Mets Evaluator Says Syndergaard Reminds Him Of 19-Year Old Gooden

syndergaard by by BRETT BARR USATSI

March 1

I just wanted to quickly update this post on Syndergaard with something Mike Puma tweeted last night.

Syndergaard’s performance opened eyes. “What I saw yesterday, he’s Dwight Gooden when he was 19 years old,” a NYM talent evaluator said.

Hat tip to srt.

Also, it’s amazing how this morning there are no less than a half dozen Mets articles crying for Syndergaard to start the season with the Mets despite never having thrown a pitch above Double-A or thrown a pitch in a Spring Training game yet.

Be real people….

February 28

John Harper of the Daily News is daring Sandy Alderson to put his money where his mouth is. Essentially he’s saying that if he really wants to win 90 games to prove it by keeping his top players on the team – Super Two be damned.

It didn’t take long for Terry Collins to plant the seed. Noah Syndergaard was still icing his shoulder following a dazzling five-strikeout stint in the Mets’ intrasquad game, and the manager already seemed to be implying that it won’t be easy to keep him off the Opening Day roster.

“There’s going to be some more (internal) discussion about him as we get into this camp,” Collins said, “because he’s going to light some eyes up, no question about it.”

Feel free to read that as him saying: “Please let me have the kid.”

And you can’t blame him.

Harper says that if Alderson thinks the Mets should win 90 games in 2014, as he told Collins and his staff this week, the manager has a right to expect the front office to give him the best possible roster.

However it’s not that simple. Given the fact that the Mets are going to cap Syndergaard’s innings to a total of 150-160, what good would it do to have him start the season with the Mets only to be shutdown in early August?

I would rather see the Mets send Syndergaard to Vegas, limit his starts to five innings, skip a start after every four, and then bring him up in June regardless of whether we are in a Wild Card race or not as long as he warrants a promotion. I want to see Thor pitch for the Mets through September and know he’s ready to go in 2015 when he’ll be able to pitch 180-190 innings.

If Syndergaard blows batters away like I hope and expect he will this Spring, most of us will salivate at the thought of having him become a fixture in the rotation as soon as April. It’s natural for us to want to see him or any other phenom have a tremendous spring training and make the team. But we should also temper our enthusiasm, bite our tongues, and think about the big picture.

I believe with all my heart that Syndergaard is the real deal and will ultimately become the best pitcher in our rotation. One look at this young giant’s imposing presence on the mound and the only thing that comes to mind is SHEER DOMINANCE.

No matter what Thor does this Spring, lets keep our wits about us and let him go to Vegas. Then he can join the Mets when the timing and the circumstances are right. Let’s not screw this up.

(Photo: Brad Barr, USATSI)

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About Joe D 7835 Articles
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73, '00 and '15, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction and interact with other passionate Met fans like you. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
  • Dave Rosenbluth

    Totally makes sense.

  • Speak the word Joe!

  • Hitmanᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ✔

    They could take their time on Thor because I’m more concerned about the offense more than anything else. We wont win many ballgames without putting up runs or providing run support for our starters, which has been a huge problem for years. Basically, even if Thor makes his presence felt, what good is it if he has a hard time getting the W? We had that problem even with Harvey on the mound last season! While we’re on the subject of phenoms, I hope that they give Puello a long look in ST. I got a feeling that he’ll be beneficial out of the cleanup spot and protect Wright in the lineup more than their projected guy Granderson. After that, I hope they figure out the state of the middle infield.

  • Mike Lloyd

    Joe. Have to agree. As I’ve said in the past..this is the true prize of the Dickey trade. Must protect him no matter the temptation. Thor will be a monster.

  • Joey D.

    Hi Joe D.

    “the manager has a right to expect the front office to give him the best possible roster.”

    The front office has never given him that. Each off-season they got him inexpensive players that the GM admitted to Mike Francesa one could not expect to win with because they could only produce 50 percent. The first year he was at the helm and in the wild card hunt they stripped him of their top hitter and closer. The next season when in the same position and in desperate need of bullpen help though promised to be ‘buyers” the feeling in the clubhouse was that the front office “kicked them in the teeth”.

    Now even without Thor for half a year and Harvey out this season, the Mets still have the vanguard of a very good pitching staff and the front office has still not given the manger or those pitchers any help beyond that of replacing one right fielder for another.

    But what we as fans have learned is that the road to building a successful roster comes through “payroll concentration”. And so if the manager has a right to expect the front office to give him the best possible roster, then based on payroll concentration, Sandy most certainly has.

  • Scottydoeskno328

    I don’t understand why people think Thor will be called up this year and placed into the rotation. Can someone please explain this to me?

    I mean don’t get me wrong I would absolutely love to see it, but IF everyone in the rotation is healthy we don’t have room for him.

    Let’s go through the rotation, regardless of the order.

    Neise
    Colon
    Wheeler
    Gee
    Mejia

    And let’s not forget about Dice K, Lannan, and Montero hiding in the shadows this spring. If Mejia falters this Spring or Collins stupidly decides to place a veteran in the rotation like Dice K/Lannan, then we have 6 people competing during the season for 5 rotation spots already.

    When looking at this rotation, clearly there is no permanent spot open for Thor, unless the Mets wish to give him some spot starts and send him back down to AAA but everyones opinion is that when he is called up he will stay permanently, I just don’t see how. To even more complicate things, Montero is considered to be ahead of Thor developmentally so logically he would be called up first before Thor.

    I just find it weird that everyone thinks Thor will be called up and placed into the rotation permanently this season, I just don’t see it happening especially if Mejia finally finds himself and Montero is called up before Thor.

  • Martin

    Joe you think syndegaard is better than harvey? Harvey is already perhaps the second or third best pitcher in the game.

  • jcutiger

    No complaining when we don’t win 90 this year. If Thor is one of the 5 best SPs, then he should play. The trend now is to buy out a player’s arbitration years plus a year or two into the free agency. Screw the super 2 thing.

  • Ultimately he could be the best pitcher in our rotation because I believe he has the highest ceiling of them all. I’m not alone in that opinion.

  • Anthony Delgado *17 WS Champs*

    Let’s trade Colon for some nice prospects

  • Charles

    I don’t understand this reasoning. Syndergaard shouldn’t get a shot because of freaking Dice-K and Lannan and seniority? If Thor is supposed to be twice the pitcher that Gee is, for example, then he is not “blocked” by him.

    There are developmental reasons for starting Thor in Triple-A, there are financial reasons for it — but I don’t agree with your train of thought.

