Wheeler Still A Work In Progress

zack wheeler

It felt so good to hand it to the Yankees on their home turf during the first two games of the Subway Series, and I’m hoping that the Mets bats continue to pummel the baseball when the action shifts to Citi Field tonight.

From all the talk on the SNY post-game show and waking up to a dozen or so different articles about last night’s win, the big concern is Zack Wheeler who has one win to show for his last seven starts.

Coming off a stellar outing against the Miami Marlins in his previous start in which he tossed six scoreless innings despite walking five batters, there was an expectation that Wheeler had turned a corner and even the baseball odds reflected that last night at sportsinteraction.com.

However, Tuesday night’s effort left a lot to be desired for the 23-year old Wheeler.

Wheeler 5.13

Win Probability Chart courtesy of FanGraphs. Detailed pitching data courtesy of Brooks Baseball.

After straining through four innings, Wheeler headed into the fifth with his pitch count already at 99 and facing the middle of the Yankees order. But a walk and two singles into the frame, Terry Collins had had enough and pulled the young righty who tossed a career-high 118 pitches.

“When we got the lead in the first inning tonight, it was 4-0, I thought,” Terry Collins said.

“This is the perfect game for this guy to really take control and say, this is going to be mine tonight. This is where the Zack Wheelers of the world step up and say, I’m as good as advertised.”

“He just didn’t have any consistent release point. No feel for where the ball was going. He struggled. But he did as good as he could do, got us as far as he could.”

Wheeler didn’t have a clean inning all night and after allowing five runs on seven hits and six walks his ERA rose to 4.53.

“It was just one of those nights I didn’t have it — that simple,” a dejected Wheeler said after the game.

“It’s an untold rule in baseball: Your team scores for you and you’re supposed to go out there and put up zeroes.”

Mama said there’d be days like this…

Wheeler is closing in on a full season worth of starts in the majors, and through 25 of them so far he has a 3.76 ERA, 1.434 WHIP, 4.4 walk rate, and 7.8 strikeout rate.

MMO

About Joe D 7840 Articles
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73, '00 and '15, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction and interact with other passionate Met fans like you. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
  • HarveyKsYou

    That line smells Edwin Jackson.. It really does:(

  • It’s possible that Mitsubishi Montero no-hits the Yanks tonight

  • Saratoga_Jon

    Wheeler reminds me of Pelfrey early on. That’s not necessarily the put own some Met fans might take it as, but just a comparison b/w the two as I see it.

    Wheels throws hard, has unpolished offspeed stuff and (for now) no out pitch. Too many pitches miss the zone or are nicked and fouled off running his pitch counts high early on.

  • jason bay

    Wheeler has got to pitch up and in.

    If he does that he can be successful although command will help a ton as well.

  • Taskmaster4450

    A “work in progress” might be a bit of an understatement.

    He has major control issues which need to be resolved before he can even hope to dominate at this level.

  • Taskmaster4450

    It is always nice to get a win even though your SP was bombed out of the park.

    That is two nights in a row the SP sucked but the Mets still managed to win.

  • Wolfmicky21

    “Through 25 [starts] so far he has a 3.76 ERA”
    I think that’s fine for a young pitcher. Yes, last night was brutal, but wheeler can perform at this level. Dominate consistently? Tbd..

  • SinHalo27

    He was throwing real hard last night- good life on the fastball but wild. Whether it was excitement or nerves he had lively stuff last night. With that- as GKR went on- Wheeler needs to get the secondaries over. He looked like he was getting a feel for the curve around the 3rd inning maybe but lost it and couldn’t get through 5. Definitely a work in progress but it’s still exciting seeing what we have develop. LGM!

  • Hodges14

    Things are different outside of Citi Field. The hitting performs more toward the norm and the pitching performs more toward the norm.

  • Hodges14

    I think most of his control issues come from his delivery. He has a lot of moving parts and it seems very difficult for him to repeat his motion/arm angle/delivery point.

  • It’s obviously much too early to give up on the kid but I argued pretty adamantly at the beginning of the season that he’d come around and, while I still think he probably will, my confidence is not as high as it was prior to the season. Much too early to give up but not too early to have some concerns.

  • Pat

    He’s good but not great. Over-hyped as a prospect. Smart move would be to trade him while is value is high, get a bat, then re-sign Gee. With Montero, Mejia, and DeGrom already here and Harvey, Thor, and Hefner all coming into play for 2015, something’s got to give.

  • BCleveland3381

    I wonder if Wheeler needs to take off a little off his fastball. Instead of throwing 96, throw 94. Controllable 94 is better than throwing as hard as you can with no clue where it’s going.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    Mejia pitched better against Philadelphia, against a better lineup, than Wheeler did against the Yankees…

    but who gets to be a middle reliever?

  • Hodges14

    With the way things are going with the Mets, Mejia will be the closer within a week. Then 2 weeks from now, he’ll be back in the starting rotation.

  • Matlack

    Wheeler needs to improve his changeup. Nobody’s fooled by it, and guys are sitting fastball on nights he can’t get the breaking stuff over, which is likely why he can’t put guys away. Start to start production will probably be saw-toothed until then, which we can live with from a back-end starter, for now. Where’s Bobby O? Let him do a little side consulting work with the kid on his change.

  • BCleveland3381

    Trade him for what bat? I said the same thing last night to someone else. People always want to trade the guy that’s struggling, when their value is low. Notice how the “trade Gee or Niese” people have all disappeared??

  • Hodges14

    I’m all for trading Niese now while his value is at it’s peak… before he goes back on the DL.

  • Hodges14

    Wheeler needs to quiet down his motion. He’s all over the place and it’s nearly impossible for him to repeat his arm angle/release point from pitch to pitch.

  • That would be the last thing the Mets should do. His value is high because he is the best pitcher we have, the most consistent, and the only sure thing we have. Why trade that?

  • Pat

    To Arizona for one of their shortstops. Maybe the Pirates who have a few nice young outfielders? He’s a former top-15 prospect who’s young so teams are going to take a serious look at him. Take from a surplus (RHP) and address a deficit.

  • BCleveland3381

    I think Wheeler’s struggles have to do completely with his control. Mejia’s issue is fading. Different issues. Mejia’s issue makes him more suited for the ‘pen. Wheeler needs to get his command under control or he’s not going to be effective in the rotation or the ‘pen.

  • Hodges14

    2 reasons. First, starting pitching is where they have the surplus needed to fill other holes on the roster. Second, Niese is a ticking time bomb. It’s not a matter of IF but WHEN he will make his next trip to the DL and in doing so drop his trade value.

  • Pat

    I’d hold onto Niese until Matz is ready, which may be a year or two. He’s cheap and can be dominant at times. True, he gets hurt, but nowadays all the cool kids get TJ so it’s to be expected for a pitcher to miss time.

  • ParisWilponCOO

    It’s certainly AL baseball- DH, lots of HR. Kind of like arena football- sometimes entertaining, not a serious sport.

  • skiplockweird

    not in Denver, we sucked there. Maybe the hitting is just coming around.

  • Hodges14

    Niese has had issues in his shoulder … those types of injuries are much worse than TJ in terms of comebacks.

  • One thing Ron Darling harps on during every Wheeler start and again last night is that Wheeler never developed an “out” pitch and still doesn’t have a way to put batters away.

  • skiplockweird

    He was bad last night, but the home plate ump stunk. Tons of pitches at the knees not called

  • BCleveland3381

    “issues in his shoulder” is worse than TJ surgery? You do know how silly that sounds right?

  • Biggle Boy

    Last night, Wheeler reminded me a little of Pelfrey on all those days when Pelf’s fastball kept tailing off the plate and he couldn’t throw a breaking pitch for a strike. Time will tell but we’ll see if last night becomes more the exception than the rule.

  • derek murphy

    He has to repeat his delivery. Until he can do that he has no chance at sustained success. Hopefully they are putting an emphasis on that cause it puts more stress on the arm. Like him or not that’s one thing Rick Peterson was real good at. He was one of the first guys to make everything automated and I think as far as mechanics go he was one of the top pitching coaches. What hurt him was lack of general knowledge like when one of his guys was tipping pitches. He also had trouble teAching pitches and basicly everything that wasnt mechanical. Hopefully they have someone strong in that field and can help him lock it down.

    This is what gets me it always seems as if our players are coached better at every level than on the mets. Wheeler has always had problems with his mechanics but last year he was much more consistant. The teams best coaches should be on the major league level and with the mets thats not the case. Dan Warthen should be able to get more out of him than coaches on lower levels.

  • ParisWilponCOO

    I’ll grab the opportunity to pay TC a rare compliment, before that-guy-who-loves-to-defend-terry gets in here… I thought he gave Wheeler enough chances to get it right, but did not leave him in too long, to hurt his arm or his pride. Well done (for once) TC.

  • Pat

    He is injury prone, but he’s our only lefty and a good one to boot. It’s hard to trade your only LHP when you have so many RHP to trade that would get similar returns.

  • Hodges14

    Look he avoided surgery on his shoulder last year but they are obviously still concerned by it, judging by his trips to NY this spring for MRIs. If it gets to the point where surgery is required the chances of coming back from shoulder surgery are lower than coming back from TJ surgery.

