12
2012
Sandy Alderson Is The Teflon GM
An article by 
The Second Half Is Going To Be A Lot Of Fun….
There is rampant evidence that the Mets’ 2012 season is officially over. Just like the smell of fresh cut grass and tender green foliage signals the beginning of Spring and the start of another baseball season, the Mets second half fade is also filled with tell-tale happenings that you come to expect whenever the end is near or in this case here.
The anti-ownership brigade starts to stretch their limbs like a hungry grizzly waking up from it’s long slumber. Howard Megdal and Mike Francesa are already hitting the airwaves, one as usual to blast ownership with everything he’s got, and the other replenishing his YES Network funded gasbag to blast anything and everything Mets.
It’s the dawn of another Mets bashing era. It seems like each year they start earlier and earlier, just like when you see the Christmas Dept. at Target all setup in September. Usher in six new months of unabashed bias and get ready for your fill of angst from the same old people spouting off their same old speculation cloaked under the guise of objectivity. Oh, brother…
I didn’t get a chance to comment on what Mike Francesa said or what Howard Megdal wrote on Friday. I’ll go more into Megdal’s attendance piece on Tuesday, but I’ll briefly share a couple of thoughts on Francesa in a minute. First I want to comment on something I read on MetsBlog this morning.
Today on MetsBlog, our friend Michael Baron said something that a large contingent of Mets bloggers and readers say all too often. In response to a quote from a David Lennon article on Fred Wilpon, Michael wrote:
I understand what Sandy is trying to do here, and it’s important he stays the course and succeeds. No matter how anyone spins the situation, this is a rebuilding phase from top to bottom for the Mets. Despite this very disappointing stretch, they have kept to their philosophy and approach and have begun to stockpile their minor league system with promising talent (although most of that talent is in the lower levels of the system). That is progress, even though it doesn’t seem that way right now.
What course is Michael Baron talking about? If this is a rebuilding phase, where is the evidence of that?
He says they (Alderson and Co.) have kept to their philosophy and approach, but what philosophy and approach is that? And if that is indeed a fact, then the fact that Alderson and Co. are sticking to their approach should have no negative impact or bearing on Fred Wilpon who allows them to manage and run the team as they see fit, right?
If you believe that for the last two years everything is going according to plan, then what we have is the non-meddling owner that most fanbases can only wish for, right?
You can’t burn both ends of the same candle. You can’t blame Wilpon when things go awry if Sandy Alderson is “staying the course”, right? It seems too many fans want it both ways. Not only is that hypocritical as well as biased, but you lose all credibility in the process.
Now, here’s the thing… I actually agree with Baron and Cerrone and many of my Mets brethren about this front office sticking to their philosophy, but with one big exception… I don’t use the Wilpons as a crutch when things go wrong like so many of them like to do.
If Sandy Alderson is a great GM then it goes without saying that the owners made a great decision.
If you believe that Sandy Alderson is not a puppet and is leading this team to a better tomorrow, than Mets ownership is tied into that and in fact largely responsible for that better tomorrow as well.
You see my point?
Now, with that out of the way, let’s discuss this so-called plan, or so-called course, or this better tomorrow…
I don’t see it… I don’t see this better tomorrow… I don’t see this course that everyone wants to stay on… I don’t see a plan….
I see the Mets doing what all small market teams do.
They show up on draft day, select about 40-something players, sign them, or in the Mets case sign half of them, and hope 2-3 of them could become quality major leaguers someday.
That’s not a plan, that’s a rudimentary summary of what all teams do.
What team’s dont build from within and draft players they spent countless weeks scouting and analyzing in the lead-up to draft day?
Even the Yankees do that, and quite frankly they do a better job of it than most teams.
So when you throw out phrases like “stay the course”, what exactly are you talking about?
When you say things like “stick to the plan”, what plan is that?
One thing I thought was very clever in that Francesa rant was when he suggested the Mets 2013 slogan, “We’re one step closer to 2014″.
I gotta admit, it gave me a chuckle. But seriously, what happens in 2014?
If we are the same old, dreary team comprised of utility and platoon players with everyday jobs, or players trying to comeback from injuries, does Sandy Alderson continue to get a free pass?
Or do we just blame Fred Wilpon again if and when that happens?
Despite Francesa’s ratings driven tirade on Friday, his focal point of “What’s The Plan”, rang true.
What is the plan?
What happens in 2014 when Sandy Alderson’s contract is up?
Do we give him a big fat extension for staying the course?
With regards to building from within, all teams do that now. It’s a death-knell to any organization not to build from within and that’s why all teams do it. That’s not a course, that’s just basic common sense approach employed by all MLB teams.
Avoiding big contracts on declining players? That’s not a course either. Most teams don’t set out to do that, it just happens because the game is so unpredictable. To think otherwise is foolish.
Before Jason Bay there was George Foster by Frank Cashen and Bobby Bonilla by Steve Phillips. It happens to the best GMs and none of them planned for those painful outcomes. The game is unpredictable and in that unpredictability is it’s true beauty.
The tragedy is when a front office fails to realize that there is risk with any free agent signing and they become gun-shy and do nothing instead – like M. Donald Grant.
The tragedy is when a front office avoids signing any free agents to big contracts because they misfired on one of them. It puts the team at a competitive disadvantage.
The Mets are operating under a cloud of fear. They are afraid of moving any minor league chips, even fringe prospects, because they are afraid that one of them may prove to be a quality player and bite them on their fat, overpaid asses. Again, this puts the team at a competitive disadvantage.
Fear to make any moves that can help a team is not a good strategy.
And saying publicly that we won’t make any moves unless we believe it to be a substantial improvement and a big win for us, is pure ignorance and yet another terrible philosophy. Trades are consummated when both sides feel they’ve met their objectives. The point is not for one team to hammer the other, it’s to make a deal that is equitable for both. A progressive GM knows that.
Saying other teams players are “too pricey” while demanding a team’s top three prospect for Scott Hairston is a bit much and a huge red flag. It tells all the other GM’s that you are out of your element and that the game has passed you by. It signals to the other teams that negotiating with the Mets is a fruitless endeavor and a waste of their valuable time.
Think about the hundreds of trade and free agent talks you’ve seen reported on MetsBlog in the last 22 months. Think of all those great names that could have helped the team. And yet none of them panned out and the Mets were left to rely on some Rule 5 players and dumpster diving in January to fill out the rest of the roster.
If that’s the course, then I don’t want to stay on it.
Do you really believe David Wright will want to stick around for more of that? I’m almost certain that Wright will get his $130 million dollars elsewhere at the end of 2013.
I’ll leave you with this… I enjoyed this comment yesterday, by longtime reader Mookie who wrote:
Even when the Yankees brought up Jeter/Rivera/Posada they already went after and installed Paul O’Neill, Tino Martinez, Wade Boggs, David Cone, Jimmy Key and John Wetteland. They didn’t just bring up their core and voila! Who is Nimmo, Wheeler and Cecchini joining in 2014? Duda? Thole? Torres? Parnell?
Good question and the perfect ending to this Sunday rant…
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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Good rant Joe.It’s August, what else can Met fans do?I sold off my remaining 2 games on Stubhub and i have stopped watching on SNY.The latter was easy because i don’t even see effort anymore.Maholm is a left handed Chris Young and he 3 hits us?PUHLEEEEEZE!!!!!
And Young 4 hit the Giants last week, so I guess that makes them awful too!
A single season payroll drop of $50,000,000 is the evidence that says this team is rebuilding. How long did it take Frank Cashen to rebuild this team? We need more than a 1 1/2 years to judge Sandy. No payroll flexibility.
Joe D – Great post. Rivals War & Peace, but that’s what happens when you dig up the dirt and generate an omnibus assessment of the State of the New York Mets. I agree with some parts and disagree with others.
The short answer is that Lute is correct in that it’s too early to tell. However, here’s a few points that I’d like to contribute:
First, the Wilpons are absolutely accountable for the financial mess that surrounds this organization. They allowed Omar Minaya, a great talent scout but lousy executive, to run loose with Madoff money – the investment machine that funded this franchise. Omar was a symptom of fiscal mismanagement, not the cause.
Second, the Wilpons were very smart if they brought Sandy in on their own, and very, very fortunate if Sandy came to NY at Bud Selig’s request. Shortly after Sandy arrived, he found himself in the midst of the Wilpon’s financial whirlpool, which was spiraling downward toward bankruptcy and potential enormous civil liability. His father had just passed away, which is no small matter for a man of his substantial character – likely predicated upon the lessons of dad.
