24
2012
Revamping The Bullpen Has Been A Futile Endeavor For This Front Office
An article by 
R.A. Dickey finally picked up his 19th win of the season on Saturday after three previous tries. Barely…
After tossing eight shutout innings, Dickey walked the first batter he faced in the ninth followed by a double by Donovan Solano to put runners on second and third with nobody out.
Terry Collins came out of the dugout and called for his right-hander Jon Rauch to relieve Dickey. But literally seconds after Collins got back into the dugout, BANG… Rauch serves up a three-run homer to John Buck, the first batter he faces. Rauch got the save by the skin of his teeth, and Dickey got charged with two earned runs. His 2.66 ERA lead in the NL is now narrowed to four-hundredths of a percentage point ahead of Clayton Kershaw who’s at 2.70. It could have gone down to a 2.61 ERA had Rauch kept those runs from coming home in this game of inches and percentage points.
This comes three days after Matt Harvey had a brilliant performance and a win denied in his season finale against the Phillies, when weary-armed Josh Edgin allowed a game winning two-run homer to Ryan Howard. It was after that game that the Mets decided there may be something to this tired arm of his and announced Edgin would be making just one more appearance before being shutdown for the season. That last appearance was a disaster as well.
You could write a book about the myriad of bullpen disasters and implosions this season. There’s been just so many games we could have won and should have won that could have made this season so much more enjoyable and even satisfying. It’s a damned shame.
Remember how bad we all thought the bullpen was in 2010? Who could have ever thought we’d look back at that season as the good old days for our bullpen. Check it out…
Never mind the fact that the Mets have had the worst bullpen ERA in the Major Leagues since the first week of the season. What really boggles my mind is that they performed this atrocity while playing half of their games in one of the most extreme pitching parks in the game and without having to pitch to a designated hitter for all but nine games this season.
I tried to go back as far as I could to find a Mets bullpen that was ever this bad, but the ESPN Stat Tracker only went back as far as the 2000 season, 12 years ago. This is the absolute worst season by a Mets bullpen in that span and by a significant margin at that.
If you want to pinpoint the day it all began to go down hill, like it or not it was when we traded Frankie Rodriguez. Everybody loved the trade because it saved Fred Wilpon a potential $17.5 million dollar payout in 2012 and he really needed the money to help him maintain his grip on the team.
But the truth of the matter is that the trade had no real benefit at all to the Mets themselves because the money was never reinvested, the bullpen fell apart once Izzy and Parnell were shifted to significant roles, and the players we got in return will probably be playing for the Croatian National Baseball Team in 2013.
From a baseball standpoint there was no gain for the Mets unless you consider helping the Wilpon’s stave off bankruptcy a gain…
And even though K-Rod never took to the setup man job in Milwaukee and has been awful in that role since the Mets ousted him, is there anyone among us who wouldn’t take his 84% save rate while with the Mets over the 59% save rate since he was purged from our bullpen?
Is there anyone who wouldn’t take K-Rod’s 1.280 WHIP and 10.1 K/9 with the Mets over Frank Francisco’s 5.56 ERA, 1.606 WHIP now?
As a historical matter of record, that messy divorce between K-Rod and the Mets actually “broke what was fixed” instead of “fixed what was broke”. On that day it all fell apart and even Sandy Alderson took the Mea Culpa and said he never expected K-Rod’s loss to have the negative impact it ultimately did.
On a light note, there was one interesting thing that did come out of that trade for the team… Daniel Herrera did manage to set a new franchise record in his “short” stint with the team in 2011. He became the most diminutive player (5’6″) ever to play for the New York Mets, a “small” record that may never be broken. So there’s that…
But seriously, this offseason will be Sandy AIderson’s third attempt at revamping the bullpen. Send him your prayers and well wishes.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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After that incident when he attacked his father in law I didnt want Krod on this team anymore. I know we have suffered from it statistically and from an overall performance standpoint, but you cant put a price on dignity and Krod certainly did have any. We dont need people like that on the team.
You have got to be kidding me… Did you KNOW THE INCIDENT involving Frank Francisco? You know, the closer SANDY ALDERSON SIGNED????
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1881073
The Double standard needs to stop at some point. before condemning Krod for being a bad guy and saying we don’t need people like him in the clubhouse, please remember what francisco DID while on the field in front of TOUSANDS present without any regard for the health of the fans. yeah, closers like him are needed…
Shhh! Quiet Alex, you dont want to bring up FF’s bad behavior, he was a Sandy signing. Be careful.
Alex68 — Even ‘good’ people do bad things. ‘Bad’ people do more bad things. Overall K-Rod and Frank Francisco may be good or may be bad, I don’t really know. Too often our news is filtered by the motives of sportswriters who may be looking for headlines. We can’t apply a Morality Litmus Test to every player in baseball and Sandy and Omar are good people who should be left out of the analysis.
What???? What exactly were you getting at?
Hi Lisa,
If we don’t need people like that, then we must include Frank Francisco who threw a chair at the fans and injured two of them. Both were reprehensible.
Send him your prayers and well wishes. Wouldn’t it be easier to send them packing instead?
