Alderson Is Staying Afloat Thanks To Parting Gifts From Minaya

sandy alderson

In a critical rebuke of Sandy Alderson’s tenure with the Mets, Joel Sherman of the New York Post writes that Sandy was hired to clean up a so-called mess by his predecessor Omar Minaya and yet the team is now worse off than it ever was before. He says the best things about the current team are Daniel Murphy, Lucas Duda, Juan Lagares, Dillon Gee and Jon Niese – all of whom were drafted or signed internationally by Minaya.

He mentions several high upside players that were left to Sandy including Matt Harvey, Jenrry Mejia, Jeurys Familia who have already debuted and exhibited major league talent, and other promising players like Jacob deGrom and Steven Matz who are yet to come.

Sherman writes:

You can argue, the parting gift was leaving Carlos Beltran and R.A. Dickey behind so Alderson could trade for Zack Wheeler, Travis d’Arnaud and Noah Syndergaard. In other words, even what have been hailed as Alderson’s best moves, so far, have Minaya’s legacy as part of them.

To date no one from Alderson’s three drafts has reached the majors, he still has been unable to get a bullpen right and the two players he finally was able to spend on in free agency – Curtis Granderson and Bartolo Colon – have not distinguished themselves in the first five weeks of this season.

Sherman does say that this is not a final report card on Alderson, but that after 3 1/2 years he has to start showing some results borne out of his own drafting and developing.

He also takes a shot at the Mets ownership saying, “By the way, that fan loyalty oath about true New Yorkers, does it say anything about what the payroll of a true New York team should be?”

In the end – handcuffs or not — the GM is judged on major league results, says Sherman. Just ask Minaya.

Among his other points:

  • Alderson is yet to have a positive enough impact on the major league roster. He said 90 wins were possible and a target, but this is not 90-win talent.
  • Alderson has been building to track down the Braves and Nationals, but at this point the Marlins have done a better job rebuilding because it did two things the Mets didn’t – draft Jose Fernandez (the Mets took Brandon Nimmo) and trade Jose Reyes (though injury and ownership interjection could have been the issue there)?
  • Alderson’s belief in this sabermetric notion that a bullpen can be cobbled together on the cheap. But so far he has yet to deliver in this area and has used limited funds on failures such as Frank Francisco, Jon Rauch, Brandon Lyon, D.J. Carrasco and Ramon Ramirez.

You can read the entire article here.

You may recall that during the Spring I warned that this will be the year that Sandy will be on the hot seat, and that by and large he has gotten a free pass during his first three years because of financial constraints and a failed ownership.

That said, Sandy went into this offseason with three years of his own acquisitions under his belt and $50 million to spend this Winter. This team and their results are finally all on him.

I would expect to see more articles like this one as long as the Mets continue to flounder at or below .500 in a season where transformation was promised back in the fall of 2010.

It’s hard for me to be critical of Sandy or Omar with this current ownership in place. I have believed in both Omar’s and Sandy’s visions, but I feel that each of them were undermined in different ways by the Wilpons and were left out to hang unfairly.

Presented By Diehards

About Joe D 7840 Articles
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73, '00 and '15, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction and interact with other passionate Met fans like you. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    I think someone devaluing the Beltran and Dickey trades because those pieces were here before is like thanking the super market instead of the chef that makes your food.

  • Metropolitan

    Wow what can I say Sherman just said everything I have been saying about Sandy Alderson! Sandy Lovers are not going to lke this very much.

  • Well it’s a good thing Omar invested in bringing in quality produce and meats to the store so the chef’s meal comes out tasting better. Only so much a chef can do with sub-par ingredients.

  • goorru

    Well the chef’s food sucks.

  • Hodges14

    But but but… he lowered the payroll. That’s the most important thing… right?

  • Joey D.

    Hi Joe D.,
    What you wrote up is so much what I thought about regarding the point Gerry raised yesterday regarding the quiet and effective manner in which Gee and Niese are pitching that I am simply going to repeat what I wrote yesterday for those who might have missed it:
    Hi Gerry,
    I am not going to get this into an Omar versus Sandy debate as I would like to point out how Omar did not leave the Mets without a future so the rap against him pertaining to the farm system is unfair. It’s merely a question of how each general manager stands out on his own and the chapter on Omar is not yet closing just as the chapter on Sandy still has to be written.

    There might not even be a conflict in as much as the grey areas of 2011-2012 with what Omar left Sandy to work with and then what Sandy decided to do with them because the decision of what to do was already determined by the actions of Bud Selig.

    But getting back to the closing chapter on Omar, I am so glad you used the term “quietly effective” to describe the Gee/Niese tandem because one of the criticisms is they bankrupted the future by surrendering first round picks. Yes, they lost out on headline making players, but that did not mean they bankrupted the future.

    Besides Gee and Niese we have Harvey – who is a headline making player. That’s a top of a rotation any team would like to have. Until hurt, Parnell had developed into a “quietly effective” closer as well. Germen and Torres are showing signs of they can do their effective roles quietly as well. One could get petty with whom was responsible for Montero for we know the legal hangups that were hindering not the decision but the ability to sign him. Then there is still Mejia and Familia.

    Nobody has a crystal ball predicting what will happen with raw talent so of course Omar had a plan in place that was limited to his sense of the potential of these players – there was no “vision” that all this would simply fall into place and this has to be understood as being so with all general managers including Sandy. Looking back in hindsight and saying this or that should have been done or looking ahead and already assuming stardom is not representative of the circumstances general managers work under.

    What we do know is that the future of the Mets was not being ignored and that the farm system under Omar formed the nucleus of a fine pitching staff. He also gave us a gold glove center fielder in Lagares, an outfielder who was being converted to a second baseman under his watch in Murphy, one who looked like a fixture at first in Davis and at the time a decent hitting young catcher who did appear to lack defensive skills in Thole. Then there is Flores whom everybody wants called up as well.

    But what about subtle versus fanfare?

    Gee and Neise were brought up quietly because they did not have to be brought up with all the fanfare that the Mets needed to do with Wheeler, d’Arnaud, Thor, etc. That was because at that time the Mets were making enough fanfare on their own that they did not need to tout their minor league system like they have had to the past few seasons because they not only had nothing else going for them but that they also had to divert attention away from the Madoff situation – the only reason why the team had nothing going for them to begin with.

    The team was already going to be dismantled no matter how well it might find itself playing – that secret could no longer be hidden once word about that $25 million loan to avoid bankruptcy was leaked as spring training began and we learned how seriously the Wilpons were hurt by the Madoff scandal despite Sandy’s false assurances about not coming here to be like Oakland and being able to still work with a high budgeted payroll.

    So the big fanfare about “rebuilding” began not just to justify the trade of Beltran for Wheeler but to convince fans that the wildcard race they had been insisting the Mets had been in was never so to begin with and that money was not at the heart of the issue. And it continues to this day.

    That fanfare about the future drummed up to the level of intensity we’ve seen the past few years was not necessary under Omar and so what could be mistaken as bankrupting the future could simply be seen as a major publicity spin to divert attention from the fact that this organization could not retain and obtain players to be competitive during the present and had it done so there would have been a slow transition of young players replacing the older ones while hopefully still vying for the opportunity to play October baseball. After all, that is the way most other major league clubs do things – try to compete and build up the farm system at the same time.

  • Hodges14

    Trading major league allstar talent for minor leaguers can be looked at in more than one way.

  • agetting

    Used to think he was a good GM…now I’m thinking he’s a below average one. He’s really failed in his FA signings. Absolutely failed.

  • metsfan79

    Sandy alderson wasn’t brought here to build a winner. He was brought in to do what he did in oakland after the new owners took over save money and thats it. He’s not a baseball guy. He has zero feel for talent( is why theres 46 ex gms on his staff) . Once we all come to that realization maybe our outlook won’t be so bad.
    bad owners
    Non baseball gm
    Horrific manager
    terrible hitting philosophy
    And that sums uo your 2014 mets

  • Guest

    Sandy has been a miserable failure. .Mets had BLACK HOLES at SS, 1B and Bullpen and he DID NOTHING. Now, one month into the season they are BLEEDING TO DEATH at these positions. Sandy is a joke….Choosing Lucas Duda over Jose Abreu will be sandy’s ultimate calling card

  • Joey D.

    Hi Hodges,
    Yes, you are 100 percent correct because Sandy pointed out that it has been proven that “payroll concentration” is what leads to success, remember?

  • billpulsipher

    Marcum and Francisco and Colon failures?????

  • Hodges14

    Carrasco,

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Then let’s trade Wheeler and TDA and Syndergaard and move on.

  • agetting

    and signing Granderson and not signing Abreu

  • HawkZon

    Let’s not forget SA let Reyes go and two years later SA still has no plan for a lead off hitter or SS.

  • billpulsipher

    the Valverde signing was pure genius lol

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Let’s be real here. Dickey is probably one of the great “lucky” pick ups in baseball history. Hardly a “quality” ingredient at the time. If Syndergaard is what some believe him to be, it will be one of the great stories in baseball history.

  • HawkZon

    Even with 46 gms, they still can’t get it right.

  • Charley’s Twin

    as you’ve pointed out many times, that IS the most important thing in the post-Madoff reality. Sandy has even convinced some fans that they should cheer for the Wilpons as they save, save, save.

  • billpulsipher

    Tejada was his master plan for SS…thats all you need to know what a joke this clown is…moneyball groupie who never accomplished jack in his career except ride billy beane’s coat-tails and sign steroid users 100 years ago with the As

  • Hodges14

    That’s the single biggest f-up of Alderson’s time with the Mets.

  • Joey D.

    Hi Hodges,
    Yes. What were the reasons behind those moves? The motivations? Though I resented the treatment R.A. got at the end, I can understand the rationale behind the move considering the personnel makeup of the team. But with Beltran (and KRod before him)? We know the motivation had nothing to do with rebuilding anything more than Sterling Mets dwindling financial resources.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Really gotta put that on ownership to me. He traded Beltran. He traded Dickey off a Cy Young year. Really don’t think he didn’t want to trade Reyes if resigning him wasn’t his plan.

  • Hodges14

    We’ll never know.

  • RyanF55

    This is certainly true, but I think it’s just the timing of it. Omar’s guys are seeing their value now because they had time to develop. The verdict won’t be out on Sandy’s guys for years, like it took years to see Omar’s guys. It’s just timing. Sandy’s prospects need time to develop still. A GM comes in and drafts players, but it typically takes years before you see the success/failure of those moves.

    I do give Omar credit – a lot of the bright spots on the team right now are his work. Still, the only “Alderson”guys on the big league roster right now in terms of prospects are Wheeler/TDA. It remains to be seen how some of Sandy’s guys will pan out – Nimmo, Smith, Montero, Syndergaard, Wheeler etc.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Why should they have held onto Beltran? Zero benefit to the Mets to do so unless they planned to resign him, which they didn’t.

  • Hodges14

    Yeah but they lowered payroll. That’s what sports is all about.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Seems everyone around here is positive Sandy wanted to let Reyes walk away for absolutely nothing.

  • billpulsipher

    trying to think of sandy’s biggest F ups since he has been here. so many to choose from
    1) Not signing Jose Abreu and instead going with the useless duds known as ike davis/lucas duda
    2) the Reyes debacle
    3) the bullpen being the worst in the sport for 4 years running
    4) Not drafting Jose Fernandez
    5) sean marcum
    6) Frank Fatsisco
    7) Colon and Grandy
    all in all, Alderson is a failure

  • tacknaf

    You have to imagine, because of how it played out, that
    they were going to let him walk. If that’s the case you have to assume they would have traded him. But because he was hurt, they couldn’t.

    we’ll never really know. as much as I’d like to kill Sandy and/or ownership for it, their hands were pretty much tied.

  • Hodges14

    I still find it odd that although when Alderson got here the upper levels of the minor league system were the main problem with the farm he chose to select high school players who logically are going to take longer to get to the top levels.

  • Metropolitan

    Well Wheeler and TDA certainly look less than stellar to say the least .

  • Hodges14

    Why couldn’t they trade him? They just traded Ike Davis in April. Reyes wasn’t hurt in April or May or June of his last year with the Mets.

  • Sorry you can’t handle me blowing away your analogy. As for Dickey he worked out well just like Boof Bonser didn’t. Byrd worked out well just like Eamaus didn’t. Baseball is a crazy sport it is. The fact is it is true that Omar’s legacy good bad or indifferent is smeared all over the entire ML roster along with pieces ready to come up from AAA.

  • Joey D.

    Hi Charley,
    Some fans were convinced and we cannot hold that against them but what about those who heralded his moves and turned a blind eye to the economic realities because agenda and methodology were put ahead of the team?
    And then there are some who understand the economic realities and just accept them, knowing the Wilpons are not going to sell and thus this is what we are going to be stuck with, like it or not. Perhaps these are the ones most suited to be Met fans at this point because they are the ones who will not get ulcers nor be living in a fantasy world trying to prevent them from coming on.

  • billpulsipher

    you could have you know…like spent money and resigned him

  • Harry F

    So what exactly did Minaya build? He inherited the two core stars of the team, he got lucky that the Yankees didnt want Beltran in 2005, because Beltran told the Yanks he would play for them for 20 million less. He overpaid pedro for 1 season of pitching, and drafted the “core” of this 90 loss team, without drafting anything but Harvey in 7 years. If Neise and Gee continue to be good 3-5 starters, then I’ll give him credit for that too. Maybe it’s just ownership.

  • Hodges14

    or traded him to really rebuild.

  • tacknaf

    What if he didn’t think he was worth the contract? or what if ownership forbid him from spending that much?

  • CJM

    To diminish Alderson because he made good trades is pretty ridiculous–they were good trades nonetheless. But if you really want to go that road, fine. We will see Rafael Montero soon enough. All that being said, it’s really impossible to tell whether the Mets are better or worse off than when Minaya left, because Alderson has focused almost solely on the farm system. If it turns out that he developed a farm system that keeps the team in contention for a decade, then his job was done well. If the prospects in large part flop, and the team sucks going forward, then his job was done terribly.

    There is a clear difference in philosophies between Minaya and Alderson. One focused on trying to maintain the MLB roster through big money signings. The other has worked to build a farm system that can replenish the big league team from within. Alderson’s inarguable achievement is the farm system, which has risen to 8th in MLB according to Baseball Prospectus. We cannot properly judge Alderson’s tenure until we see the farm system flesh out in the Majors.

    Another important note is that, as we all know, Alderson was brought in, in part, to reduce payroll. That’s an unfortunate truth. And perhaps one of his greatest sins is remaining complicit in the lie that the Mets’ finances are fine. But any GM in that position would do the same.

    All that being said, there are things Sandy has done poorly thus far. The bullpen is at the top of the list. That is especially true when you consider the healthy contract he gave to the likes of Frank Francisco. The Pagan trade was a horrendous misstep–and another strike against Alderson’s bullpen because Ramon Ramirez was an absolute bust. Failing to trade Reyes was another mistake, although I believe the two draft picks he made with the Reyes picks were Plawecki and Reynolds, two promising prospects–that might end up being a wash if those prospects pan out.

    Overall, it’s simply too early to judge Alderson as Mets GM. Finally, the contention that he’s stayed afloat thanks to Minaya is wildly inaccurate to anyone who looks at it realistically, and what I’m about to write is not a defense of Alderson. But he has stayed afloat because he has reduced payroll, built the farm system, and answers to the Wilpons, not the fans.

  • Hodges14

    I’m not Minaya fan, never was, but you have to give him credit for signing Beltran. It’s probably the best free agent acquisition in franchise history.

  • Hodges14

    Then trade him to fill some of the other holes.

  • tacknaf

    How do you trade a speed/leadoff guy with a history of hamstring issues when he’s on the DL with a hamstring issue?

  • Charley’s Twin

    Angel pagan for Ramon Ramirez and Carlos Torres!

  • CJM

    Even if the upper levels were the issue, if his goal was to build the best farm system, bringing in college guys who might rise more quickly was not necessarily the right thing to do.

  • Hodges14

    There was no reason to wait until he was on the DL in July to trade him.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    So then let’s trade them.

  • Harry F

    I give him no credit, Beltran ASKED the Yankees to sign him for 20 million less, but they declined because they still had Bernie. He should get credit for being able to overpay a guy?

  • Metropolitan

    Montero is not really Alderson’s guy so stop

  • tacknaf

    Yeah but that’s when most trades happen. If not you’re dangling a guy that has a lot of value in May/June- other teams know that this means you’re not resigning him, and they can lowball you and wait you out. They have all the leverage.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Didn’t really blow it away. Someone Alderson taking advantage of Omar’s leftovers isn’t a knock against him. Maybe we should have let Beltran walk away for nothing and resigned the 41-year-old knuckleballer that hasn’t looked good at all since leaving.

    That would have been better.

    Omar was GM for six years. Hard to imagine there aren’t pieces of his legacy all over the place.

  • CJM

    Actually that was Minaya’s most brilliant signing. He had tried and failed to sign Dickey twice before finally landing him in 2010. Minaya saw the potential in Dickey and coveted him. Minaya’s eye for talent is pretty undeniable.

  • Hodges14

    28 other teams wanted Beltran that year and the Mets got him. Give credit where it’s due. Pedro I agree, total waste of cash but Beltran was a great signing.

  • FL Met Fan Rich

    To early to tell

  • CJM

    How is he not Alderson’s guy?

  • goorru

    So when Alderson had money to spend he “OVERPAYS” Granderson, Chris Young and Colon.

  • Joey D.

    Hi Bill,
    Sandy’s biggest F-up came on his first day on the job when being introduced to the media he immediately began carrying out his plan to intentionally mislead everybody about the financial health of the team and emphasize that New York “wasn’t” Oakland.

  • rubagreta

    Very unfair article. Come back in three years when we know how Brown, Cecchinni, and the guy from Wyoming have done.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Omar had his misses as well. To me, Dickey was total luck. A risk-less gamble that paid off.

  • Hodges14

    They just traded Ike Davis in April. Probably the best trade they ever made was in May 1998 when they got Piazza. There was no reason to wait until July.

  • Harry F

    bit different type of player, beltran was in the tanaka/choo category. Mets dont have the checkbook for real free agents still

  • CJM

    The fact that Minaya wanted Dickey for a couple years before finally landing him points to it not being luck.

  • Harry F

    I’ll give him mitigated credit. Can’t just ignore that yankee tidbit

  • RyanF55

    Alderson acquired him…he’s Alderson’s guy?

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    I think the Wilpons wanted the tickets sold and had no intention of resigning him and wouldn’t let Sandy trade him either.

    That makes more sense to me than Sandy was fine with letting him walk for nothing.

  • agetting

    He’s done a good job rebuilding the farm for sure…he’s done a terrible job singing free agents and restructuring the roster at the major league level. If anything its a wash and he’s been an average GM. He had a chance to do some big things here this past off season and he’s pretty much signed the worst possible guys out there one month into the season

  • Andrew Herbst

    The jury is still out on Sandy’s draft picks.

  • agetting

    he just thinks because he’s Latin that Minaya had to have drafted him

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    All this is true. But let’s also focus on how guys like Ike, Duda, Tejada are all Omar guys and not only are they all pretty much useless, but Omar left absolutely no suitable replacements or depth at those positions.

    Sandy has failed to replace them, but Omar didn’t exactly leave him diamonds. Guys like Harvey, Murphy and Lagares are more like a rare peanuts in the turd.

  • CJM

    If anything it’s a wash, you say. Perhaps that is the situation right now. But if it turns out that the farm system he’s built ends up helping the team for years and years down the road–a farm system like St. Louis, perhaps–then his tenure becomes a success.

  • HillsideAve

    I wonder how Sandy’s employers would grade his performance? Since they are still the owners, I would guess that he gets an A+. That is the reason he was hired.

  • sperry

    And he signed Ollie, Castillo, Bay…

    It’s almost like all GMs have good and bad decisions! Crazy isn’t it.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Castillo? Ollie? Bay? Oh no, those don’t count. Omar built a mansion and Sandy just moved in.

  • Harry F

    his owners didnt hire him though, was all MLB

  • Joey D.

    Hi Metsfan79,
    But please be careful, my friend. By stating the obvious you could wind up alongside me being called a pathetic individual who doesn’t know a thing about baseball and is simply trying to ruin the reputation of a fine human being and needs to get a life. 🙂

  • RyanF55

    Is it an owner-driven reduction of payroll, or Alderon’s own decision. That’s what’s important.

  • Joey D.

    Hi Hodges,
    He would have gone even lower if it wasn’t for us fans applying so much pressure for him to spend some money.

  • Hodges14

    Bottom line is neither did a great job. W/L record shows Minaya did better but given the resources at his disposal he should have won more.

  • agetting

    That’s fine, but he played this offseason horribly. He was so overly conservative to the point that he made some horrendous decisions. He decided to play it safe and sign Granderson at 15 million per for 4 years rather than take a completely reasonable gamble with SIGNIFICANT upside in Abreu who is in his PRIME at 6 years 64 million. We’re close to last in the league in offensive production and Abreu leads the majors in homers and RBIs. What a waste of money. Absolute waste.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Sssssh. That’s not important either. Let’s not forget two of the greatest collapses in baseball history happened under Omar.

  • El_Verdadero_Presidente

    I wouldn’t be too quick to dismiss Pedro’s stay here as a total waste. That first year he was terrific – .949 WHIP, 208 K’s, 6.6 H/9, etc. He wasn’t worth it the last two years, but in 2005, especially, he absolutely transformed the energy around this team.

  • MDonaldWilpon

    I think ownership would not have let him trade Reyes because of the whole batting championship angle, but remember that he did get hurt on July 2 and was out for 3 weeks.

  • Joey D.

    Hi TGWLC,

    Zero benefit? Perhaps not throwing the team under the bus when it had a realistic chance at the wildcard and showing it support would have been of much more benefit than they imagined.

    Look at all the ill-will most of the fans have toward the organization now. You don’t think that in hindsight the front office and ownership wishes the financial situation had been different where they could have held onto KRod and Beltran, showed they supported their players and gave the fans something to hope for considering all that they have lost in return? That all that lost good-will by not giving a damn about the team surprising all the baseball world – which translates into dollars and cents – would have been worth the $17 million vesting option to KRod and not having Zach Wheeler?

  • Hodges14

    I think at 4 years into the Alderson era most people look back at the collapses as the good old days.

  • agetting

    We know he had X amount of money because he spent it on Granderson and Colon…

  • Brian D.

    If you want to factor in “luck”, then don’t you have to bring up bad luck too?

    What about Jason Bay completely falling apart after a 36 HR season? No one saw that coming either.

    Yes, nobody predicted Dickey’s breakthrough, and maybe that was lucky. But so many things broke wrong for us during the Omar era too. It was about time we got a lucky break – We were due.

  • CJM

    It’s way too early to call it a waste of money. Sure, 5 weeks into the season, it looks pretty bad. But if Granderson ends up panning and is worth even close to his contract, that would turn into a good signing. If Abreu ends up busting–maybe the league figures him out or something–the non-signing becomes good. Not saying either of those two things will happen, but still too early to tell with any signing from the 13-14 off season.

  • RyanF55

    It’s also worth noting that Minaya, from 2004-2010 had payrolls of:

    100 million
    104 million
    101 million
    115 million
    137 million
    135 million
    132 million
    http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm

    …I think he had more resources when he was GM.

  • Hodges14

    They signed him knowing he had a tear in his shoulder. It was a bad deal for the Mets. When they needed him most he was no where to be found.

  • RyanF55

    Bud Selig hired Sandy…the Wilpons were lucky they were allowed to retain ownership.

  • CJM

    Let’s also remember a key part of Minaya’s philosophy. He justified sacrificing draft picks for big signings like Beltran and Pedro because he believed it would give the team a boost with Latin American signings. I’d be curious for someone to do a breakdown of who Minaya signed from Latin America thereafter. I believe Flores was his biggest prize but am admittedly not sure.

