16
2011
What Was Alderson Really Saying On WFAN This Morning?
An article by 
As usual, there’s a lot of issues floating around the Mets, and general manager Sandy Alderson touched on several this morning on WFAN.
Not all his comments can be interpreted in the positive, and for the most park he spoke in GM-speak, which means more smoke than fire and nothing definitive.
Among the issues:
Jose Reyes:
Alderson recognized the year Reyes is having, but said he doesn’t know if the shortstop intends to test free agency and hasn’t determined the parameters of a contract offer.
This seems incomprehensible. First of all, How can Alderson not plan on Reyes testing the market? He can’t be naïve enough to believe the player will take what the Mets offer in the offseason without testing the market. The only way he won’t is if he commits to the Mets now and he certainly won’t without a contract offer.
For an offer to be made, Alderson has to have limits and I can’t see how an opening offer hasn’t already been determined, even with the Wilpon’s financial troubles. The Mets must know the price keeps rising the better Reyes performs and they need to make a decision now on whether they want to keep him.
Reyes has played well enough, and long enough, so far for that decision to be made. If the Mets are waiting to see if he’ll make it through the year healthy, then they seriously risk losing him. The longer this drags on, the odds get longer on him staying with the Mets.
As far as trading him, Alderson won’t tip his hand, but must realize that with how well the team is playing he risks the fans losing interest if the Mets deal Reyes.
Joe D: You can point to Reyes as the stumbling block to a deal all you wat, but until he is given a legitimate offer, Reyes hasn’t refused any deal or even played his hand. In fact I believe Reyes is as shocked as fans are that he hasn’t even been contacted once about an extension ever since last season ended until now. You wanted to see if he was healthy first and what he can do? I believe you’ve all seen enough. Pick up the phone.
Francisco Rodriguez:
If the Mets plan on contending, they’ll need a closer and Rodriguez is pitching lights out. Quite simply, as long as the Mets play close games, Rodriguez will get opportunities to finish games and subsequently that $17.5 million option will kick in.
The Mets can trade Rodriguez if they offer a negotiating window to the new team to work out an extension instead of the option.
It was a lousy contract, but there’s little the Mets can do about it now. If they limit Rodriguez they risk losing games and having a grievance filed against them by the Players Association, which they’ll lose.
If the Mets trade Rodriguez it would be a clear white flag on the season. If that is the case and they are able to deal Rodriguez, they might as well go the whole route and move Carlos Beltran and Reyes, also.
Joe D. – We will soon learn if the front office believes in these Mets as much as they ask fans to believe. If they start moving key pieces while the team is 3.5 games out of a playoff berth, it will be clear that winning is certainly not a priority, and that shedding more salary is. It will also indicate that the rumors regarding a $100 million dollar payroll next season, are more fact than fiction. As for K-Rod’s option? I couldn’t give a rat’s behind about whether it vests or not. We are in a battle and the team is winning and great job by Terry Collins for using K-Rod as he sees fit. Lets see some of Terry’s win-first philosophy in the front office at the deadline.
David Wright, Ike Davis and Johan Santana:
Alderson said the returns of these players would be akin to making a trade at the deadline, which often is GM-speak for not doing anything.
It irks me when I hear that because it isn’t like making a trade. Had these players not been hurt, the Mets would probably be better, but how much? Maybe it is coincidental they are playing their best ball without Wright and Davis.
Anyway, getting these players back might make the Mets whole again, but just how good would that be? Certainly not enough to win the division and maybe not enough for a wild card.
The Mets are playing well rand have reached .500, but not much was expected going into the season and it can be concluded they are playing over their heads.
Joe D. - Where have we heard this before? Omar Minaya used to play this card quite often leading up to the trade deadline. “When we get Delagdo, Reyes and Maine back it will be better than anything we could pick up in a trade.” Sadly that never happened. It never does. Those are just things we tell ourselves to keep the fans from simply staying home and not coming to the park.
Come to the park:
Alderson said he hopes people will show up at Citi Field, thereby adding additional revenue. However, the bottom line is people will show up if the product is winning, and the first step to putting a competitive team on the field is to not trade off the key parts.
That means the ball is in the Mets’ court.
Joe D. – Like the saying goes… If you build it (a championship caliber team), they will come.
About the Author: John Delcos
I am an active member of the BBWAA and have covered Major League Baseball in several capacities for over 20 years, including ten in New York working the Mets' and Yankees' beat. I covered the Baltimore Orioles for eight years and the Cleveland Indians before that. I currently serve as an editor and senior staff writer for Mets Merized Online. Follow me on Twitter @jdelcos.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 28 | .600 | - |
| Nationals | 34 | 35 | .493 | 7.5 |
| Phillies | 34 | 37 | .479 | 8.5 |
| Mets | 25 | 40 | .385 | 14.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 47 | .319 | 19.5 |
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Funny “getting Ike, Wright, Santana back would be like making a trade at the deadline”….
I am eerily reminded of 2009. Omar Minaya saying the same exact thing about Reyes Beltran and Delgado.
Sandy basically read a few chapters out loud of the “GM Cliché Book” issued upon filling out their W-4. It was a good way to fill 15 minutes of the J&E show.
Ya, pretty much. Even if they were negotiating, Alderson would be an idiot to start divulging details.
I predict we’ll get a lot of the same from Reyes this afternoon with Francesa.
