NL East Positional Battle: Catcher

34 Comments + Add Comment

• jessep February 9, 2012 at 12:45 pm

  I think C is a spot where NYM def. falls short against NL East competion. I don’t mind Thole, I mean I’d like a better C but he is what he is.

  For me, Buck was pretty bad last year but he’s 1 year removed from an all-star selection…

  Thole has a bit more to prove before I can say he’s better than Buck.

  That sentence alone speaks to how poor the Mets are behind the dish… when you have to prove you’re the 4th best not the 5th best.
  • jessep February 9, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    Also, Buck had a TERRIBLE year throwing the ball last year but I wouldn’t declare him as a 1 armed catcher. Why did he chuck out 25% in Toronto in 2010?
• Mr North Jersey February 9, 2012 at 12:27 pm

  Real Dirty Mets? Sounds familiar.
  • gategem February 9, 2012 at 3:21 pm

    Sounds like the nickname that should have been given to the ’86 Mets for their off the field exploits. Is that a XXX site? ‘-)
• Alex68 February 9, 2012 at 12:35 pm

  TRS86, no… no.. and no, buck is better than thole… and imo, ruiz is very underrated, one of the reason the phillies pitching staff and pitchers got to be good is because ruiz is a good Catcher and knows how to call a game.. also, not bad for a #8 hitter.. Ramos did good last year, but again, he’s been in the league for basically one year, let’s see more out of him.. my list would be:

  Mccann
  Ruiz
  Ramos
  Buck
  Thole
  • any February 9, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    well, can’t really say he had much to do with Lee or Halladay!
    • t agee February 9, 2012 at 2:35 pm

      I think Ruiz was the key to the Phillies beating us in 2007 and 2008. Back then they didn’t have Halliday or Lee and while you can’t give 100% of the credit to a catcher the sheer number of outstanding pitching performances by guys who weren’t really known for that or were surviving on guile is hard to deny.

      Ruiz is from a town in Panama that has an extremely well developed baseball program and is always in the finals of the national amateur tournament and was signed at 16. It took him 9 or 10 years before he got up here and obviously he learned a lot along the way. He’s totally team oriented, doesn’t care if he hits 9th or anywhere else and whether he’s riding a throughbred or a mule he gives his guy a very good chance for a quality start every single time out.

      To me he’s just a guy who only cares about winning and takes care of a lot of stuff that isn’t always visable and he has had some pretty damn good post seasons with the bat as well.

      Ruiz is a great example of the importance of the IFA to a teams foundation. Even when the IFA doesn’t make it as a big time star it’s not uncommon to find a guy who can be a huge part of your team’s success who flies under the radar but really keeps things in check during the game.
      • Bayonne Mets Fan February 9, 2012 at 2:57 pm

        Now THAT is breaking news.

        Anybody else here felt that Ruiz was the key to the Phillies beating the Mets in 07 & 08?

        I have a feeling this guy said this because Ruiz was an IFA and what better segue than that? Since he’s always talking about drafts t agee has concluded through in his own pathology that’s the reason the Phillies beat us in 07 & 08 is because of an IFA signing
  • trs86 February 9, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    Based on what is Buck better than Thole? His name? Seriously the Marlins would be better with Joe Buck as I said in the article. He was statistically the worst catcher in baseball last year offensively and had a 17% CS percentage on defense. If you want to say he did wonders with their pitching staff and game calling, go back and look at that one too… He’s awful. Thole is terrible which is one step better than awful, just ask Charles Barkely.
    • jessep February 9, 2012 at 2:13 pm

      Based on the fact in 2010 he was an All-Star and Josh Thole hasn’t sniffed an All-Star ballot?

      In 2010 he threw out 28%, I’m not saying the past is a lock but it has to count for something no?

      When Thole has as close to a year as Buck did just 1 year ago, then I think it’s a fair debate…but we’re not talking about Buck 5 years ago, we’re talking Buck 2010.
      • trs86 February 9, 2012 at 2:30 pm

        Where was that one year? Toronto. Again, I am not giving him credit for an aberration in offense the one year he played in Toronto. Also, using an AS selection as a tool for determining if a player is better?

        Also his 28% was backed up by 16, 17 and 21 the previous 3 years. So when it looks like this
        21
        17
        16
        28
        17
        I think it’s pretty clear which one of these isn’t the same… which one doesn’t fit.

        Also is there even a hint of upside with Buck? The guy is over 30 with one “good” season playing in Toronto. The rest of his career .250 would have stood out.
        • jessep February 9, 2012 at 7:18 pm

          trs: To be fair, you can’t just eliminate an All-Star appearance because you don’t like where he played. It still happened.