  • skiplockweird

    Has anyone heard who is being let go for Montero? My money is on Farnsworth. Valverde has been bad, but I think he is respected by the team and some of these kids can learn from him (like Hawkins).

  • Hodges14

    There’s nothing wrong with having 5 righties in the rotation if they are your 5 best starters. Having a lefty in the bullpen who can get lefties out at critical times late in the game would seem more important.

  • BCleveland3381

    What if it doesn’t get to that point?
    And lets say that his shoulder is a major concern, you don’t think teams trading for him will know that and will adjust their offer accordingly?

  • So trade the unknown surplus not the sure thing.

  • Hodges14

    I don’t consider Niese a sure thing. He’s been around for quite a while now. He’s not a consistent winner, he doesn’t eat innings, he goes on the DL every year. He’s a tough guy to depend on.

  • Hotstreak

    Remember Inverted W: Here we go John Smoltz had it too. Virtually everyone else had TJ surgery.

  • Agee’s Catch

    If you want to see a consistently repeated delivery, watch Montero. ***King Smooth.

  • Hotstreak

    More possible he gets no hits as a batter at the plate.

  • ParisWilponCOO

    Just started reading the previous thread, where people were saying he left him in too long. How much are we going to baby pitchers? It’s clearly not helping, the number of TJ surgeries is skyrocketing.

  • Agee’s Catch

    ***King Smooth tonight!!!!!

  • BCleveland3381

    Who else are you depending on in this rotation?

  • Each of those MRIs proved he was structurally sound and the Mets slowed him down in the spring for precautionary reasons.

  • Hodges14

    You have to weigh the risk. If he does have further issues with his shoulder his value on the trade market drops. All we’ve heard over the last 4 years is that starting pitching is where they have the surplus. We all know they have multiple other holes on the roster. Someone has to go to get talent back to fill those other holes.

  • Pat

    We have a surplus of Right handed starters, not lefties

  • Agee’s Catch

    I’d keep the better arm. And more than likely both could be gone when Germen returns.

  • Hodges14

    Well, Gee for one. I’d say he has surpassed Niese in terms of value to the team with his performance last year and this year. If 1/2 of the hype we’ve heard is true then Syndergaard, Montero, Wheeler and Harvey should be more than enough to fill out the rotation. Then you still have Mejia and at some point Matz.

  • Hodges14

    That’s a very minor issue. You can win with 5 righty starters.

  • BCleveland3381

    Seems very Pelfrey-ish. Guy that throws 95+ but can’t strike anyone out. It does seem that Wheeler’s confidence isn’t as shaky as Pelfrey’s always was.

  • Pat

    Yes, but when the sole lefty is your #2 starter with a pretty large gap from #3, you have to believe that he has more value on the team then in a trade.

  • Hodges14

    How do we know that without knowing who would come back in a trade? There are some pretty glaring holes on this roster starting with SS. If I can get an everyday starting SS for Niese… I’m giving it serious consideration.

  • E1Guapo

    Maybe he needs a pair of Rick Vaughn’s glasses. Don’t use Farnsworth’s glasses!

  • BCleveland3381

    You could maybe make the argument Gee is more valuable. You could also make the argument Niese is a better pitcher and more valuable pretty easily as well. Lets not forget Gee is actually a year older than Niese. Niese’s contract, which is guaranteed for 2 more years and then has 2 team option years is more team friendly than Gee’s 2 arbitration years remaining. If Gee pitches well, the money should be pretty similar to Niese’s deal the next 2 years.

    If you want to move Niese, Im not against it. But the return better be really good. Im not taking Didi Gregorius for Niese, that would be an awful deal for us. We’d need a legit offensive upgrade somewhere on the field for Niese, and Im not sure where that player is…

  • derek murphy

    The mets could put together a great coaching staff. They can have Backman be the manager, Luis natera hitting coach and frank viola the pitching coach. This could happen one of these days. SA and Backman I’ve often thought could never work together because Backman is so headstrong. However, the more I think about it the more I think we may be headed in that direction.

    This off season SA promoted viola and put him on his staff even though it was probably better for us if he was working with the younger guys. He promoted natera to the mets as a hitting coach. How long will natera be under Hudgens? Not long he is a better coach and teams are going to come knocking. SA has kept this group together while elevating which says something to me. Viola is out with the heart and natera up with the mets working with the Latin players. There is no way he hires backman until most of the holes are filled but after that we could have my dream team.

  • Waz0787

    Wheeler reminds me of Pelfrey.. Except Big guy was cooler. The licking fingers were fun to watch. Wheeler is not even cool like that.

  • Waz0787

    Jeffrey own the team..

  • beers22

    So I’ll put the over/under at 50 comparisons to Pelfrey in this thread.

  • Hodges14

    I’m talking an everyday starting SS for Niese. I think they should be able to make that happen.

  • Pat

    We would get a big haul, don’t get me wrong. We could have gotten the same deal from the Blue Jays for Niese as we did with Dickey. However, when you have a surplus of RHP and can get a similar return on it, you trade from the surplus.

  • Walks will determine if Wheeler is a top level guy or a back of the rotation guy. The good news is that we have options either way. He’s a work in progress, yes. But we’re also not as dependent on him being an ace as we were say a year or two ago.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Im still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that

    -Wheeler struggles and its because, “He is a work in progress”

    -Mejia looks WAY BETTER but struggles and its because, “He isnt starter material”

    They are both roughly the same age….so could it be because WildWheelz is a Sandy acquisition and Sandy will give him as much rope as possible. Dont want to make it seem like you got rolled in the Beltran deal, eh.

    It does seem like players whom are drafted are more valuable to teams than prospects whom are signed internationally(not including major league intl signings)…

    And NO I’m NOT talking about the race or nationality.
    (Had to put this in bold to further deter the race baiters)

    It seems like draft picks have more people backing them ie scouts whom believe and will pound the table for them due to meeting and scouting them for so long. That relationship,idk Im just trying to figure out how Mejia is thrown aside so easily and Wheeler is treated like a China doll

  • Taskmaster4450

    Mejia has value to the major league team in the BP.

    If Wheeler fails, he is headed to AAA.

  • BCleveland3381

    Why would anyone give up an everyday SS for starter that’s “not a consistent winner, doesn’t eat innings, and goes on the DL every year”?

    You can’t talk about how bad Niese is and then say we should be able to get an everyday SS for him.

  • Hodges14

    Why would they give it up for an unknown minor league pitcher? Someone has to go. There are teams that seem to be desperate for pitching.

  • E1Guapo

    Let’s just be happy that we have a surplus of starter-quality pitchers. Mejia’s move to the bullpen may only be temporary, especially if the injury bug bites or the Mets fade and pitchers are dealt at the deadline.

  • NewYorkMammoths

    Yes. The difference in their decision-making regarding Mejia and Wheeler could very well be explained by the importance to Sandy of believing/proving that he made the right choice when trading Beltran.

  • AJ NISBETT

    The reason mejia is in the pen is bc he puts so much energy in all his pitches he would never reach200 inning bc of injury

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Mejia has never had success out the pen.

    And the biggest thing is not that Mejia donesnt want to pitch out of the pen because he wants to be a starter no matter what.

    Ignorant Mets fans dont realize that the real reason Mejia doesnt want to pitch out of the pen is because he says he think the reason he got injured and has been injured so much lately wa due to pitching out of the bullpen.

    And who knows a persons body better than ones self? No one

  • BCleveland3381

    We’re just as desperate for offense as any team is for pitching.

  • Pat

    Wheeler having his pedigree as a first round pick, top 15 overall prospect and traded for an all-star will make teams more likely to bite on him and feel confident that they can “fix” his control problems, which he’s had since he was drafted out of high school

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    What if the injury bug bites Mejia, due to the pen?

    Are you aware the reason he didnt want to pitch out of the pen was he believes that the pen was the cause for his injury history….

  • Hodges14

    Sounds like a good match for a trade then.

  • BCleveland3381

    As I said below, the two of them are having different issues. Mejia’s stuff is better than Wheeler, but he fades. Early in games, he dominates. Wheeler’s biggest issue is consistently throwing strikes. Mejia’s problem can still mean he’s a dominant reliever/closer. Wheeler’s problem doesn’t translate to the ‘pen.

    Our bullpen needs help, we have starters on their way up and Mejia can help the bullpen. Im not sure Wheeler would.

  • Chris Nastu

    I’m gonna have patience with the kid. Those are pretty good numbers over 25 starts. The Harveys of the world are very rare. Niese and Gee have been good enough that he’s been able to fly under the radar as a 4th starter

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Thats the feeling I get with Wheeler as well as Travis d’Arnaud.

    And it is hurting the team….Its true what they say about Alderson, he seems as if he wants to win EVERY trade.

    And when I say win Im not saying get a good player. Im saying he wants every trade he makes to seem as if he totally ripped off the other guy….Basically being smarter than the other guy, so far that hasnt been the case

  • Hodges14

    traded for an all-star

    Come on… he was a single A pitcher at that point, traded for an allstar that the Mets could no longer afford to keep financially. Far from a sure thing.

  • Captain America

    There is only one race guys.

    The human race.