  • RyanF55

    It’s May…saying either is a flop is shortsided.

  • Mike

    I keep hearing how the trades Sandy made are thanx to Omar, give me a break! Like Omar was thinking when he scraped RA dickey off the scrap heap, “ok im gonna trade this guy in three yrs for a young power arm and a c”. Or Beltran, “In six and a half yrs I’m going to trade him to the giants for a hard throwing guy in A ball!” There are so many sandy haters out there who just refuse to credit him for anything

  • $14435385

    I just don’t get why it’s either/or, all good / all bad with these two. Each has his strengths and weaknesses; you can’t really compare them because the circumstances under which each has operated have been dramatically different. The bottom line is neither could push the team over the top because of the one common denominator they share: bad owners who don’t really give a crap about winning. A fish rots from the head; this one’s been rotting since they took over in 2002.

  • TPT

    hey Joe D great article one other point that wasnt mentioned …OMAR MINAYA WAS ALSO RESPONSIBLE FOR BRINGING IN 4 MILLION FANS TO SHEA IN A SEASON.. so you all can read into that what you please but to me..the fans loved those days they loved rooting for a big Market team they loved it when DW was the 4th best player on the team and if we ever get a owner who has money and spends again not one person will complain or stay on board with this 5 year plan that never ends …we forget its a entertainment industry..give us stars and we will come

  • agetting

    It is still very early yes but Granderson is not what this team needs. He’s a high strike out, low BA power hitter. He absolutely does not have a power hitter prototypical body. He’s a slender guy that will not hit a lot of homers at Citi Field. THE ONLY reason this signing made any sense was his ability to play a good LF behind a team built around pitching and defense. The team needed a slugger more than anything though as well as some excitement. How boring is it to watch these games when they can’t score a run in 23 innings? The Abreu signing would have put more fans in the seats and generated more profits with the homers and extra base hits. Yes it is too early to tell…btu when you have 35 RBIs and 12 homers one month into the season it looks pretty optimistic you will see 25-30 homers and 100RBI regardless of the league figuring him out

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    The story goes that Minaya scouted him and left the paper work to sign him on Sandy’s desk for when he got there, so to speak. All Sandy had to do was say yes.

  • RyanF55

    Wasn’t aware of that. Is it true?

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Fine, but that’s baseball. It’s a choice. You either keep Beltran, hope you win and try to resign him and risk losing him. Or you flip him for talent.

    That’s how the sport is.

  • RyanF55

    Well said

  • agetting

    I think its completely fair to make an assessment at this point.

  • RyanF55

    Do you want entertaining guys who don’t win anything or a winning club though? I don’t care who shows up the ballpark, I care if the team’s playing well.Obviously it hasn’t yet under Alderson, but I don’t need media driven stars to sell tickets. I need a team that wins. I actually like it better when fans stay away so I can take a piss with no line and grab a beer with no wait. The bandwagoners can stay away for all I care haha

  • seldomused

    Devil’s Advocate time!

    1) Only 2-3 teams were seriously interested in Abreu.
    2) I’ll give you this one, he messed up with Reyes.
    3) I’ll give you this one too.
    4) 13 other teams passed on Jose Fernandez and no one could have predicted this type of success at age 21.
    5) Sean Marcum was a 1M flier that failed. He was a low risk signing that didn’t pay off. TONS of other teams do this on a yearly basis, and fail.
    6) Agree with you here, Frank was a huge mistake from day 1.
    7) We’re 5 weeks into a very long season. Give this one time.

  • RyanF55

    A month in? I’m glad you’re not running things.

  • Not4

    Wow. Sherman sounds like a clueless fan and not someone who has covered baseball. “To date no one from Alderson’s three drafts has reached the majors,” Classic!

  • agetting

    the Granderson signing was a head scratcher

  • Avery Decker

    I’m not necessarily the biggest Alderson fan, but I have to defend him to a point. He did make the Dickey/Beltran trades. Yes Minaya brought them to NY to begin with, but you can’t credit him with helping the Mets make those trades. Also, Minaya had a much larger payroll to work with and used it to sign the likes of Delgado, Beltran and LoDuca, 3 solid hitters that helped the mets in 2006 reach the playoffs. Alderson didn’t have that kind of payroll to work with. The bullpen is an issue that I do pin in Alderson, but at the same time, I feel as if relief pitchers are a toss up every year. Look at guys like K-Rod, Gagne, Broxton, Jim Johnson, guys that have been up and down thus far. I’m not the biggest fan of dishing out a ton of money for these types of guys.

  • agetting

    he hit .222 over the last 2 seasons and is off to a .175 start 35 games into the season…yeah he might get hot but even if he does its not looking too good we’re going to see him finish the season over .230…

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    I don’t know. That’s the story. I don’t think there was literally paperwork waiting for Sandy on day one, haha, but it is true that Minaya was scouting Montero prior to his departure. Stands to reason the info was waiting for Sandy.

  • seldomused

    Sandy has definitely not been a success, but Sherman needs to be careful not to put Manaya on a pedestal. Contracts to Jason Bay, Castillo, Oliver Perez, hiring Tony Berazard, firing Randolph at 2am in Anaheim, trading Heath Bell and then Matt Lindstrom for almost nothing, trading Brian Bannister for Amroix Burgos, acquiring JJ Putz were all boneheaded moves that hurt the Mets.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Gasp. You mean they each have huge failures in their respective ledgers. I had no idea!

  • depressed Mets fan

    Omar was an illiterate scout in way over his head. Sandy is a snake oil salesmen that doesn’t give a crap.

  • billpulsipher

    what winning club? …sandys mets are a boring losing club

  • Matlack

    The last paragraph is the most salient.

  • CJM

    Well if we cannot give Alderson credit for signing Montero then we must immediately rescind credit from Minaya for signing Beltran. Beltran was already a proven stud! How easy a signing it was.

  • seldomused

    Omar built a mansion that was held together by scotch tape and silly putty. By the time Sandy moved in, it was an outhouse filled with fossils.

    Those 3 signings definitely count. Do you realize how much money Manaya locked up in those 3 bums? I get that Sandy hasn’t been a great GM, but Manaya absolutely crippled this team financially. Don’t forget about the Putz trade, dumping Heath Bell, Matt Lindstrom, Brian Bannister. All of these moves hurt the Mets.

  • Metropolitan

    CJM you are a true blue Sandy lover…hahaha

  • billpulsipher

    the Marlins front office rebuilt in a year what sandy has failed to do in 4….any scout would say the marlins are just as far along as the mets, if not farther along

  • seldomused

    Really? If I remember correctly during the collapses people were calling for everyone’s head.

  • CJM

    That’s patently false. If you read my post right above, you will see as much.

  • agetting

    If I was running things we’d have Jose Abreu slugging HRs at first base right now and our team would have a better record than we do now…

  • goorru

    Omar is Dominican whereas english is his second language that’s why he had a little trouble speaking, Alderson is an ivy league graduate who lies through his teeth that’s why he has trouble speaking.

  • Destry

    Yes they did

  • DrDooby

    By the way, here’s an interesting read from a Houston Astros blog, where frustration about the lack of instant success in a rebuild from ground up is mounting.

    But that happens to be the nature of rebuilding from ground up. Sorry Atros fans, sorry Mets fans, sorry Cubs fans. Of course, the Mets are furthest aheadof these three. Which they should be considering Alderson is ahead one year of Luhnow (HOU) and Epstein /Hoyer (Cubs).

    Sherman is correct that Alderson’s contribution to winning at the major league level has been marginal at best. From 2011 to 2013 he focused on restocking the system, getting finances under control and filling holes with cheap crap. 2014 is his first season “on the spot”. With a bottom 10 payroll team nonetheless but with spending restrictions a lot less than they used to.
    Granderson, Colon, C.Young, d’ Arnaud and Wheeler are his first set of key players. Several more are in the pipeline and will determine a lot about the Mets future the next 5+ years.

    And Sherman is correct that Minaya procured key pieces on the 2014 team – and actually most of the more productive pieces on the 2014 team: Gee, Niese, Mejia, Familia, Lagares, Murphy and Duda most notably. What do these 7 have in common by the way ? All of them were drafted or signed between 2005 and 2007. And Mejia, Familia, Lagares and Flores have yet to complete their 1st major league season.

    Building from within takes time. But this team is 100 % on Alderson. And there better be progress in 2014. Not necessarily the ambitious 90-win goal but rather a .500+ season as a stepping stone to a more realistic 90-win season in 2015. Because of BOTH players procured by Minaya and Alderson. And by 2018, Alderson’s successor will hopefully be successful relying mainly on players drafted / signed and developed under Alderson’s watch.

  • CJM

    In Dickey’s book he writes that Minaya tried to sign him in ’08 and ’09 before finally landing him in ’10. If he really only saw Dickey as a coach, would he pursue him that hard? FWIW I think Dickey could become a great pitching coach if he wanted to go that route when he’s done playing.

  • DrDooby
  • YouBHatin

    And I will remind YOU that IFAS signed in 2009 would begin arriving sometime around 2016 or the year after. The 2007 class is arriving (Puello, Mejia and Flores). Lagares is from the 2006 class.

    If the hasbeen we have in office right now had signed some decent free agents, or kept Jose Reyes, this team might have made it to .500 the last few seasons. Sadly, he’s washed up and things aren’t working out

    #BringBackOmar

  • DrDooby

    Both Omar & Sandy have been doing their job – under very different circumstances and with very different short term goals.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Kinda hard to include Santana in there since there isnt a person with any baseball sense who wouldnt agree the Santana deal was a good one at the time. The trade was a total win in what the Mets gave up and the money was what is required to get a top 3 pitcher in the baseball to sign.

  • goorru

    The Marlins are ahead of the Mets.

  • Destry

    The trade was. The contract was not.

  • Chuck

    No, he thinks that because (so I’ve heard) Omar’s team was already scouting Montero and interested in signing him. So because SA recognized that what Minaya was planning was good and followed through on that, SA can’t get any credit. Here’s my take: SA has built up the farm system, signing Omar’s interest Montero when that made sense, acquiring good prospects for major league talent supplied by Omar, and drafting some high upside young players (who thus take longer to reach the majors). And he has NOT depleted the farm through bad trades to get stop gap or average MLB players. So he has kept what was good of Omar’s, and traded what he could (and yes, he should have traded Jose as well, and he should never have traded Pagan, at least not for what he got — nothing). Add in that he did all this while the owners had his hands tied. Yes, he should have signed Jose Abreu, but so should have Pittsburgh and all the other teams that could use a run producing 1B. He’s not alone in missing out on that. And let’s see where Abreu is at in two years. Anyone remember Ron Swoboda had around 15 HRs by the All Star break his rookie season? He hit 4 more the rest of the year, the last on August 26th. Abreu may be strong and hit the ball hard, square, and far — but if he does have significant weaknesses, the other teams will figure him out. He’s a “keep on proving it” guy. If he does, good for CWS, shame on the rest of us.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Not a question, but this whole things makes it sound like Omar built this juggernaut and Sandy had it easy.

  • Tom

    I think pitching coaches are extremely valuable, but theres quotes all over by Minaya saying he had no clue Dickey would take off like that. He only made the AAA roster because of injury, then made the MLB team because of Injury. Obviously we only have quotes and accounts and true intentions who knows, but maybe he didn’t sign with us in 08 or 09 because he knew we wanted him as a coach and he had a better shot of pitching with other teams.

  • CJM

    Perhaps. Why the hell would Minaya downplay that though?! If I were Omar, I’d say hell yeah I knew what this guy had in him.

  • Nolrog

    You can’t think that Minaya pegged Dickey as a Cy Young winner though. That was a lot of luck.

  • Nolrog

    That would make a good package for a big time bat.

  • YouBHatin

    Classic when Ba1derson had a chance to draft two can’t miss, fast track pitchers in Wacha and Fernandez….He ended up drafting two potential hot dog vendors instead..

    #Brilliance

  • CJM

    To the people who refer to him as “Ba1derson”: Do you really think it is in any way an insult to acknowledge that a 66 year old man is balding? Haha. It just diminishes your credibility, really.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Yeah, so let’s bring back Omar. The guy who gave out contracts to guys like Castillo and Perez and Bay, hiring Tony Berazard, firing Randolph at 2am in Anaheim, trading Heath Bell and then Matt Lindstrom for almost nothing, trading Brian Bannister for Amroix Burgos, acquiring JJ Putz. He also had two of the biggest collapses in baseball history, arguably the beginning of all the Mets problems, happen under his watch.

    But year, #BringBackOmar.

    They both suck.

  • CJM

    Shoot me an email–it’s attached to my Disqus account. I’ll bet you $50 on it.

  • Tom

    I don’t think Omar was very tactful in that regard, but he really should have he basically won the lottery.

  • TPT

    Pedro Martínez and outfielder Carlos Beltrán closer Billy Wagner, first baseman Carlos Delgado catcher Paul Lo Duca. outfielder Endy Chávez the Mets improved from 71 wins in 2004 to 83 wins in 2005, staying in the hunt for the postseason until the last week of the season In 2006 as the Mets won the National League East by 12 games, finishing first with a National-League-best and Major League-tied 97 wins . you kinda left these very small tidbits out of your comment lol

  • goorru

    I know this keeps going back to the same issue but ultimately it’s the Wilpon’s who are responsible the mess the organization is in.

  • Harry F

    If that’s completely true, then I’ll stand corrected. That could also be Mets spin as well, so we’ll never know for sure.

  • RyanF55

    Omar won a division title. So, in 7 years, he brought us 1 division title. Sandy has given us 3 losing seasons, granted. Let’s see how Sandy’s tenure looks after 7 seasons. You need to show a level of patience and you also need to put things in context. The prospects Sandy’s brought in need to develop, and the financial climate he has to deal with is COMPLETELY different than what Omar had. If Syndergaard/Montero/TDA/Nimmo/Smith all suck in 6-7 years, then you’re right.

  • Destry

    Ahmed Rosario was the best IFA on the market last year. Scouts are raving about him, and Minaya had nothing to do with that.

  • You’re right and I’ve been trying to figure out why fans are so divisive with Sandy and Omar, especially when either of their shortcomings were attributable to the owners and restrictions placed on them.

  • MetsFanSantaMonica

    I’m of the camp that doesn’t feel the need to be either a sandy lover/omar hater or sandy hater/omar lover. I root for the Mets, period. As others have said, they both operated under different circumstance. Omar oversaw a period of incredible enjoyment and talent – that ended in some of the worst heartbreak I’ve ever felt as far as watching this team goes. And his plan, when it didn’t work out, left us in an untenable situation with inflated contracts and little roster flexibility, with a barren farm. Sandy has rebuilt the farm, and it may start to show dividends this year and next, but it’s all still a crap shoot at this point, and his positive influence over the current major league club has been poor. Whether that’s because financial constraints placed by the owners or not – he’s the man responsible for the roster. If in two years there’s a new general manager winning with a lot of the prospects developed under Sandy, that new GM will get the credit. Baseball is a lot more complex and a lot less black and white than most posters here are willing (able?) to believe.

  • Mike

    Yeah he was the first person cut out of spring training that doesn’t scream to me that Omar foretold he was going to win a Cy young award down the rd. These reporters love to reshape things.

  • CJM

    Sorry. Can’t give Omar credit for Delgado. That is Steve Phillips’ guy because Minaya traded Mike Jacobs for Delgado.

  • MetsFanSantaMonica

    should have said – “managing a baseball roster” is a lot more complex, etc…

  • RyanF55

    What does that have to do with evaluating Granderson/Colon too early? Because, it’s too early. Think of Buck last year…tremendous start, horrible finish. These guys could be the reverse.

  • RyanF55

    I can’t even read this

  • DrDooby

    And how many players other than Jose Fernandez were brought in via drafts from 2011 through 2013 ?

    The Marlins young pitching is more advanced than the Mets pitching. Except for LH Andrew Heaney, it is there. Their window is open NOW. Giancarlo Stanton will be a free agent after the 2016 season, so these are his final 3 years as a Marlin. Sandy Alderson didn’t inherit a budding young superstar at 500 k, of course – other than Jordany Valdespin, of course, who he promptly ruined with his hitting approach.

    The Marlins will be back into their rebuilding cycle after the 2016 season. Because there is no way they’ll be able to pay 45+ million $ alone in 2017 for the combo of Stanton & Fernandez (who will be in his 3rd year of arbitration for the 2017 season and form a nice free agent class after the 2018 season with Matt Harvey). Let alone what Yelich, Ozuna, Eovaldi,Alvarez and others on the current team will be making in their arbitration years. The fire sale figures to be in full swing and probably set up the Marlins for another run in 2020…

  • I actually put that word in our ban filter two days ago. Tired of seeing such pre-kindergarten reactions to serious adult conversation.

  • RyanF55

    He obviously doesn’t

  • Charley’s Twin

    ha!

  • DrDooby

    They have won 2 more WS than the Mets over the past 20 years while spending about half the money…

  • CJM

    I just saw that because in my original comment, I couldn’t use the L. I don’t mind it. I think it’s funny BECAUSE it’s juvenile. It also doesn’t make sense. Him being bald has nothing to do with him as a GM. If I were bashing him, I’d go with Shady Sandy or something of that nature.

  • $14435385

    I think there’s a relatively ugly reason why that’s true with some people, Joe…unfortunately….

  • RyanF55

    When people aren’t intelligent enough to analyze a situation, they make those kind of comments. I personally hate when people attack Alderson’s character….say what you want about him as a GM, but keep it in bounds. The guys a Harvard grad, a marine and a veteran that’s served this country. He’s a decent guy…if you disagree with his approach so be it, but let’s act like adults

  • DrDooby

    And it’s tough giving Omar credit for Wheeler, Syndergaard and d’Arnaud as Sherman seems to be implying as Beltran and Dickey could have departed as free agents without compensation or could have been turned into JP Arencibia, Anthony Gose and Gary Brown in perfectly fair trades at the time.

    I suppose Nimmo would be credited to Omar if he does well as Omar also left behind the # 13 overall pick in the 2011 June draft.

    Omar deserves credit for the fun 2005 through late 2007 seasons and his legacy may well be Niese, Gee, Mejia, DeGrom, Familia, Lagares, Flores, Murphy and Matz as a parting gift. In between, his major league roster derailed. And both Madoff and a talent gap in the system contributed besides poor decisions.

    Whether Alderson deserves credit for more than getting finances in order remains to be seen. But we won’t fully know for the next 5 years until a true evaluation can be made.

  • ColoradoMetsFan

    Gotta say the Omar comment crosses over…

  • RyanF55

    On May 9th

  • CJM

    People hate that he’s complicit in the lie that the team is fine financially. But what choice does he have? It’s not really a good idea to come out and say the team cannot afford to spend any real money.

  • Charley’s Twin

    loads of thinly-veiled antisemitic remarks around here too.

  • AJF

    Sure ! I mean it can happen within the next 10 yrs but why not lets put 50 bucks on it now

  • CJM

    Or worse, Alderson could’ve failed to pull the trigger at all on the Dickey deal, as many fans wanted. Then Dickey would’ve regressed, as he was bound to do, and been worth maybe 50% of what they got for him.

  • goorru

    No in young talent too. The Mets don’t have young position players like the Marlins. I really wasn’t referring to the standings.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Relax. It was a joke.

  • agetting

    John Buck is somewhat irrelevant because he’s a career 215 hitter that was overperforming…

  • CJM

    There’s a greater chance that neither wins a WS in the next 25 years than that either does. Even once a team makes the playoffs, their chance of winning it all is only roughly 12.5%.

  • TPT

    SORRY BUT YOUR WRONG CJM ..The Mets pressured Delgado to sign with them, which might have been a mistake. General manager Omar Minaya set a deadline for Delgado, telling Sloane that they had to make a decision by Sunday night, Jan. 23. Sloane asked the Mets to reconsider, but they refused. Delgado felt that he was being backed into a corner. The Mets were out of it.
    Strangely, it was supposed that Delgado really wanted to sign with New York’s other team, the New York Yankees, who had an albatross around their neck in the person of steroid abuse Jason Giambi. When the Yankees decided to keep Giambi, there was no chance that they would improve their team by signing Delgado.On Jan. 26, Carlos Delgado signed a four-year, $52 million contract with the Marlins. He had a great season in Miami, batting .301 with 33 home runs and 115 RBIs. The Marlins finished tied with Mets for third place. Each team won 83 games.
    After the 2005 season, the Marlins held one of their “firesales.” The Mets took full advantage of the situation by sending three nondescript players (Grant Psomas, Mike Jacobs and Yusmeiro Petit) to Florida in exchange for Delgado. It was robbery in broad daylight.

  • Charley’s Twin

    I wonder what he meant by that?

  • seldomused

    You missed my point. My comment was strictly around showing that Omar wasn’t perfect and should be held accountable for his mess ups as well. We all know the players that Manaya brought to the team.

    Oh, and Endy Chavez was a lucky break for the team the same way that Marlon Byrd was a lucky break for Sandy last season.

  • ColoradoMetsFan

    Nothing good, I suspect…

  • CJM

    Yes, but don’t you see, the key cog to that trade was Mike Jacobs–Steve Phillips drafted Jacobs in ’99! So we cannot give Minaya credit for trading a player that was another GM’s.

  • seldomused

    Sorry, I forgot that this wasn’t Metsblog 😀

  • omar minayass

    when your payroll sits at 86 million in the new york market, those comments are inevitable.

  • Minaya also gave us Ollie Perez for 3yrs/36M, Luis Castillo at 4 yrs/24M, Julio Franco with a 2 yr contract at the age of 47, Moises Alou at over 7M, Guillermo Mota for 2 yrs/5M (post-steroids), let Bradford walk, and much more. We can list many fails for both of these guys or, if someone is enamored with one, they can probably manipulate an argument. I didn’t like either, but that’s just me.

  • Charley’s Twin

    hey man, I hate the Wilpons as much as anyone here, but I hit above the belt (and no, I am not Jewish).

  • DrDooby

    Very well said. But it’s generally tough for people to grasp anything beyond “black / white” or “good / bad” and beyond ultra short term. Omar neither is a hero nor a failure. And we don’t truely know about Sandy yet – even into year 4. Patience is a virtue most fans unfortunately are lacking.

  • goorru

    What about Fatcessa? That’s moronic.

  • DrDooby

    But how & when did Stanton, Ozuna and Yelich, i.e. the young offensive core you’re referring to come aboard ?

  • omar minayass

    why? how about we make an assessment over the past five years. is that too soon?

    maybe if he was running things he would hold these jackass players accountable for their performances. or, maybe he would actually make an attempt to roll the dice & trade some of the young guys for major-league ready talent. this way, we can actually resemble a ballclub.

  • YouBHatin

    LMFAO @ this closet Omar hater with the same convenient hateful messages.

    Brian Bannister?
    Heath Bell?
    Matt Lindstrom?

    LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

    Losing a 3 game lead at the beginning of September is now one of the biggest collapses ever?

    #OmarHatin
    #TellUsWhyYoureReallyUpsetAtOmar

  • CJM

    And he was one of the 30 GMs to blacklist Barry Bonds. Think about it, he signed Alou to 2 years in 2007. Alou got off to a great start in 2008 and then went down. Barry Bonds was a free agent and coming off a season in which he had a 1.045 OPS. The Mets missed the playoffs by 1 game in 2008. What if they had Bonds playing left field?

  • TPT

    your right Ryan

  • YouBHatin

    No one cared about the money spent until Madoff happened. And if Madoff didn’t happen, a few more stars would have arrived later on (Pujols for one).

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Imagine if the Mets signed a guy like Alou right now…for two years. There would be rioting in the streets. Then it was a “nice veteran presence.”