It was never about getting rid of KRod the pitcher. It was about getting rid of that 17 MIL vesting option. That’s why the money was never reinvested.
Had we kept him and that option vested, I can’t imagine where that 17 MIL was coming from.
And in this particular case I’m glad he wasn’t here for the chance for that option to vest. No way is he worth 17 MIL a year anymore.
Option was never gonna vest and everyone knew it but Sandy. K-Rod didnt even want that option. He fired his agent for not getting it removed and a two year extension reworked. Big failure of communication by Sandy who never even inquired. But he did his job for Freddie and it had nothing to do with making the team better. He got a box of Beggin Strips in return for the team and a big fat bonus at the end of our losing season from Freddie too.
Actually he fired his agent because he forgot to turn in his no-trade list and thus Krod was traded to a place where he couldn’t even close and destroyed his market value.
Bingo.
Who cares? Get your heads out of 2011 and look at what’s happening now!
Take it up with Joe D. He included KRod and that trade in his post. I think it’s fair to assume he expected some comments on that.
WRONG!
And you know it is because his NEW agent forgot to send the list as well!
He fired his Agent because he WANTED TO GET RID OF the Option to REMAIN A CLOSER and his agent played games instead!
SO he hired Boras on short notice and in the chaos of all that Sandy decided to trade him for Dog Bowl scraps!
And I would ask both of you, now that the 17 Mil is gone how has the team benefitted from that? Not the Wilpons just the team?
Metsie — If the Wilpons don’t make a lot of money, the Mets will be under water indefinately. Let’s not make it more complicated than that. There is not a firewall between them.
Why are the WIlpons not making money Des?
Because we paid players too much? We had a 140+ Mil salary in 2009 and didn’t lose a penny!
If you guys really want Wilpon gone then why do you support the GM who is helping him to stay and making decisions based on how can the Wilpons keep this team as opposed to how can we make this team a winner?
Put it this way it wasn’t Wilpon who told Sandy that Pagan was worth the two stiffs he got and that deal didn’t save us a penny so whats the excuse there?
Funny, but isn’t srt the one who keeps crying about the Wilpons (so do I), so why would you support that deal unless your agenda for Sandy outweighs your disdain for Wilpon?
You lost me.
I’m going to guess he hit the wrong reply button when he made that post…LOL
I’m going to assume that was meant for someone else….
But to run with that notion….
IF the Wilpons are the problem here why are these folks supporting the guy who has made moves based on saving them instead of moves that would save the team and make it competitive?
That option was easily vesting the way Collins was using him. Closing out a bunch of non save situations and even games they were trailing on the road to finish the bottom of the 8th inning and still get credit for a game finished. He had 34 GF in half a season and only needed 21 more. I guess everyone knew it was gonna vest except you.
Yup, there was no way that a team bleeding money with no cash to spare could afford to pay Krod 17.5M. The deal itself for Omar wasn’t bad. It was signed under the premise that the Mets weren’t broke and broken.
Broke and broken…..very apropos.
Yep, and as we saw, those $17.5 million we saved on him, plus on reyes leaving and beltran’s trade were wel invested… Kudos to sandy alderson right?
Alex, if I actually knew 100% that Sandy was the reason we didn’t spend the money and not the Wilpons then it would be a different story. However, looking at the facts that have transpired, starting with the tail end of Omar, I am taking the position that the money has been cut off from up above, not next step below.
“taking the position that the money has been cut off from up above”
Well thats a pretty Myopic thought isn’t it?
Money has been cut off from BELOW!
The revenue have not paid the bills and instead of fixing revenue which would allow him to spend he decided to cut bills which hurt the revenue even further!
This.
One can’t look at this in a vacuum.
- Wilpons fired Omar before his contract was up.
- Wilpons ‘hired’ SA, with full support of Selig.
- Wilpons got a 25 MIL loan from MLB and were allowed to let the 12 month repayment date slide.
- Wilpons took out a 40 MIL bridge loan to tied them over until the minority investors were in place. This after the earlier swore they would not be selling the team or any part of the team.
Payroll was historically slashed some 50 MIL for the 2012 season.
All you have to do is connect the dots because all roads lead back to the Wilpons.
Every penny saved from Krod’s trade to the slashing of payroll went to paying the Mets operating expenses from the payroll to loans due. That’s why no ‘savings’ from the Krod trade was re-invested back into the team – unless you count paying down debt as re-investing. No one will ever make me believe that the Wilpons told Sandy to spend money and he said ‘no thanks’.
Point is/was, a lot of people celebrated that move because they thought that money was gonna be well invested, turns out we spent exactly that whole $17.5 million into garbage while we were promised a season in which we were gonna compete, not punt.. turns out not only we punted, but we allowed a punt return for a TD..
Is it fair to say that if said owners can not afford to reinvest monies into the team, then they’re not good for the team? I think so.
I believe the pendulum has swung on payroll. People love to talk about how a big payroll doesn’t guarantee success and you have to build from within. That’s true. But here’s the thing, a big payroll sure helps. The Mets might have $15MM to spend this winter, tell me $30MM wouldn’t help your outlook for this team. Yes they have to spend wisely, but having to spend is a start.