What did Sandy find? Here’s some of the contracts:
- Jason Bay – 16m/season x 4
- Ollie Perez – 12m/season x 3
- Luis Castillo – 6m/season x4
- Johan Santana – 23m/season thru 2013 w/5.5m buyout on 26m final year (31.5m)
- Francisco Rodriguez – 12m/season x 3
- Carlos Beltran – @23m/season thru 2011
That’s 92m/year without including Wright & Reyes… Well, what would a wise GM do?
Jason Bay – he’s done… I truly feel bad for him, but would have much greater respect for him if he simply retired and stopped taking money that he clearly is not capable of earning.
Ollie Peres – he needed to leave.
Luis Castillo – Has my respect because he never quit on himself or the team, even in the darkest of days.
Johan Santana – Has my respect and has earned a very unique place in NY Met history. But he has not earned his contract.
KRod – Takahashi was better at a fraction of the cost and without baggage.
Betran – Has my gratitude for elevating his game to a point where Sandy could reel in a prospect like Wheeler.
In other words, SA inherited a train wreck like few others will ever see.
Again, what would a wise GM do in a similar situation? In my view, SA’s two errors were in not trading Jose Reyes for value last season – Sandy knew or should’ve known he would not have been able to re-sign him. Second, he failed to re-sign Takahashi to a 3-year deal – seems unimportant, but he performed so well in so many roles it appeared to me then insensible to just let him walk.
Here’s what I would do:
- Exercise option on David Wright and trade him to Colorado with Josh Thole and two pitching prospects (Mejia, Familia, Mazzone) for Drew Pomeranz and Wilin Rosario.
- Trade Daniel Murphy and one of the above pitching prospects not dealt for Toronto RH hitting OF prospect Jake Marisnick. I would do whatever it would take (throw in Duda or Kirk, if necessary).
- As soon as Johan evidences his old form for over one month, I’d trade him and eat part of the contract.
- Use whatever prospects that remain to acquire Giants OF RH hitting CF prospect Gary Brown
I would square up with the NY Met fan base and inform them that the team will be predicated on pitching and strong defense up the middle. It would be a young team with budding prospects…
Rotation: Dickey, Pomeranz, Harvey, Niese, Wheeler
Bullpen: FA closer, Francisco, Parnell, Gee, Edgin, Takahashi (if possible), open slot
IF: Ike Davis, Valdespin, Tejada, Zach Lutz or Justin Turner
OF: LF – Baxter, CF Gary Brown, RF – Jake Marisnick
C – Rosario
Line-up;
Tejada
Valdespin
Brown
Davis
Marisnick
Baxter
Rosario
Lutz
Yeah – it’s risky, but the team will be young, fast, hungry, inexpensive and can pitch lights out.
In other words, it 1968…
That’s what I would do…
Good post.
Thanks!
Sounds wonderful. If you were Colorado or SF, would you do those trades? Yeah, me neither.
Colorado, yes. Wright’s numbers in Colorado are other-worldly.
Frisco, depends on the package, but Sandy gets paid for a reason.
this is not true. the minor leagues were in shambles before sandy came in.you can see the robust system that we are going to have in a few year churning out major league ready players.the philosophy of not only drafting but developing as well. pitchers like harvey wheeler are going to be handled in the correct way. i think the mets pitching on the farm is excellent. all you have to do is go out to brooklyn to see the arms the mets have in the minors. i know its a long way away, but the philosophy of being patient at the plate and developing pitcher through fastball command and complete repertoires is going to pay dividends. this is what sandy has done. Also you can see the mets are going to be aggressive in the latin america with the highest bonus being paid germen rosario, the shortstop. and this years draft is not indicative of their commitment. if you knew anything about the draft and the new cba its about quality not quantity and with two dominican teams the mets can focus on quality in the draft and have more dominican players in their system. look at rafael montero domingo tapia luis mateo and many others.
“the minor leagues were in shambles before sandy came in”
What a Crock of crap!
That SHAMBLES consisted of:
Reuben Tejada
Daniel Murphy
Ike Davis
Matt Harvey
Lucas Duda
Capt Kirk
Jordany Valdespin
Josh Edgin
Not to mention the yet to be seen:
Flores
Den Dekker
Mejia
Familia
Puello
Fulmer
Montero
Tapia
Lagares
Urbina
Vaughn
Gorski
Marte
Sorry but this MYTH that Sandy came into the organization with nothing but CRAP is just ludicrous!
It’s the guys he was left with that have done the best and all the guys he brought in other than Baxter and Hairston that have been a failure!
the farm was broken philosophically. harvey probably wouldve been rushed and not developed, same for hitter. the patient approach has helped tremendously throughout the farm. its not just players its development as well. omar rushed pitchers and hitter.
dan: you are correct. The development and staff’s and philosophy have as much to do with minor league success as anything.
And Metsie – all due respect but your sarcastic list trying to make it seem like the minors were so much better than what people said isn’t exactly an eye popping list.
You can’t brag about Ike, Duda, Kirk, Spin, Edgin right now. And Murphy while solid is known as a player without a position.
Lets not pretend that Duda, Kirk, Spin and Edgin are anything right now – and lets not ignore the fact it’s August 12th and Ike Davis is hitting .214.
Lets not pretend lke none of them are MLB playrs iehter as you and the slurpers have tried to suggest since Sandy got here…
Here is a question for you though…
If these guys are as bad as you think why hasn’t Sandy traded them off to get guys who are?
Is it because he thinks they ARE good and merely sitting on his hands until they prove it so he can take credit for what he inherited?
Lets just say for arguments sake Ike Davis was to be traded.
Exactly what type of market do you think there is for a .214 hitting 1B?
I’m sorry but you’re acting like mission accomplished because of Ike, Duda, Kirk, Spin, Tejada, Harvey, Murphy, Edgin.
We already heard the supposed trade offer for Murphy was Luke Greggerson. That tells you all you need to know about his value.
So two outfielders who just had to be sent back down to the minors recently, a .214 hitting 1B, a free swinging .250 hitting good pinch hitter, and two arms yet to prove much of anything.
I’ll concede Tejada all day, any day. But he’s not going anywhere.
Harvey we all hope works out.
Other than those two, there isn’t a young player on this team with real value to any other team. Not unless your goal is to fill the team with Luke Greggerson’s.
So lets just stop pretending like the prior regime did such a great job okay? If the season was from April-June then yes. Great job. Unfortunately, being a good baseball player takes more than 1 good month from Kirk or Duda.
You can’t forget about Niese and Gee.
You’re right about Niese. I can’t add any value at all to Gee now or in the future for the Mets until he comes back.
Still at best you’re talking about a 4/5 starter for Gee and probably a #3 for Niese.
Still not that impressive.
I’m not saying these guys are terrible. I am saying if they are how you determine the minors were built – then they are below average.
If you’re going to criticize Niese and Gee then you need to give the credentials of Sandy,DePo…in their last stops San Diego and the dodgers terrible the manager quit on Depoddesta thats how bad he was
Niese bad…? … If he’s so bad why did lord give him a long term deal. Uh Oh…… why did your lord give a long term deal to a bum????? Uh oh.., jessup about to be fired. The puppet screwed that one up all in the name of continuing to bad mouth the last GM. bad bad jessup. don’t answer your phone or texts… the lord is ticked at you.
First and foremost, DePo is in charge of amateur scouting. So they are different roles.
Saying Niese is a #3 starter isn’t saying he’s bad. It’s saying what he is. That’s not a bad thing.
Would he be the #3 starter in Colorado?
Well your boy though Hairston was worth a top prospect so I guess more than that!
You want to know what your problem is? Your judging young players who are just starting their major league careers like established major league veterans. What your not taking into account is that as these players gain more maturity and experinece in the major leagues, their perfromance will most likely improve.
Take Valdespin for example, your called him a .250 hitter – You don’t think as he matures and gains more experience he won’t improve on that average? I think he will. If Valdespin was a 30yr old, your assement of him would be right on the money, but since he’s young and has VERY little experience, what you said about him really is ridiculous.
I’m looking at it logically – I see a bunch of young guys who are just starting their careers some are having success and some are sturggling. And I’m saying as they mature and gain more experience, they’ll improve as players – Which is what happens most of the time. It seems like your saying the way they are now, is the way they will always be. Valdespin is hitting .250, so he’ll always be a .250 hitter. Niese is a number 3 guy right now, so he’ll always be a number 3 guy.
That’s what your argument sounds like, and that’s just a horrible way to judge young talent. If you judge young players like that, your going to be wrong almost all the time.
I want you to give me one reason why Niese can’t be more than a #3 in the future – He’s a big lefty that has very good stuff, he doesn’t walk people, he strikes guys out – What is he missing in your opinion? He has all the tools you need to be a very succesful starter.
