Mets Hitting Approach: Back to the Drawing Board

dave_hudgens_2012_05_24

As I was driving around for work yesterday, I was listening to the Mets broadcast on the radio, and something occurred to me.

At some point this year, this team will be no-hit, and you can pretty much assume that their current major league philosophy is the reason not only for that, but for their overall lack of success at the plate.

I’m not a huge “hitting coach” kind of guy. I like to think that when a hitter comes up to the big leagues, he earned his way up by already becoming a major league hitter. Here’s the thing about the Mets though – there is a difference between an organizational philosophy which is an attempt to educate young hitters in an attempt to get them to the big leagues, and a major league hitting philosophy which could change a hitter’s mentality after he’s already reached the big leagues.

My view of a hitting coach is the same as a pitching coach in the major leagues. They are there to help you get back on track when you’ve lost your way a bit. They are supposed to recognize and adjust to each player’s styles and tendencies and work with them to be the best they can possibly be. I feel like Dan Warthen does that, but I get the sense that Dave Hudgens wants everybody to be the same, and if they don’t fit his idea of a quality hitter, he’s going to try and change them.

It’s hard to change people as they get older, and learn more tools that help them achieve success. Think of it as learning a new language, if you’ve only learned one language and you’re successful at what you do and somebody came to you and told you in order to achieve the same success, you have to learn a second language – that wouldn’t be easy to do.

Following the Mets loss to the Marlins, hitting coach Dave Hudgens had some interesting and perhaps concerning comments with regards to the Mets hitters and their approach.

The first quote in this piece to me, comes off as a whole lot of excuses and not a lot of substance.

“It’s a whole different environment in Colorado than it is here,” Hudgens said, contrasting the Mets’ 22 runs in four games at Coors Field versus their three runs in three games at Marlins Park. “Not even the ballpark, but the pitching staffs are a little bit different. We squared some balls up. We just have to keep working through it, trust the process and keep working. There’s no real secrets in it. We’ve just got to keep pushing forward. We hit some balls hard today, squared some balls up. Their pitching is really good.”

Now, I don’t mean to be totally disrespectful to the Marlins here but a guy like Tom Koehler has been more lucky, than good. The fact you can’t beat him says more about you than it does about him. Koehler is a guy with 29 K and 17 BB in 45 innings of work, also allowing 28 hits. You know what that means? That means he has been helped out tremendously by two factors. The first, is his defense and the second is his home ballpark.

If you cannot have success at the plate in spite of the difficult ballpark, then that is not an excuse, it’s a flaw. Spare me this idea that anybody outside of Jose Fernandez in Miami is a pitcher that you are worried about facing. Just because you failed, doesn’t make them something they are not.

You’d think that if any team could succeed in a tough hitter’s park, it’d be a team with a tough hitter’s park. Instead, we’re going to use that as an excuse?

Then Hudgens added to the fire.

“I’m not pleased with the results. I don’t think anybody is pleased with the results. But we’re doing everything we’ve always done as far as getting ready, routines, trying to make adjustments. I’m pleased with how the guys are working and going about their business. Most definitely.”

Perhaps I’m a little confused, but in 2013, the Mets OPS was ranked 14th out of the 15 teams in the NL and in 2014, they remain 14th as well. Maybe it’s just me, but perhaps doing the things you’ve always done isn’t exactly the best formula for success? Maybe, just maybe, if we look at the last few years and realize the offense hasn’t been good – that perhaps a new idea or new way of doing things might be the path to take?

Then, Hudgens explains what he believes is going on with Ruben Tejada.

“I just think he’s trying a little bit too hard. He’s swinging at some very marginal pitches. Yesterday he swung at two pitches that were up and in and hit ground balls. We’re kind of searching, wanting to get hits, as opposed to having a good approach and getting a good ball to hit and don’t try to force it. I think he’s just trying to force it a little bit right now.”

So here’s the other problem I have. If I know the Mets hitting approach pretty much doesn’t change, doesn’t that mean that every team in the NL knows that? It seems that the Mets are stuck on this idea of looking for that ONE pitch. But, here’s the problem. What if you miss that one pitch? Or what if that one pitch comes during the first pitch of the at bat and you watched it go by?

I get the approach with an 18 year old kid, I really do. The problem is you can’t change a hitter when they get to the big leagues. It’s sink or swim by that point, you either are a major league hitter or you are not. Changing how David Wright approaches each at bat does nothing positive for David Wright.

To be fair to Hudgens, there is some blame to go on the players as well. My point is not that I believe somebody like Ruben Tejada is a .290 hitter being held back by Hudgens’ approach. My point is that I think at a major league level, Hudgens’ approach is doing more harm than good.

Let’s say for argument (and dream) sake that the Mets found a way to bring in a superstar caliber hitter such as a Troy Tulowitzki, Giancarlo Stanton or somebody of that stature. What would be the Mets approach with them? To say, “hey what you did up to this point is why we brought you here, but let me introduce you to Dave Hudgens because he is going to change your approach”?

To me, where this team is whiffing (besides at the plate) is they have a minor league instructor trying to implement his methods at the big league level. You can’t do that. You don’t have Dan Warthen trying to change the way Bartolo Colon delivers his pitch do you?

The Mets are doing a lot of things right, even if it’s taking a little more time than some of us had hoped. Their biggest flaw however might be their lack of adjusting and re-tooling after something doesn’t work out the way they hoped.

Dave Hudgens as the major league hitting coach isn’t working. At the major league level, the learning process should be as close to complete as you can get with “experience” being the final piece to the puzzle. Anybody remember Carlos Delgado’s little notebook?

At some point this organization is going to have to admit defeat on some of their practices and adjust accordingly. It’s okay to fail sometimes, it’s how you respond to failure that says more about who you are than anything.

The worst response to failure is crossing your arms, denying that the failure exists and refusing to change your methods, and right now – that sums up the Mets quite nicely.

mmo

About Michael Branda 267 Articles
Michael Branda grew up a Mets fan watching the mid 1980's teams and his favorite Met of all-time is (and was) Wally Backman. When it comes to sabermetrics versus old school thinking, he's in the middle and believes adopting new ways to get answers is helpful, especially when the old way has not produced results.
  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    The thing to keep in mind about Hudgens is that this is SANDY’S philosophy and he is SANDY’S guy. Don’t like the process? Blame Sandy.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Agreed,

    Hudgens and Alderson are tied by the hip on this one.

  • Metropolitan

    How about doing that but with a new hitting coach?? Stop being so damn stubborn Alderson ..

  • EzRider

    I’d like to see some of the PLAYERS change their own approach. I get some of the SA/Hudgens philosophy but i just expect these guys to stand up in the box and say “Hey, this ain’t working for me” then go about “Looking fastball and adjusting to the curve”. I know it’s easier said than done.

    All hitters are different and need to play to their strengths. I’d like to know what sort of in game work these guys are doing. I doesn’t seem like very many of them learn from each at bat or each others at bats. It’s like some of them aren’t even watching the games sometimes.

  • oleosmirf

    “their current major league philosophy is the reason not only for that, but for their overall lack of success at the plate.”

    What a load of garbage.

    It has nothing to do with a hitting philosophy and 100% to do with a team complied of below average talent.

    Granderson, d’Arnaud, EY and Tejada have terrible numbers and that’s half your lineup right there. Not to mention that Wright hasn’t hit for power and Lagares and CY have missed time so that and that alone is the reason for our hitting woes.

  • Alderson and Hudgens may keep preaching patience but what hitter in his right mind would ever want to come play for them, seeing the results of their “approach.” If they can’t admit that the approach is completely flawed due to stubbornness and ego, they should at least admit that it will prevent them from getting good hitters that aren’t wiling to buy into it.

  • derek murphy

    How can a guy who couldn’t hit himself be a hitting instructor in the majors? That would be like me teaching people to skydive. IVe done it before but am not good at it and afraid of heights. Well I won’t be a good instructor and there will be lots of rough landings but it would be very similar.