  • derek murphy

    Natera just working with the Latin players is such a waste of talent. Hopefully he can start working with everyone. The 2 guys if like to see him with most is TDA & Grandy. These guys have no consistancy in there at bats. What he did with Puello and Lageres was amazing. Lageres even when he is not hitting he’s putting good swings on the ball.

    Hudgens worked with Lageres on drawing walks in the Dominican after the season. He was drawing more walks over there I thought that and learning to steal would make Lageres a potential leadoff monster. When he worked with Jose on it jose was much better for it. While I always trash Hudgens he does have some things he brings to the table. Natera is a better hitting coach though and bringing him into wk for Hudgens wasn’t smart. Maybe if they were both equals than natera could have been given the lead and Hudgens just work with guys struggling with OBP and pitch selection. They both bring qualities to the table natera can help hitters a lot more. He would be the guy customizing swings and stances working on timing. Basicly doing the heavy lifting.

  • Hodges14

    Pennant race. That’s what should be important in this blog.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    How do you know he cant ever reach 200innings if he was never even given a shot to reach it?

    Are you aware that Wheelers velocity drastically decreases his 3rd time through the lineup???

    Mejias velocity remains the same, his late inning struggles have more to do with him switching up his gameplan…another reason having an experienced vet catcher[which we dont have, thanks to Sandy] wouldve helped immensely.

    Its called development. Developing prospects

  • BCleveland3381

    With who? LOL. You keep saying it’s a match, but I don’t see a team to trade with? The D-Backs want a pitcher AND a catching prospect for Owings. Who are we getting for Niese alone?

  • Captain America

    Like it

  • Hodges14

    That wouldn’t seem to matter to a team that has Jon Niese in their rotation.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Mejia doesnt fade…They just figure him out after the 3rd go round something that can be FIXED…Its easy to change how you pitch to guys the 3rd time round.

    Wheeler fades his VELO decreases dramatically the 3rd time through. Darling says it all the time….as a matter of fact opposing broadcasters say it all the time and if they know the players for those teams know.

  • Rocky Thompson

    IMO both Wheeler and Mejia are “works in progress”. And I do think that Mejia has the potential to be a starter. But my question to you is who do you think would be most effective (Mejia, Wheeler or even Montero who is replacing Mejia in the rotation) out of the bullpen in 2014??? Hands down I think it is Mejia.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Is that true? That they have Natera only working with the Latin players?

    Hudgens is horrible but he isnt going anywhere until Sandy is fired because the hitting philosophy is both of their babies.

  • BCleveland3381

    Ok, that’s fair. But who would help our horrible bullpen more right now? Mejia or Wheeler?

  • Hodges14

    Why does it have to be a 1 for 1 trade?

  • RyanF55

    Have to have patience in his first full season. Many great pitchers struggled out of the gate. I think his stuff is there, the location and execution has been the issue. It’s stuff that can be worked on, improved and ultimately fixed. He’ll improve with experience.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    What about your boy Bartolo Colon lol 😉

    Chris B.Young(signing) >>> Bartolo Colon(signing)

    Hehehe

  • jason bay

    Very well said and I agree completely.
    It’s almost like one coach is about theory and the other about practical application.

    Personally I think getting the hitters to NOT think so much in the batters box is where Natero can do the most good.

  • Biggle Boy

    Wheeler was throwing 95mph fastballs after 100 pitches last night. But his control was totally off.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    Mejia is working his way back into shape. what they are doing now is taking a guy who has been on 4 days rest for the past 4 years, after having 2 surgeries, and on the fly making him change his rest regimen up completely…

    if they use him as a long reliever every 5 days, MAYBE I can see some SHORT term value here…

    Long term it is still a bad move.

  • Peter S

    AJ Burnett has been struggling so far this year. I am truly disappointed in his start to the season and I’m not sure how he takes it to another level. At the same time, I won’t give up on AJ. I hope it just takes him longer to turn it around. As of right now, AJ is our #5 starter and I can live with AJ being just that for now. I want to lower my expectations going forward so that I can be more patient. So starting today, AJ is no longer an “ace” he is just a guy we hope can make it. Lower the bar.

  • Bill_R_whatshooF

    Always nice to win 2 in the Bronx, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that Collins is clueless. First game, waited way too long to have someone warming up for Farnsworth and got lucky Tex couldn’t run + Duda making the play of his life, or else Collins costs us that game.

    Last night, Wheeler CLEARLY didn’t have it, was at 99 pitches, and Dice-K was warm. Wheeler had sat for about a half hour during the top 5th, NO reason to trot him back out there at that point and run his pitch count up to a career high- he didn’t deserve the chance for a W anyway.

    Meanwhile, Wally’s 51’s keep winning as more weapons are taken from his squad. Rallied in Bot 9th yesterday to improve to 28-11, a WIN% of .718. Next best win% in the entire PCL: .556

    #FREEWALLY

    DFA Terry

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Most successful I would think Wheeler would be…because he throws the hardest.

    He has far better stuff coming out of the pen than Mejia and Montero…You want someone who can blow guys away…Wheeler has that stuff Montero and Mejia have good stuff but not as hard a thrower as Wheelz.

    That and the fact that Wheeler can give it his all for 1inning. He’d be tough to hit…..BUT I would not put any of them in the bullpen. If I was handling the situation Montero would be called up and pitch out of the pen while Mejia and Wheeler remained in the rotation. And theyd have to play themselves out of the position after receiving a fair amount of time.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    that makes no sense.

    going to the pen, mid-season, may increase his risk to injury…

    for the record, i would not advocate wheeler being moved to closer right now…

    I think if u are going to move someone from starter to reliever, u have to keep him on the same rest schedule, than gradually make it shorter…

  • derek murphy

    Mejias starts almost seemed like sabotage. The cutter he has good control of and it has great movement. This should be a pitch that was used early and often. That is his best pitch by far and many people have said it looks like riveras. All season I’ve complained at the lack of use. Watching his last game and hearing them say he didn’t have an out pitch I almost fell off my chair. Then I realized he just wasnt throwing it. Watching him throw curve after curve and change up after change up I couldn’t help but feel someone didNt want him to be in the rotation. Deep down I wanted him to waive off the catcher and throw a ton of cutters. Put his best foot forward and see what happened. Last season he threw it early and often cause they needed him in the rotation.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Thats the problem you dont screw up a players development to fill a need.

    You cant rob peter to pay paul.

    Sandy needs to figure that out without screwing with Wheeler or Mejias development. All these freaking arms we’re told we have on the farm. You bring them up and try them in the pen.

    And if over time Mejia or Wheeler arent getting it done you make the switch but you have to give them a fair amount of time.

  • Dark HelMet

    I’m a trade Gee AND Niese guy still. Sup?

  • RyanF55

    Um, what?

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    PATIENCE?!?!

    JENRRY MEJIA

  • jason bay

    The international amateur signings have always gotten traded here from Endy to Escobar, Cruz, Dotel, Mota, Guera, Mota, Eziuquel Carrero, Cleto and Reyes who was offered up in the Alomar deal.

    That being said GM’s in every sport do tend to believe in guys they drafted or traded more so than guys they inherited but “getting rolled” in the Beltran deal isn’t the issue. Beltran wasn’t re-signing here after the way ownership disrespected him so it was a case of getting something or getting nothing.

    Wheeler does have a LOT of potential and should be afforded every opportunity and Mejia has long been thought of as a potential star reliever going all the way back to 2010.

    As for Alderson he has reserved spots on the 40 for Mejia, Familia, Puello, Flores, German, Robles long before they could help out on the parent club and stuck with Tejada longer than many felt wise.

    Under Alderson everyone has gotten their fair chance. Now Montero does as well.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    He’s referring to AJ Wheeler aka Zack Burnett

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    WALLY BACKMANS JOCKSTRAP > TERRY COLLINS

  • E1Guapo

    Well minus Zack not being crazier than a s#*t house rat.

  • derek murphy

    Mejia was great last year as a starter why would you think he couldn’t do that. His bread and butter is his cutter TC knows this yet he had him throwing a million curve balls and change ups cutters not so much. His cutter has so much movement it dont matter if you know it’s coming. His cutter has often been compared to riveras. Rivera rarely threw anything else and was successful. The mets had an agenda for mejia and that’s why he’s in the pen.

    Provided they wanted him in the rotation they would have worked off the cutter just like last year. When the game is underway and you see the guy don’t have command of his secondary stuff and you still continue to throw and not focus on his bread and butter it’s sabotage. The mets say they still want him to be a starter and the driving force behind this was the fact he only threw 52 innings last year. That’s BS they had all kinds of closer problems and have a guy who looks like Rivera in rotation time for sabotage.

  • EzRider

    Wheeler’s velocity wouldn’t drop so much if he learned to pitch. He try’s to blow everything by folks in the early innings instead of establishing his command and control. He needs to learn to save the gas and use it later in the game. I’m reluctant to compare them but this is the kind of stretch that Verlander went through early in his career. Verlander has a bigger frame but Wheeler could learn alot from that mode of pitching. Command and control early. 92-93 in, out, up and down with the occasional curve and slider then start to ramp it up during the later innings.

    And mind you i’m not much of a Wheeler (or d’Arnaud lover) for that matter. I would have traded them both early on for Owings, a low level prospect and some BP arms.