IMO, it’s just a matter of time before he puts it all together. And remember, he’s still only 25.
I’m having a hard time understanding why calling Niese a #3 is such an insult.
I personally believe you can tell a lot about what a pitcher will be as they approach 100 starts. I began thinking this way when I heard Tom Seaver say it during a Mets broadcast about Mike Pelfrey. Niese is at 86, so by early next year he should hit 100. It’s not like we haven’t seen a lot of Niese.
Now look, Niese can improve. Nobody’s disputing that.
I think his ceiling is a good #3. I don’t find that to be insulting, and frankly – he has a lot more to show before anybody should ever say differently.
I guess the difference between us is you see being called a #3 starter as an insult. I don’t.
I didn’t say it was an insult. I wanted to know why you feel that way about him. Like I said, he has very good stuff, he can strike guys out, he doesn’t walk a lot of guys, and he’s only 25. So, why in your opinion feel he can’t be more than a #3?
Vinny – I didn’t see your questions until now. I’ll do my best to respond
If we’re conceding for a second that Niese is not a #1 guy then we’re talking about the difference between a #2 and a #3.
Not that big of a deal if you ask me.
But since you asked: To be a sure thing #2 starter I think you need to be a proven winner, and a proven work horse. Niese hasn’t had the health to prove he can be a legit #2 in my view and he also has not been able to carry his team on a consistent basis.
He is young, no doubt about it. But to me, if he’s your 2nd best starter then you’re probably weak at the bottom of the rotation.
For this team in order to be a #2 realistically you need to be practically an ace. Gio Gonzalez, Madison Bumgarner, Mat Latos, Tommy Hanson, James McDonald are guys I’d compare him to in terms of age/talent. And in every case I’d probably take the other guy over Niese.
There’s nothing wrong with being a #3 starter. He relies a ton on his defense by not striking hitters out and gets top 30 run support.
I just have to see more from him to say he’s anything better than a #3 – and because I don’t think that’s an insult I won’t hold my breath to find it.
But its ok for clown like jessup to pretend that Sandy the fraud has done a good job. LIE OF ALL TIME was frauds declaration that Harvery can’t be brought up because he wasn’t ready. Nwxt start Harvbey bombed and FRAUD brings him up. The lies are too num erous for all you clowns and liar lovers. You can’t defend him anymore and not be challenged by a ton of truth squad real Met fans. Maybe if fraud would invest in talent and solid coached instead of PR clowns like jessup we might someday be good. Can’t wait for the demise of fraud and all you cult worshippers.
Harvey probably would have been rushed? He was here after 1.5 seasons in the minors. He was rushed. You think they used the patient approach? He only has 245 innings in the minors, 40 starts. You make no sense.
top 10 picks that are college pitchers spend considerably less time on average than matt harvey did. again u have to know what you are talking about.
So youre saying and speculating Minaya would have rushed Harvey from draft to majors with no minors? Got it.
Pelfrey being in the minors for half a season. That could’ve happened to Harvey
fulmer and montero are sandy guys. get your fact straight.
Fumer and Montero were not left here. They were brought in here in 2011. Way to know your farm system.
They are taking this philosophy of patience at the plate to the extreme because the book is out on them now and all you have to do is be able to throw a first pitch strike and you will have the Mets hitters in the hole. I am all for patience and not swinging at bad pitches but the number of times this year they took the first pitch right down the middle is too many too count.
As for stockpiling. They had 2 of the top 100 players in the minors. Thats it. And who makes that list next year besides Wheeler? They do have some promising arms in Brooklyn but those guys are what, 3-4 years away at least. Where are the bats? Gecchini is projected to be a .280 hitter with 10 homers. Big deal, lets not make him out to be the second coming of Jeter or AROD. Nimmo has shown nothing. Flores is a man without a position. This team is going to stink for the next 2- 3 years at least, and that is assuming some of the pitchers developed and they start spending.
“they have kept to their philosophy and approach and have begun to stockpile their minor league system with promising talent”
STOCKPILE?
Stockpile is supposed to mean accumulating more than you need or your fair share in case of an emergency or shortage.
I would love to see a list of all the guys they have stockpiled…
Wheeler and what else?
(this is the question all the Sandy Slurpers avoid like it’s radioactive!)
So far they have in two years acquired a year and a half worth of thier fair share draft picks, and made one trade to get a Pitcher.
Thats not stockpiling it’s just biding your time waiting for someone stupid to sell you gold for a buck an ounce!
I would love to see a list of all the guys they have stockpiled…
2011, Wheeler, Nimmo, Fulmer, Verrett, Pill, Mazzonni, Evans, Muno, Taijeron, Frenzel, Lawley, Pron, Tuschak, Thurber, Montero, Mateo, Cessa, Panteliodis, Bradford, Leathersich, Budgell, Montgomery, Marquez, Gant, Gsellman, Carillo, Clark, Diehl,, Sheppard, Hauptman, Fontanez, Zurcher, Leyva, Lugo, Hutson, Missgman, Emmons.
2012, Cecchini, Plawecki, Reynolds, Koch, Kaupe, Rodriguez, Welch, Flexen, Nido, Welch, Oswalt, Sewald, Taylor, Whalen, Bowman, Sabol, Vanderheiden, Peterson, Massie, Leroux, Jeff Reynolds.
Do you need a list of IFA’s too?
If that’s stockpiling, don’t all teams stockpile?
Cutting and pasting a team’s draft signings is evidence of what to you exactly?
Is this unique only to the Mets?
I dont feel that it is.
Kevin he asked for a list of players that the FO has stockpiled and I gave it to him. No I don’t need to copy and paste I actually know who’s in our system and when they got there.
Don’t forget
Named Tommy Tanous director of amateur scouting. Promoted Chris Becerra to director of international scouting, Jim D’Aloia to director of professional scouting, Doug Thurman West Coast scouting supervisor, Tim Fortugno professional scout and Hector Rincones to Venezuelan supervisor. Named Ron Romanick minor league pitching coordinator, Tom Clark and Bryn Alderson professional scouts, Mike Silvestri South Florida-Puerto Rico scout, Jim Bryant North Florida-Georgia scout, Kevin Roberson Arizona-New Mexico-Colorado-Nevada scout and Jarrett England Ohio-Kentucky-Tennessee scout and Ash Lawson special assignment scout.
Overhauling your minor league system is more than just who you draft. It’s the philosophy and people you hire to find, develop and work with the talent as well.
He also hired his son and nephew, and the person responsible for Nimmo pick quit soon after. You think all GMs don’t bring in their own people? Think again.
I don’tknow who is nephew is, but people say “he hired his son,” in a way to make it seem like his son is not qualified for a job. His son has been a pro scout for the last 5 years in Oakland. So why wouldn’t he hire him? It’s not like he’s Tommy Boy and needs a job.
Of course GM’s hire their own guys, but that’s a lot of NEW guys AFTER Alderson’s 1st year on the job. A total restructure of the minor league system and scouting… which is a goal of this organization to do. So I’m not gonna ignore it when he actually does make changes.
If you search for similar moves by Minaya from day 1 until the end you’ll find (excluding on field coaches)
Named Tony Bernazard and Sandy Johnson special assistants to the general manager;
Named Russ Bove amateur scouting director; Bryan Lambe coordinator of amateur scouting; Rudy Terrasas assistant amateur scouting director; and Doug Gasaway and Fred Mazuca area scouting supervisors. Ramon Pena baseball operations consultant. Named Wayne Krivsky special assistant to the general manager. Named Terry Collins Minor League Field Coordinator.
That’s what, 6 years of “bringing in your own guys.” The Mets are CLEARLY overhauling the farm from top to bottom. So just acknowledge it is happening, rather than try to make excuses. Because this isn’t normal. Most teams do not need a brand new scouting department with a new GM.
As for MacDonald he left to join Josh Byrnes in SD whom he worked with in Arizona. It’s not like he packed his bags and left out of hatred for the organization.
MacDonald said this when he left by the way
I felt good on two fronts,” MacDonald said. “One, the players. And, two, the process. I think the process of being open to scouting all players — geographically, high school, college — and being able to take some risks in taking some high upside guys. We did that with Nimmo and Fulmer, and we took high school guys we liked and college guys we liked. And now I think our staff, which is geared up and ready for 2012 — one of the better staffs in baseballs — knows all (amateur) players are in play. So when you show up at the ballpark, if anything they know the Mets have a chance to draft and sign any of those players. I think that will bode well for the Mets organization for years to come.”
