3
2012
3 Up & 3 Down: Wanted Dead Or Alive Edition
An article by Gregg Hopps
If 3 & 3 were to borrow a page from the long running children’s show Sesame Street, this edition would be sponsored by the letters P & U. Those two letters sum up how the Mets performed in this three game series. We were so hard pressed to come up with 3 “Ups”, our guys from SNY make their season debut in that category.
3 Up:
1) R.A. Dickey: I honestly thought R.A. Dickey had a shot to make Met’s history on Monday night by pitching the first no hitter in franchise history. Early in the game Dickey held the Astros hitters in check with his knuckle ball. Then the Astros broke through scoring 3 runs and knocking R.A. out of the game. Yet another good effort by a Met starter that went to waste. In fact, it was the only good outing by a starter the entire series.
2) David Wright: David Wright looks like a different player this season. He looks more relaxed, and he is hitting the ball very well. He’s also acting like a leader. This is David Wright’s team and he’s acting that way. Good for him.
3) Gary, Keith & The SNY Crew: Monday and Tuesday night’s games bordered on unwatchable, however our guys at SNY made it very entertaining. Whether talking about the cow on the foul pole, the pumpkins in the train, or the horrors of the Astrodome, the gang at SNY made watching the games entertaining, and enjoyable.
3 Down:
1) Jon Niese: One of my favorites, but let’s be honest, Niese was bad on Tuesday night. Niese had his worst outing of the season giving up five runs in three innings.
2) Chris Schwinden: Two outings, ten earned runs in eight innings. Prior to Schwinden’s start on Wednesday afternoon, Joe D. posted an MMO Roundtable discussing Schwinden. I stated that the Mets need to be patient with him. I’ll revise those comments now to say give Schwinden one more start. If he fails, it’s time for him to shuffle off to Buffalo.
3) Brad Mills: I thought Monday night, Mills stayed with his starter, Bud Norris too long. After pulling Norris, Mills then used seven different pitchers to retire seven different Mets batters! This isn’t the MLB 2012 video game. It was pure silliness on Mills part.
The Mets return home for a quick three game homestand against the Arizona Diamondbacks. A Friday night game, the Fox game on Saturday (who knows, maybe Josh Lewin will do the TV play by play for Fox), and a Sunday 1pm game. Let’s Go Mets!!
About the Author: Gregg Hopps
Gregg lives on Long Island, and has been a Mets fan since Bud Harrelson and Pete Rose slugged it out in the 1973 playoffs. "Keith Hernandez is the best defensive first baseman to ever have played baseball."
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Another down, SITUATIONAL hitting… it was just terrible this series.. And it’s becoming a trend.. I guess once unclutch, always unclutch.. This passive approach is just killing this team.. but hey OBP is really high so…
There you go again with that word you dont know the meaning of.
No matter what meaning you want to assign, when you only score 1 run your not situationally hitting OR approaching!
anyway and any word you want to define it the end result is SUCK!
Correct, saying that Ike Davis is struggling because he is following this approach is asinine. He is struggling because he is not following any approach. Especially not following one that emphasizes not swinging at pitches out of the zone early in the count and protecting the plate late in the count.
Well Like I said elsewhere no matter what approach you think Hudgens is telling him, the bottomline is Ike has been passive and lets fat fastballs go by him that puts him behind in the count where he strikes out on crap pitches later or rolls over and hits a weak ground ball!
He needs to start crushing those fat pitches early instead of this PATIENT wait for pitch approach yo gys have been talking abot because even if what you say is true there is no YOUR PITCH better than a fastball down the pike!
And if you don’t like that pitch then there is no pitch you like to hit you simply can’t hit!
So tell me do you think Ike really can’t hit or is his PATIENT PASSIVE approach to blame?