  • CJM

    Two things: 1) “At some point this year, this team will be no-hit.” I will give you very favorable odds if you put your money behind that statement.

    2) Near the end of this article, it seems like the implication here is that Wright has changed his approach, which is why he’s been terrible this year? Well, Hudgens has been in NY for several years (and been lauded by Wright), and Wright has had great hitting years. So I don’t think they’ve suddenly changed his approach and he is now sucking.

  • oleosmirf

    Tony LaRussa is a career .199 hitter in the majors.

    Dave Duncan never threw a pitch as a professional.

  • Monix

    Agreed about the players not coaches. To me, signing Chris Young tells you everything you need to know. The guy wasn’t a good hitter when he was supposedly good. Now he’s just wasting space on the Mets for 7.5M in the front office’s attempt to find another Byrd to flip at the deadline. It’s not going to work. Young was exposed last year for what he really is.
    I mean why sign another .230 hitter who hits an occasional homer when your lineup also contains Grandy, Duda, TDA.

  • RyanF55

    All this talk about approach, approach, approach. Enough. We wouldn’t have to analyze the approach if we had actual MLB capable hitters. Go out and hit, be smart, but hit. The team is so hellbent on getting on base, being patient, etc. that they forget that they are up there to hit the ball. I think the emphasis on approach is in lieu of having talented players, so we are always trying to get the most out of guys that shouldn’t be in the league. A guy like Tejada, for example, is one we know has no offensive ability, so preaching being “patient” may mean he can draw a walk and actual contribute something. The hitting “approach” is just smoke screen for the ineptitude of offensive skill in the lineup.

  • gameball

    Agree, and have commented to this effect on other threads—molding and shaping a hitter’s approach to conform to a system-wide philosophy is something to be done AT THE MINOR-LEAGUE LEVEL.

    It’s also important to recognize that some batters’ skills may not match up with the “philosophy,” and if that young guy is a keeper regardless of his inability to work deep counts and draw tons of walks, then leave him alone to be as good as he can be on his terms.

    If Daniel Murphy bats .320 this year with 190 hits and 42 doubles, it will be despite the “philosophy,” not because of it.

  • CJM

    It’s worth noting that this is a philosophy that they want to instill throughout the organization, and that many of their minor leaguers are absolutely raking this year (perhaps as a result of this philosophy, perhaps not). It’s pretty clear that if this team will be successful, they will be successful on the backs of their homegrown talent. Mostly because of money.

    Also, “What hitter in his right mind would ever want to come play for them?” 99.99% of professional athletes, all with right mindedness, go to wherever the paycheck is greatest.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Leo Mazzone wasnt exactly an All Star.

    Tommy Lasorda had a cup of coffee in the majors and that is it.

  • Dave_in_Spain

    I couldn´t agree more! Very well written reaction to those quotes. I posted a (very brief) comment to Adam Rubin´s report the other day on these same quotes by Hudgens. When what you´re doing isn´t working, you can´t just keep repeating it– that´s crazy.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    The problem with the philosophy is that the book is out on it. Opposing teams know they’ll be taking, looking for that perfect pitch to drive so they just come throwing strikes and the Mets are in an 0-2 hole almost instantly.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Need a new GM if you want a new approach.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Hitting is easy: swing at fastball and avoid the rest until two strikes unless they are hangers.

    Hernandez harps on this all the time.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Kevin Long never played a professional game in his life.

  • ArchieBellandTheDrells

    Everyone likes to talk about TC’s poor managing, but Hudgens has always been the issue for me. Not once, do you see that Al Bundy looking goon console one of the young hitters like Kirk, Flores, Tejada, or d’Arnaud after a tough at bat. Now maybe he does when the cameras aren’t rolling, but as long as he has been here not one young hitter has improved on the Mets.

  • Dave_in_Spain

    Wright will always toe the company line and say nice things about the coaches and philosophy. Always.

  • CJM

    Charley Lau career .255 hitter. 16 career HRs.

  • jessepmmo

    I don’t think that is a fair knock on Hudgens and I honestly feel like fans use that type of comment as a safety net.

    Some people are better educators than performers. Isiah Thomas was one heck of a basketball player, but he couldn’t coach.

    The Atlanta Braves had one of the best pitching coaches ever in Leo Mazzone – he never pitched in the big leagues.

    This would also be like somebody coming here and telling you or I that our view doesn’t matter because we never faced major league pitching.

  • oleosmirf

    Well CY has not been a problem at all. His numbers are perfectly fine so far. d’Arnaud is a rookie catcher so his numbers are lower than we would like, but still he was expected to struggle early.

    The main issue has been Granderson being Bay 2.0 and Tejada being the worst SS in the ML right now although Flores seems to have replaced him as the starter now.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Daniel Murphy?

  • CJM

    The fact of the matter is, the greatest players very rarely become the greatest coaches. And it’s easy to see why. The game comes naturally to the great players, so they likely have trouble understanding the intricacies of being a guy on the cusp–the little things one must do to break through. Gretzky sucks as a hockey coach. As you pointed out, Isiah couldn’t coach. It is pretty constant across all sports. Even Maradona in soccer is a bad coach.

  • oleosmirf

    Juan Lagares?

  • Taskmaster4450

    “It’s hard to change people as they get older, and learn more tools that help them achieve success.”

    This is the best line and the basis of the entire problem.

    The Mets approach might pay dividends with guys like Nimmo, Smith, and Cecchini since they know nothing else and are reared throughout their professional career with it. However, to expect Grandy to adopt this approach at his age, after his success, is crazy. The same could even be said for a guys like Lagares and Flores who spent half their professional careers using another approach. Just as insane is to expect a guy like TdA, who spent most of this entire career in other organizations to suddenly be able to use the approach at the plate.

    That being said, he is one change the Mets need to make with many of their hitters….teach them that the opposite field exists especially the lefties. Look at the guys with the highest BAs on the team…Lagares, Murphy, and Wright…they all go the opposite way. Look for Flores to do the same since that is where his natural swing takes him. Even CY learned that little trick by talking with Carew, not a bad guy to get advice from. Grandy, Duda, CY, and TdA need to do more of this.

  • HobokenMetsFan

    I agree with everyone below that the “approach” should be taught in the minors, as an organizational philosophy. Not reinventing the wheel at the big league level.

    Furthermore, why do we hear so much about the Mets’ approach? All I hear about is the way the FO wants them to attack pitchers. Yet we never hear about the Yanks approach, or the Braves, or the Cardinals.

    Is it just me or does this whole situation just scream “little league?”

  • CJM

    He has also been a great hitter during Hudgens’ tenure.

  • oleosmirf

    Well if MMO is going to write articles on it every few days, then yea.

  • CJM

    Are you reading Yankees, Braves, and Cardinals blogs every day? That might have something to do with it.

  • ArchieBellandTheDrells

    Juan has.

  • ArchieBellandTheDrells

    I feel like Daniel has been pretty much the same t/o his tenure

  • Monix

    Talk to me in 2 months when you figure out CY isn’t a good baseball player. The team is 1-6 since EY Jr. started sitting.
    I know it’s popular to bash EY Jr on these blogs but to me that stat isn’t a coincidence.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Other than Lagares, over the past few years, what prospect was really a decent major league player?

    TdA and Flores are now arriving…let’s see what they do over 500 ABs..

  • HobokenMetsFan

    Haha fair point. I actually do check out some Yanks, Cardinals, and Phillies blogs, but admittedly not nearly as much as I do the Mets.

    But I mean even beyond the bloggosphere to the NYC media in print and on tv/radio. And yet they never mention the yanks approach….

  • derek murphy

    The mets have a guy named Luis natera who they named a hitting coach. The cardinals and a lot of other teams have made the 2 coach approach very popular. This guy I wanted to take Hudgens place. Saying the hitters are below average and this has nothing to do with him is just ignorant. Teams like the cards who consistently coach up there players and get the most out of them shows how ignorant your thinking is. Natera has made hitters better every year. Guys have career years when he’s there coach. Ask Lageres, Puello, Flores, Dykstra and tovar just to name a few what a difference he made in there game. The only bad thing is he is under Hudgens who uses a cookie cutter approach. Natera individualizes approach based on player and always gets the most out of his hitters. He can’t do that while using the company philosophy. He is one of the best hitting coaches in baseball and the mets would be foolish to not get rid of Hudgens.

