2
2010
Most Mets Fans Gave Francoeur A Proper Sendoff
An article by 
During last night’s Mets broadcast, I thought the best part of a dismal game was when Gary, Keith and Ron found themselves stumbling for words when the results of the Toyota Text Poll was revealed. Here is a screen shot courtesy of Amazin Avenue.
Keith Hernandez spoke out first and said “Hmmm”. Gary Cohen and Ron Darling were a little more enlightening, but still struggled to decipher the results. And even Kevin Burkhardt found it necessary to jump in and try to explain what we were seeing which he aptly did.
I think what many forget is that most Mets fans don’t blog or read blogs, or have a Twitter or Facebook account, and that the great majority of fans simply don’t over analyze and scrutinize every single at-bat and pitch the way the new internet savvy fans do. They don’t go to websites to read charts with a hundred or so different colored dots on them, or view graphs with a half-dozen squiggly lines that resembles the results of their last EKG. Some of the internet’s most popular baseball sites are centered mostly on statistical analysis, and dozens more are popping up every month. And although many of these sites have large internet and social media followings, their analytical views of the National Pastime simply does not resonate with the vast majority of baseball fans.
Many old school fans, especially those who still remember watching “The Hammer” John Milner, or Buddy Harrelson and Pete Rose going at it, still root for their favorite baseball players based on their personality and likability. Nobody ever threw a Coke bottle at Ron Swoboda because he batted .235 in 1969. They loved him and cherished him because he was one of the brightest personalities on the team. He was funny, clowned around in the clubhouse and kept everybody loose.
With a growing number of the new breed of baseball fans, there’s no room for personality and things like that. They can form opinions of players without even watching them throw a pitch or take a swing simply by looking at a boxscore. If a player can’t maintain their prescribed minimum statistical performance levels, then they have no use for that player. He is rendered obsolete and becomes the punchline of millions of social media jokes each one intended to one-up the other in a barrage of ever so clever one liners.
Now getting back to Jeff Francoeur.
I understand that Francoeur wasn’t meeting the minimum expectations of these new-fangled baseball fans, but did Francoeur actually deserve to be mocked and attacked the way he was in over a thousand posts and tweets on Wednesday? Couldn’t all the bad jokes and acrimonious insults be reserved instead for someone like Oliver Perez whose selfish acts actually hurt the team and he continues to be a malcontent that couldn’t care less about his teammates or the fans?
Why persecute a player who always gave 110% of pure effort every time he took the field? Why minimize the many good things Francoeur did, just so you could amplify your arguments and animosity against him? Not even Vince Coleman or Bobby Bonilla was treated this badly.
Reading all the negative posts yesterday really made me wonder about how Mets fans were evolving. I thought the theory of evolution hypothesized that a species can adapt and improve as they evolved. Surely Darwin couldn’t have imagined that some day a baseball fan would blow his theory out of the water. Maybe we should discard the use of the word fan in some cases, because it know longer exemplifies the fanaticism for a team and it’s players that it once did. Or maybe not…
The one good thing that came out of that Toyota Text Poll, was that it showed me that true fans still exist – - and do so in great numbers.
It reminded me that although me and millions of others baseball fans debate, blog, tweet and opine about the game closely on the internet, that tens of millions more fans simply get their baseball fix by going to the games, tuning in religiously on radio or TV, and reading the back pages of the newspaper in the morning.
It was nice to see those Mets fans give Francoeur the sendoff he deserved by participating in a poll and letting Frenchy know:
Hey, thanks for always trying… and thanks for always hustling… but mostly thanks for being a great teammate and a good Met…
Take it easy Jeff, and good luck to you.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
Went to my first Mets game, a Mayors Trophy game at Shea, in '73. We beat the Yankees 8-4 and I was hooked. I marched in two Banner Day parades, and before the Grand Slam single, there was the "Hendu Can Do" grand slam - I was there. I've collected Mets memorabilia all my life and started Mets Merized Online to feed my addiction.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 26 | 17 | .605 | - |
| Nationals | 25 | 17 | .595 | 0.5 |
| Marlins | 23 | 19 | .548 | 2.5 |
| Mets | 22 | 20 | .524 | 3.5 |
| Phillies | 21 | 22 | .488 | 5.0 |
Last updated: 05/22/2012
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it isnt a personal insult to favor getting rid of a terrible player. that is what you dont understand.
again, i could go on the field and give a crazy effort and laugh and joke at twice the rate of francouer. that doesnt make me a major league talent. and telling the truth, acknowledging that it is good that a terrible players is no longer on the team, this is not a personal insult to anyone. it doesnt make anyone a “bad fan” for understanding the game.
it is not a “proper sendoff” to oppose a smart trade of a superior player for a wildly inferior one. try to understand the difference between personal insults and trying to win. players get cut and traded, dont be a child about it.
Meh…obviously you don’t understand the majority of long-time Mets fans always appreciate the guy that goes out there and gives you a solid effort every day win or lose…he might not make that spectacular diving catch, but did he do everything possible to try to? Or did he dog it?
He may not have thrown out that runner at home, but did he at least make the throw and try to complete the play, or did he just throw the ball in to the cutoff man and concede the run?
Swoboda…Lee Mazzilli…Rusty Staub…Lenny Dykstra…Wally Backman…Joe Orsulak…the list goes on. Guys who broke their hump, weren’t afraid to get their uniforms dirty, ran through walls…there’s more to being a Mets fan fave than hitting homers and making spectacular catches. It also comes from showing us you CARE about being a Met. There’s always talk about “Yankee Pride,” in Queens, truly great Mets have always had balls…
like i said, if effort is all you care about, then i suggest you sign burn victims and amputees, they really try super hard and i genuinely respect them.
You know it takes both effort and production, martin…but without effort, can there really be production?
I don’t think your comparison is valid on a baseball level.
it takes both effort and production? well, more accurately, it takes production. if val pascuccis could provide better production than frenchy with half the effort, he would be better for the team. effort is part of the means to an end. production is what is relevant, whether it is a result of immense talent or immense effort. frenhy was clearly wildly undertalented at pitch recognition, and always was. he swung at everything, because he simply sucked at knowing when to swing. and this is a really critical skill to have. he was awful.
In 2008, everyone said Manny Ramirez quit on the Red Sox, that he wasn’t playing hard and just dogged it. He batted. .299/.398/.529 with 20 homers. Talent is far more important than work ethic or how much a player hustles. Nice to see a guy work his ass off, which is what most of these guys do, like 95% of them really, but it don’t mean shit if they suck.
What a surprise, all your hump-breakers are white guys. I’m sarcastically sure that that’s just a coincidence.
So you think if people don’t hate Francoeur they are racist? and you complain about me making nonsensical comments? lol
So you what you are saying is we that don’t hate Francoeur because he is white?
Ok…this is getting crazy now. but what should I expect, since amazin avenue has a link to here. all the nuts are coming.
You have no clue, huh? It’s impossible to have a discussion with someone who tries to make logical and reasonable deductions without using logic or reason. I can hear your gears slowly grinding with every “so what you are saying is…”.
It seems like all saber fans(or whatever you call them)are so damn arrogant. I’m sure that there are some good people who like sabermertrics but the ones I have seen whoa! they are wayyyy out there. People like mag537 really give sabermetrics a bad name.
I’m not going to waste any more time with these nuts. and you know what I’m just as bad because I responed to these lunatics. These people don’t deserve a response.
It’s unbelievable that these people think that they are smarter than everyone else just because they use stats that not many people use. You know why not many people use them? because most normal people just don’t give a damn.
Like I said there is probably some nice normal people who like sabermetrics. But it doesn’t seem like there is many of them.
We don’t think we’re smarter because we use stats, we think we’re smarter because we’re smarter.
“You know why not many people use them? Because most normal people just don’t give a damn.”
Vinny, more and more people whose baseball-related careers depend on getting it right do care a great deal about advanced statistics. And if you have noticed, more journalists have embraced them too, Peter Gammons perhaps being the most notable. However, I do agree that the average fan — that is, those who have no professional or financial stake in their team — “just don’t give a damn.”