Sandy has a lot of nerve telling fans to come out and “add additional revenue”. When EVERY indication is that the team has no intention of spending any “revenue” anyway. Let’s see you jerks make Reyes an offer, Sandy, and don’t insult him with a lowball figure. How about you sign a few players to something more substantial than 1 to 1.5 million dollar contracts and minor league deals. How about trying to make a trade to help this team get better, Sandy? This team is as cheap as cheap can be, because what money they had they spent, like a 10 year-old child, and now there’s nothing left? Bernie Madoff blah, blah, blah? So those losses and mistakes have to now come out of the blood of the fans? BULLSHlT. When the front office starts treating the Mets and their fans like a big league baseball TEAM, and not a red-headed stepchild, THEN, and only then will they deserve to have the fans come out to “add additional revenue”. Why should the fans help you “add additional revenue” Sandy? To pay the Wilpon’s debts? To make Mutt and Jeff financially whole again? I think not! When do you plan on reinvesting our money in the team, Sandy? And not just funnel it all into the Wilpons account so they can pay off Mr. Einhorn, and thereby hang onto control of the team? Don’t you even get it Sandy? The ONLY power we have as fans, is that we hold the money that you want. If we don’t like the owners, and we don’t, the only way to get rid of them is to “starve them out”, or “burn them out”, or excise them like an infection. We, as fans, can and will outlast this ownership! When the Mets have new owners, and not before, will the fans come back. In the meantime Sandy how about we the fans, and you the GM, play a game of chicken, and see who will blink first? In a real war, the fans will always win, they just need to stick together. I’ll make a deal with you Sandy, you spend some money and effort on the team we love, and we’ll help you, “add additional revenue”.
To call this team cheap is quite ignorant.
Ok here we go again. Instead of bashing Sandy for who he signed and for how much. Why dont you provide details on who you would have liked to see signed?
Im guessing you’re in the camp that wanted a 32 year old Cliff Lee for 120 million. Or an overrated Werth for 7/126. Or a guy who like Crawford at 7/142.
If you’re going to bash at least provide some facts in there.
Nothing but hot air. It was all defelcting the issues and nothing substantial was gained or learned by lietening to that interview. I wish I had my 13 minutes back. It’s becoming increasingly clear that we are in cost cutting mode. This off season was all we heard was about the lack of flexibility so we gave them a pass, but in return they are heading down the path of least resistance. That is telling us what they think we want to hear without ever really saying anything at all. They skirted the issues and I even sensed that he was laying this whol re-signing Reyes thing at his feet? Did anyone else get that too? All Reyes has said is that he wishes to stay with the Metys and he likes the city and the ballpark and team. What more can he say? The last time he was asked in Houston he stood by his locker and said “It’s not me you know. I dont have the power. It’s up to them if they want me.” By them he means Sandy Alderson I’m sure. This is starting to feel a little bit to familiar. Is it 1977?
Alderson hemmed and hawed like a see saw playground. He dodged the questions and i LOVED when Evan said to him you do realize that you’re gonna get Vancouver like riots around here if he lets Reyes walk ESPECIALLY if the Mets are in the middle of a race. To be fair if Reyes asks for something like 7 years I don’t think i’d give it to him either so we’ll see.
Imagine, the Mets current success and the fact they may be in contention is their OWN GM’s worst nightmare. Basically it’s not my money and I don’t care what millionaires do with each other’s money but we better retain the BEST team possible to be competing this year and next year and that includes Reyes.
I dont see why we cant do 7 years. Offer 5 years garunteed and 2 option years. Id say 1 player option and 1 club option.
in less words, the fans want reyes to be signed and the mets to acquire players at the deadline, well, come to the ballpark and spend your hard earne money, so the crooked wilpons can pay their debt and put a competitive (not championship caliber) team on the field…
the more and more days go by, i see reyes a goner, he’ll get paid, not by the wilpons, and if we don’t fill up the ball park they will low ball reyes to some crappy offer, he’ll decline, then trade him and he’ll come up saying “we gave him a compeptitive offer” but unfortunately he declined and we had to move on…
too bad jose reyes has to go.. i don’t and refuse to believe it will happen, but it will as the days continue to pass ..
“Alderson recognized the year Reyes is having, but said he doesn’t know if the shortstop intends to test free agency and hasn’t determined the parameters of a contract offer.
This seems incomprehensible. First of all, How can Alderson not plan on Reyes testing the market? He can’t be naïve enough to believe the player will take what the Mets offer in the offseason without testing the market. The only way he won’t is if he commits to the Mets now and he certainly won’t without a contract offer.”
There’s a difference in saying, “I don’t know what Reyes wants to do” and “I have no plan”. The Mets may very well have already mapped out how much they want to offer and what they intend to do in each case. What I’m certain they haven’t done is read Reyes’ mind. Mainly because that’s impossible.
No matter what he says in an interview, it comes down to Reyes FA. He will want 20+ per year and the mets (and myself) think that is too much.
We honestly don’t know what he will ask. His agent may look at the market and think thats not feasible. You never know.
Welcome to Moneyball II the sequel. Cheap payrolls, cheap players, big profits, no championships.
Yeah, it’s not like those late 90′s/early 00′s Oakland A’s won at least 87 games 8 seasons seasons in a row, including over 91 wins 6 times and over 100 wins twice, with 5 playoff appearances. Those teams sucked.
Oh wait…they did win at least 87 games 8 consecutive seasons? They did win over 91 games 6 times in 8 years? They did win over 100 games twice and made the playoffs 5 times? Interesting, considering that would be the most dominant period of winning in Mets history if that was us.
The most you can do is get yourself in the race and to the playoffs. Once the playoffs start, it’s a crapshoot. It’s a lottery ticket and you have to hope to be the hottest of the 8 teams.
Well you don’t get a trophy for just being “good”. They never were the best team in the AL during the regular season anway…one year they did tie for the best reord with the Yankees, but the Yankees had a better team that year.
“The most you can do is get yourself in the race and to the playoffs. Once the playoffs start, it’s a crapshoot. It’s a lottery ticket and you have to hope to be the hottest of the 8 teams.”
Nope, that’s not true, that’s just an excuse because they never won in the playoffs. yeah sure, some of the time the best team doesn’t always win, like 06 Mets, but the A’s were the never the best team anyway, and if you keep getting knocked out in the 1st round of the playoffs year after year, it’s not a fluke, it means you aren’t as good as the teams you’re playing against.