    Natera can be to hitting for the mets what Dave Duncan was for cards pitching. He is one of those coaches who can really dissect a players strengths and play them up. People say coaches don’t matter at that level which is stupid. Duncan and mazzone always made pitchers better. Natera can be a difference maker if they take of restraints.

  • gameball

    Yeah, nothing to it.

  • Charley’s Twin

    “The Mets don’t need a new hitting coach, they need new fans.”

    Right Jessep?

  • AJF

    Its not the hitting coach it is the GM telling the hitting coach what to coach Guys that never freaking played professional game!

  • coyote521

    Excellent article. And i think you are on the money.

    If getting a veteran player to change us hard, that’s nothing compared to getting a coach or a manager or a GM to rethink, grow, or even alter their thinking a little bit.
    Especially the clowns who work for the mets.

    Hudgens’ “approach” is a failure.
    But even more problematic is that the front office will never adjust their thinking, and will never face up to their mistakes.

  • derek murphy

    Natera had the biggest impact on Lageres not Hudgens. Lageres is a natera hitter not a Hudgens hitter.

  • everybodysbuddy

    What I have seen with Mets management is an amazing amount of patience in everything they do, to the point that it drives me nuts. From Alderson sticking to his guns when it comes to making trades, to developing players as methodically and slowly as possible. There is a place for patience, and there is a place for accepting that when something isn’t working that change is needed sooner rather than later. Patience doesn’t always pay off!

  • Taskmaster4450

    Nothing to the philosophy but doing it is a different story.

    But it removes the confusion.

  • CJM

    Well I know last year, a big talking point with the Cardinals was how great they were with 2 outs and RISP. Now that the Cardinals’ offense is sucking, I’ve heard quite a bit of talk about how those numbers were bound to regress. Obviously, not a convo about approach, but they are talking about the Cardinals’ current offensive futility as well.

  • CJM

    So Hudgens only catches blame for the players who suck?

  • derek murphy

    Murphy and Lageres don’t adhere to the philosophy so using them as examples only hurts the argument.

  • Charley’s Twin

    this is the same guy who wrote that stupid article about fans from last week. now he is criticizing the hitting coach, who is taking direct instructions from the front office.

  • CJM

    The fact that they ran into two absolute buzz saws in a row, however, is coincidence.

  • Monix

    The fact you think the Marlins are a buzz saw is absolutely hilarious. Rockies yes, Miami no.

  • jessepmmo

    Totally! Thanks for reading!

  • CJM

    The Marlins are on absolute fire right now. My comment has nothing to do with what the Marlins will end up doing the rest of the season. But they are currently one of, if not the, hottest team in baseball.

  • oleosmirf

    Lagares was one of the worst hitters in the game in 2013. Worked very hard with Hudgens and now look at him.

  • Taskmaster4450

    What you wrote is absurd.

    Developing players as slowly as possible? Yeah that is what they are doing. Holding them back just so they can have a backlog in A ball. What the hell is that. Perhaps you need to understand you cant rush development. People can progress at the pace they do. But people are jumping levels. Look at Smith…they started him at Savannah instead of Brooklyn. The kid is 18 still and in A ball. Lagares basically played a handful of games in AAA before being called up to the majors.

    And if it was up to fans, there would be major changes during every losing streak. Get rid of half the team and bring in new guys just because a guy struggles. Hell, many on this site wanted rid of Lagares because he “couldnt hit”.

    Total stupidity.

  • Charley’s Twin

    don’t worry, I didn’t.

  • Monix

    When a team can’t score any runs off middle of the rotation starters, you can make a team look hot. There’s a big difference between playing well and being a buzz saw.

  • HawkZon

    OMG, yes!!

    ^^THIS^^

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    The majority of which has come under Hudgens.

  • CJM

    There is a semantic difference between playing well and being a buzz saw. That’s what you’re arguing–semantics. Before eviscerating the Met, the Marlins took 4 straight from the braves and 2/3 from the Dodgers. The Mets caught them at a very bad time.

  • Monix

    Right, the Mets are fine, they just had bad luck the last 7 games. Got it.

  • derek murphy

    U obviously have no idea what your talking about. The reason natera was promoted was cause of his work with these guys. Lageres had his best year under natera in 2011 hitting 371. Lageres hitting coach right now is natera not Hudgens. I can’t wait for him to get his hands back on Puello. Puello like Dykstra, tovar, Vaughn and Lageres all had career years under natera.

    Saying Lageres is the hitter he is cause of working with Hudgens is stupid. The only year he worked with Hudgens was last year when you say he was one of the worst hitters in baseball. He scoffs at Hudgens philosophy and is a very aggressive hitter. Him and Murphy are nowhere near the top half of majors in pitches per at bat. His best pupils are probably satin and Duda.

  • CJM

    Nice strawman.

  • Monix

    What’s your excuse going to be this weekend when the Phillies out hit them? The Phillies have lost three in a row to Toronoto. No more buzz saw excuses.

  • CJM

    Where have I made a single excuse?

  • Monix

    You called the Rockies and Marlins absolute buzz saws. If that’s not making an excuse for being 1-6 in their last 7 I don’t know what is.

  • CJM

    That’s not an excuse. You contended that they’ve been bad because EYJ is sitting. I pointed out that they happened to catch two very hot teams in a row. That simple. There was no excuse there. If you consider that an excuse, then you yourself are making an excuse, saying the reason they’ve lost is EYJ on the bench.

  • derek murphy

    Hudgens don’t make anyone better. They already have a much better hitting coach on staff. The reason he’s not in charge is cause he hasn’t bought in completely on philisophy. Natera is to valuable for them to let go cause he has such a profound effect on players. Natera has different approaches for players based on strengths and weaknesses.

  • Monix

    I’m sorry your hard-on for Chris Young and his .230 average offended you so much when I pointed out that the Mets are 1-6 since EY Jr.’s benching. I mean, yea, the fact he led the team in runs scored by a large margin and now the team can’t score any runs is all a coincidence. My bad.

  • CJM

    My hard-on for Chris Young? Hmmm, another strawman. Find one post in this entire thread in which I’ve mentioned Chris Young.

  • seldomused

    Hudgens approach has been a failure since his first year. His players take too many pitches and are often behind in the count.

  • Monix

    Dude, are you stupid or just enjoy playing stupid for the sake of trolling. Me and you already had a debate about Chris Young in the past.

  • Wolfmicky21

    *sandy’s approach

  • CJM

    And that has nothing to do with this discussion right now.

  • seldomused

    There is a difference between patience, and watching a meatball fly over the plate because you have a favorable count. I’m also tired of watching called strike 3’s instead of batters protecting the plate. If you come to the plate looking for a walk, you might as well not come to the plate.

  • Monix

    Yea actually it does. CY is playing in EY Jr’s spot.

  • CJM

    I have not chimed in at all on CY or EYJ. I pointed out that they just played two of the hottest teams in baseball.

  • Monix

    I made a point about EY Jr., you chimed in with an asinine remark about playing 2 buzz saws. Besides the fact you ridiculously called the Marlins a buzz saw, it was obviously a response to the EY Jr. point, as such you chimed in about EY Jr. I’m sorry logic fails you.

  • sperry

    I still can’t tell if it’s the approach that’s not working, or the fact that this team simply has not had a lineup full of good, major league hitters in almost a decade.

  • CJM

    Actually, you’re the one who’s been using logical fallacies–just made another one there, reverting back to semantics with buzz saw. If you failed to grasp my point, which is that a very reasonable explanation for their 1-6 skid (though not acceptable, if they want to win) is the two teams they just played, that’s on you. You think the one reason they’ve gone 1-6 was EYJ sitting? I encourage you to look at the whole picture, which is what I was doing when I made my original comment.