  • Hotstreak

    Look at Omar’s legacy as the Sherman article states. Santana was a great addition but injury made it a bad contract., You forgot to mention KROD which SA did a great job getting out of stupid vesting option.

    Here is my main point remember Phillips (yeah 2000 WS) but left along with Duquette Omar nothing on the farm. Zilch. Omar came in and changed the Art Howe days to contendtion (yeah contention too with Buzzard and Rubin) although short lived. Omar grade is C+ (or b-) However, with Harvey, Lagares, Flores and Mejeia, Niese, Gee, Murphy deGrom, maybe Puello and more the farm is in good our future looks good.

  • DrDooby

    Would the David Wright contract have been a better signing if Wright made only 10 million from 2013 through 2016 for 4 years and then 100 million for 2017 through 2020 his final 4 seasons from age 34 through 37 or the way it is structured now where it actually decreases the final 2 years ?

    Omar kept signing veteran players to BACKLOADED deals, doubling the risk that a decline would look worse than it actually would have been under balanced terms. Of course, that was part of the Wilpon playbook: Just think short term – worry about long term consequences later.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    The loss of a seven game lead with seventeen to play? What’s the defense for that one?

  • YouBHatin

    It’s AMAZING how the Ba1derson/DepodesTOOL contingent refuse to acknowledge how AWFUL these two are when it comes to IFAS.

    What’s even funnier is how every Omar hater IMMEDIATELY goes to the MLB draft to complain about Minaya, when Ba1derson/DepodesTOOL haven’t drafted an MLB starter going back to 2005…lol.

    It’s pretty laughable actually. This long dissertation should be put on Comedy Central or Saturday Night Live.

    What’s really a TOTAL shame is how we can’t compare Omar drafts to Ba1derson/DepodesTOOL drafts since 2005, since Omar is the only GM to see his players actually MAKE the big league level…

    LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

  • TPT

    what THEN UNLESS EVERY PLAYER WAS DRAFTED BY A GM that he traded would negate credit for almost every trade ever made in the history of baseball …its not the piece you trade and where you got it from its having the correct judgement to trade it to bring in a better player for you team ..your logic is way off base

  • YouBHatin

    Ba1derson would KILL to get K-Rod back. Matter of fact, if we add up all the WASTED money on bullpen pieces our washed up GM has spent, it would have better to KEEP K-Rod. Instead, we traded him for two car mechanics currently working the junkyards in Hunts Pt.

    Another EPIC fail by Ba1derson. Meanwhile, K-Rod is headed to the All-Star game….again.

  • goorru

    The core i’m referring to Drafting intelligently, IFA and trades.

  • Joey D.

    Hi THWLC,

    No, when the move is dictated by the need to take measures to reduce expenses that required over $100 million in emergency loans to avoid liquidation ($25 million from MBL, $40 million bridge loan and $38 million from the Wilpons) that is not baseball, that is not sport….., that is nothing other than business.

    Beltran and KRod were not the first moves taken for the good of Sterling Mets that were in turn not for the good of the team. The retreads Sandy signed before 2011 even began we now know were due to an extreme financial need to spend as little as possible – not because he had limited flexibility that upcoming season due to certain contractual obligations that were going to then expire.

    And the same applies to the steps taken after those moves as well.
    The history that follows and continues to this day would be much different and so would the team, for business wise no ownership would just sit back and allow it’s franchise to disconnect with the fan base like this. There would be no rebuilding in the manner in which we are seeing. Nobody would have ever heard of the term “payroll concentration”.

    “Payroll concentration” is not baseball language, either. It’s accountant’s language.

    I sincerely wish the Beltran move was a choice made pertaining to baseball. Then the argument would be about judgment and not disconnection.

  • billpulsipher

    the mets were a joke in 2002/2003/2004 and were not spending money. its well a known fact that Omar told them to stop handing over the city to the yankees and to open the purse strings…hence beltran, wagner, pedro, delgado

  • DrDooby

    It’s tough for some fans to comprehend the natural time delay you end up with when evaluating a GM’s body of work. The 2007 and 2008 teams in parts collapsed because of failures under Phillips & Duquette to provide talent helpful then. The Mets top 2 prospects entering 2010, i.e, 4 years ago were Mejia and Flores – signed in 2007, barely now getting there.

  • Destry

    Blaming Alderson for not drafting Jose Fernandez and not signing Abreu is like saying Minaya sucked because he didn’t sign Miguel Cabrera and didn’t draft Buster Posey. Its not like we were the only team to pass on Fernandez. You can give the Marlins credit for drafting but saying it was a dumb move is borderline retarded. Same thing with Abreu. It wasn’t down to just us and the White Sox. 28 other teams passed on him also. Not to mention. He is a DH only in a year or two. How does that play In the NL. Use some common sense.

  • Destry

    4/32 for Castillo

  • YouBHatin

    Omar Minaya has scouted Hall of Famers. He’s scouted All-Stars. DepodesTOOL and Ba1derson haven’t scouted JACK in the last decade. And when I mean jack…I mean NOTHING lol

  • Hotstreak

    I had no idea he was having a good year. Thanks for heads up. I forgot to mention Omar got us Beltran the most under appreciated Met. As Dir of Scounting in DR Omar was very instrumental in making FO sign Reyes. Phillips was GM but it was Asst GM Duquette who first said “No” and Omar changed his mind.

  • DrDooby

    That’s what Alderson has been trying to do. Let’s see who is here in 2016. The Marlins added their young core bats between 2007 and 2010…

  • billpulsipher

    sandy lovers coming out to defend their god today. lot of hate going on about how the marlins really arent as far as the mets. oh really? because I will take Fernandez, Alvarez, Turner and Eovoldi over Harvey, Wheeler, Montero and Thor…Stanton, Yelich, and Ozuna over ANY homegrown position players the Mets have…the Mets are so desperate for position players that the fanbase has put Wilmer Flores on a pedestal like he’s the 2nd coming of Hanley Ramirez lol. Sandy is awful. Top to bottom. He signs retreads. He ignores black holes (SS, bullpen, 1st base) He likes to puff his chest out on what great scouts they are yet they blew off Jose Abreu and totally EFFED UP by not drafting Jose Fernandez,. Maybe those 10 GMS he has working under him coulda scouted Abreu and Fernandez more???? He has no clue about FA (Colon, Marcum, Francisco) He is responsible for this IDIOTIC hitting philosophy.

  • YouBHatin

    Parnell would be THE superstar draft pick for Ba1derson compared to the truck drivers he and DepodesTOOL have drafted going back to their San Diego days.

  • elsid1986

    Hey Sandy…Your Honeymoon period with the NY Media is over. If this team stuggles the frequency of these types are articles will increase expotentially.

  • agetting

    I HATE the argument you make about 28 other teams passing on Abreu. About 25 other teams had decent options at 1b, the Mets did not. The mets were a better fit for Abreu than every other team in baseball. We don’t even have a first basemen on the roster.

  • YouBHatin

    This coming from a banana peel who barely can speak his own language…lol @ calling someone who can communicate in 2 languages “illiterate”

    LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

  • TPT

    what makes you so sure the Marlins wouldnt sign the best player they ever had and the darling of Miami? ..theres a difference here the Marlin owner isnt flat broke he just chose to spend wisely so dont be so sure Stanton is gone in 3 yrs and if he is he’ll be a Yankee or Dodger before a Met because we will never be able to come close to paying him

  • RyanF55

    I’ve said this many times…Brian Cashman could be the GM of the Mets…payroll would still be south of 90 million.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    It’s both ways. Teams trade guys rather than pay them all the time. They all ‘wish’ it wasn’t necessary, but they accept it is and do what’s best for the team. The Rays, a team far more talented than the Mets, traded for Wil Myers because they weren’t going to pay James Shields and they’ve already admitted they probably will do the same with David Price.

    You’re upset the Mets have money issues, which is fine. But that’s not WHY they traded Beltran. They traded Beltran because he was entering free agency and they didn’t foresee keeping him. Whether that was because they COULDN’T or WOULDN’T pay him doesn’t matter. Either way he wasn’t coming back and the RIGHT CALL was to trade him.

  • Destry

    No. They don’t. Name 25 good 1B.

  • billpulsipher

    sandy and his 10 henchman working under him couldnt afford the plane ticket to cuba to scout Abreu

  • RyanF55

    Is that sarcastic? Haha

  • CJM

    According to Baseball Prospectus, that is not the case. Before 2013, when Fernandez, Yelich, and Ozuna were still prospects, BP ranked the Mets’ farm system 10th and the Marlins’ system 11th. Now, in 2014, the Mets are ranked 8th and the Marlins 19th.

    Here is what’s written about the Mets’ trajectory: “Steady. The Mets will likely graduate four of the top five prospects in their system, but the helium from low-level talents like Rosario, Molina, and Meisner could keep the system holding strong in the top 10 in the game, despite the graduations.

    And the Marlins: “Up. Heaney and Marisnick will likely lose eligibility, but with expected developmental progress from Moran and Williams, and a slew of early draft picks, including the number two overall selection, the farm system is likely to take a few steps forward.

    So it would appear that BP believes the Mets farm system not only was better, but still is better, and will likely remain better, even after they graduate their top guys. That would indicate that the Mets are actually ahead of the Marlins in terms of young talent, even though the Marlins’ young talent is currently playing in the majors.

    Here are links to the 2013 and 2014 reports:

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=20025

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=22906

  • Guest

    unless you listen to jeffey boy who said they had 3 first baseman lol

  • Destry

    Who did Omar draft again? Kevin Mulvey? Phillip Humber?

  • billpulsipher

    MATT…HARVEY….JON NIESE…..DILLON GEE….CARLOS GOMEZ

  • agetting

    Bottom line is the Mets were a better fit than anyone else for many reasons.

  • jason bay

    Joel Sherman can’t possibly be this DUMB, can he?

    Phillips inherited Alfonzo, Ordonez, Olerud, Reed, Jones, Izzy, Hundley and plenty of room to add payroll from day 1.

    Minaya inherited Reyes, Wright, Floyd, Cameron, Piazza, Glavine, Trachsel, Stanton, Banister, Feliciano, Milledge, Bell, Lindstrom and Gomez and plenty if room to add payroll right from day 1.

    That’s just the way it is baseball. Arguably Minaya could have traded Piazza, Cameron and Floyd for a haul in 2005, kept Bell and Linstrom and had a decent pen in 2007, 2008 and 2009.

    Remember Pelfrey made it up here in his first pro season but what does that prove? Parnell his 3rd but it took 2 years for him to be effective and these were college players.

    Niese and Thole were high school players for Minay’s first draft and it was 2010 before they did anything. To complain about the rapidity with which prospects get up here is lunacy.

    We’re still waiting on Mejia and Familia to some extent, not to mention Flores and Puello, Kirk, Duda and deGrom (college 2010) but HS players drafted in 2011. 2012 and 2013 should be here now?

    Please Joel. Get a grip.

  • Well, they signed a guy like him for one year. Bobby Abreu.

  • elsid1986

    And the fact that 24 players from the 2011 draft have already played in the majors…None drafted by Alderson is Minaya’s fault too.

  • Destry

    Disagree. Bottom line.

  • CJM

    And ~$1 million. Hardly analogous.

  • Destry

    Abreu with be hittin .215 with 5 HRs at Citi in the NL

  • agetting

    Instead they signed a power hitting outfielder that is aging, very skinny, strikes out a lot and hits for a low BA. That’s a significant gamble and a recipe for disaster. I’m convinced Sandy had no idea what FA to sign so he went with the one that could play a good OF.

  • elsid1986

    OMG and article criticizing lord Sandy. How dare he.

  • Destry

    Half season SP? May be good. Might be done. Who knows?

  • True about the money. Omar would have given him 2 years @ $6M per.

  • CJM

    Who is Ba1derson?

  • YouBHatin

    Over the last 25 years of MLB drafts, about 18% of 1st round picks make the big leagues oh enlightened one. Omar Minaya surpassed those totals in his 7 year reign as Met GM. Less than 10% of those 1st round picks become All-Stars.

  • PessiMets

    i think the problems with the fans and Alderson (more the Mets ownership and the organization in general) is that we constantly heard that this was the year we were waiting for. the year were Santana and Bay’s contracts were finally off the books, when our young SP were ready to step up (where are they btw?)! then alderson goes on wfan and says in october of last year that 1b and ss are positions where the team would improve upon and NOTHING happens!!! furthermore, our can’t miss prospect pitchers are waiting for Super 2 status to pass. we feel like we’ve been sold a load of bull. we are hungry, we want competitive baseball – not go 23 scoreless against the “greatest pitching staff that ever lived”.

  • agetting

    how? He’s the prototypical power hitter. He hits long home runs. Your point makes no sense…

  • CJM

    Dude, did you read the article this comment section is attached to? I’m making a joke.

  • Destry

    We didn’t and still don’t need a 1B.

  • Taskmaster4450

    What do you expect a guy who was a top three pitcher in baseball at the time to sign for? Compare it to CC’s contract….compare to Roy Halliday. You will see it was in line.

  • jason bay

    Minaya drafted 1 All Star and zero HOFers.

  • Destry

    6 JE HRs and 1 Lucky HR, none of which would be out at Citi in April.

  • YouBHatin

    Yeah, in 2 years Omar took a team from 70 something wins to the best team in baseball.

    Ba1derson and his monkeyball machinations can’t bring the Mets to .500.

    #Please
    #KeepQuiet

  • agetting

    so what do we need then? We’re 28th in offensive production in baseball.

  • mad met

    Not with ya on this one man abreu was the one .we screamed about it left and right Ike and duda suck. As far as abreu being a dh what do u think Bambi is (duda)

  • DrDooby

    Omar got Omar outbidding all other teams and after the Yankees rejected Beltran’s offer to play for them for less than what he signed with with the Mets.

    Omar deserves credit for convincing Mets owners to spend in a big way to support Wright, Reyes, Floyd, Glavine in 2005 and 2006. Thus the additions of Beltran, Pedro, Wagner and Delgado at about 270 million $ combined within a span of 15 months…

  • Martin

    The reason why this site succeeds is that regular idiots like us have better opinions and similar writing skills to the paper columnists.

  • PessiMets

    i think abreu was on the wilpons, they couldn’t take a risk so they didn’t

  • elsid1986

    Why is it you fail to mention the Mets are lagging behind the Marlins who started their rebuild a year after Lord Sandy arrived?

  • PessiMets

    duda is a prototypical DH if i ever saw one

  • Destry

    Play a few games at US Cellular Field. One of the HR friendliest parks in baseball

  • agetting

    agreed

  • elsid1986

    2016. The forever changing target year has changed yet again. Gotta love this plan.

  • PessiMets

    he’d be leading the mets in homers if that were true

  • Let me preface this by saying: Sandy Sucks and is a Liar.
    However, saying that he’s “Staying Afloat Thanks to Omar’s Gifts” is a little oversimplified. These Omar guys that people rave about were drafted 4, 5, 6, 7 years ago. That’s how long it takes a lot of guys to come up and contribute.
    If Sandy got fired today (please, please, please), in three years there would be a bunch of guys on the Mets ML roster that were either drafted by Sandy or acquired via trade for guys Sandy drafted.
    I’m all for some Wilpon>Sandy>Terry>Hudgens bashing, let’s just stick to the accurate, low hanging fruit. No need to make up crazy, inaccurate crap.

  • Destry

    Notice how many more runs we scored in Col? What about Arz? Its hard to hit in Citi in April. The wind is blowing in, and its cold. Not to mention, its a huge park, and we faced the best pitching staff baseball has to offer so far. Our offense isn’t as bad as it looks on paper right now.

  • YouBHatin

    lmaooooooooooooooooo

    Omar haters really are funny. For the record, let’s go over the Beltran signing again. Up until that fateful day, NOT ONE top flight free agent ever chose the Mets over the Yankees.

    Beltran had Omar’s offer, went to Cashews and asked him to top it. Cashews thought it was a bluff. He was sure Beltran would take a Yankee offer, forgetting Boras was the agent. Cashews didn’t think Beltran would choose the Mets.

    Al-Yankazeera aka YesNetwork went on damage control. They invented the lie, the media monkeys ran with it. Beltran took the money. Brian Cashews simply got BEAT by Omar Minaya.

  • mad met

    Wish he was more aggressive ..takes to many called third strikes looking

  • Taskmaster4450

    Do you really have a clue?

    Here are the facts:

    Mets payroll:

    02 $94M
    03 $117M
    04 $96M

    Yanks Payrolll

    02 $125M
    03 $152M
    04 $184M

    Red Sox Payroll

    02 $108M
    03 $99M
    04 $127M

    Dodgers Payroll

    02 $94M
    03 $105M
    04 $92M

    The Mets were THIRD in the league in spending for that time period. But to you they werent spending.

    You dont deal in facts.

  • seldomused

    Reading comprehension is your friend. Re-read my original post before you start flaming me.

    My point was that Sherman seems to be bashing Alderson (much of which is deserved) but only praising Manaya. I agree Manaya did a lot of good for this franchise in his first few years here. But I don’t agree with the fact that what he did later in his career here should be overlooked.

    #youclearlydontunderstandhashtags

  • Destry

    Nevermind bringing in David Wright and Jose Reyes. Without Phillips and Duquette, Minaya would’ve had a 140mil payroll with 50 wins per season.

  • elsid1986

    Yea but we didnt need Abreu. Had Duda/Ike/Satin glut. LOL.

  • PessiMets

    i wish he were just better

  • Sandy sucks, but you’re still 100% right.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Just like the government…It is better that way.

  • mad met

    A cleanup hitter 280 plus avg with 50 extra base hits

  • Anthony

    28 other teams didn’t need a first baseman

  • Destry

    Really easy to include Santana.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Not nearly the same thing. haha

  • DrDooby

    How can we evaluate IFA signed by Alderson & DePodesta when they mostly have yet to reach full season ball ????????

    Will Marcos Molina, Adrian Rosario & others be as good as Wilmer Flores & Jenrry Mejia & others ?

    We have NO IDEA since we don’t even know what to make of Flores, Mejia and Co 7+ years since they went pro. We’ll find out about Alderson’s IFA success in 2019 maybe. Then I can take your comment seriously. Please remind me then. You may be correct. You may not.

    But unfortunately, that statement is totally useless today.

  • Destry

    Terrible contract

  • goorru

    They have young talent actually in the majors that are succeeding not just prospects. In 2012 the top prospects were Wheeler and Jose Fernandez well we know how that that turned out so far.

  • YouBHatin

    It’s MINAYA, dude. You should know the name of the best GM the Mets have had since Cashen.

    And those “bonehead” moves, as you so eloquently stated, had nothing to do with the Mets not making the playoffs while Omar was here.

  • CJM

    And we will see what Montero and Syndergaard do this year.

  • Destry

    Omar was reckless with ignorant contracts. All of them were terrible.

  • Anthony

    Based on that thinking we should never sign anyone. They are all destined to fail

  • Destry

    Daniel Murphy?

  • elsid1986

    I wish he played for someone else.

  • YouBHatin

    Ummmmmm sure we can. Where are DepodesTOOL’s kids from his Dodger days? Where are the ones DepodesTOOL found after Towers left the Padres and he was put in charge?

  • Anthony

    The duda has every pitcher quaking

  • Whenever I read these Sandy vs. Omar rants with their impassioned fan boys and haters it makes me thing of Republicans vs Democrats or Microsoft vs Apple arguments.
    I just want to tap both sides on the shoulder and say, “You’re right their side sucks.” Problem is, everybody is right, both sides suck.

  • mad met

    Granderson was not a risk ?

  • Taskmaster4450

    They did…Colon.

  • DrDooby

    So who paid for Mo Vaughn (formerly Kevin Appier), Tom Glavine, Cliff Floyd, Mike Cameron, Kaz Matsui, Roberto Alomar and other expensive players on the 2002 to 2004 Mets ?

  • TPT

    you just might be eating your words when we look back at the 80 million for Grandy and Colon and you can say what you want about Omar but when SA wins 97 games in a season to lead the malors like Omar did and when SA gives us another Beltran or Delgado or Reyes or Paul Lo Duca . then get back to us ….you have a short narrow minded memory im afraid

  • Destry

    No. Its just silly to think he would have the same numbers. Would Tulo?

  • Hotstreak

    SA at his intial press conference said a GM jobs is two fold/

    Parent team competitive
    Build the Farm Balance both duties.

    I agreed of what he said. BUT
    We know the story the Picard lawsuit and dismantle the team all for financial purposes.

    Less than fmv for Reyes.

    Lies about condending . This is 2014 the bad contracts are supposedly (for most part) off the books.

    Were FA signed over 30 coming off down years except Colon worth the investment with glaring needs not filled.

    As to extending Wright. He represent 25% of salary is that a smart investment. Yes he coined the term 2nd generation contracts and Jeffery over ruled SA. SA should have quit with dignity.

    WRAP UP

    Omar put a competitive team together from nothing (think Art Howe days).

    Omar left a pretty good Legacy for SA as Sherman correctly wrote.

    Spin all you want those are the facts.

  • Taskmaster4450

    For 20+ years.

    The only reason Piazza was in a Met uniform was because Doubleday stepped in when Wilpon was going cheap. Too bad Doubleday wasnt around in 2010 when Wilpon went cheap on Holliday hence the Bay contract.

  • DrDooby

    Halladay’s deal was structured a lot better.
    CC has this season and another 3 left on his deal. Good luck to the Yankees with that.

  • mad met

    For what ever reason Murphy does not like batting cleanup he is most comfortable batting 2

  • PessiMets

    don’t get me wrong i wanted abreu! but he was more of a risk than granderson because he never played in the majors before. the mets obviously should have done whatever they could to get him, but they are so broke that they couldn’t risk him failing

  • TPT

    they arent funny they’re ignorant with short memories

  • YouBHatin

    lmaoooooooooooooooooo Ba1derson has not drafted in his career. Beane and DepodesTOOL do the work for him. Scrubs like you TRY to give him credit. The dude is an out and out FAILURE

    #BringBackOmar

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Haha. Good point. And see…rioting. But for Alou? Zip.

  • mad met

    Granderson will sink this team he is a strikeout waiting to happen .a now he will block a good future bat in this line up

  • TPT

    sometimes its really hard to tell but ok sorry my bad i get it

  • Destry

    I know, but he is a +.280 hitter with 50 + xbh

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments
  • YouBHatin

    lmfao….If you REALLY think in 4 years this team will consist of guys DepodesTOOL scouted/drafted, you’re not paying attention to history, my friend.

    If the Mets owners had ANY common sense, they bring Omar back to fix this disaster created by Madoff and exacerbated by Ba1lderson/DepodesTOOL

  • Destry

    But Abreu will never strike out hit .400 with 50 HRs per season and not block any prospects like Dom Smith

  • CJM

    The point is. The trade for Delgado was a GREAT trade. Minaya should be credited for the trade. The trades for Wheeler, Syndergaard, and TdA were GREAT trades. Alderson should be credited for those. Sherman diminishing Alderson’s trades because they were not “his guys” is ridiculous.

  • PessiMets

    its not about comparing the player against themselves depending on the park, its about comparing the player (tulo or abreu for instance) to what we already have

  • Taskmaster4450

    Out of 290 draft picks, how many all stars did Omar have?

    1 season…Matt Harvey in 2013.

    That is it.

    That is pretty pathetic

    The Braves from the 2008 draft, have 5 AS appearances between Freeman, Heyward, and Kimbrel alone.

    So yes, Omar’s drafting sucked.

  • Hotstreak

    They know the facts but spin it to discredit him.

  • YouBHatin

    And #TeamBa1derson is out here in full force defending their hero…

    LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

  • DrDooby

    This was more in reference to the Marlins. It’s kind of tough blaming Alderson for the Mets 2007 to 2010 drafting and IFA signings…

  • TPT

    no not at all

  • Taskmaster4450

    Best GM…Omar was pretty pathetic.