    As far as Mejia is concerned, i personally have never viewed him as a starter. He has a great fastball with natural cutting action and a very good slurvy slider. His other offerings are not as refined and he is a max effort injury in waiting. Letting him ramp it up for 1 inning as a closer is the best use of those talents. Plus the kids got swagger.

    A note about Familia. He is gifted with plus stuff but lacks the mental fortitude to make it as a big time reliever. He’ll have flashes of greatness like Lindstrom did but will mostly bounce around because he has a plus fastball. It’s time to trade him before he is totally exposed or send in him down to continue to work on his control. I’d like Black and Kolarek come up to help shore up this pen and take some pressure off Rice as the only lefty.

    Mejia(CP)/DeGrom(SU)/Kolarek(LH)/Rice(LH)/Black/Torres/Dice-K/Familia and then send down Familia when German comes back. I’d always try to start DeGrom and Mejia in clean innings with Black and Rice coming in for those big outs. Same for German and Kolarek.

  • Andrew Herbst

    I’m going to try to be patient with Wheeler. He’s a young pitcher who is going through growing pains.

  • EzRider

    I’m kinda sorta reluctant to agree with you on this but my more rational side tells me you are correct. Not so much in the Mejia decision, i believe that was made based on scouting and conversations but definitely on the d’Arnaud/Wheeler front.

  • derek murphy

    The reason they sabotaged mejias starts is cause they want him to be the closer. They should have been men and went to him and said its in our best intrest to have you in the pen this year. They just put him in the rotation to appease the fans. Him as the 5th starter was never the best idea. He was going to have a low innings limit cause he only pitched 52 innings last year. So deep down this was the plan.

  • beers22

    I didn’t have a problem with him trying not to go to the pen too early in that stadium. I’m sure he was hoping he could get one more inning out of Wheeler. They were lucky to get basically 4 innings of Dice-K, which they probably didn’t expect, but certainly needed. If he had known Wheeler was only going to get the 1 out, sure you bring in Dice-K, but he was probably hoping to having Dice-k for at least the 6th and 7th, not 5th-8th, unless needed. I get that Dice-K’s the long reliever, but if he comes in too early and labors or is ineffective they would have been screwed with that pen and that stadium. Sometimes you have to read the flow of the game as much the pitcher. If Dice-K had to come out in the seventh, who do you have pitching the 8th? Most likely would have been Valverde. You trust him not to give up at least 3 runs in that situation last night?

  • jason bay

    Yeah it’s not a velocity deal it’s about repeating his release point time in and time out.

    If he does that he’ll hit his spots and keep his count down. The same thing can be said about many pitchers but in Wheeler’s case it is worth sticking with him.

    As for Mejia I prefer to have his 6 innings every 5 days spread out over 3 games with the occasional spot start

  • EzRider

    It was a nice dose of tuff love. “Hey kid, sack it up and get this done. Your damn team is out there fighting and you need to get it together and prove you belong.”

  • jason bay

    Mejia wants to be a starter like most pitchers. It has nothing to do with injuries.

  • BCleveland3381

    Are you ok with them doing this with DeGrom? He’s done nothing but start in every minor league appearance in his career. I think all players need to play where the team needs them. I get that Mejia’s coming off of injury, but whether they can do it over the course of a full season or not, they are trying to win games now.

    If Mejia can’t help them do that, he should be in AAA. Wheeler should be in the same boat. At some point, you either need to choose to win games or develop players. You can’t always do both. Right now, our rotation is Niese, Gee, and then who knows. That has to change if this team has any chance to get and stay above .500. When the team is out of it you can commit to developing young guys.

  • beers22

    AAAAAAANNNNDDDDDDDD…………I’m out. I’m going to take a little break from the internet for a minute. You probably should too.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Familia lacks mental fortitude to be a closer? Where did you get that from? lol…He has never been put in that position and if you knew anything about Familia youd know he has the mentality to close he is a bulldog he loves to go after guys he just needs to be refined, He needs to throw strikes early and he’ll be a stud. As long as he can locate his FB

    People said the same about Parnell when he 1st came up. Now its a totally different story…

    Mets fans jump to conclusions about players based on their last outings aka the “What have you done for me lately” mentality.

    ST every Mets fan was going to go crazy if the Mets didnt make Mejia the 5starter because he was lights out, He has a couple rough late outings and the same ones are saying he isnt good enough to start lol….

    Prospects NEED time and PATIENCE to DEVELOP!

    Chris Archer is in Tampa right now struggling his a** off far worst than Mejia and they arent screaming for him to be tossed in the bullpen. They are saying we have to get Archer right and figure out whats wrong. Mets never tried to correct Mejias issues they just blame it on him not being able to pitch past 5innings. Which is ridiculous because his Velo is the same so he is NOT laboring. Its pitch selection.

    And youre being so unrealistic…send down Familia who has pitched well for us for unproven players in Black, Kolarek??? Thats typical Mets fan knee jerk reactions

  • Just_Da_damaja

    yup…

    although i think mejia as a 4th or 5th starter would be beast…

    have him throw 4-5 IP, have a Degrom or Montero throw 4-5 IP every 5 days..

  • Peter S

    Clearly that went way over your head

  • Peter S

    Maybe I should have spelt it out better

  • derek murphy

    Yes that’s mostly true he works with the Latin players with the exception of Abreu who has a relationship from winter ball. That was brought up but they tried to put a different spin on it. They said he’s not limited to the Latin players he is a bridge in communication to those players. They say he will assist Hudgens in preparing all batters in the later stages of the games. That I believe was only said to put a nice spin on it.

  • Saratoga_Jon

    YES!

    Wheeler’s presence seems different than Pelfs, but it’s almost as if he doesn’t know what to do with 2 strikes.

  • RyanF55

    Haha good point, but Mejia projects much better in the BP than wheeler ever would and fulfills a need. Mejia is a fiery guy with put away stuff. Wheeler can locate the plate…him coming out of the pen could be a nightmare.

  • RyanF55

    I just don’t see how Burnett has much to do with Wheeler

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Yeah I’ll take your word over Mejias because you would know best(extreme sarcasm)….

  • Arjun Vidudala

    “A lot has to do with the ballpark,’’ Collins said of the Yankee Stadium
    hit parade. “I’ve changed a few of things we’ve been trying to do only
    to get them to be somewhat more aggressive. In deep counts we’ve been
    kind of turning them loose a little bit. For sure we’ve swung the bats
    much better here.’’ ROFTLOL typical TC trying to take credit again smh

  • Devan Cleary

    Lord Sandy will give his prodigy as much time as needed. Absolutely unacceptable game by Wheeler I would have made him throw 150 if that what it took to get through 5 innings. Should have dealt him for Justin Upton

  • Rocky Thompson

    Never said that Mehia cannot be successs as a starting pitcher. I just asked which prospect Leroy thought would be mst successful as a reliever. He thinks it is Wheeler. I think it is probably Mejia. Another consideration is that as a reliever Mejia will be able to pitch the entire year. If he remained a starter, he would have been shut down in July due to his 125 innings limit.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    LMFAO….Hehehe

    what a spin master…If that were is case why doesnt he turn them loose when playing in Citi Field??? At the very least in Citi those homers are doubles. And doubles are better than walks anyday

  • JasonBoy

    Mejia would’ve hit his innings limits sometime after the all star break, it’s much better to spread out his innings in a relief role and stretch him out. Personally, I see him as a starter however it also doesn’t make sense to have him just sitting from the end of July on. I’d love for them to give him a few spot starts down the stretch though. In terms of Wheeler, I think he needs to be sent to AAA to work out his command issues, place Degrom in the rotation.

  • Monix

    Yea it’s all a conspiracy to keep the Hispanic guy down.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    EXACTLY!!!!

    JUSTIN UPTON SHOULDVE BEEN A MET….We shouldve trade Wheeler to te D’backs when we had the chance

  • Monix

    Why would anyone in their right mind keep Valverde over Farnsworth? Have you even watched the games?

  • oleosmirf

    Wheeler still has a better career ERA than Niese, Gee, Colon (or Mejia) despite only making his debut less than a year ago.

    Sometimes people need to just step back and look at the big picture instead of focusing solely on recent memory.

  • Joey D.

    Perhaps the problem with Zach is not with Zach at all but with the media and the fan base whom since the very first day the trade was made were already congratulating Sandy Alderson on a great deal, in many cases talking in terms of how he stole a top prospect for a rental, and were already penciling Zach in as a solid member of our rotation for years to come.

    So there was so much immediate expected of Zach and those of us who were looking not at his stats and numbers but at the scouting assessments regarding his control, predictability and getting away with things in the minors that he would not be able to do in the majors – and showing no progress in that manner as he was climbing up the ladder – were being called out by many as anti-Sandy, which was not the case. We were being realistic in our expectations.
    If this was the performance of a highly regarded prospect coming out of our own organization and not obtained by Sandy, my hunch is that there would be less talk about how many other “great” pitchers started out slowly. That is the onus that has been placed on Zach’s shoulders unfairly. Too many went overboard pre-maturely predicting greatness for him from day one as if it was a forgone conclusion.

    That is mostly the fault of the Mets hyping him so much to distract fans from other issues. I mean, when did one ever see an organization have champagne brought to the field to toast a rookie after winning his first game? That was not for Zach as it was a stunt for the television cameras to catch and for the fans to see. And I do have my concerns that stunts like that are not helping Zach deal with the pressure of having to justify the tremendous amount of hype that the Mets have placed on both him and Travis.