  • SRT

    It’s few and far between that a team has the same starting pitchers last day of the season that they started with on OD. Unlikely we’ll be that exception. Injuries always happen.

  • metFAN660

    Yes. A no-brainer.

  • vigouge

    If Thor is one of the 5 best SPs, then he should play.

    Why significantly damage the teams abilities to win in the future by stunting Syndergaard’s growth for 2, at the most 3 extra wins?

    The trend now is to buy out a player’s arbitration years plus a year or two into the free agency. Screw the super 2 thing.

    The price for buying out the arb years of a player doesn’t stay the same if he’s a super 2 player, it goes up significantly to the tune of one year at free agent market value. In 6 years that’s going to amount to ~18m extra dollars spent to get 12 extra starts in the players rookie year. That’s an astronomical cost for practically no return and that’s not even considering the loss of the extra year of control which would mean another year of having to pay the guy ~18m.

  • Charles

    I can totally under this philosophy. The players who can best help the Mets should be on the Mets. If Syndergaard is ready, then there’s a legitimate argument for turning him loose on major league hitters.

  • jason bay

    Completely agree.

  • jason bay

    That isn’t a trend among super 2’s though because their typically getting 3 M or more in their 3rd year, 6 M in their 4th, 9 M in their 5th and 12 M in their 6th.

    At those rates why take less guaranteed when your practically guaranteed those types of raises annually without giving up FA years?

  • jason bay

    Exactly and that typically precludes a deal getting done.

    12 starts of Thor the first half of 2014 could cost us a few years of him down the road.

  • IndianaMet

    Agree with everything except pitch counts, not innings as he throws in Vegas.

    I would rather see 90 wins for the next ten years, not going for broke this year because Sandy said so.

  • mr. belvedere

    No way Thor comes up before July imo…pitching less than half a year in AA and only being a 5 inning guy while there to stretch him out til the playoffs last year, he has to go to AAA and be more than a 5 inning guy for a few months…also not being on the 40 man roster is another issue…honestly I thing Dice K, Farnsworth, and Valverde should all have spots on the team for at least April and probably all of May as well…I’d start with Colon, Niese, Gee, Wheeler, and Dice K (or add Mejia and go with a 6 man rotation to start, could be necessary if Niese isn’t ready) and Parnell, Black, Valverde, Farnsworth, Torres, Edgin, and Rice…with Mejia and Familia coming off injuries, avoiding bitter cold of April, and the fact that you only need a 5th starter 2-3 times in April any way, I’d have both of them in AAA for April, let Mejia take 5-6 regular turns as a starter in Vegas and Familia work regularly as the closer…come the first week of May bring them up and cut bait with Dice and either Farns/Valverde…come June bring up Montero and come July bring up Thor

  • jason bay

    Could not agree more.

  • Metfan9876

    This guy is too good to mess with. Let him continue to develop.

  • Mets

    I don’t see how Syndergaard’s ceiling is higher than Matt Harvey’s 2013.

  • jason bay

    In 2011 it was trade Beltran or get nothing for him and in 2012 we lost our #1 and #4 starter in late June after having lost our #2 starter in April.

    Taking shortcuts has cost this team numerous times and in numerous ways. Thankfully that is no longer the plan.

  • vigouge

    It’s just a really poor allocation of resources given the difference between Syndergaard and the next guy is going to be so small in that little period of time. I get the frustration it’s born out of but we’re ultimately talking 30m+ flushed down the drain because.

    If circumstances were different and the team was weak at SP and expected to be a playoff contender than I could understand calling him up after the service time date, but we still have Montero who really deserved to be in the rotation sometime this year and then we have Dice K and deGrom who we can put up with for a couple weeks. I would just hate it if we lose one of whomever pans out between Harvey/Montero/Wheeler/Syndergaard a year or two too soon.

  • jason bay

    The smart move is to bring deGrom, Montero and Syndergaard up around June 18th – 25th.

  • SRT

    Mike Puma@NYPost_Mets

    Syndergaard’s performance opened eyes.
    “What I saw yesterday, he’s Dwight Gooden when he was 19 years old,” a NYM talent evaluator said.

  • Peter S

    Babying pitchers will only get them hurt. See Stephen Strasburg

  • XtreemIcon

    Or see the thousands and thousands of other pitchers who blew their arms out throwing too much before protecting pitchers was in vogue.

  • Andrew Herbst

    I think this makes a lot keeping Thor in the minors at the start of the season. I’d hate to shut him down if we are in contention late in the year.

  • agetting

    wheeler has an inverted W

  • metsfaninparadise

    The best thing would be for him to go to Vegas and absolutely dominate- 8-0, 0.60 ERA, 80 Ks in 60 innings. Force their hand. OK, it’s the PCL. 1.40 ERA.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Very good points Joe. This article is spot on.

    As much as Met fans are all anxious, a bit more patience is necessary.

  • Jack

    Make Mejia the 5th starter and trade Colon to make room for Syndergaard or Montero in June after Super Two.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Smoltz had an inverted W and needed Tommy John.

    Harvey doesnt have an inverted W yet still needed Tommy John.

  • Taskmaster4450

    “….honestly I thing Dice K, Farnsworth, and Valverde should all have spots
    on the team for at least April and probably all of May as well..”

    Let’s see how they perform in ST before awarding them positions on the 25 man roster.

  • agetting

    I agree…Harvey was throwing 100 MPH fastballs in the 6th inning, with better secondary stuff. Had pretty much the best year someone could possibly have minus the wins.

    Harvey was throwing like Nolan Ryan last year before he got hurt

  • Taskmaster4450

    And that could have been multiplied by 3 when you throw in Harvey and Wheeler in addition to Noah (4 if you count Montero).

    Then Met fans would be whining how there is no money in the budget to spend on FAs.

  • agetting

    Dice K and Lannan hopefully spend the year in AAA

  • Taskmaster4450

    Harvey’s 2013 lasted about 3/4 of a season.

    Let us see if Harvey is able to replicate Harvey’s 2013 season.

    Few can sustain that high a level for a long period of time. Those who do are named Kershaw, Felix, and Verlander. Maybe Harvey will be in that group, maybe he wont. Only time will tell.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Gee pitched 199 innings in the big leagues last season. He has no limit on him. Thor is limited to 150-170 IP this season total.

    Plus remember, Thor has pitched only 1/2 season at AA.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Cant trade him until near the deadline. He is a FA signing, ineligible to be traded at this time.