“I understand that Francoeur wasn’t meeting the minimum expectations of these new-fangled baseball fans” – joe
a proper way to say this is that frenchy was objectively terrible. again, this is not an insult, but a fact. he isnt terrible according to some weirdos, he is objectively horrendous and was killing the team. any team that wants to win should not start him.
if the fans have no interest in winning, that is fine, favor an army of terrible players with incredible personalities. but if winning is the goal, then understand that allowing francouer to remain on the team was a bad decision. the people who answered that poll were not question if they thought francouer was a nice guy, (which of course they wouldnt really know, because they dont know him) but whether the trade was a good idea. joe, please stop being a moron and understand the difference.
honestly, and i mean this in the least insulting way possible, i think lots of you should become fans of the special olympics. that stuff is inspiring. they really give their all. they go out there and even though they cant actually perform at all, they try really really hard, in spite of incredible obstacles, and they smile the whole time. and this is rewarding and touching to watch. seriously. and being a fan of these special people is amazing and rewarding. if you simply want to be fans of people that give their all, then you can find people that have ten times the heart of frenchy. less talent, but apparently that isnt the issue and it is mean to point that out, even about pros.
I’m not saying Francoeur was great or even deserved an everyday job in rightfield. I’m saying that what we saw and read in the Mets blogospere was uncalled for and that thanfully, in the end, he got a proper sendoff by fans who were probably angered by the bevy of negative posts. I’m glad most Mets fans appreciated his efforts even though we all know he didnt meet expectations. This is a post of how fans have evolved more-so than a post about Francoeur.
See my post to martin above, Joe D…
Thanks starbase, you understood my point.
joe read slowly. if i favor trading away a terrible player, that doesnt mean i appreciate his efforts. it means he is terrible and shouldnt play on the team. try to understand there are two different issues here, respect for the dude (he seems nice but i dont care) and respect for his skills, which are absolutely abyssal and historically bad.
what does that mean “proper sendoff” the poll wasnt asking anything about appreciating his effort, was it? it was about baseball, not personality or effort. why is this so hard for you to understand?
It really was justified. Not many bloggers had an issue with Jeff personally, just the fact that he was both a bad baseball player and a decent hit on our budget. Getting rid of the frenchman should improve the 2011 Mets.
why is oliver perez such a pariah when francouer says through his agent that he wants to be traded to a team that plays him more? frenchy cant adapt to a bench role, too selfish?
“But if we’re not going to play every day in New York, we absolutely welcome the opportunity to play every day somewhere else” – frenchy’s agent
how is that not the definition of selfish, putting one’s wants ahead of the team?
Mets had already leaked they were trying to trade Francoeur and that was a response. Also, dont you dare try to paint Perez as a victim and Francoeur as a villain. You will lose all credibilty if you do.
i am saying both perez and frenchy wanted the same thing, playing time in the big leagues, they didnt care about the mets. frenchy sais so, explicitly, through his agent. he wanted playing time and he welcomed leaving the mets to get it. how is that not selfish? (i dont think it is wrong to be selfish btw). isnt is a bit whiny to want to be traded the moment you are benched for miserable perfomance? isnt the proper attitude to say that you will be willing to go down to the minors and work things out and return to help the team?
Well I think you are twisting what is being said to make Frenchie look selfish. He did not say that he refused to play in a bench role, he just prefer to play on a day to day basis.
It is no different then a person working a temp job that states that he likes the work that he does but would take a full time job if one was offered to him. If his current employer can’t offer him a fulltime job, but another club or employer can, then anybody out there would take the fulltime job over a part-time position.
To blame him for wanting more job security and calling it an act of selfishness is ridiculous and wrong. If they would have asked Jeff to go down to the minors, he would, because he wants to help the club. They asked him to platoon in right field and he did. Now for him to prefer to play everyday over platooning is natural, and anybody in that position would react the same way. It’s not like he gave less effort while he was in the sub-level role to send a message to mgmt to play him everyday, No he still went out there and gave 100% even in a less impact role.
Jeff is a wonderful person and a decent baseball presence. He added tons of personallity and fun to the clubhouse which was badly needed. The Mets had a lack-of-personallity clubhouse years prior to Francouer coming to the club, and we never won anything then either.
To many Mets fans are stat trackers and team chemistry unfortunately does not have a stat that people can measure, but it is real, and it is a huge contributor to a championship team. Jeff was not the only player not driving in runs, or hitting in the clutch. To pin him as the scapegoat is disgusting, and unwarranted.
I wish him well and hope he wins a championship with Texas this year. The Mets can spend the rest of the season in misery as they half-ass it through the remainder of the games. Atleast Francouer would have kept the motivation of the club up and given the fans some decent games to watch.
You will all see that the remaining games will be dreadful, a lifeless team taking the field, not because they are all but eliminated from post-season, but because they lost a major part of their team chemistry
ok, then why is oliver perez selfish? doesnt he want more “job security” as well? again, i am not the kind of person that accuses ballplayers of being selfish. they are adults with jobs and families and they want money. fine. but why are we critical of perez but not francouer? francouer, according to you, cares about “job security”. what about the team, jeff? why not do what you can to help the mets? why not go down to AAA and work on pitch selection? dont you want to improve so the mets can win? are you not for the team jeff? why is everything suddenly about jeff and not the team? wanting a trade? what about the mets, jeff?
Wow dude, reading your comments I cant believe what youre saying. Ollie refused an assignment to go to AAA so he could work out his probles, become a better pitcher, and help his team in the long run. He got $36 million dollars and his third highest paid player on the Mets!! How can you even compare that to Francore??? Oh brutha.
i guess, like francouer, perez valued his playing time in the bigs more than he valued helping the mets. perhaps perez doesnt care about goofy things like stats and believed that he was a help to the team by his presence. stats are pretty silly, yunno. in fact i think perez was the best player on the team. i am not a stat-obsessed robot. i use subjective measures, and i just liked perez. who are you to question my subjectivity with numbers or “reality”?
Nobody even suggested that he go down to AAA. He has improved greatly in the past month as far as his pitch selection, working out walks, and not swinging for the fences every time. Why do you think the Rangers finally traded for him so long after their waiver claim? His defense alone would keep him on a ML roster, even if it’s a bench spot. He saved quite a few runs with his arm, or don’t you remember the parts of his game that have always been outstanding. I guess you like arguing for the sake of arguing.
he improved greatly over the last month? dude, he has thousands of at-bats in the big leagues. his career numbers are beyond miserable. he is worse than replacement level. please understand what that means.
Typical. Making excuses for the white guy, vilifying the brown guy for the same actions. If it looks like racism and smells like racism…
Take a look in the mirror
I do. All the time. I analyze my initial reactions to something and try to determine why I react to things the way I do. I try, always, to be aware of the motivations behind my actions, and if I suspect something I’ve felt is iffy, I address it.
Maybe some of you racist clowns should do the same.
Fun fact: racists REALLY don’t like being called out.
You read what you want to read. He stated in many articles I read, that he would have done whatever was needed.
Great post Joe!!! Disgraceful is how I would describe most of yesterdays posts on Francouer!!!
Right on! I wish Francoeur all the luck with the Rangers in the playoffs. Even if he is only in for defense, I wish him luck.
martin makes the most sense here. I’ll take 24 francouers at my next bachelor party, or as a coach, just keep him off my starting line up.
Someone once said Nice guys finish last
Stupid is as stupid says. Dumb.
I dont know Jeff’s specific numbers, but he was a good guy and he did help the team early on. I guess I still dont understand the game because people seem to rather have cheaters and cancers on the team than good guys who give 110% every game. I wish him the best of luck in Texas, that team’s going places and at least he will have the opportunity to win a championship with a team who everyone should be proud of. I’ll definitely miss making Frenchy graphics. Excellent post Joe.
kelly, the reality is that over his career frenchy proved that he is basically a double-A or worse level talent. again, that doesnt mean he is a bad person any more that it means all the guys are bad people because we dont favor them playing on the big club.
110% x 0 = 0
This sums up Jeff perfectly
Joe, it seems you believe in old fashioned things like respect and loyalty which is non existent in todays game. You are too naive to realize that everything is now reduced to stats. Nobody cares about personality anymore. The bonds between players and fans only hold as long as they perform. I preferred the good old days too, but I’ve learned to adapt. Don’t let all that rubbish you read bother you. Simply shrug your shoulders and move on. This game has been on a downward slope for two decades. It’s simply not the same game we grew up loving and that’s unfortunate.
bill, how do you know this player that was traded for is not twice as respectful and loyal as frenchy? and how is loyal of frenchy to want to be traded to a place where he starts? it is loyal, but only to francouer and his money-grubbing agent.