          2010 John Buck: Away OPS .841 Home OPS .756.

          I’m not saying John Buck is anything special, but Thole has done absolutely nothing in his career to date to prove he’s better than a 2010 All Star catcher… and to use Buck’s team against him is just reaching for an excuse to put Thole #4 rather than actually use facts.

          Going into 212, Thole is the worst catcher in the NL.
  • MetsMan86 February 9, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    I agree. Ruiz is VERY under rated. He doesn’t put up big numbers at all, but he is VERY clutch and seems to get his only hits of a game when someone is on base. Even a diehard Phillies fan couldn’t tell you how many big hits he has gotten.
• srt February 9, 2012 at 12:44 pm

  As I said over on TRDM when TRS posted this….you got me. I would have expected to see Thole last.

  Looking forward to the rest of the series.
• JetsMets13 February 9, 2012 at 12:46 pm

  When Buck was available, I was hoping that the Mets would go all out to get him. I would take Buck over Thole a thousand times over. I do like the idea of this series though and look forward to reading the rest of it.
• trs86 February 9, 2012 at 2:09 pm

  Thanks for the link.

  I just can’t place someone who found a way to be statistically worse than Thole and defensively worse than Thole ahead of him regardless of some lofty numbers in Toronto the previous year. The guy is an awful hitter that swings for the fences every time and could not throw out Daniel Murphy rounding 2nd a steal of 2nd.
• USMF February 9, 2012 at 2:13 pm

  I like Thole, I don’t think he’s the best catcher around…I think he’s new to the position and has lots to learn and I think catching RAD got him into bad habits.

  I will make one defense of him. People bash his bad CS%, which isn’t good, but the actual SB’s total, while 65 not great, is better than McCann (104), John Buck (83) and Carlos Ruiz(77). While Thole played in less games than the others, they really didn’t have that much better success that Thole at throwing guys out.

  When I compare Thole to Paulino, their SB% is close to the same. Paulino has had a good SB% throughout his career and it took a big hit last year. Too me, this points to the pitching staff. Look at the main Mets starters from last year…

  R.A. Dickey 7SB 3CS .30%
  Mike Pelfrey 29SB 2CS .06%
  Chris Capuano 9SB 5CS .36%
  Jonathon Niese 7SB 1CS .13%
  Dillon Gee 8SB 7CS .47%

  Niese, RAD (very surprising) and Cappy all have a pretty low SB base total. Too me, it means that they all hold runners on very well and only the best base stealers are swiping bags when they know they got it. The marginal guys can’t get a good enough read and jump off them so they don’t go.

  Then we have Pelf, who freaks out when ever anyone gets on base and starts balking, dropping the ball, licking his hands and just flat out falling down. His CS% is one of the worst in MLB. With Pelf, I don’t care is Pudge is behind the plate, if the pitcher sucks holding guys, then the base will be stolen.

  Thole has a lot of improving to do…but he’s not as bad as the raw numbers make him look.
  • any February 9, 2012 at 5:41 pm

    There is an old baseball axiom that runners steal on the pitcher, not the catcher.
    • USMF February 9, 2012 at 6:26 pm

      I tend to believe that it’s a little of both…A good catcher won’t make a bad pitcher good and a good pitcher won’t fix a bad catcher (but it does help).

      I just look at the numbers a little more than just what Thole has done and I see a trend.
• Bayonne Mets Fan February 9, 2012 at 2:23 pm

  And naturally a general manager who was intelligent and realizes that addressing the BATTERY part of this team should have been one of the priorities this off season along with SP. That’s why they call it a batter

  But our GM decided that addressing the catching situation was that important and now look. It is a ridiculous mind set. This team needed an experienced catcher to work with this pitching staff and he did not address it.

  He did not address it.
  • Bayonne Mets Fan February 9, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    - should read “that’s why they all it a battery”
    - should read “catching situation was NOT that important and now look”
  • trs86 February 9, 2012 at 2:32 pm

    Not sure why I am responding. I too hoped that they would get a veteran to back up Thole but I think it is also important to the Mets at least, to find out what they actually have in Thole before bringing in some washed up guy and throwing Thole away.
    • Bayonne Mets Fan February 9, 2012 at 2:46 pm

      Glad you gobbled up the info and then re-interpretted it as if I was saying to get rid of Thole and that the catcher I wanted is old and washed up.

      I did not say that nor did I infer it.

      Actually my first choice was a guy signed by the D-Backs to work with Thole and he was here before. Guess the D-Backs don’t think he’s washed up and what’s good for the D-Backs is good for the Mets.

      As I’ve said here before on this blog numerous times, and the general understanding of most here is that if the Mets want to go with Thole that’s all fine but you NEED a real catcher to help the team and to help Thole. Name anybody you want – young or old but the team needed a REAL catcher to work with Thole.
      • any February 9, 2012 at 5:43 pm

        40 isn’t old for a catcher? He also has been only a couple times a week guy for a long time now.
    • t agee February 9, 2012 at 3:32 pm

      Nice article TRS.

