5
2011
Choosing Mets Over Reyes
An article by 
I recognize that when things like Jose Reyes signing a contract with the Miami Marlins occur, there will always be an outcry.
I guess what I am most confused about is why people are acting as though they didn’t see this coming? I recognize that I am in a minority of Mets fans that is glad the Mets didn’t go 6years/100+ million. I can live with that, because I told myself and several times on here that I wouldn’t be comfortable with more than 5/95.
When a player hits the market you have to tell yourself a number. If you don’t, that is how you end up bidding against yourself or paying with your heart and not with your brain. This is also why I don’t flip out when I hear “no formal offer” was made. GM’s have discussions with agents, and ballpark years/dollars are discussed.
If Alderson said “We can’t go more than 5 years under any circumstances,” that’s not an offer right? But it’s certainly enough information for Greenberg to know if he gets 6 somewhere else, he should take it.
If the Mets had signed homegrown Blue Jay Jose Reyes with his injury history, his career year in a contract season and his overall career numbers following the 2009 season, mostly everybody here would be all over Omar Minaya for it. Especially if in year #1, Reyes got hurt or had a lackluster season. That’s a fact, and anybody who tries to dispute that is not being honest with themselves.
I’m sorry Reyes was a casualty of the mess that is the NY Mets, I really am. But at the end of the day, I’m not interested in what is best for Jose Reyes. I’m interested in long term franchise health for once. When Minaya was here early on, I was gung ho. I was all about trading prospects, get a “now” team and just get that dang championship.
But now I see what that can do to a franchise if you swing and miss. I look at teams like St. Louis, Atlanta, LA Angels, Minnesota, and Tampa Bay. Teams that have their ups and downs lately but if they occur they are short lived because they continuously are re-shuffling the roster, not by spending on overpriced players.
For me, in the last 2 years I’ve come to the realization that the NY Mets are not the NY Yankees. Just because they play in New York, doesn’t make them equals. I look specifically at the LA Angels who despite success will always play 2nd fiddle to the LA Dodgers.
They’ve learned to work around that, and they spend money sure, but they don’t rely on money to win them games. They never seem to have an off-season where “they have to” get big time free agents. Why?
Because they have guys like Bourjos, Trumbo, Aybar, Callaspo. They can let a John Lackey or a K-Rod walk because they have enough to get Haren, or they have Ervin Santana, or faith in Tyler Chatwood. They can get a temporary closer like a Brian Fuentes because maybe Jordan Walden is a legit closer.
They never seem to panic. They make moves, they sign guys here and there but it’s never out of desperation. I believe when you sign a free agent out of desperation, there is no way you can make an educated decision.
I noticed Joe D today explained that he feels the reason the Mets didn’t sign Reyes was because of Alderson’s aversion to long-term contracts. I don’t think that is a fair statement. I think that statement makes it seem like Alderson is on an island in the world of MLB GM’s who don’t commit to 6+ years.
Since 2006’s winter season the following players were signed to 6+ year deals following an under .500 season by their new club (or extended club).
-Alfonso Soriano 8 years to the Cubs, prior year Cubs were 66-96
-Barry Zito 7 years to the Giants, prior year Giants were 76-85
-Carlos Lee 6 years to the Astros (extension), prior year Astros were 82-80
-Aroldis Chapman 6 years to the Reds, prior year Reds were 74-88. This obviously was a special case, but the point is still valid that for the 1st year years he’s been a middle reliever.
-Jayson Werth 7 years to the Nationals, prior year Nats were 69-83
-Jose Reyes 6 years to the Marlins, prior year Marlins were 72-90
So far it would be hard for anybody to convince me that any of the previous 5 deals turned out to be good for the franchise over the length of the deal. In fact, Soriano-Zito-Lee have somewhat crippled their franchise from moving forward.
Since 2006, the last players to get 6 year+ contracts (regardless of team record) during the winter were:
Alfonso Soriano, Barry Zito, Carlos Lee, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Alex Rodriguez, Mark Teixeria, C.C. Sabathia, Matt Holliday, Carl Crawford, Jayson Werth, Adrian Beltre, and now Jose Reyes.
I see two very apparent things with this list. First, I see teams signing “final piece” type players. The Cardinals with Holliday acquired him during the season, and extended him as protection for Pujols on a 91 win team that would win a World Series 2 year later.
Beltre, a guy who would be added to a team that made it to the World Series in the prior year, signed to add to an already explosive offense.
Obviously players like Tex, ARod, Sabathia, we know why they were signed.
Dice K was signed by an 86 win Red Sox team that had already won a World Series and knew they need just a little extra to win another. Was he the only reason they won in his first year? No, but his best 2 seasons were the best the Red Sox have had since 2005.
Crawford, everybody knows the Red Sox thought he’d be a final piece to another championship puzzle with AGone as well.
So you have those guys, then you have teams trying to turn water into wine with free agents.
So if very few teams have committed to 6+ year contracts in the last 5+ years, then how can it be fair to say Alderson is the one who doesn’t like long-term deals?
If you take away 1 year and minor leagues, the majority of winter free agent deals are between 2-4 years, not 5-7. So why are we (or some of us) upset that Alderson didn’t do what almost no other team does?
If Reyes was such a no brainer to sign to 6+ years, $100+ million then where are the other competitive and financially stable teams who needed a SS? Where are the Tigers, Brewers, Giants, Phillies for example? It’s not because “Sandy Alderson is averse to long-term deals,” it’s because MOST GM’s are and with good reason.
I believe part of the problem is a lack of acceptance that this team is rebuilding without tearing it all down. I think that can confuse people, because when people think “rebuild”, they think trade everybody and start over. The Mets are treading water right now, I don’t need Alderson to tell me that.
I have come to terms with the fact that for better or worse this team put all their eggs in 2006-2008, and it didn’t work. I’ve come to terms with the fact it’s going to be a few years before I see any real success here, but there’s a mess to be cleaned up. I can’t do anything about that. Jose Reyes was a casualty of a plan that didn’t work, and bad timing in terms of finances.
