you are not bogging down the offense, your still helping to turn the line up over which means more AB’s for #3, #4, and #5 which are typically your best hitters. One more AB by each of them per game makes a huge difference. And #3 the most important reason, you can look for, get, and crush a 2-0 or 3-1 pitch in a way you cannot in a defensive 0-1 or 1-2 count. The only way to get into a 2-0 or 3-1 count is to not swing at balls.

              As for the rest of it I’m ambivalent on it all. Some good, some bad but most would find your viewpoints extreme and agenda driven. I don’t make up stuff to butress my opinions. I don’t claim one man’s accomplishments for another one I like better. I don’t have dual standards and I don’t know that moneyball was a failed approach for the A’s. I think there was every chance that was the best approach for the A’s to take. Calling Moneyball the bible according to baseball is a very extreme viewpoint, one that I’ve never heard from anyone else except you.

              I recently made a mention of how poor the A’s 2002 “moneyball” draft was. Before Maniac’s article.

              I’m perfectly willing to consider other opinions but not when people back their opinions with falsehoods. No one ever disputes the facts that I put in my posts. Length and agenda is the most frequent complaint, not substance, because I don’t make it up as I go.
          • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 12:13 pm

            Now onto the previous topic.

            “Pagan doesn’t hit enough to be an everyday RFer”

            Really? What does a RF/CF have to hit?

            .290BA .340OBP .425SLG isn’t hitting enough?

            I guess Strawberries grow on trees in the MLB right?

            “Did anyone ever say lets not sign Luis Castillo to a four year contract cause he’ll be blocking Murphy at 2B?”

            No they said “we have Castillo for 4 years lets get something we need somewhere else!”

            And remember Castillo’s contract would run out at the end of this year. You ever hear of a guy named “Havens”? Is not Justin Turner and Murphy manning the position because we CUT Castillo?

            Bottomline a pretty good guy and hitter is playing 2B right now and I hope to hell that doesn’t hurt Haven’s ability in the future.

            “Thole got some playing time in 2009. Why?”
            Because No one had a plan to replace Piazza when he was starting to decline and Omar was busy drafting you a 1B, and Pitching and all the other things the previous administration had failed to plan for!

            The results have been listed many times!
            • t agee May 10, 2011 at 1:15 pm

              Right. The previous administration failed to plan for. That’s my point. This has been going on since 1998 and while it got a lot better under Omar, by year 7 (this year) it should have been fully on track but it wasn’t mostly because of the short term benefits of the expensive free agent outweighed the long term benefits of building a real team. By now we should have had it.

              Yeah I can see Pedro and Beltran, Delgado and Wagner but I can’t see a #1 for Alou, 5 players for an injured JJ Putz, one of whom would have at the least been a healthy option for our rotation.

              I can’t see giving up two #1 draft picks for a designated hitter. I can’t see tying up payroll and a roster spot for four years on a 32 year old second basemen who needs surgery on both knees and would have returned a supplementary round draft choice if allowed to go to Houston.

              I can’t see tying up 36 Million on Perez (not that I thought he would collapse the way he did, I didn’t. I expected him to be maddeningly inconsistent and not worth half of what he got) I would have gladly taken the supplementary round pick HE would have left behind.

              I would have expected that Omar would have made the type of moves along the way to address certain positions like Washington made with their catching situation. When Nathan went down and with Mauer entrenched, the Twins needed a closer. Washington traded Matt Capps and received Wilson Ramos, the guy who had two HR’s against us last week. A guy who’s a fully developed, defensively sound, inexpensive and under team control for six years, young catcher. That’s a combination we don’t have, and haven’t for a very long time.

              Heyward (first round #14) had a better season in his rookie year than Pagan will ever have. Pagan is not offensively a RFer.

              Turner and Hernandez were cut by Baltimore. Murphy is doing a good job and a guy like that that allows you to spend the 6 million elsewhere is a big help and a much better usage of your payroll than signing yet another frequently injured shell of their former selves. Anderson Hernandez would have been a better alternative at 2B with the 6 Mil going to starting pitching or a Matt Capps type deal for a AA 2B with Hernandez bookmarking 2B for a year and another potential prospect coming from the supplementary round pick Castillo would have left behind. That pick, combined with going overslot could have netted Mike Montgomery one of the top LHP in the minors now in AAA and cost a hell of a lot less than the 24 million we paid Castillo. About 20 less million to be exact.

              We knew the moment Piazza signed his seven year deal we were going to need a catcher in 2003, 2004 or 2005. Phillips did well getting Pratt off waivers but he was just as old. Omar swung a deal with the Marlins during one of their fire sales for lo Duca. One good year one bad, then it was on to a guy Omar knew from his Montreal days. Schneider. 2 bad years, then Barajas/Blanco. A mixed bag but no long term answer there.

              Ike wasn’t drafted until 2008, what was the plan for catcher? Just see who’d hanging around every year? That’s a good plan especially when you have a couple of young pitchers in your rotation.

              You cannot make up for the mistakes of the previous regime by always putting the short term ahead of the long term. If Omar had looked long term he’d still be here, sitting in first place, the toast of the town.
              • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 2:15 pm

                “This has been going on since 1998″

                Been going on since long before 1998!

                Where was the 1B to replace Hernandez?
                Where was the RF to replace Strawberry?
                Where was the catcher to replace Carter?
                Who was the pitcher who was gonna carry us when Gooden, Darling, and Ojeda were gone?

                GENERATION K?

                The regime that left us with the option of signing the most expensive failure in baseball history?

                It’s been a long hard road to our problems and hardly any of it can be atrributed to Omar’s lack of skills!

                This is what I tried to get across to you during the 20 year thread. While we were not developing since the early to mid 80′s and we were spending to remain competitive but only competitive enough to never get a sniff of the top overall or top 10 picks, Teams like the Braves and Phillies who were truly awful while we were not were getting ALL those good players with those high draft selections that helped them build a core to build around.

                It took us almost two decades to build another such core after the 69 core was made and petered out after 73 and it took all the teams that you think were good in those 20 years longer streaks of losing to get there!

                The fact that it only took a few FA signings to get us as close as we came to a WS says we were not as bad off as some here believed.
                And maybe that has a lot to do with the fact that we HAD those guys we got before Omar left and the reason we didn’t have much else was BECAUSE he left and stopped influencing the decision we were making!

                But I don’t expect you to give Omar that much credit given your current bias’ towards him.
• Lenny May 8, 2011 at 10:07 pm

  Scouting and drafting is 99% luck and 1% skill, thats why busts outnumber stars 100 to 1. If Omar’s greatest talent was based on luck, they should have never named him GM. Omar was nothing but a pimp in a $900 dollar suit.
• Donal May 9, 2011 at 10:03 am

  As I’ve said beofre, my views on Omar have softened the firther we get from his era, but I still think he failed. Whether or not it was his fault is a different discussion. I really don’t want to bash him right now.

  However, there are some errors and misrepresentations in here.

  1) As stated before Omar was in charge of International Scouting. Last time I checked, Virginia was allowed back into the Union, so you can’t credit him with finding David Wright.

  2)As I’ve said many times, Michael Lewis took some liberties with the facts in order to create some more dram in Moneyball. Beane actually has a lot of respect for that scout he suppsoedly ridiculed in Chapter 2. That scout went with Depodesta to run the scouting department of the Padres and then returned to Beane to become the ehad of scouting for As again, so here is soemthing there.

  3) Moneyball is about an experiment. The As were working under different circumstances than the Mets. A lot of the things they tried are considered busts because the As were trying to get away from a system that they weren’t equipped to work.

  4) We don’t know what went on behind the scenes. As much as I want to bash Omar for the lousy moves (and there are plenty) there will always be the stories of Jeff Wilpon interefering with baseball operations. The same with Ricciardi and Depodesta. Ricciardi’s situation in Toronto isn’t that cut and try and had to deal with a lot of ownership meddling after Rogers died. As for Depodesta, this may shock you, but the McCourts apparently did not provide the most stable work environment.

  5) You do have a double standard on a few points.

  6) You assume just because someone got promoted on Omar’s watch means he was good or all that able to contribute to the team. Guys like Pelfrey, Mejia and Fernando Martinez got pushed through the system too quickly for what seems like reasons other than that. More like to just sell tickets and distract us from the problems the team was facing. Kind of like the Nats did with Strasburgh.
  • Donal May 9, 2011 at 10:05 am

    That said, you obviously did a ton of work on this. Well done.
• jessep May 9, 2011 at 10:53 am

  A lot has been said that I would have said. But here’s my final point on this.

  When you compare the MLB Draft GM versus GM, you’re not doing either GM or their franchise justice.

  From the day you draft a player: you have to sign him, you have to have the coaches in the minor leagues to develop him, you have to have the right players in the minor leagues already to help where the coaches can not, you have to avoid injuries, and you have to avoid creating a glass ceiling for the player such as for example the Yankees have done with their catchers. At some point those guys need MLB experience because they’ve likely learned all they can at AAA without using it with the big club.

  Sure, you can always compare picks if you’d like. But there’s literally no way to truly do a fair comparison.

  We can criticize the picks DePo made with Oakland or JP in Toronto but the fact is their franchises had different budgets, and a different mindset/criteria for drafting.

  Beane likes or liked college players more than High School players. Therefore, that is what they focused more of their attention on. Do you know that this is how Sandy Alderson thinks?

  Do you know what the Mets budget for amateur’s was when Omar was in NY? Was it more or less than Oakland or Toronto?

  I get the fun in comparing them but it can just go in a circle.

  All that matters to me with Omar is he fell short on a big league level and didn’t have a farm system strong enough to fill in the holes so he was forced to spend money poorly. That’s just a fact. Most teams do not have to go buy an entire bullpen, most teams don’t have to purchase an entire bench, and most teams have a plan in place for when their “go for it all” cycle ends. Omar didn’t have one. That’s just a fact.

  So I’m going to give Alderson and his team a 2-3 year window to get things done. Omar had his chance and he failed. He ran into some bad luck of course, but he also made poor decisions in response to that bad luck and dug the Mets into a giant hole.

  Any Mets fan who is sitting and waiting for Alderson to fail so that they can praise Omar is really missing the point.

  Alderson’s stamp on this team will be seen at the June draft, and in July when he hopefully tears this whole thing apart and starts over with an actual gameplan.
• jessep May 9, 2011 at 11:21 am

  Metsie:

  Can I ask a silly question? What does it matter?

  At the end of the day, there isn’t 1 single person within a Major League team that can and should take credit for the draft. It’s totally absurd to even try to say Omar or DePo or JP were responsible for every single pick, each and every year.

  Do I think Omar had a hand in the draft? Totally. He was a high level executive for the Mets. But if you’re going to try to tell me he was the end all decider on draft picks then you’re nuts.

  I mean this article is giving JP credit for the 2000 draft but he’s just a Special Assistant to the GM at that time? If you think the Scouting Directors have nothing to do with the draft pick that is made, then aren’t you just minimizing the value of scouts which is what DePo and JP get accused of?

  All the Omar supporters seem to be doing is saying he was responsible 100% for every amateur player and 2 guys were solely responsible in Oakland, Toronto etc.
  • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 12:00 pm

    I agree Jessup, Like I said in one of my posts, the front office is as much a TEAM SPORT and the game of baseball itself!

    Im my opinion EVERYONE who was in that FO gets credit for the players we get that are good, not just the GM and not just the scouting but the director of DEVELOPMENT which does a lot more to make them good players than just selecting them in a draft does towards their ultimate career numbers.

    Just look at the difference between Ike last year and this! All it took was a simple lowering of the hands and look at the results so far!

    I am only arguing with those guys because it is UNFAIR to try and remove credit where it is due all because they want to justify their own opinion when the results should be the only barometer used.

    And the results say Omar was involved in the aquisition of our ENTIRE INFIELD! A Pretty good infield I must say. Even Murphy has showed this skeptic that he has a pretty good glove.

    And I see no reason to tear down a past GM/FO just to make the current one look better!

    I think the current guys CAN do as good if not better job than Omar but I also know they could possibly do worse!

    Time will tell and if these guys manage to get us to and win a WS then all this talk about past records and selectiong will be moot!

    So in essence I agree totally with what you said.

    But I didn’t start this conversation just tried to get it to look at things from a fair and balanced assessment instead of trying to take away credit from one to make the other look better than it.

    In 3 years we will see who was better than who and My guess is they will both look like the same thing unless this team wins a WS between now and then or is poised to…
  • Met Maniac May 9, 2011 at 12:03 pm

    You wrote: Can I ask a silly question? What does it matter?

    It matters to me. The only reason I went through this effort was to end the nonsense that Depo and JP can wipe the floors with Omar Minyaya. This whole post as I explained within was the result of arguments I HAD with other people who I wont name (because I did in my original post and had to edit them out) that made those two out to be our saviors who was going to show Mets fans what REAL talent evaluators can do! That’s a load of bunk, and I proved my case to those who compelled me to write this.
    • jessep May 9, 2011 at 12:24 pm

      Maniac: But all you’re doing is crediting 3 men with guess work.

      In 2000, JP was Special Asst to the GM

      So how come he and DePo are deemed as responsible for the A’s picks but Harry Minor, Larry Doughty, Darrell Johnson, Fred Wright, John Ricco, Bryan Lambe, Tony Bernazard, Al Goldis, Bill Livesey, Sandy Johnson and Ramon Pena don’t get credit for any of the Mets picks?