Honestly actually looking at his stats, no. He is not letting that many fastballs go for strikes except as we all know late in the count which is just plain stupid and shows he is guessing a breaking pitch because he knows right now he can’t hit them. He is not seeing that many FB in general. In fact he is swinging at 30% of the pitches outside the strike zone compared to David Wright’s 16% and Duda’s 22%. He’s also swinging at 60% of the pitches in the strike zone. Fact is he is just swinging, and swinging, and swinging…. and then not swinging on a 3-2 fastball. LOL. Yeah, that’s not the Hudgens approach.
they just weren’t hitting, period. Regardless of the “situation”
Do a little research. Either read the links I provided or go out on your own and find out if Hudgens wants them to be passive? In fact if you like he has tons of hitting videos on the market. Maybe you could get a few of those and be the most clutch hitter the Mets have ever seen?
“Look at this list of hitters and ask yourself if you think they go up to the plate looking for a walk… of course not. The walk is a by-product of having a good strike zone and not giving in to the pitcher by swinging at his pitch. Unfortunately, most littler league and high school coaches think walks show a lack of aggressiveness. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is not that any of these individuals (or teams, for that matter) are not aggressive; these are some of the most aggressive hitters in the league but also the most disciplined.”
the part they seem to be struggling with is protecting the plate (expanding the zone a little) with 2 strikes. or as everyone that ever played little league probably heard, “too close to take”.
as long as they are ripping at a fat, first pitch, try to get ahead FB, the approach is fine.
BINGO!
The guys who are hitting consistently like Murphy and Tejada are all protecting the plate!
The guys with higher K rates are all taking fat pitches and then swishing at junk or getting out on borderline calls on the black!
Ike is letting fat pitches early go by him and then struggles to hit the crap breaking balls that follow!
And he too gets punched out as much for taking a pitch than one he misses due to swinging!
I wouldn’t use Ike as an example of anything systemic with the team. he is just a complete mess at this point. and shows all the earmarks of a pure guess hitter (as does Bay, especially against a RHP).
Duda has done it as well just not as often as Ike.
Yup, right now Ike is a mess. However, if just HE were hitting better with RISP we might not even be having this discussion. 37 PA with RISP? That’s telling for sure.
I have seen Ike take a few big cuts early in the count, even first pitch, on breaking balls in the dirt. Is he actually going up looking for a damn curve? If anything he should be looking first pitch fastball and laying off the first pitch if it is a breaking ball.
You keep talking about Hudgens but I have yet to see an AB from him to date!
Whatever you think Hudgens is preaching is moot! What the players are DOING is what is important here!
And I have seen this team take a ton of fat middle belt high strikes early in the count that have been dismissed as PATIENCE and “WAITING FOR YOUR PITCH” only to see them weakly swing at a pitcher’s pitch later on because they are behind in the count and won’t see another strike until the next PA!
Neither you or I have a clue what Hudgens is actually preaching but I guarantee what we are seeing is sure not the goal he had in mind!
They ARE passive at the plate there is no reason in hell to take a fastball down the pipe with a mindset that your going to get a better pitch than that!
You not going to get a better pitch than that and if thats not the pitch you like to hit then your obviosly not a good hitter!
So it doesn’t matter what Hudgens is saying the passivity is there at the plate!
For whatever reason it has to stop!
and I’m not suggesting they go over aggressive but seeing more pitches is not going to get you a better pitch than a fastball down the pipe!
Especially if you took the first two already for called strikes!
some guys (not just on the mets, but all over and for a long time) just don’t like to swing at the first pitch for some reason. But you are correct, you seem to see a lot of guys taking what looks like a fat, get me ahead FB from the pitcher on the first pitch. And if they see a watermelon, absolutely they should tee off on it. Why aren’t they? Who the hell knows, but it sure isn’t because the team (hudgens, sandy, collins) is telling them to let fat ones go by for strike one!
they key is, they can’t swing all the way to the other end of the spectrum and swing from the heels at the first pitch, no matter what it is.
being willing to swing at the first pitch is also a good way to get the pitcher to throw a ball on pitch 1, since they have to be careful in that count also.