Whats the trophy for highest payroll?
and what does that have to do with anything? I didn’t bring up payrolls, and Senorstem didn’t either.
I just don’t get what you’re trying to say with your post up above. Okay, sure those A’s didn’t win a World Series. Maybe they weren’t as good as those Yankees then (and those were some stacked Yankees teams that barely beat the A’s 3 games to 2). So are you trying to say that it’s better to have a bad team? Is it better to not be in the race at all?
If you can’t admit that the A’s were an outstanding baseball team from 1999-2006, I think I might have to question your understanding of what makes a baseball team good. Because strings of 8 straight seasons of winning at least 87 games doesn’t happen very often. The Mets have certainly never had that. Sure, it’s not as good as the Braves or Yankees’ runs but 8 consecutive years of more than 87 victories and 5 playoff appearances is pretty impressive.
Yes that’s it, I said it’s better to have a bad team than a good team – That’s EXACTLY what I said.
They were not an outstanding team, they were just a good team. Like I said below, there was plenty of good teams in the last ten years, so what’s so special about them? A book? What makes what they did more impressive than the Twins, or the Marlins who won the WS in 97 and 03?
and why as a Mets fan do you care about the A’s having good teams for 8 years? why do you defend them so much? are you an A’s fan? You sound like one. and they never did anything great, they were never the best, and they suck now.
..and the Mets had some good seasons during that time too but Ohhhhhhh Noooooooo..that doesn’t care because Omar was BAD, very very BAD.
I guess that’s the culture we live in now, with all the attention Rex Ryan gets and all there seems to be a celebration of mediocrity. Let’s celebrate those who don’t finish last, yeah that’s it. Let’s celebrate and make movies about people who haven’t won anything.
And oh by the way, Billy HillaBean has been A’s GM since 1998 or so which is plenty of time for his “belief” to be fully incorporated into the A’s franchise from the lowest levels to the big club.
And they continue to get WORSE. So yeah, let’s make a movie about that and call these guys the model for all teams, even in New York.
Omar’s teams had 3 good seasons and then he collapsed into himself like a dying star. How is that a good tenure and how is that not at all hypocritical?
Apparently, BMF thinks Beane put together good teams for 8 straight years but he’s not that good, meanwhile Omar put together 3 good teams until the weight of all the giant contracts caved in on him and he’s award worthy? Seems like you have some sour grapes and biases against Mr. Beane. What did he do to you? Did his statistics burn down your home? Did his market inefficiencies kill your brother? Why can’t you give the guy credit where it’s due for the good teams that he’s built?
I give credit to Minaya for his 3 good teams, even though I don’t agree with the poor way in which they were built. Why can’t you give Beane the credit he’s due for winning for nearly triple the amount of years Minaya did, with likely half the payroll?
Hey Senorsilly..2005,2006,2007 and 2008 were pretty good seasons. Omar didn’t have 500 drafts picks a year like Beane did. Any FOOL can draft talent if they let their current studs walk off, like Chokeland has every season since the 90′s.
He didn’t have draft picks because he willingly threw them in the garbage for Moises Alou and Jason Bay, among others. That’s his OWN FAULT.
The Moises Alou example is weak because he felt that was a guy that could have helped this team win at the time. Too bad SenorStemcell wasn’t here back then to predict before the fact that Alou would get injured. The guy hit over .340 while he was here and if he didn’t get hurt was a difference maker.
Kind of like when Billy’s Beans spend 10 Million on Ben Sheets didn’t work out. Or was that different?
Atleast Omar never made a trade as bad as Milton Bradely for Andre Either, or Carlos Gonzalez and Huston Street for a half year of Matt Holiday. And the player they got back when they traded Holiday to the Cards(Wallace) they traded him and he’s now hitting .300 for the Astro’s
It’s not hard to find out why they haven’t had a winning season since 06.
If Minaya waits one week he most likely keeps the first round pick. Then it’s a good sign. As it was Moises did play great but for only 100 games over two years and even at that was usually out of the game in the 7th inning.
Giving away, without even waiting to see if SF offers Alou arb, a #1 draft choice was a terrible thought process. With the farm Omar inherited? For a guy with at most a couple of years? With a long injury history? At 40 years old? Give me a ****** break.
Left on the board after where would have picked was Travis D’Anaurd (part of the Halliday deal) Think we could use a catcher someday. Starting pitching? How about Tommy Hunter or Jordan Zimmerman? RFer? How about Mike Stanton? We couldn’t have used any of these guys?
Then to follow up with Kunz, Vineyard, Rustich, Moviel, Niessen and Clyne in the supp, 2nd and 3rd rounds. Yeah he got Carson, Lutz and Duda latter but neither of them are anything close to sure things and Gee was probably his best pick ever (21st round) but for a team as weak in the farm as we were in 2007 to just give away the pick when we almost assuredly didn’t have to is just shooting your self in the foot. It’s what keeps us going decades without a decent longterm solution at numerous positions.
Really ****** moronic.
and agee follows with his daily parade of 100 Names just like Billy’s Beans signed a pitcher with an injury history too and for 10 million dollars.
But the Second Guesser agee won’t go into that instead he goes after Minaya. Yeah sure, the signing of Alou really had that type of domino effect on the drafts and signings down the road.
I think agee subsribes to the Kevin Bacon Six Degrees of Separation with his silly, ridiculous “Ultimate Cumulative Second Guess” posts
So agee what’s your Parade of 100 Names post regarding Billy’s Beans signing of Ben Sheets for 10 Million dollars? How has it affected his drafts since then? Or is it too early to tell and you need a few more years for the full effect of the Ultimate Second Guess post you do?
Boston got Clay Buckholtz with a supp pick for losing Pedro and a washout catcher with our 2nd round pick.
They also got Kolbrin Vitek, Anthony Ranaudo for “losing” Wagner and Bryce Brentz for “losing” Bay.