The people that keep making fun of francoeur’s stats need to get a life. I’m serious. What person that has a job and a family is going to come home and turn on the computer and look at a players OPS and laugh at it? The people doing this are nerds they have no life and I feel sorry for them. They don’t live in the real world.
Oh and I’m mainly talking about amazin avenue. Sorry if this is a little harsh but thats just what I think.
I should explain this better. If you want to look at all these stats fine. but to take time out of your day and make bad jokes about it is just a little strange.
i have heard keith and ron joke about guys who are “on the interstate” with a batting average in the 100s. is that creepy or strange , in your estimation? perhaps you believe such sacred numbers are precious like the pope and shouldnt be mocked?
I don’t know anybody that comes home from work and turns on the computer to check players OPS numbers and laugh all day about it. What person does that?
i dunno, and dont really care. alls i am saying is that i think fans have a poor understanding of what constitutes a player that helps a team win.
And yet your turning on your computer and making nonsensical comments on this blog keeps you in the “totally awesome and definitely not nerdy” category? What you write is not “a little harsh,” it’s just stupid, plain and simple. You’re recycling the most hackneyed and cliched arguments from the most ill-informed sports writers. The irony, of course, is that you probably view fans who pay close attention to stats as mindless drones while you view yourself as independent minded.
So what I’m saying is stupid and what Martin says isn’t? ok then. Oh and I don’t think of myself as “totally awesome.” and never said I was better than anyone else. I’m not that type of person.
I thought the posts the other day about Francoeur were horrible and I can’t believe people took time out of their day to write them. That was all I was saying.
What Martin has been writing is somewhat snarky, but not stupid. What are we supposed to do when we look at Frenchy’s stats? If we get legitimately upset, we’re accused of spewing venom and not knowing the proper definition (what a joke!) of fanatic. If we laugh, we’re told to get a life. I’ll agree that an apparently disproportionate amount of energy has gone into pointing out how bad Frenchy is, but this is a result of the completely insane credit and support he gets, not the other way around.
Well I really don’t support him. And I don’t think anyone does. I think most people just don’t hate him like you guys do.
You should be more careful when you accuse others of hate. It’s not a word to be used lightly.
I don’t hate Jeff Francoeur, the man, I hated having Jeff Francoeur, the man who isn’t good at baseball, on the team I root for.
Hey Vinny, I can’t believe I had to waste my precious time watching Francouer make predictable out after predictable out.
You guys defending Francouer are clearly unhinged. The guy is an out making machine that can hit the occasional fly ball that happens to clear the outfield fence. His strong arm, while flashy, really didn’t affect the outcome of a game too often.
Last point, for those of you crying about what an injustice it is to make make fun of poor widdle Jeffy and to kick him while he’s down just remember that he made $5M this season to be a black hole in the middle of the Mets lineup. I wish my downtimes could be that lucrative.
I’ll tell you what I consider to be a personal insult: when my team insists on keeping a player who for the past 3 years has been an offensive bush leaguer and has done nothing to improve his childish approach to hitting. The mets brought in two offensive pariahs and annointed them great clubhouse guys and team leaders, when the best leadership has to come from productive players who can lead by personal example as well as play. What does that say about this organization? That it has the mentality of a fourth place outfit, happy to praise perennial losers because they are good guys. We need good players here.
exactly. and what people dont appear to want to recognize is that frenchy has thousands of AB of absolute futility. he isnt just the worst regular RF in the league, but one of the worst of all time. an endless list of undertalented players like him have been called up and sent down and retired. and he keeps on playing, thats what is so absurd.
That’s because 89% of text voters think being a nice guy wins you ballgames.
Did Francoeur have a rocket arm in RF? Absolutely. But a rocket arm in RF doesn’t drive in runs.
What I love about that text poll is Omar Minaya acquired Francoeur…yet I’d bet over half of those txt’ers want Omar out of here. So which is it?
Look I’m sorry if it hurts some of our feelings but when a professional big leaguer has an OPS of .662, that’s embarrasing. You don’t get rich off trading a guy who can’t get on base more than Jerry Hairston Jr.
Did I like Francoeur? Sure. But if we ever want this team to change it’s culture… the fans gotta do the same. We gotta quit hanging on to guys because we like them, and look for guys that can perform.
I dont even know where to begin. I’ll start by admitting I was a big Francoeur fan. I have more memories of big clutch hits from Frenchy in the time he was a Met than I do of David Wright and Jose Reyes combined. Seriously, think about it. Three walk-offs last year and at least that many this season maybe even more I dont have the schedule in front of me. I know this though, four of the last six road wins he drove in the winning run, that was on SNY. But lets forget all that for a moment. Why was he so villified by the staistics community? If they are trying to build bridges to mainstream fans I give them an EPIC FAIL for how they behaved since Jeff became a Met. HUGE FAIL. Statistically speaking, the statistical fans are batting below the mendoza line. Baseball is emotionally driven anyway, a fact they refuse to acknowledge, but I do enjoy some of their analysis. But I’m so turned off by them now I can’t bare to to hear their opinions anymore. The other night they were having a great huge hate orgy on Twitter. I had to unfollow most of them just on principle alone. It was vulgar and very obnoxious. What kind of fans are these people?
again, my advice to you is to lobby the mets to sign kids from the special olympics. the effort and spirit of those kids is truly inspiring. if you dont want the special olympics kids, this makes me curious as to why you hate them so much. the game isnt about stats, liz. those kids try hard and give it everything they have, against all odds. they should be given a chance. they deserve it, more than anyone.
in fact, yunno how sometimes they have an amputee or something throw out the ceremonial first pitch? why not just leave that person in to be the real pitcher? why are we so obsess with stats? baseball is, according to you, emotionally driven. so why do we give the retarded kids such disrespect as to not allow them to play for the mets?
Apologize for going off-topic, but I just want to take a moment to say that I think Twitter is the end of civilization as we know it.
Joe–This is an awesome article. Not only well written but VERY thought provoking. Good job
I don’t hate Jeff Francoeur the human being although I did lose some respect for him based on his reactions after (briefly) losing his everyday role with the team. In them he exposed that he was not quite the “rah-rah team player” that he otherwise acted as when playing daily. But overall I found him a likable person and the kind of guy that I “wish well” wherever they go, and the farther they go away from me the more I wish them well because despite their likability they are not particularly useful or productive.
He’s just not a good, or even average, hitter and roughly 3,400 plate appearances demonstrate that to me. I have more venom in me for Oliver Perez than I ever will for Jeff Francoeur. But the key difference from my perspective is that Jeff Francoeur was actively hurting the team through his below average play whereas Perez, precisely because he never plays, was hurting the team more indirectly simply by taking up a roster spot. He was not going out there every day (or even every 5 days) and performing below average at his respective position thus hurting the team directly like Francoeur was.
Finally I don’t enjoy the comparison of Francoeur with Swoboda, Harrelson and Milner. Francoeur’s below average play was paired with many other below average performances from other players and with those combined the team finished 4th in 2009 and is looking like it will do so again. So his contributions to the team, whatever they are, when combined with other players are not adding up to anything tangibly good. Whereas Swoboda, Harrelson and Milner all have Mets World Series appearances thus making their below average performance more palatable, memorable and fondly embraced in the grand scheme.
Basically in your final point I’m hearing that if Beltran, Bay and Reyes had simply MET expectations. And the Mets would have gone to the post season and even won a world series, Francoeur would have beem more palatable and embraced by Mets fans like other below average players that have a World Series ring?
So given equal levels of suckitude a player can either be loved or hated.
I disagree. Swoboda like Francoeur was a POS. They both sucked and Kranepool was the biggest POS the Mets ever had. OBP’s like theirs should never be tolerated, ever. It was bad baseball then and it’s bad baseball now.
Fair point. While I ultimately agree that a sucky player is a sucky player and should be regarded as such, what I am saying is that I would better be able to understand 89% of polled Mets fans embrace of Francoeur had he actually contributed to some positive end results on-field, which he did not.