  • Taskmaster4450

    The bottom line is there is not telling with pitchers. Tanaka threw a ton of pitches…will he get hurt or wont he? Who knows. It is a total crapshoot with them no matter what an organization does. Nevertheless, the prevailing wisdom at this time is to nurse them along and no organization is going to take a pitcher like Thor and throw that out the window.

  • vigouge

    I could see deGrom up after the service time date to get that extra year of control simply because his ceiling lowers the potential loss considerably. I do expect Montero to be up midseason, Syndergaard, I have no idea. I want to see him make the same adjustments in Vegas that Montero made last year before I even begin to worry about whether he’s up in July, September, or May/June next year.

  • Taskmaster4450

    You really dont plan on having any pitchers in September, are you?

    Montero’s inning limit is about 180.
    Thor;s 150-160
    Mejia…who knows…threw 50 or so innings last season.

    Even Wheeler will be capped at just over 200. And let us not forget about Niese who doesnt usually pitch a full season.

  • Taskmaster4450

    It is a bit premature to call Harvey the 2nd or 3rd pitcher in the game. He had an incredible few months, that is all. He pitched into August last season….let us remember that.

    He is nowhere near the Kershaw, Verlander, and Felixes of the world since he hasnt done it. Let us see if he can sustain that level for more than 4 months of a season before anointing him top 5 status.

  • CJM

    I’ll gladly give up 90 as a fan this year for 90+ the next 4–’15, ’16, ’17, ’18. That’s what this pitching suggests. Harvey hits FA after ’18, but damn the rotation could be amazing until then.

  • CJM

    No scientific evidence supports or denies your claim, meaning it is useless.

  • mr. belvedere

    I think with their past resumes barring injuries they’ll perform well enough in ST to make the team but to me it’s more about giving Mejia and Familia a month or so to knock injury rust off and getting regular work while avoiding too many bitter cold outings…go with the vets for 1-1.5 months to make sure those two have put their injuries and getting regular work, then a month later bring up Montero, month+ later bring up Thor…and then have Lannan stashed in AAA til his opt out and DeGrom and Goeddel as injury depth in AAA the whole year

  • Joey D.

    Hi Joe D.

    Which makes me wonder that although d’Arnaud was the one who got the initial major round of publicity because he was major league ready perhaps it was really Thor who was the major core in the trade. Despite Travis’s rankings we see his tendancy to be injury prone which could easily hamper the natural talent he does have.

  • Martin

    Well that is pretty damn good because harvey is poised to dominate the game for the next decade.

  • vigouge

    Yup, there’s only been 2 real benefits to the Wilpon/Madoff mess. It’s forced the team to actually have to value assets correctly and kept ownership from getting antsy and throwing money at the problem.

    As mediocre as the team has been the past few years, had the Wilpon’s not been broke we’d be in the same position minus 3/4’s of our top 20 prospects and have a couple Bay-esque contracts on the books.

  • Martin

    I hear ya, but harvey pre injury 2013 was the best pitcher in the game along with kershaw, and was dominating and totally destroying the national league.

  • Martin

    Exactly. Harvey was a flame throwing beast that was completely annihilating batters in 2013. Jeebus, if syndegaard is that good the mets will be a juggernaut.

  • Martin

    Ok now we are getting crazy with the superlatives

  • Wow, quite the comparison. Wonder who it was. I don’t understand why something like this is said anonymously. What is so wrong about a Mets scout being impressed by one of our own prospects?

  • Pike Miazza

    “One look at this young giant’s imposing presence on the mound and the only thing that comes to mind is SHEER DOMINANCE ”
    Haha…was that a “JAB” at San Francisco….???

  • Bail4Nails

    I absolutely understand saving Thor’s innings. What I don’t understand is not moving a guy like Niese, when you know another injury is looming. A subpar performance from a Lannan still provides more innings than an injured Niese. If Niese goes down (likely) a guy like Lannan will be pitching anyway. At least this way, you get value in the form of a good bat by trading Niese before his shoulder goes. What is the point of keeping Niese until the trade deadline if he only makes 5 starts?

  • vigouge

    The abuse a lot of these guys see in the better college programs is astronomical. I think it was Phillip Humber and two of his college staff mates who were all top picks, all abused to heck in their Jr year, and all needed arm surgery most likely because of throwing 120-130 pitches per game at 19/20/21 years old.

  • Ceiling is based on best future performance, you’re using Harvey’s past performance. Think of ceiling like this: who will be better in 2016 and what’s the absolute best outcome for their skill set, tools and peak of development.

  • BCleveland3381

    If I wanted Niese in a trade the first thing I would bring up is his shoulder, just to hurt his trade value before we even started talking about it.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    What’s Noah’s offspeed stuff looking like ?

  • Mets

    I was thinking that 2013 was Harvey’s ceiling. Guessing you have doubts?

    Anyway, good luck to them both

  • BarnRat

    As much as I, like pretty much everyone, would love to see Thor from the get-go, hard to argue win any of this. Reality is, even assuming zero injuries, we simply don’t have a 5 man rotation for the full season because of the limits. So becomes a question of when it’s best to get ML innings from whom.

  • Anthony Delgado *17 WS Champs*

    That’s what I meant when syndergaard is ready to come up we should trade him.

  • Sean

    I agree with Bail4Nails. I’ve always wanted to get rid of Niese because 1. He’s a weak number 2 solid number 3 at best, lower rotation when he sucks. 2. His cutter is flat and it sucks. 3. He throws a little league curveball. 4. He can’t stay on the field. Why not trade him and Flores for Franklin, a reliever like Wilhelmsen and Ackley/Montero.They need starter and a 3B anyways. That seems like a good trade to me. We get relief help and middle infield depth.
    Or we could just do Rafael Montero for Franklin straight up which nobody seems to want to do either.

  • I don’t think this is something we will have to worry about. Syndergaard is starting the year in Vegas. So are Montero and deGrom, and maybe even Mejia. Harper’s point can be harped on all we want, but this is a business and baseball decision, and the kid will be up in late June at the earliest.

  • BarnRat

    And when we get to the point where these guys are available, I still think going to a 6 man rotation deserves consideration.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Agree 100%

  • Taskmaster4450

    His curve ball is nasty and his change up is much improved.

    I am sure he will work on the changeup some more with Viola.

  • Joey D.

    Hi CJM,

    Maybe no scientific evidence but we can go to baseball reference to see how starters through to the seventies and early eighties routinely pitched well over 200 innings a season year after year after year. Or that relievers – and closers – would pitch multiple innings as well.