We signed like seven young high school arms, which this organization hadn’t done before. We hope we hit on all seven of them. Odds are that’s not going to happen, but each one of those guys brings something to the table that says, ‘This guy is going to be a major league starting pitcher.’ They’re all young. They all have the ingredients — size, arm strength, arm action, delivery. Some of them you’re just waiting for the velocity to come. Others you’re waiting for the breaking ball to come. But (Matt) Budgell (10th), and (Craig) Missigman (37th), and (John) Gant (21st), and (Robert) Gsellman (13th), and (Christian) Montgomery (11th), I’m telling you what, that’s the way to do it. And I think that’s the way the Mets will continue to do it even after I’m gone.”
Omar was so bad Alderson tried to keep him on his staff…lol…he couldnt be that bad…got job offers immediately from better run organizations.
Jeff Wilpon is the VP because he is a great business man, or baseball mind???
NONE OF THE ABOVE…He got it cause Daddy gave him the keys and he has meddled in previous gm’s affairs not sure if he is still doing so but i imagine yes since he is VP still
You should edit that reply to say “Hired then Ignored by not signing….”
overhauling the system with sandy cultists doesn’t make the team better, it fills the team with a bunch of useless yes men, just like you jessup and fellow cultists.
Notice how you only have half a list for 2012 compared to evry other team in the MLB!
Thats not stockpiling!
and not signing a 2nd round pick doesnt mean you lose it. the mets will be picking up the same pick in the 2012 draft. so it could be that teddy is a bust while this other pick becomes a player. u never know. too early to lament the fact that they didnt sign him.
And what about the other half of the draft he failed to sign?
All not signing your picks does is delay the day that you can no longer use the Minor leagues as an excuse for sitting on your hands due to a lack of desire to spend money!
its about quality not quantity. well see how it turns out and the future careers of all these players but futile to say because they didnt sign half the players its a failure. was a weak and shallow draft and with the new cba slotting, tough to get good player late ala phil evans. so cant say its a failure or success till you give it time.
no stockpiling is about QUANTITY!
Stockpiling and quality are not synonymous, Dan. In fact they are two opposing philosophies.
Good points to think about in your article. I do concur that they seem to be operating under a cloud of fear. It’s like playing poker scared which for a NY market should never be the case. This is where the ‘snake bitten’ owners appear to have an input unfortunately. It was an excuse during the clawback litigation not now. Maybe they’ll be more aggresive when the Org. has an excess of minor league chips and can afford to trade some. Meanwhile, how much can they depend on fan loyalty while they render themselves irrelevent. That is the worse case scenario when the fans just don’t care anymore and have better things to do. What players want to play for them with that kind of fan base which leads to overpaying just like previous times (Wash, rinse and repeat as needed). This off season it’s time to roll the dice spend some money and make some trades especially in light of hosting the All Star game.
The owners can still suck. If the mets are staying the course it is because these owners finally realized that they should dtop interfering. They do not deserve credit, however, for letting themselves get mixrd up in a mess that made their payroll flexibility go away. I cannot believe that anybody who lookecd at this organization when Sandy and Co. came in thought they would be ANYWHERE by year 2 or even year 3.
2013 will be more of the same as 2012.
When Bay and Johan’s contracts come off the books end of next season – and hopefully with some profits made from the ASG, the Wilpons might have some money to spend on this team.
Until then, we’ll be just treading water.
There’s a reason this organization didn’t offer it’s best home grown SS a contract before letting him go to FA. They can spin it any way they want but it was about the money and nothing but the money – or lack thereof.
You can’t burn both ends of the same candle. You can’t blame Wilpon when things go awry if Sandy Alderson is “staying the course”, right? It seems too many fans want it both ways. Not only is that hypocritical as well as biased, but you lose all credibility in the process
*************
Not exactly sure what you’re trying to say here.
IMO, nothing will change as long as the Wilpons own this team and the Mets are broke. Doesn’t matter who is in the FO. Broke is broke. If anyone thinks that the Wilpons tried to hand the FO some 50 MIL dollars last off season and they said ‘no thank you, we’d rather nickle dime this team’, I’d like some of what you’re smokin’.
Bottom line is the plan is designed to save the team for the Wilpons and their ‘legacy’. Nothing more. No conspiracy. Get costs under the amount they can afford to spend. Period.
And because you are aware of the reality of it all you are considered a slurper. SMH.
This. Oh wait, that is what slurpers say…
1. The fact is that none of us really *knows* what deals Sandy turned down for Hairston or anyone else. I realize that is frustrating for bloggers or posters who want to rant, but it’s hard to critique a decision you really don’t know about. Sandy said something about no team’s offering even one of their top-30 prospects. It’s OK with me that he turned that down. Like everyone else, I would have liked to see Hairston or someone else moved in order to get something we could be even a little excited about. There is no hard evidence to suggest that that was available.
2. One of the rules of thumb that makes sense to me is that you should meaningfully enter the FA market (or trade for a high-salary, high-impact player) when you are close to being a championship-caliber team. The Mets are not that. You get to that point with player development and modest acquisitions.
3. The bottom line is, are you willing to endure the 3-5 years that history demonstrates is almost always necessary to get from baseball irrelevance to being a solid, contending team, not just for a year or two but over an extended period of time? There are those who say that that is never OK, ever, for a New York team; you always have to cut corners because “New York is a results town.” Well, maybe we should get with the program that most baseball fans all over the country have to live with. There’s a smart way to build something good that will last, and that unfortunately takes some time.
A few things
I AGREE that within 1-2 years MAX they have to be players in the market. However, they have to find a happy medium between being players and bidding against themselves and knowing when to walk away.
That is something a lot of fans refuse to acknowledge. Example, they were active with KRod but the truth is – they bid against themselves. The same goes for Castillo, Ollie P. They voluntarily handcuffed themselves to a pole.
This offseason, the Wilpon’s cannot use finances as an excuse. Some of us understand the difference between Winter 2011 and Winter 2012. We can try to come up with any story we want, but the truth is they had a giant financial question mark this winter and when your $ is in doubt – you don’t go on a spending spree.
The issue I have with this thought to spend spend spend – is what do you want to spend it on?
People want them to make trades – like it or not the Pagan deal was a creative trade. He traded a below average OF (knowing he had 5 or 6 other OF’s) for a reliever with a SOLID HISTORY.
That’s the kind of deals you want to make. Yet, he does it and he’s crucified because Ramirez has a fluke bad year.
The Mets realistically need C, 2-3 OF, 3-4 bullpen arms, and probably 2 SP. They need to retain Wright to show the franchise is stable – they need Ike to be the guy we all thought he’d be.
You’re not getting that in 1 winter.
I’m tired of reading or hearing fans call into shows saying they want the Mets to spend. Because it’s so generic. Tell me what you want. Because you don’t want them to spend for the sake of spending. That’s what got us to where we are today.
Behind the dish to me – you either go after Mike Napoli or Josh Thole and another low level veteran will be here. But there is clearly a risk with Napoli. He proved he CAN be a solid offensive threat but then proved the Angels right in 2012 by being a .220 hitter again. Other than him, you can maybe look at AJ Pierzynski if you want to add a veteran with some fire ala Paul LoDuca.
The outfield to me you’ve got Michael Bourn, BJ Upton, and Torii Hunter. Upton has last name appeal but hasn’t proven to be any threat offensively. Hunter is somebody I’d consider because again he adds a veteran presence to this team which badly needs proven players. Other than those 3, who else are you going after?
There isn’t really a starting pitcher I can see being worth a big contract. So do you want to add Joe Blanton? That’s fine if you do – but he’s not a flashy sign.
The bullpen is going to consist of Ramirez, Edgin, Francisco, and Parnell. So you’re rolling the dice with anybody you go after.
Sometimes the best action is inaction. I understand it’s frustrating because the Mets were SO close to glory for 3 years and now we’re back where we started pre 05.
It’s a tough road, but making decisions for the right reasons is something I have to hope is happening. I don’t have the right to know the financial situation of the Wilpon’s so I just have to hope it gets better and that some of the things holding this front office back get resolved.
The Mets realistically need C, 2-3 OF, 3-4 bullpen arms, and probably 2 SP.
You’re not getting that in 1 winter.
They will have had 3 winters, not 1.
I understand that, but lets stop pretending like the financial situation or stability of the Mets owners in Winter 2012 was the same as Winter 10 or 11.
It wasn’t. We can act like the whole Madoff thing didn’t matter – but open your eyes for a second and think logically about how that would effect your own business.
People stomped their feet when Heath Bell was signed. How’d that $ work out? Say what you want about the Francisco deal, I’d take it any day over Bell’s deal.