      I just don’t think Thole ever had a prayer of being a solid catcher the way he was developed.

      His first 3 1/2 years were spent playing 1B, a year and a half later he was up here cause we needed a catcher. He’s terrible at blocking balls and I don’t think it’s a stretch at all to think that not only is the pitching staff afraid to put one in the dirt, I think their afraid to miss the plate on either side as well. I’ve even seen him miss the ball entirely on strikes and let the umpire get hit with the ball. That’s not going to get you any close calls.

      When he catches not only are the PB out of sight so are the WP’s and numerous other pitches with no one on roll back to the backstop as well. He backhands pitches low and away instead of sliding over and his offense doesn’t allow runners to advance more than one base. Now I’m sure he’ll improve this year but that what the minors are for and he’s been up here since 2009.

      We’ve done an unbelievably poor job in developing catchers, in fact we have selected just one catcher in the first three rounds since 1995 (Brook Fordyce 3rd 2010) Considering how many catchers get moved to other positions or just don’t make it all partly due to a much higher workload than other positions in the minors is it any wonder we have to spend all off season scouring the lists of players whose teams had better options and cut them loose?

      Really that’s the plan? sign another retread or two every year? That’ll do wonders for Harvey, Familia, Mejia and Wheeler.

      We’ve also done a really bad at catcher in the IFA arena. 2002 Jesus Flores, 2006 Pena who is certainly worth keeping for as long as possible and 2008 Cordero who looks like he may be an above average major League catcher with an ETA of 2014 at best. In addition Juan Centeno and Cam Maron are two 30th rounders who could provide more than Josh but not likely until mid 2013 and 2015 respectively if at all. 2011 we signed 16 year old Jose Garcia out of Panama.

      That’s about 7 decent attempts over more than 15 years with no one who could possibly be major league ready by this year and while Josh could have been, he was playing 1B most of his first 3 years in the farm.

      What a joke the way this team has been run over the last two decades and the results bear that out.
• Trade Wright for Nolan Arenado February 9, 2012 at 3:05 pm

  Buck had a horrible 2011…but, based on his career prior to last season, I would still have to say he is better than Thole. Thole is better at getting on base, because Buck is a strikeout machine, but, besides that, Buck seems to be the better player right now. Buck is a 15+ HR guy per year and a 20+ doubles guy per year. Buck is a better game caller and a better defender, which is the main duty of a catcher. How many times in 2011 were we going crazy about how bad of a game caller and how bad of a defender Thole was. If 2011 never happened, this would not be a discussion because Buck had a very good 2010 campaign, where he was named an all-star. Buck is the obvious choice right now. However, if 2012 mirrors 2011 for Buck, then Thole has an argument at being the #4 catcher in the division.
  • trs86 February 9, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    Look at Buck’s career stats and see which season sticks out… last year or 2010.
    • Trade Wright for Nolan Arenado February 9, 2012 at 5:11 pm

      Just saying…a .265 hitter with no power who calls a bad game and plays below average defense or a .240 hitter who hits 15 HRs per year who plays average defense. I’ll take the latter.
      • trs86 February 9, 2012 at 8:49 pm

        .240 is a good year for Buck… No average defense either.
        • Trade Wright for Nolan Arenado February 9, 2012 at 10:20 pm

          He’s a career .241 hitter in 8 seasons and prior to his .227 in 2011, he batted .247 and .281 respectively, so I’d say .240 is an average year for Buck. As for defense…considering that from 2008-2011 Buck had 17 passed balls as compared to the 16 that Thole had in 2011 alone, Buck may be below average at defense, but Thole is barely good enough to play catcher in high school defensively.
• SaltyGary February 9, 2012 at 3:17 pm

  My feeling is Thole is the worst catcher in the league. I don’t think I have ever hear of a slap hitting catcher. Maybe if he had some speed but he doesn’t. Defense and game calling are sub-par as well. Catcher is so weak MLB wide that I am fine with them giving him one more year. And god forbid he gets injured, because it can actually get worse.
  • t agee February 9, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    With a lead in the late innings you’ve got to have Nickeas in there and he should be making 80 starts as well unless he doesn’t hit at all. The offensive advantage Josh gives you is a lot smaller than the defensive advantage Nickeas does.
• any February 9, 2012 at 5:45 pm

  This is why i said all off seaosn that if they were able to trade anyone the first thing they should be looking to get back was a good catching prospect that was ready to break into the majors.
• Chris February 10, 2012 at 2:57 am

  Montero and Napoli are both free agents after this year. just sayin.