Fair enough, I really had a problem with those poll results when I saw them last night. I never imagined it would have been that high against trading Francoeur. I also think SNY should share how many people participated in the poll. It would explain a lot if was a couple of hundred responders as opposed to a couple of thousand.
but joe d says that those 89% of fans are giving frenchy a proper sendoff by misunderstanding his contribution to the team. joe d knows baseball is not about numbers.
I would love to see Kevin Burkhardt’s cell phone bill after that poll was completed …
How can you call yourself a Met fan and bash Kranepool? I still have fond memories of a packed Shea Stadum on it’s feet shouting EDDIE! EDDIE! You’re an idiot.
“majority of fans simply don’t over analyze and scrutinize every single at-bat and pitch the way the new internet savvy fans do” – joe
well, to be fair, the condemnation of frenchy is not based on scrutinizing every pitch, but thousands of terrible at-bats over many years.
Hey leave Ron Swoboda’s 235 average in ’69 alone. His great catches in right field during the World Series is why we have the trophy. Ah, I go to sleep at night and can still see it in my mind-it was a thing of beauty!
Terrible-I’ll give you terrible-have you ever seen Mike Hessman in a Met uniform at the plate-now that is “The Terriblist” (I made that word up because just saying terrible isn’t good enough).
Not fair to Hessman. I agree that he has not looked like much. However, he has been relegated almost exclusively to pinch hitting duty up here. He may be a career minor leaguer, but he is the highest paid of all minor leaguers and he has always been a starter in the minor leagues. I feel confident that with a similar number of at-bats this year he would have easily out-produced Francoeur. And that still might not have been good enough for him to stay in the bigs. Francoeur was not kept here because he produced enough. Only really good teams or really bad teams can keep one guy around for laughs. Which one do you think we are?
Well I must admit I have not seen Mike Hessman’s at bats as a Met, but the ones I have seen (at least five) he has not made contact with the baseball one time. His favorite pitch to swing at and miss is low and away. He whiffed real good! The Mets a Good Team? No, there the opposite of that.
Wow, a whole five at bats? Have you ever heard of sample size? How is that any different than someone saying that they saw Pujols 10 times and all 10 times he either struck out or popped out and then concluding he sucked? Kinda why numbers over a long period of time matter more than a few scattered at bats.
Lou I have since 69 said that Ronald Alan Swabodas catch was the greatest in WS history!Why? Because Ronald Alan could not catch a popup! To make such a catch…unreal!
Bottom line and none of the Francoeur supporters can deny this
Hypothetical Scenario: Winter 2010, Mets in need of a RF.
Omar Minaya announces on WFAN that they have agreed to sign a guy who last year hit .237, obp of .295, 11 hr and 58 RBI to a $5 million dollar a year contract. And supports it by saying “he tries real hard”
You all would march to Citi Field with torches in your hands.
Minor leaguers use “try real hard” as their way to get to the big leagues. Results are what keep you in the big leagues and keep you in the starting lineup.
He has a great arm. Was a great clubhouse guy apparently, but ask yourself do you want the clubhouse to be great because a .230 hitter is the only life they have or do you want a great clubhouse because its full of winners?
Remember you all want a new manager and a new GM in here… so you want change, but woah hold on… don’t change this, oh and wait don’t change that he slides good, oh and don’t move him we have to keep him.
You either want change or not.
You want change in the dugout, but you want to keep Rod Barajas, Alex Cora and Jeff Francoeur… 3 supposed “leaders” in the clubhouse.
C’mon.
“Bottom line and none of the Francoeur supporters can deny this.”
Well there aren’t any Francoeur supporters so I don’t know who you are talking to. But If you are talking to people who don’t want to kill Francoeur for not having a high OBP(like me) you are missing the point. we aren’t saying he is a good player and we aren’t saying he deserves to start. But what we are saying is that posts yesterday from Metsblog and amazin avenue went too far. All they did was bash him all day. They didn’t give you any information they just talked about how gald they were that he wasn’t on the team anymore. They didn’t even give you another point of view. very unprofessional.
and it wasn’t just yesterday people have been bashing him all year. we all agree he isn’t a good player he is really like a 4th OF like he will be in Texas. And thats what he would have been for the Mets if the OF was healthy all year. I don’t think many teams complain about their 4th OF. I think that the Rangers are going to be very happy to have a player like Francoeur on their team.
We don’t want to kill him for not having a high OBP.
We do however think that having a high OBP (and slugging percentage) is pretty key if you’re going to be a starting corner outfielder.
We’re happy, however, about the Frenchy trade because it means:
1)That we get his low OBP out of the lineup.
2)That Lucas Duda should get everyday playing time down the stretch
3)That we actually get a player back for him, instead of getting nothing back when we inevitably would non-tender him in the offseason.
jessep, you are missing my point and continue to change the subject to stats. I know Francoeur was hurting the team.
My point of this post is to express my outrage at all the venomous posts mocking him.
Can you justify that for me because I cant wrap my brain around it.
When did some fans stop becoming fans?
Maybe some should refer to themselves as supporters or followers, because a fan is a fanatic who loves his team and players as long as they give it their all. Look up the word fanatic. All Mets fanatics are supporters and followers, but not all supporters and followers are fanatics.
The poll results indicated fan voting and I’m glad that there’s still plenty of them out there.
I hope you understand where I’m coming from. It’s not about trading Francoeur, it’s about what the reaction was by many Mets fans on blogs and social media.
Joe,
When The fans kicked Armando out the town, did you feel bad? He was 10 times better than French and did 10 times more for the Mets.
Frenchy was a nice guy but was a lousy player and wasn’t so much a team player when he wasn’t in lineup.
He speaks well and has a nice face .
I think he was a bit self serving ham like kid Carter .
At least Carter could play.
When you compare the sendup kisses Armando and Frency got,I can understand the educated venoms.
if you agree that frenchy was hurting the team, then wouldnt you disagree with the fan poll? why is a poll favoring a player you say is “hurting the team” a “proper sendoff”? you are completely contradicting yourself.
So just so I am clear on the rules here… Jeff Francoeur is a below average hitter making $5million right?
He leaves, some rejoice, some make fun… whatever.
What happens if/when Luis Castillo gets cut? He’s only making $1m more than Francoeur and I have a sneaky suspension a lot of you would do the No Pants Dance if Castillo was let go.
Yet, I’d take Castillo’s 2009 overall season over Francoeur’s overall 2010 anyday.
So how come it’s okay to be disrespectful to guys like Perez and Castillo but when it comes to Francoeur… wait hold on a minute!
very true. fans care more about media perception than anything. for all i know castillo is a truly amazing fella, the nicest guy in the world, and francouer is a two-faced jerk. but i dont care. i dont put any stock in that crap. these fans do, overwhelmingly. they posted with complaints for castillo after a game winning hit, becuase they did not approve of his facial expressions.
consider what you think about players and throw it out the window, you dont know them.
Jessep, are you insane? Comparing Perez to Francoeur is ridiculous on every level, from the playing field to the clubhouse. One guy is avoided and despised and the other guy is valued as a super team guy who won a few games during the season.
And one guy is Latino, the other guy is white.
Funny how every Met who makes the all-gritty team lacks a Latino surname.
Yeah, I can’t wait for the folks on this site to go mum when it’s time to send off Luis Castillo.
I think that’s a very big stretch.
“Face of the Franchise” Wright is attacked most of all for not bring gritty.
And Johan is never criticized, even though he’s had his ups and downs.
Not to mention fans cheered Alex Cora for being “gritty”, even though he was the same talent-wise as Francoeur.
Castillo’s attitude isn’t a problem, it’s his contract fans hate.
Fans like players who either deliver or overachieve, and they like players with good attitudes. They hate players who don’t deliver to their contract, or who have annoying personalities. Not very complicated to understand.
Except that it’s not a stretch, Mex: look at Starbase’s comments featuring Mets who played the right way. Where are the Latino names? (Come to think of it, where are the African-Americans?)
And be fair: I know of no Alex Cora groupies.
I agree that Johan has not been overly criticized, but he is not beloved either.
Wright is booed by Luddites for his excessive strikeout total — not for refusing to soil the uni — never mind that his advanced stats are again impressive.