For fans to say they are not going to Citi Field because of this 1 move, I have to call them out for it. You likely weren’t going anyway. Jose Reyes had his greatest season in his entire career in 2011, and through July, the team was playing competitive baseball and was fun to watch, where were you then?
The Mets averaged paid attendance was 30,108, with a capacity of 41,800. That’s a 72% capacity average for the entire length of the year. So where were you all when Reyes was in uniform? If you look at the attendance figures and exclude the Yankees series it’s very apparent that the attendance goes up when the team was .500 or above. It had nothing to do with Reyes, and everything to do with the team on the field.
The Mets and every team are about the name on the front, not on the back. If you want to act like Jose Reyes did so much for you as a fan, that’s fine. I simply do not remember a parade in New York City with Jose Reyes holding a championship trophy.
The fact remains that when Jose Reyes was here, the Mets averaged 80 wins a year. That means during his career as a Met, the Mets were an under .500 franchise. If you want to only use games he played in (which negates his injury history), the Mets are an 84-78 team. That still ain’t cutting it.
I’m sorry you may not like that fact, but it’s true. He has brought excitement yes, but has he brought so much success that it’s impossible to think about living without him? No.
I wish Jose the best, but he also made a choice just as the Mets front office and owners did. He isn’t fully to blame by any stretch of the imagination, but at the end of the day if he wanted to be a NY Met, he could have been. He and his agent knew the Mets financial situation; it’s no secret what is going on right now.
He got his big pay day, I don’t blame him as a person for doing it, but he still made the decision to get paid. There are so many parties involved in this decision, I don’t blame anybody with anger, I accept the current state of the Mets and hope there is a plan to make them better in the future over the long-term.
LeBron James KNEW the Cavs couldn’t do as much for him financially over the long-term that the Heat could. If he wanted to stay in Cleveland, he could have found ways to work within their limits to get the best deal for all parties involved. Instead, he followed the money.
In almost every single instance of a homegrown player choosing $ over his team, he’d get booed, but because some Mets fans are so angry right now, they will give greed a pass because they aren’t willing to come to terms with the current state of their beloved franchise. If Pujols or Prince join the Cubs, they will get booed in St. Louis/Milwaukee.
Teams have their financial limits, and if a homegrown player chooses to not take those into consideration to go play for somebody who can pay them more then I don’t understand how any fan could give them a “pass,” on leaving.
I do not believe over the course of Reyes’ contract he will prove to be on the field enough and performing at a high enough level that we’ll look back after 6 years and say “what a great sign by the Marlins.”
It’s okay that you think I’m wrong, but I believe when you think with your head and not with your heart as a passionate Mets fan that you will see things in a different way.
When it’s all said and done. I’m not a Wilpon fan, a Sandy fan, a J.P. fan, an Omar fan or a Reyes fan. I’m a Mets fan.
About the Author: Michael J. Branda
My time with MMO began in July of 2009 when I wrote a Fan Post defending Omar Minaya (before it was cool to do that.) I grew up a Mets fan with the mid 1980's teams. My favorite Met of all-time is (and was) Wally Backman. When it comes to sabermetrics versus old school thinking, I like to think I meet in the middle. I believe thinking of new ways to get answers is helpful, especially when the same way has not produced results. However, I think over-thinking certain situations can get you into trouble. I'm excited for the new regime, because I believe they have pieces in place to focus on several aspects of the Mets organization. I've waited this long for a World Series, waiting a few more years for another chance isn't going to kill me.
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Very nice essay, Jessep. Finally, someone makes sense about the whole Reyes fiasco. I can’t wait to read these boards the first time Reyes hits the DL with a pulled hammy next spring.
Jessup:
Very nice article – heartfelt by a true Met fan with valid stats to support a valid position. I just wish that Alderson had a little more “Donnie Walsh” going & just level with the fan base. Had he done so, Met fans would’ve understood a trading deadline deal that could have yielded much, much more than a no. 3 draft pick.
They way it played out placed the organization in as poor a position as possible to leverage Reyes’ much anticipated departure.
Here’s the problem – Alderson let the ball play him instead of playing the ball.
2-Cat
Great reading. The most important man in the Met organization for 2012? Terry Collins. Think he’ll have a few sleepless nights in the Collins household? Lay in the Jack Daniels and the Prozac!
Wow this piece sticks out big time. What a great article full of actual unbiased factual information. Whew….. Got to link to this one.
Unbiased, filled with facts… Only a person who hates good players on their own team would say that. The article starts off with utter nonsense. The author claims they’s go for 5/095 but not 6/100 plus. so the autor would be happy to take Reyes for 19 million a year and not the 16-17 the Marlins took him for. Basically if you’d but the BS of 5/95 then the Marlins got year 6 for virtually nothing. And that’s not a good deal. This is just wither Reyes hate or Alderson blind love. Nothing more. It took the Mets almost 50 years to find a player as skilled as Reyes and to be ok with giving it away is not a fan, its just something that is ridiculous.
Awesome post, I totally agree on everything. I know we’re in the minority when it comes to this school of thought, but oh well.
LMAO, i knew it!!!!!!!!!! you are the biggest hypocrite in this site, supposedly reyes was your fav player, yet you act as if this was ok.. you’re pathetic, didn’t you write this articles a few weeks ago about how sandy needed to show you something for 2012 if not you demanded an explanation:
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/11/heres-my-plan-for-2012-whats-yours-sandy.html
you are pathetic you know that, how you are allowed to keep posting garbage ass article in this site is beyond me..
Thanks for you support alex.
no i still see alderson as a lying P.O.S. , and you’re mancrush over sandy is getting old.
LOL….
That is some good baseball talk
Excellent.When the team wins, fans will buy tickets.Even with Tejeda at ss.Everything else is just hot air.