Also, I’m tired of this Wilpons are broke. Really, I’m supposed to feel sorry for billionaires being “broke”? Sorry. If they can’t afford to properly invest in a franchise in NYC, then do the right thing and step away.
P.S. I’ve yet to have someone explain how other MLB teams are getting record profits from third party cable companies and we own our own network in NYC and can’t have that money generated be invested into our team?
The reason it was not re-invested was because it didn’t really SAVE a penny Hank.
It didn’t allow us to keep money all it did was attempt to reduce the amount of losses at the end of THIS year…which currently stands to be losing 23 Mil despite cutting 55 Mil of Payroll.
There was no savings and what little people think we got was offset by loss of attendance!
Hi Metsie,
Of course. Whatever operating expense that was saved went to pay off some of the debt. None of it was vested into long-term planning other than the Wilpons retaining control of the club.
If they were broke, they would have sold the team. As you said, they are not broke. They are in a financial situation faced by owners of many a business – that they have to downsize, accept losses and wait it out till the business and/or the industry bounces back.
Am sure they are counting on SNY down the road but if the situation gets so bad that they have to sell the team, there won’t be any buyers if Fred insists on keeping SNY off the table as he has.
He isn’t really insisting that SNY is off the table. He is just choosing not to include it in the investment part of the team and really why would he? He’s not going to sell off his shares to SNY because I don’t think he has as much of a majority ownership there.
No Joey…None of that money everyone calls “SAVED” paid a damn thing!
It wasn’t money SAVED just money NOT SPENT!
Thats all!
And TRS keeps insisting that SNY should be included despite the fact it is a seperate company owned also by Time Warner and Comcast who has no interest in using thier profit to help pay to fix the team’s attendance issues!
It won’t be in thier interest to do so until such time as thier RATINGS (TV Attendance) starts to suffer and in actuality that has probably gone up as more people Boycott the stadium in favor of thier living room!
Also Joey, if you notice you brought up SNY. It is a separate company owned as follows:
New York Mets (65%)
Time Warner Cable (27%)
NBCUniversal (8%)[1]
Hi Metsie and Tr,
I think it is a combination of the points all three of us make. The Mets are the money maker generating profit for SNY and without at least a piece of that action, it is going to be very hard to find buyers if it came down to that. The fact is they found very few interested in that total 20 percent package and had to dip into SNY to get that.
But of course, they also need the approval of Comcast and Time Warner to go ahead with doing something regarding their shares of SNY so their flexibility is indeed restricted but don’t they also have dividends from SNY (which they took out a loan in order to produce them to begin with) in which they can do with as they please?
Joey here is what I want you to try as an experiment….
Go buy Verizon Stock and then go buy stock in a company that uses verizon!
Then call up Verizon and ask them to pay some of that companies Bills since that company is part of what drives thier profits!
Or go and ask that second company to pay some of verizon’s bill since they need Verizon to function and see just how far you get!
Just because you own stock in two seperate companies doesn’t mean you can share the money between the two companies you own!
Hi Metsie,
I was thinking more in terms of the dividends that SNY took out a loan for – isn’t that straight Wilpon money that could be used in whatever way they see fit?
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2010/07/20100726/This-Weeks-News/$450M-SNY-Loan-Includes-Investor-Dividend.aspx
Do the Math…
450 Divided by 2 (Amount to be dividends)
250 total divided by half (because they only own half)
125 Mil total!
In a year they lost 50 Mil!
And again WHY should the Wilpons put THIER money into the Mets?
A point seemingly lost on anyone who blames the Wilpons for not letting Sandy spend money he hasn’t made because he hasn’t fixed the REAL problem (Attendance) yet!
Joe, considering that WHIP is superior to ERA when evaluating a bullpen’s performance, and you used WHIP to compare K-Rod and Frank Francisco, I wonder why it wasn’t used for your graphic. Probably wouldn’t have changed the overall conclusions you drew, but it might have been a better parameter.
P.S.: I liked the Daniel Herrera small story. The guy is really likeable. Here is an Herrera story from ESPN:
“The best one was last year,” he said. “I was at [Triple-A] Louisville. One of our catchers, Albert Colina, who is a really big guy, picked me up and put me in his lap as he sat in the bullpen. Then he stuck his arm inside my jacket, and up my back. He wouldn’t let me go. I thought, ‘What is he doing?’ Then, whenever I would talk, he would move his lips. Everyone was cracking up. He was the ventriloquist, and I was puppet. That was the best one.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=kurkjian_tim&id=4251819
That’s the date it all went downhill for us agreed. Lets not argue over K-Rod though, instead lets shed light on the incompetent front office who have rendered our bullpen the worst in baseball two years running. Some accountability would be refreshing from them. Some positive results would be even better. We know when the problem began and we know things have only gotten worse. Numbers don’t lie.
BLAME THE WILPONS
Exactly, nobody cares about K-Rod. This front office has sucked ass with their annual bullpen rebuilds. They gave a guy who had more career blown saves than saves $12 million? Rauch coming off a career worst season $3.5 million? Trading a solid centerfielder for a ROOGY at $2 million? All terrible moves!!!