    He was able to dole out money that is all….and only after the Yankees and Red Sox pulled out.

    $50M for one year of Pedro and 3 years of he is injured. His career was over at that point.
    SIgned Beltran only after the Yankees wouldnt agree to Boras demands. Easy to sign the best free agent when no one else is left bidding.
    Traded for Johan after the Yankees and Red Sox both pulled out and the Twins were desperate. Again, a steal because nobody else left to give Johan that size contract.

    So what did Omar really do?

  • TAPE_LGM_JETS

    People should take a look at DW and Grandy’s hit charts. Plenty of warning track hard outs that would be out in U.S. Cellular

  • DrDooby

    So how did the Marlins get Stanton, Yelich, Ozuna AFTER Alderson became Mets GM. Please explain…

  • YouBHatin

    “Arguably Minaya could have traded Piazza, Cameron and Floyd for a haul in 2005, kept Bell and Linstrom and had a decent pen in 2007, 2008 and 2009” ????

    Lindstrom and Bell? Bell, the fat guy with the 6 ERA who couldn’t pitch in NY? One of only 2 or 3 relievers who have given up a late inning homerun to David Wright to change the outcome of a game in the last 8 years? What???

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYpxvvQeMQ

  • Agee’s Catch

    I agree, and the political comparison is apt. Most administrations are confined by their predecessor’s work for a year or two before their own policies can begin to take effect.

  • Taskmaster4450

    I got attacked for arguing that signing by Omar was terrible by the Omar idiots. Of course, ethnic makeup always comes into play when this debate so one must be a hater by calling the Alou signing totally stupid. It shows how Omar was braindead…it isnt as if Alou didnt have a history of injuries throughout his career….and people were surprised when he got hurt. Sure, guys who cant stay healthy their careers suddenly do at 40.

  • Destry

    Sandy sucks. No doubt about it, but lets not pretend that Omar didn’t almost sink the entire ship.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Doubt it. 1B wasnt on the priority list as much as the OF and getting a pitcher to eat up innings after losing Harvey.

    Abreau wasnt on the radar as 1B wasnt a top need.

    That is why there was no pursuit of Abreas.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    People LOVED Alou on this team because everything he did, he was the oldest person to have every done that thing. But Colon? Forget it. Can’t do anything to win these chickens over.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Apple by far…Jobs was 10X the man Gates ever will be…..

    And dont say otherwise.

    JK…I use android.

  • LIKayLGM

    If you had any common sense, or long term memory, you’d realize it’s time to start over with new regime starting with ownership, management, coaches. You want to move ahead, then move ahead, no taking steps back to bring back anything/anyone.

  • YouBHatin

    Actually, no it has not. He’s right in line with the averages, brain cramps. Try and keep up. Leave your hate in the next room please.

  • Taskmaster4450

    And the mental midgets are here defending Omar.

  • DrDooby

    That’s about as helpful as evaluating the Bartolo Colon for Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore and Brandon Phillips deal…

  • YouBHatin

    Omar took a 20 game below .500 team and made them the best team in baseball in 2006. Your boy Ba1derson, whom you HEAVILY defended for YEARS now, can’t even get over 76 wins…LMFAO

    Omar made the team a playoff contender. Your boy makes the Mets LAYOFF contenders.

    #GetAGrip
    #StopHatin
    #Ignorance
    #Agendas

  • LIKayLGM

    Another thread to read “sandy lovers coming out to defend their god today”, because that never gets old.

  • Taskmaster4450

    You are amazing with your posts.

    Do you think before you even post?

    So you are crediting DePo for the young pitching and saying that isnt Alderson?

    Who the hell hired DePo and put him in that position?

  • HawkZon

    As long as you think a billionaire is a great guy when he doesn’t donate a dime to charity. Gates is 100x the guy Jobs was, Gates is moving humanity forward with his wealth, all Jobs cared about was Jobs.

  • agetting

    Destry…enough with the BS. If Stanton played at US Cellular and had 12 homers right now you’d say he would have 2 at Citi Field

  • YouBHatin

    Awwwwwww that pathetic trade. Even YOU know Omar was there to make that team sellable. That was his job. Colon was added to help make the Expos a team worthy of being purchased, since they had no owners when MLB hired Omar. And that’s what he successfully did, which is why MLB loves the guy.

    #GetAGrip
    #Education

  • Taskmaster4450

    Yeah bring back the guy who destroyed two franchises with his decisions.

  • YouBHatin

    But didn’t you say Ba1derson would make the Mets competitive within 5 years back in 2011?

    What happened to that prediction, big mouth?

    LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

  • Agee’s Catch

    In most cases, only the owners can fire themselves. How do you do that?

    Devalue the team.

    Don’t go to games. Don’t watch, Don’t listen. Don’t visit SNY or MLB websites. Follow the team through third party sources like MMO, Baseball Reference, etc. Stop putting money in their pockets and they may get he hint that the fan base will not support the team anymore.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Who hired Beane and DePo?

    There goes your argument.

  • beers22

    The Post sucks, and Joel Sherman’s a dbag who votes for Biggio Bonds Clemens Glavine Maddux Martinez Morris Raines Schilling Thomas for the hall and leaves off Piazza. So he either thinks Bonds and Clemens didn’t do roids and Piazza did, or he thinks Tim Raines, Curt Schilling and Edgar Martinez are more deserving of the hall, or he’s a Met hating dbag. Nuff said!

  • YouBHatin

    LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Please.

    DepodesTOOL is a joke. He’s a glorified Ivy League Gopher who has not drafted an MLB starter in his ENTIRE CAREER.

    Beane is a former player. He recognizes talent. Ba1derson had nothing to do with his skill.

  • YouBHatin

    No, we’re here supporting the article.

    #HandleIt

  • Taskmaster4450

    You are comparing a guy signed to a minor league contract as a potential bench player to a guy who was given a 2 year deal to start in LF?

  • elsid1986

    Of course not. We had a glut of Firstbaseman. None of them belong in the major leagues but hey its a glut. If the “Cabinet of Stupid” as Vacarro called them yesterdy, really thought first base was not a priority then they are more clueless than anyone here accuses them of being.

  • YouBHatin

    LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

    Such ignorance. Omar inherited 2 disasters. He made BOTH playoff contenders within 2 years.

    Ba1derson carwrecked the Padres
    Now he’s carwrecking the Mets.

  • Hotstreak

    Yes I give Omar a grade of C+ or B – which is in line of what you say. Sure five years from now we will know more about SA’s legacy. In rebuilding you definately have losing years.

    But he did not rebuild the proper way.

    The future of this team looks bright with IFA Omar signings plus Harvey, Niese, and Gee. I expect Murphy to be traded for a good player which is in effect will be a link to Omar’s legacy as Beltran and Dickey trade chips used to obtain Wheeler and THOR. TdA we shall see.

    NImmo may bring praises to SA as Legaress and maybe Flores now bring to Omar.

    If Harvey stays a Met and is a HOF Omar’s grade goes to a solid B or better.

  • elsid1986

    That does not make him wrong.

  • Nolrog

    That doesn’t stop him from saying it though.

  • Monix

    Calling the Colon signing a failure in the beginning of May is asinine but pretty much everything you post is.

  • Taskmaster4450

    So you have little baseball sense.

    You wouldnt trade for the one of the best pitchers in baseball while giving up baseball lower end prospects?

    Sorry but any rational baseball person jumps at that deal.

  • elsid1986

    If the Alderson regime is still in charge when Harvey becomes a free agent you can bet your last dollar he will leave.

  • Not4

    Ha! Guess Sherman inadvertently (or otherwise) left that out of the article as it does not support his 10 year old-esque rant

  • Taskmaster4450

    Hard for me to make that prediction you mental midget since I didnt get on this site until 2012.

    So try again little one.

  • Monix

    Yup, we should do it the Yankee way and sign nothing but free agents and make no effort to improve the farm system.

  • Taskmaster4450

    He doesnt let the facts get in the way of his agenda.

  • Hotstreak

    Ugly and Atrocious wield its ugly head again . Yes the odds are you are correct. They know how to alienate the fans.

  • Hodges14

    and win and make a profit every year. Sounds like a good plan.

  • TAPE_LGM_JETS

    I really cannot stand the overreactions about the Marlins. I like Yelich, I think he will be good. Stanton is Stanton we all know how awesome he is. But Ozuna still needs work, and let us see their pitching maintain this [except Fernandez] before we make judgements.

    The Mets could have 12 pitchers that are possible studs on the ML roster next year [Harvey, Wheeler, Syndergaard, montero, DeGrom, Mejia, Familia, Mazzoni, Black, Parnell, Niese, and Gee]. That is not counting that Torres looks like something we should retain and not counting any lefties. Lets not forget that it does not stop there either.

    The issue is that all of our hitting prospects are in Single or Double A, so it seems like our system stinks to a lot of fans. You can knock Alderson for a lot of things, but restocking the system is not one.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments
  • Devan Cleary

    DePodesta has not had a 1st round pick make it to MLB since he started “scouting” them in 2006 with the Padres

  • Not4

    Sorry, are you suggesting that, if one were to ignore an steroids “taint”, Piazza does not belong in the HOF?

    At the heart of beers argument is that Sherman apparently is not applying the same standards to all with the steroids “taint”, is it not?

  • TAPE_LGM_JETS

    What about Harvey? Does he not count? I get that Fernandez is NASTY, but wasn’t harvey just as nasty?

  • Taskmaster4450

    Carwrecked the Padres?

    To wreck something doesnt that mean it was good before…I dont remember the Padres being good since the days of a young Tony Gwynn.

    As for the Mets, I seem to recall that Omar was axed after a terrific 70 win season. Hard to wreck that which was his second 4th place finish.

    So once again, misstatements just to support your outrageous agenda.

  • Monix

    Haha you are such a clown it’s hilarious.Are you really trolling or actually believe this B.S. Not signing Abreu is #1? Really?? A guy who could still end up another Cespedes or Adam Dunn and you’re convinced we missed out already huh.
    2) I’m unsure that was a debacle. If he hadn’t gotten hurt, might’ve been traded. Certainly he shouldn’t have been resigned. I hope you’re not suggesting he should’ve been kept.
    3) Totally agree
    4) You didn’t even know who Jose Fernadez was during that draft.
    5 & 6) Agreed, though Marcum really isn’t a big deal he was just a short-term placeholder and not really worth getting upset about. Francisco was dreadful.
    7) It’s May 9, judging those signings already is short-sighted and ignorant.

  • Hotstreak

    Is that an option? We will take it in a heart beat. We are stuck in Ground Hog day. The clock stopped.

  • TAPE_LGM_JETS

    80 Mill? That is 65 mill a year not over the course of contracts….

  • CJM

    Minaya had 6 drafts (’05-’10). Here are the players from those drafts who at one point or another played a significant role on the Mets: Pelf, Niese, Parnell, Thole, Joe Smith, Murph, Duda, Gee, Ike, Kirk, Harvey.

    Of those guys, here are the players we can say have been pretty successful: Harvey, Joe Smith, Murph.

    Moderately successful: Parnell, Niese, Gee

    Afterthoughts: Kirk, Thole.

    Busts: Pelf, Ike.

    No judgment yet: Duda.

    None of Minaya’s 2009 picks have made the Majors yet. 3 picks from 2010 have made the Majors: Harvey (great pick), Edgin (afterthought), den Dekker (afterthought).

    I’m not bashing Minaya here, but I want to point out 1) the nature of the draft–it’s unpredictable, and 2) blaming Alderson for none of his picks making the Majors yet is ridiculous, because it hasn’t even been 3 full years since his first draft with the Mets.

  • Not4

    You know what has gotten old? Mindless saps spewing out “Sandy Lover” posts any time they are unable to articulate any facts to counter any poster who shows a modicum of intelligence by applying little things like logic, common sense and some knowledge of baseball, regardless of their view of the current GM.

  • TAPE_LGM_JETS

    So to be fair you should say the 25ish million for the next two years and 15ish or so for the 2 years after. Still leaves some flexibility for any normal ML team, unfortunately we are not a normal ML team

  • peterfonda

    Minaya never had to deal with the Madoff problem.

  • Hotstreak

    You just wrote a very defensive post. You are desparate. Now you defend Phillips/Duquette for his FA signings and raping the farm in trades and draft picks..

  • goorru

    Alou just couldn’t stay healthy, his OPS was .916 the first year he was here.

  • elsid1986

    I thought Minaya was clueless. But the total devotion by some here to Alderson et al is laughable. He got a free pass his first 3 years while all the garbage contracts clogged up the roster. Its accountabilty time and the NY Media is starting to hold his feet to the fire as they should.

  • CJM

    Man I love Fernandez. And to think, the Mets passed on him! But really, that is the draft. I guess people just don’t understand its nature. Let’s not forget Minaya drafted Pelfrey over Andrew McCutchen, Eddie Kunz when Jordan Zimmerman was on the board, and Steven Matz over Wil Myers. Those things happen.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Well, we’ll see where Colon is at the end of this season (assuming he’s not traded) and maybe people will have similar statements.

  • OK, so let’s grant everyone’s wish: Sandy is Fired (which I actually advocate).
    He’s been here for the better part of 4 years. How many guys in this organization has he drafted, signed, and/or traded for? IDK maybe 100 +/-.
    What is the next GM going to do – Fire these 100 guys over night?
    Where is he going to get the 100 bodies from? You can’t just run 5 extra drafts this year because Sandy sucked.
    Oh, I guess he’ll just sign a bunch of free agents. (That doesn’t use Sandy’s picks, trade results, or free agent signings.)
    I’m sorry, did I forget to tell you that the Wilpons aren’t going to give you any money?
    Maybe he’ll just trade for a bunch of “his guys”. Trade what? The 100 of Sandy’s guys that you just took off the table?
    I’m not looking at history, I’m just looking at math and logic.
    Here’s what the next GM that gets hired in every single open job in baseball will do:
    Look at all of the resources from A-ball to the 25 man roster.
    Keep the guys that fit his “plan”.
    Trade the chips that his predecessor left behind for some pieces.
    Sign International and Major League free agents.
    Start drafting guys and pray that he hits a few homers.

    Saying that Sandy sucks (which he does) doesn’t change the laws of physics in the universe. Or have you not been paying attention to history, my friend?

  • TPT

    you forgot he got us to 97 wins the most in the majors in just his second year and packed Shea with 4 million fans so get back to us when SA even gets close to this ok?

  • mr. belvedere

    I like how this conveniently leaves out moves he’s made that worked out… Byrd, Izzy, Byrdak, Hairston, resigning Niese and RA every GM has good and bad moves…

  • TAPE_LGM_JETS

    We can go on for years, and through all different sports, and find GEMS like Fernandez slip down the draft. As you said, it is the nature of the game. But we cannot disregard that the Mets knew that getting Nimmo would take at least 2 years before any good results happen, they said it themselves. So far, almost all the draft picks have performed as expected. We forget that they decided to go with high school players, and high school players take about 4-6 years in the minors!!! So this whole Sandy hasn’t done anything with the draft crap is not true, it still remains to be seen!!!

  • TPT

    can you tell me what players/prospects SA got for “trading” Jose Reyes when everybody knew he’d never be signed by us? just wondering?

  • Monix

    Really, you’d enjoy that? You liked watching Tom Glavine pitch on the Mets? Seeing guys like Damon and Ellbury on the Yankees shows how pathetic they are as a franchise. What’s enjoyable about winning when your payroll doubles that of your opponents. Shouldn’t you always win?

  • Hotstreak

    Yes SA did and concentrated on the Wilpon survival and neglected the team. But now is 2014.
    We are stuck with contracts of Wright and Grandy who will never be younger than today. Omar was criticized for signing FA (Delgado and Beltran) usually selectively forgoten. Grandy coming off injury and terrible year going to Citi Field from Yankee Stadium.

    Do you think Wright representing 25% of payroll was a smart investment regardless if it is jeffery’s doing. SA has to take responsibility. Omar wanted Matt Holiday instead of Jason Bay but ownership said No. Omar main critique is that signing. But Omar has to take responsibility.

  • Joey D.

    HI TGWLC,

    Wil Meyers and James Shields were traded during the off season, not in the middle of a wildcard race. Teams that are out of it do what the Mets did – not teams that are in the race. That was NOT THE RIGHT CALL TO MAKE for that is NOT THE CALL OTHER TEAMS IN THAT POSITION DO. . How often do we see players from post-season clubs leave for greener pastures simply because they were necessary to keep during the regular season? And the same for those who were contending or hoping to get back into contention?

    Notice with an outside shot at the trade deadline (seven behind Detroit, six in the loss column) the Royals didn’t just send off Ervin Santana who was in the same situation as Beltran?

    If it was only a matter of $5 million (the combined savings between KRod and Beltran) there would be no basis for any argument on my part. But when one needs $100 million in loans to stay afloat, those kind
    of cuts along with others is what keeps them afloat. Don’t forget the 15 mid level employees who were also fired at the end of the 2011 season. And saving what would not have amounted to more than $1 million by cutting ties with the St. Lucie rookie team which they reunited with the following year.

    And of most importance, a team whose goal is to rebuild and had what was referred to as a dried out farm system would not, in turn be one then signs the second lowest amount of all 30 teams of one’s draft picks. That is not the way one goes about building for the future. And that included not signing one of their two second round draft picks who wanted slot money because by doing so, they would have to then negotiate slot money with others who could then demand the same consideration (the Mets did not offer any selection slot money).

  • Wait, so you’re telling me that six drafts worth of guy who have had 5 – 10 years to develop will produce more major league talent than
    4 drafts that have had ZERO to THREE years to develop?
    That’s crazy talk. Why hasn’t that high school kid that was drafted a few weeks ago had a 40/40 season yet?

  • Monix

    Yea because Abreu was known as a great fielder and power hitters are also known to tear it up at Citi Field. He was a high-risk signing on a team with budget problems. I also think acting like Abreu is the second coming of Pujols after 5 weeks shows what you know about baseball actually.

  • DrDooby
  • Hotstreak

    Extending Wright too.

  • Monix

    OK we get it. You have a hard-on for Abreu.

  • When I look at this crop of kids coming up, I shudder to think what this team would be like if Sandy would have traded Reyes AND Wright that year.
    You think they might have brought back a few bats or arms?
    Always trade your stars a year too early, never a year too late. Worse yet, NEVER let them walk for free.

  • agetting

    “and power hitters are known to tear it up at Citi Field.” This shows how little you know about baseball considering the Mets went ahead and signed a power hitter (Granderson.) Unless you consider him an on-base guy or something?

    “He was a high risk signing on a team with budget problems.” So Granderson wasn’t a high risk? A guy that hit .220 and struck out a million times over the past couple seasons. A guy that had his best power seasons in Yankee stadium. Your a fool…

  • CJM

    Can you tell me what exactly that has to do with my post? Off-topic, Alderson drafted Plawecki and Reynolds with his Reyes draft picks, I believe.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Not reading all that.

    Fine, you wanted them to keep Beltran. He would have walked away and we would have zilch to show for it. That’s fine. Maybe we would have won something. Probably not, but we’ll never know.

  • Frank Francisco

    One point in this article I have a beef with: To criticize Alderson for not drafting Jose Fernandez is foolish because none of us have any Idea what Nimmo will end up doing in the majors. Nimmo understandably could bust, but conversely If he turns into a .270/.370/.480 hitter with plus defense in center like some scouts believe he can be none of us will be complaining.

    I’m just saying you can’t judge who wins drafts until many, many years later. Sometimes even nearly a decade later. Example: The FO only recently accepted that Ike Davis was a bust and he was drafted in 2008 (6 years ago) out of college (not even a high school pick like Alderson goes for)!

  • TPT

    my post doesnt have a thing to do with yours CJM but im realizing people read every head scratching thing you write so i figured my post would be read lol

  • DrDooby

    If the payroll is to remain in the 90 million range for the next 5 years, then keeping Wright & signing Granderson was a bad idea.
    If the payroll will rise with success, then it’s no big deal as it should be closer to 130 million than 90 million by 2016…

  • Hotstreak

    Yes I said DW at 18% or a 130 M payroll is justified.

    Dr.Dooby we disagree a lot but on some important matters we agree. Great post.

  • DrDooby

    The 4th draft hasn’t even happened yet.

    But Astros fans are getting upset and impatient with Jeff Luhnow failing to come up with a major leaguer in two drafts and failing to turn this around within 3 years in a deep rebuild.

  • CJM

    What is head scratching about what I wrote above? It’s literally just commenting on who Minaya has drafted and making a point that the draft is a crap shoot.

  • CJM

    That was a good article you linked. Thanks for that.

  • TPT

    nothing at all man im just having fun with you ok? your a good guy and you love your Mets thats whats counts no matter what is written by anyone we love our Mets

  • Monix

    Apparently only 2 people know anything about baseball- The GM of the White Sox and “agetting” on metsmerized blog.
    Granderson = proven commodity
    Abreu=unproven commodity on cash-strapped team. Not rocket science here genius regardless of how I feel about either guy.

  • CJM

    Ok haha. No worries. Thanks for the compliment.

  • mad met

    Ok but we need one more of those in the lineup please thank you

  • jason bay

    Nice job avoiding the relevant facts.

  • Hodges14

    Beltran was not a reckless or terrible contract.

  • Tommy Med

    nimmos gotta be an all-star type player then

  • Monix

    OK, can you please make 50 more posts professing your love for Jose Abreu after five weeks. I don’t think we read it the first 49 times.

  • agetting

    Granderson is absolutely not a proven commodity given his BA the past few seasons and his power production at YANKEE stadium. Pretty hard to argue this considering his batting average is .175 start to the season. He’ll need to hit about .290 the rest of the way to hit about .250 on the season. Not gonna happen

  • Hodges14

    Is this JimmyBX?

  • Monix

    I love how he compares college players to Nimmo and fails to mention how old Nimmo was when he was picked.

  • Tommy Med

    Brydak was a good move? He was a horror show and those other moves were more luck than anything . Marlon Bryd is a once in a blue moon

  • DrDooby

    While Reyes was on the DL with the pulled hamstring ?

    But seriously, this was his one big mistake of this tenure so far.

  • DrDooby

    No, Omar was axed after a 78-win season. The 70-win season came the year before.

  • DrDooby

    Good luck with that boycott…
    Next, target global warming by using your bike a bit more…

  • Metfan9876

    I’m sorry but there’s just no way Omar deserves credit for Alderson’s trades. Yes, they were players that he left behind that were traded but Alderson sought out the talent he got and its complete speculation that Omar would have gotten the same players.

    And if we’re going to name Omar’s high upside prospects ( deGrom and Familia and Harvey — Familia has been inconsistent and while I love Harvey, I want to see how he is once he comes back from injury ) that he left behind, then we should also name some of Sandy’s high upside prospects:
    Nimmo
    Plawecki
    Smith
    Wheeler
    Syndergaard
    Herrera
    Whalen, ect.
    However, the job by Sandy is not done. The bullpen has been a disaster ( Although I think the surplus of arms will fix this ) and the offense has been a downright joke. The starting pitching has been fine and he has supplemented it with his own acquisitions as well as using Omar’s.

    Personally, I don’t like to take Omar or Sandy’s side, though. The future success of the Mets will depend on a combination of what Omar has left behind and what Sandy’s prospects and future acquisitions amount to. Hopefully, Omar’s leftovers continue to prosper ( and guys like deGrom start to prosper ) and the Mets can couple that with some of Sandy’s prospects who I also hope prosper ( Wheeler, Syndergaard, Montero, ect. ).

    Anyway, LGM tonight!

  • Monix

    OK I’ll break it down even simpler for you.
    Granderson=guy who hit 40 HR’s in MLB
    Abreu=guy who never ever played in MLB.
    Which do you think a team with owners like the Wilpons is going to go with?
    Putting that on Alderson is stupid.