      In 2001 JP was Director of Player Personnel what about all the Player Personnel guys when Minaya was there?

      It’s all just throwing words out there to discredit 2 guys unjustly and give credit to 1 guy unjustly.

      You’re praising Omar for things other people took part in, and killing JP and Depo for things other people took part in.
      • Met Maniac May 9, 2011 at 12:30 pm

        Because the ones I argued with went back that far that’s why. When I said Depo only had TWO drafts in his life and they both sucked ass, they said he was responsibe going back to before 2000. All those names you mentioned never entered the conversation and Minaya was their superior anyway and in fact hand-picked most of them.

        You dont seem to understand why I wrote this.

        Do Depo and Ricciardi wipe the floor with Minaya in player evaluation, yes or no?

        By the way, on a human note, I hope your wife had a nice first mothers day.
        • jessep May 9, 2011 at 12:44 pm

          Maniac: I gotta be honest, I don’t see the point in either argument. I really don’t.

          It’s one of those things where whichever side you fall, you can make a good argument for either party and in the end… neither argument holds much weight in my view.

          There is just so much that goes into the draft and its impossible for us as outsiders to really know who gets credit for what. It really is. Again, the NFL draft or even the NBA Draft are so much easier to compare executives.

          As somebody who liked Omar and somebody who likes our new regime, I have to tell you that what I like is that we have 3 executives who won’t ignore the farm and won’t foolishly spend money.

          You can say whatever you’d like about Omar and the farm but the fact is, he may have made some nice picks like Ike Davis, but he had absolutely 0 depth in his farm system.

          The draft isn’t the only place in which you acquired minor leaguers, and I think you also need to recognize that the game of baseball has changed dramatically since DePo and JP were working side by side with Billy Beane.
          • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 1:06 pm

            Jessup like I said above I agree we can not meet out credit based on their title or ASSUMED contribution…

            But I do have to ask is our lack of depth in the Minors a PERCIEVED lack or a real one?

            I mean Pagan goes down and Pridie comes in without issue and even wins a game or two for us.
            Young and Dickey go down and Gee and Misch fill in quite nicely!
            We cut castillo and Emaus then Turner and Murphy play quite well!
            We have had numerous Pen guys go down but always seem to find some kid to come in and take over!

            Now if Wright, Reyes or Davis go down it might expose the problem as real. But we will not really know that until one does and whoever replaces them fails to fill in.

            I can’t really say that we do not have the depth or replacement power in the Minors until one of those MiL players who comes up doesn’t really get the job done.
            And while you can say that we have no guys in the system that are ready to become driving forces in a future team (although you do have Havens, Harvey, Nieuwenhuis and even Holt has made a comeback recently) How much of that has to do with the fact that Thole Davis, Murphy Niese, and Gee have already been promoted to the MLB squad?

            Just trying to point out that some of our lack of percieved depth in the Minors is because we promoted it to be MLB already and it will take this upcoming draft to replace those guys from the minors that now are in the majors.

            And while there is no potential all star down there you have to say there are a lot of VERY tradeable commodities that will come in handy at the trade deadline if and when we start shopping the Beltrans (and possibly Reyes) out to get more MiL depth.

            Even if we don’t trade Reyes and just let him walk we will get two top picks for him which will go a long way to fixing this team if the current guys know what they are doing.

            But in total I agree that it’s too early to judge who did what, who was better in the past and it’s pointless since they will be judged by what they do in the future not what they did previously!
            • jessep May 9, 2011 at 1:34 pm

              Metsie:

              But I do have to ask is our lack of depth in the Minors a PERCIEVED lack or a real one?
              — No it’s a real one. When a team gets rocked with injuries in 07 and 08 and somewhat in 09… you’re supposed to be able to plug holes with your farm system.

              How come injuries didn’t stop the Red Sox from having a very respectable season in 2010? Major league teams do not hit the free agent market looking to fill almost an entire bullpen. Why? Because they develop players who are good enough to pitch an inning here or there.

              The Mets don’t do this, or haven’t recently.

              Crediting Jason Pridie as your example of a farm system that has no depth is a disaster of an example. For starters, the Mets didn’t develop him and secondly, if you want your minor leagues to be filled with fill-in guys then sure… great job.

              I mean I’m sorry but you’re clearly missing the boat here. Spending over $100m in team payroll, being under .500 and having little to no significant prospects to speak of is NOT something to brag about.

              Nobody around the league is looking at Pat Misch and saying “there’s a guy I want on my team.”
              • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 2:34 pm

                Ok I agree we didn’t have the juice from 07-09. But Omar took over in 05.
                Considering that it takes about 3 years Minimum for a drafted player to go through all the levels of the MiL without being rushed that leaves 09 the only year where you can say Omar’s picks were not ready to fill in for the injuries.

                Your assuming he had a good MiL system to start with and many people felt we did not.

                As for the redSox example well Epstien had his own farm since before 2004 and maintained it so he had his own players in place by the time the injuries hit in 2010. In 2007 Omars guys were still in AA at the time. Hardly any were in AAA where you usually draw replaements from and Epstien had a AA team that was MOSTLY his guys.

                A big difference wouldn’t you say?

                Add to that fact is the problem of Omar was trying to get Pitching which we were then (and probably still are) pretty poor in.
                He was focusing on filling AROUND the Wright Reyes Beltrans and Delgados who when they got hurt the guys we had were not able to replace them.

                Not Saying Omar did a great job or a bad job but he let the situation screw him up and mostly because he never really put together the team of starters that would allow him to develop youth in a meaningful way.

                Drafting takes time. Not only to aquire the picks (which Omar wasted a few for immeditate gains) but as you so pointed out correctly the time to develop them properly.

                And if he was in a place where the media did not insist every year SHOULD BE a WS run and anything less is failure, he might have had the time to pick develop and promote a team that did not require a lot of injury replacement nor required going and buying a 20 Mil per year player to keep the team competitive.

                You could be the best drafter and developer in the world, but if the situation is such that you can’t do those jobs effectively and have to go away from rebuilding to satisfy an ADD afflicted fan base and media, your not going to succeed at all.
        • jessep May 9, 2011 at 1:03 pm

          All I am saying is when you have to use scrub big leaguers to make an argument for either side… you’re just running in circles.

          Quick, who is the best GM in baseball when it comes to drafting?

          No idea?

          Neither do I. It’s because the draft is such a tiny blip on what MLB teams do with these players.

          It’s about getting the guy and developing him and keeping him healthy. Amateur picks don’t just become big leaguers because they were drafted.

          It’s a long process and to sit here and argue (for either side) that 1 day out of the year is the best way to evaluate an executive is just silly.
          • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 1:10 pm

            AMEN! Getting them is only half the battle. TRAINING THEM, DEVELOPING them is the key to draft success not the selectiong and evaluation proccess!

            If you train and develop well then even low unexpected picks can turn out to be ALL stars and HOF candidates.
            And if you can’t develop properly then having the top overall pick will still make that pick fail!

            Changing scouts and changing how you do the statistical analysis only affects how EDUCATED the guess is.
            But a great pick with awful development will fail compared to an awful pick with GOOD development 9 times out of 10!
• Daniel May 9, 2011 at 1:20 pm

  Sorry dude but Jessup smoked you. Every point he hit on was deadly accurate. He “Wainwrighted” your “Beltran”.
  • jessep May 9, 2011 at 1:28 pm

    haha, this needs to be on a poster in my office!
    • Daniel May 9, 2011 at 1:35 pm

      I’m not trying to be a fan, but I’ve been reading much of this back and forth and both of these guys are reaching very far and doing some mystifying things to bridge logical gaps. In my opinion, you’re right almost across the board. I don’t care much to include myself in this discussion, but many bloggers, instead of stimulating discussion, write in a way that suggests they have the final word on things. This is one of those cases. I typically like Metsmerized, but this blog was a little on the silly side.
• any May 9, 2011 at 2:05 pm

  once you get past the first few rounds, the draft tends to become a big crap shoot. Especially when you don’t have a big check book for over slots in the middle rounds!

  Most of the true top/stud talent gets drafted in the first round or so. If you don’t have a lot of high (1st round, plus supplemental) that it is highly unlikely you will get a steady stream of high end prospects.

  also, my understanding is that outside of the high round (and expensive) picks, the GM has little to do with the draft (outside of setting a direction or tone). The player personnel and scouting directors (whatever the titles happen to be) are handling things by then. You think Omar really knew anything about guys getting taken in the 10th round?
  • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 2:44 pm

    Yes but how MUCH of a crapshoot is based on how much work you did in scouting and analysis and how well that work was done.

    Doctors are basically do the same thing! They ask you what is wrong, they run a few tests and then basically GUESS at what is wrong with you.

    How correct they are is based more on how much work and knowledge they aply to the diagnosis.

    How correct you are in the draft works pretty much the same way!
    No matter where it is you get to make the pick.

    The guy before you has a BETTER CHANCE than you of getting a better player than you but only if he actually takes the best guy on the list.

    And as Jessup correectly pointed out even if he does, if they do not develop him as well as the second best player on the list it really doesn’t matter where you got him.

    You make the best choice from the limted data you have and do what you can to correct what may not be good while enhancing whatever is ALREADY good.
    • t agee May 9, 2011 at 4:38 pm

      I think the teams that don’t have the big checkbook to yield do a much better job of scouting and development out of necessity. It’s just too vital a component of their future ability to let slip. Same with International free agency. The smaller market teams have to hit on the draft and IFA market or they have no prayer.

      What has really put us behind from a talent standpoint is big market teams pulling top talent out of the draft by going over slot while most of our top draft choices get spent on right now, leaving nothing in place for later on.

      The smaller teams also get to recycle their players at the end of their most productive years into new players while our free agents not only cost us the draft pick but then leave behind nothing when they head out.

      The crackdown on steroids has only made the difference in the business model that much greater.
      • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 6:40 pm

        You Think but don’t have any facts to base that on…

        You know which teams SHOULD be the best? The ones who lost the most the year before the draft!
• any May 9, 2011 at 2:07 pm

  oh, and Omar didn’t get fired because he could not find decent players to draft. It was because of ML signings, and having a fouled up system in place to put the dreftees into!
• Patrick May 9, 2011 at 2:33 pm

  Yikes. I think it is beyond reality to give credit to Minaya for David Wright. Especially when you take a swipe at Riccardi selecting David Cooper 17th in 2008. Keeping in mind that in 2001 if Minaya is getting credit he picked Heilman 18th and used a supplemental pick for David Wright. Oops.

  There is no question though that Minaya’s tenure as Met GM might lead to more major league talent than anyone would ever give him credit for, as always with the major league draft, fortune plays such an important role.

  In 2005 the Mets had the 9th pick and took Mike Pelfrey. The following year Tim Lincecum was on the board still at 10th for the Giants.

  I think the problem with Omar Minaya was that he talked about pitching, speed and defense but really never delivered anything in that playbook. Thus far his absolute best pick as a General Manager was Ike Davis. He is neither pitching nor speed. Great pick, but not part of the mantra.
  • any May 9, 2011 at 2:38 pm

    prospects bust all the time.

    to me, if a team drafts guys that are universally considered top talents, good picks, stuff like that, I got no problem with it.

    It is when they do stupid things like take Kunz in the 1st round, then that is bad.

    sometimes the smart moves bomb, and you get lucky with a strange pick. But over time, not going to lean that way.
• MrMustSeeTV May 9, 2011 at 2:47 pm

  A few points:

  (1) Minaya did not scout or sign Jose Reyes. He was scouted and signed by Eddie Toledo.

  (2) Minaya did not scout or sign David Wright. Gary LaRocque was Assistant GM and Jack Bowen was director of amateur scouting and they signed/scouted/drafted Wright.
  • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    Both completely WRONG!

    “He was scouted and signed by Eddie Toledo.”
    After Eddie got permission to sign him from Omar Minaya HIS BOSS!

    “Gary LaRocque was Assistant GM and Jack Bowen was director of amateur scouting and they signed/scouted/drafted Wright.”

    Both worked for Omar Minaya who as SENIOR ASSISTANT GM!

    By your stating these things then not even Phillips should get credit for them!
    Neither should DePo or anyone else but the guys UNDER them get credit for anyone you want to attribute to them!

    Basically if you want to get rid of the chain of command that was in place when a player was aquired then neither DePo Ricciardi, Phillips, Beane or Omar get any credit!

    Only their underlings do!

    Is that how you want it?

    I didn’t think so!
• Trump May 9, 2011 at 2:58 pm

  So you’re giving Minaya credit for finding more sh*tty major leaguers than the other two? LOL
  • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 3:11 pm

    Well finding Major Leaguers is what the draft is all about isn’t it?

    Finding HOF or ALL STARS is the luck and a product of WHERE you draft not your success.

    If you find MORE ML players than another then obviously you are meeting the intended goal of the Draft…to FIND Major League capable players regardless of how great they are once they get to the MLB!
    • jessep May 9, 2011 at 3:17 pm

      Metsie: Define major leaguer? Are you saying the goal at the draft is to draft players who are scrubs and come up to the big leagues? Almost this entire list is filled with players who are nothing to brag about. Do all of these players make it onto every big league club or did they get called up because of the state in which the franchise was in?