What is the most disturbing thing about our Bullpen is that for TWO SEASONS in a row it has been what this front office FOCUSED on!
I mean it was priority NUMBER ONE and they still managed to make it worse not better!
I will not pray for them I will simply give them some advice…
When you FOCUS this year and come up with your list of targets, go get the guys you like the LEAST you might actually succeed then!
It is time to rethink the way we use relievers. 10 pitchers in one game WTF… Sure it was a blowout, but let people pitch more than one inning. How often do we use 4 and 5 pitchers in a game? We wear out the relievers in the bullpen. Edgin 73 GAMES? Byrdak. Feliciano. How about trying some old time 3 inning saves.
need a new manager to fix that problem.
I cant believe we’re locked into Francisco for next season. Plus Parnell is up for a big raise.
It still comes down to Bill James.
We all agree Bill James brings forth to the public the ultimate explanation between success and failure based on statistical evidence. It might have provided a more precise source of information for general managers to look for but it certainly DID NOT provide them a new way of looking at the game – for James’ writings only proved what he already knew from his own vast baseball knowledge.
But could it then work for those who are quick to adept to understanding James with the analytical ability that none of us argue Sandy has? Continuing with specific debate about Sandy coming in cold and relying on saber analysis for putting together teams and on field strategies, also remember that Bill James cautioned against placing too much emphasis on what his stats and formulas reveal and too little on things that stats could not reveal. Keep that in mind when we look at Sandy’s record in Oakland.
On the assumption that Sandy was indeed in charge of personnel decisions from the beginning despite coming in cold remember that he credits Bill Rigney as being involved in every player decision and that working with him was an education. Thus there is the acknowledgement of at least the two working together and the marriage of the analyst and the baseball man.
Then look what happened to Oakland beginning in 1991 when Rigney retired and Sandy lost that baseball man in terms of going ahead and making the transition from older players to younger ones while Oakland was still good enough to win the division the following year. Bad draft picks, bad trades and bad free agent signings when he still had financial resources to work with. Oakland became a mess. As James said, one cannot downplay an appreciation of the game beyond the stats.
Thus, assuming Sandy was in charge from the begnning, he lost that baseball man that, in the least, was his partner in evert player decision. Without such partner, his reliance on saber analysis and hiring those who believe in that methodology hasn’t worked.
That’s why trying to revamp this bullpen has been a futile effort for this front office, along with all it’s other moves. Get baseball men to run the show and leave Sandy to handling the financial and legal matters – then let the ownership make the call about the payroll ceiling between what Sandy says and what the baseball person contemplates. Then keep Sandy out of it.
Sorry. I dont know you. I dont often leave comments. But I come here many times a day for the posts and the comments. I just want to say that I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here and what it has to do with the Mets needing to revamp the bullpen. If there was anyway you could give me my five minutes of time wasted back, I would gladly appreciate it.
Hi Chris,
It is trying to understand the General Manager, his line of thinking and abilities to make player assessments. By trying to understand this we can get an idea of how his mind thinks and his skill, or lack of skill, played a part in how the bullpen was put together each of the past two seasons. One can only get to this point by going back to his days with Oakland when his career in major league baseball began and seeing how his methodology developed and how much of it was counterbalanced by one not relying on sabermetric analysis since Sandy is commonly referrred to as the “grandfather of sabermetrics” who revoluntionized the game with thinking “outside the box”.
I could have simply said Sandy Alderson does not have the ability to be a general manager but this type of backup explains why I think he isn’t. At most, he is only half a general manager and with the Mets has surrounded himself with two others in tune with his way of looking at things.
Welcome to the club Chris.
Oi, Denzel Washington and Chris Pine couldn’t save this train wreck.
Bill Rigney retired in 2001 not 1991. Wrong year, wrong decade, wrong millenium. You really need to stop with your Sandy/Rigney/Oakland obsession. It’s getting creepy.
I honestly believe that the KRod situation was done the day he got arrested at Citi Field. I think he embarrassed the Mets and the Wilpon’s. Don’t forget they went to the union and tried to void his contract. They were so mad they actually almost went to court over this.
Anybody who tries to tell me KRod would have waived the option to stay in NY is just kidding themselves. The guy thought he had all the power and when he woke up to find he was traded to the Brewers, he fired his agent because he thought that couldn’t happen.
He then rolled the dice and assumed somebody would give him a contract to be their closer, and guess what happened? Nothing. He was forced to walk back to Milwaukee, tail between his legs and accept an arbitration contract.
Nobody wanted him for what he wanted, what does that say to you?
When you have hindsight its a wonderful thing. Francisco was terrible this year. But that doesn’t mean you should pay an average closer more money than almost every player on your team. You also cannot ignore being faced with a $1b lawsuit in the winter of 2011 when the Mets were in the market for a closer.
They didn’t choose to not spend enough $ on a closer, they just didn’t choose wisely. Rauch+Francisco’s salary could have gotten them some great arms. It didn’t. Things happen, especially when building a bullpen.
If you want a great example of how building a bullpen is the most unpredictable piece of running a team here is all you need to know
30 Games, 1.91 ERA, 28.1IP, 25H, 24K, 10BB, 1.23 WHIP
Oliver Perez, 2012 with Seattle. Swap those numbers with say Josh Edgin’s 34 games.