As with Jeter, most of the Frenchy “hate” is actually not directed at the player but at those who go to absurd lengths to lionize him.
what happened to you? I thought you were out celebrating the meaningful games the Mets played in May. You are laughable.
the most fascinating question here is this: does joe d understand that baseball is a game where the goal is to win? and that to win sometimes trades are made to improve the team that are not meant as a personal insult to a player? so when the pool comes out that poeple did not agree with the trade, that means that the people are neeither insulting nor complimenting frenchy personally. they are simply making a judgment about a trade. is that so hard to understand? really, are you guys idiots? it is not a “proper sendoff” to oppose a trade of a terrible player in a poll. it is simply a reacion to a trade. it isnt polite or impolite or mean or nice or a good sendoff or bad one.
in fact, if we do think it is a proper sendoff, which is an insanely stupid thnig to think, do we believe that is a rude greeting for the guy coming to the team? the fans are opposing the aquisition of the new guy. is that an improper greeting? i mean, if we are idiots and we interpret polls this way, isnt that a rude way to treat the newcomer?
Explain how we won or would have won with Ryan Church, the player Francouer replaced?
You sound like a broken record and have litteraly hijacked this thread but have added very little to the debate. My point is why was Francoeur singled out for such venomus outpourings by stat-minded Mets fans? Did he break into your homes and kill your cats or something? He’s gone, wish him well and move on. No need to go on a 24 hour hate crusade.
No kidding…martin, we get it, you don’t like Francouer.
Were you like this when Lenny Dykstra was let go?
Were you happy when Ron Darling was sent packing? (I was at Shea that day, the crowd booed when the trade was announced).
You thought the Tom Seaver trade was a good one?
dont look at me dude, joe d is the one with a post on his blog saying that a poll that reflects the public’s poor understanding of baseball is somehow a proper sendoff of a genuinely terrible player.
I have a feeling that Martin is just a teenager bored out of his mind that has nothing better to do than get people mad at him. He probably keeeps saying the same thing over and over again just to be annoying.
I think he will try anything to get people to respond to him. He knows alot of people have strong about opinions about Frenchy so thats why he keeps talking about him non stop. Another example of him trying to upset people is when he compares Francoeur to special olympics. He is just trying to anger people.
Every once and awhile you get people like Martin that like to come on here just to get everone upset. After awhile everyone will start to realize that he is just putting on a act and no one will respond to him. Then he will get bored with this and he will find something else to do.
look, if you want to get mad because we disagree about baseball, then perhaps you are the one with issues. i just want to talk about baseball, and how it works.
I knew you were going to say this. It has gotten to the point that I know what you are going to say even before you say it. This is the part when he says “lets talk about baseball not about me.”
I just want to make this clear I’m not saying this because I disagree with you I’m saying this because it’s obvious that you are just putting on an act. No one could say the same thing 100 times in one day(and the day isn’t over yet)and be serious.
thats nice.
Look at Jeesep, he hates Francoeur too and he has only made 3 comments you have made 28 comments saying the same thing.
There is no way this guy is for real. 28 comments saying the same thing and it’s only 5pm. lol
Don’t you get tired of this?
dont worry about what i am tired of. dont worry about me at all, i will be ok. perhaps joe needs assistance, he thinks a poll opposing a trade of a terrible players is good because, presumably the feelings of the millionaire player might be hurt otherwise. so lets pretend a good trade his bad, to give a millionaire a “proper sendoff”.
And I bet he lives in his mom’s basement too lolz!!!
You have a very high opinion of yourself, don’t you? Thanks for explaining to us little folks why someone you don’t know is writing things you clearly don’t understand.
As I’ve said in a few of my posts, Martin is a mostly lovable guy who masquerades as an rebellious 11 years old kid. He’s been known to go overboard when his ‘digital only’ view of baseball is found wanting. Besides the facts and figures of a Sabermetrics approach, baseball is an art form and a social experience. This is a major part of what I refer to as the analog side of the game. It is critical to, and affects, the digital records Martin values.
Martin has yet to learn to value what goes on in the clubhouse and dugout. Spending some time around a team which plays in any league or level of the game would provide that experience to folks like Martin.
So Martin, I’d suggest you stop being the pain in the derriere to which you, as an 11 years old kid, so often revert. It gets you attention but certainly not the respect of fans and former players who know both the analog and digital sides of the sport.
des, again, arguing that numbers are not relevant is exactly like arguing that the score of the game isnt relevant.
My friend Martin — it’s what the numbers don’t show that I’m alluding to. You refer basically to acts of commission. That’s part of the game. But your approach doesn’t deal with acts of omission which deal with what teams and players don’t do. I know you are struggling because you deal only with the scoreboard after decisions are made. What about decisions that are avoided and plays not made? It’s more complicated than the view you project.
yes, i understand like the times francouer avoids a hit, or avoids working the pitcher, to the detriment of the team. or the times opposing pitchers avoid met hitters because they know they have an easy out coming up in francouer.
does the scoreboard have an “analog” portion, or are the wins determined by the numerical digits?
Not a clever response, Martin. You need remedial training but that would take too long tonight and I’m not sure I want to spend the time with a resistant student.
Didn’t this one team win a world series in the 70s where the manager loathed the star player? I think that team had an awful lot of “clubhouse cancers” in it, but they won anyway because the players were good. Maybe it was just a TV show or something, i forget.
what does ryan church have to do with anything? (other than having a career OPS+ of 101, far better than frenchy). you are not listening to my point. you8 post was stupid, and if you learn to read i will explain why. frenchy is a terrible player, he hurts the team. so to favor a trade for him is good for the team. understand? by playing, he blocks the paths of young guys who are better and now, and can be lots better later. get it? so when this poll comes out, it is not as you describe, a “proper sendoff”, it is simply ignorant fans. get it?
Martin, please stop putting on a show. We all know you are putting on a act.
No. I think he just isn’t a Jeff Francoeur fanboy and can see past Frenchy’s beaming smile.
No not really. He is trying to get a reaction. He keeps changing his age every week and he just keeps the same thing over and over and over again. By the end of the day he will post 100 comments saying “Francoeur sucks” or “do you know what makes teams score runs?” The same boring thing every day. Never anything new.
The whole thing is an act he may not even be a Met fan. He could just be a yankee or Phillies fan trying upset Met fans. who knows.
Whatever. I’m not a regular here, maybe martin has some huge past history that I don’t know of. I think he was a bit harsh at points but I generally agreed with his sentiments in this thread.
Lets be honest- Will Frenchy be playing in the majors in 3 yrs? I say no simply because he has no idea how to hit. If he cut his swing in half and truly learned the srike zone maybe, but he’ll never do it.
There will always be a place on some major league team for a guy like Frenchy, in Pittsburgh or KC, or some other small market team, if he is willing to play for 1 million or so a year and will to come off the bench in a defensive roll and get a few at bats in a platoon situation. Guys like Frenchy are all over the major leagues. They wind up with a 10-12 year career and play for 8 or 9 teams along the way. And who knows he is still fairly young and could catch fire.
that is actually incorrect. players as bad as frenchy never make it the bigs, that is why he is so fascinating. he is an extreme case of personality winning over performance, as well as an indicator that some teams still do not understand how the game works and can be taken advantage of. the average player of frenchy’s skill has long ago retired and quit baseball.
Disagree. His defense keeps him in the majors if for nothing more than as a defensive replacement in close games. This is important to teams fighting for the post season. He also has over 50 rbis this season. He is not as bad as some people think. Is his bat better than Castillo-yes and a lot of other players I can name. He’ll have a big league career if he can accept his rightful fate as a major leaguer. I still say with the right hittig coach he can raise his average 20 points to 260 and that alone would keep him in the majors.
his bat is worse than castillo, plus castillo plays a harder defensive position RF defense is not tremendously important. frenchy would be borderline adequate as a middle infielder that was half of a platoon. but he has no business in a ML clubhouse as an outfielder, not with his terrible bat. corner outfielders must hit. they should be among the 3 best hitters on the team.
But you are penciling him as an everyday player-he is not but in the roll I described he can help a lot of teams.
the role you describe would always be better held by an endy chavez type. if you cant hit you might as well be superspeedy for use as a pinch runner. anwyways, a player as weak with the bat as frenchy has no real value. players must be able to hit a little bit if they are a corner outfielder without blazing speed.