Vitek 3B Carolina League A+ so far this year .259/.328/.347 9 doubles and 6 triples.
Ranaudo RHP Just promoted to A+ Carolina League.
Brentz RFer just promoted to A+ Carolina League has so far this year had 11 doubles, 3 triples and 13 HR’s and before his promotion was hitting .359/.414/.647 and has had 11 assists in 111 minor league games.
This is how you renew your 25 man roster, not by giving up a #1 draft choice for a 31 or a 40 year old LFer.
I’m not a Beanehead. I don’t think he’s done that great in the draft or in trades (except with us) I don’t subscribe to most of his philosophies. I don’t think they have any relevance here in NY anyway but I do give him credit for being able to compete successfully within his own division for an extended period.
Examining what has gone right and what hasn’t is hardly a 2nd guess, especially when you were against the moves at the time.
Boston also got our 2nd rounder in 2010 for Bay who they turned into a starting pitching prospect currently in the Sally League who through 13 start has a 4+ K/BB ratio by the name of Brandon Workman.
Tough decision. Would you rather have Bryce Brentz and Brandon Workman under team control for 6 years when (if) they get up to the Majors or have Jason Bay clogging up your roster for 5 years and possibly costing you the best player this team has ever produced?
Alou, Castillo, Perez, Bay. Really well thought out.
Am I an A’s fan? No I’m not. It’s just I’m a Mets fan that realizes that we happen to have 3 of the 4 key figures of the A’s front office leading the Mets front office now (Alderson, DePo, Ricciardi). It’d make sense to look at the great work they did while they were there so we can compare what could be accomplished here, right?
And I never said that they were more impressive than the Twins. The Twins have been very impressive over the past decade and run their team in much the same way those Oakland teams did…spending in the draft and IFA markets to develop the farm system and develop future star major leaguers. The conversation wasn’t about the the Twins, though. It was about the Oakland A’s. I don’t see how the Twins make the A’s any less impressive, considering that they also have not won a World Series and have been past the first round once, just like the A’s.
And the Marlins? They bought the 1997 championship and then blew up the team. How is that impressive? That’s downright despicable. I’ll give you the 2003 championship, which came mostly from the farm and shrewd trades but they even blew that team up. Sorry, but I prefer sustained success across multiple years over short bursts of winning for a year or two followed by years of ineptitude (aka the Mets way).
“It’s just I’m a Mets fan that realizes that we happen to have 3 of the 4 key figures of the A’s front office leading the Mets front office now (Alderson, DePo, Ricciardi). It’d make sense to look at the great work they did while they were there so we can compare what could be accomplished here, right?”
Alderson wasn’t on the A’s during the years you are talking about – Beane was the GM, so your defending Beane, and he has nothing to do with the Mets.
And if we are going to look at what J.P did in the past, we should look at the Blue Jays not the A’s – that would make more sense because he was GM there for a long time – they never finished above 3rd place. Depo hasn’t done a good job drafting in the past, just so you know, he had very very weak drafts.
So I don’t know what the “great work” they done is.
And you’d rather have a “good team” that has never won anything, instead of a team that won two WS?
I’d much rather have two world series rings, instead of getting knocked out of the 1st round of playoffs every year.
Yes, I’d much rather have a team that’s good consistently instead of a team that is good once or twice a decade like the Mets have been. You have more chances to win a World Series when your team is in the playoff race more often. That’s typically the way it works.
Just because the those A’s teams didn’t win a World Series, doesn’t mean that they had no chance to win a World Series. Hindsight is 20/20. They had 5 chances to win a WS because they made the playoffs 5 times. Unfortunately they didn’t win it all but at least they had more chances than the Mets of the last decade, who had 2 chances to win the WS (2000 and 2006).
they didn’t win it because they weren’t good enough to win it.
simple as that.
So what? Do you get a trophy for being bad? If you’re in the playoff race and in the playoffs, you have a better chance of winning the trophy then being in last place.
How is this a hard concept to understand?
“If you’re in the playoff race and in the playoffs, you have a better chance of winning the trophy then being in last place.”
Well, thanks for pointing that out because I would have never figured that out if didn’t tell me………
So anyway, A’s were never the best team in the regular season or the postseason…they were good but not the best. There was plenty of good teams around the league in the last ten years, so I have no idea why everyone makes such a big deal about them because there’s nothing special about them.
It’s funny, because you didn’t seem to understand that point. I’ll pat myself on the back for teaching you something new.
So only the best team deserves praise? Only the best team in the league can win a World Series? You should tell that to the 2006 Cardinals, the 2010 Giants, even the 1969 Mets who are the best example of a team getting hot at the right time and winning at all.
You don’t see what the A’s did? Do you know how many games they won and how minuscule their payrolls were each year? Do you know how many solid players they developed through the draft and their own farm system? Have you ever heard of the big three? You are right in saying that they weren’t the best team but are in complete denial if you think they weren’t one of the top 5 teams in baseball for that period of time.
But you’re a met fan, why do you defend A’s so much if they never did anything great?
“Only the best team in the league can win a World Series?”
I already talked about that – They never were the best team, so you’re point there is meaningless.
“You don’t see what the A’s did? Do you know how many games they won and how minuscule their payrolls were each year? Do you know how many solid players they developed through the draft and their own farm system?”
Other teams did good too, with a low payroll, and developed more soild players than the A’s did during that time frame – So again if other teams did the same thing as them and some did even better, what makes the A’s so special?
Why do you defend that franchise so much?
Why do you make everything like it’s a personal vendetta?
Name me other teams who were AS or MORE successful than the A’s with AS low a payroll or lower.
I’ll even start you off with the obvious choice:
Minnesota Twins.
Now name me the rest of these teams with low payrolls that had more than 8 consecutive winning seasons. I’m pretty sure that they don’t exist.