If I asked you to trade those 2 though I’d be insane.
More assumptions than the average Horoscope!
K-Rod was on record that he was willing to give up the option…Fired his Agent because he was playing games when he talked to Sandy about it….
K-Rod wanted to be a closer and he knew a trade was going to remove that!
You can ASSUME all you want but those are the facts!
“K-Rod was on record that he was willing to give up the option”
Ya, he told everyone but the guy in charge of negotiating deals. Someone should have let Rodriguez know where the GM’s office was.
“Fired his Agent because he was playing games when he talked to Sandy about it”
Was that the day after never?
“You can ASSUME all you want but those are the facts!”
Oh sweet sweet irony. If you were just a little smarter, we could call you a hypocrite for that statement, but I know you don’t see the problem with it.
He did he told his agent to go get it done….The Agent played games and got himself fired!
Or are you trying your usual lying tactic and claiming K-Rod did not fire his agent the month before the trade and hire Boras?
Well Chew on this for a little while before you make your next response…
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/francisco-rodriguez-hires-scott-boras.html
Hi Donal,
Alderson was aware that KRod was willing to drop his vesting option in return for a longer multi year contact which, of course, would have meant more money for him but also that the Mets would not have the burden of having to pay $17 million in one chunk on top of his salary. Alderson was not interested. He didn’t waive it just to be traded for he said he wanted to stay a Met (yes, I know everyone gives their team that lip service, however, if the price is right, they will stay)
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/01/sports/baseball/behind-scenes-of-a-trade-that-sent-mets-francisco-rodriguez-to-milwaukee.html?_r=0
To the two guys with the blue names. Sandy Alderson already said it was a mistake and took responsibility for it. What’s the big deal?
The big deal is they are EVP and VP in charge of Teflon Polish and if any tarnish is seen they look silly!
NBC Sports
“Last summer there was some hubbub when Francisco Rodriguez fired his agents, Paul Kinzer and Arn Tellem, replacing them with Scott Boras. Soon after that he was traded from the Mets to the Brewers.
The reason for the hubbub? Boras said that Kinzer and Tellem didn’t properly file the paperwork to activate a no-trade clause K-Rod negotiated for and that the no-trade clause would have included the Brewers on it.”
Not good enough?
How about KRod’s lawyer Richard Johnson
“They did something atrocious. Their arrogance makes this so evil. It’s like rear-ending somebody but instead of stopping your car and trading insurance information they blew up the car and ran away. They committed negligence and turned it into a fraud case … He’s going to lose a lot of money; the question is whether it’s seven figures or eight figures. There’s long-term damage to his career. He wasn’t even in position to be marketed as a closer last winter. They really (messed) with his career in a monumental way.”
The alleged damage is that by being unable to veto a trade to Milwaukee like he thought he’d be able to, K-Rod lost out on showcasing himself as a closer late last year and thus was unable to make bank this winter as a free agent. Instead he accepted arbitration and will remain, presumably as a setup man, with the Brewers.
____________
Stop acting like you know the story simply because you’re trying to find any possible way to argue. KRod fired his agent for the reason he and his lawyer looked into suing them… because KRod thought his contract said something different than it really did.
Oh and here’s another little nugget for you from USAToday from KRod’s LAWYER
If Rodriguez had been aware a no-trade provision was never filed during his career, Johnson said, he would have been more amenable to signing an extension with the Mets. Rodriguez thought he had leverage, Johnson said, that didn’t exist.
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/20/k-rod-may-sue-his-old-agents/
How’s that for a horoscope?
Now that’s what I call proof!
No but here is some proof for you…
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/08/back-story-on-k-rod-option-beato-and-parnell-have-struggled.html
“Rodriguez told Collins during their discussion that he wanted to get rid of the option, so any decisions on how the Mets used him would be related strictly to baseball.
Waldstein said that Collins referred Rodriguez to Sandy Alderson, but that a deal could not be worked out, but Alderson told other teams that Rodriguez would be willing to forgo the option, making it much easier for the Mets to trade him.”
So he DID speak to Alderson and all he did with that info was use it to sell K-Rod to other teams and STILL got Squat for him!
Can’t wait to see How that is twisted.
Poof goes your crap about K-Rod having more leverage with us doesn’t it?
Thats not why he got fired…Thats the grounds they are using to Sue his old Agent.
They hadn’t realized that until it wasn’t properly filed AFTER Boras took over!
Noce try though…Your wrong again and I know you will argue it until your blue in the face but the reason K-Rod fired his guy is because he didn’t do what K-Rod told him to do which was to get rid of the option so he could remain a Closer!
why can’t you just for once admit you dont know everything?
It was announced on Monday July 11th that he fired his agents for Scott Boras. Usually not a move a player does if he’s not looking for a big pay day. He was only willing to waive his option for another long term deal. That’s why you let an option go, just like Sabathia did.
The Mets traded him TWO DAYS LATER because KRod hired an agent to help him get more $ in his pocket… that is why you hire Boras. For the open market. He didn’t want to be a Met, he wanted to go away. KRod thought he had a chance to call the shuts… thus he thought he had the leverage.