I like your analysis but we’ll disagree on this one. I think Frenchy (if healthy) will still be a major leaguer five years from now.
You are the epitome of arrogance. You preach on an internet newsgroup, that’s it, you are NOT a GM. Yet, the guy has been playing in the majors for a while now. You make assumptions that have not factual basis, i.e. personality winning over performance.
While most agree, he’s not the best of best, apparently a post season bound team thought enough to take him on.
Continue your pompous posts, but that’s all they are, just posts here, not real life.
this isnt a newsgroup, grandpa.
and you aren’t a baseball god……..
presumably that means you disagree with my analysis. you are wrong, but that is your right. i would be interested to see where i am wrong. i do not suspect an argument is forthcoming.
Dude – I have no problem with Francouer being traded, I know full well how much he lacked. I also know that you come here and talk out your buttocks. You do not know everything, otherwise you would not be posting here, but would be a Major League GM.
If he is SO bad as you say, why would Texas even bother taking him on?
Martin, here’s my last post to you tonight. Stop being such a pedantic smartass. Use your brains and not just your butt.
not sure why being a pedantic smartass is bad. i am here to discuss baseball, and learn why people like you are so stuck in the past with the way they view it. it iss an interesting sociological phenomenon, you guys are easily manipulated by the media, by personalities, by traditional (incorrect) thinking. it is almost like you have a sort of proletarian attitude that you take pride in, even though you know it is wrong, because that is how you define yourself.
You are not here to DISCUSS baseball at all. You are here to pontificate. You have never had a discussion, ever. You state your opinion, pawn it off as fact, and are too ignorant to sit back and possibly actually learn something from someone else’s experience. Pity
true enough, i am not here to discuss, but to figure out why you lot are so idiotic.
I heard Texas wanted Francouer bcause Josh Hamilton has some nagging injuy problems and I think they want him for some insurance and now they can rest Hamilton for the post season. They have a comfortable 8 game lead
The guy was given the right field job outright, but Francoeur is nothing more than a super-sub…a defensive specialist.
We have a super-sub in Daniel Murphy who is cheaper.
Bottom line is Francoeur couldn’t hit.
He sucks and if he was any good, the Braves would have kept him.
You think the Braves will trade an all star caliber player to the Mets?
All Francoeur has is a golden arm.
The reason Francoeur was liked is because he is articulate while speaking with the media and was a good teammate.
Frenchy seemed more than the hired assassin that Miniya has given us over the last four/five years. He actually seemed to like being a Met, unlike Delgado, Beltran, ect.
So the Mets did good by him and sent him to a contender.
Good luck Francoeur…..I rooted for you…but you sucked bigtime at the plate.
and I have no doubt that it was Francoeur who asked Barajas to “take me with you” to L.A., as he was requesting a trade at the time.
I have no doubt that it was Castillio and Perez who told you the same.
Yeah in this world of constant blogging and posting you have those that have a venue to spew their hatred, dis-like for a player that probably was not the great hitter we saw early in the season, as Francouer stated, but was once good player who Mets tried to have change his approach at the plate and he tried it for awhile then went back to the hitter he is, an un-disciplined, no game plan type of player. You see guys like Vladimir Guerroro who is almost worst than Francouer in his approach but he had the gift of contact which Francouer did not have.
He was a nice, friendly guy but as someone posted somewhere, you can be nice and bring a different attitude to clubhouse but if wins don’t follow then it don’t matter.
Look at the Yankee team with Jackson and Martin, they won despite their personalities.
Lastly I saw a post by a writer, Lennon I think, lamenting how Francouer’s presence will be missed in clubhouse, Huh! He might be a great interview but he is not a game changer or a clutch hitter or even an everyday player so please, he is who he is and I wish him the best where ever he winds up.
I kind of feel bad for Martin. He has no life, He probably has no friends, no family and all he has his computer. His only enjoyment in life is going on a blog just to get people upset. Just a sick lonely person. It’s really kind of sad. no actually it’s sick and it’s sad. There are alot crazy people in this world and Martin is one of them.
Thanks, Doc! I can’t decide if you intend to be ironic with your post. No one could be as arrogant as you and seriously call other people out on their dickishness.
I just noticed this comment just now. I just want to clear up something. Alot of people who are new to here are going to think that I just going after martin for no reason. Not ture. Martin is just an actor just trying to upset people. The reason why I worte that comment above is because he has called EVERYONE on this site an idiot and he keeps telling everyone how stupid they are. He has the right to say what he wants and I have the right to call him out on it.
But you know what I did take this too far. I should have know better than not to come down to Martin’s level. My mistake, lets move on.
Most of the stat-head crowd has more allegiance to the concepts and theories of “sabermetrics” than they do to baseball teams, or baseball as an entertaining passtime. They like to feel superior by possessing some arcane knowledge of the game that is beyond mere slack-jawed fans.
Francoeur famously goofed on OBP, which is the equivalent to stat-heads as insulting your mother. They take metrics that seriously.
Francoeur isn’t good enough to be a starting MLB OF, but I rooted for the guy. 99% of stat-heads were rooting for him to fail, because it would prove them right.
That’s the difference.
This is an infuriating agument. Supposedly “stat-heads” have no real allegiance to teams, and yet at the same time they’re just a bunch of nerds who spend all their time running spreadsheets. Well answer me this- would somebody who is NOT passionately invested in a team or a sport spend hours looking up every arcane stat while whiling away a good chunk of his time watching a team that causes his blood pressure to increase 25% every night?
No, actually, my allegiance to the Mets makes me have a desire for them to put together a successful team.
I think the above statement applies to every single person that will read this comment, whether they cite heart, grit, and passion or OPS, WAR, and VORP in their determination of value.
Leading back to the original statement, I have a desire to see the Mets improve. Advanced metrics tell me that Jeff Francoeur was not helping the Mets. That’s if you even consider on-base percentage to be an advanced metric, which no one really does (even Ralph Kiner, a baseball old-timer if there ever was one, cited its importance in an appearance in the booth several weeks back).
Saying something like OBP isn’t absolutely crucial is silly. You can’t score runs without getting on base. You can’t win without scoring runs. Simple.
Jeff Francoeur’s numbers with the Mets last year were actually pretty solid (.311/.338/.498). I know I for sure didn’t root for him to fail, neither did anyone else that I know of. Some of us realized though, that those split-season stats may have been a bit fluky.
Well, the people who realized that turned out right. This year for the Mets, Frenchy put up a .237/.293/.369 line. Having that level of offensive production out of a starting corner outfielder does not a winning team make.
In conclusion, do whatever you want, really. If looking into numbers doesn’t help your fan experience, then don’t look into numbers. No one’s forcing you to. Just realize that completely objective ways to measure a lot of things exist, and that discounting those that choose to employ said objective measures is silly.
Stop pretending that you know so much about these folks’ inner intentions. Have you been reading their diaries? All you are doing is hurling unfounded insults. As for what you think is “the difference,” stat-heads like me were not rooting for him to fail, we just knew that he would. Call it a track record or evidence or whatever you like. We were upset because an undoubtedly terrible hitter was given the starting RF spot on our favorite team. Can you get that into your brain? Probably not. Go ahead, then. Insult me.
Okay, I haven’t read through all 100+ comments and I don’t really care to.
But here are my thoughts on Francoeur:
He’s a 4th outfielder, a terrible offensive player, but an excellent defensive one. He’s a defensive 4th outfielder that was forced to play everyday due to the Beltran and Bay injuries. He was certainly not going to be back next year.
Every offensive measure of him was horrible. However, his defensive skills (cannon arm) are impossible to calculate. There’s no way to count how many 3rd base coaches hold up runners. There’s no way to calculate how many runners consciously decide to not take the extra base. Defense matters, but it’s so darned hard to count.
However, the guy gave it his all. His all sucked, but that’s different. I study the numbers every night when I get home, but I don’t laugh because it never tells the whole story. I did not like the Church-Francoeur trade, but he won me over. I did not like him starting, but I never b*tched about it because I understood why.
I agree with Joe D., in that he was treated terribly by disciples of a certain other blog. He gets treated worse than Oliver Perez, and that’s really insane. I’m rooting for him, and he’s earned my respect. And when he comes back as a visitor to Citi, I’ll cheer him.