I saw it coming but had a glimmer of hope Jose would come back. I understand its what goes around comes around since we would sign free agents. One difference. This is NY, the biggest media market in the world. We signed players from other teams who wanted to come here. You do not leave NY to go somewhere else unless its money. Jose took the money and ran and did not go with where his heart was. I hate him for that but also hate Alderson, besides his boring bla bla way of speaking, for not even offering Jose a contract. For that, I am done with baseball for awhile. Thank God the Knicks are back.
By “for a while” do you mean until the Mets are a trendy team to like again?
I’ll be rooting for Bobby V. in Boston.
you do realize that many players don’t consider playing in the biggest media market to be a selling feature, right?
You dont leave NY to go anywhere else except for money or not being able to handle the pressure here. Reyes handled the pressure and the fans loved him so he goes to Miami because he is selfish and stupid. I hope his hammy ruptures.
well thought out piece.
Well, I’m a Mets fan too. And the reason why I wanted the Mets to keep Reyes is because he makes us a better team now and in the future.
The list of guys that you have signing 6+ years that didn’t work out, how many of those guys were over 30 when they signed? reyes is different than those guys because, he’s in the prime of his career, not towards the end like most of those guys were.
The fact that the Mets are under .500 with Reyes means nothing. Because if your counting his career, your counting 03 and 04, years the Mets were really bad. We are talking about the 2012 Mets here, so I don’t care about those years at all. Plus, the last few years the Mets were killed with injuries – You can’t ignore the fact that the Mets injuries the last few years played a big part in the Mets losing the last few years. That’s a fact, and anybody who tries to dispute that is not being honest with themselves. The Mets would have been easily over .500 with Ike and Wright healthy last year, and if they didn’t trade away their best RP, and their best hitter.
And Ike and Wright are going to be healthy next year. If we would have kept Reyes, are lineup would be really good with him leading off, and Wright, Ike and Duda hitting behind him.
And Santana is also coming back. So with him, ther Mets rotation is already better than last year. And the Mets could have packaged Murphy for a #2 starter, like Gio, Chaill, Danks, Garza, or Sheilds – There’s a lot of closers available so the bullpen could be fixed easily – The Mets should have made an effort to improve the team, instead of getting rid of everybody because if they tried they could have been a nice team(and I won’t be surprised if Wright is next by the way).
You’re acting as though the players I listed were all 34, 35 years old on the day they signed…
Soriano 30
Zito 28
Lee 30
Werth 31
Holliday 30
Crawford 29
Texieria 28
Daisuke 26
Chapman 21
ARod 32
Sabathia 28
Beltre 31
Reyes 28
Before Reyes, that’s an average age of 28. If you take out Chapman due to his special cirumstances to be fair, the average age of a player getting 6+ when they hit free agency was 29.
I was talking about your 1st list with Soriano, Lee, and Werth….Not the list with Teixeria.
reyes was younger than everyone excpet Zito….And like you said Chapman doesn’t count because of his special cirumstances
Of course you were because the complete list doesn’t fit your narrative.
Um no, because that list was about contracts that didn’t work out. That’s why I said that list. My point was that they didn’t work out because they were older.
sigh…….
And you will continue to either miss or ignore the problems. Yes, you should sigh.
And, by he way, who on that list makes their living stealing bases and legging out triples?
When will you explain to us Mr donal lover of all bad moves made by Alderson, when will you explain how the Mets became a better team last night. Can’t do it so continue to play the fool making fun of everybody. Guess what the joke’s on you vecause in a year or two wilponzis will be forced to sell and alderson the wilponzi puppet and all the cheap guys on his dole like you will be flushed away.
why do you assume Donal wants the wilpon’s to stay put?
I don’t think anybody does, its just some of us accept what we cannot control right now.
well said my friend.
Ya I love the Wilpons so much. That is why I joined in on all those “we want Cuban” chants a year ago. Or why I was excited at the reported terms of Einhorn’s deal.
Do you ever, just once, know what the hell you are saying?
I’m basically in agreement, Vinny. The Mets are “punting” 2012 (and beyond) by letting him go and sticking with Pelfrey and Gee in the starting rotation. They could have been gone for the wildcard with Jose in the lineup and adding at least one better starter, and improving (as Alderson has stated he will do) the bullpen.
“you can’t ignore the fact that the Mets injuries the last few years played a big part in the Mets losing the last few years. ”
And who was one of those largest injury concerns? The guy they would not match the 111M contract. Who was the other? The guy they traded for our top prospect Wheeler.
Looks to me like they are taking the steps to not be in the same situation of “if healthy….”.
The wrst word when building a team is “if.”
It’s usually followed by “they can play like they did 3 years ago.” or “stay healthy” or “get lucky”
wrst = worst
acually jessup the worst is forgetting the lessons of generation k… EVERYTHING IN SPORTS is an IF. A kid is an if and a star is an if. and if you want to only play the game with expensive ifs thenyou are being dishonest.
I Didn’t use any “ifs”
With reyes, Ike and Wright, and Duda, the Mets lineup could have been real good – No “If’s” it would have beeen good. It was already last year, without Ike and Wright for most of the year – Ike and Wright are now fully healthy, and both got hurt on fluke injuries.
With Santana returning, and if they added a #2 guy, our rotation would be good. – Santana, one of the guys I listed, Dickey, Niese, and Gee, is actaully a good rotation, and with that linuep, the Mets could win with that – No “ifs”
There’s a lot of good closers avaialble that would have improved the bullpen – Again no “ifs”.
The problem I have wit your comment is its so 2012 centered. What about 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017?
And it’s kind of comical that you’re saying you aren’t saying “if” but you said “With reyes, Ike and Wright, and Duda, the Mets lineup could have been real good”
Could = If
“And the Mets could have packaged Murphy for a #2 starter, like Gio, Chaill, Danks, Garza, or Sheilds”
And your above statement about trading Murphy also assumes teams like the A’s would line up for an infielder who would maybe need to be a DH who is rehabbing from his 2nd major knee injury in as many years.