Don’t ask me. Ask his LAWYER
“If Rodriguez had been aware a no-trade provision was never filed during his career, Johnson said, he would have been more amenable to signing an extension with the Mets. Rodriguez thought he had leverage, Johnson said, that didn’t exist.”
They wanted to sue because KRod’s agents didn’t file the no trade paperwork and I don’t think its confirmed yet but the Mets PROBABLY knew Boras could figure it out quickly so they acted quickly after he was hired.
If they didn’t trade him, they had 0 power. Either he was going to get the option vested and they’d pay him $17.5mil or he’d leave anyway.
They wanted to move on from him, and the hiring of Boras made things happen quickly. He also wanted to move on from them but he just thought he had more power than he really did.
Why can’t you admit when I’m right and just stop talking out of your ass?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303812104576440440167142796.html
Voras thought there WAS no Trade paperwork which means at the time he couldn’t have been hired for the screwup mentioned in the lawsuit!
Here is some more for you to choke on…Boras seemed to think he had a say in where K-Rod went but didn’t.
“It’s certainly curious how quickly they traded K-Rod. Boras’ presence changed the game a bit, as the agent immediately seemed to set a new course, saying Rodriguez wouldn’t be happy to be traded to a team where he’d be a set-up man, in opposition to K-Rod’s previous public pronouncements. So the Mets have been concerned some teams would become scared.”
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_heyman/07/13/mets.brewers.trade.francisco.rodriguez/index.html#ixzz27RpVs851
Note the phrase K-Rod’s PREVIOUS PUBLIC ANNONCEMENTS!
Boras was hired and thought he had a no trade list but didn’t which makes your original link (AS USUAL) just post dated subterfuge hoping to rewrite historic events!
Now if you admit you were wrong and your attitude unjustified maybe we can continue on a civil path!
YOUR the one who thinks he is always right!
Even when your wrong and if the facts don’t prove you out you make up facts or twist some other fact to try and fit your little Sandy Is Great Fantasy world!
“If Rodriguez had been aware a no-trade provision was never filed during his career, Johnson said, he would have been more amenable to signing an extension with the Mets. Rodriguez thought he had leverage, Johnson said, that didn’t exist.”
I wish I could bold and underline it for you
Rodriguez thought he had leverage, Johnson said, that didn’t exist.
Johnson is KRod’s Lawyer. KRod got traded because he made the first move and hired Scott Boras because he thought he had leverage to get a better deal for himself NOT to try and help the Mets out.
When he did that, they QUICKLY traded him because they knew what KRod didn’t and the longer he was with Boras the worse things would get for the Mets.
And then they wondered why it happened so fast, then they realized why and got mad. They thought they had leverage. You don’t talk about leverage if you dont plan to USE IT.
You can spin the story anyway you’d like but the fact remains he hired the best sports agent probably in the world because he wanted to get more money.
If he had dropped his vesting option with the Mets – what would have happened?
Exactly what happened to the Brewers, they would have THOUGHT they’d get draft picks but then guess what? Nobody wanted KRod so they had to keep him and lost the possibility of draft picks that they thought they would obtain. Lose, Lose.
Bold and underline i please…THEN explain to us how he fired his Agent for something he didn’t know was a problem that you cited as his reason for the firing!!!!
Should I underline and bold the line about K-Rod asking to get rid of the option and his agent meeting with Alderson and it not getting done?
Should I also bold the line that showed Sandy used the fact he was willing to lose the Option as a selling point for the trade when you claim he never spoke to alderson (your old fantasy) with your new one that K-Rod refused to give it up over some LEVERAGE you now claim he knew he didn’t have at the time and fired his agent for?
You evidence seems to contradict whatever it was you have tried to say for a year on this K-Rod issue!
Once again, I will quote KRod’s actual lawyer. His actual lawyer the one who is responsible for filing damages and making the case in FAVOR of Francisco Rodriguez. You’re trying to argue against 1 mistake sentence that I typed wrong and proved time and time again it wasn’t my line of thinking. I know he hired Boras pre-trade, thats my entire point. Focus on THAT and not 1 sentence where I mistyped and focus on the 50+ where I give you the facts. Argue the facts not a typo.
Here is the lawyer once again.
“They did something atrocious. Their arrogance makes this so evil. It’s like rear-ending somebody but instead of stopping your car and trading insurance information they blew up the car and ran away. They committed negligence and turned it into a fraud case … He’s going to lose a lot of money; the question is whether it’s seven figures or eight figures. There’s long-term damage to his career. He wasn’t even in position to be marketed as a closer last winter. They really (messed) with his career in a monumental way.”
From the article: The alleged damage is that by being unable to veto a trade to Milwaukee like he thought he’d be able to, K-Rod lost out on showcasing himself as a closer late last year and thus was unable to make bank this winter as a free agent. Instead he accepted arbitration and will remain, presumably as a setup man, with the Brewers.
“If Rodriguez had been aware a no-trade provision was never filed during his career, Johnson said, he would have been more amenable to signing an extension with the Mets. Rodriguez thought he had leverage, Johnson said, that didn’t exist.”