  • seldomused

    I agree that it isn’t a fair knock on Hudgens. But there is something wrong with his approach. I like that he preaches patience, but his approach isn’t working the way he’d like. Every player on this team, even David Wright, are taking pitches that should be crushed, or watching strike 3 come over the plate instead of protecting.

    It’s funny to me that the two players with the worst plate discipline on the team are hitting the best (Lagares and Murphy).

  • CJM

    The lineup’s biggest weakness has been the futility of Wright and Granderson. These guys are veterans, and Wright has performed well under Hudgens in previous years. I doubt the hitting philosophy is what’s causing them to suck. Don’t take that as a statement of support for the hitting philosophy either.

  • jessepmmo

    ehh I mean can we at least acknowledge EY Jr was hitting .212 with an OPS under .600? The fact he was on base enough to even score runs might be more of a coincidence no?

    How does a player score runs? They need to get on base right?

    Right now CY and EY have identical OBP… so I mean there is the steal factor, no doubt about that – turning a single into a double, but I don’t think either are really making a difference to be honest

  • seldomused

    That’s my favorite part of all this. The two players will below average plate discipline are hitting well.

  • CJM

    Duda is hitting well, too, and he is the quintessence of this hitting philosophy, fwiw.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    Hey somebody tell this clown to “Stop trying to fix the mets”

    http://metsmerizedonline.com/2014/05/stop-trying-to-fix-the-mets.html/

    Wait…isn’t this the same autho…

    hahahahahahahahahahahahah

    and even then, with all this on hudgens…not one mention on Sandy Alderson’s influence over this team…

  • Monix

    Reading comprehension man. You did what you’re conveniently accusing me of. I pointed out that the Mets are 1-6 since EY Jr.’s benching. Did I anywhere in that post say that the Mets are 1-6 entirely because of EY Jr’s benching? It’s a factor but not the entire story, obviously.

    But congratulations, you did what you always tend to do in these threads when I read them, start ridiculous debates with people on some inane point to try to make yourself look smart when all you do is make yourself look like a giant douche.

  • seldomused

    Thank you for this. It infuriates me when people immediately say TDA is a bum and is a huge bust after 100 PA in the big leagues…or that Brandon Nimmo was a terrible pick because he wasn’t hitting the skin off the ball at age 19.

  • Monix

    I’m not trying to make it sound like EY is a world beater but I just think what production he provides brings more to the party than what production CY provides.

  • Dave Rosenbluth

    That is my point as well. They don’t really have a lot of MLB quality hitters.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    u have lagares confused with TDA.

    Once Lagares got consistent playing time, his avg from June-October was like .250

    even with consistent playing time, TDA has pretty much been a .200 hitter with little pop.

    and Lagares was beasting in the DWL…

    Hudgens was nowhere near DR

  • CJM

    That’s funny. You’re the one throwing around personal insults; I’m just talking baseball. I pointed out that they have played two of the hottest teams in baseball. That’s all. You took off and ran with it in whatever direction you wanted.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    no, i credit hudgens for reyes batting title in 2011

  • jessepmmo

    Maybe. But if you look at CY, in 19 games he is “producing” 19 runs. I’m using “producing” runs as RBI+Runs because you’re giving EY credit for producing when he scores. EY in 29 games has 25 runs to his name… CY’s “pace” is actually better than EY’s ya know.

    The other thing to consider is CY is a better fielding OF than EY. I’d be surprised if you disagree on that. They are two totally different players though – but asking for a guy with a .576 OPS in 29 games to be in the lineup, to me isn’t the answer at all. EY Jr is a utility guy.

    We may find out soon that CY is a 4th OF.

  • seldomused

    Where do you get one of the worst hitters in the game from? He may not walk often but he still hit around .250 last season.

  • CJM

    Lagares was a very bad hitter last year–there’s really no way around that point. He began starting and completing games consistently ~June 1st. Yes, his BA was .255 through the rest of the year, but his slash line was .255/.294/.365. Those numbers are unmistakeably bad. TdA’s been worse, but Lagares was bad last year.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    if u hit into a fielder’s choice, reach via error, reach on a strike out / wildpitch- passed ball, get HBP, come in as a pinch runner, you still get on base and ur OBP has not been raised…

  • CJM

    Dude, hitting around .250 when your OBP is .294 means nothing–that is just plain bad. And he wasn’t hitting for power either. One of the worst? I dk I’d have to look into that. But Lagares was an awful hitter last year.

    *Actually, I still had his split from June 1st through year’s end in my head. Lagares’ line last year was .242/.281/.352. There’s no sugarcoating that.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

    He’s a SUPER SANDY LOVER he never
    finds fault with him just the people around
    him.

  • jessepmmo

    HBP does count in OBP…

  • jessepmmo

    “At some point this organization is going to have to admit defeat on some of their practices and adjust accordingly. It’s okay to fail sometimes, it’s how you respond to failure that says more about who you are than anything. The worst response to failure is crossing your arms, denying that the failure exists and refusing to change your methods, and right now – that sums up the Mets quite nicely.”

  • seldomused

    Murphy has never really walked much, I can’t say that he is a product of Hudgen’s “patience” philosophy. His OBP is never more than .030 higher than his average. At the same time, he’s been hitting .280-.310 since the minors consistently.

  • mr1313

    It’s both.

  • El_Verdadero_Presidente

    Hudgens is a mouthpiece for the org’s approach, no more, no less. You could fire him six times and each time a new little Hudgens will pop up to take his place.

    Myself, I’d like to see some of our guys try something truly revolutionary, like maybe using the whole field. If I’m defending Curtis I stack 7 guys along the RF line. If he doesn’t change it up he’ll never see .200 again.

  • seldomused

    …and his power has dipped considerably during that same tenure.

    Not saying it’s a cause an effect case, but it’s not a positive.

  • FredWilponzi

    I have the answer: get better hitters.

  • mr1313

    Remember Hudgens and Sandy are like brothers they go way back. He isn’t going anywhere. Joe D said it before.

  • FredWilponzi

    The Mets hitting approach is quite simple: hope for a walk and leave it to the next guy to do something big.

    I truly believe that is what they think.

  • Out of place Mets fan

    I wouldn’t say he is hitting well. Comparable to the other 7 guys in the line up sure. But to say he is hitting well is putting on the rose colored fan glasses.

  • Charley’s Twin

    When I saw who wrote this I skipped right past the text to come down here.

  • FredWilponzi

    The Mets hitting approach is quite simple: hope for a walk and leave it to the next guy to do something big.

  • CJM

    And is that Hudgens’ fault? Or is it because he’s walking more because he’s one of very few capable bats? Or is it Citi field which drained Wright’s power? He’s had two very bad power years–’09 and ’11. ’09 was the first year of Citi. ’11 he dealt with a bad back most the year. Yes, his power has dipped, but I can’t put the blame for that on Hudgens, at least not solely on Hudgens. He did also slug .514 last year, which was his best year since ’08. My guess is that the park has been the biggest drain on his power.

  • CJM

    He’s hitting better than everyone except Lagares. My comment was in response to napes22 saying Murphy is hitting well. If you’re gonna say Murph is hitting well, then Duda is hitting well by default.

  • derek murphy

    Has nothing to do with being the best this guy was clueless at the plate. Studying the game and knowing the proper mechanics can make a good coach. Without actual playing experience. The perfect example was Rick Peterson he was a damn good pitching coach with Oakland and with the mets. He helped many pitchers get better cause he took the time to dissect there mechanics and worked for them then worked on making them consistently repeat to sustain success.

    Bringing up isiah Thomas and Wayne Gretzky is stupid. First of all isiah Thomas did an excellent job coaching the pavers. He had a winning record and made the playoffs 3 years in a row. He had ego issues n brought in the wrong guys. He was also a great talent evaluator when it came to drafts he always picked the right player. Gretzky had a real bad team in Phoenix but did have a positive impact on a lot of players. I never said good players make good coaches.