Well stick I know a lot of guys like to take the first pitch hell Ted Williams started that whole thing and you can’t say he didn’t know what he was doing.
But that said a good hitter can identify a fat fastball when he sees it and if he can’t then no way in hell can he help himself later on in the AB.
If you can’t identify and crush a fat fastball you have no chance at identifying between slider/sinker/curve later on to force the pitcher to give you a better pitch to hit late in the count!
Batting is an excersize in taking advantage of opportunities!
And if you see the Pitcher is giving you that opportunity on the first pitch you have to go up looking for it and take advantage of that tendancy!
Ike isn’t doing that!
As for what the team is teaching them there is the words and the meaning and both are subjective to the person speaking and listening.
If they are telling a batter to wait for his pitch the word WAIT is the verb they will act on in that sentence.
You can wait for your pitch till the cows come home and still not get it! Thats why Pitchers get paid so much to not give you YOUR pitch but to give you THIER pitch!
You have to take advantage of when he fails to do that or when he thinks he can sneak one by you and this idea of WAITING for something is being executed instead of the concept of DOING something!
YOUR PITCH should be any pitch you can get good bat on ball!
Which means if you let it go by you then your not waiting for your pitch your just waiting!
And don’t for a second think it’s jst the first pitch I’m talking abot I have seen a lot of fat fastballs go ignored with hitters counts like 2-0, 3-0 3-1!
From what I am finding they are not seeing that many first pitch fastballs. However, I know that even Hudgens has said that they need to take advantage of hitters counts more often. I think however, you have some points and some you are missing. A good pitch is not ANY pitch you can put the bat on. Murphy has great bat control but that doesn’t mean he should swing at the first pitch he can hit. He should be looking for the first pitch he can drive. I know that is kind of what you are saying though.
Again, it’s semantics. If the team can continue to have a good BA and good OBP and guys like Ike and Duda get going they will score runs. If Ike and Duda are not decent hitters it will not matter what approach the Mets are using as a team.
Well we are close and not because we are not taking the count into the situation in this discussion.
No need to I think we are pretty close.
As for what to swing at and what you can drive you need to be able to drive ANY pitch that is a strike to be a good MLB hitter,
You simply can not wait for what might never come!
Now its less important to swing at the first strike than it is to swing at the second or potential third.
But it much more important to swing at pitches that are close enough for a fallible human to call a strike!
And this is where Ike has failed almost from the start of him being here!
I’m certainly not blaming Hudgens for that and if he gets any knock it is for maybe not correcting it but I can’t say he hasn’t tried!
You can wait for a pitch to drive right up until you have one strike on you!
Then there is no more WAITING it should be about REACTING!
Truth is a batter should be able to drive ANY pitch that is a strike. Thats what seperates the men from the boys!
The better hitters leave no strike you can throw to get them out consistently as a weakness a pitcher can exploit!
Part of Ike’s problem is he is anticipating and waiting for a pitch that doesn’t come and by the time it does he is either looking for something else and taking those strikes or rolling over on them.
The way to stop that is to (for awhile) don’t let the count get deep!
Once you have done that for awhile you will get those pitches later because he isn’t sneaking strikes by you early in the count anymore!
I will agree that part of Ike’s problem is that he is guessing too much. That is evident. I still disagree that he is letting a lot of strikes go by early in the count. Stats are not showing that. Instead they are showing he is not getting many strikes to start with and is swinging at a LOT of pitches out of the zone.
I think they are following his approach to an extent but are not doing the final part of being tough late in the count. The BA and OBP (I know bad word) are fine but they have struggled when the early part of the AB did not go their way.
Looking at # with RISP:
Tejada .235 BA, .300 OBP, 2K’s 20 PA. So no his issue is not the strike out.
Murphy .250, .296, 5K’s 27 PA. Again K’s not a HUGE problem.
Kirk .200, .238 4 K’s 21 PA. A little high but comparable to his issues in the minors as well.
Wright .304 .469. Guy has been hot all year regardless. 6 K’s 32 PA. Actually good for Wright.