He thought he had leverage. You don’t need leverage if you don’t plan to use it.
Which is why he hired Scott Boras. TO USE THE LEVERAGE HE THOUGHT HE HAD!!!!
When the Mets saw he hired Boras they traded him BEFORE they could find out they had no leverage and it became a bigger issue. If Alderson knew he’d waive the option and STILL couldn’t find a market for the guy from teams who needed a closer – what would the market be when he hits free agency? Nothing. Thus he knew teams getting him probably won’t get the picks they THINK they will get. Which is what would have happened to them.
It was practically the next day. KRod was rumored talking to Boras a few days prior, he hires Boras, he gets traded and then realizes his previous agent screwed him.
You hire Scott Boras to help you make more money. You don’t make more money by helping your current team out. He wanted out of NY and he thought he could waive the option so he could hit the open market and get PAID. The problem as we saw was, he did the exact same thing with Milwaukee and the Brewers thought “go ahead, we’ll get picks” and what happened?
Nobody wanted him. Why?
And what happened to the Brewers? An expensive setup man and no draft picks.
The whole situation was ugly but in the end, Alderson did 1 thing right here – he accurately predicted the market for KRod. You cannot deny it. Nobody wanted him but the Brewers, and nobody wanted him in the open market. Nobody. Just like nobody bid for him the first time and the Mets outbid themselves – just like they did with Ollie P and Luis Castillo.
Your quoting a Lawyer who knows you can’t sue for NOT making a deal a player wanted him to make and getting BLINDSIDED by the fact his No trade clause wasn’t properly filed….
POST INVENTED ARGUMENTS!
At the time he hired Boras he thought his No Trade clause WAS FINE!
WHich means he couldn’t have fired the Agent for not filing what he thought WAS filed!
“because he didn’t do what K-Rod told him to do which was to get rid of the option so he could remain a Closer!” Metsie he hired Scott Boras before he was ever a setup man. He was the Mets closer and there was no mention ever of being a setup man prior to firing his agent.
So that doesn’t make sense. He fired his agents because he wanted to get the best deal for himself financially on an open market but he didn’t know his previous agent didn’t file proper paperwork so he was traded and became a setup man and his value plummeted.
Did you honestly think he was going to say “I’m wrong”?
Especially when I’m NOT Wrong?
Keep Dreaming here dude!
He fired his agent because he said:
“Rodriguez told Collins during their discussion that he wanted to get rid of the option, so any decisions on how the Mets used him would be related strictly to baseball.”
And fired him becauase:
“Waldstein said that Collins referred Rodriguez to Sandy Alderson, but that a deal could not be worked out, but Alderson told other teams that Rodriguez would be willing to forgo the option, making it much easier for the Mets to trade him.”
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/08/back-story-on-k-rod-option-beato-and-parnell-have-struggled.html
Nothing there says he wanted the best deal for himself in fact there is proof that he would have preferred to stay a closer and become a Free Agent.
“K-Rod could get a multiyear deal as a free agent, so he might not mind so terribly giving up the vesting option and becoming a free agent instead.
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_heyman/07/13/mets.brewers.trade.francisco.rodriguez/index.html#ixzz27RrPdiWq”
SO read it and weep smart ass!
You once again put your own foot in your mouth by trying to create these SANDY SAFE fantasies in order to keep the shine on this miserable and failed GM!
hard to get on rauch. Since mid-june when he got straightened out, he has been very solid. His ERA is down to 2.92, so barely more than Dickey. Everyone gives up a hit run and HR on occasion.
Fonzie,
Bill Rigney died in 2001. Prior to his death he was in semi-retirement, serving primarily as an advisor/consultant to the club with limited contributions – nothing compared to his role before that.
So my error was not adding the prefix “semi” but that doesn’t change that he had a very limited role with Oakland after going from special assistant to the President to that of special assistant to the executive vice president to just a special assistant in 1991. He was no longer involved with the club on the level he once was and to imply otherwise is misleading, unlike the point about him no longer working on a daily basis with Sandy Alderson after 1991 if they did work together on player personnel decisions.
So the point about him no longer working hand and hand with Alderson is still accurate. Those demands and responsibilities require a full time employee, not one one in semi-retirement. My error was saying he was retired instead of semi-retired – a small slip with no consequential effects about the point I was getting at.
Who the hell is Bill Rigney and why have you been bringing him up for six damn months?????!!!!???? What is this obsession with you, Fonzie13 and this guy I wish was never born named Bill Rigney???!?!?!?!
Kevin did you have to ask? Now we’re going to get a 600 word response.
Yes I had to ask! Because every time I read the comments here his name is always brought up literally every single day and aside from you two I don’t think anybody ever heard of this guy or gives a crap about him. For a dead guy who never played for the Mets he gets way too much attention and every time I see that name it drives me crazy!
Hi Kevin,
Bill Rigney gets a lot of Met fans sick in an indirect way – only because he was associated with the Angeles and even though he was not with them during 1972, just the mere thought of the Angeles in anyway brings up bad memories of getting Jim Fregosi from them in return for Nolan Ryan.