  • Not4

    Gotta be kidding me! Yeah, Sandy and virtually every other GM who passed on them. You related to Sherman?

  • agetting

    but plenty of players have hit plenty of homers in the major leagues and sucked after receiving a contract and going to a new team. Case and point Jason Bay. He was a proven commodity. You need to consider everything. The most important thing to evaluate is risk reward. Yes Abreu was more of a risk but he’s younger but he’s also hungrier. He’s got a lot more to prove than Curtis Granderson. He’s hungry to prove he’s big time, Granderson is just collecting his pay-check. IMO..the risk-reward made way more sense to sign Abreu. Especially a guy that could generate significant fan interest and put fans in the seats? Hard to say my point is completely irrelevant.

  • TPT

    while Reyes was on the DL? well go sell that to the Blue Jays and go see what Miami got in return? and also i honestly do not believe there’s one other GM who would let a player of Reyes’ magnitude walk free not one

  • seldomused

    You’re dense. Read my post and stop putting words in my mouth.

    I never said that those moves prevented us from making the playoffs. I never said Minaya was a bad GM. All I said is that Sherman is focusing on the negatives of Alderson and only the positives of Minaya. I’m commenting on Sherman’s piece, not on who was a better GM.

  • DrDooby

    And rightfully so. It’s time for significant progress at the major league level. Though – and this is a difference – this doesn’t mean 90-wins / playoffs or bust.
    Because it’s not only about 2014 but even moreso, 2015 to 2020…

  • Monix

    I agree with you about Abreu. I would’ve used the money on Grandy and Colon for Abreu and Hammels. But I can’t slam Sandy for not doing it. It had the risk of Abreu being another Ike Davis for $60M on a team that obviously was more broke than let on about publicly. I think if the Mets were already winning, then a risk like that is easier to take.

  • DrDooby

    And how many GMs are working or owners needing bridge loans ?

    Again, not maximizing Reyes value – for now – is the one obvious mistake by this FO. Wasting money on Frank Francisco comes a distant 2nd.

  • Hotstreak

    Fair asnd balanced. Another good post.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Any fair minded fan knows that Omar was undercut in many ways by the Wilpons. The Bay signing was the 2nd option which was forced because the Wilpons cheaped Omar on Holliday. They also short changed him in the IFA market (and to an extent in the draft) which meant building for the future was impossible.

    However, as I have stated, you also have to stop blaming Alderson for Wright’s contract. You want to absolve Minaya of Bay (and rightfully so) because ownership said no to another player. Well you also have to absolve the present GM of Wright since it was ownership (Wright bff Jeffy) who wanted him extended.

    But that is only if you are a fair minded person.

  • I don’t like Alderson so why would I get back to you? Take a deep breath, dude.

  • StopHatinYo

    Yeah, because Ex-pose were a pillar of success before Omar arrived

    LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

  • beers22

    yes, I’m not sure if elsid is referring to the hall vote or sherman’s point about Sandy. If it’s the first, yes, it makes him wrong. If it’s the point about Sandy, no, it doesn’t necessarily make him wrong, but I’m not wasting my time or a thought on his argument knowing he’s a buffoon. I don’t respect him enough to care what he has to say.

  • Frank Francisco

    My point is that we don’t yet know if he busts or turns into a star either way so its impossible to judge Sandy on Nimmo yet

  • StopHatinYo

    Judging by attendance, PLENTY are boycotting.

  • Hotstreak

    Look at the age factor. Jose’ Aberu was always labled a High Reward Risk which is a smart investment. The concern was his average BUT NOT POWER.

    Grandy at 33 is the type of FA with injury and coming off a shortened poor year wich was a HIGHER RISK. Going from Yankee Stadium with short RF to Citi Field had him pegged for about 25 hrs. ceiling IF all went well.

    Go for the younger HIGHER CEILING GUY.

  • Taskmaster4450

    What prospects did the Cards get for “trading” Reyes?

    Perhaps getting the picks might not be a bad deal considering the Cards got Wacca and Stephen Piscotty (ranked #7 in their system) as compensation.

    Maybe the two picks the Mets got for Reyes work out better than trading for players, especially a rental player.

  • StopHatinYo

    You should cease and desist from using that avatar of a player’s number if you want to discuss sports as an adult. Are you 15 years old??
    Let’s forget the fact he’s one of MLB’s biggest underachievers over the last 4 years…….

    You’re sorely lacking a sense of humor. TheVoiceOfReason would think you need to lighten up a little

    LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

  • Taskmaster4450

    Was Reyes on the DL when the Marlins traded him? Was he on the DL two weeks before he signed with the Marlins?

    Didnt the Cardinals let Pujols walk for free….I think he is more magnitude than Reyes.

  • StopHatinYo

    Nice try, liar lol

    You know you’re OWNED when you have to resort to lies

  • Monix

    I don’t know about you guys but my gaydar went off the first time I saw Sherman on MLB Network.

  • Taskmaster4450

    It is actually impossible to fully judge Omar’s reign yet. He still has a few IFAs in the pipeline who could change the entire perception of his tenure.

    But yes, until a guy busts out, give the bust or star talk a rest. He is in A ball at 21. He has time (to go either direction).

  • StopHatinYo

    It’s an honor to be compared to such a knowledgable Met fan with the sharpest sense of humor and wit this side of MetsBlog lol

  • StopHatinYo

    Why are they great trades? Delgado was a proven superstar. Wheeler and D’Arnaud are nobodies. They haven’t done ANYTHING at the big league level.

  • Hotstreak

    I said both OMAR and SA bear the reponsibility Yes BOTH OF THEM for deferring to the Wilpons because it was under their watch.

    Omar is already tarred and featherd because of the Bay contract yes Ollie and Castillio (not major dollars.) I was for Ollie signing as I did not want Derek Lowe.

    As I stated and you did too: SA coined the tem 2nd generation contracts (except for Beltran and Holiday) are usually big mistakes.

  • StopHatinYo

    Omar didn’t whiff on Harvey, did he?

  • Hotstreak

    By the way I commend SA for not signing Stephen Drew.

  • CJM

    I don’t know man. You got me there!

  • StopHatinYo

    Can’t we all just get along????

    #FireBalderson
    #BringBackOmar

  • Brian D.

    He’s referring to Omar’s work as a scout with Texas, and his first tenure with the Mets in the early 2000’s.

    Omar is linked to players like Sammy Sosa, Juan Gonzalez, Nelson Cruz and Jose Reyes. He also drafted all stars with the Expos in Ian Desmond and Chad Cordero.

    BTW, Humber was drafted before Omar came in actually.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    I tried to stay away from this post because i knew the “SANDY LOVERS” would be out in full force but man oh man is it hysterical to read their comments defending Alderson…tsk tsk tsk…

    #SandyLoversUnited

  • Brian D.

    For the record, he was the assistant Gm of the Mets from 98-01.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    LoL

  • Connor O’Brien

    It’s quite a stretch to give Minaya credit for the trades Alderson made. I{f you’re going to do that, you should also give him credit for all of Alderson’s draft picks. After all, Minaya could have signed broken league rules and had them taken away, right? But he didn’t…
    I don’t think Alderson should be punished for utilizing the pieces left over. He was able to recognize the value of Niese, Gee, Murphy and others and hold on to them. Of course Minaya deserves the majority of the credit for signing those players (although it was SA that signed Dickey to that team-friendly deal), but there is also something for recognizing the talent that’s there and not throwing it away. Minaya made a bunch of terrible decisions with young players to fill immediate MLB needs. Who says he wouldn’t have done that? Sherman, while his article is mostly rational, misses the point on this area. Yes, Minaya deserves the bulk of the credit, but really… he’s punishing Alderson for keeping some players he was given. That’s completely unfair, especially when the new guy is under the financial constraints he is…

  • Connor O’Brien

    Yes, extending one of the top third baseman in baseball to a deal for less than market value…
    But seriously, it’s not the amazing steal, but it’s not a terrible deal at all, especially when you consider the off the field benefits you get from Wright.

  • beers22

    Especially when comparing a pitcher to a position player. Not saying Fernandez will flame out, but I could name numerous pitchers who looked like they were awesome Cy Young candidates for the rest of their careers for the first 2-3 years of their ML career, and then flamed out (sometimes due to injury) or just become mediocre pitchers. Mark Prior of course being the classic example. On the other hand, positions players that make it, usually have more consistent careers even though they don’t have the same amount of buzz that a good pitcher does early in their career.

  • LIKayLGM

    Sarcasm is not your friend, we ARE in agreement

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    The draft was different when Omar was drafting players. There was no strict designated money for picks as they are now. And some teams could not select players that refused to play for them because they wanted record breaking money.

    The Wilpons didnt give Minaya money to compete in the draft so he instead went w/QUANTITY in the intl’ amateur market. Not signing bonus babys but under the radar guys like Lagares, Familia etc

    Now the draft is controlled Agents and players cant dictate where they go and how much money they will receive.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Hopefully Flores puts any Drew talk to rest.

  • LIKayLGM

    Clearly owners can’t fire themselves, but thanks for pointing out the obvious Tommie

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Guess which GM has 9 Straight losing seasons as a GM???

    Sandy Alderson!!!!

    Now explain the Logic that says he is a good GM CURRENTLY…..

    I’ll wait………………………………………………………….

    #SandyLover ;D

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    I wouldnt say Omar sank the ship all that credit goes to the Wilpons. Omar isnt and wasnt the reason they owed people money.

    But Omar at the end did a bad job. And yes Sandy sucks

  • Connor O’Brien

    It definitely is a whole different system than it was then, both international and domestic. A lot of teams have really changed their strategies due to this. It would be interesting to see how Minaya has shaped San Diego’s strategy. We don’t really know the details of his role, but I wonder how much influence he has had over how they approach all this.

  • Brian D.

    Terrible comparison. The Cardinals were in the midst of a championship run that season – They would be insane to trade Pujols at the deadline.

    However, the Mets weren’t planning on competing as the trade for Beltran shows. And since they also didn’t plan on keeping Jose, trading him should have been an easy call.

    Furthermore, Reyes was NOT on the DL at the time of the trading deadline. While he went on earlier that month, he was back for some time before the deadline ended.

    Also, this was not the only opportunity they had to get a significant return for him. They could have dealt him before the season started, or they could have moved him earlier on in the season while his value was at his peak – There were rumors swirling around that the Rays had serious interest, for example

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Actually the Padres were good when Sandy got hired. You should research that. And his 1st 2 seasons were OK there until he gutted the ship and brought in his own people and gave Bruce Bochy away to the SF Giants for nothing.

  • Connor O’Brien

    He was not the general manager.

  • Connor O’Brien

    Every GM inherits something of value.

  • Not4

    Too funny. Was in such a rush that I missed it LlKay, my bad. So the statement still stands, just misdirected at the person who was making the same statement.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Wright is a 1st basemen???

    Damn no wonder we didnt sign Jose Abreu. lol

    And really??? OFF THE FIELD BENEFITS

    Bwahahahahahahahaha….Now that was a pathetic attempt at justifying the 140M deal Wright received. Many Sandy supporters said Sandys plan would be to stay away from signing players to BIG 2nd generation contracts essentially paying them for past success and not what they expect the player to produce.

    Wasnt that the knock on Omar???

  • Connor O’Brien

    It would be worrying if they didn’t see some progress this year. If they didn’t, SA won’t be fired, but he will be under major pressure for a big improvement next year. This year isn’t the make or break year, more so the one that makes you think that it’s not going to be five years of more mediocrity.

  • Not4

    Been through this so many times, but if you are really interested, I’ll find some time over the weekend and explain my reasoning. Thanks showing your willingness to listen.

  • Hotstreak

    I think you meant 3B not 1B. Yes DW brings alot off the field. So does Grandy and so did Beltran. Yes the contact was less than Market.

    However in a rebuilding program to have a guy approaching thirty commited for eight years knowing at best three years to be competitive. That means at best DW will be 33 to contibute in a meaningful way. At 35 unless Chipper your skills erode. On top of that DW has shown at best to be a complimentry type player the last five years. Even in good years he has hotstreaks and cold streaks,

    The contract was a bargin given at the wrong time. Anytime a player has an eight year deal in his thirties and it represents 25% of payroll diminished by Madoff is not a smart investment.

    I did not even mention the return in ML ready prospects we could have gotten.

  • Brian D.

    Hey, anything is possible, but this scenario is not likely. Here’s why.

    In trade talks, draft pick compensation is going to be factored in. Therefore, the team trading away the star is going to have to get back way more value than the future two picks are worth. Otherwise, there would be no reason for that team to even think of making the trade,

    Also, prospects with a few years under their belts are more of a “sure thing” than players straight out of the draft. A top prospect in above A ball, for example, has a much better chance of working out than a good prospect in the draft..

  • Connor O’Brien

    I said 3B…

  • BadBadLeroyBrown
  • Connor O’Brien

    “top third baseman”
    Players with skillsets similar to Wright’s more often see it translate better with age. Sure, he won’t be the 6-7 WAR player he was when he is now, but an above average starter into his later years is definitely not out of the question. With the way free agency is going, Wright may actually be underpaid or close to it when he is in his late thirties when compared to the rest of the market.

  • Connor O’Brien

    The knock on Omar was signing mediocre players to contracts they never came close to deserving. Perez was always far from a sure thing every time he went to the mound. Castillo’s game was never that great to begin with (maybe it was in his younger years). Of course I give Minaya a mulligan or two for free agents because hey, it’s baseball. Unexpected things happen. But then the Jason Bay contract and so on kind of piled on.

  • Guest
  • Connor O’Brien

    Yes, Wright being injured two times in three years = made of glass
    And ABSOLUTELY YES he is underpaid. You cannot get that type of production for such a low yearly salary.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Underpaid lol

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    castillo got what 5-6mill per year lol and he was one of the premier 2B at the time.

    You guys make it seem like he gave Castillo a 100M dollar deal

  • Connor O’Brien

    Try $6 million a year. Again, it’s not like that contract crippled the team, though. I can give Minaya a free pass on two or so deals because it would be unfair to look at it any other way. But it was more than that combined with the mismanagement of young players.
    Minaya is on my dream team front office, just not as a GM.

  • Hotstreak

    You must have edited it.

  • Connor O’Brien

    Oh yeah I did whoops… Forgot I had done that

  • Brian D.

    So who would you have gone with as you’re 2Bman that season?

  • Connor O’Brien

    You mean for those four seasons? Someone better. Over the span of that contract, there were 25 players with higher WARs than Castillo, many of whom were paid less.

  • Brian D.

    In 2008, who do you go with at second base instead of him? I’m asking for a specific player.

  • LIKayLGM

    That’s ok, the “Sandy Lovers” are equalized with the Omar idolizers that have selective memories that can justify anything.

  • Mikey

    We all said this two years ago…Glad to see Sherman finally catch up to us!

  • Brian D.

    You’re exactly right lol.

    Welcome back Metsie!

  • Connor O’Brien

    Here is the link to 25 better alternatives. 25 SPECIFIC names:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=2b&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2010&month=0&season1=2007&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

    He also could’ve gotten creative with someone like Furcal at second. There are your alternatives.

  • TPT

    hello ???ARE YOU HOME? ummm you trade for prospects of your choice like SYNDERGAARD in the Dickey trade and hello? Beltran was traded for a minor league prospect named Wheeler

  • Connor O’Brien

    Is a GM supposed to completely clean house of every player left over?
    Look at ANY GM. There is ALWAYS something left of value.

  • Connor O’Brien

    I don’t think there is a “proper” way to rebuild. It’s different with every situation.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    LoL…Its hilarious watching you come out of hiding to defend Sandy Alderson.

    Question Connor Shouldnt we clean house on Alderson after the records listed below since he has been our GM???

    Missed you bro 😉 lol

  • metsfansince64

    How do we know the WIlpons didn’t give Omar money for the draft? I’ve always thought it was Omar’s philosophy. Omar was pretty much given leeway to do whatever he wanted when he came in, with a huge payroll, and what he wanted was to WIN NOW. He bought aging, overpriced players, sometimes giving up draft choices to acquire them (not that that tended to matter, since the players he gave up largely turned out to be lousy); the Mets consistently spent less on the draft during his tenure than any other team, and Omar put his assets into international players who are far less predictable and projectable, since they are mainly 16 year olds (it’s hard enough to project a 20 year old). And they were expensive – huge signing bonuses for many of these kids.

  • Brian D.

    And how many of those players were available? How much would we have to give up to get them too?

    Were the Dodgers actually shopping Furcal?

  • Connor O’Brien

    “Question Connor Shouldnt we clean house on Alderson after the records listed below since he has been our GM???”
    Was that supposed to make sense? Lol I think you missed some punctuation in there. (edit: I guess you edited it to post the graphic? That’s a great use of time)

    Back into hiding for me. Two more AP Test, SATs, and ACTs! Yipeee!

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Omar needed to be fired when he was, just like Alderson needs to Be FIRED NOW!!!

    😉 No selective memory….I just see someone pointing out the obvious. The players Omar left are having a greater impact on this teams success than the guys Alderson brought in…and this is including the high priced guys he signed and the supposed stud prospects he acquired.

    Its the truth and sometimes the truth hurts

  • Connor O’Brien

    I was not a secretary for the Dodgers so I have no idea. There were better trade options out there. The answer is never to sign an overrated player to a bloated contract, unless of course, it’s what puts you over the top.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    David Wright, Curtis Granderson and Bartolo Colon say Hi!!!

    They sure didnt put us over the top

  • TPT

    THANK YOU how short the memories are of the people on here

  • Connor O’Brien

    All of them are at or below market value.
    And wow! I didn’t know you knew them. Are they with you right now?? Hi!!

  • metsfansince64

    Just because one is critical of Omar, doesn’t mean that one loves Sandy. Personally, I think they’ve both done a terrible job overall. Just in different ways.
    Omar, by throwing money at washed-up veterans and ignoring the domestic
    draft; Sandy, by his rigidity in terms of evaluating talent and over-relying on
    statistics, to say nothing of his patent inability to bring in the talent needed
    to fill in gaps, both in bullpen and where there are very obvious needs
    (cough) Tejada (cough).

    If the Met ownership really wanted to be successful, they would have paid whatever it took to wrest away the GM of either the Rays or the Marlins. And
    it still would have probably been cheaper than what they’re paying the
    current “brain trust triad”. Blech.

    Difference, though, is that Omar left behind an overpaid, underachieving major league team and a very poor minor league system. Sandy and his crew do seem to have developed a very impressive minor league system. But it’ll still be years before we know if that translates to success at the major league level. And they may be long gone before then, because at the major league level, where it counts, they’ve done a terrible job so far.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Yeah RUN RUN when Aldersons record as a GM is brought up….lollollollollol

    See how they RUN when you bring up hardcore facts that are etched in stone. Cant use any SABR stat to clean up that mess, eh? lol

    Answer the question Doogie Howser.

    Shouldnt ALderson be fired for not improving this team??? after 4years on the job at that.

  • TPT

    SA still hasnt been able to put 4 million people in the seats in one year like Omar and nor has he been able to go from 74 wins to 97 the most in the majors in just two years as GM …and he never will

  • TPT

    spot on

  • Joey D.

    Hi Metsie,

    Good to have you back old buddy. You know Sherman, he needed to step into the way back machine so Mr. Peabody could have him get the record straight.

  • Connor O’Brien

    I would never purposefully dodge your question my dear friend…
    No, he should not be fired. The farm system has improved and now we are seeing an influx of young players, products of both Minaya and Alderson.
    You say numbers can deceive. Why does that not apply now? He wasn’t brought here to win immediately, but to change the philosophy of the entire organization while trying to work with the financial constraints. Four years is very short for a rebuilding process, especially one with financial limitations.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Thats the thing you state Omar left behind a poor minor league system yet guys like

    Niese, Gee, Mejia, Harvey, Familia, DeGrom, Germen, Flores, Matz, Robles, Lara, Puello etc etc all came from that system.

    So I wouldnt say the system was poor. Id say it didnt have any big time studs w/the exception of Harvey and even he was underrated by scouts.

    However you are right both did a terrible job but at least Omars teams were watchable. When you saw them play at the very least you thought you had a chance to win and compete.

    Both did a horrible job in their own way.

    Facts still remain….This teams best and most successful players today are Omars guys.

    But I think this has less to do with saying Omar did a great job and more to do with how bad a job Alderson is doing

  • Connor O’Brien

    We don’t know for sure how much they rely on statistics and how much they rely on scouting. Most sabr people like scouting as well, but want to replace traditional stats with sabermetric ones. Saying they over rely on statistics probably isn’t fair to say as definitively as you did, unless of course, you work in the Mets front office.

  • Joshua Eichenbaum

    Sandy is by no means a great GM, but he has been dealt a perennial losing hand in having the Wilpons as team owners. He’s had his back to the wall and nowhere near enough money to make immediate contributions. And to the point about none of his draft picks making the majors yet… He has drafted primarily high school-level players. It takes a truly exceptional high school talent to get to the MLB in just 3 years, and unfortunately none of the people he has picked have been that kind of talent. (Nimmo and Smith are looking good though.) Obviously Sandy is going to need to start putting a winning team on the field soon, but once again he has basically been handcuffed by the Wilpons and has only had the money to pursue risky mid-level free agents.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    It doesnt apply now Because wins and losses dont deceive.

    They are the end product everything in between can deceive but not the results. Those my friend are infallible, either you won or you lose. Very black and white no grey areas.

    P.S. I dont see an influx of young players doing anything special other than Lagares. Mejia was until his 2bad starts but there is no influx you overstate.

  • Joey D.

    Hi Connor,

    Focus your attention on those scholastic exams to help quantify your college entrance stats and don’t worry about the Mets and their stats – they will still be here when the tests are over.

    Good luck, however, I suspect for you these exams are going to be a breeze!

  • Connor O’Brien

    An influx of players are on the team or close to reaching the team. That was not the case when Alderson took over.
    The reason this has taken so long, in my opinion, is because the situation here had two processes: strip the team to what’s needed, and then to build it back up. The cutting took a while, but people expected immediate results when they hadn’t even stripped off the dead weight yet! That’s not fair!

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Lol at market value….Yeah at the time Beltran, Santana,Castillo and Jason Bay etc were market value.Everyone loved the deals at the time. Not all panned out hence the uproar.

    And I didnt see Omar getting any mulligans for those signings so why should Sandman Alderson

  • Hotstreak

    I grant you Omar said you can’t rebuild in New York. However if SA signed Jose’ Aberu and traded for an adequate defensive SS at .260/.340 then that is the way to go. Definately extending DW was a mistake. We have Flores and Matz and others. We could have rebuilt with prospects trading DW that is back then when DW was 29 top prodpect (top 50 BA).

  • El PanchVilla

    He knew what he was walking into…working for criminals. Save it…

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    You have no idea what you are talking about.

    He was not given leeway to do whatever he wanted if that was the case he wouldve spent more in the draft and he would have signed Holliday instead of Jason Bay, And those are just a few instances

    Omar Minaya didnt give out a lot of huge signing bonuses to intl amateur free agent signings. He used a different approach, he went with QUANTITY over perceived QUALITY.

    FYI the highest paid intl free agent signing by the Mets ever was an Alderson signing NOT an Omar signing.

  • The owners did the same crap to Phillips and McIlvaine long before Omar and Sandy.

  • Phoenix Met

    Metsie!! Welcome back sir!

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Alderson couldve stripped off the dead weight in year 1 like Boston and Houston did.

    Instead he attempted to give the perception that they were trying to compete so fans would keep coming. Unfortunately for him fans didnt come.