That’s not really an attractive bargaining tool, you agree with that? If you were an A’s, Cubs, or Tampa fan there’s no way you’d look at Daniel Murphy *right now* as a centerpiece to a deal for those guys. No way.
Yeah I don’t get that either. What makes people think that another team would value Murphy more than the Mets? Just because he CAN DH? The AL is full of guys who CAN DH. They look for guys that can field their position the same way an NL team does. You would have to trade Murphy AND a top 5 prospects to get those types of players and even then what do you have?
yeah the A’s, Cubs, Rays aren’t dealing Cahill or Gio away for a guy who can’t really field and has had 2 severe knee injuries and will be 27 on opening day.
Sorry not every GM is a Mets fan
You wanna throw in guys like Gee+Harvey, Mejia, then maybe you got something but even then I’m not sure.
Teams don’t roll over and send young starting pitching away. It’s a valuable commodity.
You do realize how good Murphy played last year? He was top five in the league in 2B’s before he got hurt, and was top five in average – Your saying those teams wouldn’t want him? Yeah right.
Those guys names have all be mentioned in trade rumors and the Mets said Murphy is “available” So a trade centering around those players insn’t unrealistic.
It doesn’t matter what Murphy did before he got hurt. His trade value plumeted the day he hurt his knee severaly.
He has below average power, he was hitting .266 when he went down so I’m not sure why you’re acting like he was a batting champ… what does Daniel Murphy do for the A’s, Rays or Cubs?
Why in the world would Oakland, Cubs, Rays trade young starting pitching in a trade that centers around IF a slightly unproven talent who barely can field rehab’s perfectly?
I mean you can’t be serious. If the Mets pulled that type of deal off without giving up guys like Harvey, Mejia, Wheeler then they should put a statue up of Alderson.
Sorry .266 was 2009 before injury. Last year was .320 to Murph’s credit but still limited power, no speed, little fielding range.
Vinny: I corrected my error but you probably missed it
If I am trading away Gio there is no doubt in my mind I’d rather get LoMo than Daniel Murphy. Not a doubt in my mind.
Every position is “out of position” for Murphy. You’re getting a DH who can hit .300 but has history of 2 insane knee injuries at age 27
Or you can get a 24 year old kid who can play the OF who can hit for Power and just needs more plate discipline
He was hitting .266? where are you getting those numbers from? he hit .320, and that was good for top five in the league, and he also was top five in the league in 2B’s before he got hurt.
I haven’t heard anything about Murphy not being ready to start the year, did you? He’s going to be fine….and he’s only been hurt because he’s been playing out of postion.
The A’s demanded a package centered around Logan Morrison. So the A’s would want him badly, but would laugh at the idea of Murphy, who played better than Morrison?
Come on. You can’t be serious.
It’s just semantics. Fine, the Mets lineup WOULD be good with Reyes, how’s that? It already was last year without Ike and Wright for most of the year, so it’s only going to get better now with them.
And I am thinking about 2013 and beyond. reyes helps us for now and for the future, so would the the pitchers I listed too.
what I’m saying is not about just this year, but also for the future.
Time for a dose of reality though. Yeah IF the Mets had solved CF, brought in a closer, improved the other bullpen areas, signed a veteran 2B, C, and a # 2 starter along with Reyes they would easily be a contender…. LOL. Where in the hell would they get that money from? Face it the team has about 20M to spend period and the owners have no money to bail the team out.
I think you need a dose of reality.
I already talked about the bullpen, there’s plenty of guys available that we can sign that can make a big difference – Capps or Francisco aren’t going to cost that much….and we could find a few cheap RP’s that could help us out.
And why do we need a veteran 2B? Tejada is fine…..and with the rest of our team, we would be fine with Pagan. The #2 starters that I talked about don’t cost that much anyway.
Vinny did you really say “The #2 starters that I talked about don’t cost that much anyway.”
You mentioned Gio, Danks, Cahill, Garza, Shields.
They don’t cost that much?
I’ll quote you with my reply “I think you need a dose of reality.”
Also why is Tejada just fine at 2B but not at SS when you’re touting Murphy as valuable enough to acquire guys like Gio Gonzalez?
They don’t cost much MONEY – that’s what I meant. They will cost a lot of players to get them, obviously.
We are fine with Tejada at 2b because we have a better team surrouding him with reyes. And Murpy straight up won’t get those guys I listed, but I’m saying they could have packaged him in a trade for them.
Vinny tell ya what.
I’ve got Gio, Cahill, Garza or Shields
You’ve got Murphy and who. Your BEST offer to get one of them.
Just for details sake:
Cahill:
11:$0.5M, 12:$3.5M, 13:$5.5M, 14:$7.7M, 15:$12M, 16:$13M club option
Garza and Danks are signed to avoid arby so they could hit the market very soon
Shields 11:$4.25M, 12:$7M club option ($2M buyout), 13:$9M club option ($1.5M buyout), 14:$12M club option ($1M buyout)
Only 2 of those pitchers you listed would be in the Mets budget IF they re-signed Reyes.
OK, so let’s target those two guys.
#2 starters that don’t cost that much? They have to cost that much, they are # 2 starters. Thus either they cost in money or they cost in prospects. The Mets have very little of either.
Gio or Cahill? Seriously a package around Murphy? Right. Danks, Garza and Shields? Along with Reyes and bullpen… not enough money.
Sigh,
I meant those guys don’t cost much money, not prospects.
The A’s “demanded” a package of either Logan Morrison or Mike Stanton for Gio, and Marlins rejected. So the A’s wanted Morrison in return, but your saying they wouldn’t want Murphy, who played much better than Morrison?
You understand LoMo is 24 years old on Opening Day 2012 compared to Murphy’s 27
LoMo has more of an all around package as a player. Murphy can hit for average but he can be flukey and he has 2 severe knee injuries. LoMo can field, hit for power already… getting your average up is easier with age/discipline.