Jose Reyes, fine – homegrown I get it. But for the money? Miami is getting 2007 Jose Reyes except 38 less stolen bases.
There’s spending, and there’s spending wisely and not handcuffing yourself.
I agree they need to start being players, but they don’t need to spend money just to spend it. I’d rather half the fan base be angry than deal with another Bay, Perez, Castillo, Alou, KRod contract situation.
Well then just say that. Dont say we cant fill 10 things in one winter and insult our intelligence, what are you trying to prove by saying that? If it’s just lack of money then get a baboon to be the GM and lets stop saying this current GM has a game plan when he doesn’t..
Another jessup book of BS. Keep up the bad work, lord sandy will give you another box of popcorn as a Christmas bonus, oh wait jessup doesn’t think people of the Jewish persuasion can understand such things. So sweet that you are stiull part of his cult. He must pay well for being a puppet.
Dont sell yourself short Joe, this was a lot more than a rant and you pointed out a lot of things that are being widely ignored and under-reported. Great post.
There are cities with teams that are ok with the year after year rebuilding and limited payroll but not New York and not Met fans. Kansas City, Pittsburgh, and Cub fans are used to this but not the Mets. The Yankees know this. The mets are a train off the tracks and damn it none of these guys know how to get it back on the track. They didn’t give up on ’12. they surrendered and there is a difference.
Nice piece, Joe. Lots to consider as we conclude 2012–ownership, GM, coaches, players…
First, I wrote at outset of series with Braves that we are dead if we don’t take series. So we’re dead. Now, we have just finished one month of horrible baseball; it is the month that has typified the season that we were supposed to have had when it all got started back in April. However, we stood the expectations on their heads.
Second, until about a month ago Keith and Ron would opine from time to time that we were just a few players away from being really competitive. When they got really happy, they would make comparisons to the ’83 and ’84 Mets. Any of you heard that talk in a while. This leads me to the
Third (point): the Mets need to show that they can finish 2012 as true fighters despite all of the recent setbacks and limitations. So now is the ultimate test for the coaching staff and the players–that is, does everything go into the crapper, or does the team try to grab a hold of itself and rally–somehow rally to play out the second half of August and month of Sept. at .500.
Four, as for DW. Wright will stay only for two reasons, including A. the Mets pay him what he feels he’s worth over a desired period of time; and B. they make him a commitment that their absolute goal is to vie for a championship within three years–to surpass the greatness of ’06-’08 era. Lastly,
Fifth, does the F.O. look the Mets Nation in the eye come October and say, here is our plan, this what we’ve done, this is how we’ve failed, this is what we do going forward; we are committed to winning, etc. Then the $ goes where the mouth is, and you go after two-three biggies. Then you cut the fat, eliminate the scrubs and malcontents.
You cannot compete with Bay, Torres, Thole, Acosta, Young. You need to consider if Santana’s greatness has flickered. Above all, get a serious catcher and a talented center fielder. One of those two guys has to be a bona fide leadoff hitter with speed.
By 1983, I remember thinking we started to look like something by late in the season. By the summer of ’84, you as a fan felt the Mets could go all the way. Right now I don’t feel similarly at all. It’s time to turn the franchise around, and communication on all levels to the fans would surely help.
Wright is as good as gone. Its going to cost 6 yrs and over 12 million. And they will go nowhere near that number. They will lowball him and then say they tried.
Maybe Sandy will actually spring for the box of chocolates this team.
” Fifth, does the F.O. look the Mets Nation in the eye come October and say, here is our plan, this what we’ve done, this is how we’ve failed, this is what we do going forward; we are committed to winning, etc. Then the $ goes where the mouth is, and you go after two-three biggies. Then you cut the fat, eliminate the scrubs and malcontents”
This is my biggest issue with this front office. They don’t communicate their plan with the fanbase. This isn’t a small market team where you can go unoticed and implement your plan without communicationg with your fanbase. This is NY where baseball is 365 days a year. The season never ends with baseball fans.
We’d like to know WTF is going on and what the plan is going forward. We’re not asking to tell us who you’re targeting in the FA market or who you plan on trying to trade for. All we ask is to communicate with your fansbase the direction your taking us in.
If they came out from day one and told us they’re rebuilding and it’s going to take a while then I think even the lunatic fringe would have a little more patience. Instead they came out right from the get go and told us they expect to compete in 2011 and they’re not punting in 2012.
All they did was go out and sign the least expensive players they could get their hands on in 2011 because they had no payroll flexibility and then say they’re not punting in 2012 and only bring in 3 relief pitchers.
I enjoyed reading this piece…nice job Joe
Good rant. As I have mentioned, the proof will be in the pudding. Will they keep Wright? Will they augment the team in 2013 and 2014 with good free agents? Will they draft overslot?
We’ll see.
WOW!!! Why is everyone so down on Sandy Alderson???
He’s doing the best he can, we should all be excited he just acquired Chris Carpenter from the Cardinals….wait…. oh shish-kabobs false alarm its journeyman Drew Carpenter from the jays…smh….more scrap junk
Well at least we got an awesome concert postgame….Christian band “MercyMe” …uhhhhh oh! I guess it wasnt so great for Jews,Catholics,Atheist,Muslims,Bhuddists etc etc….lol this organization doesnt have a clue…. The only thing that seems right was the bands name…MERCY-ME ……have mercy on mets fans
I have taken a wait and see approach with SA, but his July inactions speak volumes. First off sitting on his hands while the bullpen destroyed the season was inexcusable.
On the other side of that coin not moving Hairston based on some misplaced priority on finishing strong instead of using your scouts to find a usable piece is just asinine.
We could go on but many of these points have been exhausted on this site.
Sandy has gotta go.
On the other side of that coin not moving Hairston based on some misplaced priority on finishing strong instead of using your scouts to find a usable piece is just asinine.
Yes it was.
But when you consider his asking price it’s painfully clear why he is still here. That is not rebuilding.
We weren’t buyers or sellers, but at the same time we’re not rebuilding or competing.
We are stuck in a quagmire of confusion without the benefit of vision or a visionary to lead us there.
It’s called fear!
When your in a situation that you don’t know how to deal with, and any move could be the move that kills you…
The Body naturally knows it needs to make a move but since it has no direction merely vibrates between two different directions leaving the body itself to simply stay in one place and shiver!
That is probably the best description of what this FO has done for the last two years.
merely vibrated between directions, never actually picking one because any move made could be the move that exposes them as incompetent!
Alderson gets a pass for not being Omar Minaya. Plain and simple. We have a great ownership. The GM is the problem. Time to move on.
I knew not to take this post seriously when you said we have great ownership…Thats what you call great a group that gets mixed up in the Bernie Madoff scheme
You must think Frank McCourt and James Dolan are all time great owners…
LMAO…you cant make this crap up…Wilpons are great owners???? Hahahahaha!!! What have they done to be called great….They are however infamous after the Madoff ordeal
We have owners that neither you, nor I, nor Howard Megdal can do anything about. The Wilpons are here to stay as I’ve made clear all throughout the three year Madoff mess. My Mets friends who were so convinced this was their demise were dead wrong. All the steps the Wilpons took to avoid any financial burdens or legal entanglements were clearly stated by me on this site time and time again. You have a fanbase that is angry because they had their heads filled with unsubstantiated lies and accusations regarding their wealth, earnings and profit margins. You had even more lies being spread that they were somehow complicit. If they were, Picard would have never settled for peanuts after all these years. He had a whistle-blower who was a known professional prosecutorial witness as their only proof. It takes more than that to prove a case. As I said the attendance would not fall by 50% or more because of the stupid protests. It’s about even and it will remain that way no matter what Megdal said Friday. He is on some sort of a crusade I have no idea why, but he’s about as credible as $50 dollar bill with George Bush’s image on it. We cant do anything about the Wilpons and I wish all of you would stop harping on it. Mets fans should be debating two things; 1. The direction under Alderson and 2. The performance under Alderson. Debating that is healthier than debating the ouster of the Wilpons which will not happen. This team will be passed down to Jeff after Fred is gone, and then to Fred Jr. after Jeff is gone.
Sandy Alderson has been beyond terrible, he is not the 1st Mets gm to stink up the joint. At some point you have to come to the realization that there has been one constant presence through these tumultuous years and that is without a shadow of doubt the Wilpons.
Whether they will remain the owners of this team forever, are not doesnt give them an automatic pass from criticism.
Should Marlins fans give there owner Jeff Loria a pass??? Hell no….so why should mets fans? huh? Is it because they own the team.
You are basically saying the Wilpons are above blame solely based on the fact that they own the team. Which is absurd, if thats the case you should re-title this “Teflon Wilpons”.