    There is also what one can see today which one didn’t see at that time either – pitchers running out of a gas around the seventh or eighth inning. Ron Darling said that is because they have not been taught how to pitch a nine inning game and thus how to conserve their strength for an entire game and save some of their stuff for later on – what they do is go full effort on everything knowing they have a pitch count limit and there is no need to save anything for later on.

    In addition to the pitch count, there is also the current baseball strategy of having a certain matchup in a certain situation. But if a starter is having great stuff, why take him out for a certain matchup if he is still dominating at that time? How often do we see the opposing team simply grateful that starter is finally out of the game?

    So pitchers are both being babied – most general managers admit they are doing that due to the high cost of investment though having no idea if it helps or not – and no longer being taught to think like a pitcher expected to go nine innings. I have to agree with Peter – it is hurting.

  • peter

    Neise throws little league curveball? What the hell are you watching? his cutter does not suck either! he is a soild number 3 when he is on and healthy. relax. That said, I would trade him next off season for a power bat if I could.

  • peter

    Harvey will be locked up for at least 2 years of his free agency.

  • Joey D.

    Hi Teddy,

    It also doesn’t help that they are no longer being taught to pitch from a full windup with nobody on base which places less stress on the arm, elbow and shouder because of the natural physical follow through caused by forward motion. Pitching from the stretch at all times means continious use of the arm and and shoulder as a whip propolsion putting a lot more strain on the arm, should and elbow – and even more so with the inverted W.

  • jason bay

    What baseball-reference doesn’t show is all the guys who got hurt from throwing all those innings and never made it back.

    One thing that all Met Fans should know by now is the workload put on Generation K early in their minor league careers. 200 or close to it innings in their first and second professional seasons. Perhaps with a a little babying things might have been quite a bit different.

    Innings limits by the way were developed by Dr. James Andrews who knows a thing or two about pitching injuries.

  • Scottydoeskno328

    Im liking how the 2015 rotation options are shaping up.

    Harvey
    Wheeler
    Neise
    Gee
    Thor
    Montero
    Mejia

    If Mejia is our 5th starter this year and pitches like our ace (which he is 100% capable off) we have a seriously good problem on our hands here. We could be looking at the deepest 5 man rotation…ever. And if we trade two of these guys (which I really don’t want to see anyone go) for a bat or two. We could be looking at an incredibly talented team.

  • jason bay

    Could not possibly agree more.

  • XtreemIcon

    Nonsense, and false. That’s not how pitching mechanics work. Taking a small step backwards and then forwards for momentum (windup) alleviates some of the pressure on the legs. The arm motion doesn’t change one iota from the windup to the stretch.

  • Dave_in_Spain

    Because if you get injured or underperform, then you don´t get those arb raises. It´s a tradeoff between potential money earned and guaranteed money earned. For young players who are seeing big $s for the first time that guaranteed security is very tempting.

  • amen

  • Dave_in_Spain

    Don´t forget that Colon is also under contract for 2015, so if he pitches well this year he´d be prime tradebait at the deadline or after the season. Yes, I could easily see Colon and one other traded, with Gee or Niese more likely than the others.

  • Edward

    Exactly. Seems like met fans think they’re the only ones that know about Niese’s injury woes.

  • Dave_in_Spain

    Imagine Colon getting traded at the deadline for something useful. Then, in the offseason, something like Wheeler, deGrom, Puello, and someone else for Giancarlo Stanton. Or some package for Tulo or CarGo. You´d still have a rotation of Harvey, Thor, Niese, Montero, Gee. With Mejia, deGrom, Hefner, Mazzoni as depth. And Matz not too far behind. Very interesting possibilities down the road.

  • DrDooby

    JenrryMejia is a couple of years older and should get the first crack at an open rotation spot. While he has been brittle in the past, his stuff – when healthy – is almost as electric as Syndergaard’s.

    Rafael Montero & Jacob DeGrom are also further along in terms of their IP totals and – unlike Syndergaard – should be able to make it through an entire season if healthy with a cap likely in the 185 to 190 IP range. While neither has Syndergaard’s upside, they both could emerge as quality big league SP if their secondary stuff develops a bit more.

    And finally, both Harvey and Wheeler made 30+ starts at the upper levels (AAA and AA) which certainly did not hurt their development and instead seemingly prepared them well for a rather smooth transition. Syndergaard could certainly use some more fine-tuning of his off-speed stuff. While he could probably hold his own in the majors right now, he could be a lot better in a few months after working with Frank Viola – a true master of the changeup…

  • Flatbush0460

    I don’t follow you on this one Joe, sorry. You cannot get a pitcher, especially a young pitcher ready for MLB by throwing him five innings every 5-6-7 days, and then throw him to the wolves. It’s counter productive. He’s gotta build up arm arm strength and and stamina to get ready for pro hitters. He can’t be limited out of the gate

  • Just_Da_damaja

    its all about the defense.

    a good defense is a good defense no matter who is pitching.

    good pitching relies on good defense unless you plan on striking out 27 batters per game..

    if the avg pitching staff avg 11K a game, and say 6 flyballs, you still have 9 line drives or ground balls that your 8 fielders have to field. Not to mention your catcher has to handle all 120-130 pitches per game, handle the umpire, handle calling the game ( if he does that ), observe hitting tendencies, move fielders around to put them in a better position to handle what’s coming next, handle a pitcher’s emotions and play psychologist, throw out runners, handle throws from the infield/outfield, ( in the past ) block the plate, and almost none of this comes up on a stat sheet…

  • Agee’s Catch

    the point is that if he uses all of his innings up by august, he won’t be here for meaningful games in September.

  • BarnRat

    Scotty, off topic but I just finished re-watching Eurotrip.

    On-topic, agree with your analysis. If he can stay healthy, Mejia could be a stud, even in this rotation.

  • oleosmirf

    The thing is the Mets might not have a need to call-up Noah even after the super-two deadline.

    If the combination of Wheeler, Gee, Niese, Mejia, Montero, Dice-K and Colon are pitching well, then you’re not going to demote or move one to the BP for him. And even if you trade Gee or Colon, you still might not have “room”. I think it’s very possible that 6 out of those 7 have sub 4.00 ERAs.

    It might be in the Mets best interest to use Noah as a reliever in order to limit his innings and then if the Mets are out of contention late in the year, he could move back into the rotation, or if Montero or Mejia are approaching their own innings limits they can swap roles with him.

  • BarnRat

    Wouldn’t we rather move to a 6 man rotation to create room and save innings rather than swapping between starting and relief?