By the time LoMo hits 27 on Opening Day he should be much better than Murphy is today. So no, I would rather have Murphy than LoMo.
Plus you threw in Stanton at first, and he’s what 21 years old? So if the A’s were asking for Stanton from the start… then Murphy needs Matt Harvey and Mejia to pack his bags for him
“And it’s funny your saying the A’s would want Morrison, but would laugh at the idea of Murphy.”
Yeah sorry I don’t see why you thnk a 27 year old with no defensive position and 2 severe knee injuries is of more value to a team looking to trade SP for youth than a guy with a position who can hit for power and is only 24?
So a 27 year old Murphy as the centerpiece of a deal for a 26 year old starting pitcher.
Ok Vinny. Maybe Gee for Elvis Andrus next?
Murphy had a great year last year, so he does have value. Teams would want to have a guy like that on their team, and would give up valuable pieces to get him.
And Obviously, it would take more than just Murphy….and the Mets do have the pieces to pull it off.
And it’s funny your saying the A’s would want Morrison, but would laugh at the idea of Murphy.
The A’s wouldn’t want 27 year old who was top five in the league in hitting, and in 2B’s, on their team – Yeah right.
And he does have postion, he plays 3rd base…..and Morrison played bad OF defense.
I’m not saying he has MORE value than Morrison, but if a package centering around Morrison could get Gio, then a pakcage around Murphy could get him too.
It’s not unrealistic.
they would do that because they would get other prospects back on top of that. Maybe Murphy, gee, Mejia + somebody else might get it done. Who knows what else exactly it would take, but Murphy does have value, and I’m sure they would want him.
It’s not unrealistic.
And, lets just forget about how well Murphy hit last year, and if he played the full season would have made the top five in some offensive statistics.
That doesn’t matter.
Sure once you add in top prospects it makes the trade more feasible. However, then the trade would be centered around those prospects and not Daniel Murphy… LOL.
I thought everyone knew I meant Murphy + prospects? What did you think I was saying to do it straight up?
I wouldn’t want to trade Mejia, but if that’s what it’s going to take, then yes. i’d do it.
Do you remember Murphy in LF?
Our lack of assets to make a trade to improve. Another reason for optimism huh? smh.
Vinny you do realize that no pitcher has ever fully recovered from a torn anterior capsule,especially one that required a full incision. So far on Chien Ming Wang has made iit back with close to his old velocity and it took two full years to get his arm strength back and his surgey wasn’t nearly as invasive as Johan’s. Lets be honest. Johan is a major if going into next season.Yes the team can put some runs on the board but as constructed can’t keep runs off the board defensively.Even with a solid SS last year they were still a disaster defensively and the OF can be a total nightmare with Duda and Pagan.There’s still way too many ifs to expect a contending season even with Reyes unless you can gaurantee me that Johan will be back at full strength.Not with our defense,pitching and catching situation.Not only was the defense hideous last year,so was the baserunning and fundamentals.It’s just simply not a well constructed team.They have some players but they’re not a good team.
It wasn’t just Reyes…if it was JUST reyes that got hurt, we would have survied the injuries. It was Wright, Davis, Beltran, reyes, Santana, Pagan, ect…..
and they didn’t just miss weeks at a time, they missed months at a time – You can’t win when your replacing your best players with backups.
Right and they are taking steps to ensure that those injuries are not as likely. From Alou to Beltran to Reyes to …. they have relied on too many players that if healthy…. Thus when freak injuries to Wright or Davis occurred you had the normal injuries occurring as well. Seriously, how many games does Prince Fielder miss? There is a guy I would be upset about losing.
Oh you mean the guy with a weight problem that everybody is so concerned about if he can stay healthy?
yeah he has missed 13 games from 2006-2011.
That’s not 13 games a year. That’s 13 games.
The Mets goal should be tyring to put the best team out on the field, and Reyes makes the team better, so he should have been signed.
Is he risky? yes, but he’s worth it, because he makes the team better and they have a chance to win with him if they made improvements to the pitching. And they don’t have a chance to win without him.
why is he worth the risk? Because he had a great 2011 year? What has he done for the franchise in terms of winning when it counts in his 8 years?
If you’re telling me this was December 5, 2010 and you’d want to sign Reyes to 6 yr/106m then you’re just clearly bias.
You’re basing your views on April-September of the 2011 season, but when you’re signing a long term deal you can’t take 1 out of 8 years.
I’m basing it on this year, yes, and his entire Mets career.
Last 3 years, averaged 98 games per year. Of course that is helped by the almost entire lost season of 2009 but that one still counts and is also why NO other team even bothered to get involved with a 6 year deal.
If they were trying to field the BEST team then shouldn’t they have ponied up another 3-4 million per and went after Pujols or Fielder? After all it’s about fielding the best team for 2012? right?
Because we have Ike davis at 1B – the moves have to make sense. The can’t be a fantasy.
I could spend all day raging about the state of the Mets, but I’ll let the baseball smart Dave Cameron explain why Mets fans should be and have a right to be very angry for the Mets not re-signing Jose. Best line in the piece is this gem:
“The Marlins have essentially signed him to a contract that gives him room to spend more than a month each year on the DL while still getting what they’ve paid for.”
Wow.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/marlins-get-a-potential-bargain-in-jose-reyes/
What about the other month he spends on the DL? Or the entire season he misses? Or the fact that post injury last year he was not the same player already and the contract expects him to still perform at a decently high level 5 years from now?
He hit over .300 after he came back…and hit almost .500 the last week of the year.
In how many games? How many extra base hits? How many stolen bases?
He looked like Luis Castillo after his second DL stint of the year.
That a boy donal, don’t have an argument about improving the team so you go after the guy who just left. Typical typical typical.
I have a plan but does it really matter if we have one or not? What was the plan with re-signing Reyes? Hope and pray that players don’t get injured, return from injury and take huge steps forward? Then in 2013 when some help COULD arrive be hamstrung by another bad deal with no way to improve the team yet again?