      It comes down to:
      Group A: Swisher, Blanton, Ethier, Hill, Marcum, Lind, Romero, Snider, Arencibia, Cecil
      versus
      Group B: Heilman, Wright, Cordero, Desmond, Pelfrey, Niese, Parnell, J. Smith, Thole, Ike

      Those are the only guys on these lists who should be bragged about and in most cases it’s a stretch. For me, I’m taking Group A over Group B

      But this idea that because Omar was the boss he gets credit… I don’t really understand your point. So Omar was the amateur drafting scouts boss as AGM and they reported to him… who did Omar report to? Then who did that person report to?

      In a way aren’t you just kinda giving credit to Jeff Wilpon? Omar Minaya didn’t scout out these guys. He gets a report on his desk.
      • t agee May 9, 2011 at 3:43 pm

        Omar had the international scouts report to him. The scouts responsible for US and PR born amateurs report to the Director of Amateur Scouting or his Asst. In 2001, when Wright was drafted, the Director of amateur scouting was Carmen Fusco, his asst was Gary Labreque. Those are the guys, along with the scouts, that ran the draft just like Russ Bove and Rudy Terasses ran it for Omar.

        I’m sure the GM has a big influence in who is picked especially in the early rounds but to claim the Assistant GM is in charge is quite a reach even for someone who took a tour of Shea Stadium.

        I mean really, did John Ricco draft Ike Davis?
        • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 6:13 pm

          And in 1998 before there was an international scouting depart Omar just did the Laundry I guess….

          He was ASSISTANT GM!

          Keep repeating this crap gets you nowhere his title says it all!
      • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 3:47 pm

        Well the point is they are giving credit to Beane and Phillips for the sole reason as they were bosses aren’t you?

        Wasn’t DePo the boss of his staff and because of that you give him credit?
        Well Omar was the boss of his staff so why does one boss get credit and another not?

        If you want to deny the chain of command credit then deny it evenly accross the board not just willy nilly to meet the needs of your argument!

        My point is clear as day. If your going to deny one BOSS credit for the staff he has compiled then you should not award credit to another boss merely because you like that guy better than Omar!

        As for Group A or B isn’t that a little simplistic? Isn’t keeping those guys and playing them as important as getting them in the first place?

        And you are leaving out about three years worth of Omar drafts in your Chinese menu because DePo and the other got those guys 15 years ago and many of Omars picks are still working their way through the MiLs

        What if Harvey is Cy Young, Nuewenhuis is All Star, Havens as well and Ike is HOF.
        Would that not make Group B much better than Group A?

        Your letting temporal mechanics get in the way of judging the BODY of work.
        When all of Omar’s picks have succeeded or failed then you might be able to come up with a FULL list!

        And making the Major Leagues and not being great is better than getting one or two great guys while the rest are all career MiLers!
        • jessep May 9, 2011 at 3:55 pm

          “What if Harvey is Cy Young, Nuewenhuis is All Star, Havens as well and Ike is HOF.”

          This pretty much summed up the bias nicely.

          At the end of the day no matter WHO is responsible for picking them based on major league talent I’ll take:

          Swisher, Blanton, Ethier, Hill, Marcum, Lind, Romero, Snider, Arencibia, Cecil over Heilman, Wright, Cordero, Desmond, Pelfrey, Niese, Parnell, J. Smith, Thole, Ike

          A
          • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 4:00 pm

            Because you don’t really want to judge Omar’s picks over the last 5 years, You would rather go with the guys who were drafted 10 years ago!

            Point is your looking at PAST PERFORMANCE from guys but refuse to acknowledge recent picks of Omar.

            If you get the lie in now it might hold, but 5 years from now Omar’s list could be killing them!

            But you don’t want to wait to say…

            Isn’t that more biased than what I said?

            QUICK let me be right before the truth comes out kind of Bias.

            As to define ML question I missed before…

            A Major Leaguer is anyone who makes it to the Major Leagues.

            If you don’t make it to the ML then obviously no matter how bad you think the ML is he is BETTER than the guys who didn’t make it aren’t they?
            • jessep May 9, 2011 at 4:12 pm

              Metsie: So anybody who makes it to the big leagues. So then I guess by that reasoning all of the Pirates, Royals, Orioles exec’s etc are better than everybody because they would call up scrubs all the time.

              If you’re trying to tell me that Freddie Bynum and Chris Basak legitimize in any way the draft capability of any of these executives than you’re just off your rocker.

              “What if Harvey is Cy Young, Nuewenhuis is All Star, Havens as well and Ike is HOF.”

              Yes what if Ike is a HOF… I mean do you realize just how absurd this argument is? You’re asking us to argue against something that will take 20 years to prove. What if Ricky Romero is a HOF? What if JP Arencibia is a HOF? I mean, just totally absurd.
              • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 6:34 pm

                Well which is the more valuable pick? a guy who never makes it out of the minor leagues or a guy who is a scrub in the Majors?

                WHICH is the bigger scrub? The guy who makes it or the guy who doesn’t?
          • Met Maniac May 9, 2011 at 4:08 pm

            For someone who keeps repeating that you dont care either way, you seem to be arguing one side a lot more agressively than anyone else on this thread.

            You do care dont you?

            You do want to make sure the myth that Depo and Ricciardi are better than Omar prevails? Right?

            So take back the fact that this was a silly argument, because if you really believed that you wouldn’t be here being one of the most vocal and ardent participants.

            By the way, wher is Jose Reyes on Omar’s list? Or Sammy Sosa? Or Juan Gonzalez?

            Who would you rather have Ike Davis or Nick Swisher?
            • jessep May 9, 2011 at 4:25 pm

              Maniac: I’m not allowed to debate? I haven’t said DePo or JP are better across the board. I’m saying its ridiculous to pick a side 100%. But if you’re asking me who has drafted BETTER big leaguers its Jp/Depo.

              But comparing hundreds of draft picks, not knowing budgeting, philosophy, roles in the draft room, scout opinions and just saying Omar did better is ridiculous.

              Oh and
              “By the way, wher is Jose Reyes on Omar’s list? Or Sammy Sosa? Or Juan Gonzalez?”

              Didn’t you just say yesterday on a previous comment ” I didn’t credit Minaya with Sosa or Gonzalez and said so at the beginning of my contribution.”

              And if I’m not mistaken, your blog was about the MLB June Draft. Reyes wasn’t drafted. If you want to debate that Omar is a better international scouting director, I don’t think anybody will argue with you.

              “Who would you rather have Ike Davis or Nick Swisher?” — So that’s what you got out of my list? You got, lets take 2 players and compare them rather than look at the list as intended.

              The point is, if you want to compare who got more scrubs to the bigs then great job. I don’t really think thats the goal of a GM on draft day do you?

              I’m fairly certain the only players on that list who were ever All-stars are Ethier, Swisher, Hill, Wright, Cordero correct?
              • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 6:28 pm

                And what you are not fairly certain is what was the position of the picker in the draft when they got those players?

                When they were picked (at what draft spot) has a GREAT bearing on who you can take. The team who picks first has a much better selection to pick from than a team at the bottom of the draft.

                I notice you didn’t bother to factor any of that into it either!
          • Vinny B May 9, 2011 at 4:33 pm

            Jeesep:

            “At the end of the day no matter WHO is responsible for picking them based on major league talent I’ll take:

            Swisher, Blanton, Ethier, Hill, Marcum, Lind, Romero, Snider, Arencibia, Cecil over Heilman, Wright, Cordero, Desmond, Pelfrey, Niese, Parnell, J. Smith, Thole, Ike”

            Wow, now that’s biased. Of course they are going to be better when your comparing TWO teams drafts against ONE team. Your comparing BOTH Depo’s AND J.P’s drafts against Omar, instead of just comparing Omar’s drafts to Depo’s, and Omar’s drafts to J.P’s. So who would you rather have:

            Swisher, Blanton, and Either – Depo’s picks.

            or Hill, Marcum, Lind, Romero, Snider, Arencibia, and Cecil – J.p’s picks.

            OR Heilman, Wright, Cordero, Desmond, Pelfrey, Niese, Parnell, J. Smith, Thole, and Ike – Omar’s picks.

            See. Now, that’s fair. And btw, both Depo and J.P had more 1st round picks than Omar.
            • jessep May 9, 2011 at 4:39 pm

              This is getting ridiculous.

              JP Ricciardi and Paul DePodesta do not share a brain. they are 2 individuals who work for the Mets now. Omar Minaya is 1 individual who does not.

              So if combined they have drafted a better collection of big leaguers then wouldn’t that mean the Mets would be in better shape come draft time?

              I’m done with this debate. It’s totally absurd because nobody can prove what 1 guy did or didn’t do and we’re giving credit to some exec’s for some things (ie Kevin fricken Mulvey) but then not for another (ie Andre Ethier!)

              I get it, you guys don’t like JP or DePo. I liked Omar, I like JP, I like DePo. I wish them well, and I’m hoping for the best… not digging to find the worst.
              • Vinny B May 9, 2011 at 4:48 pm

                No you are being ridiculous,

                J.P and Depo combined drafted for TWO teams, and Omar only drafted for one. So when you combine them, they have DOUBLE the picks Omar had – that’s why when you combine them they have better picks.

                You get that right?
              • Met Maniac May 9, 2011 at 4:54 pm

                OMG! WOW! LMFAO!

                So now rather than a 3 way battle as I did, you want to go two against one?

                Holy guacamole!

                It turns out that the voice of reason is the most biased of all!!!

                You’re right, this is a silly argument. It became silly when you joined in!

                WOW!

                SMH!
              • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 6:43 pm

                Dude we were in complete agreement about it being a TEAM SPORT as far as the FO is concerned but then something came over you and tried to make DePo and JP into something better!

                I don’t know what to expect from them in the next draft.
                But I do know this it will take longer than 3 years to know if it was good which is a benefit many are not giving Omar for his recent drafts (you did that when I mentioned Harvey Holt, Havens and Neuenhuis….)
              • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 6:46 pm

                You know Vinny I had not even considered that but your exactly right…

                Just another case of stacking the deck in one sides favor. A very popular sport around these parts it seems!
• jessep May 9, 2011 at 2:26 pm

  Swisher, Blanton, Ethier, Hill, Marcum, Lind, Romero, Snider, Arencibia, Cecil
  versus
  Heilman, Wright, Cordero, Desmond, Pelfrey, Niese, Parnell, J. Smith, Duda, Ike

  If it’s me I’m taking the top group over the bottom group just in terms of talent in the big leagues to date.

  So while I’m not pro-comparing drafts… to me it comes down to those guys and in that case… Jp/DePo win.
• Sach May 9, 2011 at 4:35 pm

  I agree with Jessup. In reality, a MLB GM has just a small part in the Rule 4 draft.The Rule 4 draft is much more the ballgame of the Director of Amateur Scouting, area scouting supervisors, area scouts and national crosscheckers. I don’t think you can credit or discredit any MLB GM for a particular draft.
  • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 6:38 pm

    The director does not make the decision who to draft he merely makes reccomendations!

    The GM and Asst GMs are the ones who decide to go with the recomendation or not!
    the GM has the FINAL say.

    Jessup was right before he decided to help Tag out…

    It is a TEAM effort and EVERYONE on the team gets credit! The GM himself gets credit for ASSEMBLING the team!
• Met Maniac May 9, 2011 at 4:59 pm

  Thanks Vinny B. I didnt even realize what he was trying to do until you pointed it out. Mr Unbiased who thought this was silly and didnt really care because it really didn’t matter tried to overturn the results in the most BIASED and UNOBJECTIVE way.

  Hell they are a team now, I see, so let me bring all of Omar’s guys in and look at their history and bring it all together because they were a team! Mark Teixeira – check, Michael Young – check, Orlando Cabrera – check, Vladimir Guerrero – check. They all count now because the guys who scouted them worked with Omar and were a team at one time.
  • t agee May 9, 2011 at 5:22 pm

    I think there is plenty to be concerned about with DePo in charge of the draft. The 2002 “moneyball” draft was one of the best in recent memory and with SEVEN first or supplemental round selections could have set Oakland up for a solid decade. That didn’t happen. The A’s only got 2 players and only one All Star appearance out of SEVEN high draft choices.

    The LA Dodger drafts (2004-2005) produced players that have so far combined to accumulate 0.2 WAR.

    Clearly this is a subject worth examining and it happens to be in an area of our greatest weakness over a long and protracted period.

    Take away one player (Wright) and one prospect traded before reaching the Majors (Kazmir) and we have had ZERO players we drafted and developed even considered for an All Star team.

    When you compete in a Division with a team like the Atlanta Braves that trot out numerous All Star worthy homegrown prospects it becomes a troubling issue.

    Hanson, Beachy and Minor with Teheran, Delgado and Vizcaino in reserve and Jurgens acquired by the farm is one hell of a potential starting rotation. Venters and Kimbrel for the 8th and 9th inning. McCann, Freeman, Heyward. Prado an IFA. These guys are damn good at scouting and developing I’ll tell you that.

    Thank God they made a few mistakes along the way or we would really be sunk. Escobar, the Tex trade cost them Andrus, Feliz, Martin and Salty and they foolishly blew #1 picks on one year of Wagner and Glavine so it could have been a lot worse. In fact they could have selected Ike if Glavine had broken down. Then where would we be.