Know it’s a stretch but forty years later some are still pissed off with that trade.
Kevin I’ll explain briefly why Joey is obsessed with this Bill Rigney nonsense. Joey hates Sandy Alderson with a passion and refuses to acknowledge his accomplishments with Oakland because he became a GM as an outsider and Joey doesn’t wanna believe it so he comes up with stories about the teams consultant (Bill Rigney) being the man responsible for building the Oakland A’s not the GM Alderson. That’s it in a nutshell. Joey brings it up every day and I remind him that it’s 100% false. What it has to do with the Mets I have no idea. I’m just as sick of it as you are.
Hi Fonzie,
Despite the ridicule, please know tomorrow after sundown I’ll be including you in my prayers to G-d to enter your name in the Book of Life for another year as Yom Kippur, begins, as I will everyone and their loved ones here at MMO.
Sharing a Good Yontif with everybody.
Happy Yom Kippur!
Now can we please move on from this nonsense and talk about the present and future of the Mets instead.
I’ll explain it to you Kev…
There is a group of about 5 or 6 guys here who love Sandy alderson and won’t leave anyone who criticizes him alone!
Rigney got brought up because someone said Sandy hadn’t really won anywhere except Oakland and he had little to do with that team as he was just an inexperienced business guy learning the business from Rigney and Eisenhardt!
89 is the only WS Sandy has on his resume so it has been debated ad nauseum because the guys who think Sandy Craps Gold Nuggets need something to use as justification for saying he has a track record and has won something!
Hi Metsie,
And thank you as always.
Can you do me a favor? You and Jessep make peace together for you’ve both been cordial with me and I just hate to see two really nice guys hurting each other.
Don’t sweat it Joey….
As soon as Sandy gets the boot Jessup will come back to earth and you will see a big difference.
We never disagreed this badly before he got on this Sandy Worship kick!
Kevin — Bill Rigney was a mediocre ballplayer for the New York Giants. He was an utility infielder while Alvin Dark, Davey Williams and Whitey Lockman were the infield stars. I saw him play in 1952. Any big league ballplayer is a terrific athlete, but at that level, Rigney was a fill in.
Hi Des,
I think Rigney’s biggest accomplishment was as a manager, leading the Angeles to a third place finish in only their second year of existence (1962) before the advent of free agency when teams could buy players like Arizona did decades later. They were still challenging the Yankees for most of the season until failing in late August.
Under Rigney, they actually finished above .500 three of their first seven seasons. It took the other three original expansion teams (Mets, Astros and new Washington Senators) more time to do that even once. I shudder to think how long it’s going to take us to accomplish even that again.
Joey D. — “I think Rigney’s biggest accomplishment was as a manager”
Hi Joey,
Well we can be certain his big moments didn’t occur on the field. He was less than average there. LOL.
From Des
P.S.: I hope you have a meaningful holiday.
Thanks Des,
It seems to me that more mediocre players have come on to become great managers, perhaps because they were able to identify with so many players under their wing who were just as limited talent wise and understood how to use them and what to expect. And some of the great ones failed as managers, often because they expected their players to perform too often like they did.
Hi Kevin,
Too long to explain – much more than the modest 600 word essay Fonzie says I would write – Fonz, I expected more like 600 pages than 600 words!
Quick summary:
there is a dispute over who was the architect of the Oakland championship clubs – Rigney or Alderson (forget about Fonzie’s emphasis on his being a broadcaster and not a special assistant to the President) and whether Sandy is a baseball man as he is instead an executive financial and legal one. The relevancy to the Mets is questioning how knowledgeable he really is in player personnel put together in lieu of his own admittance of having no professional knowledge joining Oakland and learning the professional game through understanding the data acquired through advanced statistics.
Fonzie, I think that comes in under 100 words. Surprised?
Most people don’t care about Alderson’s past and only judge him on what he has accomplished with the Mets. Some believe he has a vision which will take years to reach fruition while others (like me) think he is there to cut costs to the bare minimum in order for the Wilpons to be able to weather their financial crisis and retain ownership. Others think he just plain sucks.
Joey D. — Sandy has had a nice career. Omar has had a nice career. All the huffing and puffing comes from a dozen or so fans who are getting callouses from their keyboard stomping. Really, none of us know the future so it can be said there is a whole lot of hot air being generated about Sandy’s future contribution to the Mets.
Hi Des,
Amen to that. I will agree as being one of those culprits killing his fingers on the keyboard.
Since we both are two of the elder statesmen of the group, though I wasn’t old enough to see Rigney play I did get a chance to see Marv Thronberry before he became a Met when he was playing first base for Kansas City in a game against the Yankees. Little did we know his glory years were ahead of him.
He was always a consultant. He was also in the broadcats booth Aldersons first few years. How does a consultant who does color analyst for TV work hand in hand with the GM. And I suggest you research the draft picks during that time. Or ask Billy Beane about them. They made a movie and wrote a book. So here you go again now with a little different conjecture all because you were proved wrong about Rigney after trying to pass it off as he being the man who built that team. Now you’re trying to say the teams downward trend was because he was no longer a full time consultant. You act had grown old the first few months of this nonsense. Stop with the obsession.