    Both these youngsters might very well turn out to have long and good careers and hopefully with the Mets but nobody has a crystal ball. If fans started talking in terms of potential and hopefully what they could be instead of writing in stone that they were going to lead us to the promised land because their success was a given – and I think that is tied into not so much backing the Mets “rebuilding” program as it is trying to sing the praises of a general manager whom based on his trades and free agent acquisitions does not have a good record at all.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Mejia didnt get a fair chance…Tejada only got a shot because there was NO ONE ELSE lol…He played Quintanilla all year last season and failed to sign his prized offseason possession Peralta.

    And of course hed put those guys on the 40 because if he didnt he’d lose them for nothing in return. FYI Mejia was on the 40 before Sandy got here.

  • EzRider

    I never said he couldn’t be a closer. I said “BIG TIME RELIEVER” and i’ll stick by that until i see him actually consistantly getting big time outs. If he is on the Parnell track then so be it. Time will tell.

    I was never on the Mejia 5th starter track and always thought of Mejia as a reliever in training.

    You can jump to conclusions all you want about my opinions, IDC.

    I’ll combine my final two thoughts about Mejia and Archer. Mejia has been in this organization since 2007 and has never started more than 19 games and pitched 94 innings that year. He has been used in relief or split starter for almost all of his career. Maybe it’s a role he is more cut out for. Archer has been almost exclusively been a starter for his whole career and pitched over 120 innings 3 times and over 110 twice with 159 games started compared to Mejia’s 74. Based on this it seems that one organization views one as a reliever and three organizations viewed the other as a starter.

    As far as unproven’s. Black is pitching lights out right now and deserves the chance to pitch in this pen. If Familia can go down to get his head right then by all means bring him back if Black fails. Kolarek is one of the better LH options we have and we need another KH in this pen. Scott Rice will fade and get injured again if he is the only one we have. Familia with 18 innings and 10 walks is not good. Eventually those will lead to even more runs to add to his 3.44 era. He has been pitching better as of late so i’m not overly quick to kick him out when German comes back but…

  • Bobby O

    In about 6 weeks, if Flores doesn’t pan out at SS, when Noah might be ready to be promoted, do you consider trading Zack for the Tribe’s SS prospect Francisco Lindor?

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    I cant speak for last nights game because I didnt watch it but Wheeler only pitched 4.1 innings.

    With that said Ive seen every other game he has pitched and his velo has always took a big dip later in the game. And it is always pointed out

  • TPT

    i agree……..RELAX people

  • dealingwithidiots

    The information received by the media and the fans was driven by the best scouts in the business.

    Perhaps part of it is, that because of deep hatred for SA, people cannot think clearly and realize not everyone is a Jose Fernandez or Doc Gooden that comes out of the gate a Cy Young candidate.

  • Monix

    Talk about hypocrisy. That’s hilarious. The guy who is whining because Mejia is in the pen over Wheeler the night after Wheeler has a bad game is talking about the fans who jump to conclusions and the “what have you done for me lately mentality.”

    Archer has a 5.16 ERA by the way. He’s arguably only in the rotation right now b/c everyone else not named Price is hurt.

  • Captain America

    I agree

  • Monix

    Mejia dominates early and struggles late = bullpen success
    Wheeler struggled right out of the gate last night.
    Maybe you should watch a replay of last night’s game since you missed it, rather than embarrassing yourself on here with asinine arguments.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    You can always do both thats how players and teams grow and improve. Mejia has proven he can dominate as a starter why are you so quick to move him out of that spot when he hits a rough patch?

    I dont have a problem with DeGrom or Montero pitching out of the pen now…I think they shouldve had at least a couple games in relief in the minors 1st as a warmup so to speak but I wont quibble. They are 2 savvy guys they can figure it out.

  • Bobby O

    I concur.

  • BCleveland3381

    I would make that deal now. But no chance the Indians do. They have Cabrera for the year. They probably look to trade Cabrera at the deadline and then plug Lindor in. He’s going to be their future SS.

  • TPT

    yea right and the first time Mejia leaves a game after 5 innings giving up 1 run on 2 hits and 6 ks and Montero follows up with 3 runs and 5 hits in 4 innings and we lose you all will be calling for TCs head to be strung up on the center field flag pole.

  • jason bay

    Well considering that you are a close confidant and privy to all of Mejia’s thoughts, no one would know better than you.

    (Huge eye roll).

  • WilponsNeed2Go

    Wheeler > Colon

  • Peter S

    I can buy that but nevertheless welcome to New York

  • Peter S

    I do

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    can you read???

    If so youd see that I stated numerous times that neither Mejia OR Wheeler should be moved to the bullpen. They both should remain starters.

    And please dont speak on things you have no freaking idea about lol….Archer is in the pen because the Rays unlike the Mets believe in continued development of their prospects and getting the most out of them. And thats why Archer is still in the rotation….that and the fact that they just gave him a new contract worth $25mil showing they believe in him.

    FACTS not BS

  • Peter S

    Why would the Indians do that deal? Not too mention that the kid is not even major league ready.

  • BCleveland3381

    I don’t agree at all with that. Starting pitching is supposed to be the strength of this team. Our starting pitching is supposed to be carrying us, we can’t afford to have 40% of or rotation developing. Mejia is the first man out, and he’ll get his chance in the ‘pen. He was never getting anywhere near 200 IP anyway, considering his recent injury history he was going to get an innings cap, at least now he might be able to help the team for the entire season. Hopefully he or Familia is given the closers role soon.

    As for Wheeler, I agree with the argument that he hasn’t at all shown to be better than Mejia. But with the way Wheeler is pitching, I don’t want him in the bullpen. I think the Mets know it’s either the Mets rotation, or the Vegas rotation for him and they don’t want to have to demote him, so he keeps is spot….for now.

  • Bobby O

    Mejia

  • jason bay

    Wheeler pitched a really good game the last time out against a team that has scored the 2nd most runs in the NL but he still has some distinct weaknesses, primarily Vs LHB’s and repeating his release point.

    His upside still beats the hell out of having to pick up a Redding, Livan, Capuano, Young, Marcum or Colon every year and there us no reason to think he won’t pick it up in time.

  • jason bay

    No one else was the reason we stuck so long with Ike and Bay, Put Duda in RF and LF and Thole behind the plate, Tejada, Kirk, Carson, Stinson, Edgin, McHugh, Schwinden, tendered Pelfrey ect ect ect.

    Nothing new about that.

  • Bobby O

    Off topic- wow another TJ surgery yesterday- reliever Tyler Bashlor who Paul Depo was on high on.

  • TPT

    exactly right JB people forget the 6 ip 4 hits and 10 ks against the Marlins and at least hes still a kid and not 41 like Colon whos locked up for 2 yrs at 20 million and a much bigger concern to me than Wheeler..hmmmm do you think the Yankees wouldn’t want Wheeler? in fact almost every team wouldn’t pass him up if they had the chance

  • mets12

    Seems like the trolls are having a field day with this article. Lol.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    “As far as unproven’s. Black is pitching lights out right now and deserves the chance to pitch in this pen.

    Familia with 18 innings and 10 walks is not good. Eventually those will lead to even more runs to add to his 3.44 era.”

    Are you aware that Black has walked 15 batters in 15.2 innings in Triple A???

    So how can you say Familias 10BB in 18 IP in the majors is a problem, yet Black is lights out with 15BB in 15.2 IP in the minors?

    Its a knee jerk reaction because Familia didnt look great last night.
    ————————————-
    And the reason Mejia hasnt pitched more than 97IP is due to his handling. Mejia was ALWAYS a starting pitcher until the Mets were struggling to find good arms for the bullpen..

    So to fill a NEED they sacrificed the further development of Mejia, and he got HURT do to his use out of the pen…sound familiar???

    If it does its because Sandy is repeating history with the SAME PLAYER it was unsuccessful once why does Sandy think it’ll be different now? PURE INSANITY!!!

  • jason bay

    Mejia definitely has the stuff to come out if the pen with whereas Wheeler may come out wild. Walk 3 guys then where do you go?

    Minaya and Warthen have thought if Mejia as a high leverage reliever and with having averaged just 75 innings the last 4 years it makes perfect sense to put him in the pen and let him compete for a spot in the rotation next year.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Yeah if Lagares were as bad as TDA is now offensively….he[Lagares would be playing in Vegas for Backman right now…no questions asked.

    Its a double standard. The message this is sending through the org is not a good one

  • TPT

    haha yea well if you were a troll im sure this article would be more apealing to you than

    A Tale Of Two Cities: Mets Going Up, Yanks Going Down

  • RyanF55

    How so?

  • jason bay

    Oh man!

    I’ve seen Bashlor in Kingsport and he is one hell of a hard thrower. Wild but the arm on him….whew.

    Too bad and best of luck Tyler.

  • Monix

    So the same guy whining about the state of the Mets pen wants Mejia in the rotation despite a dreadful ERA a third time thru the order and with better options in the farm system. Got it.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Lmfao…I never said I was in his mind or privvy to his thoughts….HE WAS QUOTED AS SAYING SUCH…THAT WAS HIS REASON….