  • oleosmirf

    If the Mets rotation is that good where there is no opening for Noah, that means the Mets would almost assuredly be contending for a playoff spot. You’re not going to disrupt that just for the benefit of a pitcher, while very highly rated, is not guaranteed success and might have some growing pains.

    Therefore, if the Mets are in a playoff race, the Mets would much rather have Noah available in August and September out of the pen (where he can really just rely on his fastball), than hit his innings limit in Las Vegas and be shut down.

    And he would still have enough innings left to start due to injury or innings limits to others or b/c they fell out of contention.

  • Benny

    This innings-limit crap is BS!

    First of all, there is no scientific proof stating that the amount of innings is what is responsible for Pitchers getting hurt nowadays. I say “nowadays” because back in the day Pitchers were pitching a boatload of innings without getting hurt.

    Second, the reason there isn’t scientific evidence backing this ridiculous claim up is because it’s not the amount of innings a Pitcher pitches, it’s the amount of pitches he throws. If teams were to limit the amount of pitches a Pitcher throws per game, that would be more effective than limiting innings. Innings have nothing to do with the amount of exposure a Pitcher gets, because the most important number is the amount of pitches, not innings!

    Finally, Yu Darvish is a prime example of what I’m saying. The guy made the move to America in his age 25 season. He had pitched 1200+ innings already in Japan, in 2 MLB seasons he has pitched 400 innings already. Although we don’t know the exact number of pitches he has averaged throughout his career, I believe that number is what is keeping him healthy.

    If the repetitive arm movement Pitcher’s do is what causes injury (allegedly), then why are we going by the number of innings when it’s the amount of pitches that represent that repetitive arm movement? Just because a Pitcher threw 200+ innings doesn’t mean said person threw a ton of pitches, a quarter or more of those innings could’ve been very efficient innings where said Pitcher only threw single digit pitches, and the infamous innings-limit doesn’t take that into account.

  • Sylow59

    Cards did the same thing with CMart last year.

  • BarnRat

    OK, I like that scenario. I was thinking about a more mundane scenario where we have good pitching in the majors and minors, but not really in the playoff hunt and want to give experience to/showcase our strength looking to 2015. For guys we have pegged as starters, either with us or in possible trades, I’d like to show them off in that context. If we’re fighting for a playoff spot, I concede.

  • tierlifer

    Exactly what I was going to say about “little league” curve. If anything it’s above league average and his most devastating pitch! There were some guys on MLB’s XM radio station the other day raving about it when the news came down about his MRI.

  • oleosmirf

    If the Mets are out of contention, there is no way Dice-K (or Lannon) is going to block Noah. He’s probably a waiver trade candidate if he’s pitching well into August and we’re not playoff bound.

    In fact, if the Mets are clearly not playoff bound in June, I fully expect them to trade one of Gee or Colon at the deadline. Gotta create space for Montero and Noah somehow and maybe even Mejia if Dice-K is the #5 and we have a healthy and productive rotation.

  • Sylow59

    Throwing like Ryan without the walks.

  • oleosmirf

    I think that is exactly what Sandy’s intentions are. 2014 is the final evaluation year before we are ready to make some major moves.

    We will know by the end of the season what we have at 1B, SS and the OF. There wont be any last chances. If Ike, Duda, Lagares or Tejada (Mejia too) don’t emerge as our starters for 2015, then they will no longer be in the discussion. D’Arnaud and Flores are different b/c of their age and pedigree, but everyone else is going to be cast aside if they don’t produce in 2014.

    Me personally, I expect one of Ike or Duda to emerge as a good 1B, Flores to force a trade of Murphy and D’Arnaud to have a solid, but unspectacular year behind the plate. Lagares to me is a complete toss up as I can see it going either way. I will predict a platoon with den Dekker in 2015. I also predict that Tejada will not be considered a future starter after this season.

    That means the Mets will go into 2014 with 2 holes in the lineup an OF and a SS. The Mets can easily address SS by signing one of the many options on the FA market (if the Mets don’t acquire one this season of course). As for the OF spot, I expect that to be filled via a major trade for Stanton, CarGo etc. I expect the return to be one of Wheeler/Syndergaard/Montero + Plawecki + Puello + lower level pitching prospect or two giving the Mets a team of:

    D’Arnaud, Davis/Duda, Flores, Drew*, Wright, Granderson, den Dekker/Lagares, Stanton or CarGo

    Harvey, Niese, 2 of Montero/Wheeler/Syndergaard and one of Colon/Gee and an above average bullpen.

    In my eyes, that makes the Mets legit contenders in 2015

  • mad met

    Pitcher get hurt more now because of under throwing ,and the height of the mound.. when the mound was higher there was less stress on the pitchers arm .. the guys pitching the best should win the job period.

  • B-Met Fan

    The reality is the Mets face one of the toughest early season schedule in baseball. The opening 22 games on our schedule is brutal. Washington – Cincinnati – at Atlanta – at LA Angels – at Arizona – at Atlanta – at St. Louis in succession is more than challenging. That’s 19 games out of 22 with teams considered to be in the upper tier of the baseball pecking order just to get out of the gates.
    Syndergaard is going to pitch wherever the Mets place him. He will make pitches and complete innings. They will accumulate. If we believe he is a starting pitching ace of the future, prepare him as you would any starting pitcher whether that’s in Vegas or at Citi Field. Just don’t tell us this is a 90 win team and then fail to put the best product on the field on day one, especially with a schedule the Mets are facing. If the baseball side, not the business side, indicates he’s not ready, a real possibility by the way, then leave him down. If from a baseball side the kid is ready to get major league batter out, let him pitch in the Met rotation. Make it a baseball decision. The Mets fan already feels scammed from the business end of the baseball operation. Work to sign him to an extension down the road, like many major league teams are now doing with their young talent.

    The hard fact is if Harvey, Wheeler, and Syndergaard, prove to be major league aces that someday elevate us into the top tier, we are going to have to pay big bucks to keep them. In recent years we have not shown the willingness to play the game on that stage.

  • oleosmirf

    “The reality is the Mets face one of the toughest early season schedule in baseball. The opening 22 games on our schedule is brutal.”

    Another reason why Montero, Syndergaard, deGrom wont be in the rotation to start. Do we really want them to make their debut and potentially get rocked against those teams? A lot to ask of a rookie.

    Terry is trying to win as many games as possible so having Dice-K over even Mejia might actually be the right call, although I still think you have to go with Mejia if he looks just as good as he did last year.