    Dave Hudgens had problems hitting himself he was very unsuccessful. He tried being a hitting coach with Oak he was not retained. He popped up w/oak as a hitting coach with oak again a few years later and bombed again. They had established hitters and Beane felt he made them a worse situational hitting team than they were. So Beane fired him n he cried n begged for his job n said u can talk to this guy n that guy n Beane said he didn’t need to talk to anyone. He had seen for himself. Now he’s with the mets n nothing changed we just don’t have Beane here to fire his a$$.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Lmfao…What a coincidence, cause I did the same thing 😀

    He would fit perfectly on Matt Cerrones staff

  • Charley’s Twin

    Well he can at least type a coherent sentence, unlike the Messblog Minions.

  • mad met

    Duda duda duda duda .cleanup hitter my a$$

  • CJM

    You literally just contradicted your original comment. You said, “How can a guy who couldn’t hit himself be a hitting instructor in the majors?”

    Now you just wrote that studying the game and mechanics can make a good coach, without actually playing the game.

  • USMF

    Fire Hudgens. A successful coach is able to work to the strengths of his team and get people to buy into the approach. I’m sick of hearing that the message is right, and the players just don’t follow it. THAT’S A COACHING FAILURE!

    And trying to force every hitter in to a one size fits all approach. I’m all for working the count, making the pitcher work and taking a walk when it’s given….but I can’t standing watching a 2-0 fastball go buy almost every time without even an effort.

    Am I the only one who notices that the only guy who’s had consistent success the past few years is Murph? the one guy who doesn’t follow the “plan”.

    And Hudgens hasn’t done anything to fix Grady or Wright…hasn’t helped Tejada or TdA…he’s screwed up Duda and Ike.

    Don’t know why he still has a job.

  • derek murphy

    Murphy is hitting circles around Duda. How can u say there hitting the same?

  • mad met

    Until u need a hit and he begs for a walk but strikeout looking

  • CJM

    Is that what’s happened with Duda this year, particularly? My sense is that napes22 is talking about this year based on his comment. Has Duda failed to hit when they need hits this year?

  • CJM

    Haha. That’s patently false.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    How exactly is Duda “HITTING” better than Daniel Murphy???

    Daniel Murphy

    .308AVG/.340OBP/.421SLG…41 Hits

    Lucas Duda

    .266AVG/.355OBP/.426SLG…25 Hits

  • CJM

    Let’s see, higher OBP and higher SLG are both Duda’s. That’s how.

  • Intelligent and mature as always…

  • derek murphy

    I hope this was a joke. Murphy and Duda are playing on different levels. Duda is a bum and should be cut. He should not be starting for the mets. He’s a very light hitting 1b.

  • CJM

    Ok, bud.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    LMFAO!

    Daniel Murphy

    133AB, 41 Hits, 7BB, 10 Doubles, 1Triple, 1Homerun

    Lucas Duda

    94AB, 25 Hits, 11BB, 3 Doubles, 4Homeruns

    Youre insane…lol,,,Id take Murphys numbers over Dudas EVERYDAY

  • CJM

    Good for you.

  • What is so funny? I think the clown is the one who sticks to a failed philosophy or holds to their failed and faulty arguments.

    Your agendas are showing again.

  • mr1313

    You have to factor the position they play as well.

  • “wherever the paycheck is greatest”….another reason they will never come here.

  • Hotstreak

    It ain’t mean a thing if you don’t swing>>>> Duda Duda

  • CJM

    Not in the context of this discussion. Comparing just their hitting stats, they play the same position–hitter. Murphy might be leaps and bounds above other second basemen, while Duda is middle of the pack among first basemen, but that doesn’t mean Murphy is hitting better than Duda.

  • CJM

    True, but not exactly applicable here.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Your Duda love has reached an all time low.

    And you provided a perfect example of why some DONT respect SABR lovers.You used OBP and SLG ONLY to say Duda is a better hitter than Murph which is insane when you look at the complete stats

  • DejaVu

    This “Philosophy” doesn’t work with their current roster. Therefore:
    Change the roster, or;
    Change the philosophy…

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Well, part of being a hitting coach is guiding hitters through problems while helping them maintain. Murphy has maintained. You can credit some to Hudgins I think.

  • CJM

    My Duda love? Wait, Duda gets on base more, makes fewer outs, and hits for more power. Are those not good attributes?

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Because it’s Sandy’s philosophy, not his.

  • derek murphy

    Murphy is on pace 4 200 hits this year. Provided they get some consistancy in there line up he will start getting more runs scored n RBI.

    Duda is on pace for 125 hits he keeps moving down in the order 1/3 of his power production came in 1 game. Duda has double the amount of hitless games. Duda in the past month has 20 hits murph has 40.

    Murph has almost double the amount of extra base hits Duda does.

  • Mikey

    Who are you and what the hell have you done with Jessup?

    “It seems that the Mets are stuck on this idea of looking for that ONE pitch. But, here’s the problem. What if you miss that one pitch? Or what if that one pitch comes during the first pitch of the at bat and you watched it go by?”

    Isn’t that what the rest of us has been saying all along regarding this PATIENCE AT THE PLATE approach and over focus on PPPA this FO keeps using as the excuse for changing hitters?

    Lets take Tejada as an example. He was a Batter who had some very long ABs fouling off close pitches until he worked out a walk or got a mistake…
    His L/SO% has risen from 26.3% and 30% to 41 and currently stands at 38.1%
    A direct result from the over emphasis on WAITING for THE PITCH that may NEVER COME!

    What your saying here is that the PITCHER decides if your going to walk or not.
    And guess what he usually decides you won’t walk and RARELY decides to give you THE PITCH as well!

    It’s time this team was taught how to PROTECT THE PLATE WITH 2K on them…
    Foul of those pitches close enough to call and hope to see more pitches that way, tire out the Pitcher and hope he makes a mistake and WALKS you or throws you THE PITCH!

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    What agenda?

    Damaja just pointed out how Jessep RIPPED majority of us fans for doing/saying the same type of thing he is doing in this article.

    And he pointed out how somehow when Jessep decides to criticize the team Sandy is never mentioned.

    He calls out Hudgens for the hitting philosophy yet NOT Alderson who implemented it….Remember BPO???

    There is no agenda on my end. I know he is your friend/writer and you feel the need to defend him after he is called out. I could see if we were the only ones criticizing him, but we’re not. So I guess everyone has an agenda

  • derek murphy

    Murph is hitting circles around him. Murph is on pace for 200 hits. Duda is on pace for 125. Murph has almost double the amount of xtra base hits. Big deal Duda takes a lot of walks. He a 1b he’s supposed to hit the ball over the fence. When your second baseman has more extra base hits than your 1st baseman you either have a great 2nd baseman or a crappy first baseman. Nobody has ever confused Murphy with great. Duda goes up to the plate hoping to walk if he has to swing he does

  • dealingwithidiots

    So you guys did NOT actually read the article, but are quick to comment on the author? Wow, ignorance reaches new heights, congratulations.

  • When are we going to get past all of these same silly arguments and attacks though? When do we begin to elevate the level of discourse? Does every post by Jessep or Connor have to be met with the same people saying the same things over and over again? We’re going on years here. So he changes his mind on Hudgens who you and the others kill nightly, and rather than building on a new commonality, he gets blasted for changing his mind? When did having an open mind become such a laughing matter?

  • SCarton12

    The Marlins are a buzz saw at home, same with the Rockies and that’s where we played both them.

  • meetthemets26

    all this talk is bullshit, you want good hitting ???…go out and makes some trades for real players, this team just ain’t that good at hitting, the only reason the mets are 16-17 is because the pitching has been pretty damn good….who you fooling.

  • Out of place Mets fan

    That is comparing apples and oranges a #2 hitting 2B and the power hitting 1B….

  • CJM

    Except they are just hitters when they’re hitting. In this context, it is not apples to oranges. If you want to say Murph is better than his positional peers, while Duda is not, that’s one thing. But from a pure hitting perspective, Duda has been better than Murphy.