    LOL….(HUGE LAUGH)

  • Bobby O

    Yes, he was a pretty big overslot shot for Paul.

  • kw_all

    I am a huge fan of Wheeler and Mejia .. and they have completely different issues.
    Mejia runs out of gas the 3rd time through the order
    Wheeler cannot consistently throw strikes, and has no 2 strike pitch to get batters out.
    its not racism folks, just good old fashioned hardball.
    lets not make it something it isnt.

  • RyanF55

    He’ll be fine, all is well.

  • kw_all

    and if Zach continues to fail, he will be going to AAA, not to the bullpen to be a dominant reliever

  • jason bay

    Probably is ML ready but even if he wasn’t you have to make that move, that plus a Pederson/Polanco/Dahl/Meadows puts us in phenomenal shape going forward.

  • Mikey

    I don’t know why people are surprised by what they are seeing…
    What has always been the knock on Wheeler even before we traded for him?

    WILD THING! Sometimes he just can’t find the plate!
    And it has ALWAYS been about his release Point!
    I’ll tell you this though…If they keep making him throw through days like yesterday the kid is going to wind up on an operating table in no time flat!

    Considering how the League should already be getting wholesale prices on TJ Surgery…More days like yesterday and Wheeler will be on the waiting list!

  • jason bay

    Most of the people pointing out Wheeler’s negatives were the same one’s hyping Fern, Thole, Kirk, Duda, Tejada, Edgin, ect.

    Go figure.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    You have no baseball IQ…Who says Montero and/or DeGgrom are better options than Mejia???

    They COULD BE BUT…. they could also be far worse. They are unknowns…I know Mejia can dominate major league hitter because Ive seen a big enough sample size.

    I dont know what the prospects will be they can be Harvey or Pelfrey…you nor I know.

    My point is you dont move a guy who has the talent to pitch at a high level in the rotation in the pen.

    You want bullpen help go get bullpen arms like Hanrahan who Sandy wasnt even in on the bidding for or callup the PROSPECTS ARMS we’ve been hearing about.

    Have themm pitch out of the pen and if Mejia or Wheeler show over TIME they cant hack the rotation then you move a Montero into the rotation.

  • jason bay

    As was Evans, Oswalt, Whalen, Flexen and Gessellmen.

  • Hodges14

    The only ones hyping Edgin were Utley and Howard hahaha.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Hope he runs off a few good starts and we can trade him

  • jason bay

    Well said TPT.

  • Not4

    A realistic goal for Wheeler at the beginning of this season (i.e. 7 weeks ago) was for him to improve from just an MLB pitcher to a good MLB Pitcher (a No. 3 starter or better). The key for him to reach that goal was for him to gain better control, learn how to “pitch”. Clearly, he has not yet made that leap yet and from the looks of it, barring some “AHA!!” moment, it will take some time for him to get there. But there is nothing he has done so far to rule out that sort of improvement happening this season. In fact, I’d argue that this season underscores the fact that Wheeler has the arm and stuff to be a top pitcher, but continues to lack the control and “pitching” ability at this time. And, only time will tell if he will make strides this season or not. I expect (well, really hope) that he will make strides and establish himself as a solid pitcher this year, and then take the next step in 2015 to top of the rotation starter. Not all pitchers become sensations overnight. Many develop over their first few years. Of course, no guarantee, but his “stuff” warrants patience.

    IMO, so does Mejia’s pitching ability. I would have preferred seeing him stay a starter, but as he was on some sort of an innings limit, moving him to the BP to extend his season was probably inevitable. The big concern there, of course, is that TC overuses or misuses him and he gets injured again. While I cannot rule out that Wheeler is being given a longer leash because he is a “Sandy guy”, I think the more likely reason is the innings limit, Mejia’s inevitable move to the BP this season and current need. Just hoping that he is given every chance to start again next year – where he could probably bring the greatest value. That is, of course, unless he becomes a dominant closer and not only thrives in that position, but relishes it as well.

  • jason bay

    That’s it in a nutshell.

  • Joey D.

    HI Dealingwithidiots,
    It goes both ways regarding the Alderson issue and that is why I was quick to point out how those of us who were sincerely cautious based on what we were able to decipher about Zach were also called out by many as simply being “anti-Sandy” and therefore wishing for Wheeler to fail.
    On my part, I have indeed expressed my feelings about Zach and the circumstances of which he was obtained. I was and always will be opposed to how we obtained Zack on principle because of 2011 but that does not mean it is influencing my judgment on him as a player.

  • kw_all

    The Cardinals do it all the time .. take a starter and put him in the bullpen based on need .. im just saying.

    im not interested in being insulted by you, however i think Mejia in the pen is a good thing at least in the short term for the New York Mets on 5/14/14

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    We’ll agree to disagree then.

    FYI You are contradicting yourself and dont realize it.

    “Our starting pitching is supposed to be carrying us, we can’t afford to have 40% of or rotation developing.”

    What do you think will be the case when Wheeler and Montero are in the rotation???

    EXACTLY….. 😉

    And Mejia was far more seasoned than Montero who will need more developing facing major league hitters for the 1st time in his career.

    We are supposed to be a young developing team…DEVELOPING these youngsters now pay off in the future and present depending on progression and effectiveness of the developmental plan.

  • Nimmofan25

    No Mejia couldn’t get past the 5th inning.

  • Bobby O

    There’s been some buzz that the Tribe might fast track Francisco to the majors from AA. However, I guess you and BCleveland3381 are right- Why would the Tribe do that deal? Cabrera is going to get too expensive for them as a FA after this season and the position scarcity at SS.

  • Nimmofan25

    I would look to package Wheeler in a deal to the Dodgers for Gordon and Pederson.

  • Joey D.

    Hi Metsie,
    Because we were being objective in our following of Zach it was always assumed we were making things up or looking to pick on him because he was acquired by Sandy Alderson.
    I am concerned about the inverted W mechanics and Zach’s speed and just hope the two trains don’t meet. Another problem with that goes beyond the inverted W for I feel pitchers today are not taught how to pace themselves to pitch a full nine innings and thus they put too much into every pitch knowing they will only be throwing up to a certain amount of pitches. Too much energy compressed into too short a time on the mound instead of it being stretched out a bit and conserved for later. How much does that play into the stress factor instead of pitch counts and innings limits?

  • Hitmanᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ✔

    Shame Gordon can’t hack it at short.

  • Monix

    I have no baseball IQ because I want to put a 4 or 5 inning pitcher in the pen? Yea lets keep Montero and Syndergaard down in Triple A all year so we can keep Mejia and his 6+ ERA a third time thru the order in the rotation. Good call.
    What do you think depletes a bullpen, by the way?? Starters who can’t go three times through a batting order.
    Hanrahan isn’t ready for another month. He wasn’t/isn’t an option for a team that needs immediate help. Good baseball IQ you got there pal.

  • metsman

    Although he has struggled, Wheeler has won us games and has a bright future; if people feel like being hard on someone, how about Darno who really does nothing well. Where’s old backstop who pointed out the flaws in his footwork right off the rip and since then we’ve seen him pass balls and not block “wild pitches” constantly, he air mails throws, and is a black hole at the plate. He’s older than Tejada for crying out loud; he better do something quick or he is going to kill the cred of the scouts that have been gushing over him for years like he’s the second coming.

  • Joey D.

    Hi Bobby O,
    Also, did I miss it when the Mets had the champagne ready for Matt Harvey after he won his first game in 2012?

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Insulted? Who have I insulted?

    Me and @BCleveland3381:disqus are having a cordial conversation…and debating our points civilly. He hasnt insulted me and i havent insulted him. So why would I insult you unprovoked?

    I dont insult people based on their differing opinions, only those who feel the need to insult me 1st

    PERCEPTION vs REALITY
    ————————————–
    As far as the Cardinals go…They never move a prospect from the MAJOR LEAGUE ROSTER to the bullpen. They only promote prospects from the MINORS rotation to the bullpen ie Wacha, Martinez to name a few.

    And we’ll agree to disagree on this being the best move for the Mets. Its just as shortsighted now as it was then when Omar Minaya did it and everyone killed Omar afterwards for moving Mejia to the pen. Its shortsighted…..Im sure even @jason_bay:disqus can agree with that if he is being honest with himself

  • Not4

    Can you explain to me why Mejia has no chance to improve, but other young pitchers do?

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    LoL….you would put the wagon before the horse.

    Knee jerk reactive Mets fans.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    I DIDNT STATE R@CISM DUDE….

    Which is why I SPECIFICALLY SHOT THAT NOTION DOWN.

    I knew someone would try and make it into race and take away from the conversation.

    I was clear that that wasnt my intention…smgdh

  • Mikey

    yes the Max Effort doesn’t work because the thing about speed is once your used to it it isn’t effective anymore!

    If you drove 100 MPH all the time it wouldn’t seem so hard to react to things around you….
    Same for the Batter…
    If your constantly throwing 95 then they will get the timing and start to tee Off…

    Which is why you hear all the time you need to change speeds.
    And sometimes the BEST change of speed is throwing 95 when the player is used to seeing 90 and 91!

    That sure catches him by surprise a hell of a lot more with less time to react than going from 95 to 91 where he has MORE time to react!