  • Bib

    I have been sick of this for years, Collins already states he wants young to lead off when he didn’t win a jog yet, he than stated the veterans have an advantage over mejia. Without a pitch being thrown, and the mets holding players back who are more than ready, Harvey, wheeler, now syndergard, and I believe monterroo and Flores, especially the first 3, where th main reason is to save money 4 years down the road sends a terrible message to every player on the team, that not the bestlayers will play, and we r more concerned with saving money than winning, this psychology, creates a horrific culture in a locker room, like when Collins told the mets at the end of the season 2 years ago they should play hard so the team can try to finish third, are you serious, what. The hell does third place mean, and at that point they where not eliminated, he should have been ford after that statement, during the last mont the met lost almost every game, while the braves with a worse record made an incredible run to come within 1 game off the wildcard, but just fell short, and they had a worse record than us when he started talking about third place, that’s is rule number 1 in coaching until you are eliminated mathematically you play to make playoffs no matter how impossible you may think, that’s the thinking, and coaching, that takes a locker room, and has players wondering what the hell is going on, if sender grad, Monterrey, or anyone else earns a. Job, they should damn well get it, if the marlins can afford to start a 20 year old, and not wait til June, why can’t we start a 22 year old, you telling me we have less money than the marlins, oh and he was rookie of the year and almost a cy young, u want to fill the stadium, and not fall 10 back go with your best., I also worry these players who know they ra ready but held back for financial reasons won’t forget that when they are free agents and tell the cheap mets to kisse my ass

  • Dark HelMet

    Harvey/Syndergaard/Wheeler/Mejia/Matz by June. You heard it here first.

  • metsaholic

    “Do we really want them to make their debut and potentially get rocked against those teams? A lot to ask of a rookie.”

    Why not? Dwight Gooden was 19 when he made his major league debut in 1984. He pitched 218 innings and went17-9. The next year he was 24-4, pitched 276 innings and won a Cy Young. What is it about Syndergaard, Montero or deGrom (all now in their 20’s) that makes them more fragile than Gooden?

  • metsaholic

    Benny, I agree. As I posted above, Dwight Gooden was 19 when he made his major league debut in 1984. He
    pitched 218 innings and when 17-9. In 1985 he was 24-4, pitched
    276 innings and won a Cy Young. In 1986, he pitched 250 innings, went 17-6 and the Mets won a WS. Why is it that pitchers today in their 20’s need so much babying?

  • Flatbush0460

    Oh, I understand that 100%, but he can’t prepare himself for his Major League premier by throwing 50 pitch outings outings every 5-6 days. That’s ridiculous. When he gets to the majors he’ll have to be stretched out and that will be another 30 innings. It’sjust a bad idea

  • oleosmirf

    Basing any decision in 2014, based on something that occurred 30 years ago with a once in generation talent no less is simply ridiculous and any reference to that era is meaningless and is of no relevance to today’s game.

    It has nothing to do with being fragile, but simply the likelihood of success and financial implications.

    The chances of any of those players pitching very well over their first 4 MLB starts when pitching against that level of competition are very low and ignoring the financial ramifications for a such low chance of early success is simply not the way to objectively run a baseball team.

  • Bib

    that’s a lot to ask, this is not a sewing class, these are men, and pressure is always a factor, but starting them, if they earn, and believing in them, and telling the team, the best 25 players play, and the New York mets will not coddle players this is the bigs, these players especially the big 3, are corner the market type stars, they love the pressure, they all pitched better in the majors than they did in the minors, and so will sunder gars! with some fragile players I might see your point! but once you are ready it’s sink or swim time! not coddle! they are all over 22, at 20 Fernandez dominate th no for the marlins, so give it a rest with what happens if they don’t preform well! they can handle it! but putting a player who didn’t earn a position who fives up six runs in three innings is a lot worse for the team! team psychology! and fans who know the decision is based on the super 2 rule, which didn’t stop the marlins! why is it stopping us! rotation should be! colon! niece, wheeler! and my guess mejia! and syndergard will outperform gee! who I look to trade! inconsistent! never dominant, in that rotation we have 3 player who have average fastballs over 95 , and Harvey, next year! and the mets will most likely break the record for starting rotations a berate fastball in the history of baseball! not that means they win! but I would lobe to see almost every starter hitting 95 to 99 , maybe I’m a little high on Monterey, he won’t average 95 , but 93 with Maddox like control, are you kidding me the future is so bright now the culture has to change with it! and I believe that means colons and hiss tepid statements! which are extremely biased and unfair create a bad environment! sport phycholofy was a major of mine! and locker rooms are built on fairness! trust! he is not building that! or is Anderson! we need a tough coach who makes no excuses and plays the best players! Wally Blackman anyone,
    I km
    Mow he never would have utterer the rods let’s play hard for third place that guy is win or die trying, wake up alders on! and Collins it doesn’t matter if you are 2 pr 22 , fairness is recognized by small lac hildren, and certainly a locker room, don’t start handing out jobs until they are earned, I believe the mets have a great chance Atari dynasty soon! but not with this culture or coach! I hope I’m wrong! almost never! or alders on figures that out! he has done an incredible job! just screw the super 2 bullshit, if he start in late June and we miss wild card by 1 game, how you gonna feel, same way I felt when the mets refused to sign bonds after a season with 480 on base percentage, we missed the playoffs by one game, every thing matters, and bonds would of got you more than that game! oh we’ll, go mets, c u in June syndergard, the mets are cheap! and the guy who is worried an
    Bout him, he is nicknamed Thor and drago! you don’t get those nicknames without being abig tough son of a bitch