Also, to everyone else, please don’t confuse us level-headed stat-heads with the d*uchebag stat-heads at that other blog (and here -wink-).
Ok.
Put the sour face of Castillo on Frenchy’s face and Ollie’s interview on French’s mouth, and see how you will treat him when he comes back as a visitor.
Ye!!! you will cheer him.
Frenchy is the only one who gave it his all.Yee !!!!
He was a lousy player and wasn’t a team player when he was benched.Screaming for the trade.
Give me a break!!!!
I am the d^uchedbag stat- head in this blog and I am proud of it.
Well Mets2012 you need to read more, he did NOT scream for a trade, but came out and said he had a big problem with whomever put that in the paper because that is NOT what he said and that he WOULD do anything needed.
For a stat follower you’d think, you’d be smart enough to read ALL that is written not just the tabloid crap.
I only read his sour face when he was benched.
Sorry,I am quite busy with my life to keep up with you .
I watch the game everyday ,so I know he is a lousy player .
And I watch the after the game interviews, so I know he is a lousy ham.
Other than that, He is a nice guy, gives very good interviews and has a nice friendly face like I do.
“However, his defensive skills (cannon arm) are impossible to calculate.”
Actually, no, they’re not that difficult to calculate, and Patrick Flood has shown that his arm – the one asset in his arsenal – isn’t as impressive as you might think.
http://www.patrickfloodblog.com/2010/09/how-many-runs-did-jeff-francoeurs-arm-save.html
Hmmm, I’m having a display problem in that I can’t see the rest of the comments before my last one. Is it just me?
Did we break the site?
Oh BTW Joe, what is the record for comments in one post?
Frenchy had what most Mets players lack: HEART. Everyone loves Beltran (not me) and I don’t think he’s ever shown the amount of heart that Jeff has. While players do need more than heart to play baseball, I always loved watching him play. Again, I cannot say that for Beltran who has been forgettable since coming back.
Good luck to you, Jeff.
To me Frenchy was not only a lousy player but also a lousy actor.
He has a heart? Give me a break.
Do the players have to show their emotions,so the idiotic fans goo goo ga ga over them?
They are the professional baseball players not the actors.
Beltran has no heart? Really? Dude first of all was said to be the only one actually brought to tears over the 2007 collapse in the clubhouse, also he comes back two lost seasons in a row, going out there and playing for a team that’s way out of it.
This is while Frenchy smiled and gave good interviews.
Its a shame to think that a persons value is based on productivity, Jeff was one of my favorite’s , funny how lots of people don’t want to give hard workers a chance. The flashy , showy producers are shallow and in the end walk away leaving many dishearted, Good luck jeff, I hope u win a series for texas , thier fans are due! as for the Mets , yes ,the Milners, Swaboda’s , even Cleon Jones all had a place with the fans , that makes us different from the users across town , yes winning is the goal , its great , something we Mets do not experience often, but to see the hard workers over come and win, well that what makes it special. Somehow, going out and buying a championship makes it cheap
persons value not based on productivity, only baseball skill is based on productivity. thats what you people cant seem to realize. baseball teams need skilled players, not wonderful gentleman.
I would rather have a team of Jeffs , pulling , trying , hustling, then a team of strawberrys and mannys. Too many fans fall for the producers , I rather see the hard trying jeffs, joeys and jasons of baseball. Maybe not winners today…I’ve seen 1 championship in 40 yrs , I wanna win too , but we can’t buy it , we gotta build it , jeff should have been a piece to that, we needed him in right field for citi….maybe not everyday , maybe for half a game for defense. Defense , pitching and timely hitting will win us a WS at citi . well we gave up defense in jeff and a hard trying player
I’d actually really much prefer to see a team of Darryl Strawberrys and Manny Ramirezes than a team of Jeff Francoeurs. Of course, in a perfect world, the best players in baseball would all smile and give great interviews, but that’s just not how things are. If you tell me “pick between a Mets team that will make for some good interviews and a Mets team that will play exciting baseball and end up hoisting a championship trophy”, I’ll take the second one any day.
again, i think you should become a fan of the special olympics. they have heart.
With your incessant blabbering, you risk being neither. Take a rest for a bit, please. We know what you think.
Dude!
Value is based on productivity in the real world. If you sleep on the job the whole day, but are really nice to your boss and generally affable at company get-togethers, you’ll get canned.
its about hustle and playing hard, not sleeping , its about timely hitting too which jeff counld not do , but his hustle and defense were great, forget interviews and personality, its all about how u play the game, each at bat was a struggle, but no lack of effort , he did not give up on his at bats ( yes lots of them end bably ) he tried hard , the i seen manny and strawberry , give up on at bats , i did not see jeff do that once
I think the love for Frenchy’s heart and how he’s the only guy on the field who displays emotion is absolutely hysterical. First of all, how did all that “heart” help the Mets win games? Second, there’s another guy on the field who shows emotion – he regularly dances around and indicates that he genuinely loves the game. He also has the added benefit of being, unlike Frenchy, actually good at what he does. I am of course talking about Jose Reyes. Yet there is a very large contingent of fans, that while praising Frenchy and his heart and passion, will bitch and moan about Jose and insist that he be jettisoned from the team.
Jeff Francoeur sucks at baseball. I don’t care that he’s a nice guy. I want the team to win games. I could care less if they’re comprised of a bunch of guys that would be cool to hang out in a a bar with.
I have one more thought about this , I’m not even sure if any reads this….ingrained (sp ) in a true Mets fan is the “loveable loser” . The teams from 63-68 , Mets fans were happy just to have NL baseball in NY….seeing the team win it all in 69 was “the” moment in sports…We stick by our team, and players. They say the Mets are unlike any other franchise because we take a large stock in our players and prospects that no one else seems to think has such a high value. Its the loveable loser part and i think thats special , no i don’t like the losing part , but all true Mets fans wants Jose Reyes to be a Jeter like player, Wright…. a brooks robinson even if they are not , we can only try and pull for them to be one, we hope one day we will have our moment , sticking with these players who have our hearts and that makes us different if not better then most fans who want the win now
Corrected
I have one more thought about this , I’m not even sure if any reads this….ingrained (sp ) in a true Mets fan is the “loveable loser” . The teams from 62-68 , Mets fans were happy just to have NL baseball in NY….seeing the team win it all in 69 was “the” moment in sports…We stick by our team, and players. They say the Mets are unlike any other franchise because we take a large stock in our players and prospects that no one else seems to think has such a high value. Its the loveable loser part and i think thats special , no i don’t like the losing part , but all true Mets fans wants Jose Reyes to be a Jeter like player, Wright…. a brooks robinson even if they are not , we can only try and pull for them to be one, we hope one day we will have our moment , sticking with these players who have our hearts and that makes us different if not better then most fans who want the win now
Well said Joe! I didn’t see all the negativity and frankly I’m glad I didn’t. I’m was glad to see someone wrote something positive. It hurt when I saw they gave arias the #12-no class.
No Class? Did you think the number was going to be retired? What is that?
they could have waited is all I’m saying wiseguy!
It is no class , did even let the seat get cold before jumping into it, Arias, maybe someday a player something, but seems more like a player to be named later type , jeff has a future , better a better batting coach would have helped him with pitch recognition, however we will miss his defense in right!
Also I will wear my newly bought Francoeur tee proudly!
tee like in tee-back???
as in t-shirt.
Well I could have been
)))
Just wanted to point out that Francoeur was traded for Ryan Church, who played on 3 diferent teams during the time Jeff was a Met
And the Braves were smart enough to let Church go after last season and now reside in first place. What was our excuse?
The results of the poll tell the story….Met fans felt that Jeff Francouer should not have been traded for the guy they received. Had they gotten a player of more stature the trade would have been easier to swallow but the truth is that management traded Jeff not just because he didn’t hit enough but because it solved the problem of next year’s dilemna. Management has to assume that Jason Bay will return healthy and be more of the hitter they expected when they signed him. Carlos Beltran will get the chance to prove that he is still a stud player in center field and Angel Pagan who should get our team MVP this season will play right field. Those three players make up a strong outfield if things pan out as they should. Personally, I hated to see Frenchy go because his attitude and presence will be missed. Defensively, he was great but too many streaks of looking lost at the plate cost him his starting job and ultimately his place on the team. I hope that Jeff has a strong finish for Texas and gets the game winning hit for the Rangers against the Yankees in the ALCS series.