    The real issue is they are teaching kids to pitch with their arms and none of them use their Legs the way the great Pitchers like Seaver and Ryan did…
    Thats why you see so many Arm injuries these days.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Wheeler has another 4-5 starts. If he doesnt turn it around, Noah will be past Super 2 and replace Wheeler in the rotation. Wheeler will find himself in Wallyworld.

  • Saratoga_Jon

    He’s max effort and It’s possible he just gets tired.

    I think it’s wrong to classify Mejia’s move to the bullpen as a demotion. It’s not a demotion. It just may be where he has the best chance of long term success.

  • Nimmofan25

    Neither could Flores but it didn’t stop fans for wanting him there.

  • Not4

    It is possible he just gets tired. It’s also possible that he simply still needs to learn how to better manage the game and his pitch count, or maybe even throttle back the max effort. But the stuff is there, especially the nasty, natural movement on his fastballs. Don’t see any reason to not give him every chance to perform as a starter, which is where virtually all pitchers’ greatest value lies.

  • Joey D.

    Hi Metsie,
    I’ve alluded to on many an occasion the lost art of the full windup which created a natural forward motion for the arm and shoulders to follow rather than the whip action in which those two areas take more of the lead.
    I’m not a player nor a physician but I’ve read many an old time pitcher and sports doctor make these points. Now, that doesn’t mean, of course, that arms won’t be blown out anyway because there were so many that were even back then. But to see so many youngsters just suddenly go not just on the DL but under the knife with what earlier would have been either career ending injuries or injuries that would have reduced their pitching effectiveness is indeed startling.
    With so much talent we see in the game today, it’s a shame there has to be so much wrong going on at the same time because the players are not being trained or taught properly.

  • Nimmofan25

    Still crying about trading Beltran, considering he said he wouldn’t have signed back with the Mets? Find an argument that holds water then complain.

  • Monix

    That makes no sense. It’s not a decision that was done after 1 bad game by Mejia. Sorry you don’t get it. At this point, esp with the way Mejia looked in the pen Monday, you’re just making yourself look stupid, especially when you openly admit that you don’t even watch games.

  • Nimmofan25

    Has every chance to improve, the bullpen doesn’t he fits what is needed. Mejia adds more to this team in the pen then the starting rotation. Especially with guys like Montero Degrom and Thor ready to take spots in the rotation.

  • astoriacub

    Wheeler isn’t going anywhere. He has to take his lumps and learn how to manage the situation at this level. He had a bad night. Every pitcher has them.

  • astoriacub

    Indeed. He’s going through some growing pains. He’s going to have more starts like this. He’s going to have amazing starts as well. It’s matter of being patient with him and make an assessment of what he is at the end of the season.

  • astoriacub

    how insightful

  • Peter S

    They would want Montero or Noah…the shine has worn off on Wheeler.

  • Peter S

    True but unlikely this FO will give up on Wheeler.

  • Not4

    Well, that is different than saying he cannot get past the 5th inning.

    Look I’ve loved Mejia since his days in Brooklyn and think virtually any pitcher’s highest value to a team is as a starter if possible. No guarantees that any of those three you mentioned wind up being better (though I like all three also). As I noted elsewhere I don’t mind the move to the BP (except for TC’s propensity to overuse and misuse his BP pieces, which scares me) this year, as it was inevitable to keep him pitching longer with a likely innings limit of 100-120 innings (give or take) and fills a real need. I just don’t want to see him pigeon-holed into the reliever role unless and until he proves that he brings more value out of the pen than as a starter, which could happen one of two ways. Either (1) he proves to be a dominant closer or (2) he proves that he is not an effective starter.

  • blaiseda

    Joey D and Metsie… finally an accurate and intelligent discussion about why pitchers cant pitch deep into games and why they are increasing needing TJ surgery. The only question remains is why MLB hasn’t done anything to change? HS and College leagues have no incentive to change because the pitchers usually dont get hurt until they are pros. I guess MLB just figures there’s plaenty more where that came from? but that doesn’t jibe with their recent rule changes like the new collision rule to protect star players. Any thoughts?

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    NO WAY Wheeler gets demoted. Sandy would never

    And the only person Syndegaard should be replacing is that fat 41yr old bozo Colon.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    u mean the guy that was credited to Omar down…

    If Brad Eamus had even hit .250 with decent defense, we never see what Murphy has for us in 2011…

    Had colin cowgil even hit .250 with 10 HR for us in 2013, we never see Juan Lagares.

    this is about this regime caring more about their reputation for being talent evaluators than actually fielding a winner.

  • Fonzie

    He’s been crying about it for nearly 3 years as well as the same 3 or 4 topics he repeats on a daily basis, the majority of which are far removed from truth.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    4 years in…

    and how many scouts do the Mets have employed in Puerto Rico…?

  • Hodges14

    I think they’ll trade a starter to make room for Syndergaard. Hopefully they can net a SS in return.

  • Fonzie

    Nail hit squarley on head.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    point to the part where he said he would never sign back with the mets…

  • Just_Da_damaja

    why does mejia project better in the pen?

    if mejia showed he could dominate for 6-7 innings, would u rather have him in the pen or as a SP ?

  • Fonzie

    So true. He’s so quick to pull a pitcher putting up goose eggs because of the magical 100 pitch count but he does sh/t like last night leaving Wheeler out there far too long. By far Alderson’s biggest F- up hiring and then extending this moron.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    Batters are hitting .400 against Wheeler the 3rd time around..

    and thats on top of not being able to consistently throw strikes…not having a deep variety of pitches…

    lets ignore the race factor here, it doesnt apply…

    why does Wheeler ( a Sandy guy ) deserve all this patience, but Mejia doesnt?

  • Just_Da_damaja

    why would u put Duda in RF and Bay in LF ?

    just common sense alone would tell u that Bay could cover more ground…

    Duda was ranked the MLB’s worst defensive RF in 2012

    and Sandy tendered Pelfrey a contract in 2012 knowing he had been pitching with a torn rotator cuff for 1.5 years.

    that was already established in 2011 that he injured himself in 2010

    and of course Pelfrey injures himself in spring training, out for the year, 5 mil down the tubes in a season where Sandy had little wiggle room.

    that was..uhh…not smart

    thoughts ?

  • Just_Da_damaja

    and who do u think is more likely to blow out his elbow from changing from starter to reliever in the middle of the season?

  • Just_Da_damaja

    http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/jenrry-mejia-faces-demotion-to-bullpen-but-he-s-scared-of-hurting-his-arm-again-1.7984708

    Asked whether he has specific limitations that would keep him from pitching out of the bullpen, he said: “I worry about my arm. I want to have a long career. I don’t want to get hurt again.”

    nothing to do with injuries…

  • Just_Da_damaja

    he’s oliver perez with a pitchfork and a shotgun in the back of the pickup truck.

  • ed charles

    Where is Black? And how is Edgin fairing lately?

  • ed charles

    2015:

    Harvey (assuming)
    Niese
    Syndegaard
    (Gee)
    Wheeler
    (Montero)

    Colon will be traded at deadline for nothing or something if he’s pitching well
    DeGrom will be traded during offseason — maybe Gee as well.

    BP – Parnell (assuming)
    Familia
    Black
    Rice
    Torres
    Meijia
    Edgin (we need another lefty Leather?)

  • Fonzie

    He never makes sense. Ever!

  • Fast Eddie

    Once the scouts find a kid who can throw 95mph, they never seem to counsel him to throw strikes at lower velocities. IMO, the reason for the outbreak of TJS surgeries has to do primarily with players who never take any time off from baseball after age 14 or so. And then there’s the damage done to the elbow when they try to throw curves and sliders at a young age.

    Kids who throw hard should be encouraged to work on their command of the pitch as well as adding wrinkles like a cutter and change-up, which are products of a change of grip on the ball, not from added stress on the elbow. Then they should take a few months off each winter and not throw hard at all.

    As a general rule, fastballs are hard on the shoulder/rotator cuff, while curves and sliders attack the elbow joint.

    Veloz

  • Rocky Thompson

    Based on their respective injury history, Mejia is more likely to blow out his arm whether he remains a starter or is moved to the bullpen. I do not think it is a good idea to make him a closer. He should be used for multiple innings, but not pitch on consecutive days.

  • Nimmofan25

    Not when the team has an abundance of starting pitching and has a major lack of pitching in the pen. Here’s a question for you, which pitcher do you want to see traded? Niese or Gee? Harvey has his spot, Montero, Degrom and Thor coming up. Plus the pitcher they will be getting in the Ike trade. Colon has no value, Wheeler may be the weak link.
    I would’ve traded Mejia once he complained about being put in the pen.

  • Nimmofan25

    You shouldn’t assume Harvey will come back fully healthy, which keeps Degrom in a Mets uniform. Especially since his numbers during spring and in the minors were better then Montero’s and Thor’s. Edgin is finished if they thought another lefty was that important they’d have another lefty.

  • Joey D.

    Hi blaiseda,

    I have no idea why other than this might be representative of the bigger issue of non-baseball people running the show and introducing pitch limits and innings limits and a new attitude about giving all one has to give for a shorter time. It’s not like when Ron Darling was pitching.