Thanks for continually bringing nothing to the equation.
Vinny also happens to be one of the guys who praises BA but then tells us how misleading stats are. I’m just pointing out another double standard.
What abot your double standard? Now SB’s matter, before they were a “footnote”.
We can play “gotcha” all day long, but all we are going to be doing is wasting our time – Just stick to the Reyes deabte please.
No, I’m applying the standard by which most of you said Reyes was valuable. His speed. There was no indication that he was utilizing his speed in the second half.
now, either he was injured, which should concern us about his health, or he was protecting his value for free agency, which should piss us off about his desire.
Take a look beyond the BA. In September he had 114 PA, 4 doubles, 0 triples, 4 stolen bases. So out of 33 hits only 6 total were for extra bases (2 HR). That also means that around 27 times he was on 1st base and only attempted a steal in 4 of those 27. If you watched the games as well, you could tell (and it was commented on many times) he was in full protection mode; terrified that an injury would kill his chances at both the batting title and his big pay day.
We can “justify” letting Reyes walk all we want. Reyes at 132 and Tejada at 30 is still light years better than Tejada at 162. Also read the fangraphs piece if your own eyes don’t tell you Reyes is an elite player at a premium position. I love the Mets, but sorry if some of us hate losing, hate the fact that we haven’t won since 1986, hate the fact that we’re always behind the curve.
A team that wants to win doesn’t let their in his prime franchise SS walk away, period. At that price, Reyes is actually undervalued, and a huge asset. Another perspective – the Yanks signed a maybe 34 year old Jeter to an $18M a year 4 year deal? And we can’t give 6 years to a 28 year old who’s better than Jeter in his 132 games.
I cheer for the Mets, I just wish ownership and management were able to put in a product that was worth cheering for. Loyalty is great. Blind loyalty is stupid. So we’ll shout from the rooftops that the ship is sinking. I do have some hope though, maybe we can reach 4th place again by 2013. Yay.
Oh no, not the Yankees excuse again. That line of thinking has put the Mets in the position they are in. I read the fangraphs article and yeah if Reyes only misses about a month per year then statistically the deal would be ok. However, that also assumes he does not miss much longer and that he is able to sustain a high level into his 30′s. Those are big risk for the current Mets team regardless of the player.
If the Mets had came off of a 72 win season with a hole at SS along with all the other holes and had 20M to spend would you be clamoring for them to spend it on Jose X?
I call the Yankees fact perspective, not an excuse. Look what they did for their franchise 34 year old SS, look what we do to our 28 year old SS. I thought you liked facts. P.S. the fangraphs article accounts for declining stats, and doesn’t even take into account he might outplay what they’ve projected him to do.
Bottom line our team has a backup catcher starting, a 1B coming of season ending injury, a second baseman who can’t field his position, a young SS we hope can be adequate, a declining 3B, an overpaid underwhelming LF, a lost CF, and a RF who should be in LF. The rotation – the journeyman knuckleballer we all love (but who would be a #3 or #4 in good rotations, an overpaid former ace coming off season ending injury, a young lefty coming off injury who’s maybe hpefully a #3 someday, and two also rans. Bullpen will get better, how can it now. Bench will get better, how can it not.
No wonder you’re excited about not committing to Reyes. Who needs him anyway. Smh.
You mean how they forced their long time captan and a guy who helped win them several world series’ to hit the open market in an ugly public bidding war with one another?
Derek Jeter means more to the Yankee franchise and history than Jose Reyes ever will to the Mets.
At the end of the day – they signed an older Jeter to a higher value contract. That’s the point.
they signed Derek Jeter because he’ll be the face of their franchise for as long as he lives. People born in the 80′s will flock to Yankee stadium on old timers day 20 years from now just to see him.
Jeter’s contract has nothing to do with Reyes’. Jeter also won 5 World Series’ for his team, I’m sure you can see how they are slightly different there right
You still don’t get it. The Yankees can and were in much better position to do that than the Mets were. Keep in mind just a few years ago the Yankees were not in position to do that with Bernie Williams and kicked him to the curb and will be doing the same thing to Posada this year.
and jesseps love, sandy, has done nothing to improve this since he got here. our roster makes swiss cheese look whole.
So here is my question, if that is your impression of the team then why would it be wise sign him anyway?
The Yankee comment was is and will always be pointless. The Yankees have a 200M+ payroll or at least are capable of that at any time. The Mets are not, nor do I want them to be.
And yes the fangraphs article does account for some regression but how much? For 2009 and 2010 combined he had a 3.7 WAR. That’s COMBINED. What happens to that value when he gives you another .8 and 2.9 during the “prime” of the contract?
Again, is that a risk THIS team could take?
1. The Yankees won 5 world series. Not Derek and no one else.
2. We won’t flock to old timers’ day because we don’t ever hold on to our homegrown stars (i.e. Seaver, Ryan, Strawberry, Doc, etc.). Obviously there were circumstances around each, but it doesn’t change the fact we didn’t hold on to them.
3. Posada and Bernie were no longer serviceable for the money they commanded. Posada is the 5th best option at catcher right now. 5th. Bernie, it was time to move on – he was 38 I believe, not 28 like Reyes.
6. As for $200M payrolls, I’ll take $120M, or whatever number allows us to develop and keep our own talent.
7. Signing Reyes is a risk. All long term deals are risks. I get that. But we have two overpriced contracts on the books who will be off in 2 years. I’m not saying any team should spend to spend. I’m just saying, payroll wise, we actually have a lot of pieces who are on rookie deals. We should be in a better position to make moves like holding on to Reyes.
8. Seriously tell me when we can go .500. That’s why this is disappointing. We just got worse, don’t ask me to like it.
Sept was probably his 3rd best month of his season – look it up. His averag was .340 and his slugging percentage for that month was his 3rd highest for the season.
reyes was just a little rusty after he came back, but by the end, he was playing just as good as he was before expect for the SB’s(but, hey, I thought those were a “footnote”?)