    It was all a shell game

  • TPT

    HELLO AND WAKE UP PEOPLE ..”Not quite right. Minaya spent what Jeff and Fred Wilpon gave him to spend. In some cases, Minaya was INSTRUCTED by Jeff to spend on specific free agents — Jason Bay is a prime example. Further, what was Minaya supposed to do? As is the complaint now, Minaya came into a situation where the Mets had a very minor league organization — one that didn’t have many MLB-ready assets. Minaya did what he could to start the process of building a productive farm system, leveraging his contacts, knowledge, and salesmanship to acquire young talent in Latin America. He also took gambles on high-reward amateurs in the draft, such as Mike Pelfrey. Sure, hindsight is 20/20, and you can say what you want about Pelfrey today. But when Pelfrey finished his Wichita State career, he was hands-down, the #1 pitching prospect in America, as well as the most polished — he fell down to the Mets pick because Scott Boras was his agent and was expected to demand a king’s ransom to sign. Minaya drafted him, signed him, and had him in the bigs within a year and a half. Considering that the Mets were on the fast-track, it was the right move at the right time — a no-brainer, since the one thing the Mets had that other teams didn’t, was cash.

    Did Minaya really “spend wildly”? He spent plenty, to be sure — because again, that was what the Mets had as an advantage over other teams. He had no trade chips in the upper minors, but he did have cash, and he used it to sign players to fill holes at the MLB level that the farm system wasn’t able to produce quickly enough. And looking at Minaya’s record of signings, it really wasn’t all that bad — it was pretty good, overall. Everyone loves to point out the stupidity of the Mets bidding against themselves for Oliver Perezand Luis Castillo, but selectively forget the brilliance of picking up R.A. Dickey, Jose Valentin, Fernando Tatis, Damion Easley, Chad Bradford, Darren Oliver, and Pedro Feliciano (among others) from the scrap heap. In terms of on-field performance, the Pedro Martinez signing wasn’t great, but there’s no denying that it was more of a symbol of the Mets’ intent to win, and it led to the team’s ability to also sign Carlos Beltran and a host of other players (both MLBers and amateurs).

    Minaya also spent on significant free agents who produced as expected, such as Moises Alou, Billy Wagner, and Francisco Rodriguez, and he — along with the Wilpons — was part of the decision to hand over a big chunk of money to Johan Santana. At the time, how many people were against the idea of acquiring Santana and giving him that huge contract? It’s amazing to me how many people also selectively forget that when Minaya was “spending wildly,” the Mets were a perennial playoff contender with deep pockets. Should they have held back on spending for what appeared at the time to be the “final piece”? There’s no doubt that the spending didn’t make sense after the 2009 season, but prior? Let’s just say that hindsight is 20/20.”

  • TPT

    TRY ARGUING WITH THIS SEEMS TO ME EVERYONE OF OUR BEST YOUNG PLAYERS IN THIS ORGANIZATION IS A DIRECT RESULT OF OMAR NOT SA ……Does Omar Minaya deserve all the blame for the Mets current rebuilding? Does he deserve any credit for anything in this process that can be described as positive?

    In a recent Q&A over at the Mets’ official blog, Matt Cerrone said the following:

    It’s worth noting that Minaya kept David Wright and Jose Reyes, despite several opportunities to trade them. He is also responsible for drafting Harvey, Dillon Gee, Ike Davis, Lucas Duda, Jon Niese, Ruben Tejada, Juan Lagares, Bobby Parnell, Daniel Murphy and Josh Satin, as well as acquiring minor leaguers Jeurys Familia, Jenrry Mejia, Wilmer Flores, Cesar Puello, Jacob deGrom, Josh Edgin, Steven Matz, Jeff Walters and Kirk Nieuwenhuis.

  • Ohhhh yeah, that’s the post that later has my interview with Omar in it.

  • TPT

    oh really? i need to go back and read your interview with Omar then and ok kudos to you then

  • thanks, let me know what you think.

  • mets4lyfe

    AT the same time, how much credit can you give Alderson for making trades with GMs that were clearly desperate?

  • Brian D.

    You don’t have to be a Dodgers secretary to find out. Were there any rumors or any credible source saying he was available? If not, then you can’t say it was a realistic possibility.

    You keep saying that there were better options out there, yet you cannot name one.

    You’re just giving vague answers, and using hindsight. Castillo was a solid player before 08 and there weren’t many good options available that offseason. Omar was also under a lot of pressure to win now, so going with a scrub wasn’t ideal solution either. While it looks like a bad decision now, you have to realize he was in a difficult situation.

  • TPT

    well heres the link to that article but i dont see the interview…http://www.metstoday.com/9119/13-14-offseason/omar-minaya-myth-vs-reality/

  • Connor O’Brien

    He was trying to give the message of competing because of impatient fans formerly of the so-called “CORE” would not stand for a rebuilding. It’s a catch-22 sometimes with New York fans…

  • Just_Da_damaja

    so basically, he was more concerned with the perception of building a winner than actually building a winner…further prolonging the process and losing more fans as a result.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    let me help u with that.,..

    there were 2 free-agent 2B following 2007 season that had semi-decent seasons..

    kaz matsui
    luis castillo

    the mets actually offered david eckstein a contract and was turned down. he wanted to play SS.

    so between kaz matsui and luis castillo, who do u think we would’ve signed ?

  • Just_Da_damaja

    among 3B how many have 138 mil contracts?

  • TPT

    hmmmm he sure does ask like how? a lot lol ..but i found the interview eye opening actually… it was excellent thank you for that

  • Just_Da_damaja

    no….

    not trading David Wright to the Rockies for Nolan and Willin Rosario after 2010 season was their biggest mistake.

  • no prob. It was awesome, was part of my senior thesis, actually. He’s a really nice guy.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    it was 4/24 for castillo…

  • Just_Da_damaja

    Aloe was 2nd in MLB in hitting against LHP in 2006.
    #1 was David Wright.

    they were trying to even out the lineup after Nady was traded.

    Had Alou stayed healthy, it would’ve made perfect sense.

    he hit .344 with 15 HR in half a season for 7 mil that year, and finished the year healthy.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    Sandy just gave Curtis Granderson 65 million dollars after coming off his worst year, and being injured…

    and that was after giving Bartolo Colon, not exactly someone u would call ‘healthy” a 2 year 20 mil contract..

    and that was after giving Chris Young, someone who has had injures the past few years, 7.5 mil…

    and that was after giving Frank Francisco, who had been injured in Toronto, a 2 year 12 mil contract…

  • Just_Da_damaja

    u mean like he did Fernando Tatis ?

    o wait, that didnt happen…

  • Just_Da_damaja

    but when fans make “Los Mets” jokes and throw in some spanish lingo, its all good.

    gotcha..

  • Captain America

    Only Sherman would say….
    Minaya’s Mets brought in a shipload of players who would reach the majors such as Joe Smith, Jose Quintana, Ike Davis, Josh Stinson, Josh Satin, Maikel Cleto, Collin McHugh, Kirk Nieuwenhuis, Wilmer Flores, Jeurys Familia, Jenrry Mejia, Gonzalez Germen and Ruben Tejada.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    hmmm…how did they get Jose Fernandez, Saltamachhia, Casey McGehee, Adeiny Hechavarria, Nathan Eovaldi

    AFTER Sandy became GM?

    Please explain

  • Just_Da_damaja

    And Sandy with a limited payroll has commited us to

    Wright – 20 mil
    Granderson – 15 mil
    Colon – 10 mil
    Young 7.5 mil

    52.5 mil

    almost all 4 are underperforming…and they make up 80% of the payroll…

  • Yeah that’s exactly what I said.

    Gotcha too.

  • Captain America

    Last time mets were successful and had a solid GM was . . . . Frank Cashen.

    Here is how he explained it:
    “(It was tough in the beginning. Those first four years, 1980 to1983, we finished next to last twice and then last twice. It looked like we were going backwards. But don’t let that fool you—1980 was the beginning of something big. From that season on there was a different feel. We were rebuilding—out with the old, in with the new. We put a new face on the team even as we lost, and we began to put the pieces together. One of the first things I did was sign Darryl Strawberry right out of Crenshaw High School in LA. We drafted him with the first pick of the draft in 1980. We signed Kevin Mitchell as an amateur free agent back then, believe it or not, and brought Mookie Wilson, Wally Backman and Hubie Brooks up from the minors that first year, too.)

  • Connor O’Brien

    No, you’re overcomplicating it. It’s possible to do two things in one year. 1) run a franchise and 2) put out a message.

  • Connor O’Brien

    Trade markets hadn’t been invented by 2007…

    Never grossly overpay for a player, unless it will for sure win you championships. Period.

  • Connor O’Brien

    I named 25 players.

  • Surprised Sherman didn’t say so far this season Alderson’s Mets are 0-17 while Minaya’s Mets are 16-0. But he probably forgot. I mean he did also forget to mention those other Mets that kept Alderson afloat like Pelfrey and what’s his name again the guy who was going to be the new leader of the Mets Ike Davis and let’s not leave Valdespin out or that SS everyone was raving about Ruben Tejada and of course how can we leave out that stud we let get away in Fernando Martinez.

    What I don’t get is how no one has brought up all the attempts Alderson made when he got here to trade away Harvey and Mejia and Familia and Flores and Murphy and Niese and Gee rather than keep them and further develop them. I mean they are not Alderson’s guys so why would he have any interest in them.

    …sigh

    But hey LGM!
    Lets Go Minaya!

  • Connor O’Brien

    In Beltran’s case, Alderson worked the market to make the Giants desperate. In the Toronto case, there wasn’t exactly much of a rush.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    WRONG
    .
    Jeff Wilpon set the deadline

    http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sports/features/11260/index4.html

    The Mets were about to stage their annual Winter Caravan, a somewhat corny old-school promotional event in which most of the team visits city schools, hospitals, and business offices to kick off the start of season-ticket sales. On a Sunday evening, during another conference call with Delgado’s agent, WILPON demanded the first-baseman’s answer by the next day so as not to “interfere” with the Winter Caravan, Sloane says.

    “I’m not stupid enough to believe they were serious,” Sloane says, still angry. “I knew what they were trying to do, which is why I told Carlos that when you’re confronted by a bully, you hit him in the mouth.” Sloane delivered his punch on ESPN, which suddenly ran a report saying the Mets had withdrawn from the Delgado sweepstakes. At midnight Sunday, a stunned Jeff Wilpon, watching TV at home, called Minaya, who spent Monday re-entering the hunt. To no avail: On Tuesday, Delgado signed with Florida. “I don’t think he ever really wanted to be a Met,” Wilpon says.

    Perhaps not, though Sloane claims the Mets were “neck and neck” with the Marlins until the deadline was imposed. After starting the off-season by allowing Minaya free rein in the Leiter decision, Wilpon ended the winter as a large PRESENCE during the Delgado negotiations. “I encourage the ownership group to participate,” Minaya says. “If you’re the general manager, I believe you still have to run things by the owner. That’s the way it’s supposed to be.” Wilpon may function as a valuable brake on Minaya’s sometimes impetuous enthusiasm, but the division of labor between the two men is still evolving.

    Sorry champ, but it was Wilpon that meddled and goofed things up….

  • Just_Da_damaja

    Omar was the Asst GM and had a major say in the draft..

    sorry champ..

    but Omar is STILL the best GM we’ve had since Cashen…

  • Brian D.

    But how many of the players were available? And what would give up to get them?

  • CJM

    LOL excuses. Always excuses. Sorry, but Minaya was probably just a paper jockey during the GENIUS Steve Phillips’ tenure.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    which totally explains why we had Mike Jacobs, Frank Catalanatoo and Gary Mathews Jr in 2010 ?

    Omar absolutely had to deal with those problems..

    the travesty was that the wilpons were still cheap on IFA and Drafts BEFORE Madoff !

  • Mex_17

    Omar was an idiot with a giant payroll. Alderson is just a caretaker, and GMing “by the book” for a small market team. I mean, when you say that one of Alderson’s big signings is 45 year old journeyman Bartolo Colon, that says it all.

    The common denominator is the Wilpons are the worst owners in sports. They hate the NY Mets, they hate Met fans, they lost all their money in a ponzi scheme, and they are not putting a dime into this team. Not now, not ever.

    Until the Wilpons go away, we’ll never be good. It’s impossible.

  • NeedNewOwners

    Thanks for checking in, Mr Alderson. A glass of Kool Aid?

  • NeedNewOwners

    Wilpons are nothing but slumlord Moneychangers.

  • Captain America

    ??

  • Sylow59

    This is slowly becoming the stupidist place on Earth

  • Joey D.

    Hi Connor,

    Sorry, but it is a case of you over-simplifying it. Sterling Mets had already been bailed out of what would have been an impending step toward declaring bankruptcy before Sandy was brought in. The Wilpons’ concerns were more serious and much more immediate than the state of the team on the field. They had a tremendous
    amount of their economic future vested into the Mets and losing them would be a major financial hit. That has not changed in the near four years since.

    Sandy was hired because of his executive business management skills to keep Sterling Mets economically afloat. His past background in baseball was not in player management and he was not hired for that purpose in Oakland because one with no professional experience and understanding of baseball matters at the highest level is given anything remotely resembling that type of responsibility. That was done by experienced baseball executives if who were not professional players then were those who spent a lifetime associated with the game and who understood it as well as the smartest of players. Sandy became involved in the emerging and very demanding business ends that comes afterwards. And sabermetrics in time does not compensate for that
    lack of “conventional wisdom” and experience.

    His actions, his statements, his rationality since he became GM are all indicative of a business person trying to keep a corporation afloat during a time requiring downsizing, cutbacks and acceptance of business having to suffer. Corporations go through this and a sports
    franchise is not immune.

    A vision of rebuilding does not include signing the second fewest amount of draft picks in 2012 and not signing a second round selection because he wanted slot money – and the reason they wouldn’t meet that demand was because nobody was to be offered slot money and to do so for one would mean having to give in to others. That is not the action of one whose goal is to replenish a dried up farm system. That is just another action of one who is
    trying to cut back on spending due to the need to save money.

    I am afraid the belief that his priority, his main concern, the plan he envisioned to achieve as far as a long term goal to build a competitive and lasting ball club was just the end result of how to cut costs and achieve some sort of financial stability for Sterling Mets and nothing more. Those were his secondary concerns. His focus was keeping Sterling Mets from going under and being able to meet it’s debt payments by creating a shoestring budget that was adequate enough to accomplish that feat; that was his priority and the quality of the team and it’s future down the road would then be dependent upon what was left after that. Relying on a build up of young talent without the aid of the other options available is not a desirable route and one that is taken only by clubs that for whatever reasons they chose decide they do not want to spend. That includes instructing one’s baseball people to trade veteran players with value and expensive
    contracts for top prospects.

    In addition, Sandy did not even claim his job and vision was anything close to a comment you had said regarding money and the direction in how the team would be built. This is what you said:

    “He wasn’t brought here to win immediately, but to change the philosophy of the entire organization while trying to work with the financial constraints. Four years is very short for a rebuilding process, especially one with financial limitations.”.

    Those assumptions you make were addressed by Matt Cerrone in a blogger conference that December:

    “Matt Cerrone, Metsblog: In large part to the book Moneyball, there are some fans who believe you were hired to run the Mets as a small-market team. Could you explain why those fans are wrong, and maybe sum up your business philosophy, how you identify talent, allocate payroll, and that sort of stuff, as it pertains to the Mets.”

    Sandy’s response was not as you described:

    “Sandy Alderson: I wasn’t hired to apply a Moneyball approach to the New York Mets. I would not have accepted the position were I required to run the Mets on a shoestring budget. On the other hand, I did come in with my eyes wide open. I did recognize that there would be some payroll restrictions this year, keeping in mind that when everything’s said and done our payroll will probably be somewhere between 130 and 140 million dollars. We’ll probably be in the top four or five in all of baseball. So, the problem is not that we don’t have resources, the problem is that we have limited additional resources to spend this year. So, what you see today or what you’ve seen over the last two weeks shouldn’t necessarily be representative of what you see over the
    next two or three years. But we do have to get through a somewhat difficult period from a standpoint of our payroll because we already have most of it committed.

    “My business philosophy is that we want to be prudent under all circumstances but New York is not Oakland. As I said earlier, I wouldn’t be here if it were. So, we do have a long term strategy but that long term is focused on being as good as we can be today but also putting an infrastructure in place that will make us as good as we can be down the road. In terms of identifying talent, I think that we try to use a combination of tools. We do use statistical metrics but we also rely very heavily on scouting information. I think that was evidenced over the last week in the winter meetings. We had several people from our staff who are primarily stats-oriented but also do field work as well. But we also had an equal, in fact greater, number who are more subjective in their approach. And in some of the things that we did, particularly in the Rule 5 Draft, I think that scouting
    probably played a dominant role. We’d hate to be typecast after a few weeks and under the circumstances we have facing us for 2011, but we do have a certain reality we’re facing and trying to deal with it.”

    Why does not Sandy’s answer sound like anything you just mentioned? Connor, Sandy being more prudent in the way money would be spent does not mean working with financial constraints. He did not talk about a long-term rebuilding process being the only part of his blueprint.

    Please don’t say that he was not fully aware of how severe the fiscal situation was because Sandy is not stupid and the Search Committee would not have been doing their due diligence by not vesting fully into his ability to handle such problems he would be facing (it’s not like Ron Darling giving blanket approval to that loyalty letter).

    It was that way because Sandy is also well versed in the art of the double-talk. We now know through documented financial evidence that the financial situation was not what he made it out to be and that the
    team was not going to be able to be run in the manner he promised.

    So there is no baseball methodology plan in place as there is a decision that one can only do what economic matters allows one to do. If there was a serious
    rebuilding plan in place that had at least an equal priority with that of Sterling Mets, we would not be talking in terms of “payroll concentration” and certainly would have seen more moves made than we have seen.

    That is the reality of the situation, Connor. This is business we are looking at and how to remain owners of a franchise that in the future could be worth way over a billion dollars and without the overwhelming debt hanging over its shoulders. This is one thing that unfortunately no sabermetics or other forms of advanced statistical analysis can quantity except for one – those related to economics.

    Have you vetted into those economic statistical forecasts to make a counterpoint?

    Now, get back to your studying for the exams – those are much more important than our discussion about this and we can pick this up after the term is over.

  • ray sadecki

    hey leroy, better quit while you are ahead, the kid m is making you look pathetic and ignorant lol

  • joeyd1966

    Minaya also made Dickey the first cut in spring training despite pitching lights out. He was brought in for depth not because Omar saw something that would cause him to believe RA would turn into a top pf the rotation starter otherwise he makes the team out of spring training, not the first cut.

  • donobrien

    Damn. A really impressive analysis. Great job, Joey D.

  • mets4lyfe

    The only thing you can give him credit for is being patient. Almost any GM in his position would’ve pulled the trigger.

  • Joey D.

    Hi TPT,

    I’m glad to see more coming out and saying that. How could Omar been bankrupting the future as some accuse him of? Signing free agents and losing first round draft picks is a decision made based upon the state of the team and though one can argue about the wisdom of the free agents that were signed, at that time the Mets were contenders with holes needed to be filled. Does a team that might just be one player short pass up the opportunity that could push the it into post-season in order to save a first round draft pick?

    Losing one or two first year draft picks does not spell doom for any organization because there are still good pickings available in the subsequent rounds. It comes down to the organization’s scouts to be able to sense whom from all the vast raw talent available which ones have the best potential of becoming major leaguers.

  • Joey D.

    Hi donbrien,

    Thanks for the kind words. Not bad for one who when he voices this type of opinion is called a liar and a schmuck who doesn’t know anything by one whose name is not worth repeating.

    BTW, any relation to Connor? LOL

    There is no way any ownership would not at least attempt to prevent a team from falling from grace like this in a market like New York, especially when considering how it has led to such a serious disconnect with its fan base which is no good for their own economic self-interests.

    Baseball teams are not re-built in the manner suggested by arm chair general managers who do not have a corporation that could be worth well over a billion dollars to be concerned about. Franchises that are run in the manner of adopting a long-term rebuilding policy of waiting for the prospects to develop have been found to also be doing so because it was also found to be more profitable for them to field a loser than investing in higher priced players ala Pittsburgh. And again, we only know that goes so far as the operating budget because they do not want to suffer operating losses that would cut into their net profits from television, marketing and outside investments, the real source of their revenue.

  • Mikey

    Excuse me but thats what you guys suggested Sandy was here to do!!!

    Clean up the Mess Omar supposedly made of our Roster and Farm…
    Yet the Mess that is here now is not a product of Omar’s fumbling..It’s all of Sandy’s guys!

    Remember back three Can Kicks ago when 2014 was supposed to be the year we would all see Sandy’s great plan come to fruition?

    It’s 2014…Do you know where your championship is?

    Here I’ll hold the can for you…You Kick it again!

  • Mikey

    Thanks Phoenix!

  • Mikey

    The only reason why the Farm might possibly be ranked higher now than it was before is because of Syndergaard who cost you a Cy Young Pitcher to get…
    As for the drafted kids name one that is above A Ball that is projected for stardom?

  • Mikey

    Funny how the guy who constantly talks about the TRUTH in NUMBERS wants to ignore them when they don’t fit the narrative?

    The Met Records are not a failure of Sandy’s Policy it was because of some tape posted on the internet!

  • Mikey

    Name the INFLUX and who they are expected to replace please!
    Syndergaard (Not Drafted gave up a Cy Young Pitcher for him)…
    And who else?

  • Mikey

    Thanks Brian

  • Mikey

    Please for the love of god what has he rebuilt?
    Other than two corner outfield positions we are starting the same guys we started two years ago!

    Beltran for Granderson (Sandy)
    Reyes for Tejada (Omar) Flores (O)
    Bay for The Young Bros (Sandy)

    And for the record C Young is hitting .001 point better than Bay did in 2011! E Young way below!

    He hasn’t rebuilt Squat he has simply changed the name of the CRAP!

    Oh should also point out Travis is hitting only .200 to Thole’s .234 in 2012

  • DrDooby

    What went well for Omar:
    – adding Beltran, Pedro, El Duque, LoDuca, Wagner and Delgado to support the young duo of Reyes / Wright, plus veterans Floyd & Glavine to build a strong 2006 team and thus fulfillng the task of building a short term winner after several disappointing seasons before
    – find inexpensive under the radar talents like Maine, Ollie Perez, Easley, Valentin, Tatis, Oliver, Bradford and later Dickey who provided a lot of help
    – drafting several college players that helped quickly such as Gee, Parnell, Pelfrey, J.Smith, Murphy and to a lesser degree Duda and Ike
    – getting Matt Harvey in his final draft and the raw arms of Jake DeGrom and Steve Matz in his final two drafts
    – adding a lot of young Latin American depth to the system which is finally starting to contribute at the major league level
    What went poorly for Omar:
    – losing control of a payroll that was constantly in the Top 5 in the game under his watch; not only by at times overpaying for players close to their decline phase and making things worse by backloading those deals but often by re-signing productive veteran scrap heap finds to senseless extensions; sure, Bernie Madoff made things worse, but looking ahead, even without Madoff, the 2011 and 2012 Mets would have needed payrolls in the 175 million $ range to remain competitive given how their payroll was structured those years. And the Mets just aren´t the Yankees.
    – failing to address depth and making things worse by losing depth by losing early picks in later drafts especially in 2007 and 2009 for non-frontline free agents Alou & KRod, never trading for a prospect of some other teams but hurting depth with trades like the Putz deal costing the Mets a handful of solid upper level prospects and Joe Smith
    – failing to come up with a single impact bat during six years:
    For now, Daniel Murphy, a solid average 2bman, is the best bat added to the system. Want reasons for the offensive woes of this team ? There ya go. The best hopes for redemption are Juan Lagares and Wilmer Flores
    – putting several of his better prospects into positions to fail and thus damage their value both to the Mets and in trades; this by mainly rushing players into action. Carlos Gomez finally recovered years later, but damage was done to the careers of Pelfrey, F-Mart, Tejada, Ike, Mejia, Kunz and others
    Overall, Omar was neither a star architect of a strong & sustainable winning team nor the village idiot. His final Grade probably is a B-. Good early, weak later at the major league level. Mediocre early and good later at the minor league level.