Everyone gets the blame the Boss Wilpons and the Patsy Alderson
‘We cant do anything about the Wilpons and I wish all of you would stop harping on it’
We as fans can’t do anything about the FO but that doesn’t stop you from harping on them.
I thought this was an equal opportunity site.
srt, you’re missing my point entirely.
Okay lets talk about the Wilpons and be fair as you say.
Who can we replace them with, you know any billionaires?
Why would they be better?
What else can you say about the Wilpons that hasn’t already been said?
Megdal writes a weekly article on Capital New York about the Wilpons for those of you who need to feed your Wilpon addiction, but there’s never anything new to report.
Most owners are entrenched, most GMs are not.
It’s a certifiable fact that Alderson’s contract expires after 2014, which coincidentally is the year he said we’d have a championship caliber club that will be sustainable. His words, not mine.
Omar Minaya said he’d have the Mets in the post season in 5 years and got us there in 2. However it was not sustainable.
Alderson is almost at the half way point of his contract. So far the team has underwhelmed under his tenure and I see no signs that things have gotten better.
It is absolutely relevant to start discussing what he has or has not done and whether it’s time to start calling for some results or for his dismissal.
He was a risky choice to begin with. He hasn’t had a winning season in decades. He isn’t as progressive as some of the new and younger GMs.
What makes you think a GM shouldn’t be up for criticism?
Doesn’t he have to live up to expectations just like the players?
Owners dont have to live up to expectations because they pay all the bills and take all the risks.
GM’s however, do have to live up to expectations. Or at least move toward those expectations.
I’m sorry, but I don’t see a championship coming in 2014.
Whatever this is right now, it doesn’t feel right to me and it has nothing to do with the owners.
I bit my tongue for 18 months and haven’t levied any criticism on this front office. But ever since the draft I’m starting to feel that we’ve been deceived. I feel as though they haven’t been up front with us about a myriad of things. We’ve certainly shifted directions, but I fear it’s an even worse direction than we were heading in before.
I dont recall a GM that has mocked Mets fans’ misery like he has, whether it was saying he didn’t have enough gas money to go to the Winter Meetings or ripping fans for not voting Wright into the ASG. He threw his team under the bus on deadline day saying in light of the team’s poor performance why should they be buyers? On July 7th the Mets were 7 pr 8 games over .500 with a 3 1/2 game lead in the wild card. The team lost their closer, Johan began dealing with a dead arm, and he did nothing. His inaction sucked the life out of Terry Collins and the team. And to show up in the dugout on the day of the trade deadline with Snookie to say we probably wont do anything was a bit much.
We can revisit this on Opening Day in 2014, but I’m telling you that we’ll be no closer to a pennant in ’14 than we were in 2010 or 2009.
We have no way of knowing if new owners would be any better. But I can tell you one thing….they’d have money to spend on the team. The Mets are broke right now. Not sure why that’s so hard for some to grasp.
It’s all about saving the team for the Wilpons and nothing but right now. If not for Selig, Wilpons probably would have been forced to sell by now.
A 25 MIL loan for them by MLB that they needed an extension past the 12 months to pay back. One they tried to keep quiet.
A 40 MIL bridge loan to get them to minority investors that they needed just to cover expenses for this year.
The Wilpons made a deal with Selig, one that I believe included SA and the new FO.
All if it was designed to help the Wilpons hold on.
SA won’t be here long enough to see a championship.
Why do you think Omar was fired, BTW? IMO, it’s was part of the deal Selig made with the Wilpons.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
As I said, JC himself in the FO right now couldn’t save this team right now. With predicted down revenues again this year, I expect the payroll to be even lower next season. All we’ll be doing is treading water next season.
This article by Dave Searles sums it up better than I can. I agree with just about everything he says here:
http://blog.nj.com/mets/2012/08/what_should_we_expect_from_the.html
Hi SRT,
Thanks for the article.
But I think the author has ignored a lot of what has been raised by Joe D. and others. For example, he said:
“When 2014 arrives, Alderson will have had three drafts under his belt. His drafts should start to begin bearing fruit at that time. That is how he will be judged. If Alderson and his dream team front office have not stocked the minor leagues with high end talent, they will have failed.”
I think it is well worth adding that Alderson only signed half of his 42 draft picks in 2012. He eliminated the St. Lucie rookie team. He eliminated scouting in I think in the pacific rim altogether (could be a different region but nevertheless it is now one less area being scouted). That is not stockpiling or focusing on the future.
The author also said the Mets were playing over their head this year. That makes it two straight years playing over their heads into July. What that also means is that they were playing better than expected and could have surprised us more had the front office done something positive.
It also ignores the billion dollars the Wilpons owe. That dictates team decisions more than anything else.
A plan of just drafting kids, getting rid of most everyone else and starting from scratch is necessary for an expansion club – not one celebrating it’s fiftieth anniversary season.
Where did you see that SA eliminated the St. Lucie rookie team. I got the impression that was more a $$ decision, one suggested by that group they brought in to avoid bankruptcy.
Yes, I’ve read all the controversy surrounding only signing about half the draft picks. Since the new CBA rules, I’m not quite sure what the strategy might be with that. I don’t even know what the other 29 teams did with their draft picks in that regards either. It’s a head scratcher to me right now.
For the record as I’ve probably stated before….I didn’t think they had a shot in hell of post season last year and agreed with the KRod and Beltran trade. I think they had even less of a shot this year coming out of the ASB.
Not sure why you think this article ignores the money the Wilpons owe. I think it stated it pretty clearly, if not in detail.
Bottom line is this article mostly sums up my beliefs at this point. The Mets are broke, SA is just the messenger and he won’t be here long enough to see a championship in Flushing.
Only reason I commented on this post of Joe’s is I believe half the fan base continues to ignore the elephant in the room – which I happen to think is the driving point behind everything that has been done and will likely be done in 2013: The Mets are broke.
They eliminated the Gulf Coast team which less than half of the MLB teams still have a team in the GCL. The Mets are one of 4 teams that have 2 DSL teams and one of a few teams that have 2 short season A ball teams, Brooklyn and Kingsport. Bottom line is we still have more affiliates then a lot of teams and no fewer than any other team. I fail to see with the big deal is elimintating one affiliate when we still have as many as every other team and in some cases more.
Hi Fonzie,
That’s because the less draft picks signed means the less need for a rookie team in St. Lucie.
As others have pointed out, they signed half of their picks this past year. That’s roughly enough players to fill most of the roster of St. Lucie – if it still existed. In 2011, they didn’t sign 14 of their 40 picks. And since there were no monetary restrictions in 2011, they were still outspent by such big market teams as the Kansas City Royals and Pittsburgh Pirates.
And how much could it have cost, in the scheme of things, compared to the benefit of that player-development capacity to both, have signed more picks and to have kept the St. Lucie team? It is estimated the cost is somewhere between $400,000 and $1,000,000. That is, as most, about as much as it would cost them to carry two rookies on the major league roster. Rather a small amount considering the focus is on building from within with an emphasis on draft picks and minor league development.
http://www.nj.com/mets/index.ssf/2011/12/mets_to_drop_gulf_coast_league.html
“In 2011, they didn’t sign 14 of their 40 picks.”
Just a heads up I could be wrong but I think it’s actually 14 of 51 draft picks.
You’re right North, my mistake.
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=625045
Joe D — Well said. Life goes on outside the conclusions each of us reach, despite our attempts to influence others and occasionally nudge the facts. I’ve maintained a basically benign view of the Wilpons since to me the facts are more elusive than many of us acknowledge.
Des, you are right my friend. Nobody knows any of the facts, especially Megdal. The Mets are not a publicly owner company and if the Wilpons don’t want to open up their books for the fans, they don’t have to. While some of the team oriented finances are documents, their personal wealth which is very substantial is not open for prying eyes. Much like our own personal finances aren’t. Lots of blood was shed for this right.
FYI Mets fans CAN do something about the Wilpons…its called sales no money no team…but some fans as yourself arent interested in hitting rich owners where it hurts the most.
Hi BBLB,
How many fans didn’t renew their season tickets this year? And how often are we told the attendance is around 26,000 when it doesn’t even appear more than 15,000 are in the park? That means either those who bought tickets aren’t coming or that they are unable to re-sell their tickets, even at bargain prices, on stub hub.
I think the Wilpons want to hold onto owning the Mets so much that they don’t see it’s a losing battle. I of course agree with all those who say the only way out is to sell the team. The Wilpons will never get fan support until there is a whole new generation that won’t know of these dark days over than through what they read.
Leroy Brown, you are a dreamer.