That’s a trick question to make them look better than what they are, I can do the same thing:
what other team besides the marlins, won more than two WS, with a low payroll. I’m pretty sure they don’t exist.
See, I can play the same game too.
and sure they had good teams for 8 years, but so what? who cares if a team played good(but not great) for 8 years? There’s nothing special about that, and the guy who was GM, has nothing to do with the Mets.
You said this:
“Other teams did good too, with a low payroll, and developed more soild players than the A’s did during that time frame”
I’m just asking you to name me these other teams, since you know all of these other teams so well. You’re the one who’s playing games and dodging my questions. You obviously just made that “fact” up to satisfy your inane point, which doesn’t really exist. You have absolutely no credibility because you just make things up. In order to get people to respect you, you have to use facts to back it up.
I find it interesting you’d rather watch a bad team for 8 years than a good team for 8 years. It really helps me to understand that you just prefer to b**** and moan about things instead of watching good baseball. Apparently you don’t like to watch pennant races. It’s funny that the person who appreciates sabermetrics likes to actually watch good baseball, while the typical baseball mongo (you) doesn’t like watching good baseball. I thought everybody in sabermetrics didn’t watch baseball and only looked at spreadsheets and numbers all the time.
And I’ll answer your question, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with either of our arguments:
None. No other team did. But I’m not the one saying that there is another team like the Marlins.
Twins, Rays, Rockies, Marlins, Rangers, Brewers, and Reds – Those teams do good and don’t usually have high payrolls.
And as for developing players. Here you go, let’s just look at the other teams in the NL east:
Phillies: Rolen, Rollins, Burrell, Meyers, Hamels, Utley, Howard, Bourn, Madson, Happ, Kendirck, Ruiz, Byrd, and Brown.
Marlins: Beckett, A Sanchez, Uggla, Nolasco Josh JOhnson, Morrison, Stanton, Coglhan, and Gabby Sanchez.
Braves: Hanson, Heyward, Freeman, Jurrjens, Beachy, Prado, INfante, Kimbrel, Venters, and Mccann.
There’s your “facts”. And your the one making things up, when did I say I’d rather watch bad team for 8 years rather than a good team for 8 years? I didn’t. Now here’s what I REALLY said:
“I’d much rather have two world series rings, instead of getting knocked out of the 1st round of playoffs every year.”
Talk about spin….
And why should I stop with the NL east? I’ll give you some more:
Brewers: Braun, Feilder, Hardy, Hart, Weeks, Gallardo, and Axford.
Twins: Mauer, Mournea, Santana, Liriano, Span, Kubel, Cuddyer, Garza, and Bartlett.
Rays: Longoria, Crawford, Price, Sheilds, Young, Zobrist, Upton, and Hellickson.
Reds: Votto, Phillips, Cueto, Volquez, Stubbs, Leake, and Bruce.
And wait didn’t Felix, Andrus, and Saltalmacchia came up with the Braves too? I know they were traded in the Texiera deal- I fogot about them.
Cuz Omar was so much better with his expensive payroll, expensive players, big profits, no championships.
What we are seeing is not a product of moneyball, but rather the consequences of over a decade of terrible financial management and no real planning. Don’t blame Alderson or Madoff or anyone who wasn’t here making decisions for the slashed payroll.
Thank you for the burst of sanity, Donal. It is much appreciated, considering the mad ramblings I see from others in this thread.
DONAL- Dude, you’re brain must run on delay. How else was Omar supposed to build the team in 2005? Was he supposed to ask fukin Santa Claus for players? Lemme guess- you wanted him to develop a farm in 2 years (lol), sign cheap players, and allow Wright to be the main man on the team? You’re a FOOL if you think that was the answer. Omar HAD NO CHOICE but to open the wallet and BUY some talent. Talent our previous group of DOPEY GM’s STUNK at. Fools like yourself bury Omar for spending money to give UNGRATEFUL fans like yourself a team that won WAY more than they lost. No one was prepared, nor should they have been, for all their outfielders to go down in 2007 like they did. And when I mean all, I mean the rookies and backups as well. Who is prepared to replace their All-Star level closer? Nobody. John Maine was lost entirely too close to the deadline in 2008, as was Wagner, for the Mets to make a move. Remove the #2 starter and closer from a team competing for a playoff spot and you lose by 1 game like we did. Omar should have been commended for building a good team that was sabotaged by injuries to key players. Met fans like you are pathetic.
“How else was Omar supposed to build the team in 2005?”
He wasn’t. You don’t build for a season the preceding off season.
“Lemme guess- you wanted him to develop a farm in 2 years (lol), sign cheap players, and allow Wright to be the main man on the team? ”
I’d have happily given him 3 or 4 years if there was measurable progress. And a core of Wright, Reyes and Beltran with good role players would have worked out nicely.
“Omar HAD NO CHOICE but to open the wallet and BUY some talent.”
He certainly did. He could have stuck to his promise of building the team from within.
“Fools like yourself bury Omar for spending money to give UNGRATEFUL fans like yourself a team that won WAY more than they lost”
Won what? He had one play off appearance and that was when the entire rest of the division was in the crapper.
“No one was prepared, nor should they have been, for all their outfielders to go down in 2007 like they did.”
Beltran played 144 games in 2007, including almost all of August and September. and if you had no idea Alou was going to get hurt, you simply were not paying attention. When you put yourself in a position to rely on injury prone players, you lose that excuse.
“Who is prepared to replace their All-Star level closer? Nobody. ”
Too bad he traded away Heath Bell.
“Remove the #2 starter and closer from a team competing for a playoff spot and you lose by 1 game like we did. ”
And rely on 30+ year old injury prone pitchers like Pedro and El Duque and rush Mike Pelfrey to the majors and you shouldn’t expect to see October.
“Omar should have been commended for building a good team that was sabotaged by injuries to key players.”
Except for he brought in a bunch of injury prone guys to be our key players.
“Met fans like you are pathetic.”