  • METS62FAN

    “I would rather see the Mets send Syndergaard to Vegas, limit his starts to five innings, skip a start after every four, and then bring him up in June regardless of whether we are in a Wild Card race or not as long as he warrants a promotion. I want to see Thor pitch for the Mets through September and know he’s ready to go in 2015 when he’ll be able to pitch 180-190 innings”
    I SUPPORT THESE CONSIDERATIONS 100% WITH THE CAVIAT THEY GET EXPLAINED IN DETAIL & PURPOSE TO THE KID IMMEDIATELY AFTER HIS SECOND BRILLIANT PERFORMANCE AGAINST OPPOSING BATTERS NOT WEARING HIS IDENTICAL JERSY, WHILE I KNOW IT WOULD BE EXTREMELY DIFFICULT I’D INSTRUCT TC TO MANAGE HIS APPEARANCES THIS SPRING KEEPING HIS EXPOSURE TO INTER DIVISION TEAMS TO THE BAREST MINIMUM LET THE MOST SIGNIFICANT SEASONAL OPPONENTS TRULY FACE THE SHOCK & AWE OF THOR’S LIGHTNING FASTBALL & DEBILITATING HAMMER CURVE WHEN IT MATTERS MOST PERHAPS WHEN THEY’VE SCHEDULED THEIR TOPGUN AGAINST US BE IT NAT’S ZIMMERMAN OR FISHIES’ FERNANDEZ TO SWAP A ‘WILLIE’ THEY’VE LIKELY ALREADY COUNTED, FOR A BOLDLY EMPHASIZED ‘LARRY’
    EXPLOIT THE INTIMIDATION FACTOR IMMEDIATELY WHEN LEAST ANTICIPATED, EXACTLY WHEN THEIR HITTERS ARE ALREADY ANTICIPATING A SIMPLE STRAIGHTFORWARD 9, NOT A DOGFIGHT WHERE THEY LOOK & FEEL SILLY.
    WINNING 90 IS NOT GOING TO JUST HAPPEN IF IT DOES; BUT IT MUST BE PLANNED OUT TO STEAL AWAY EVERY VICTORY OUT OF EXPECTED, DEFEAT AS POSSIBLE.
    WHEN I WAS DOING MY OWN PROGNOSTICATING FOR THIS PRESUMED ROSTER, I COMFORTABLY SAW 83 VICTORIES ON THEIR OWN MERIT WITH A CEILING OF 87 OR 88 IF LUCK & HEALTH BORE UP.
    FOR ME TTO UNDERWRITE A SIGNIFICANT JUMP TO 90 I WOUL;D NEED TO BELIEVE EVERY SINGLE EDGE & ADVANTAGE IN PLANNED OUT JUST AS BOBBY COX DID TO US & PHL WHENEVER IT APPEARED WE COULD BE CHALLENGING AS A RESULT WE ALWAYS FACED A ROTATION WITH SMOLTZ & MADDOX IN 2 OF THE 3 RARELY WERE WE TO EVER FACE THE #4 OR #5 SIMPLY BECAUSE IT ALWAYS APPEARED AS IF COX HAD MADE AN ADJUSTMENT, HAD CAUSE TO ALTER HIS PITCHER SEQUENCE DURING THE PRIOR 1 OR 2 SSERIES BEFORE OUR SCHEDULED TILTS. AT LEAST THAT APPEARED TO BE HIS MOTIVATION BECAUSE EVEN THE LOUSIEST TURN OF THE SCHEDULE SHOULD HAVE HAD THE ATLANTA BACKEND ROTATION IN 2 GAMES; BUT FOR YEARS I HARDLY KNEW THE NAMES OUTSIDE OF SMOLTZ,MADDOX, GLAVINE. LOGICALLY THERE HAD TO BE 2 OTHERS; BUT IT ALWAYS APPEARED AS IF THEY HAD OUTSTANDING NY FUGITIVE WARRANTS.
    ROTATION MANIPULATION IS OLD SCHOOL PLANNING @ ITS’ BEST & PRIMARILY WHY SO MANY TILTS APPEARED FEATURING SEAVER Vs GIBSON,CARLTON,JENKINS SO OFTEN THE VINERABLE PHL,STL “LEFTY” ENTERED THE HOF WITH A CAREER LOSING RECORD Vs ONLY 1 FOE, OUR MOSTLY 2nd DIVISION METSIES
    COX WAS OF THAT MANIPULATIVE ILK & ERA
    COLLINS NEEDS TO BECOME AWARE OF HIS MATCHUPS & MAXIMIZE THE POTENTIAL VICTORIES & AVOID AS BEST AS HE CAN THE MATCHES FEATURING THEIR 1 Vs OUR 5 OR THEIR 1 Vs OUR 4 WHEN THE POTENTIAL TO MATCH ZEROS IS MINIMALIZED PLACING OUR OFFENSE IN THE PRESSURE COOKER OF PERFORMING THEIR BEST AGAINST THE OPPOSING BEST IN A GAME THAT FAVORS THE PITCHER.
    I HAVE LONG STATED MY DEFINITION AS TO THE TRUE NATURE OF A TOP ACE IS BEING CAPABLE OF MATCHJING ZERO FOR ZERO WITH THE OPPONENT’S VERY BEST PITCHER EVEN & ESPECIALLY WHEN THE OPPONENT’;S LINEUP OUT GUNS HIS OWN BY A CONSIDERABLE MARGIN. IT IS BY THAT DEFINITION I RELISH THE MEMORIES OF THE MOST SUPERLATIVE #1 & #1-A DUO IN FRANCHISE HISTORY SEAVER & KOOSMAN, BOTH OF WHOM ENTERED THE ARENA KNOWING THEY FACED STEEL ARMORED GLADIATORS BACKED BY A WELL INTENTIONED FORCE ARMED WITH STICKS & STONES. YET NIGHT AFTER NIGHT THEY KEPT THEIR MATES EVEN OR CLOSE, AGAINST ALL ODDS.
    IT IS BY THAT DEFINITION OF MATCHING ZEROES THAT FOREVER DISAPPOINTED ME IN MOST GS WITH JOHAN, TOO MANY 1,2R LEADS SURRENDERED SEEMINGLY IMMEDIATELY
    BY MY DEFINITION WE S[PENT WELL OVER $200M FOR 2 MEMORABLE GS OVER 5,6Y; 06/01/12 AND THE 20+ INNING G Vs STL IN STL
    FINALLY, IMO, TO WIN 90, HR OR NO HR, ST IS THE LAST TIME IKE DAVIS OR LUCAS DUDA WHOMEVER IS LINED UP SHOULD EVER BAT HIGHER THAN #6 & LAGARES BATS LOWER THAN #7
    THEY[FLD MNGT] MUST PLAN TO SUCCEED IN EVERY ONE OF THE 162 TO WALK AWAY WITH AT LEAST 90

  • oleosmirf

    or the fact that trading a pitcher you just signed is not allowed lol

  • Hodges14

    What are the financial ramifications of being out of playoff contention in June again? If these pitchers are as good as the Mets have hyped them to be then they will sign them long term long before they are free agents. A 90 win season as Alderson and Collins has suggested would be a far more responsible way to improve the teams’ financial state than artificially holding player in the minors when they are ready to help the major league team.

    It all comes down to whether or not they want to win. Is the 90 game goal for real or is it an inside joke amongst the Mets hierarchy?

  • Hodges14

    The mound was lowered in 1968. I’m pretty sure they have enough data in the 45 years since it was lowered.

    Agree with you 100% that roster spots should be won through honest competition and winning at the major league level should be the priority for the franchise.