  • ed charles

    Specifically, can anyone here suggest a reasonable and achievable trade at the deadline or after the season. Name who goes and who Mets get.

  • Out of place Mets fan

    I don’t think Duda will ever touch .300 or drive in 100 from the meat of the order. Murphy is more likely to do both.

  • Out of place Mets fan

    Middle of the pack ranked 11 out of 13 in the NL and that is including Alonso who is hitting on the interstate with half the Mets

  • CJM

    Batting average and rbis are not the only metrics here. Duda has been one of their best hitters so far. That’s a fact. FWIW, although this is a small sample, Duda has absolutely raked with RISP this year, which is a knock people love to take against him.

  • SinHalo27

    Exactly- this team has shown a propensity more often than not to be anemic offensively. Since we cannot “fire” all the players (some actually have talent worth enjoying), the blame falls on the shoulders of those charged with instructing/teaching/refining their craft. That includes all if not most from TC on down. The same group of guys play 1 way for 1 MGR/Coach and another way for another. Some MGRs/Coaches are players’ MGRs/Coaches (Wally per se) and by that they’re for ALL the players- not just the vets or just the young guys (TC per se). The type of MGR/Coach that makes players want to run through walls for them- gets the best & most out of the team- that’s what you want to put out there for young guys (Murphy, Lagares, Flores, Gee, etc.) guys that were raised in the system and played for Wally and other MGRs/Coaches in the system.

    Bobby V. would have this group over .500 pretty well as he got the most from his guys night in and night out. No one takes a group with significant contributions from the likes of Zeile, Agbayani, Payton, Bell, Bordick to a World Series without getting them to buy in somehow. Sure they had Piazza, Fonzie, Ventura on the downside but at best they can only play 3 positions between them.

  • Out of place Mets fan

    Again one of their best hitters is not saying much…

  • CJM

    And that wasn’t my overall point.

  • LongTimeFan1

    It’s both theirs and is why Alderson hired him from their Oakland days.

    It is however a failed approach and these two imbeciles are too stubborn to admit it.

  • Andrew Herbst

    Our approach is the Moneyball philosophy. Work the count and draw walks. Getting on base is the main goal.

  • The Nihilist

    I get the commotion going on down below this post — its inconceivable that this is the same author who railed against Mets fans just last week — but that aside, it is a well reasoned, well written piece. The concern of mine is saying on one hand that this FO (now dubbed Cabinet of the Stupid) has done many good things, which seems to mitigate one very substantial wrong. The offensive numbers of the Mets the past 3-4 years are among the worst in the NL, and in the majors. The areas that should be vastly superior because of a ‘patient’ approach are the worst in the NL. This isn’t a minor problem.

    The stubborn arrogance of Alderson, and the hubris that is the result, are why the majority of Mets fans find him so despicable. Incidentally, Hudgens comes off like a buffoon — a yes man..

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    I think Hudgens is far more of a “yes man” than Collins is.

  • LongTimeFan1

    I totally disagree with the author on this:

    “The problem is you can’t change a hitter when they get to the big leagues.”

    That belief is career killer for the struggling, and one that sabotages ceiling for all level of talent and career arcs over time. Players, coaches and front offices who shun change, who think more of the same is the only option, or lack the foresight to recognize the need and lack the tools to implement, do so at their own peril and to that of team.

    The great hitters never stop learning, .understand that baseball is a game of adjustments, that baseball is a sport of failure even for the game’s greatest.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Youre skating the issue Joe.

    Did Jessup not write an article just DAYS ago blasting us Mets fans for complaining and giving our suggestions???

    YES HE DID. He said we should stop trying to fix the team and just watch, enjoy and cheer. And said we werent real fans

    My response to Jesseps article is the same as it would be for any other author here.

    Most of his posts are intended to draw criticism. And he receives it. Read the thread there are people who came from Metsblog that werent here years ago taking him to task for this article and the 1 he wrote the other day. Its not just me and damaja as youre aking it out to be.

    What you are doing is scapegoating me and damaja as if we are the only ones mentioning why he has NOT mentioned Sandy Alderson when referring to the failed cookie cutter hitting approach.

    What is BPO???And why wasnt it mentioned???

    It is one of the main components of the hitting approach in which ALDERSON IMPLEMENTED.

    And I rarely comment on Connors posts nowadays because they are always regarding SABR. And when I do comment I stick to the article nothing personal. Me saying he is a Sandy Lover isnt an attack its just short for saying he supports sandy no matter what.Same witth Sabr lover.Im called a Wilpon lover when I criticize Sandy and I dont take that as an attack.

    I get it he is your friend and when he posts he gets more negative responses than positive. Well thats not anyones fault but his own. He enjoyed when everyone got irate when he wrote the youre not a real mets fan post. Youre making it seem as if he threw us a bone taking Hudgens to task. NO, thats what Alderson supporters do blame everyone around him but never point out he is at fault.

  • EzRider

    Which lends itself to the question, are these guys actually paying attention? Have any of them learned from any of their ABs?

    If thats what other teams are doing then listen to the SA/Hudgens spiel and then go out and say screw it, jump that first pitch fastball and drive it someplace. It’s time for this team to start dictating at bats and how pitchers pitch them. Not being passive strikeout machines.

    I believe Bobby O has said it numerous times. This team needs to start looking to get base hits and not looking to take walks.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Actually your ignorance on the situation has you in the dark.

    The author wrote just 5 days ago an article titled, “Stop Trying to Fix the Mets”
    Read here:
    http://metsmerizedonline.com/2014/05/stop-trying-to-fix-the-mets.html/

    And in that article he took several writers like Rubin to task for adding in their 2 cents on what they think the Mets can/should do to improve the Team.

    Now today 5 days later I come upon this article and I read the title skim through and what do I see the same author is giving his 2cents and making suggestions on what the Mets should/can do to improve the Team. Its contradiction at its finest. He doesnt even state I was wrong for my last post.

    Its very condescending, the message he put out there is its not ok for others to give suggestions but i can because im smarter. lol

  • The Nihilist

    You’re right, but its a question of degree, not total perversion of one’s approach. Funny how you don’t see Granderson or C. Young going deep into counts. They flail away at will. Why? Because that’s the type of hitters they are. That they don’t fit into this GM’s concept of hitting is more a condemnation of them for not finding players who conform more naturally to this philosophy, than the hitters already established.

    I think the distinction is that hitters at this level constantly tweak, make minor adjustments. But most, if not all, hitters at this point are firmly established, entrenched in a way of hitting, and few, if any, ever change fundamentally. The time for that is much lower on the developmental food change. Pitchers change when they get hurt or old, and hitters change somewhat when they get older and bat speed becomes an issue.

    But they are what they are when they reach the majors. Just my opinion.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Yeah EYjr and his team leading strikeouts who barely got onbase…..BUT he stole a base

    EY couldnt tie CY’s shoes

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    I think it’s a combination of bad philosophy and bad players. I don’t think saying, “do whatever” would yield better results.

  • piazza4aday

    Maybe you are caught in the semantics of the article. Author suggests not to change entire philosophy as opposed to making adjustments when needed. Of course learning and adapting is critical in growth, changing your entire religion (hitting wise) may not be.

  • The Nihilist

    Very strange, indeed. At least the slightest acknowledgement of the seeming hypocrisy would have served him well. Yet the article, unlike the one last week, is well written and makes a reasonably good point. That he lays off of the architect of the disaster does indicate of certain fondness for Kool-aid.

  • Anthony

    Talent cures a lot of these hitting problems

  • LongTimeFan1

    Piaaza –

    I’m referring to individual players – mechanics and approach. A philosophy such as the author’s that purports stagnation and status quo once the player gets to the majors, is recipe for poor performance and stunted growth. Even Bryce Harper has altered his stance and acknowledges has tons of learning to do.