You misspelled “knowledgeable”
but hey, keep on coming with whacky names for our FO and misunderstand the new terms you learn each day. Thats working out great for you.
The clear indication that this team had no firm foundation to support all these go for it now moves is the way any of our prospects were “developed.”
They all came up way too soon and for the most part didn’t advance the cause of actually winning baseball games.
Gomez, Fern, Milledge, Humber, Pelfrey, Niese, Parnell, Mejia, Murphy, Thole, Tejada. None of these guys came up ready to help win baseball games.
From 2005 – 2009 our minor league hitters were last (by a large margin) in AB’s before being rushed up here and that doesn’t even include Tejada. Our minor league pitchers were also last in IP and that doesn’t even include Mejia.
A GM’s job is to evaluate and project how players will play going forward, not backwards. Anyone could see that Beltran was a world class CFer. Not to say that anyone could have landed him in Queens. Minaya did do a great job there but few GM’s had the resources available to them to make that even matter.
Sometimes having “unlimited” resources is actually a detriment. Take 2007. We give up (voluntarily) our #1 draft choice which could very well have turned out to be Travis D’Anaurd (AAA catcher – Halliday deal) Jordan Zimmerman, Tommy Hunter or Mike Stanton and sign Moises Alou for 7.5 M. Philly signs Jayson Werth, gives up zippo (and in fact gets D’Anaurd) for $850,000. We get 100 games over two years and lose the chance to draft a high impact player for the future while Phillie gets 3 great years at very little cost and then collects TWO high draft choices.
Only considering compensatable free agents limits your options, costs a lot more money and robs you of fresh horses down the road keeping you trapped in the same old “who are we going to get to play _________?” every freakin year.
Phillie gets 550 games for 13 M and two years where Werth received MVP votes, two high draft picks and a big part of the Roy Halliday deal. We get 100 games over 2 years for 15 M and lose a #1 pick.
Explain to me again how Minaya did a better job on this than Gillick.
Getting players who play their best ball AFTER you get them works out a lot better than getting players who played their best ball before you get them.
When you can get the better performance without borrowing from the future, tying up payroll and clogging up the roster with injured or underperforming players and then actually get something for the better performing player when he leaves, that’s a great job by the GM.
When you evaluate correctly how well a player will fit into your park and lineup and how much time before his shelf life expires and what kind of an injury risk he posses you give your team a chance to win.
When your only focused on “who can we get to play ________?” every single year what looks good, frequently turns out to be bad.
Alou, Wagner, El-Duque, Pedro, Beltran, Delgado, Castillo, Putz, K-Rod, Schowenweiss, Bay, Perez, Schneider, Church, Santana all got hurt. Every single one of them. Some of them played like crap when they weren’t hurt too and most of the big money guys were over 30 which only increases the injury risk. Some were even hurt before they even got here. Many of them cost us our minor league depth or 1st 2nd and 3rd round draft picks where the most talented players come from. It’s a miricle that Glavine left anything behind or Murphy/Duda would be our opening day first basemen.
No wonder we always have 8-15 holes to fill every off season.
If this analysis was coming from someone who actually KNEW what they were talking about and/or could write, I might take it more seriously. By the way, John, you scoff at Alderson saying getting Wright and Davis back is comparable to making a trade? What else could it be? Are you going to find two players better than those two at the deadline? And if you could, who would you be trading for them? Unless you are going to DEAL Wright or Mike Pelfrey (which you may not be able to do now that Johan probably won’t be back), the Mets have nothing to trade other than Beltran, who won’t bring back a major league ready player.
As for the comment on trading K-Rod meaning Sandy would be giving up on the season, I say “nonsense.” Not only would the Mets be saving money and getting out from under that 55 games clause, they could slot even Parnell or Beato into the closer role and I guarantee they’d save almost as many games as K-Rod. Closers who aren’t Mariano Rivera are so overrated it’s ridiculous. I maintain that if you put Pat Misch out there with a lead in the ninth 50 times, he’d probably save 45 of them.
The Mets are playing over their heads? Besides Reyes’s batting average and Gee’s undefeated season so far, just who exactly is performing in a miracle way? Could you just please think things through before you throw these silly observations out there?
yep, forget about contending for the wild card with your best closer let’s move him instead and save money even though it’s not YOUR money.
And yeah okay, you’ll guarantee us that Parnell and Beato will save as many games as K-Rod, funny you say that the day after Parnell struck out 5 in 2 innings too.
You better think things through before telling Mr. Delcos anything. He has a much better grasp on things than you’ll ever have.
Haha. A person without a grasp on reality telling somebody else to get a grasp on reality.
That is the funniest thing I’ve read in a while.
What’s your point? Don’t waste the readers time then.
I said the other guy is crazy to wanting to trade K-Rod to save money in the middle of a pennant race.
Very funny.
You have zero reading comprehension skills. And I quote:
“He has a much better grasp on things than you’ll ever have.”
That is what you said. That’s what they mean when they say “the kettle calling the pot black.”
Youre not suggesting that Parnell and his 1.697 WHIP is going to replace one of the elite closers in the game are you?
What Alderson was saying with this interview was a signal to these players’ agents-the next move is up to you.
“David Wright, Ike Davis and Johan Santana:
Alderson said the returns of these players would be akin to making a trade at the deadline, which often is GM-speak for not doing anything.”
Something REALLY bothers me about this comment. Yes, Wright, Davis, and Santana will magically return to form off the DL and the Mets will be in the thick of things….PLEASE! Alderson cannot afford make the same mistake that has bit the Mets on the ass before, especially when a ton of heat is on him right now with the Jose Reyes situation. As rocky as the pen and bench been, if I was Alderson, I’d be looking to upgrade in those areas. You got guys possibly on the block for the pen like Bell, Papelbon, Clippard, Balfour, Soria, Adams, Breslow, etc. and you are gonna be content with just 3 guys that haven’t played in MONTHS? On top of that, as good as the Mets starting pitching staff been, I feel they need another starter that will help carry the Mets. A few days ago, I read on MLBTR that Jered Weaver could possibly be trade bait in a rebuilding phase should the Halos fall out of contention.