4 doubles, 0 triples 4 stolen bases in 120 PA. Did you watch the games?
He hit .340! did you watch the games? That’s higher that what his average was for the season. Your just looking for any exucse to defend this HORRIBLE move by the Mets.
And somehow what he did in the 1st half of the year doesn’t count.
Of course it counts. So high batting average is what we should look for in a player and we obviously should pay him based on his ability to get singles. He was terrified to stretch out ANYTHING post injury. It was clear and even commented on many times by the booth as well.
Here is a fun BA stat for you. From August 10th-September 27th: Ruben Tejada: .336 .400 .423 .823 with 12 extra base hits and 4 stolen bases!
Better extend the guy right now!
When your talking about half seasons you can make anyone look good or bad.
Lets look at what reyes did in total, not just cherry picked months of his season.
” His averag was .340 and his slugging percentage for that month was his 3rd highest for the season.”
Not terribly impressive in a 6 month season. It just goes to show how his numbers were carried by a 2 month span. He had 2 phenomenal months, 3 good months and one where he played 5 games.
Just look at what he did for a full year.
You can make anybody look bad if you cherry pick their worst months.
What you guys are doing is so unfair.
Why RAISE SPRING TRAINING TICKET PRICES when you are fielding a SEMI-PRO team?
This essay is on point in many regards. The one aspect I believe that has been left out is that we are a long way from Spring training and what the organization ultimately tries to sells us as the 2012 New York Mets. What does Sandy and Co. do with the money saved, not signing Reyes? If this simply goes into ownership pockets, then I think we as fans simply have a right to spend our entertainment dollars elsewhere. No need to support an inferior product and believe me, empty seats will speak volumes.
I choose to take the wait and see approach. If Alderson turns this into a couple of good relievers, a middle infielder with some offense, etc. plus the two extra picks for the minor league system, then I get it.
Either way, I am still a Met fan for better or worse. As a kid, I remember the Seaver trade. NOTHING was worse than that. This is who we are. Hang on, as usual it will be a bumpy ride.
Well it will not be going into the Wilpons’ pockets as too many other hands are in there as well. However, some of it will and has to go towards paying back some of the loans whose interest is killing the team as is.
Also, the market is terrible to start with. No one out there, including Reyes, that was going to make this team competitive for 2012 baring a LOT of guys stepping up.
Good article. 3 snaps. Z formation.
Great article!!!!
I am disappointed as a Mets fan, but fact is, I got over the Seaver trade, I’ll get over this too.
I think I dreaded more the blogs this morning, then recapping the actual signing. The venom is over the top.
All I know is, I still have to go to work, still have to pay my mortgage, and Reyes playing in NY or FL will have no impact on that.
It’s a hobby – not life…………….
so glad you are ok with last place, the wilpons must love you, u will follow them off a cliff.
I see you still have no reading comprehsion skills and continue to make ups lies up about what said. Come back when you are a grown up.
I wanted to keep Reyes. Especially when i find the terms of the deal to be resonable for a player of Reyes age ability position ect. I honestly thought he was going to go for more. But It’s not just Reyes didnt sign, we didn’t even try. And we were mislead by the Wilpons, by Sandy. Im a Met fan but i find that unacceptable. I find that the direction that they are taking the team as unacceptable. Im tired of eveyone being so concerned for the Wilpons financial situation, they are billionaires don;’t weep for them. There are options for them to provide liquidity to run the Mets properly, they choose the spoiled brat route, their decsioin is to cut payroll by 40% and ‘rebuild’. Rebuild with no real plan to rebuild. That became completely clear yesterday anything that comes out of Alderson’s mouth is hot air going forward imo. The Mets rebuilding process just took a couple of steps backwards.
And don’t blame Reyes for leaving when we made such a lackluster effort if any at all. Nobody should have to take a massive discount to stay, Jose liked playing here im sure if the Mets offered him something at mkt rate he would have accepted. The best point of this article is we didn’t see other teams with money going after Jose, solid point. At least none that we know of maybe the Marlins early push helped in this matter, im not sure. Other then that to say there was no parade w Jose holding up a championship would be to pin it on him when there are way more factors that contribute. Jose Reyes is a championship calibur player imo. The Marlins signed a great player and the signing will look cheap imo, free agent contracts have really racheted up recently .
Im too exhausted to ramble on anymore but if you are a Met fan first you should be disappointed in the direction and choices this team is making imo. Also, I am boycotting Citi Field next season, that I promise you..
Rickey,
Agree 100%. What I don’t get is that if you know you’re not going to sign the guy, why not trade him at the 2011 deadline, and get something back? The fact that we let him walk without making much of an effort to sign him seems very shortsighted.
I think if we traded Reyes at the deadline and got back another Wheeler type prospect, at least it would show there was a plan with some direction and would be easier to stomach. This just seems very shortsighted. We lose arguably one of the greatest players we’ve ever had for nothing.
Well I live in South Florida and just came home from the store, unfortunately for me my front plate reads NY METS , at every light I had comments about the team we can’t afford to put a little league team on the field and it went on& on about 5 different cars, it was embarrassing guess I have to take the plate off, only 1 man said Thank you for giving us Jose.
Jessep,
Morrison played very bad defense last year.
And maybe Morrison has more value than Murphy, you can’t say that he’s THAT much more valuable.
Murphy had a great year last year, and he does have power, maybe not a lot of HR power, but he can hit for extra bases – I mean it’s not like he’s just a weak singels hitter.
OK I will say it. At the time of that demand Morrison was MUCH MUCH MUCH more valuable than Daniel Murphy.
Um, I just read that a few weeks ago.
OK lets assume that demand was just a couple of weeks ago. The demand started with Mike Stanton. Do you really want to compare him to Daniel Murphy as well? 141 OPS+ with 34 HR. So do you want to couple Murphy with uh… Davis to get him?