Thole .308 .471 again good all year.
Bay .071 with 6 K’s in 16 PA. Stinky, stinky, stinky.
Hairston .286 .375 5 K’s in 16 PA.
Duda .250 .367 5 K’s 30 PA. Not bad.
Ike: .167 .231 15 K’s 39 PA. Yup the guy that has seen the most PA with RISP has completely stunk the joint up. Want to point a finger at why the Mets are not scoring and you only get one finger then look directly at Ike. Not only is he not hitting with RISP he isn’t even putting the ball in play either. He is the ONE that has not been following Hudgens approach and has to step up. You could see the last few games a little bit of a light at the end of the tunnel but he better get the train moving fast.
So no it’s not the strike outs in general that are killing the team with RISP it is who is batting.
Well when you tell someone not to swing unless you like the pitch what do you expect to happen late in Abs where they get pitches they don’t like but can be called strikes?
I have yet to hear Hudgens say a word about fighting with 2 strikes on you. I hear praise when it happens bt never once have I heard Hudgens say anything about protecting the plate!
And when I have suggested this was needed in the past I got slammed by gy like Tag who sggest swinging at possible BALLS was stupid depite the fact an mpire calls a ball a strike all the time especially when he gets to punch a player out!
“His hitting philosophy is as OLD SCHOOL basic as it can be!
When you see the pitch you like to hit, HIT IT! Regardless of the count!
It’s patience in one respect as you might take a pitch you can’t hit (ball OR strike) but it is also aggressive in the respet that regardless of the count when you get your pitch you must go after it because your not going to get your pitch all that often!
His approach is less about the anticipation and prediction used in batting and more focused on the REACTION to what is presented. And I agree with this approach as it does not require guessing correctly to succeed. All it requires is concentration of putting the bat on the ball when it is pitched to a place that you like.
Yes this will result in more walks AND more hits but it will also lead to more called third strikes and swings and misses if you get fooled by the pitch. This is the norm for an AGGRESSIVE approach. But in the end the fact that you are looking for pitches to HIT as opposed to waiting for mistakes or trying to draw more walks means you probably won’t strike out on balls you could not hit if you wanted to (ie High Heat) because it’s not your pitch to hit and therefore more often than not you will succeed in putting the ball in play where anything can happen!”
And what is the batter to do if he doesn’t ever get a pitch he likes to hit? Just give up and hope he walks? Isn’t that precisely what Ike has been doing? Waiting for something that never comes and then being forced to swing at things he doesn’t like because he didn’t like that fat 1-0 fastball presented to him?
You forget the batter doesn’t determine what he gets the Pitcher does!
And to get what you want you have to show the pitcher you can beat him when he gives you what he wants so he will try something else that maybe you DO like!
Or swing at what he presents and foul it off until the pitcher screws up or works himself into a position to give you what you crave!
Again, Metsie of course this quote comes from you. I pulled it off a thread from last year here on MMO.
That being said, I showed earlier that Ike is actually swinging too much not taking too much.
Now he is swinging too much…But tell me you never saw Ike take a strike and then whine like a baby at the Umpire?
Tell me you only saw that happen once!
I saw it a bunch at the end of an AB. Again, that’s just stupid on Ike’s part.
dude lets face facts he is letting strikes go by him and swinging at crap pertty much accross the board and we call it a day! LOL
Ike is just one case.
Bay was doing it, Duda was doing it more, Wright used to do it but hasn’t this year…
About the only players who haven’t are Tejada, Murphy and on occassion Thole!
Which would explain thier BAs at the moment.
“1 – REACT instead of ANTICIPATE
2 – Wait for the pitch you can hit (even if it means taking a strike when the count allows!)
3 – HIT IT HARD when it comes and don’t worry about where it goes
4 – If you can’t hit it don’t try!
5 – Remember, A single scores a RISP as easily as a double does
6 – Protect the plate with 2 Strikes
Good rules for batting no matter if your playing moneyball, small ball or long ball!”