Speaking of the Reyes situation, I’m starting to think what’s going on with the Mets not contacting Reyes’s agent yet. He’s having an MVP season in his contract year and yet nothing?
“Alderson recognized the year Reyes is having, but said he doesn’t know if the shortstop intends to test free agency and hasn’t determined the parameters of a contract offer.”
WHAT??? Are they afraid of how much Reyes wants? I read last night about Reyes possibly getting 7 yrs, $145 million on the open market. Call the man’s agent, offer Jose 4 years (5th year optional), and get it over with. NOW!
You’re really that naive to think that Alderson hasn’t at least spoken to Jose’s agents? Please…he has an idea of what they’re thinking. He’s not going to tip his hand to some two-bit radio hacks in order to let the fans in the loop.
I’m not being naive. I’m just wondering what’s taking so long in hearing about an offer for Jose to stay put with the Mets. Why hasn’t there been word about it yet? The more we see Reyes hack by the day, the more paranoid a majority of Met fans will be. I’ve already stated in the past that I’m 95% sure Reyes will remain a Met, and I still stand by that statement. I just want a deal done ASAP.
Alderson should not let short sighted, emotionally driven fans dictate his methods. any crap that happens now will be long forgotten if we win a WS in the near future.
So now it’s short-sighted for fans not to want to see the best homegrown product in 25 years go play for another team?
You moeyballer/saber heads are so lost it’s not even funny.
Only people like this would kick a great player like Jose Reyes to the curb and want him gone. They only care about moneyball and dont want to pay players what their market value are, even their homegrown players.
What a great philosophy.
Ya Gotta Bereave!
yeah, let’s save some money..even though it’s not our own..in case we MIGHT win a World Series in the future.
Let’s do that.
Let’s do that instead of signing Reyes now, contending NOW, and contending next year
Moneyball has nothing to do with winning – OBVIOUSLY. The book is based on a penomenon of finding the best sale items at Walmart and NEVER paying market value for players even superstars.
For example Jason Giambi wins an MVP, and is left to walk at end of season. Miguel Tejada wins an MVP and leaves as free agent.
That’s what Mets will do with Jose Reyes.
And obviously you can see all the titles the A’s won using that kick your homegrown stars in the ass policy.
Or maybe they knew all along they were on steroids and kept silent? Hmmm.
At least Reyes is legit and CLEAN!
*sigh* the old stand by for when the cavemen can’t keep up with the conversation
We’re not talking about Moneyball or the Oakland A’s.
We’re talking about the Mets and their current financial predicament. Yes, there are money issues. It doesn’t matter if we aren’t paying directly. The fact is, Alderson’s payroll will be noticeably less for the foreseeable future.
But, do you really think this team is a WS contending team? Really? You think even if Reyes keeps up this torrid pace for the next 2 years, it will make up for losing Beltran? For not having any ready pitchers in our system? For having a merry-go-round at 2B? For having to rebuild the bullpen over again? For Jason Bay’s regression?
Do you really think Alderson just wants to dump Reyes? Are you completely unaware that his resources are limited?
signing Reyes will be advantageous to the Mets. But it doesn’t instantly turn them into WS contenders.
Well, someone obviously didn’t understand the book.
besides, I have said nothing about kicking Reyes to the curb. I’m merely saying Alderson has to do what is best for the team in the long run, not what makes us find something new to complain about for a season. Trying to appease fans and capture back page praise is what led us to this predicament.
If Alderson can strike a deal he feels benefits the Mets (whatever that may be) over the long haul, then, yes, sign Reyes. If he thinks the effect Reyes’ will have on ticket sales and merchandising will negate the problems that would come from a Crawford type deal (not that Reyes has said thats what he wants) then he should do it.
But what the fans are calling for today is not what should be his motivating factor.
For a team that has consistently failed to produce top talent while spending like drunken sailors on washed up dinasaures to let one of our own go at age 28 would just be the epitime of ineptitude.
A guy who fits the stadium like a glove, plays a terrific SS, never has off field issues and is looking more and more everyday like the leader of the team and who actually produces on the field unlike Schowenweiss, Castillo, Perez and Bay would be a complete disaster.
I mean if your going to reward someone else’s player to come here and stink up the joint and not reward one of your own for playing great. What are you doing in this business?
Don’t you think that the players are actually messing up “the plan”, which was probably to trade as much as possible. Between Reyes doing GREAT, Rodriguez pitching well, Beltran playing well and being the only power bat, Wright hurt and Bay being bad.
How do you know that was the plan? Do you sit in on the Mets organizational meetings? Are you Paul DePodesta? JP Ricciardi? John Ricco?
If not, it’s probably best not to comment on “the plan” considering you have no inside knowledge into what that plan is.
Sorry Senor, No to all of the above. Just a Question. I guess they have no plan. Did not mean to twist your (whatever team? you root for (Phillies, Yanks)) Knickers around. Not bashing,I’m just wondering.
No problem. I’m a die-hard Mets fan, who’s just looking for some rationality when people speak.
No problem either. Maybe I did not post it right. Like I said, MAYBE they had plans to break team down and the players are making it a little difficult fo them. If (hopefully) we keep winning, it’s harder to trade Reyes.
For over two decades “the plan” has been to see who just so happens to be a free agent every year who can tie up payroll, clog the roster, spend a lot of time on the DL or can be DFA’d
This plan has resulted in three post season appearances in 23 years, one of which was a NL East title. During the same time frame the Pittsburgh Pirates have won THREE NL Eastern Division titles despite the fact they’ve been in the NL Central for the last EIGHTEEN YEARS.