    If we don’t get our scouting and development in order and start drafting the best talent possible we’ll be looking up at all of them. Atlanta, Philly, Florida AND Washington.
    • Met Maniac May 9, 2011 at 6:45 pm

      Hi agee, I wanted you to know that my 2002 section was three times longer and I cover their failures extensively!

      That was as you said one of the best drafts in recent memory. They had the opportunity of a lifetime with a boatload of picks in first two rounds. They brag about Swisher, Teahen and Blanton, when they left the following on the table:

      Cole Hamels
      Jon Lester
      Jonathan Broxton
      Matt Cain
      Joey Votto
      Scott Kazmir
      Brian McCann

      How could you have 10 of the first 55 picks and pass up on all of that and come away with the following in the same order they were drafted:

      1. Russ Adams
      2. Nick Swisher
      3. Joe Blanton
      4. John McCurdy
      5. Ben Fritz (cool name)
      6. Jeremy Brown
      7. Ben Obenchain
      8. Mark Teahen
      9. Dave Bush
      10. Steve Stanley

      What a haul! Someone should write a book about that draft, oh wait they did!

      The other players I listed were all players they could of had but they passed on. None were selected before they went.
      • t agee May 9, 2011 at 9:02 pm

        Hi Maniac. Your absolutely right. The 2002 draft was ideal to have so many accumulated picks. It is inexcusable to come up so short especially for a team with no other alternatives for player procurement.

        By the way you left off a couple of names from that draft too. Josh Johnson, Curtis Granderson, Russell Martin, Howie Kendrick. Lots of good players.

        That’s the difference in Scouting Directors and possibly attitudes about going over slot. Granderson went in the 3rd, Josh Johnson in the 4th, Capps in the 7th, Martin in the 9th, Kendrick in the 10th Zumaya in the 11th. This is where your scouting Director can REALLY make his bones and set your team up for a solid decade.

        The A’s entire premise in this draft was wrong. I’m sure money had something to do with it but that doesn’t explain the degree to which they blew their future, and to walk around publicizing that fact is really comical. Imagine getting one all star appearance out of 7 first round picks.

        I don’t have any illusions that we would have done any better but at least it would have flown under the radar with Met Fans (as it always does)

        The results of our draft were laughable as well. We got two players, Kazmir which we turned into Zambranno and Lindstrom who we turned into Vargas and then cashed in for 29 innings of JJ Putz. In other words we got 180 IP of 5.00+ ERA and 29 IP of 5.51 ERA and we didn’t even have a chance to draft anyone taken after Kazmir at #15 until #117. Guess why? We gave up our #2 and #3 picks for David Weathers and Roger Cedeno.

        That’s right. Instead of having a chance to draft Joey Votto, Jon Lester, Brian McCann, Curtis Granderson, Josh Johnson we turned our 2nd and 3rd round draft choice into two salary dumps.

        At the time you know how Met Fans were justifying giving up those two draft choices? With the same old tired refrain used to justify all the bad free agent deals we’ve engaged in over the last two decades.

        “Well who else were we going to get to play RF and close?” As if that’s any justification for passing on Votto, McCann, Lester or Josh Johnson.

        And you wonder why we always have 5 roster spots short of a full team.

        But your right. The Blue Jays and A’s really hosed themselves with whatever constraints they put on themselves draft philosophy wise.

        Appreciate the effort on the article and the spotlight it brought on this issue. I look forward to more of them from you Maniac.
        • t agee May 9, 2011 at 9:58 pm

          And Maniac you know what really kills me. WE should have gotten the two #1 picks for “losing” Izzy. WE could have developed him as a closer or even better kept him.
    • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 7:45 pm

      This should have very little to do with concern about the current regieme and what they did in 2002 should not apply to them anymore.

      They are not FORCED to find talent in places the money limited them to in Moneyball, The team NEEDS are very different from 2002 as well.

      Even the statistical analysis they used in 2002 has grown and been accentuated and the philosophy of that time is also very different!

      I certainly hope that in 9 years these guys at least learned a few things from their mistakes and won’t just pick based on ego of past performance!

      I will judge them by what they do here not Oakland and their success will be based on what the Mets do under their administration.

      Omar’s book won’t be closed until all the players he brought here are gone or failed.

      I would suggest we stop trying to insist things are better when there is no proof that this team is ANY different than last year!
      And anyone who suggests things are worse are just as wrong!

      We don’t know and we will see.

      But will say this…

      I will judge them by the SAME STANDARDS I judge anyone who works for this team!
      I won’t have one scale for one and another for the other.

      We would have few of these dumb arguments here if we all were even MILDLY attemptiong to be fair and unbiased but it’s a rarity in these parts and that is sad!

      Everyone has an agenda and everyone tries to manipulate facts to fit their agenda.

      Well you all think Moneyball was good read…

      Try reading Mike Wheeler!

      http://www.amazon.com/Lies-Damn-Statistics-Manipulation-Opinion/dp/0440351219
      • XtreemIcon May 9, 2011 at 8:07 pm

        Moneyball has nothing to do with statistics or numbers.
        • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 9:53 am

          X – The comparison was “THEY ARE BOTH GOOD READS”

          One is about doing good statistical analysis and finding players in places others were not looking.

          The second is about how statistical analysis can be manipulated and used to make untrue statements.

          If both are related in any way shape or form it is in the fact that reading the second book might help to prevent you from making a statistical analysis that puts bias into the result leading you to the wrong conclusion.
• jessep May 9, 2011 at 4:04 pm

  Metsie: From Baseball prospectus

  “New York Mets
  Scouting Director: Rudy Terrasas (Drafts Run: 2006)

  Best Player Produced: Joe Smith (3rd round)

  Best Prospect in Minors: Kevin Mulvey (2nd round)

  Notable Steals: None yet identified.

  Five-Round Strategy: 4 total picks. 75% college, 25% junior college.

  Strategy in a Nutshell: Omar Minaya has a background in international scouting, and in selecting Terrasas as his scouting director, he hired a colleague with a background in Latin America. As a result, Terrasas has already been aggressive in the Dominican Republic, but his tendencies running a draft remain to be seen. His first four picks last season were all pitchers, and given Joe Smith’s success this season, Terrasas already has one bullet point on his resume. Finding players like Smith will be essential, as Omar Minaya has little reservations about forfeiting first-round picks for free agents.
  2007 Draft Crystal Ball: The Mets don’t pick until the supplemental first round this June, choosing 42nd and 47th. If the pitching trend continues, pitchers Barry Enright, Tony Watson, and Aaron Poreda are all good college names that could be on the board at that point. However, seriously associating names with the 42nd pick is a fool’s game.”

  How come they are talking about Terrasas running the draft and not Minaya? That’s so weird?
  • Met Maniac May 9, 2011 at 4:10 pm

    Where is the link? I need to see it’s a Terrassas article or an article on the Mets draft overall.
    • jessep May 9, 2011 at 4:30 pm

      here are some

      http://www.nj.com/mets/index.ssf/2010/11/mets_oust_rudy_terrasas_as_dir.html
      http://www.metstoday.com/5874/10-11-offseason/rudy-terrasas-draft-review/

      The Major League Scouting Director is a key member of each of the 30 MLB teams front office staff. Typical duties of a Scouting Director includes coordinating all scouting for the First Year Player Draft every June, international scouting and MLB advanced scouting for the major league club. In many cases, the team scouting director is the sole decision maker over the team’s first several draft picks on draft day.
      • Met Maniac May 9, 2011 at 5:03 pm

        What the heck are those links from Mickey Mouse Mets blogs??? I’m surprised you dint link me to one of your own MMO posts.

        I wanted the BP link where you pasted the previous info that I questioned. Maybe this is a case for Mets Police.
        • Mr North Jersey May 9, 2011 at 7:04 pm

          Doesn’t take much to copy and paste a section of what Jessep copied from baseball prospectus and doing a Google search to find where it came from.

          Nevertheless here is the link you was asking for.
          http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6294
          • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 7:34 pm

            Thanks MNJ…

            It also doesn’t take much to spin info such as because they list the Director of Scouting in an article it is ASSUMED he ran the draft, made all decisions made in it and no one above his pay scale had a say…

            Hell I’m surprised someone hasn’t tried to also compare our 4 picks that year against the 23 the Phillies had too!

            Even if they were only successful on 25% of thier picks and we were 100% right they would still have gotten more players than we did if you leave out those little inconsistencies needed to compare…
            • Mr North Jersey May 9, 2011 at 7:37 pm

              Your welcome.
            • t agee May 9, 2011 at 8:16 pm

              They weren’t comparing our 4 picks against the Phillies 23 in 2007. They were comparing the tendencies of Scouting Directors over the course of their tenure.

              The Phillies Director of Amateur Scouting was being looked at from 2002-2006. The Mets Director of Scouting from just 2006 since that was the only year he held the position.
              • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 9:42 am

                Another feeble attempt to change the subject based on a sarcastic statement I made as a joke to underpin the point that you guys are trying to stack the deck.

                How many picks did DePo and JP have to get their list and how many did Omar have to get his?
              • t agee May 10, 2011 at 9:30 pm

                Omar wasn’t on the list. He was never the Director of Amateur Scouting. The article is only about the guys who run their teams drafts and their tendencies in those drafts during their current tenure.

                I’m sure that baseball America has article on Asst GM’s, Sr. Asst GM’s and Directors of international Scouting and their job functions.
              • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 10:50 pm

                Yeah Dummy I posted it twice…is a third the charm?
      • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 6:16 pm

        Yep Articles about Terasaa so the article is biased toward what he might have been involved in!
        • t agee May 10, 2011 at 9:31 pm

          No the article was about all 5 of the NL East Directors of Amateur Scouting and their results in the drafts they’ve run for their respective teams.
  • Metsie May 9, 2011 at 6:24 pm

    Here is the problem you have Jessup and it’s a bad one….

    Same problem you guys had judging BEANE a Success!

    You use one standard bearer for the guy you don’t want to prop up and another for the guy you do!

    If what you and Tag orignially said about Wright belonging to Phillips then NO PLAYER EVER PICKED belongs to DePo or Ricciardi do they since they were not ever a GM when those guys from group A got picked!

    And if you want to give them credit for their work in Oakland then you are basically using the chain of command to credit them where you give Omar none of the same manners.

    So Pick one standard to use either the guys in charge get the credit, the underlings or ONLY the GM.

    PICK ONE DAMN STANDARD and we will then see how much credit DePo and them get compared to Omar!

    Bottom line is WHO HIRED TERASSAS????????

    OMAR!

    Pick one credit system and stop trying to weight both on copmpletely different type and mis calibrated scales then you might prove your point!

    If Phillips is the only one to get credit for Wright as Tag has tried to say in the past then DePo and Omar and the rest get NO CREDIT for any player drafted while they were NOT GM!

    And if the GM gets credit for any of it then his second in command gets some too as does everyone in that group that helped to make that decision!

    But you guys like to mix and match your standards and it really is a very poor way to try and prove a point because it is very easily exposed as has been done here!
    • t agee May 9, 2011 at 8:23 pm

      My point has never been that the draft’s success should be credited only to the GM. My point is it goes on his ledger because he’s the man in charge. He typically hires the Scouting director.

      The Scouting Director, and really the scouts themselves are really the one’s whose evaluation is the most critical. Credibility, reputation and forcefulness combined with good judgement and consensus with regional and national cross checkers is where drafts are won and lost.

      The GM basically takes the info handed to him and comes to a decision along with the scouts and scouting directors but it is the Scouting Directors job to run the drafts for the GM much in the same way that the Minor League field cooridnator runs the Minors for him.
      • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 9:49 am

        Dude your point has always been to knock Wright and Reyes off the Omar list because those two are KNOWN all Stars and possible HOFers who when included makes Omar’s list VERY VERY IMPRESSIVE which knaws at you!

        You also don’t seem willing to wait to see how the rest of his drafted player play out which there can be no question even using your GM ONLY standard are the work of Omar!

        IF Havens, Holt, Harvey, Nuenwhuis manage to make it to the MLB and play well then it wouldn’t even matter if Omar was involved in Wright and Reyes because the list would be so long their good selection wouldn’t even be needed!
        • t agee May 10, 2011 at 9:36 pm

          I’ve said a million times the book on Omar will be open for at least a decade. I didn’t write this article trying to compare incomplete draft data.

          I’ve already conceded Reyes to Omar, tenuous as the connection is, because he did head the International scouting Dept but your claim, backed by taking a tour, stating difinitively that “Omar is responsible for Wright”, but none of the thirteen bungled 1st 2nd and 3rd round draft choices of the Phillips era is BS.
• Vinny B May 9, 2011 at 8:26 pm

  Depo – 26 1st round picks.

  Omar – 13 1st round picks.

  Depo’s picks: Swisher, Blanton, and Either.

  Omar’s picks: Ike, Wright, Cordero, Desmond, Pelfrey, Niese, Parnell, J. Smith, Thole, and Heilman.