Do you own any Mets jerseys or t-shirts?
Do you watch games on SNY, WPIX or even ESPN tonight?
Do you watch or go to Brooklyn Cyclones games?
Do you go to Mets.com?
Do you got to MLB.com?
Did you watch the All Star game?
Will you watch the post season?
When you can get all 10 million Mets fans to stop doing those things, maybe you’ll make a dent in the Wilpon’s pocketbooks.
Until then, take a huge whiff of the reality of the situation and stop reading Wilpon’s Folly.
We have great ownership?
You know we’re discussing the Wilpon’s Mets, right?
If yes, you must have been living under a rock these past few years.
As far as Megdal goes this guy has anti Wilpon agenda. Don’t forget this was the “professional” writer who campaigned to be the general manager of a team he covered while Omar Minaya was still in office. Then of course when he wrote that book of his and the Mets took away his credentials that put him into overdrive. Can’t go by him at all.
I could not find any information about this on the internet either in his interviews or biographical information so this all conjecture on my part, however, the question must be asked – how come he was not hired by another club for seven years before becoming the CEO at San Diego?
Certainly, such a baseball genius who was also ahead of his time would be hotly sought after. And it would be thought that one who “built” dynasties would be itching to be back in that position rather than working as an executive vice president for baseball operations in the commissioner’s office?
As one can see from the attached list of general managers, only two didn’t continue with other teams for more than a year or so absence except for Batlimore’s current G.M. and the one at Minnesota who stepped down due to be “burned out”.
And even though the biographies might be incomplete, they all had years of experience in baseball before reaching the GM position. As said, the bios linked to the attached are incomplete – for example, it doesn’t mention that Brian Cashman started as an intern with the Yankees in 1986, making it appear he was hired as an Assistant G.M. with little prior experience. It also doesn’t mention Theo Epstein’s years with the Padres before coming over to Boston. Nor did it mention that Andrew Friedman of Tampa Bay got a baseball scholarship from Tulane University.
It seems Sandy Alderson was the only one who came in cold. He is also being alluded to by some here as almost immediately being the one behind the baseball decisions. One out of thirty? Again, if he could accomplish such feats coming out of nowhere, teams would have been knocking down at his door wanting to hire him.
And why was it that he had to be coaxed by Bud Selig to apply for the Mets GM position? Where is his baseball blood to be involved first hand with building teams?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/List_of_current_Major_League_Baseball_general_managers
Hey Joey, what information it is that you are looking for?
My piece is original, so you won’t really find what I wrote anywhere else but here.
Michael Baron’s comments were his and taken straight from his post this morning that I linked to.
I could not find any information about this on the internet either in his interviews or biographical information so this all conjecture on my part, however, the question must be asked – how come he was not hired by another club for seven years before becoming the CEO at San Diego?
Joey now I understand. And actually that’s a great question, but it’s one of those times where you may not want to look for an answer. The truth might frighten you. Hey, even Minaya was employed again within the year – and how ironic that he’s in San Diego cleaning things up over there.
Well here is the answer and it tells you everything you need to know about MLB and Sandy…
Bud Selig and the MLB put the guy who had GMed what could be the most juiced up team in PED history in charge of rooting PEDs out of the Latin American market!
Do you think they gave him that job because they really wanted to rid Latin America of PEDs?
Or did they give it to him because he pretty much does nothing REALLY WELL and they knew he couldn’t tell the difference between a PED or IUD.
As I type this one of our Good Day releievers is being replaced by another one for giving up two runs instead of getting the one out he needed to win the game!
Yep this guy is a genius!
He will accomplish the goal most here want to see…
The Wilpons will be forced to sell because he is going to fiddle while this team burns to the ground and when he is done there won’t be enough money or drafted talent to even field a team!
Hi Joe,
Yes, the thought suddenly occurred to me this evening – where was Sandy Alderson all this time other than being the CEO (which is not the general manager) in San Diego. That’s why I looked up the track record of all the other major league general managers – to see if it is common for one calling the shots on player personnel not to latch on with another team for any equivalent length of time. It was only the case for two of 29 others – and one of them left due to burn out.
Too many times I have been told there were others like Sandy Alderson who did not have a background in the game and yet in just a short matter of time through analytical study were able make decisions regarding draft picks, trades, building up the minor league system and signings. That is why I also looked up the experience each had via that link and further surfing on the web for more extensive biographical information. What is found defuncts the myth that any of them came in with little background and through sabre metrics went on to build teams. All had baseball related backgrounds, most of them with extensive baseball experience except for Andrew Friedman who went to Tulane University on a baseball scholarship. His father also played baseball for Tulane so obviously he came from a baseball family.
Again, the one with the least experience – Friedman – still had a baseball background and to get a scholarship from Tulane University’s prestigious baseball program is nothing to look down upon. Theo Epstein is another name often mentioned as coming in from outside the box but nobody pointed out his starting as an intern with the Baltimore Orioles in 1992 and thus having ten years working himself up and learning. Same circumstances with Brian Cashman – he started out as an intern in the Yankee organization a decade before he replaced Bob Watson. Just like a baseball scholarship from Tulane University, an internship from a major league club is nothing to gloss over. Those aren’t handed out to just anybody.
Sandy Alderson is the only one who came in with no baseball experience. He is also the only one to not continue serving clubs in some major capacity over a period of more than a year. Yet, if he is the one who revolutionized the game, he certainly would have been sought after by many clubs after he left Oakland.
“Yes, the thought suddenly occurred to me this evening – where was Sandy Alderson all this time other than being the CEO (which is not the general manager) in San Diego.”
Working for Major League Baseball? That’s like saying if Joe Torre manages again in 8 years we’ll say “well why didn’t he have another manager gig since the Yankees one?” It’s literally the same job.
Stop with this “all he did was monitor PED in Latin America.” Because all you or Metsie prove with that is you have no idea what Alderson did with MLB.
Here – In his role with Major League Baseball, Alderson oversees Baseball Operations, Umpiring, On-Field Operations and Security and Facility Management. In addition, he is in charge of various special projects involving international play, including Major League Baseball’s participation in the 1999 Pan American Games, the historic games with the Cuban National Team in the spring of 1999 and the 2000 Olympic Games in Sydney where Team USA won the Gold Medal.
Here is Joe Torre’s role: In this capacity, he oversees areas that include Major League Operations, On-Field Operations, On-Field Discipline and Umpiring. He serves as the Office of the Commissioner’s primary liaison to the general managers and field managers of the 30 Major League clubs regarding all baseball and on-field matters.
I suggest you read the Extra 2% if you’re going to try and brag about Andrew Friedman’s baseball background. Anybody here could have played baseball – does that mean they are equipped to scout/run an organization?
You’re trying to paint a general picture – you’re trying to act like people think Cashman for example came off the streets and was hired. Nobody is saying that. You’re missing the point.
Cashman, Epstein, Friedman, Daniels, Hoyer, Byrnes and others were not baseball insiders. Being an intern in a pro organization doesn’t make you an insider. I was an intern in a pro baseball organization – does that make me qualified? (don’t answer that).
GM’s in the past were a part of an “old school” network. It wasn’t until risks of bringing younger people in with different ideas that these guys would get jobs.
Their skill set was different from the days of old baseball men being GM’s, they thought differently than the rest – and the door was opened for them because of what happened in Oakland.
This is not something you can deny because people like Epstein will tell you that is what happened. Heck, Epstein GOT the job because Beane turned it down.
Thought just occurred to jessup. lol….. actually the fax machine sent the BS directly from the Met GM office.
that quote is actually from Joey D – good try though. You fail again
Hi Jessep,
“Here – In his role with Major League Baseball, Alderson oversees Baseball Operations, Umpiring, On-Field Operations and Security and Facility Management. In addition, he is in charge of various special projects involving international play, including Major League Baseball’s participation in the 1999 Pan American Games, the historic games with the Cuban National Team in the spring of 1999 and the 2000 Olympic Games in Sydney where Team USA won the Gold Medal.”
You are absolutely right when it comes to listing Sandy Alderson’s accomplishments. Nobody disagrees with you on all that he has done. But all that related to his legal and business expertise. None of that has to deal with player personnel decisions, ie., drafting players, developing a minor league system, making trades, signing and releasing players, etc.
“I suggest you read the Extra 2% if you’re going to try and brag about Andrew Friedman’s baseball background. Anybody here could have played baseball – does that mean they are equipped to scout/run an organization? ”
I did not brag about Friedman’s lack of experience. I specficially made it a point to refer to Friedman as the only other general manager with relatively little professional experience to so quickly move into such a position. It was also important to bring out that he got a scholarship from Tulane University’s highly regarded baseball program to show that he did have a background in the sport, abiet limited. But I was not bragging – I was showing how he was the exception and not the rule.