Certain people always bemoan “bad luck” as preventing us from advancing to the post season when it was really good luck that resulted in those three post season appearances.
1999 – 2000, The Reds losing 3 of their last four, Us beating Pittsburgh on a wild pitch walk off on the last day, beating Cinn in a one game playoff, having a Division rival gift wrap two of the best players in baseball and transform themselves from World Series champs to 59 game winners in one off season. That’s not a sustainable, bankable plan.
2006 – One Division rival suffering their first under .500 season and non playoff appearance in 15 years and another one furnishing us with two of our starting players. One other team not hitting .500 for good until Aug 20th, another Sept 17th, one never after May 3rd and the other one never.
That’s a whole pile of GOOD LUCK.
And really why should it even come down to luck when you have the highest payroll in the entire league every year?
Bad luck? That would be Milwaukee winning 90+ and staying home. Cinncinatti winning 96 and missing out. SF THREE times winning 90+ and missing the playoffs including one year with 103 wins. Now that’s bad luck.
Eleven losing seasons in the last 20 is bad luck? Six 90+ loss seasons in the last 20 is bad luck? Three 90+ win seasons in two decades is just bad luck? With the highest payroll?
The only luck involved is that Florida is in our division.
Face it. We have tried monkeyball until we are blue in the face and it hasn’t worked and will never work, and even if someday due to the law of averages it ever did work it would just come crashing down the next year.
Wake up.
Did I read that sentence correctly? Did the General Manager of one of the largest markets in professional sports in the United States if not the world tell the fans that they are responsible for ensuring the fiscal health of that team?
So if the Wilpon’s don’t resign Reyes it’s the fans fault? Yeah Sandy, the Wilpon’s really, really wanted to resign Reyes but those crabby, evil fans just didn’t buy enough tickets.
Vinny B:
“Atleast Omar never made a trade as bad as Milton Bradely for Andre Either, or Carlos Gonzalez and Huston Street for a half year of Matt Holiday.”
You’re right, he only sent Cliff Lee, Brandon Phillips, and Grady Sizemore to Montreal for future free agent Bartolo Colon. That’s way better right?
Last yr when I brought that trade up u defended it ( like you always do as a wilpon apologist) and said it was forced by the expos money issues. So which is it? As usual talking from both sides of your mouth
That Lee, Sizemore, Phillips deal was NOT forced on Omar by the Expos because of money. They TOOK ON salary in that deal. It was simply a case of Omar “getting his guy” no matter what. Just like the Putz deal. A 26 yr old LHP (Vargas), Endy (with Murphy playing LF), Carp (AAA emergency back up to 35 year old Delgado), Carrero and Cleto (teenage prospects), Heilman AND Smith and taking back downgrades in Reed and Green. But the worst trade he made as a Met was giving up what turned out to be the 20th and 39th picks in the 2010 amateur draft for a guy Boston was going to have to expose to the rule 5 draft in a couple of months who couldn’t even play in the field.
Now Boston has two good prospects in A+ (starting pitcher and 3B) and we have nothing, as usual.
agee – I have corrected you on this a few times yet you continue to persist posting false information.
Omar Minaya was a GM in name only, he was actually a steward of the Expos and answered directly to Bud Selig. Selig told him he had to do whatever he could to keep the team in contention because he needed to find an owner.
The Bartolo Colon trade was a great trade at the time. Colon went 20-8 that season and finished 6th in Cy Young voting.
The players Minaya gave up were:
Cliff Lee, a 4th round pick who had a 5.34 ERA in his first SIX years with the Indians.
Grady Sizemore, a 3rd round pick who didnt become a regular until four years later.
Brandon Phillips, who wouldnt become a regular player until FIVE years later.
Lee Stevens, who retired that very same season and never played again.
Omar Minaya got one of the Top 6 pitchers in the AL who won 10 games down the strecth for the Expos.
I don’t know why you keep harping on this and beating this drum?
Were the Phillies idiots for trading for Cliff Lee at the deadline and giving up four top prospects and winning the World Series?
Were the Phillies idots for trading another four propsects for Roy Halladay a year later at the trade deadline to try and repeat as champions?
That’s exaclty what Omar did. He bagged the 2002 version of Cliff Lee for prospects who were years away from contributing.
And he did it with the approval of Bud Selic who wanted him to keep the shitty Expos in contention until they got a new owner.
Guess what?
They did.
Mission accomplished. And they havent sniffed the post season ever since Minaya left.
I hope I don’t have to repeat all of this again next month.
Maniac I haven’t beat the drum or harped on the Colon deal, in fact I’ve stated that Omar has to be taken at face value on this deal that with contraction looming, he felt it was best to get something now instead of possibly getting nothing later.
I’ve never harped on this deal because as I’ve also stated none of us can really say that wasn’t a valid possibility but I am stating that that deal did increase payroll, not that it was done to shave payroll and you don’t know for a fact what Selig told Minaya anymore than I know what Minaya was thinking at the time of the deal anyway.
But since you brought it up please enlighten me as to when and where I used this trade as a criticism of Minaya.
I forgot about that lol – I was just thinking about his time with the Mets.
But I don’t get why you guys defend Beane so much…he never won anything, he did have 8 winning seasons in a row, but now it looks like this year will be the 5th year in a row without a winning season….he made two AWFUL trades(three if you count Wallace)so I have no idea what’s so great about him.
This is what Beane accomplished:8 winning seasons in a row where he had good, not great teams, they never won anything, then followed that up with 5 seasons without a winning one, and he traded two of the best hitters in the game today – So why are there METS FANS, on a METS BLOG defending this guy? I don’t get it. It makes no sense.
You have to be a REAL IDIOT to talk about the Colon trade. The Expose were on the verge of contraction, so who gives A FCUK if you trade all the kids? The team wasn’t guaranteed a future. SMH @ anyone criticizing a GM who made THE EXPOS a team battling for a playoff spot.