  So Depo had DOUBLE the amount of 1st round picks that Omar had, and Omar did a MUCH better job drafting than Depo – It’s not even close – Oh And that reminds me of Craig Lerner’s post not too ago, about how clueless the previous FO was, and how we are in “good hands” now that we have Depo:

  http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/04/unlike-past-regime-this-one-actually-has-a-clue.html

  LOL!
  • Met Maniac May 9, 2011 at 8:51 pm

    LMAO! Message to Craig – You never count you’re money, when you’re sittin’ at the table. There’ll be time enough for countin’ when the dealin’s done.
  • t agee May 9, 2011 at 11:26 pm

    Omar has less draft picks because he chose to spend them on RIGHT NOW. He gets credited in a different pocket for what those free agents did for the team RIGHT NOW but he can’t double dip and then cry that he didn’t have as many picks and either can his followers.

    If you think Omar did a good job with the draft then you can’t be happy he literally gave away a #1 pick for a 40 year old LFer and traded away two #1 picks for a year of a designated hitter. He also gave away a # 1 for Wagner who was never available when it really deep down mattered and only was around at all for half his contract. He also gave up a #2 pick for a year and a half of Pedro and another #1 pick for yet another closer and the laugh of it all is he didn’t give up anything for the rag tag pitching rotation in front of the closer.

    Talk about putting the cart in front of the horse.
    • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 9:56 am

      Another change of subject…I will try and bring you back to topic…

      OMAR with LESS PICKS got MORE PLAYERS!

      Omar had a HIGHER SUCCESS RATE!
      • t agee May 10, 2011 at 11:17 am

        And I’ll bring you back to reality.

        Omar has provided quite a few guys taken between the 5th and 13th round that can do a few things but collectively, are not guys you build around, there are guys that stand in for you for a few years. They don’t carry you for a month at a time like Posey/McCann, Utley/Pedroia, Kimbrel/Bard or Heyward/Stanton. Not all major leaguers are equal. The talent disparity between the first couple of rounds and the rest of the draft is enourmous.

        Thole, Murphy, Parnell, Duda have all done some good things but also some bad things up here. One step forward, one step back. The bad plays are more than just growing pain type problems, their lack of being properly developed problems and there also problems of possesing 5th to 13th round talent.

        Not to say that can’t be overcome. It can, but there are very few teams that right now, today, would have either Murphy or Thole starting and we have both. Very few teams that would have had Parnell break camp in 2009, Mejia in 2010 or Duda in 2011. Very few teams that would have to give up an early round pick for a free agent to man LF 3 times in the last ten years.

        It is an overall lack of talent that has gotten the semi-talent to the Majors. We needed more from the draft than that.

        Davis and Harvey seem like they could very well be the players to build around. Personally I think Niese in the 5th round and especially Gee in the 21st were among Omar’s best picks. Gee can be a fine backend starter and that is huge pulling it from the 21st round but we are a few years away from getting the whole picture and he did have numerous early round (where the best talent comes from) busts and gave away numerous other chances to draft early round talent and wasn’t able to mitigate that damage by going over slot to up the talent level of our draft.

        Holt, Matz, Cohoon, Rustich, could all wind up being good serviceable bullpen arms but as soon as they start showing some promise, there already in their 5th year of pro ball and are subject to poachers in the rule 5 draft. You cannot protect so much mediocre talent because we only have 40 roster spots so even some of our mediocre talent could very well pay off for someone else.

        I expect that the majority of Omar’s legacy will ride on the backs of the truly talented players he signed from Latin America like Familia, Mejia, Urbina, Rodriguez and hitters like Rodriguez, Flores, Puello but many of his IFA’s have been bitten by the less talented bug as they got older. Pena, Marte, Fern.

        Omar’s plan was to get the bulk of his talent from Latin America, fill the bench and specific short term needs with the Thole’s, Duda’s and Murphy’s, get a few polished college pitchers out of the draft but by en large get the heavy lifting from the DR and Venezuela.

        The draft wasn’t Omar’s primary source of player procurement so to compare it to someone else’s primary source is a little unfair but a reasonable question would be which source should be primary and which one should be secondary? 18-21 year old’s are easier to project than 16 year old’s. The better skills may be in Latin America but it may take an extra year or two to refine them. Some Latin American players have their break out seasons at a very late age. Jose Bautista and Nelson Cruz come to mind. How long can you wait on guys? Sooner or later they’ll be in our system for 5 years and all we’re doing is developing guys for other teams like Houston did with Melvin Mora. Now if your losing guys like Mora because your nailing top shelf talent like Jimenez, Cabrerra, Guererro or CarGO that’s one thing but that hasn’t been the case.

        You can keep your head firmly planted in the sand for as long as you’ld like but getting only two potential future All Stars out of six years of drafts just isn’t getting it done.

        When you look at teams that have consistently made the post season and compare Lincecum/Cain/Sanchez/Bumgarner/Posey/Belt or McCann/Freeman/Hanson/Beachy/Minor/ Kimbrel/Venters/Heyward or Hamels/Howard/Rollins/Utley/and 3 aces acquired because of their farm to what we’ve pulled out you really can’t say it’s very successful at all.

        The answer for us is more top shelf high end talent. The type of talent that is in the first and second round. The type you might have to pay a little extra for and if it’s a choice between quantity and quality in the IFA market I’d go heavily on quality.

        Having a great young SS and 3B just isn’t enough. Eventually you have to follow that up with some other great young players at other positions and build a quality rotation, a bench and a bullpen. To date the only player Omar has drafted that has come up here and experienced a successful first go around is Ike. That’s not success. Not when you look at what other teams in our league and Division have done.

        But keep your head in the sand, you like it there.
        • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 12:17 pm

          And now that we are back in reality I’ll slap you with it…

          “Omar has provided quite a few guys taken between the 5th and 13th round that can do a few things but collectively, are not guys you build around”

          Excuse me but didn’t we recently we had a conversation about a BOOMING success of a guy who got them didn’t keep them or build around them at all. Just tried to stay ahead and pick more replacements when needed from the bottom of the feed troth!
          • t agee May 10, 2011 at 9:39 pm

            This post makes even less sense than usual.
    • Vinny B May 10, 2011 at 2:04 pm

      Now your spinning.

      This about Omar’s DRAFTS VS Depo, not about Omar free agent sigings, or about the Braves drafts ok?

      Depo had DOUBLE the amount of 1st round picks that Omar had, and Omar drafted more major leaguers AND more talented major leaguers.

      Omar did a better job drafting than Depo, that’s my point.
      • t agee May 10, 2011 at 9:41 pm

        I think that was pretty obvious before this exercise began. Perhaps the article should have been ONLY on DePo’s draft highlighting the concern, strategy and results. I think they speak for themselves but it would be nice if Depo knew we were aware.
  • t agee May 9, 2011 at 11:30 pm

    I love how people insist that it was Omar that drafted Wright in order to puff up their case. One All Star appearance by one player, a couple of middling starters and a couple of middling relievers and Phillips drafted Wright in case anyone has any questions
    • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 9:56 am

      And we love how you try to knock Reyes and Wright off to puff up yours!

      Funny how two players need to go before your argument works!
• AcePPO May 9, 2011 at 10:59 pm

  In browsing through the posts, I doubt you’ll listen to me, but… I agree that Omar is often unfairly trashed and the Mets minor league system is maligned, but you’ve stacked the deck here waaaaay too far in his favor. At the very least, he and Ricciardi should be tied; frankly, I think J.P. is the “winner” here. Riccardi drafted two legit honest-to-goodness aces in Marcum and Romero. Omar drafted none. Hell, even DePodesta drafted David Price (though you give him no credit yet try to credit Omar for… Pedro Beato?) But on my scorecard, Ricciardi wins ’03 and ’05 going away.

  I’ll put it this way: I would trade Pelfrey, Niese, Thole, Parnell, and Cordero in a HEARTBEAT for Marcum and Romero, and so would anybody else. Quality over quantity.

  Good post, though. Just a blue-and-orange Kool-Aid drinkin’ final analysis.
  • AcePPO May 9, 2011 at 11:01 pm

    (That should read the Mets minor league system is UNFAIRLY maligned.)
    • Met Maniac May 9, 2011 at 11:19 pm

      That’s how us Met Maniacs roll. Of course I would do that trade too, but I disagree on Ricciardi totally. Thanks for the comment though.
      • Aceppo May 9, 2011 at 11:26 pm

        Wait… you would do that trade but you disagree on Ricciardi. If we’re valuing these guys based on the quality of the players you drafted (which is what this post is entirely about) then your comment represents a logical fallacy. “Ricciardi’s players are better than Omar’s players, but I still think Omar was better than Ricciardi.”) HOW?!

        I really don’t understand your thinking. I really don’t. If the Mets rotation was Marcum, Romero, Dickey, Capuano, and Gee, with Paulino the full time catcher and the bullpen… exactly the same as it is now as Parnell couldn’t even stick with the club so far this year, this Mets team would be a contender.
        • Met Maniac May 9, 2011 at 11:33 pm

          Well youre forgetting Reyes, Wright, Cordero, Ike, etc, Omar has drafted far more players than Marcum and Romero.
          • AcePPO May 9, 2011 at 11:39 pm

            But I’m talking about those two year where you gave the “win” to Omar instead of Riccardi. Reyes and Wright weren’t in those years (if you want to give Omar credit for them, but I’m not having that argument, and Reyes isn’t even a part of the time frame YOU selected to work with) and neither was Ike. Marcum was drafted in the same year you gave Omar the “win” for drafting Cordero… and the two aren’t even COMPARABLE.

            I’m just saying Ricciardi should NO QUESTION have “won” those two years because he walked away from the draft table with two aces up his sleeve. The Ace trumps all, you know.
            • t agee May 9, 2011 at 11:49 pm

              Not in Omar sychophant world. Omar trumps everything. Lima, Livan, Redding, Escobar, Perez. Their all aces too.
              • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 10:04 am

                AH I was wondering when the “YOUR CRAZY WE ARE RIGHT” defense was going to rear it’s ugly head…

                You guys need a good course on debating skills!
                Cause it seems now when the facts bash your argument and the change of subject tactic doesn’t work it always ends with the YOUR CRAZY act…
            • Vinny B May 9, 2011 at 11:51 pm

              The Year Marcum was picked, I would have called it a tie between J.P and Depo…

              However, I think Maniac was right by giving Omar the win in 05. Rickey Romero is NOT an ACE like you say he is. 29-22 4.00 ERA 1.38 WHIP for his career….that’s an ACE? I don’t think so. The Mets that year drafted Pelfrey (who by the way won more games than Romero last year) Niese, Thole, AND Parnell – Omar did a better job, your overrating Romero a lot.
              • AcePPO May 9, 2011 at 11:52 pm

                Sure. Hey, ask around baseball and see if anyone wants that collection of Mets misfits over Romero, let me know what they say.
              • AcePPO May 9, 2011 at 11:55 pm

                And even if you want to call Romero a very good #2… Pelfrey and Niese are, what, a 3 and a 4, at best? Thole is, what, a no-power back-up catcher? Parnell is a middle reliever who throws 100mph in a straight line?

                Romero is still better than those four guys, even if you just want to make him a 2.
              • t agee May 9, 2011 at 11:55 pm

                Niese, Thole and Parnell might not even make a 25 man roster on most teams but if you think Pelfrey would have done as well as Romero in the AL East I’ve got news for you.
              • AcePPO May 9, 2011 at 11:56 pm

                @Agee – Oh man, Pelf in the AL East. That is a frightening thought.
              • kevin May 9, 2011 at 11:58 pm

                AcePPO – I get where youre coming from but are you seriously suggesting that you would trade Jon Niese, Mike Pefrey, Josh Thole and Bobby Parnell right now for Rickey Romero? Come on, be serious.
              • AcePPO May 9, 2011 at 11:58 pm

                And if you want to say that year was a tie between DePo and JP, that’s fair; Ethier looks completely legit. But I’m going to value Marcum slightly higher than Ethier so I’ll give it to JP.

                But Chad Cordero? C’mon…
              • AcePPO May 10, 2011 at 12:00 am

                @Kevin – Not necessarily. But I’m saying Romero is light years better, talent-wise, than any of those guys. TAgee is right: Niese, Parnell, and Thole might not even be on most teams 25 man roster. The perception of their value gets bumped up because their in the majors, but some might argue that Thole and Parnell, especially, have no business being in the majors.

                I’m saying quality over quantity. I’d rather have the one very good to great player over the four serviceable to mediocre to flat-out bleah journeymen.
              • t agee May 10, 2011 at 12:01 am

                Right AcePro. Talking Buffalo then and he’d just be one more in a long line of Omar busts never to be brought up again by his followers.
              • Vinny B May 10, 2011 at 12:06 am

                Misfits?

                Pelf won more games than Romero last year, and Niese is a very promising pitcher, and Parnell and Thole could be decent players.

                It’s close, and I said it in the shotbox earlier that J.P and OMar’s drafts were close, but I’d give the win to Omar for that year, and overall – I think Wright and Davis are going to turn out to be better players than all the guys on Toronto, and as you said “quality over quantity” so I’ll give the win to Omar.
              • XtreemIcon May 10, 2011 at 12:07 am

                Ricky Romero makes Mike Pelfrey look like……well…….Mike Pelfrey. No comparison at all. You think 23-23 with a 4.35 ERA and a 1.435 WHIP is better? Because that’s Pelfrey’s first two years. Romero was 27-18 with a 3.99 ERA in his first two years in the toughest division in baseball.
              • AcePPO May 10, 2011 at 12:11 am

                @Vinny – I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT WRIGHT AND DAVIS; I’M TALKING ABOUT YEARS WHERE THEY WERE NOT DRAFTED!