  • Mets Fan in NC

    Being passive or aggressive at the plate should depend on the pitcher and situation not a blanket philosophy. If Kershaw is pitching I get making him work, take some ball and get the pitch count up and get him to the showers as quick as you can. Allowing weak pitchers to get ahead in the count and gain confidence by taking meatballs down the middle is crazy….secondly if you are not Wade Boggs or Barry Bonds that had an established record of “having a good eye” by the umps…stop looking at strike 3 on the black. Mets hitters other than maybe Wright are not getting that call

  • Mets Fan in NC

    The ability to judge talent is the responsibility of coaches, scouts and FO. Mets love nice blue collar guys that cause no waves or ripples. In today’s ESPN age the real talent acts like Puig (not that that is right) and Mets don’t like that type of behavior. The 86 team was not a bunch of good guys. They were mean sons of a B that played baseball hard.

  • Mets Fan in NC

    To quote Reggie Jackson…this team needs the straw that stirs the drink.
    In little league coaches say a walk is as good as a hit….but usually that is said to kids that cant hit

  • derek murphy

    Yeah then how come yanks cant hit

  • LongTimeFan1

    Nih –

    I’m not concerned with deep counts, but rather, good mechanics, good approach. A lot of players self sabotage, keep repeating the same flawed approach, mechanics, stance, etc, that fail to accrue desired results.

    With respect to the players you mentioned, that’s who they are which is precisely my point. At some point, players and coaches have to recognize what isn’t working, and determine how to fix. The Mets are woefully inept in doing so.. All through major league history, the good hitters – the consistent performers, recognize when change is needed and do so. Late bloomers blossom when they embrace change, I can rattle off a whole bunch of names right there. Adjustment to changing circumstance, including age-related and improved competition, is important component to success.

  • The Nihilist

    The point is clearly directed at the FO’s systemic approach to hitting, which has failed miserably. NONE of the indicators that would prove it valid are evident after 3+ years. Everyone knows you have to adjust, mechanics can be tweaked, etc. So you believe that all hitters, regardless of style, can be conformed to this approach of hitting?

  • Mikey

    Well it became a laughing matter when before they changed their minds and started thinking WE were right they tried to dismiss what we said by saying WE were the Laughable ones….
    As they say…He who laughs last, laughs best…

    So we posters who have been saying these things for close to 4 years kind of sort of feel the need to remind those who tried to play us off as IGNORANT and not UNDERSTANDING of the way Baseball works, what we have been saying all along, now that they have come around and figured out 4 years later what we “IGNORANT” knew from Day ONE!

    We were played out to be Laughing Stock for not buying the PPPA Sabermetric Approach to hitting…
    Well seems like at least ONE of those folks is starting to realize and FINALLY understand the way Baseball works only 4 years later than the folks he used to dismiss and laugh at!

  • The Nihilist

    That’s not even remotely the point of the article, nor my reply. This one style fits all approach by this front office has proven to be an utter failure. A quick check at the numbers proves that. So it goes back to degree. Can you just cast any hitter into this Met’s philosophy and have them be successful? Its a failed approach, and the only reason it still stands is abject arrogance and hubris.

  • Andrew Herbst

    You’re right. We need to have a straw to stir up in this lineup.

  • derek murphy

    That’s not true. So many players get drafted with incredible bat speed breeze through minors n fall on there face in majors. Then there told to change approach shorten swing. Or maybe they got away with a hitch but its been exploited in majors. People change approach and swing plenty in the majors. Hitters are constantly changing in the majors

  • Just_Da_damaja

    So to what extent is Sandy Alderson responsible for this ?

  • Joey D.

    Hi NC,

    It’s not really a matter of taking pitches to get a starter like Kershaw out as early as possible by building up his pitch count for if he is throwing strikes and getting batters out, taking pitches instead of trying to attack a hittable pitch is not only going to curtail run production it will also mean he’s on top of his game. He would be hitting the corners one will be taking and knowing that on his part won’t result in many 2-2 or 3-2 counts as it will 1-1 or 1-2 counts instead.

    It’s going to be the pitcher who determines how much he is going to have to work and that is because of his control. Zack Wheeler doesn’t leave after six because batters are taking strikes. It’s because Zack is also throwing too many pitches outside the strike zone.

    The pitcher and batter circumstances dictates the approach. It’s what the batter observes about the way the pitcher has been throwing and his mindset.

  • NeedNewOwners

    Let’s please square up this Hudgens and the clowns who mandated this proven wrong system. Square them up right out of town. Addition by subtraction.

  • Ron T

    You made an accurate comment about the Marlins pitcher Tom Koehler. Don’t get me wrong, I am sick of the Mets and their weak offense also. But, did you know the Mets are the only team to score 4 runs against Koehler this year? Koehler is not that great…he is just on a hot streak. He beat the Nats twice, the Braves and the Dodgers. The highest run total he has given up was to the Mets in his appearance before his shutout.
    Secondly. just a little food for thought. I have never seen a MLB team look for offense to come from the SS position. History has shown that SS is the least productive position. Way back in the day Ed Brinkman played SS for the Senators I believe and he barely batted .200….every year! But he was an awesome fielder and played for years full seasons. My point is this. How crazy is it that the Mets are looking for offense from their SS position? I can’t stand Tejada, and I do like Flores. But this seems so ironic. The rest of the team absolutely sucks at getting on base and driving in runs. Murphy…..excluded. Wright is in a terrible slump. Other than that (yes, Lagares has alot of doubles)….we need more punch than Flores has. If anyone thinks this is the answer to the Mets problems, even anything close to an answer I feel sorry for Wilmer Flores for all the pressure he will have. Not only learning a new position, but realizing he had better hit or else!

    Just a few thoughts……LGM!!!

  • Ron T

    By the way, very good article and point on Hudgens coaching big leaguers. It should happen BEFORE they get to the show.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    And the 4 other scenarios don’t….

  • Nice post. However, on this day, I feel defeated. The Mets honor their company men. Hudgens is going nowhere because things have to improve right?? law of averages right??

  • ill_egl

    I couldnt agree more with this post. Ive been saying for the longest time that its nonsensical to think every hitter on a team will excel by sticking with one generic philosophy. Every player has his own strengths and weaknesses. Asking all of them to succeed at the big league level by playing out of their comfort zone at the plate is a sure fire formula for failure.

  • piazza4aday

    Alter-good. Transform-not so good(harper or any well hitting player. )
    MLB is a game of “adjustments”. Good hitters have any slight weaknesses exposed by great pitching (and video). Adjust/counter….never recreate or change philosophies.
    I understand you refer to individuals but hudge has a “universal” plan for everyone….or Sandy does. Only way to find out is to remove Hudge. Then we know who’s idea stinks.

  • Bail4Nails

    Huge Upvote. Please send this to the Mets Management, with Darling and Hernandez’ Auto-Signature. I’m sure the Majority of Fans will be happy to sign it too. Nice Job Jessep!

  • joeyd1966

    Couldn’t agree more. Just go back to Hudgens’ first year with the Mets in 2011 when we had more talent, we were 6th in the NL in runs, 2nd in OBP. This so called philosophy has worked extremely well for the Redsox and Yankees when they were piling up trophies. We need better hitters.

  • joeyd1966

    And Ted Williams was said to be a terrible hitting coach, go figure.

  • joeyd1966

    That’s because Duncan was a catcher.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    the silence is deafening @jessepmmo:disqus @metsmerizedonline:disqus

    @BadBadLeroyBrown:disqus – see what i mean …

  • Just_Da_damaja

    LMAO

    he’s WALKING better !

    and u know with these guys…

    walks are just as good as hits !

  • Just_Da_damaja

    ummm…so basically he walks alot and occasionally hits one out..

    nope, I’ll take the guy who HITS well over .300

  • mets4lyfe

    The Mets organization wide hitting approach obviously isn’t working at the MLB level.

  • corny12491

    I know it’s an obvious point, but I feel like it’s not discussed enough. Hasn’t it become plausible that pitchers just won’t even bother giving any Mets hitters that one pitch to hit? The Mets, like everything else, need to publicize what they are doing so the public knows all about it. Not like teams couldn’t catch on, but plainly spelling out your strategy to your opponent? Maybe Washington should have sent a messenger over to Trenton to let everyone know we were crossing the Delaware.