This is hilarious. DCMetsFan put it best saying he wants good baseball players, not guys that are fun to have a beer with. Essentially we want to win. And after a year and a half of MetsMerized, John Kruk, Joe Morgan, the NY Media, Murray Chass and the rest of the MSM giving Frenchy a proverbial hand-job, we the “nerd community” can finally rejoice that the worst RF in baseball is no longer on our favorite team. I’d rather go to the bar with Bush and maybe roll out the white carpet with the guy, doesn’t mean I want him running my country. Joe, your post wasn’t AS aggressive towards the stats community (Mostly Amazin Avenue, you just love to make fun of us for doing stuff like educating ourselves) as it sometimes can be, but it still just sounds like another Kevin Burkhardt rant. I won’t go through the archives right now, but I really wanna see this sites reaction to the Frenchy and Cora signings. As Burkhardt said it won’t effect the teams payroll at all. Lo and Behold we are still not signing any over-slot picksand always in the bottom half of spending in the draft. I am sure that 7.5 million could have gone to something better than the Cora/Frenchy combo of sub 680 OPS’ and the Frown/Smile respectively. Maybe that money could have been put into a pot for… Aroldis Chapman? Maybe signing over-slot draft picks? This is why I personally HATE our GM and owners. They much like many of you believe this personality in the clubhouse helps win ballgames. Kobe and Shaq never really liked each other. Kobe punched Samaki Walker in practice and they went to the finals. Everybody HATED Jordan, but they respected him because he was good. Billy Martin and Reggie Jackson have already been mentioned. Brett freaking Myers played a major role in the Phillies winning the Division in 08 after showing up to ST with his kid wearing a confederate flag, and beating his wife down in public. I am sorry, the nice guy, or good clubhouse presence can be reserved for an actual decent player. They do exist, we don’t need to pay 5.5 million to have a crappy one give us 400 PA’s and take away time from younger, cheaper and better players.
of course all that is true. what vexes me is why people are so resentful of people who understand the game better. why does joe d make a blog post that i scompletely ludicrous because he resists understanding the game properly. clearly a poll that shows people favor francouer is not good, it just shows that people are ignorant. but joe is happy about the poll, he revels in his own foolishness.
yeah, arias, what a great fielder, can’t catch a slow roller. awsome bat too, got lucky the braves ss has his head up his ass too. awesome power, no hrs, ever! could have got a better player.
For all intents and purposes, we traded Jeff Francoeur for less expensive, more versatile Jeff Francoeur.
Arias isn’t a juggernaut at all, but small victories.
Who could they have gotten for Jeff Francoeur? Please explain to me what value he had on the market.
[...] Although I strongly disagree with that portion of the fanbase, I thought it’d be worth giving this post’s defense of those fans to try to see the way the other side [...]
[...] Pope, Muslims building a community center in Manhattan, the NYC Transit System and your In-Laws but you can’t criticize Jeff Francoeur and his inability to hit a baseball with any authority or the fact that his nice smile and balls to [...]
I thought I should chime in:
As others have touched upon, if fans had said they approved of the trade, would that be considered an improper sendoff? What if the same poll is done midseason next year if we trade Luis Castillo somewhere? Does he deserve the same “proper sendoff” in your eyes?
I was happy about the Jeff Francoeur trade for reasons I touched upon earlier in the thread. He’s bad, it clears up time for Duda, and we actually get a player in return for a guy we would’ve just non-tendered in the offseason.
I consider myself to be somewhat well-versed in advanced statistics, though I’m not really the type that gets into the insanely obscure ones (I don’t follow up with the newer, better version of the earned run average stat that someone always tends to put out every year- DICE, TRA, etc.- I’m fine with just ERA, ERA+, and sometimes FIP). I do think though that they are pretty helpful in determining the value of a player, and frankly in Jeff Francoeur’s case we don’t even need them. Easy, common stats like OBP and SLG do the trick, showing clear flaws in his game.
I do not entirely discount the idea of a “clubhouse presence”. I feel though that winning will breed a good clubhouse, not the other way around. So, bring in a veteran who’s still got some pop in his bat? Fine. I’m cool with that. Don’t stock the clubhouse with useless character guys (Barajas, Cora, Frenchy, etc) and then complain when we don’t win though. When it comes down to it, we don’t get bonus wins if we have players that tell really funny jokes on the bench or players that really try hard. Our main goal needs to be to improve on the field.
Also, as an aside, I take some offense to statements several people have made saying that so-called “statheads” don’t have an allegiance to the team (or whatever it was). I’m 15. I’ve been following the Mets since 2005. Last year I watched 150 or so games, and this year I’m on pace for a similar total. At parties, I’m often seen with phone in hand, checking the score of the Mets game. Telling me and others that we’re not passionate because we like to delve into the sport more analytically is ridiculous.
I hope the Mets finish 5 games over .500. The crappy, lifeless team can actually be successful without a black hole in RF.
Please make it so.
I hate all that Jeff Francoeur represents and it’s largely because of people like Joe D. and the 89% of respondents to that SNY text poll. He’s an awful player praised for shit that, frankly, nobody in this comments section knows a damn thing about. When folks try to reason objectively, it’s met with an endless series of donkey kicks about a “great arm” and “a good clubhouse guy.” When he demands two trades, those same donkeys say, “Well all he wants to do is play. You can’t blame him for that!” (I wonder how Jose Reyes would’ve been received after pulling such a stunt.) All the while, he made five million dollars to hit .237 and slug well under .400.
Eff Francoeur. I hope his career is very close to over. I hope he never succeeds anywhere in baseball. This over-privileged, moronic child has received way too many chances. He better be saving that five million.
joe d does not agree with the poll, he says he favored the trade. he is opposed to the majority of fans. i think joe is one of the “new fangled fans”
“i understand that Francoeur wasn’t meeting the minimum expectations of these new-fangled baseball fans” – joe d
i think joe, becuase he is able to understand that the trade was good, is also one of the new fangled fans he is opposed to. self hate is sad.
what a jerk
You need to take a chill pill or something. You’re telling me that you hate a player because of the opinions others have of that player? Is that right?
So the concept that there are Mets fans who actually support every player in a Mets uniform is so malignant to you that you immediately hate that player if he fails to live up to your expectations?
Sorry, I disagree with you there. I didn’t know I wielded such power that I can make someone hate another baseball player simply because I like or defended them.
And then you go on and try to suppose or predict or hypothesize how fans will react if Jose Reyes was in the same position? Really? How can you engage in judging people for something they have not done yet? That’s some ego trip you’re on.
Finally, to wish misfortune on any baseball player because you don’t like him? Even a home team player? Well I don’t know how to compute that really, because I don’t know how to hate baseball players to that extreme.
I mean I hate Chipper Jones and Pat Burrell as a Mets fan and from a gamesmanship point of view, but I would never wish harm or misfortune on them, let alone a player who actually wears the orange and blue.
Just as you find it inconceivable that someone could defend Jeff Francoeur, I find it a thousand times more inconceivable for someone to possess that kind of hatred of any player who plays for the team he claims to be a fan of.
Anyway, to each his own. Have a great Labor Day weekend.
I bemoaned the day the Mets got Francoeur, but you take it to another level. Step away from the ledge.
Thank you for saying what was in the hearts of my Mother and myself. I’ve seen the analysis that Francoeur’s arm did not make up for his bat, but that wasn’t the way it FELT. He made us feel the way Rey Ordonez did, except that he tried harder.
Was he terrible? Maybe, but you’ve got to compare him to the alternatives (Carter, Captain Kirk) rather than to the other major league right fielders. Why? Because there was vanishingly little chance that any of those other major league right fielders would be replacing him… and they didn’t.
Yes, Frenchie WILL be missed by ‘real’ Met fans, and Mom and I are sorry we missed the chance to vote in the poll.
Is this a joke post?
I hate Francoeur! I hate everything about him. He is a black hole that sucks the life out of a team. I hope the Rangers collapse and choke!!! I’ll be laughing my ass off!