                I hate to use the all-caps, but I’ve only said that about four times. “Wins” were determined on a year-by-year basis and I’d give Omar the win for drafting Ike and Wright, too… even though, again, he had nothing to do with Wright (although he was the man in charge for Davis and gets all the credit for that.)

                Pelfrey vs. Romero – Every baseball statistician agrees, wins are just about the worst way to value a pitcher’s worth. But okay. If you want Pelfrey over Romero, that’s fine. You can be the one guy in all of existence who thinks that way.

                “Niese is a very promising pitcher, and Parnell and Thole could be decent players.” You used the words “promising” and “could be decent”. That does not translate into actual, quantifiable results.

                Again, Romero, RIGHT NOW, is better than those four guys.
              • AcePPO May 10, 2011 at 12:13 am

                And, Vinny, I LIKE Niese. I think he has promise too and I’m excited to watch his career develop. I LOVE guys who throw a big curve. I even liked Shawn Estes! But if you told me I could have Romero and I would have to lose those 4 guys to do it? I’d have to think long and hard about it, and Niese is the one guy I’d be sorry to see go.
              • Vinny B May 10, 2011 at 12:18 am

                When did I say I wanted Pelfrey over Romero? I don’t think I said that, I said he won more games than Romero, and he did.

                I said I’d rather have Pelf, Niese, Thole AND Parnell over Romero – It’s close but I’d rather take those guys.

                And I don’t give a damn what “baseball statisticians” think – screw them.
              • Vinny B May 10, 2011 at 12:23 am

                I just think your overrating Romero, he’s seems to me like a number 3 guy with upside. he has a career 4.00 ERA and a 1.38 WHIP, i’m not giving up Pelfrey, Niese, Parnell, and Thole for that.
              • XtreemIcon May 10, 2011 at 12:24 am

                The bottom line is that Romero would be the best pitcher on the Mets right now, and aside from Santana the best pitcher on the Mets since Gooden and Cone.
              • AcePPO May 10, 2011 at 12:27 am

                @Xtreemicon – Good point. Romero is so much better than anything the Mets have right now it’s not even funny.

                As I said, I would miss Niese, but not Pelfrey. And to me (as I said below) Thole and Parnell are, frankly, easily replaceable.

                Give me Romero.
              • XtreemIcon May 10, 2011 at 12:32 am

                Romero’s first two seasons were better than Pelfrey’s. He’s pitching far better than Pelfrey right now. Romero still has a ton of untapped potential and Pelfrey is a #3 at best. This isn’t even a discussion.
              • Vinny B May 10, 2011 at 12:44 am

                Your right, it shouldn’t be a disscusion. Romero is better than Pelfrey….and that’s why nobody is disscusing that – I’m not saying Pelf if better than Romero, what I’m saying is that Pelf, Niese, Thole, AND Parnell is better than Romero, it’s close, but I think those 4 combined are better.
              • Aceppo May 10, 2011 at 12:47 am

                @Vinny – I’m going to find the point where we can meet: You HOPE those four will end up being better than just Romero. I do as well, very much so.

                I just do not think that is going to happen.

                Oh, well. LGM.
              • Vinny B May 10, 2011 at 11:36 am

                Nope, I’m not hoping they are better, they are better, and I got a sabermetric stat to back it up. lol.

                Mike Pelfrey last year: 2.9 WAR – career 8 WAR.

                Bobby Parnell last year: 0.7 WAR – career 1 WAR.

                Jon Niese last year: 1.9 WAR – career 2.8 WAR

                Josh Thole last year: 1.4 WAR – career 1.5 WAR

                Ricky Romero last year: 4 WAR – career 7.3 WAR

                Omar’s picks last year had a 6.9 WAR, while, J.P’s pick had a 4 WAR. and in total, Omar picks had a 13.3 WAR, and J.P’s had 7.3….

                So there’s that, I didn’t even have go through all that to prove it anyway (I actually hate WAR btw, it’s an awful stat lol). Mike Pelfrey won 15 games last year and had a lower ERA than Romero, Jon NIese pitched well last year, Thole also played well at the end of the year too. And if you were to trade Pelf and Niese for Romero, we would be short a SP. Our roatation would be Romero, Dickey, Capuano, Gee… and who else? Misch?

                Omar had a better draft that year, it doesn’t matter what way you want to evaulate them – WAR shows you Omar’s was better, traditional stats also show that Omar’s was better too, you said traditional stats weren’t a good to evaluate players, so that’s why I used WAR.
              • Aceppo May 10, 2011 at 12:14 pm

                @Vinny – You’re ridiculous.

                You realize if you put Romero on this roster and excise those other four players, you would need to replace those three roster spots with other players. And Romero alone, as you point out, has a higher WAR last year than the other four individually. So my point, and an easy one to understand, is that Romero has more value and is less easily replaceable than those other four.

                He’s also, again, more talented than those four.

                Thole and Parnell are nothing special and easily replaceable. Niese has potential. Now Pelf has a higher WAR than the others. And if that means you’d rather have Pelf than Romero, again, you can be the one guy in existence who feels that way.

                It’s amazing how you’ve ignored Marcum in this conversation, BTW…
              • t agee May 10, 2011 at 2:07 pm

                Put Pelfrey in Toronto’s rotation and he’ll be serving up missels in Vegas that will cause casino’s to start handing out hard hats.
            • Vinny B May 10, 2011 at 1:21 pm

              Marcum? He wasn’t drafted that year, so that’s why I didn’t bring him up.

              And how many times did I say Romero is better than Pelfrey?

              My point is I’d rather have Niese, Pelf, Thole, and Parnell(those FOUR players) over Romero (just ONE guy). Romero isn’t THAT good that I’d would trade those four to get him.

              Get it now? Those four guys COMBINED are better than just Romero….it’s close, but I think Omar had the better draft.
              • Aceppo May 10, 2011 at 2:12 pm

                I would, because the elite talent is so much harder to find than the mediocre talent and is so much more substantially value.

                Thole has a career line of .274 AVG and .689 OPS, with 3 HR and 35 RBI in 347 AB. That pro-rates to 5 HR over a full 600 AB season. Every organization has five catchers who could do that in their system. Forget Mike Piazza, this guy isn’t even Todd Pratt. I know, it’s early in his career, but so far Thole has shown himself to be a sub-standard defensive catcher with limited offensive skills… he’s kind of like the backstop version of Daniel Murphy, who is actually better than Thole so far with the bat and maybe with the glove (at least at 2B, not in LF). Thole is almost a non-factor in that draft, to me.

                Parnell is a middle reliever with a 4.71 ERA and 1.58 WHIP in 135.2 major league IP, with 121 K and an opponent BAA of .282. Again, like Thole, this guy is a dime-a-dozen, MORESO because he’s a middle reliever, not a potential closer or even a back-of-the-rotation guy.

                Niese, in 255 IP, has a 4.44 ERA, 1.49 WHIP, 206 Ks, and opponent BAA of .283. But like I said, he’s young, has showed he can be a pretty good starter, needs more time to develop, and I like him. I wouldn’t want to trade him.

                BUT…

                He’s not Romero, who I’m getting the impression you’ve never seen pitch. Stats don’t account for that mythical “stuff” sometimes, and Romero’s stuff is electric. Put he and Niese side by side and watch them pitch, and it’s clear Romero projects to a 1 or 2 in a rotation as opposed to Niese, who may top out as a nice 3. Romero, in 430 IP, has a 3.99 ERA and a 1.38 WHIP to go along with a .259 opponent BAA and 358 Ks and a K rate that rises from year to year along with a .WHIP and BAA that has been consistently falling at an annual rate.

                Then there is the strange case of Mike Pelfrey, who appears to be unraveling before our very eyes. In a career plagued by inconsistency (and I use to be among Big Pelf’s biggest supporters; I loved him) he has thrown 718 IP with 409 Ks, a 4.40 ERA, a 1.47 WHIP, and a .284 BAA. 718 IP is about enough time to get to know who a pitcher is, I think, and Pelf is a guy who has been either very good or horrendous from start to start. He’s one of the guys I HOPE Alderson trades at the deadline while he still has some, ANY, value.

                So in my view? Thole is a replaceable journeyman. Parnell is a replaceable journeyman. Niese is a young pitcher with potential. Pelfrey is who he is. Romero is an electric pitcher who is getting better and better each year.

                I’ll take Romero and give JP the win for that draft class, because the electric Ace (or ace-in-waiting) is so much harder to find and/or replace than guys like Niese (who I think has the most value by far of that Mets draft class), Pelfrey, Thole, and Parnell.
          • t agee May 9, 2011 at 11:43 pm

            Maniac your out of your ‘effin mind. Reyes was an IFA signed under the Phillips regime, Wright was drafted by Phillips. Omar had nothing to do with the Mets drafts. If he had Metsie would have provided some links, quotes, articles, ect. He never did and he never will because they don’t exist.

            Omar wasn’t involved in the Met drafts, although one of the scouts who worked under Omar in the International area, a scout by the name of Eddie Toledo who was hired by Frank Cashen discovered Reyes and called Omar to get authorization to sign him so if you want to glom the credit for your swami it’s alright with me but Wright, not factually correct that Omar had anything to do with drafting him. He was drafted by Carmen Fusco who’s job was to run the draft in consultation with Phillips.

            Steve Phillips in 6 years of drafts only drafted two good players and you want to take them away from him? He got ZERO out of 13 1st 2nd and 3rd round picks and your claiming Omar was responsible for one of them? Then Omar must be responsible for the 13 ZERO’S too. If that’s the case Omar really sucked in the draft.
            • AcePPO May 9, 2011 at 11:45 pm

              Right, we’re throwing logic out the window here (I’m allowing it because I don’t feel like arguing about it) and giving Omar credit for two players he had pretty much nothing to do with.
            • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 9:59 am

              Ah say the lie until the lie is true methodology…

              It’s tired and boring at this point…also very very weak argument!

              Omar was SENIOR ASST GM!

              This is a PROVEN FACT!
        • Vinny B May 9, 2011 at 11:38 pm

          I would do that trade too. But that doesn’t make J.P’s drafts than Omar’s, because you left out the two best players Wright and Davis. Wright’s a career .300 hitter, and Davis looks like he’s going to be a 30-40 HR guy….

          J.P also had more 1st round picks than Omar.
          • AcePPO May 9, 2011 at 11:41 pm

            I’m talking about those two specific years, of which Wright and Reyes were not part. Ricciardi deserves the “wins” for the years he drafted Marcum (Omar got the “win” for drafting Cordero?) And Ricciardi deserves the “win” for drafting Romero over Omar’s mix of Pelf, Niese, Thole, and Parnell. Wright and Reyes have nothing to do with my argument.

            I’m playing by the rules established by the O.P.; no good changing those rules around now to suit your argument. And as I just mentioned above, Reyes isn’t even part of the time frame we’re comparing here so I don’t think you get to bring him up at all.
            • AcePPO May 9, 2011 at 11:43 pm

              Why’d I think you said Reyes? Sorry bout that. Davis doesn’t factor into the equation either, though, as he’s not part of the Marcum/Romero years either.

              And I’d take Marcum or Romero over Davis. Sorry. Pitching wins. (And I love Davis.)
            • Vinny B May 10, 2011 at 12:00 am

              He made it a tie between Depo and Omar, I would have made it a tie between Depo and J.P.

              As I said up top, your overrating Romero, he’s not an ACE. He’s not that much better than Pelfrey and Niese. He’s better, but not THAT much better to make it a win for J.P in my opinion.

              Davis is about 5 years younger than Marcum, and a few years younger than Romero, and Marcum has an injury history – I would not trade either one for Davis.
              • AcePPO May 10, 2011 at 12:02 am

                Dude, have you WATCHED Mike Pelfrey and John Niese pitch this year? Romero IS that much better than they are. You wouldn’t trade Ike for either of those guys? That’s fair; I love Ike and wouldn’t want to see him go either. But Marcum and Romero, to date, have more value than Ike. If we’re just judging by results and not potential…
              • Vinny B May 10, 2011 at 12:13 am

                As I said, it’s close. If your going by just this year then you’d be right, but we are not, Pelf won 15 games last year and should have made the all star team, and Niese pitched good last year too, not great, but good, and Romero didn’t pitch great last year either. So…..

                And it’s not like Romero is pitching that great this year too, 2-4 4.00 ERA.
              • t agee May 10, 2011 at 12:23 am

                To date 2002 – 2009 Omar’s draft class has achieved a 15.9 Baseball-reference WAR. Riccardi 44.7 during the same time period, in a much tougher division.
              • AcePPO May 10, 2011 at 12:24 am

                Romero has had 5 out of 7 quality starts (and two shellackings) and 45 Ks in 43 IP.

                Pelf has had 2 out of 7 quality starts (and a bunch of shellackings) and 21 Ks in 35.2 IP.

                Niese has had 4 out of 7 quality starts and 29 Ks in 42 IP.