  • MetsMaastricht

    The Mets hitting problems can be summer up with three points in ascending order of least important to most:

    1) They’re not practicing correctly. Keith Hernandez and Gary Cohen spent 2 or 3 innings discussing batting practice during Wednesday’s game, and the take away point is that the Mets hitters are not doing what they’re supposed to do in BP. They need to try to hit line drives. If you do this during BP, you will do this during the game. Hitting line drives is particularly important due to the Mets home field. This is on the coaching staff.

    2) They don’t use the field to their advantage. Citi Field (and Marlins Park) are not bad hitters parks, they’re just different hitters parks. There is a huge amount of space on both fields. The Mets have to take advantage of the gigantic gaps at home. Essentially, with the Mets home field, you need bat control and speed. This is also on the coaching staff.

    3) The front office designed a team that gives away outs. Curtis Granderson at this rate with have 172 SOs. David Wright will have 162 SOs. Lucas Duda with have 137 SOs. So far in 1,118 ABs this season, the Mets as a team have struck out 291, that’s 26% of the time. They have played 33 games, at 9 innings/game (yes I realize some have gone extras, but that would a negligible change in total innings played), this means the Mets have played 297 innings. At a .26 strikeout rate, the Mets have failed to put the ball in play in 77 of these innings. You can’t score runs if you can’t even make contact. And this is on the front office. They should have realized that David Wright is a strikeout machine (although a great player), and surrounded him with good contact hitters. Put the ball in play and see what happens.

    As a final note, the ability of the Mets pitchers at the plate isn’t helping. They are giving away, for all intents and purposes, 3 outs per game with the terrible plate appearances the pitching staff have shown. That means they are ostensibly playing an 8 inning game. Mathematically speaking, other teams have abysmal plate appearances from pitchers, but this is above and beyond bad. As an opposing pitcher, one can basically rest assured the pitcher’s spot is as close to automatic as an out gets.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    lol

    thanks BBLB

  • jessepmmo

    Hi LongTime,

    My point was as I mentioned experience continue to educate hitters but having them get to the big leagues and forcefully change their hitting approach to fit some general model is unrealistic.

  • jessepmmo

    See, I disagree. I think it’s easy to say this is about walks because of a book….it’s about their idea that a hitters greatest chance to get a HIT is to wait for the perfect pitch to hit. They don’t want the walk at the expense of hit, they just prefer a walk to an out.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    From April 5th – April 29th

    EY’s OBP = .350
    EY stole 12 bases ( pace for 93 )
    EY scored 20 runs ( pace for 155 )

    and the mets were 13-8 in those 21 games…

    since being benched on April 30th, the mets have gone 1-7

    but im sure thats just a coincidence.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    soon find out?

    didnt his 2012-2013 seasons already tell us that?

    CY and Marlon Byrd are making almost the same amount of money this year…

    and the Phils can trade marlon in the off-season as a cheap 1 year rental to a contender should they decide to…

    maybe we’ll soon find out that Sandy isnt really a good GM

    o wait…

    most of us already knew that…

    You must be one of the kids that hopped on the slow bus

  • METS62FAN

    I STILL CONCLUDE THERE IS NO GREATER INEPT HITTING INSTRUCTOR IN BASEBALL AS DAVE HUDGENS,

    IMO WHAT RICK PETERSON [PHILOSOPHER] WAS TO PITCHING; HUDGENS IS TO HITTING. IT’S ALL BASED UPON STYLE POINTS WITH LITTLE REGARDS TO IMPERCEPTIBLE MECHANICAL ADJUSTMENTS. AS FAR AS I CAN TELL NO WHERE HAS HUDGENS EVER DISCOVERED SOME “IMPERCEPTIBLE ADJUSTMENT” IN MECHANICS THAT HAS SUDDENLY ALTERED A PLAYER’S SWING FROM CONTACT PRONE TO MISSING PRONE. MUCH IN THE WAY KEITH HERNANDEZ AS STRAWBERRY’S TEAMMATE DISCOVERED MUCH OF DARYL’S STUGGLES WERE CAUSED BY HIS ALLOWING HIS FRONT SHOULDER TO “FLY-OUT WHEN COMMENCING HIS SWING”

    THOSE AMONG US WHO EXPERIENCED THOSE EXCITING 80s GAMES SHOULD EASILY RECALL THE SHOTS TAKEN OF KEITH AS A BASERUNER CONTINUOUSLY REMINDING STRAW TO TUCK
    THAT SHOULDER. THAT’;S WHAT I MEAN BY A “MECHANICAL” ADJUSTMENT ITEM, I DO NOT BELIEVE HUDGENS IS EQUIPED TO IDENTYIFY. HE CERTAINLY APPEARS TO BE “ALL ABOUT” APPROACH & HIS PHILOSOPHY OF “HUNTING” SPECIFIC PITCHES TO HIT ONLY THERE APPEARS TO BE A “LOST IN TRANSLATION” ISSUE WITH THIS LINEUP THAT KEEPS FISHING
    @ BALLS OUT OF ZONE TO STRIKEOUT ALARMINGLY OFTEN DESPITE THE HUDGENS/ALDERSON/SABREMETRIC MANTRA THAT AN OUT IS AN OUT REGARDLESS OF “HOW”.

    WELL, THAT’S THE PROBLEM I SEE OCCURING AS SINCE HIS INITIAL HIRING AIMED @ INCREASING TEAM OBP HAS RESULTED IN AN ANNUAL DETERIORATION FROM IT’S ALL-TIME TEAM HIGH IN HIS 1st SEASON, ONCE HE RAN OUT OF “TRICKS”[REFER TO BUSINESS TERM OF “THE DEMING EFFECT” HUDGENS SEEMS TO HAVE BECOME MERE ‘BACKGROUND NOISE TO THE PLAYERS’ EARS.

    SOLUTION?

    AS I CONSIDER WHO MAY POSSIBLY STILL BE AVAILABLE AS A COACH WHO MIGHT SATISFY ALDERSON’S LUSTFUL CRAVING FOR OBP WHILE POSSESING THE ACTUAL EXPERIENCE LEVEL & ACCOMPLISHMENT PLATEAUS TO GARNER EVERYONE’S RESPECT, INCL THE VETS?

    MY SOLUTION WOULD BE APPROACHING BOBBY ABREU, NOW, IN THE TWILIGHT OF HIS CAREER WITH THE PROSPECT OF CONTUINUING HIS UNIFORM WEARING LIFE, FIRST AS A PLAYER-COACH[EARNING BOTH SALARIES SIMULTANEOUSLY] WHERE HE REMAINS AN ACTIVE PLAYER, WHOSE BAT IS AVAILABLE IN A ‘PINCH’; OFF THE BENCH AS WELL AS COACHING THE “TEAMMATES” NEEDING ASSISTANCE THEN SEAMLESSLY TRANSITIONING TO FULLTIME COACH/RETIRED PLAYER STATUS. PRECLUDING THE OTHERWISE TRADITIONAL NEED TO RETURN TO THE BUSTRIPS ALONG THE DUSTY ROADS COACHING THROUGHOUT THE BOONIES.

    WE’VE HAD A PLAYER-MANAGER [TORRE] WHY NOT A PLAYER-COACH? AS A HITTING COACH HIS RESPONSIBILITIES WOULD BE MUCH MORE EASILY JUGGLED WITH PLAYING HIMSELF.

    TRUTH IS THERE ARE PRODUCTIVE & NON-PRODUCTIVE OUTS & IN 95% OF OCCASIONS STRIKEOUTS IN GENERAL ARE NON-PRODUCTIVE BY NATURE. ANY ACTUAL BASEBALL EXPERIENCE GARNERING GRASS STAINS, NOT PAPERCUTS OR SPLINTERS WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT IMMEDIATELY AS A MIRAGE OF STASTISTICAL ANALYSIS.