    Even though Sandy Alderson said baseball has no clue as to what is the cause and what measures could be done, I do have to ask why don’t they go back to the old methods we speak about and give it a try? Is it because that would be giving into “conventional wisdom”?

  • Mikey

    The problem is they (wrongly) think going Max Effort for 5-6 Innings is less wear and tear than going 8 or 9.
    They think LIMITING a Pitch Count is the key when in truth is is REDUCING the Pitch count by throwing strikes, Economizing your Pitches by not being afraid of contact and saving that Max effort for times when you actually need it.

    It’s no different than anything else in life…Just because it is capable of something doesn’t mean that it’s good to do it all the time.

    A car says it can do 120MPH but if the engine were asked to go at that speed all the time it would last about a month before needing replacing or servicing.

    Saying 100 Pitches for a guy throwing his top 95 on every pitch is not going to make him less prone to injury as a guy who CAN throw 95 but only does it three or four times a game!
    He can throw 120 Pitches without breaking or wearing out because you are not STRESSING the 95 Mph arm you are simply using it.

    Fast Eddie also has a good point on why this has changed so I’ll finish my point in reply to him…

  • skiplockweird

    Seriously? can you read or just type?

  • Mikey

    Injury is about stress and OVER stress…
    Your Right when they see a guy throw 95 not only do they not tell him to throw at a lower velocity they in fact do the OPPOSITE and tell him to throw 95 all the time!

    When you ask something to more than it is capable of it breaks!
    If you try to max effort all the time it breaks as well.
    What made Parnell successful as a Closer?

    He sure wasn’t cutting it throwing 105 MPH on every pitch did he?
    Nope it wasn’t until he took something off to get control and when needed he could still reach back and throw that 105 MPH fastball by someone….

    My only issue with him was he didn’t do the latter enough but then again Injuries have been in play.

  • Monix

    It’s not even a debate. Farnsworth was the most recent closer. He’s not getting cut today.

  • Mikey

    It’s not just the full windup though…It did help what I think is the real problem though…

    LEG DRIVE!
    These guys are being taught to use less leg which is where all the power a human can muster comes from.

    Take a look at any picture of Seaver pitching and look at his right knee….

    Back then the windup and the leg drive put the pitcher’s arm into position without having to fling his arm back via his arm muscles.
    The Arm would stay where it was at the top of the windup and the body would move forward and down to extend the arm. Then the arm would move forward with all the energy from the BODY with the added energy of the arm (much less arm energy used than today). to reach those top speed fastballs.

    Without the body helping it’s all on the ARM to generate the power….
    Well no wonder those Arms blow out!

    You know when you lift something heavy they say lift from the legs…
    There is a reason for that! They are built to generate power and take abuse…Arms are not!

    They need to rethink how these Pitcher’s pitch and get them to use their legs more to generate their power and speed so that they don’t need to stress their Arm to get it and what they use in their arm to throw 91 now will get them that 95 PLUS the ability to throw to 100 when needed.

  • RyanF55

    He can’t pitch out of the 5th inning. He has great stuff, but it’s limited in terms of length. He fits a major team need, and Montero and Syndergaard project better as a starter.

  • Devan Cleary

    Economics is not a strong suit for Sandy lovers exactly why they thought CY was a “great” signing

  • Joey D.

    Hi Metsie,

    I’m sure the answer, like everything else, will be found in the statistics. 🙂

  • Tommy

    Dillon Gee = DL lat strain! deGrom to start Thursday!

  • Not4

    To your first point, I’d disagree. Even when there is an abundance of pitching, you’d like to maximize value of all players and starters have more value to a team generally. No guarantees on the three young guns (or Mejia for that matter) sticking as starters. deGrom may not even get the chance (though I’d like to see him get a fair shake for same reason as Mejia).

    As for who I would trade between Niese and Gee, I’d go with whomever can net you the better return at the time. I still have my doubts about Gee’s ability to sustain success over the years (though he keeps proving his doubters wrong and keeps getting guys out), just because you rarely see a softer tossing RH starter who can sustain a lengthy career. (Mets related, I’m thinking about guys like Bobby Jones, Rick Reed and Brian Bannister. Arguably, Gee may be better than all three) But with all the hart throwers, I think it plays up Gee even more.

    Ultimately, I think Niese will bring more (as long as he stays healthy) as he has an extremely team friendly LT contract (LT for the team, not so much for him with team options for 2 or 3 years at reasonable levels). Health is a big “if” though.

    Even next year, presumably we’ll have innings limits to deal with for Harvey and Syndergaard, so having a more starters is always better. Things generally sort themselves out. But assuming Harvey comes back healthy, and Montero and Thor do not disappoint, I’d expect the starting 5 to be Harvey, Syndergaard, Montero, Wheeler and whichever of Gee or Niese is not traded. (Think one of those guys and Colon gets traded either at this year’s trade deadline or over the winter).

    Colon could have some pretty decent value, but only if he pitches more like earlier this season or last year. You’re right that currently he has little value either to the team or as a trade chip. But if he puts together 8 solid starts out of his next 10, he should be able to net us a pretty good return (think Herrera/Black type of pieces and not Wheeler or d’Arnaud/Syndergaard).

  • ed charles

    Right, and if they thought a real SS, LF or 1B was needed they’d have one. And Edgin is finished, got it….

  • jason bay

    I’m not convinced Pelfrey was pitching with a torn rotator cuff for a year and a half and regardless he went down with the elbow and needed TJ so that’s not even relevant.

    As for Bay in RF I can agree but I think it had more to do with trying to get something (anything) out of him and not give him anything more to think about.

    On the other hand maybe it would have helped.

  • jason bay

    Relievers have longer careers than starters although starters make a lot more money.

    I’m not convinced that injuries were caused by his move to the pen anymore than I am that he is more susceptible to them in the pen. More like the opposite

  • It’s still May. He’ll be fine. (I hope). No I pray, since you’ll never let me live it down. Ha.

  • Joey D.

    Hi Glider,
    If Colon is traded for nothing, I wonder how much of that will include the Mets paying cash for that “nothing” as well. We mustn’t forget there is a little matter of $11 million for 2015 that has to come with the merchandise.

  • ed charles

    Indeed, I am assuming if Colon keeps it up, it will more likely than not be a salary dump. Someone out there in a pennant race will think they can squeeze a few starts out of him. As for next year, I suspect they will deal with next year. Hopefully, he settles down and he becomes something more valuable.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    that’s nice. I’m sure your opinion means alot to Jennry.

    But in the meantime, Jennry’s quotes on moving back and forth between starter and reliever declare you as being wrong on the topic.

    it does have something to do with injuries.

  • Joey D.

    Hi Glider,

    I think the Mets might have to take some of that 2015 contract off the other team’s hands as well. And if he doesn’t pitch well this season, it’s a lose-lose deal with it being a bigger dead weight contract than Oliver Perez considering that the Mets don’t have the money to waste.

  • skiplockweird

    It’s not a debate, he was cut today. Well, at least you watch the games.

  • Mikey

    No and you know why it won’t?
    because I remember a conversation I had with MMO’s resident Stat Central and when I showed him a chart that showed Wheeler’s release point being sloppy compared to Harvey’s he refused to admit the chart (made from statistics) showed any difference when to everyone else it was as clear as day!

  • Joey D.

    Hi Metsie,

    Yeah, I remember that.

    Did you also catch the conversation I was having regarding PPPA today and why the stat is another that is so inconsequential and indicative of nothing? Besides pointing out all the thousands of at bats and variety of so many circumstances involved (anyone facing Wheeler yesterday would automatically get a lift in PPPA) I also provided a chart of the NL team PPPA for 2013. The Cardinals I pointed out were top in the league in run scoring and outdistanced second place Colorado by almost a half run. The Mets as we know were below league average (and after their first 19 games they were third from the bottom).

    Know what the chart showed? The Mets were first in PPPA and the Cardinals were last. And know what I said what was meant by that? Absolutely nothing!

    Hope all’s been well with you – missed ya this half year you’ve been away.

  • skiplockweird

    I got lucky, I wan’t aware they could save the cash. Valverde can’t be far behind.

  • Mikey

    Other than the conversation we had yesterday I didn’t see any continuation of the PPPA Discussion…

    I find the conversations hard to follow with this Discus program…
    One minute something your replying to is at the top, the next minute it’s not showing at all!

  • kw_all

    simply that Wheeler cannot help in the bullpen and Mejia can.
    if Wheeler continues to struggle, he goes to Vegas, when Mejia struggled he went to the bullpen because they believe he can dominate there. and i think they are correct.

  • kw_all

    i said it wasnt about race either.

    so now i am smgdh …..

  • kw_all

    we can agree to disagee. i think mejia will dominate in relief and the mets certainly need that today.
    notice that i dated the message.

    and you do tend to insult people but i guess they may do it first.

    i may disagree with you, but i wont resort to name calling to make my point. promise.

  • Joey D.

    HI Metsie,

    It’s in the “being too patient at the plate” and it’s between John Q and myself. I started it off with “It depends upon the pitcher, not the pitch count. From Mike Epstein, former major league hitter:”

    And used Epstein’s points about it from there.

    When you get a chance, take a look – there are a few back and forth posts after that so it’s a rather lengthy discussion but I think I made a valid point about why the PPPA is a stat that is for the most part irrelevant to the art of hitting.