“You’re trying to paint a general picture – you’re trying to act like people think Cashman for example came off the streets and was hired. Nobody is saying that. You’re missing the point.”
NOBODY IS SAYING THAT? I can’t believe you just said that, Jessep. What about all the arguments Metsie, I and others have been having with those who claim that Sandy Alderson was able to come in cold (Sandy’s own word) with no professional knowledge of the game and was quickly able to make draft pick selections and build those great Oakland teams? Have you not been following the debate regarding Sandy Alderson and Bill Rigney? I won’t name names but those people make it a point claiming computer analysis enabled Sandy to do those things after one year being the team’s legal counsel.
“Their skill set was different from the days of old baseball men being GM’s, they thought differently than the rest – and the door was opened for them because of what happened in Oakland”.
That contradicts “you’re trying to act like people think Cashman for example came off the streets and was hired” because that is exactly what happened with Sandy Alderson.
“Cashman, Epstein, Friedman, Daniels, Hoyer, Byrnes and others were not baseball insiders. Being an intern in a pro organization doesn’t make you an insider. I was an intern in a pro baseball organization – does that make me qualified? (don’t answer that). ”
Being an intern is an essential step for many in all fields of business and law. Just ask Chris Gardner.
And as far as baseball is concerned, the attached article, general as it is, stresses the importance of internship with a major league team. A quote from it:
“Get an internship with a major league club. This will allow you to make connections within the team, as well as earn valuable experience. Remember that because of the broad scope of a general manager’s job, basically anything that you get an internship doing will result in valuable experience for your future position at the top of the franchise.
Accept any job the franchise offers you. Even when working in the front office, few people start working in the majors. Your flexibility in accepting a position will make climbing your way to the top easier. Not only does it open more doors, you will also prove yourself to be a person willing to make sacrifices for the good of the team. Nothing shows your willingness to do whatever it takes quite like moving from Los Angeles to Witchita to oversee some seemingly minor part of a farm team.”
http://www.ehow.com/how_7420608_become-general-manager-major-leagues.html#ixzz23R65RNcP
“Working for Major League Baseball? That’s like saying if Joe Torre manages again in 8 years we’ll say “well why didn’t he have another manager gig since the Yankees one?” It’s literally the same job”
What you fail to mention in your hypothetical argument is one very important fact: Torre RETIRED as a manager after more than thirty years of managing and then went to work in the executive office.
….. and that was my point. Who sought out Sandy Alderson to be in charge of baseball personnel matters after he left Oakland? Nobody. He was the CEO in San Diego – not the general manager. Even after Torre was fired by the Mets he was sought after by many clubs.
The worst part about the collapse and losing are all these whining posts (myself included).If this miserable front office could put a team together that could stay in a pennant race none of this whining, woe is us, Minaya is better than Alderson and vice versa crap would be the only thing we could talk about.We could actually talk about a pennant race and the playoffs.How nice ould that be ?.Maybe some day…..
Hi Joe,
Oh, I wasn’t referring to anything that you wrote or didn’t include (great article BTW).
It was simply that before opening up the question that Sandy Alderson was not sought by other clubs to run their baseball matters, I wanted to be sure of my information – or lack of information – had validity. In all that I found, there was no mention that Sandy was ever offered this or that by any other club other than San Diego (where he was the CEO, not the GM) or that he had turned down these offers to remain in the commissioner’s office.
I did not want to infer he was not sought after by other clubs if there was evidence to show otherwise. Credibility in research, you know. If somebody can post evidence (not conjecture) to the contrary, I will be more than happy to retract the question.
No problem Joey.
Wow! Been less than two years and your freaking out! Everyone is so impatient it drives me crazy! Part one was to cut the payroll and dead weight and we are on our way to doing that and we picked up a potential ace while we did it! We have so much talented pitching in the minors that once Johan and Bay are gone we will have an overflow of cash to buy those pieces u speak of without killing our farm system! You should wait till after the free agent signing to say we aren’t gonna do anything. We will add some talent at an affordable price this offseason an then next offseason is when we will make a big splash cause that’s when we will have two huge contracts finally off the books! That’s the plan but u impatient new Yorkers can’t see it! U speak of the Yankees an forget how don mattingly’s entire career was a waist cause they sucked! Lots of time to buil the farm!! I trust our gm and think he’s gonna build our mets a lot faster than the damn Yankees were built in the 80′s and 90′s!! If anything, we should have been trading anyone we could last month instead of trading our future for some false hopes that we could win something this year! 2 more years people!!! Slow your role!!
Yeah we all know things don’t always go as planned, but come on now, with all the problems the mets are having, ownership could have done something by the way of trades, really like sending bay to the marlins yes it should have happened. Next year will be worse, why? well the wilpons will cut payroll even more next, cus they want all the money for themselves, this is the game the owners have been playing with the fans. They lost all of the mets money on madoff, so now they are looking for ways to cut corners to gain back the money, they think we are stupid. This is what’s happening. Instead of building a championship team to contend for years, the wilpons are making a bridge of taking the fans money to fill their pockets up again, and them make us believe they really care and try to bring in talent again, Guess what, Please finally sale of our mets to people who really want us to shine and not play second best to the yankees. what they should have done, they didn’t. Like i said I could run this team better what they got now. The owners should be ashame of themselves.
I rest my case.The losing has made most of the posters on this site nuts.
And the Kool Aid Sandy has been serving has made the rest of you brain dead!
Speaking of Lord Sandy, his 6 million dollar closer almost blew a 4 run lead tonite.
If you agree with the premise that MLB has given the Mets the “OK” to field a non-competitive team over the next several years beginning in 2011 then it’s easier to accept and understand Sandy Alderson’s responsibilities and role as General Manager.
Have we forgotten that the Met ownership needed to borrow money from the League to meet expenses? Have we forgotten that the Met ownership needed to ask for a 2nd handout from MLB to meet expenses again nine months later?
Just who do people think Sandy Alderson answers to? MLB? or Met ownership?
I have been writing this since December 2010. But apparently people are still not accepting that winning is not the 1st priority of Met ownership right now. The 1st priority of Met ownership is rehabilitating their finances.
‘I have been writing this since December 2010. But apparently people are still not accepting that winning is not the 1st priority of Met ownership right now. The 1st priority of Met ownership is rehabilitating their finances.’
I’m right there with you on this.
The first priority of every team is being financially stable. It is not something unique to the Mets. And they all want to win, it just has to be within the financial constraints (and teams have a longer term horizon than Fans most of the time, which does lead to planning for a sustained future vs. “all in” the current year at times).
and MLB does not have to give permission to a team to rebuild (which I assume is what you mean by fielding a non-competitive club). The only time I can remember they did anything about a team spending money is with the Marlins, when they weren’t even spending up to their revenue sharing amount (that is when they extended Johnson). The Mets have a $90 million payroll, and don’t get revenue sharing. MLB can’t do a damned thing about making them be “competitive” (even though they were up through the ASB).
LOL, Well, i gotta admit, if i ever wanna write an article it’s gonna be about sandy alderson or sabermetrics. that way i’ll get a lot of comments and internet hits…
My goodness, whether some people admit it or not, they sure LOVE sandy alderson and are willing to defend his honor at all cost..
by “some people” I assume you mean Greg P, since he is the only person doing anything even close to that?
No, i mean a lot of you… the Sandy slurpers and the guys who predicted him to be some kind of genius, the ones who posted articles praising him for having a good day and for actually saying that losing it’s ok because we get better draft picks etc..
to those who also have said on record that a losing season was a good season..
those who have applauded him do nothing to help this team while we had a punchers chance to at least make a push for the playoffs.. etc…
Your argument that the Wilpons share no blame is illogical. What if Alderson is a good GM, and the Wilpons give him a $30M budget for payroll, and the team is .500 every year. That’s Alderson’s fault, not the broke owners?
Not to mention the fact that MLB sent Alderson to the Mets. To pretend it was the Wilpons idea to hire him is disingenuous.
Met fans hate the Wilpons because they are bumbling idiots who don’t understand baseball, New York City, ponzi schemes, and worst of all, they don’t even like the Mets. Our esteemed owner still has wet dreams about the Dodgers.
If you hate Alderson, fine, but don’t act like that absolves the Wilpons. A fish rots from its head.
I think you started a trend Joe. Since you posted this, today MetsBlog, Martino, Post, Newsday and who knows who else has followed your lead. It’s about time we start looking at the the awful job Alderson has done so far! The honeymoon is over!