                I will take Romero. And then Niese. And not Pelf. Thole and Parnell to me, frankly, are non-factors. Completely replaceable.
              • Vinny B May 10, 2011 at 11:47 am

                Agee, that’s because you aren’t counting Wright. Wright by himslef, probably come close in WAR to all of J.P’s draft picks. So if you were to count him, like Maniac was doing, Omar’s picks would have a higher WAR.

                I feel that the two best players drafted by J.p and OMar are going to be Wright and Davis. Davis has only played 1 year in the majors, so that’s why he wouldn’t have a high career WAR right now. In a few years, i bet that Omars picks are going to have a MUCH higher WAR than J.P’s because of Ike.
              • t agee May 10, 2011 at 5:10 pm

                Vinny, All you Omar sychophants are clawing and grasping at the 2001 draft because of Wright, because he makes your case.

                There has never, and will never be any attribution to Minaya for Wright. Minaya can, has and always will get credit for Reyes, even though that link is pretty tenuous. I have no problem crediting Minaya for reyes. I have a very large problem crediting Minaya for Wright. Unlike Reyes where there have been countless articles about the two and how Reyes came to sign with us, there has never been anything linking Minaya to the drafting of Wright.

                How could there be? Omar was an Assistant GM. Carmen Fusco was the Director of Amateur scouting, Gary Laroque was his assistant, those are the guys, in consultation with the GM that ran the draft. Omar had his own big day coming up in less than a month recruiting and keeping tabs on guys for the July 2 International signing day.

                Is it outside the realm of possibilities that Omar could have had something to do with the draft? No, but you guys state it like it was a fact and yet there is not one shred of evidence linking Omar to ANY Met draft while he was here and while your so quick to glom the credit of the only good player we got out of 6 years of Phillips drafts for Minaya what about the 13 1st, 2nd and 3rd busts Phillips had here? Oh. Those were on Phillips? and only Wright was on Minaya? Right.

                The fact is anyone involved in Steve Phillips drafts should be immediately banned from baseball for incompetence. Trying to link them to your swami is causing irreperable harm to his resume.

                Fact is Minaya had ZERO to do with the NY Mets drafting David Wright.

                Your just trying to rearrange the facts to fit your case.
              • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 5:14 pm

                “There has never, and will never be any attribution to Minaya for Wright”

                Never been attributed to the guys you say it was attributed either…I guess being the SENIOR ASST GM meant he had no say over the selection mere directors had all the power and made decisions without permission from their boss…

                Because we all know you ignore your boss and make decisions he doesn’t like all the time!

                Repetition is not substitute for cold hard proof.

                The cold hard proof says Omar was SENIOR to every name you mentioned in regards to Wrights being drafted…

                SOmething you can hide from but can’t run!
              • Vinny B May 10, 2011 at 5:24 pm

                Fine take him out. But if you do that, you will also have to take out Either, Blanton, and Swisher for Depo, because he wasn’t GM when they were picked.

                I think when you do that your being REALLY unfair to Depodesta. I thought the way Maniac did was the most fair, even though it was not perfect.
          • t agee May 9, 2011 at 11:52 pm

            That’s cause Omar gave away so many first round picks. You can’t have it both ways. Besides the guy who does the best is the guy who nails a Josh Johnson in the 4th round, not a guy who nails a Mike Pelfrey at #9 of the first round.
            • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 10:00 am

              Yes he gave away a lot of 1st round picks yet still got more from his FEWER picks than DePo got with 4 times as many!
              • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 10:01 am

                Sorry Depo only had twice as many!
• jessep May 10, 2011 at 1:53 pm

  http://metsmerizedonline.com/2010/10/aftermath-mets-fire-jerry-manuel-and-omar-minaya.html

  http://metsmerizedonline.com/2010/10/mets-need-to-realize-actions-speak-louder-than-words.html

  I think it’s clear this is an agenda against 2 baseball executives that Maniac, you do not know anything about right now but you just know they think differently than you… so you pounce.

  Because it’s clear as day that you were not an Omar fan, yet I’m supposed to sit here and accept the fact that you now suddenly are giving him praise?

  Fun quotes

  “Yes who could ever forget those great Hispanic born players that led the Mets to their only World Series titles in 1969 and 1986. Watching Tomasso Seaver-ez, Nolano Ryan-ez, and Geraldo Koosman-ez mow down the Orioles to complete the miracle was something I wont soon forget. And if not for Mookiero Wilson-ez and Raymondo Knight-ez there would have been no 1986 Title. Forgive me! I forgot to mention Miguel Piazza, Geovany Olerud, Alberto Lieter-ez and Robin Venturacion in 2000. The only bad Hispanic that year was Armando Benitez who choked of course and cost us another title.” — Seems strange that Omar’s method of building a team didn’t suit your needs on October 5, 2010?

  “Yeah I got what I wished for! Omar is out!!! And you’re the fool who said the beat writers didnt know crap and that Omar wasnt going to get fired. In the end all that smack you kept talking only proved you had your head up your a** all along.” — My personal favorite

  “It had everything to do with baseball. Baseball is about winning and going to the postseason and for four straight years Omar Minaya has failed while being paid handsomely.
  He has made us an embarrassment!” — Man you were tough on Omar!

  “Good because I love to show people what an ignorant fool you are and what a bigot. You’re not a Met fan! You were only a Los Mets fan and now that your leader is gone, you’ll find another team to go root for. Good riddance to both you and Omar.” — Weird.

  So Maniac, I just wonder how somebody who was so CLEARLY against Omar Minaya, could suddenly switch their tune 7 months later and write a piece in which they show everybody just how smart Omar was and just how much they liked him?

  You see my confusion… don’t you?
  • Bayonne Mets Fan May 10, 2011 at 2:16 pm

    The WHOLE argument is about people unfairly criticizing Omar Minaya for the job he did yet praising a Front Office that hadn’t done anything yet. That’s all it was. Yes me and most people wanted Omar out too but he’s ALSO did not do as bad as the new Alderson crowd is saying either…that’s ALL IT IS.

    That’s ALL the recent debates have been about – praising a Front Office that had yet done a thing while unfairly KILLING a guy, while yes was a complete public relations disaster in times of trouble for the Mets and yes handed out some AWFUL contracts, and YES could have had a latino bias…BUT….at the same time did not do as bad a job as some people were saying.

    You can go to ANY post back then and I bet you can find me slamming the heck out of Minaya too. It doesn’t mean that despite all of his shortcomings he didn’t build the Mets some good teams to win because HE DID. A couple of bad breaks on the field in 07 & 08, some real unfortunate injuries and he’d be here today.

    As usual one of this sites most superficial posters has done what he does best again – SPIN. And spin out of context. Only yesterday he ran away with his tail between his legs because he was PROVED to have stacked the deck by adding Depo’s AND JP Riccardi’s draft picks TOGETHER in the argument agains Omar Minay’s picks while working for one team.

    This guy has been doing this type of cheap, spinning, sliding out the backdoor arguing here from day one.
    • Bayonne Mets Fan May 10, 2011 at 2:25 pm

      Let me add that i bet anyone can also go back to around 2008 or even 2007 and find quotes by me absolutely KILLING Reyes for his mental mistakes and lack of stealing in important spots. I probably said a lot more worst things about Reyes then and there are people here now who can attest to how much I’ve killed Reyes and even moreso Beltran. I’ve KILLED Beltran in the past. But it’s now 2011, this is a team that has a lineup that I think can win and we’ve got to move on.

      I’m sure you can copy and paste those things if you wanted to now to say i’m a hypocrite because I’m now defending keeping Reyes instead of Wright. Doing that kind of thing is unfair and totally dishonest.
      • t agee May 10, 2011 at 3:10 pm

        Employing the old advance backtrack I see. Hmmmm. Just another staple of the tried and true hypocrite. The long term chronic genuine hypocrite.

        To paraphrase Dennis Greene for a second. “you are what we thought you were.”
        • Bayonne Mets Fan May 10, 2011 at 3:31 pm

          Not backtracking,

          He still makes a lot of those mistakes but I would still rather move Wright than Reyes. Reyes STILL has a lot of things to offer with his speed, defense, arm, hitting. But he’s still extremely DUMB and that may STILL be his undoing now.

          Not backtracking at all. You of all people shouldn’t be talking about being a hypocrite with your daily second guessing of the Mets drafting system over the last bunch of years however many you go back. It changes daily depending on the argument.

          You’re a hack. I’d give you credence and acknowledge your daily second guessing as legitimate if i heard this kind of talk in main stream media but we don’t. You’re just a fan who’s come up with this crazy idea that just because we lost some huge heartbreaking games in 06, 07, 08 that things would have been different if we drafted better 20 years ago (or whatever number you choose). You wouldn’t be saying those things if Aaron Heilman didn’t give up a HR to Yadier Molina, or if Carlos Beltran swung and hit the ball in 2006, or if David Wright brought in Daniel Murphy in 2008.

          Funny how 3 things can change what an organization should have done the past 40 years (or whatever)

          A complete tool you are.
          • t agee May 10, 2011 at 3:34 pm

            You are a spinning twisting chimp
        • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 5:07 pm

          Yeah he should learn how to manipulate stats and discredit facts with Fiction to get to your level of debate?
      • t agee May 10, 2011 at 3:31 pm

        Backtracking before getting exposed as a tried a true hypocrite. The surest sign of all of an experienced spinmeister.

        What a surprise. What a surprise.
    • Aceppo May 10, 2011 at 2:28 pm

      The argument is also about whether or not in the win/loss record Omar’s players were overvalued and JP’s and DePo’s were undervalued. It’s not so much I think the win/loss records in the post were adjusted to favor Omar so much as the player values were viewed through a blue and orange prism.
      • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 5:05 pm

        Wrong! It isn’t about HOW CHEAP they were it’s about how GOOD they were!

        Only those who want to make SAVING MONEY as a key to success think on those terms!
        Those who read Moneyball and found religion!
        • Aceppo May 10, 2011 at 5:10 pm

          … huh?

          What are you talking about? I didn’t say anything about cheap here. I think, in reading the original post, that guys like Thole and Parnell are being overvalued by the original poster, and that guys like Marcum and Ethier and Romero are being undervalued. I don’t know that it’s so much the OP defending Omar as much as it is the OP pumping up Mets players.

          And Moneyball was a fun read (which I’ve never mentioned here, but okay…) but was written more as entertainment than as a text book. Omar doesn’t look real good in it, but you take it for what it was: a fun read. (Omar not even knowing who Kevin Youkilis was when Billy Beane brought him up, for instance, was a little embarrassing.)

          You should read “Fantasyland”, though. THAT was a good book!
          • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 5:17 pm

            You claimed a player was undervalued…What exactly is a VALUE here?

            If not based on Salary then what?

            WIN LOSS by team is about TEAM not picks by JP or Omar…

            So in either case your point is still wrong.

            Only difference is if they were not better PERFORMANCE wise then they were not BETTER PICKS in the subject of this discussion!
            • Aceppo May 10, 2011 at 5:21 pm

              I meant “win” and “loss” in terms of the original post; that is, granting “wins” and “losses” to the GMs for their respective drafts… as was the point of this entire post. Marcum and Romero are worth more to me as players than guys like Pelfrey, Cordero, Thole, Parnell, etc., etc. The original poster disagrees, clearly, and gives “wins” to Omar over JP in the years JP drafted Marcum and Romero. I would not give Omar those “wins” and give them to JP because I value the ace-type pitcher more than those other replacement-level players. I think the OP is overvaluing Mets players in some cases.
            • Aceppo May 10, 2011 at 5:24 pm

              Oh, but see, Marcum and Romero ARE better, “performance wise”, than Pelfrey, Niese, Thole, and Parnell. And Cordero. And Murphy. Marcum and Romero are better players than those guys, and the OP didn’t recognize that or give credit to JP for drafting the more talented players. I just think he’s showing some pro-Mets bias, that’s my point.
    • t agee May 10, 2011 at 3:05 pm

      Another one of Mullah Omar’s devoted new converts chimes in to play the old “yes I’ve changed my tune but it’s because someone else did something” game.

      Someone else made me do it.

      It wasn’t my fault.

      I’ve been very critical of Omar’s flawed thought process but I’ve always viewed it through the lens of our GM only doing the Wilpon’s bidding. No different then Phillips trading everyone in sight for RIGHT NOW or Duquette trading Kazmir for RIGHT NOW or Minaya handing over draft pick after draft pick for RIGHT NOW.

      I posted an article covering a two decade period aimed more than anything at ownership since they point out the direction.

      I’ve acknowledged the good that Omar has done, I’ve said that some of the bad was understandable, I’ve even stated on many occasions that Omar had NOTHING to work with when he got here. That’s more true than not but it’s really bending over backwards to be fair because the fact is Omar did have things to work with.

      He did have some pieces. Humber, Milledge, Benson, Seo, Glavine, Trachsel, Keppinger, Bell, Ring, Lindsrtom, Owens, Floyd, and Pedro Feliciano, not to mention Reyes and Wright. He also had the pieces and opportunity to acquire La Duca and Delgado and most importantly the ability to commit 180 Million dollars in his first off season.

      This is where the newly converted Omar sychophants are so unfailingly unfair.