    As for Sandy Alderson, he did well maneuvering through 3 years with both hands tied behind his back and succeeded putting ownership back on solid financial footing with the major league roster. Financially, he has set up this franchise well going forward as a potentially self-sustainable entity. Talent wise he generally failed putting together a winning team off the scrap heap. Which of course nobody would have been able to do. But he proved that he is not a genius far ahead of the Baseball peers.
    He has done well rebuilding the farm system into one of the better systems in Baseball. Something the Mets haven´t had since at least the mid 90s and in terms of depth the mid 80s. In parts due to good veteran for prospect trades and focusing more on upside than quick advancing to the majors. Odds are, his drafts will end up producing something of more offensive impact than Daniel Murphy. It´s way too early to evaluate his tenure. If you´re rebuilding from ground up with a bottom 10 in the majors payroll, you need between 5 and 7 years to be able to evaluate. We´re barely into year 4.
    The overall process has been sound mostly. Whether he & his assistants have picked up the right pieces remains to be seen…

  • Just_Da_damaja

    Lol hahaha

  • Just_Da_damaja

    Castillo got a 500k raise from 2007 to 2008.

    This was after another good season at the plate and field.

    What else u got ?

  • Just_Da_damaja

    And nowhere Is the word winning involved .

  • Just_Da_damaja

    Sent Connor back to his corner..
    Awesome !

  • ray sadecki

    Hi Doobie,
    s
    Glavine and Floyd were already Mets when Omar took over, but excellent analysis.

  • Hodges14

    It’s professional sports. Teams are supposed to try to win.

  • El PanchVilla

    I wouldn’t call Minaya an idiot as you can see he has an eye for talent.

  • Peter

    Stop it, his strategy is drafting high school players and molding them, they take longer to get to the majors. A majority of people on here where killing him for Nimmo, and now he is starting to breakout in a big way. The people Minaya signed where international free agents around 06 and 07, and Matz and Harvey. Even Billy Beane inherited a winning team. Minayas big problem was not having a balanced farm system at all levels by depleting it with bad trades, signing bad free agent contracts, he ends up having a high payroll and a losing team. Now Alderson is fixing it, also this season is far far from over.

    And also if Alderson where benefiting from Minayas parting gifts the team would be winning!

  • Peter

    As far as the WIlpons, They got screwed with the pnzie scheme. They have to most likely pay 40 mill as of now in 16 and 17. I will assume the plan is to stay around 90 to 100 mill till after the 17 season and build a winning team with that payroll to make a bigger profit. The profit would be more substantial in a big market as well. This is smart as far as buisness and Alderson has given himself assets as well as kept what he inherited which is also smart. He will eventually use these assets for offense, they want to win. Teams win with this kind of budget and smaller, we are going to see the the influx in talent coming this year as far as pitching. Lets see how this plays out.

  • Mikey

    Remind us all again WHY Tejada was his only option at SS again?

  • I’ve been over Richie for years now. I was hoping 2014 would be different. Good thing it’s only Mid-May. Some give a reprieve and say, it take s a while to rebuild the farm. Well, turns out the farm is ok. The MLB team?? Yup, worse than ever been before. Also, there’s this notion that sustainability is reliant on the farm. Much of that remains true…except when it comes at the cost of neglecting the MLB team. The shrinking payroll, the out of position players, the flawed everyday players, the lack of bullpen ever…yup. Neglect. And neglect equals four year of devolution and lesser and lesser wins.

  • Joey D.

    Hi Just,

    Was only meant to point out to Connor that there were more things involved and when I saw his other comment about Sandy’s purpose coming here I felt using Sandy’s own words and his actions since that time was proof enough to dispel that myth (not to mention pointing out the realities of both the Mets situation beforehand and what Sandy was with Oakland before that).

    It’s not a matter of having a vision and having to work on a small budget – he said he would not had taken the job under those circumstances, remember?

    Also, there is still the question of handing one with no professional knowledge of the game the challenge and authority to run baseball matters at its highest level. That he then out of nowhere built up the Oakland farm system and became the architect behind the championship clubs with the trades and free agent signings that followed would be, well, like in the words of Sam Spade “the stuff that dreams are made of”.

    As said, all of his actions, statements, and of course background leads to the obvious understanding that Sandy is adept in baseball as a business, not the business of baseball but that he also understands how arm chair general managers and statisticians think and uses that to exploit and cover up what is happening at the same time. For a rebuilding plan as he describes would have gone further at this point. That is the simple truth that for others is simply an inconvenient truth

  • DrDooby

    I know. They were part of the “core” back then along with the underrated Mike Cameron, the overrated Steve Trachsel & Kris Benson and the fading Mike Piazza and Al Leiter.

  • DrDooby

    Phillips actually was the mastermind behind ownership’s philosophy and probably gets the biggest assist in turning them into what they became. All about now. Forget about tomorrow. Joe McIlvaine had different ideas in mind but wasn’t as “organized” / short sighted as Steve Phillips. To me, he is the symbol of the Wilpon ways. Yes, he helped build the 99/00 playoff teams. But without the groundwork of his predecessor McIlvaine, the 1999 / 2000 can never be finished. And like the “Minaya” Mets, this also happened to be a short term / small window type team due to the lack of pitching depth & a mostly veteran roster of players on the wrong side of 30, save for Edgardo Alfonzo who may not have been totally correct about his age either…

  • DrDooby

    Alderson’s biggest problem may be communicating with the New York media and believing him when he said he was serious about “competing” / or even contending in 2011, 2012 and even 2013.
    When it was obvious that winning came in a distant 3rd on the priority list behind # 1 managing finances and # 2 building up the farm system with a view towards long term success. It’s one thing openly stating this like Theo Epstein and Jeff Luhnow have respectively in Chicago and Houston. And it’s another never ever using the word “rebuild” in 3 1/2 years on the job, maybe out of fear it could lead customers to not spend their hard earned money on a team not “in it”. Which they didn’t do anyway as dumping K-Rod, trading Beltran for an A-Ball prospect, letting Reyes depart as a free agent and trading the reigning CY winner for a fringy plug-in C and two prospects, never signing a frontline or even 2nd tier free agent or never trading a prospect for major league help clearly weren’t the actions of a team looking to “compete”.

    Those are the actions of a team in full REBUILD mode. Both financially and in terms of players.

    Now, the course is finally being changed. Gradual, not swiping, considering the 85 million payroll this franchise is running out there and the reulctant

  • DrDooby

    …reluctance promoting prospects before they lose Super 2 rights.

  • Joey D.

    Hi Henry,

    Like you, I’ve been all over Sandy for his double-talk and insulting the intelligence of the fans by being able to look at them straight in the eye with his dishonesty (a kinder way of calling him a liar). But though I always have stated that the “rebuilding” was a result of being the only alternative open due to economics and therefore it was limited to financial decisions – not baseball judgments – and was therefore at best an “incomplete” plan, I like you word to describe what it would have to result in much better: “neglect”.

    Kind of reminds one of what happened to poor Shea Stadium as well and why so many called it (unfairly) a “dump”.

  • Joey D.

    Hi Peter,

    Think of it this way. Without those gifts the team would be losing 100 games a season.

  • Joshua Eichenbaum

    Do you really think Alderson, or anyone for that matter, would turn down a chance to be a GM again after not serving as one for over a decade?…

  • Joey D.

    Hi DrD,

    Well at least we are reaching a common ground in the less than being honest approach. But you know where we disagree on – rebuilding with youth can only blindside people so long as to the true motivation – not spending money because the resources are desperately needed in other areas to keep Sterling Mets in business.

    If that wasn’t the case, we would see more moves made at this point if not beforehand. That they haven’t shows that it is not baseball that is dictating our future but the economic interests that require the team to stay under the control of Sterling Mets.

    Please no statistical justification at this point – the problems that have been ignored resulting in the apathy and disconnect over-rides the defending of any single methodology in a baseball world with so many options available for one to use at any time. What we have here is the result of business concerns, not a well planned baseball approach that either is not working out as planned or is still going though growing pains.

  • Joey D.

    Hi Joshua,

    Have to give you credit for that one, no one would, especially since nobody else offered him that chance for over a decade.

  • DrDooby

    Hi Joey D.,

    they´re indeed entering dangerous territory now. I was fully on booard with the 2011 to 2013 actions. They happened to be inevitable financially (unfortunately) and they were long overdue structurally and standing in the way of an era of sustainable success.

    2014 was always supposed to be the “turnaround” year.
    The equivalent of 1984, 1997 or 2005 so to speak in terms of Mets history. Not quite good enough to be playoff bound. But a noticeable change in approach and higher goals and a firm commitment to winning – be it in a prudent fashion and without losing the long range vision.

    The off-season additions were okay – but pretty much at the lower end of minimum expectations. And not adressing the biggest need of the team – SS – wasn´t a very good idea either.Also, while I don´t know whether Terry Collins has been a positive factor or a negative factor or – what seems most likely – a neutral care taker, fact is, coming off 3 straight seasons of losing 85 games or more, a managerial change would have been an easy way to appease the fanbase. Basically, TC is associated with the Mets losing. Whether it´s his fault – and it probably isn´t – or not.

    It´s a somewhat encouraging sign that at least some actions are being taken now. Such as bringing up Flores or even bringing up Campbell now. Next step should be bringing up Black to replace Valverde and then DeGrom or Montero for the rotation with Mejia shifting to the bullpen.

    But from now on, winning has to be a priority again. Obviously not at all cost with Syndergaard and other arms on IP limits and Harvey out for basically the entire year. But there has to be a concerted effort to win and the message that losing won´t be accepted should be clear. Players, managers and the front office will have to be held accountable.

    The honeymoon phase for Alderson & Co. sure is over – even for those who have generally been on board with his rather obvious plans. He´ll have to make do with the financial funds that ownership allows him to spend. But basically, the 2014 payroll is 30 million $ higher than the 2013 payroll was in terms of players who actually played for the Mets last year.

    Again, the baseline for a successful 2014 season has to be a .500+ record and a positive feeling that with the return of Harvey, Syndergaard & other young arms in fullltime roles from Opening Day on and hopefully improvements to the offense this team will be considered a legit 2015 contender – not only by some die-hard fans but also by oddsmakers & experts.

  • ray sadecki

    Ah yes, excuse me for not reading it correctly. I think the most important thingh you bring up is the rushing of the kids to the big team and affecting their carreers in a negative way, Just like the impatient children here want alderson to rush up the kids now. Sandy is not great he is a much better GM omar and thats for sure. I just wish the wilpons gave him a blank check too so we wouldnt have to settle for 2nd tier free agents. OH HOW I WANTED CHOO WITH HIS 1,000 PLUS OPS AT THE TOP OF OUR ORDER INSTEAD OF STRIKEOUT MACHINE GRANDERSON

  • Connor O’Brien

    You can’t expect to win the first 3-4 years of a rebuild, at least not with owners continuously dropping payroll.

  • Connor O’Brien

    The young players here or coming soon:
    Syndergaard
    d’Arnaud
    Wheeler
    Harvey
    Lagares
    Montero
    Mejia
    deGrom
    Black

  • Connor O’Brien

    Why would Alderson want to keep Matt Harvey? #firesandyalderson

  • Connor O’Brien

    Also an eye for ways to mismanage a team.

  • Connor O’Brien

    …Which you can say about almost every rebuilding team…

  • Joey D.

    Hi DrD.,

    We’re getting closer with our assessments, my buddy.

    But will not excuse 2011 though I thoroughly understand. Can never approve what was done for that was purely in the interests of the Wilpons and not the team and we are seeing an extension of that now (hey, a bolt of lightning just struck outside my window as I typed this – a bad omen of things to come? LOL).

  • Joey D.

    Hi Connor,

    Would be more curious as to your thoughts about the lengthy response I had in which I thought you were not only over-simplifying things by ignoring the business realities affecting baseball matters but in the inaccuracy of your understanding of what you said Sandy’s goals and objectives were when hired as Mets GM.

    If what he said was indeed pure BS (which I think we can all agree to), then so could the intentions behind re-building and not making other moves as well. That’s one of the points I mean by integrity – with his lying from the beginning, Sandy has already lost the right from us to believe in his honesty because he already showed a total lack of integrity.

    And if one defends moves not being made because of financial restrictions, that in itself is an admittance that what we see being done by the front office is not based on a well thought out baseball plan or methodology. It’s all business and financial – and again, no statistical justification can be made to put it any other way for as we know, the Mets were not in the position of being an “old” team with no youngsters on the horizon when he took over. There was already a combination in place to work with and build up with that one did not have to wait four years plus to still not do anything.

    Just consider these things because a lesson one has to learn is that involving one’s self in stats upon stats does indeed mean a disconnect with the real world – which is the problem the Mets are having.

  • 🙂 Now you know as well as I do it’s so he can ruin the Mets.

  • Peter

    Come on, I can easily say, think of it this way, we would not have to wait for Bay and Santanas contracts to come off, or we could have had Carlos Gomez. This can go on for a while.

  • Connor O’Brien

    Wooho!

  • Connor O’Brien

    Jeez, how many decades in baseball does it take to become a “baseball guy?” 3 isn’t enough?

    Anyway… I have to disagree. I definitely agree that Alderson’s immediate purpose was to stop the bleeding and cut payroll. I think whether the Mets were in a bad financial state or not, cutting the dead weight would be an immediate priority. The financial problems made it all the more urgent, but the $140 million was about the cap the Wilpons had set regardless of financial status, and the bad contracts on the books would be the immediate job on the major league side.

    You are thinking about this as 100% business, when that isn’t true. Of course Alderson worked on cutting payroll, but that doesn’t mean there wasn’t ANYTHING ELSE he could do.

    Alderson’s minor league strategy has been the buzz of the league. He changed the system from top to bottom, and people around baseball are talking about it. It’s not at all sexy, which is why our impatient fanbase dismisses it, despite a good farm system being the most important ingredient to a consistent winner. You can look at that 2012 draft with half of the draft picks going unsigned, but that isn’t as significant when compared to the overall strategy. The drafting team set out to draft a bunch of high-upside project players. Lots of high schoolers, lots of raw talent. Of course, there are going to be huge misses when you go that route, but that’s where you get the stars. I don’t want to bring Minaya into this but I will only because it represents a contrasting approach to Alderson’s. He often drafted older players for need. That’s not how you get the gems, at least most of the time.

    As for his comments: If there is one thing Alderson is absolutely terrible at, it’s dealing with the media. He contradicts himself, is often vague, and says things to get fans excited that fall flat (at least within the blogs). I almost completely ignore his public comments and instead judge him more by his actions. I think he felt, going into the New York market, that he couldn’t take the same kind of public relations strategy you can in a small market. (And how much of what he says is meant to influence the market remains a mystery. Sometimes it seems like he has a motive for saying things in that sense, and other times it doesn’t make sense, so I don’t think anyone is really sure about that.)

    On the major league side, Alderson has freedom up to a point, it seems. The Wilpons give him strict parameters because they want to keep costs low, but he can make moves like Grandy, Colon, etc. The Wilpons are snakes and may or may not want him to not talk about these limits, but for a team that should be expanding payroll at this point in the process, the money they’ve spent is worrying. They are significantly lower than last year, and around 60% of what they were when Alderson took over.

    It seems like Alderson has been fortunate enough to get enough done on the minor league side so that he doesn’t need as much money. Syndergaard, Montero, Wheeler, and other cheap, young players will allow them to compete without spending another $20 million per year. To go from playoff contender to one of baseball’s best teams, however, will probably require more MLB investment, but we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it in the near future.

    I really think you are overestimating the influence of business on the minor league side of things. There, the system DePodesta, Alderson, etc. have implemented has seemed to retain separation from the financial woes of the team. When the Wilpons said “cut costs,” that didn’t mean to abandon everything.

    It’s obvious the payroll has been affected by the Wilpons, but Alderson has done a good (good, not great) job of making the most of his circumstances. In the end, it’s his job to guide the organization to the direction of consistent winning. It hasn’t shown up yet because building a system to last takes as long as any organizational strategy

    If the front office got to the point where every minor league decision was made with finances taking precedence over anything else, the Wilpons wouldn’t own the team any longer.

  • Connor O’Brien

    Alderson has been the equivalent of a consulting firm. I’m not an expert on the business world by any means, but he was brought in to a) cut costs but also b) set the organization in the right direction with a foundation in high-potential player development. Your comments seem to disregard the second part and completely focus on the first. See my lengthy response to you below.

  • Connor O’Brien

    “involving one’s self in stats upon stats does indeed mean a disconnect with the real world – which is the problem the Mets are having.”

    The Mets use stats as much as any other organization. They just choose to use better stats. Back in the day (lol), it was your batting average and what the scouts saw. Now it’s a better stat plus what the scouts saw. Just read any interview of Tanous, Podesta, or other front office people not named Alderson.

  • Mikey

    INFLUX can only come from those who are NOT here yet! LOL
    And half the guys you named are Minaya guys!
    Nice try but your better at Math than making excuses for Sandy!

  • Mario Gonzalez

    I guess in your eyes, Alderson can do no wrong. Makes me wonder why the Padres were not setting the world on fire during his tenure there.

  • Connor O’Brien

    I don’t care whether they are Minaya guys or not, they are either here or coming, a promising sign for the team going forward.

    And no, the word “influx” does not mean hasn’t happened yet. Here is the definition of the word:
    “an arrival or entry of large numbers of people or things”

    So when I say we are currently seeing an influx of young players, I am correct.

    (And thanks for the snark. Oh how I missed it!)

  • Connor O’Brien

    Alderson can do wrong and has in the past. Letting Reyes go, signing Carrasco, Frank Frank, etc. Liking the overall job someone has done is much different than thinking he can do no wrong.

    (P.S. Alderson was not involved much, if at all, with baseball operations in San Diego.)

  • Mikey

    Yes we know you don’t care about the truth of the situation as long as you can use it to serve the Master of Numbers!

    Well how those Numbers look in the standings?
    How does the Record stack up Sabermetrically?
    Hell how does the TEAM stack up Sabermetrically?

    He has had 4 Offseasons to make this team better.
    Is it?
    Does the Wins and Losses reflect that?
    If not then on WHAT MATHEMATICAL METHODOLOGY and Statistical Analysis are you currently using to say it is?

  • Joey D.

    Hi Connor,

    Thanks for taking the time to respond.

    You still will not distinguish a general manager involved in baseball as a business from one involved in the business of baseball? That is the first thing my young friend that you do have to learn. See both DrD’s response to me and my follow-up to him with the reference material attached to “quantify” this.

    What “dead weight” did we have other than for Castillo and Perez who were not in the equation of baseball matters anyway? Fiscally, those “bad contracts” amounted to $18 million.
    Bay was not signed above market value. KRod yes, but distinguish what might be bad for the “accountant” and what would be bad for the “team”.

    As far as “dead weight” in October, 2010 as it pertained to the team itself, did that mean it in turn was hurting the team itself? That meant not having Murphy – who had proved he could hit – being groomed in the minors during 2010 to play second base to make up for Castillo? Or Reyes, Beltran, Pagan, Davis, Wright, Bay, even Thole making up
    the rest of the lineup? Pitching wise, did Perez being released mean they did not have candidates to replace him to go alongside Dickey, Pelfey (coming off a good 2010) and Niese as starters? There was Gee who showed promise in his September, 2010 call up. In the pen Acosta, Parnell, Takahashi and Feliciano (before injury which nobody could foresee) leading up to Krod?

    That’s “dead weight” baseball wise?

    Santana, because of the injury, was not “dead weight” fiscally even in 2011 because he was “self insured” by the Mets to protect themselves from being stuck with contractual liability due to injuries. As you can see from the attached, Johann became dead weight for the 2013 season.
    http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/63192/why-mets-did-not-insure-johans-contract
    You say he revamped the way we approached the draft and minor league system. You are not quantifying that with anything substantial.
    “High upside players” and “Buzz around the league” are just writer’s prose and metaphors, not anything substantive. When there is a more specific point made about “Lots of high schoolers” that is not exactly in line with your standard of quantification, Connor. In 2013, half of the Met top ten selections were 21 years of age or older. Isn’t that what you said Omar did too? Well, let us for example look at the 2007 draft under Omar. Six of the top ten were 21 years of age or older – a difference of one draft selection.

    The age of the draft selections are determined by the talent pool, as we all recognize. If there is a tremendously large pool of potential major league talent deemed on the college level than the high school level in any particular year whom do you think the scouts are going to go after? It depends on the best talent available and when one’s turn comes not passing up on a top sought after player with all the credentials because he is not of high school age.

    Yet, when one is facing bankruptcy and is hundreds of millions of dollars in debt without the resources to meet the fiscal deadlines, it IS A MATTER of 100 percent business. Anything less and there is no business to have for the debtors are not interested in how the Mets are going to do in the standings – they want their money. If it was a matter of being able to make a balance between the two, they would not have required bailouts, selling 40 percent in minority shares and taking on countless numbers of re-financing loans which puts off payments but increases the amount of money owed.

    Yes, he obtained some very promising top minor league talent. But do you think we will win because of that? Gee and Niese put up great pitching performances but come up empty. So did Harvey last year when he was pitching Cy Young quality. As said, great pitching wins games but can you please quantify for me how I am wrong that when accompanied by it, bad hitting does not lose ball games just as often. What do you think we have been seeing the past two years?

    Again Connor, thanks for responding – I do enjoy our back and forth discussions. But a word of advice from one who had aspirations of being a journalist when back in college. Writing down on paper nice sounding phrases like “buzz around the league” pertaining to the draft and farm system makes for a great read but as I pointed out with your assertion, from the journalistic perspective of being objective and avoiding the placement of opinion coming across as fact, make sure that the facts do match those written words before putting them down on paper for you’ll then have to stand behind what you wrote.
    Remember what you said about lots of high school players compared to Omar? It seems you forgot to take into account the pool of talent available at the time and even the more important factor of the age group in the top ten selected in different years. You see in 2006, the year before, eight of the top ten selections under Omar were under 20 years of age as well.

    Remember, quantify. 🙂

  • Joey D.

    Hi Connor,

    You did not see the point I was making – I said relying on stats – not using them in conjunction with conventional wisdom like you mention is how you treat sabermetrics. Sandy is all analytical who believes in probabilities over conventional wisdom.

  • Connor O’Brien

    That is what some think

  • Joey D.

    Hi Connor,

    I am glad to see in your profile that you are one of them – so the comment was of course meant about Sandy Alderson, you knew that, didn’t you?

  • jason bay

    No,

    The desperation is all yours Hot Streak.

    The topic of discussion was what GM’s inherited and you are desperately trying to avoid the Inconvient truth I have brought to the surface.

  • Connor O’Brien

    I have no idea where statistics came into this. However, you, as always, have made it about statistics.

    Seeing as you are unable to see anything I type, whether relating to statistics or not, as me trying to brainwash you, I’m not going to respond again.

    You think the Mets, with no promising players anywhere in the organization, are plunging into an abyss of failure that will last a hundred years, all caused by the baseball-hating, math-loving Sandy Alderson, who was paid to come to New York and destroy all our hopes and dreams. I disagree. Let’s leave it at that. 😉

  • jason bay

    Lindstrom and Bell had very good years in 2007 and 2008, among other ones as well and easily would have helped us win a couple more games those years which would have made a difference.

  • jason bay

    Let’s not forget about those parting gifts in the form of Perez, Castillo, Santana and Bay who took up 160 M in payroll Alderson’s first three years.

  • jason bay

    As GM Alderson signed or drafted Miguel Tejada, Ramon Hernandez, McGwire, Weiss, Hudson, Mulder, Chavez, Giambi…..