Only quibble I have is with #2
It’s not when the count allows it is only when there are NO STRIKES that you should take a strike.
Once you have one strike you should be swinging at all others!
You can drive any strike provided you go with the pitch!
In the case of Ike on pitches to the outside you go opposite field.
On Pitches inside you pull.
We talk about how best to get bat on ball but hitting skill also has a high degree of being able to foul off pitches as well!
Metsie of course you were the one to post these things. I hope you don’t have many quibbles.
Well then I guess I should have stipulated better what I meant when the count allows.
screw the one more start. Move on to the next guy, and give hefner a shot.
Agreed. Besides, no reason to keep him up in the mean time when the BP needs an extra arm. Send him down for a BP arm and then when the #5 spot comes up make the move then. In fact if I were them I would get Gee into Pelfrey’s spot first and that puts off that move one more day.
Yesterday I was going to give him two more starts but now I have to say I agree with you I have seen enough.
TRS – You can’t just do what you propose, you will quickly eat up your MiL options doing that!
Metsie, the option is good for the year based on what I remember about the Heath Bell express. So while I don’t propose doing it for the entire year, there are arms down on the farm that you could call up that aren’t going to hurt you. Example you call up Olsen to be in the pen for now and then you call up Hefner to replace him. What damage is done?
Yes but you also affect your arb clock by bringing them up!
Maybe not important for a guy you never expect to make yor team but then again what are you really accompishing then?
What are you accomplishing? Giving a guy like Miggy a break for anyone else. Same with Acosta. Acosta has a ton of bad innings already, so does Miggy. Might as well bring up another fresh albeit maybe mediocre arm to replace them.
Well maybe by leaving them down there where all of your development and teachers are makes them not so mediocre for the future!
Face it as bad as Acosta and Miggy have been nothing you can do now is going to change it!
The time to fix it was the offseason!
Maybe he couldn’t, maybe he refused!
As many claim this is a rebilding year right it’s all about the future?
So whats the problem with the way we are playing now if WIN NOW is such a bad idea to begin with why change mid season?
If all the crap and arguments made in the offseason was worth spewing then I don’t see why anyone is concerned with the failures and deficiencies of this current team! The ones making excuses were largely the ones who thought we were doing the right thing in getting and relying on these players months ago!
We KNEW we had no shot before the season started thats why so many said we had to wipe the slate purge the all stars and start over!
Now we are going to change that opinion because we started off hot against depleted teams in our division?
Just let them play and at the end of the season we can sort out who sucked who didn’t and who was right in the scrap or play to win this year argument!
No reason to blow though Minors in the name of winning a season no one said was worth building a team to win with.
Better to trade those kids for something you really CAN use than bring them up and ruin their trade value to win games no one was concerned with winning when we passed on improving the team in the offseason!
Guys like Olsen and Hefner are not “blowing through the minors” though.
They aren’t fixing anything either…
I would rather package both and something else for a pitcher that cold at least fix the problem even if only temporarily!
Who that is and what it takes is Sandy’s job to figure out!
So far Pagan is the only trade he has made that affects the MLB roster…and it hasn’t been all that great! I would mch rather have Pagan in Center and Kirk in Left right now that the two guys we got for Pagan. He has speed and would be as good a leadoff hitter as Kirk or Torres has been.
Time for Sandy to do his horsetrading like we were told was so important in building the Braves and Phillies when they were presented as genius builders ( I know that wasn’t you so don’t take it as such!)
Couldn’t agree more. I wouldn’t give Schwinden another start.
Not sue Hefner is any better but we’ve seen what Schwinden looks like so I’d take the chance on Hefner. Problem is, what do we do when Hefner shows he’s no better?
Bottom line is we can’t keep running a 5th starter out there who doesn’t make it past the 4th inning. Especially not when our long man – Batista – is barely any better.
GKR – best group booth in MLB.
Hi Gregg. Dont forget Ruben Tejada, he may have been the only bright spot on the roster besides Dickey.