      Always screaming about getting a healthy pitcher when all Alderson had to spend was 13M for everything. You try to find a healthy pitcher for 13M and leave 9 bare spots. Always screaming about Garland, Harang and Wang. No matter how many times in how many different ways you show them it’s never good enough. “pay them double, then they’ll come here.” They don’t get it, they refuse to accept that this isn’t the most attractive place to come and play. Even the guys that did come here didn’t want to. Bay waffled for 4-5 days before committing, Beltran would have taken 20 M less with the NYY, Delgado went to the Marlins, Castillo needed us to give him one more year than Houston offered. Other guys were only too happy to come here when the vault was open. Alou, Schowenweiss, Mota, Sosa, Cora. There will never be any sense of fairness among the newly devoted toward the new administration.

      You know where your healthy starting pitchers are? One’s in Castillo’s wallet, one’s in Perez’s bank account and Takahashi’s in the safety deposit box that GMJ & Escobar share.

      Fair? Yeah right.
    • jessep May 10, 2011 at 2:30 pm

      You are right. While Omar Minaya worked in New York City, he has done a better job at drafting amateur players than when Ricciardi and DePodesta worked in NY City.

      Of course, any sane person would understand that we judge Omar after 6 years and we shouldn’t judge the new front office after 6 months.
      • Vinny B May 10, 2011 at 3:07 pm

        What are you talking about? lol. We are just comparing the drafts Omar, J.P and Depo had. Of course it’s not perfect, and I disagreed with some parts of the post, but overall Maniac did a very good job – It was an excellent post.

        And you are saying Maniac is biased? when you tried to combined both Depo’s and J.P’s drafts and make it sound like it was ONE draft for ONE team, when it was really drafts for TWO different teams. That’s not biased huh?

        I thought the post was VERY fair, and very informative. And of all the people that commented here, YOU were the most unfair, and most biased, when you tried to combine both J.P and Depos drafts and make them sound like it was one draft.
  • t agee May 10, 2011 at 2:22 pm

    The only answer Jessep is the svengali type powers the mystical and magical Mullah Omar possesses.

    To the newly devoted everything he did is wonderous and every thing someone else did sucks.

    There can never be a rational discussion about both the pro’s and the con’s of the Mullah Omar era.

    While no where near as bad as the architects of “the worst team money could buy part one and 2,” and miles better than that complete moron Duquette, Omar did lead us right back into a 3rd death spiral of the Wilpon error by constantly putting the short term ahead of the long term. He did at least have the restraint to avoid trading the farm, a hall mark of Phillips, and he did provide some depth and some raw talent but his irrational exuberance at dominating a very weak NL and a crippled NL East led to some of the very same tunnel vision now exhibited by his most devoted new converts.
    • srt May 10, 2011 at 2:45 pm

      I couldn’t agree more with this synopsis.

      Omar was did have a plan and was more or less following it until 2006. He lost his way that year. I believe it’s exactly for the reason you stated. He falsely surmised the Mets had an over dominating team, without realizing that half the reason we ran away with it at the ASB was b/c the rest of the division was downright awful that year.

      Had he looked to build on what made them good in ’06, while concentrating on picks, youth, prospects, etc…..we wouldn’t be in the shape we are right now.
    • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 5:04 pm

      “The only answer Jessep is the svengali type powers the mystical and magical Mullah Omar possesses.”

      It couldn’t just be blowback from the beatification and worship of any name that made it onto Moneyball…No Way!

      ROFLMAO!
      • t agee May 10, 2011 at 6:03 pm

        It could very well be blowback from that book but it shouldn’t blow back and obscure everthing in it’s path. I thought the book was an interesting read but save for a couple of good ideas thought they were all wrong or had things that don’t really apply to us in it.

        I believe the 2002 draft that is a central part of the story is comically absurd.

        But how that can inspire people to actively take issue with almost every move made and compare it to the last administration which almost everyone wanted gone is beyond me.

        How 180M vs 13M inhibits your first off season spending is never taken into account.

        How almost the entire budget was committed before day one.

        How 90% of the payroll was questionable or in transititon on day one

        Did you hear Alderson bemoan the fact that he he had 20 M out on the street and only 13 M to work with?

        How can that blowback cause guys to root for Omar’s guys and against Alderson’s?

        Very strange, very narrow minded.
  • Met Maniac May 10, 2011 at 3:50 pm

    Of course I was denied access to the archives which would have shown the hypocrisy. But when it comes to jessep you dont have look afr for his flip-flopping and twisting.

    He accuses me of being angry at Omar one day and defending him the next, and posted quotes that were seven months apart.

    Here is jessep in action in two posts he wrote:

    Jul 28 – Omar Minaya now more than ever has to remain the General Manager of the New York Mets.”

    http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/07/there-is-another-side-to-this.html

    August 14: As one of Omar Minaya’s biggest supporters, I do believe it will be time to demote him after this season.

    http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/08/the-mets-need-to-be-bold.html

    Those posts were written two weeks apart.

    This thread has taken on a life of its own and unfairly so.

    I never said Omar was a great or better GM than Depo and Ricciardi. In fact I wrote in this post,

    Minaya has always been and still is a great evaluator of talent. Too many have forgotten that one of the reasons Minaya was hired in the first place was because of his eye for talent — he scouted and signed several star players including Sammy Sosa, Juan Gonzalez and Jose Reyes.

    You want to kill me for my point of view, go ahead. But don’t do it by trying to twist my words or paint me as a double-talking idiot especially from one who has no right to call a kettle black, or suggest that I my positions confused him.

    Let him unconfuse us and tell us where HE really stands. I know where I stand, Omar sucked as a GM and gave out terrible contracts, but he was a good evaluator of talent.

    This is my last contribution, because I expected better treatment from the editors and wwriters on this site for a contribuiton from one of their longtime readers.

    http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/07/there-is-another-side-to-this.html
    • t agee May 10, 2011 at 4:11 pm

      Oh come on Maniac. I thought your article was well received. I wish that there had been a list of all the players drafted during all the years but I thought it was a very good, Very timely, very relevant post. Very relevant since there is every reason to be concerned about the current Director of Scouting.

      All right, it turned into a row. What thread at MMO doesn’t? For that matter what good party doesn’t either?

      Sure Vinny’s point was right about TWO teams drafts being compared to one, but on the other hand you started off with including Wright in the 2001 when there is absolutely no proof or anything ever linking Minaya to having anything whatsoever to do with the draft during his time as AGM. His end was international scouting. Virginia’s in the US.

      Besides why start with Omar as AGM in 2001 when you could have started with JP and Omar as full fledged GM’s in 2002?

      If you ask me 2002 tells me an awful lot about all three of them and their results haven’t gotten any better. Any of them.

      By the way the guy who ran the draft for Omar is still with Washington. Clearly Strassburg and Harper don’t provide much of an insight but furthur down the list is interesting.

      Most of all you’ve been hammering the new administration for months now. Every chance you get. Boyer, Emaus, Hairston, Harris, Capuano. We’re you all over Mientkievich, Daubach, Offerman, Cairo and Valent? Kaz Ishi? Mike Matthews?

      You do recognize the difference in being able to allocate 180 M compared to 13 right?

      Lighten up. I for one thought it was a good posting and that it brought a needed spot light to a long term poorly done area of the Mets business plan and I think everyone received it well until the thread degenerated into the usual armed camps.
      • Vinny B May 10, 2011 at 5:00 pm

        But Agee, if you take out Omar’s picks as AGM with the Mets, then you would have to take Depo’s picks when he was with A’s – if you did that, Depo wouldn’t get credit for drafting Either, Blanton and swisher. That would make Depo’s drafts seem MUCH worse the Minaya’s AND J.P’s.

        So that would look like this:

        Hill, Marcum, Lind, Romero, Snider, Arencibia, and Cecil – J.P’s picks.

        Cordero, Desmond, Pelfrey, Niese, Parnell, J. Smith, Thole, Murphy, and Ike – Omar’s picks.

        Dewitt – Depo’s picks – LOL. and that’s with a more 1st round picks too.
        • Metsie May 10, 2011 at 5:19 pm

          Oh Vinny don’t you know that your not supposed to compare them by the same standard!

          You are supposed to set different standards for each side in any argument so that you can make false claims and spew agendas as fact! LOL
        • t agee May 10, 2011 at 5:44 pm

          That’s cool with me Vinny. I think they were all poor in the draft. That 2002 draft was dripping with talent and the A’s had 7 first or supplemental round picks and got one all star game out of it. Putrid results.

          There is an argument though for including DePo’s drafts though because there is documented evidence that he was very much involved in the selection process. For Minaya there is no such documented evidence. For all anyone knows he could very well have been off doing his end of things in the DR or Venezuela which would make a lot of sense since the International signing period is July 2, four weeks away from the June amateur draft.

          Either way it makes no difference to me. I think Omar could have done a very good job with the draft if A) He had put building a team for the longhaul above trying to get a World Championship and then rebuilding and B) if he had been allowed to go over slot.

          Maybe if he held back some money from the 25 he would have had more to work with at draft time. I doubt it because of the Wilpon putting their Bud ahead of their fans but still……Who knows.

          All in all I think Maniac’s article was very thought provoking. I wish he hadn’t tried to sneak Wright into the draft and there were a couple of things like Either was devalued because he was soon traded but Mulvey helped get us Santana to skew the story a little.

          Just present the facts and let the debate rage without influencing or nudging opinions.

          There is nothing we can do about Omar’s drafts now. I think he was a little unlucky in that years in which he kept the first rounder weren’t as good as years in which he gave it away. Ownership has a problem with the draft and he was drafting relief pitchers for crying out loud. Trying to get something up here right away instead of getting us the best players. He also got unlucky with the comp picks for Hernandez being only a 2nd rounder and Bradford a 3rd rounder. That hurt. The only focus really should be who did DePo select over who else was available and why? That’s the only relevant question for us going forward. (other than slot guidelines)

          I’m going to take a look at drafts I know DePo was involved in and see what is what as much as I can tell.

          Still and all DePo had a very flawed draft philosophy and I think it was very timely that Maniac brought it to the forefront.
          • Vinny B May 10, 2011 at 6:22 pm

            You’re right, all three of them had bad drafts. But I think Depo’s were BY FAR the worst. He had SO many more 1st round picks than both Omar and J.P, and Omar and J.P drafted MORE major leaguers, and MORE talented guys than Depo – With a LOT lESS picks.

            I think Omar and J.P’s drafts were close, I think it could be argued either way. But in my opinion, i thought Omar’s were a little better.

            But like you said, all of them didn’t have good drafts.
            • t agee May 10, 2011 at 6:31 pm

              DePo’s drafts have been almost indescribably bad.

              I think Maniac did a great service by bringing this up.

              This could be a problem.
        • t agee May 10, 2011 at 5:52 pm

          And the other thing Vinny is that I don’t care about trying to make one better than another. I just care about looking at them accurately.

          DePo’s drafts have sucked. Omar’s too. Hey getting something out of the 7th – 13th round is better than getting nothing I give you but to date only Pelfrey (1st rnd #9) and Ike (1st rnd #18) have really done anything.

          I like the Niese (5th) pick and love the Gee pick (21st) and Murphy looks more than useable but through being mismanaged, rushed or whatever I’m not very sure that anyone will be bragging about Thole, Parnell and Duda down the road.

          Like I said getting something out of 5-13th rounds is great but I wish he would have gotten a lot more out of the first, 2nd and 3rd round instead.
    • jessep May 10, 2011 at 4:17 pm

      Look at how angry you are!

      I’ve gone on record more times than I can count by saying I liked Omar.

      In the first post you linked, it was based on the Rubin/Tony B scandal and I didn’t think Omar should be fired because of it. I don’t think I mention any transactions he made?

      In the second I felt he was best suited for a non GM role. I dunno, kinda like a scouting role lets say? Funny that in almost every reply on this blog you posted I mention how I don’t know, nor do I care who drafted more scrub fringe players in 2003. I still don’t.

      I only care about what they can do for a team that was left with a dry farm system, bad contracts and no chance of winning. I had fun with Omar but it failed, and so we move on. I’m happy we have the executives we have because we have guys who know how to succeed and have failed before.

      People like you despite JP or DePo and you don’t even know why other than they think differently so you must hate them. Nevermind the fact JP for example has played more professional baseball for example… but you act as though they only know about baseball from a book.
      • jessep May 10, 2011 at 4:21 pm

        Maniac: You have to admit its hard to be credible and take your point of view serious when you say things like

        “Good because I love to show people what an ignorant fool you are and what a bigot. You’re not a Met fan! You were only a Los Mets fan and now that your leader is gone, you’ll find another team to go root for. Good riddance to both you and Omar.”

        I mean you come here write a nice little piece claiming Omar drafted better players than DePo and JP when 7 months ago you were celebrating his removal because he was the “leader” of the “los mets”

        Sounds to me like you were forshadowing a great post on Omar’s international scouting, I look forward to reading it. If you need a quote, please let me know!
• Aceppo May 10, 2011 at 5:15 pm

  I think you all need to walk away from your computers. None of you are making any sense anymore.
  • BTF May 10, 2011 at 5:59 pm

    Agreed, my eyes hurt.
• Mets Trade Jon Matlack for David Wright May 12, 2011 at 2:05 pm

  [...] MetsMerizedOnline, there is a comprehensive analysis of the drafts overseen by Omar Minaya, Paul DePodesta, and J.P. Ricciardi over the past 10 years. And guess what? Omar comes out looking a lot better than you might [...]