  • jason bay

    Because # 2 on the list was 3rd rounder Robbie Shields whose playing 1B at 26 in A+.

  • jason bay

    How can you be “one player short” when you make the playoffs one time in six years?

    As for the whole “you can get good players in the second round” nonsense, then where are they?

    We haven’t hit on a 2nd rounder since Todd Hundley in 1987.

  • Connor O’Brien

    Yes. And that’s what I meant. Some think Alderson uses sabermetrics as the be-all-end-all, but the evidence doesn’t point towards that.

  • jason bay

    Bell, Lindstron, Bannister and Bell could have helped the Mets a lot.

  • jason bay

    A Cy Young award winner with a 5+ ERA since he was traded.

  • Mikey

    Ah Mr Peabody..Wondered when you would rear your Ugly Sandy licking head!

    Sandy let Reyes Walk three years ago (without a shred of good compensation) so if he was the ONLY options it’s Sandy’s own fault!

  • Mikey

    Mets have Plenty of Promising Players…None of which they would have if not for being acquired by someone brought here by Omar!

    As for why I mention Statistics?
    Because you write over and over again how good Numbers work then when we ask you about some numbers you ignore them!

  • Mikey

    Yeah and what’s Colon doing?
    Whats d’Arnauds BA again?

    How has all the other great Sandy signings done so far this year?

    Guess what…Your Namesake had a better BA at 15M per than CYoung and Grandy have @ 20M

  • jason bay

    The question worth asking is why does this team HAVE to sign a starting pitcher, three relievers, two OFer’s, a couple bench players and 5 AAA stashes every year?

    Answer that one and you will receive eternal enlightenment.

  • jason bay

    Wimpy,

    He took the first 100 M deal he got. Never even brought it back to Alderson to match and Plaweiki’s hitting .298 and Reynolds .330 (both in AA) so I wouldn’t say that is insignificant.

  • Mikey

    Every team does unless they don’t blow their draft picks on guys who take 3 years to get to A+ Like Sandy did…

    You Know like the Marlins who drafted a starting Pitcher who is already in the MLB?

    Or Omar Minaya whose 2010 Pick was the starter in the All Star game in 3 short years?

  • Joey D.

    Hi Connor,

    Again, do your research and in the first person. Sandy specifically states how his philosophy is dominated in terms of mathematical analysis combined with systematic approaches. It is not a balanced approach which includes the important aspect known as “flexibility” in lieu of disciplined conformity as far as he is concerned. In an interview this past January he said:

    “My personal approach is I think people are the most important thing but ultimately, the way you leverage the quality of the people is through structure and systems. I’m really very process oriented and project driven. I try not to be limited by that information. There is always the question of how much information do you have to have before you make a decision. If you wait too long, that can be as unfortunate as being too early.”

    Now note that though he says he tries “not to be limited by that information” he also said at a lecture the following month “As soon as someone says he has a ‘gut feeling’ about something, I start worrying,” He said that in conjunction with his thoughts about conventional wisdom versus probabilities:

    “If you constantly react to each result, you will never focus on the probabilities,” Alderson noted, adding that bad decisions are inevitable. “If you make more good decisions than bad ones, you will succeed. You have to focus on the process. Great leaders develop systems, and ultimately you have to routinize to enhance probabilities of success.”

    Now also note what he says about when he started out with Oakland:

    “When I got into baseball, I didn’t have any baseball experience.”

    That in itself is important for two reasons. One, of course for it is the beginning and the end regarding the shared “baseball people” responsibility of the draft picks, the farm system and the roster decisions that led to those great Oakland clubs.

    The other is how he tried learning about the game in his new profession. His decision was to learn what he could through what came natural to him due to his innate personal makeup – adopting analytical study. He said he “was open minded about things” which is to his credit:

    “And then a couple of years later, I became General Manager and largely because we hadn’t, during that two year period, networked enough to know anybody to perhaps interview and offer the job, so I got it almost by default. There was a lot of on-the-job training but as a result, I was very open-minded about things. I didn’t have conventional theories about the game and there were several innovative things we were able to do as a result of simply being open-minded and not constrained by conventional wisdom.”

    But he also admits not being “constrained by conventional wisdom” which is also an admittance of not fully respecting those who had been in the game not based on anything “quantitative” or “substantive”. Part of that was because he could not balance what he called “innovative things” with “conventional wisdom” because “I had virtually no experience in the game”. His own words:

    He was asked how he was able to balance stats and traditional scouting.
    “DP: In that regard, you are well-known for your work with advanced statistics and sabermetrics. As an outsider, how did you handle the balance of stats and traditional scouting?”

    Note his answer:

    “SA: It was difficult to approach it as a balance because I had virtually no experience in the game. I hadn’t been a player. I wasn’t a coach. I had never scouted. So I really didn’t have access to that kind of decision making. In my position, I am basically a decision maker and so I have to evaluate information. It is tough to evaluate information to which you have never been exposed.

    “So almost by default, the analytics became an alternative and, at least, a curiosity. And ultimately through that curiosity, the analytics could be demonstrated [to be valid] through mathematics, at least to some extent. So to that point forward, I incorporated it into our thinking. We kept it quiet because, to the extent that it was valid, we didn’t want to disclose it to anyone else. It was sort of a proprietary thing on our part. Of course, all that was blown away by the book “Moneyball.””

    So no, it’s not the be-all, end-all with Sandy, but it’s what dominates his thinking and how he wants his organization run. It’s not an equal balance – it did not start off that way and it hasn’t changed since – and that is the point being made. Some feel there is nothing wrong with that but many like myself have gone deeper to demonstrate how the stats lead to superficial conclusions. We have “quantified” Sandy’s superficiality for example with his correlation between a higher PPPA translating into more run production and more opportunities for one getting a better pitch to hit or plate discipline that could lead to a walk as opposed to studying the pitcher and the game situation to determine when one should swing the bat. Not only have we proved how wrong Sandy is, but so has conventional baseball wisdom.

    And as you know, I just recently provided evidence disproving your claim how his way of drafting younger prospects is the “buzz of all baseball” when it is really no different than Omar who drafted about same amount (and in another year) more players younger than Sandy did in last year’s draft. And not to mention the selection itself depends upon the pool of talent available that year.

    http://www.thedp.com/article/2014/01/qa-with-new-york-mets-general-manager-sandy-alderson http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/new-york-mets-sandy-alderson-modern-business-baseball/

  • Mikey

    No he took the FIRST deal he got because your Hero didn’t make an offer!

  • mets4lyfe

    “Alderson’s minor league strategy has been the buzz of the league. He changed the system from top to bottom, and people around baseball are talking about it.”

    Exactly what do you mean when you say ‘minor league strategy’? I haven’t heard or read anything about Alderson revolutionizing the system.

    The drafting strategies of Andrew Friedman, Luhnow, Wren, Neal Huntington, etc. are the buzz of the league, not Alderson. Mets aren’t even a top 5 farm system and most scouting websites have them around the top 10-15. We won’t be able to judge Alderson’s draft strategy until a 2-4 years from now when most of the players he’s drafted will be knocking on the door of the Major League team.

  • Hotstreak

    Feel better: You use the end to jujstify the means.

    Beltran, Pagaen, Reyes, Wright, Murphy , Niese, Gee plus prospects coming now. Yes SA inherited them.

  • Hotstreak

    Oops Harvey and Dickey too which I forgot below.

  • Hotstreak

    Name one SA acquisition except for Wheeler’s bunt which has helped this team.

    Tejeda (ok for Mother’s day and bases loaded), Murphy Niese, Gee , Harvey and all the prospects to be fair SA will have his. But to date all of SA’s FA so far are failing this team. Dickey Cy Young.

    As for DW his stats are looking better but is he worth 25% of payroll. Murphy was walked to face DW so maybe DW haters have a point.

    All the SA lovers are desparate. SA must go along with TC.

    I am looking foward to a cogent reply stating why SA should remain GM. No Omar bashing allowed. We are talking about SA.

    No Wilpon and Picard lawsuit allowed because 2014 is the year and piss poor over thirty FA he aquired sound famila. Oh he will be the closer.

    As Hernry Thoreau said: The mass of Met fans lead lives of quiet desperation. You SA supporters are desparate to justify he continue.

  • Erin_II

    It`s a good post, Streak, I agree with most, if not ALL of it, but your message is diluted, and really cannot be taken seriously when you use the term SA lover. And this from a guy that has zero love for the man.
    You`re better than that, man.

  • Hotstreak

    Yes Erin; I see your point. So for that reason I will edit it to SA supporters, 🙂

  • derek murphy

    That was such a stupid article. So many GM’s are fired before there prospects come to fruition. When minaya was here he was getting dogged out for the same reason. None of his prospects were contributing. The first guy I remember and only guy that he drafted that flew thru the system was joe smith.

    When Omar was fired none of his draft picks had amounted to anything. Omar had a great international signing class in 2007 those guys are just cutting there teeth now. Harvey and Matz are his highest upside pitchers drafted and so far we’ve seen a half of major league season from them combined. Drafted players take a long time to help a major league roster.

    Everyone weighs in but nobody knows. My feeling is when all is said and done SA has brought in so much more talent than Omar. To say a GM is being held afloat by a previous GM or GM’s is only stating the obvious. People talk about cash man and his Yankee success. However the core of that team was drafted by stick Michael. They talk about Jerry Reese winning 2 superbowls well he did sprinkle on some roll players but he ddnt draft there core that was here. Nobody talks about Omar’s success and says yeah but he was gifted 2 franchise players.

    Players are often coming into there own at 25 or 26. Those same players are drafted for the most part when there 18. That’s 7 or 8 years till there playing in the majors at peak performance. Rarely these days is a GM in a position to see his draft picks come of age. GM’s often sign deals for 3 or 4 years and are judged by the major league results.

    Being a GM is a 2 part job developing talent which is base on drafts and IFA signings. Then there’s the managing of the major league roster. That’s deciding who to keep and who to Perdue. While there is no questioning SA has built up our system up his acquisitions have left a lot to be desired. Before this offseason he was not allowed to spend so its hard to judge. This past offseason I think he should have tried to add to the core. The perfect player for the mets to add given the rebuilding status was Abreu. Signing a lot of guys and spending a lot of money was not my desire. Bringing in all older players to me is stupid.

    SA has a plan he has stockpiled pitching and put himself in a position to deal valuable commodities to fill needs. We have future catchers, a1b in smitn, 2baseman, SA’s, 3b’s, SP and bullpen arms. They could really use a couple of high upside OF’s. This is the time that deals need to be made sometimes you have to take a step back before you can take a step forward. Projecting a team that includes our minor leaguers is very exciting. SA built up this surplus for a reason it’s not a completed product until these moves are made and players elevated. That’s when you can judge SA because he came in for a complete overhaul. We will be there soon and were going to be young and there for a long time.

  • derek murphy

    SA is not going anywhere. The mets minor league system is better than ever. That means they can address needs without having to spend money. That is exactly what the coupons wanted him to do. While he has not been able to spend the spending he has done has left a lot to be desired. Take a blank roster card and you can fill it with high upside talent if you include the minors. The mets are knocking on the door they need to promote the kids and do away with the AARP crew.

  • Connor O’Brien

    Got no time to respond to that whole comment at the moment, but here’s a nugget that I distinctly remember:
    9/12 of the top two picks in each draft by Minaya were age 20+, college guys. (give or take one, this is just from my memory)
    For Alderson so far? 1/6

  • Connor O’Brien

    If you’re going to discount trades and holdover prospects, how can you possibly expect a wave of MLB ready talent after less than three years since his first draft?
    And yeah, I’ve mentioned statistics so much in this one particular thread. Besides using the words “four years” and “three years,” I haven’t used any statistics or numbers in this discussion.

  • Mikey

    If you want to credit Sandy with the work then grade him on HIS work not what was handed to him on a silver platter!

    You want to credit him with Wheeler and Syndergaard which don’t happen without Beltran and Dickey and completely ignore the LACK of what he could have gotten for Pagan and Reyes or what he has signed in FA over the last 4 Offseasons!

    Look at what he has gotten in the draft compared to the other teams in the league as well!

    Yet you want to say good job because he uses Sabermetrics but when the guys he got using them are mentioned you run away from them and go back to giving him credit for what Omar GIFTED him!
    The guy you used to trash as RUINING the team but as we speak is the only thing stopping it from being the worst team in the league!

  • Connor O’Brien

    You act as if any GM could have pulled off those Dickey and Beltran trades. If that’s the case, why hire and fire GMs at all if everyone does the same job?

    And I’m not ignoring the “lack of what he could’ve gotten” (which, using your own double negative, means he did a good job, but I’ll interpret it the other way). Alderson dropped the ball on Reyes. With no money, he had no leverage so the package wouldn’t have been a good one, and you would’ve criticized him for that as well, but nonetheless he misread the market and dropped the ball. The Pagan trade wasn’t a great trade by any means. Torres was serviceable but not particularly good and Ramirez was replacement level. Those are two reasons why I use words like “good” to describe Sandy Alderson’s tenure as opposed to “great.” He has made some minor mistakes on the free agent market as well, the larges being the $12 million to Frank Frank. If I were REALLY praising him non-stop only because he uses sabermetrics, I WOULD completely ignore these facts. But I don’t. Instead I look at his tenure as a whole, including the moves he has made and the situation he was put in.

    You can ignore that statement right there ^ or my past comments if you’d like. Nothing I can do about that…

  • Mikey

    Since Discus sucks and won’t show reply options correctly I’ll respond to your comment here Connor…
    Yes ANY GM could have traded an annual Allstar and Cy Young Pitcher for what we got for them…In fact a REAL GM would have gotten more!

  • Joey D.

    Hi Connor,

    For the time you would need to respond to my mini-version of “war and pieces” you would no longer be studying for your SAT’s, you’d be preparing your master’s thesis! LOL

    Top two picks each year cannot sustain an organization – there would never be enough players to fill in the pieces as you know. An interesting tidbit but not really one to distinguish a major shift in philosophy.

    You know who the Mets very first number one draft pick back in 1966 was, don’t you? A guy named Steve Chilcott. He was a high school player also. You know who the number two pick selected by the Kansas City Athletics was too? Reggie Jackson. He attended Arizona State University. 🙂

  • Connor O’Brien

    Wow, what an interesting thought. I completely disagree and I have a feeling you do too.

  • Mikey

    yes you get those feelings a lot like thinking Sabers are great…
    In both cases your wrong!

  • Connor O’Brien

    I guess it was easy to get a team’s top two prospects, a decent power hitting part time catcher, and another raw foreign prospect for a 38 year old who may or may not age like your average knuckleballer and is missing a UCL.

  • Mikey

    For a Cy Young Pitcher? Sure was!
    Happens almost every year!
    And you forget that the only reason the guy we got were their top two prospects is because the Marlins already shaved their even BETTER prospects from their system in the Reyes trade!

    Thats kind of like saying after trading Syndergaard Flores and Montero, Trading Nimmo and Puello would be giving away our best prospects and a steal for the other team’s Cy Young Pitcher!

  • Connor O’Brien

    There is a difference between the certainty of the future for Zack Greinke and R.A. Dickey. Be realistic here…

    (And it wasn’t just the team’s two best prospects, it was two top 30 prospects in all of baseball, so there goes your Marlins point.)

  • Mikey

    Guys who get traded for Cy Young Pitchers and All stars all the time!
    Marins still got the cream of the Toronto Crop and we got what floated to the top after they scrapped the top of the Cream barrel!

  • Connor O’Brien

    So I guess all Cy Young Award winners are created equal?

    And that’s false. We got higher rated prospects than the Marlins did. At the time, only one player in that trade with the Marlins was considered a top 100 prospect, and that was for multiple All-Star players. We got two.

  • Mikey

    Yes they are all Cy Young Award Winners!

  • Connor O’Brien

    Shaking my head…
    Long term, would you rather have a 25 year old Cy Young Award winner or a 27 year old winner?
    You have to be kidding me. You cannot be telling me they have equal trade value. That’s ridiculous…

  • Mikey

    yes I am and when you grow up you will realize that!
    Besides d’Arnaud seems to be anything BUT a Winner so far!

  • Connor O’Brien

    I would definitely have the same expectations for a 44 year old Dickey as a 33 year old former CYA winner…
    I cannot believe you are actually saying this. You really aren’t kidding? Over say, seven or eight years, you would just as rather have Dickey than Price, Scherzer, etc?

  • Mikey

    Yeah and we can’t believe you had to start talking about 44 year olds because your original argument was too weak…

  • Connor O’Brien

    I didn’t change the subject.

    Dickey was 37 when traded.

    You said a 25 year old has the same value long-term as Dickey (because they are both CYA winners). Long-term, meaning seven or eight years from the trade (so add either of those numbers to 37… 44 or 45!), who would you be more comfortable with?

    I didn’t change the subject at all. You said Dickey is just as valuable as any other CYA winner. I just put what you said into a theoretical scenario.

    Whether you chose to understand it is up to you.

  • Mikey

    No? which of those players was 44?
    Bye Bye kid!

  • Connor O’Brien

    DO YOU REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND THIS?????????

    What do you consider when trading for a player? Long-term value. How long is long-term? Maybe 7-8 years. It doesn’t matter. So would a GM be more optimistic about Dickey in seven years (44 y/o) or Price (Much younger)?

    You HAVE to be kidding me…

  • Connor O’Brien

    There is no way you could possibly be reading the words on the screen….No chance…

  • Mikey

    I would definitely have the same expectations for a 44 year old Dickey as a 33 year old former CYA winner

    Do you even read what you type?
    Guess not and it might explain why you are almost always wrong on every issue.

  • Connor O’Brien

    THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING!!!!

  • Connor O’Brien

    Do you not recognize sarcasm?

    By saying the trade value of two people is the same, if the contracts are similar, you are saying they have the same value long-term.

    Take the two 2012 Cy Young Award winners, R.A. Dickey and David Price. If both traded after 2012, would they fetch the same return? Which one will you be able to count on down the road?

    The answer should be obvious… I really hope it is to you…

  • Mikey

    No I didn’t say that you did!
    You couldn’t make the argument with the actual FACTS so made up some childish cartoony numbers in hopes of making your case…

    a Case which is DEAD WRONG and the product of a delusional thought that you know what is going on in the baseball world…based off a spreadsheet!

    name a CY Young Pitcher that was traded away in the year he WON the damn award and got Squat in return.

    Name them all from the last 20 years though you might need 75 years to find even ONE TEAM that traded away a Cy Young winner the year he won it at all!

    That is other than your beloved Sandy Sabermetric!

  • Mikey

    No but I do recognize the fact that you couldn’t make what I WAS saying sound ridiculous so you went and made up cartoon numbers in an attempt to make it SOUND ridiculous..

    And Guess what…

    It made YOU look ridiculous!

  • Connor O’Brien

    Cartoon numbers? What are you talking about…

  • Connor O’Brien

    I wasn’t the one who said a 25 y/o CYA winner and a 37 y/o CYA winner have the same trade value… That was YOU!

    I put the scenario into words. When you trade for a player, you want to evaluate how he is going to play long-term, right? Stop reading now if you don’t agree.

    So, say it’s 2012 and you are looking to trade for R.A. Dickey, a 37 year-old CYA winning pitcher. You are also looking at David Price, who was 26 years old and also a Cy Young Award winner.

    So you want to know which one of them is going to be the best option for your team over the next seven or eight years. So you ADD seven or eight to their ages. Add 7 to 37 and that equals… 44! Add 7 to 26 and that equals… 33!

    So the question is, who do you have more faith in, a 44 year old or a 33 year old? Obviously, you would want to trade for the younger pitcher because he is more likely to sustain his performance.

    If you have faith in one pitcher over another, you aren’t going to offer as much for the other, and thus, his trade value is lower. So your statement that the trade value of every CYA winner is the same can’t be true. An older pitcher like Dickey with more uncertainty surrounding him will not have as much trade value as a younger conventional pitcher. That’s why it was such a steal to get two of the top three Blue Jays prospects plus a little extra.

    This has nothing to do with sabermetrics at all or the “cartoon numbers” that you speak of.

  • Mikey

    Yawn…Come back when you have a point to make that doesn’t requires making numbers up off the top of your head…

  • Connor O’Brien

    WHAT NUMBERS OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

    Let me paste my other response to you here, since you didn’t read it before.

    “I wasn’t the one who said a 25 y/o CYA winner and a 37 y/o CYA winner have the same trade value… That was YOU!

    I put the scenario into words. When you trade for a player, you want to evaluate how he is going to play long-term, right? Stop reading now if you don’t agree.

    So, say it’s 2012 and you are looking to trade for R.A. Dickey, a 37 year-old CYA winning pitcher. You are also looking at David Price, who was 26 years old and also a Cy Young Award winner.

    So you want to know which one of them is going to be the best option for your team over the next seven or eight years. So you ADD seven or eight to their ages. Add 7 to 37 and that equals… 44! Add 7 to 26 and that equals… 33!

    So the question is, who do you have more faith in, a 44 year old or a 33 year old? Obviously, you would want to trade for the younger pitcher because he is more likely to sustain his performance.

    If you have faith in one pitcher over another, you aren’t going to offer as much for the other, and thus, his trade value is lower. So your statement that the trade value of every CYA winner is the same can’t be true. An older pitcher like Dickey with more uncertainty surrounding him will not have as much trade value as a younger conventional pitcher. That’s why it was such a steal to get two of the top three Blue Jays prospects plus a little extra.

    This has nothing to do with sabermetrics at all or the “cartoon numbers” that you speak of.”

    No numbers off the top of my head there!

  • Mikey

    So
    the question is, who do you have more faith in, a 44 year old or a 33 year old

    Is Dickey 44 years old? NO!
    Numbers off the top of your head!

    Now I’m going to ignore the rest of your llittle childish tantrum until you answer MY question…

    Name all the Cy Young Award winners who were traded by their team in the year they won it and from THAT list name all the Cy Young Pitchers who didn’t get squat in return.

  • Connor O’Brien

    So you would only base trade value off what that player will do in the next year? Of course not. You want a player who can perform for years to come, even as they get older. Now, if you’re talking about Dickey, “a few years from now” means ages 39,40,41,42,43,44, etc. However, if you’re talking about David Price or any young pitcher, that phrase means ages 27,28,29,30,31,32, etc. If the player isn’t able to perform in those years, the trade value isn’t as high. And who is more likely to maintain their current level, someone age 40-44 or 28-32?

    And to answer your question, here are the CYA winners traded within a year (recently, and only those I have found, there might be more) of winning the award and the BA prospect rankings attached to the returning prospects

    1997: Pedro Martinez (1998 rankings)
    Carl Pavano: #9

    1994: Carl Pavano (1994 rankings)
    Tony Medrano: NR
    David Sinnes: NR
    Chris Stynes: NR

    1998: Roger Clemens (1999 rankings)
    Homer Bush: NR, but good bench player
    Graeme Lloyd: NR, but established RP
    David Wells: NR, but above average starter

    2008: CC Sabathia (2009 rankings)
    Rob Bryson: NR
    Zach Jackson: NR
    Matt LaPorta: #27

    2009: Cliff Lee WITH Ben Francisco (2010 rankings)
    Carlos Carrasco: NR
    Jason Knapp: #64
    Jason Donald: NR
    Lou Marson: NR

    Here is the Dickey trade in 2012 (2013 rankings)
    Noah Syndergaard: #54
    Travis d’Arnaud: #23
    Wulimer Becerra: NR
    John Buck: NR, but above average backup

    Now that you’ve had your question answered, respond to my “childish tantrum” (which is a disrespectful thing to say, but I know you don’t care).

  • Mikey

    And which prospect did Sandy get that was ranked #9 overall in the MiL Rankings?
    Hmmm?