But they said they would also do it for Morrison. If they would do Morrison + prospects for Gio, then I’m sure they would do Murphy + prospects for him too.
“Buster Olney, who notes that the A’s did not ask for Logan Morrison in brief check-in talks with the Marlins.”
“Gonzalez is coveted by many contenders, with the Yankees at the head of the pack, and he’d be at peak value right now, coming off a career year and with an excellent health record.”
” I’d think it would have to take a Dan Haren-like deal to pry Gonzalez away, for instance, and I don’t see that happening in the current climate. “
I don’t remember reading that, but ok. It doesn’t matter really. The Mets do have to peices to pull of a trade for a number 2 guy, and it doesn’t have to be Gio(who would probably cost the most of all the guys I listed).
If the Mets got somebody like that(and kept Reyes) with Santana coming back, and they fixed the bullpen, the Mets would have had a nice team….and I would have been excited for next season and beyond.
Yeah if they traded a top prospect along with Murphy and others they MIGHT be able to net one of those guys. However, factoring in that hit as well as the price for Reyes and the price for bullpen help….
Again no matter how you spin it they do not have the resources to compete for next year unless all hell breaks loose.
If the Mets went to trade Murphy and a top prospect, they would be able to get one of those guys(maybe not Gio). The Mets would be giving up a LOT, and would get somebody good back. And who knows, maybe there is somebody who’s name hasn’t been mentioned that could be available for Murphy + prospects.
The bullpen could be fixed cheaply – look at the rays last year they rebuilt the bullpen without spending a dime – We can still have a decent bullpen without spending much – It’s been done before.
And I’m not spinning anything at all, with some better pitching(and Reyes), this team would have been a nice team – That’s a fact.
I cant wait for the press conference from Jose Reyes. Top questions:
1. Did you feel the Mets ever wanted you back?
2. Were you treated fairly by the Mets during this promise, do you feel you were the top priority they said you were?
3. Would you have taken less to play for the Mets?
I cant wait to hear those answers.
This was just another case of kicking any Los Mets players off the team. If Johan had an ERA under 4.00 by June he’ll be gone too. Dickey, Niese, Gee, Pelfrey they have job security with this front office.
Is there something you want to say but are too scared to?
Preach on sir. You’re preaching to the choir. Most met fans need to think(accept) this
Let me correct this: All Met fans have to accept this.
Doesn’t mean all Met fans have to like it though. That’s the point some are missing. Give those who want to ‘mourn’ the time it’ll take. Just about all knew it was coming but until it did, it wasn’t reality.
It’s now that reality.
Let’s see what they can do going forward.
I think most have lowered any expectations for competing in the near future. Just follow along now to see how they dig themselves out of the hole ownership has dug. Word of warning: Might not happen until they’re forced to sell though…
Great article Jessep.
Just don’t understand why they didn’t trade Reyes at the deadline if they knew this day was coming (and they had to have known, given the financial circumstances).
The fact that we’re losing a player like Reyes for nothing shows a lack of vision. I agree that not signing Reyes to a 6 year deal is probably the correct move, but if that’s the case, trade him when you can and try and get something back.
If they got Wheeler for Beltran, imagine what they could’ve got for Reyes.
Cashing in on Reyes may have been the plan, but once he went on the DL at the worst possible time, it torpeadoed any chance at a big haul.
You think you can trade a speedster while he is on the DL with a bad hammy?
and when he came back, even fans at home could see he was not right, and was gimping a bit (and certainly holding back).
Now, if he was still blazing on 7/15 say? maybe some team would have said screw it and taken the bait. But that ship sailed when the hammy went bad.
Great article! I couldn’t agree more as a fellow die hard.
Well done Jessup! I certainly agree with just about everything you wrote except for one little point.As bad as the Barry Zito deal was and this is not hindsight because I thought it was nuts at the time as well as the signing of Aaron Rowand by the Giants but as bad as both those contracts were it’s hard to say they crippled them when they just won a WS a year ago.Other than that this may be the best article you’ve written.At least the ones I’ve read.I never read the infamous Brad Emaus article that some keep bringing up.lol
this is by far the best article I’ve ever read on this site Jessep. bravo man.
Excellent post
Since you felt compelled to bring the LeBron debacle into your article about Reyes I thought at least someone should respond with the correct facts.
You stated, “LeBron James KNEW the Cavs couldn’t do as much for him financially over the long-term that the Heat could. If he wanted to stay in Cleveland, he could have found ways to work within their limits to get the best deal for all parties involved. Instead, he followed the money”.
Except it’s not factually true. I assume you’ve never heard of the “Larry Bird exception” to the NBA salary cap. It would have allowed Cleveland to pay more to LeBron over the life of his contract than any other team could.
In fact, LeBron didn’t technically leave Cleveland via free agency. He actually signed the max deal with the Cavs & then was traded to the Heat after he announced he was leaving.
The Heat agreed to this so LeBron could get a full payday & the Cavs agreed to it because they got some plum draft picks from Miami as a result of the trade, instead of nothing if he left via free agency.
Stupid move on Miami’s part, hopefully it will work out for the Cavs.
CavsFan: thanks for commenting
I guess my confusion was my understanding on the Larry Bird rule was the Cavs were the only ones who could offer 6 years, whereas everybody else could offer 5. But since it was technically a sign and trade, LeBron got his 6 years. I guess my theory or logic behind it was there is more money to make down in Miami than there was in Cleveland because he had exhausted his popularity in Cleveland… Miami will grow his financial assets.
Plus can’t LeBron get a raise now every year in salary because of how the deal was done? So that’s probably over a million each year and then I know there was some sort of option involved, kind of like an ARod/CC Opt Out which could in theory let LeBron hit the open market yet again. Did he have that chance with Cleveland? Probably not.
I get your point, just wanted to explain my understanding of the situation, but I don’t dare say I’m an NBA Expert.