  • Peter S

    I know I’m in the minority here but I would no invest in a pitcher for more than 5-7 years. I want my stud pitchers from ages 22-28. I would use and to an extent abuse – them. I want the most out of them especially of I have a strong club. When they turn 29-30, I’m moving past them. And such, I want to have a pipeline of young pitchers at all times. It’s not just about injuries, it’s also because of effectiveness. Zito/Mulder/Santana/Sabathia/verlander/Pedro/Beckett/Oswalt are just a few examples of what happens later on. Of course there would be exceptions but they all fall apart one way or the other. The second contract can ruin a team financially.

  • Hodges14

    Go look at Seaver:

    Age 22 season: 251 innings
    Age 23 season: 278 innings
    Age 24 season: 273 innings
    Age 25 season: 290 innings
    Age 26 season: 286 innings
    Age 27 season: 262 innings
    Age 28 season: 290 innings

    All they are doing by limiting innings is reducing the teams’ chances to win. In today’s game the 11th or 12th best pitcher on the staff is on the mound when a game is on the line multiple times per week. 40 years ago a manager went with his best pitcher as much as he could.

  • oleosmirf

    So starting montero or Noah instead of dice k is going to result in a 15 win swing? Come on man

    The difference especially in their first few starts is negligible. Maybe 1 win if that.

    No matter how you slice it neither player is coming north. Even if u do extend them earlier it will be at a higher cost than if u delayed them

  • Hodges14

    It’s a little bit different situation with the Cardinals. They are fielding a playoff caliber team to start with. Bringing up or not bringing up one or two players is not the difference between a winning and losing season for the Cardinals. The Mets are a much thinner organization with less resources to exploit in terms of talent and cash to obtain talent. For the Met holding players back may result in them being out of contention by the Super 2 deadline.

  • Hodges14

    Winning = Full Stadium = Cash to pay your star players = Everyone from owners, to players, to fan base is happy.

    Losing = Empty Stadium = Star players leaving (ex Jose Reyes) because the owners can’t afford them = More broke owners = disinterested fan base = more financial loses = endless downward cycle.

    Winning should be the priority over Super2 dates. Winning as Alderson said is an attitude. That attitude starts from the top with management showing the desire to win.

  • metsaholic

    You know, (IMHO) I don’t think that Montero or Noah should be brought up now simply because (much like it was for Harvey last year) the offense of this team does not seem ready to support their efforts. I disliked the signing of Colon and CY for this very reason. The money needed to be spent addressing the teams ability to be an offensive threat.

    However the idea that… “Basing any decision in 2014, based on something that occurred 30 years
    ago with a once in generation talent no less is simply ridiculous and
    any reference to that era is meaningless and is of no relevance to
    today’s game.” …is just your opinion without any basis in reality. What is it that has changed about the game in 30 years as far as human evolution is concerned?” If anything, nutritionally, things might be better! Players “might” be stronger as a result of better training. But you’d have to give me something more than your opinion as evidence that Montero, deGrom or Syndergaard could not be brought up if the Mets choose.

  • Hodges14

    Giving up 90 wins this year has nothing to do with winning 90 games in future years. All it does is produce another season of misery for the owners, management, players and fan base along with limiting the amount of revenue for the owners to invest in the team in the net 4 years. There’s no prize for losing.

  • oleosmirf

    Baseball is a business first. The goal of the owners is to make money and in the last 30 years, players receive a far greater percentage of the revenue and thus demand high contracts. That wasn’t so in 1986.

    You’re not going to throw away millions just b/c Syndergaard or Montero might dominate right now. Very rarely do pitchers burst on the season and pitch like an all-star. The Mets have safer options and will use them.

    From a financial and development standpoint, you do not use Montero or Syndergaard in April. No if ands or buts. Doing so makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    4 April starts will not generate enough revenue, fan interest or wins to offset the millions to be lost by allowing them to go to arbitration and/or free agency a year earlier.

  • Hodges14

    The drop and drive motion that Rube Walker taught back when he was the Mets pitching coach seems to have protected a lot of arms. Just from the 1969 staff, Seaver, Koosman, Ryan and McGraw all went on to have careers of 20 years or more in the majors. That’s pretty spectacular in terms of the longevity of today’s pitchers and those guys (McGraw excluded because he was a reliever) weren’t pitching on innings limits or arbitrary pitch counts.

  • Hodges14

    Can we see him recover from TJ surgery first before predicting he’s going to dominate for a decade?

  • Matlack

    Hi Oleo, this is pretty much the scenario I see happening as well, though I wonder if that package may be a scooch high for CarGo. He’ll have 3 years of control left at 53mm, which is attractive, but may be difficult to extend. If I’m the Rox, I make that deal all day.

  • Hodges14

    19 year old Dwight Gooden was mowing down major league hitters for the 90 win 1984 Mets.

  • Hodges14

    How has the money making side of the business gone for the Mets over the last 4 years as they made no attempt to put a winning team on the field? Why is 4 years from now more important in financial terms than this year?

  • Macdaddy

    Legitimate points but despite the conceptual aspects of the game having truly not changed in 90 years, the business aspects have and thus there is logic to do the wait and see approach. But by me saying such doesn’t truly add the color nor facts that support such an approach…thus let me provide some perspective.
    First one needs to understand that the major issue in baseball today, one that darn few actually discuss, is that there is no cross training and that it is essentially a 24/7 gig from the age of 8 to when these kids (who merit a professional contract) find there way to a MLB roster. Thus the guarded approach is less about the work load now (and into the future) and more about conditioning them and developing them in the right manner to augment what are most likely poor training routines and being overworked from a very young age. Yes throughout all levels there are pitch counts but the challenge with any sport today is for kids to compete in HS, College and beyond…they unfortunately must start early and then commit to travel ball and unfortunately year round training and seasons. This leaves out the ability to participate in other sports and thus provide some rest for specific muscle groups and develop other muscle groups. Burnout on a physical and mental level is very real.
    The second aspects boils down to the concept of chemistry and winning at the grass roots level. For any organization to truly succeed through the draft and therefore set the tone that will resonate throughout the organization and up to the parent club level…you need to back fill through the draft and trades to fortify your farm systems, have those teams be highly competitive (both within the locker room and on the field) and set a central theme/organizational approach about how you train/work/carry ones self/professionalism and what it means to be a member of the Mets organization. That last aspect might be the most challenging because this a leadership issue and more importantly a process that only occurs through time…you have to run players through a system and that will usually take 5 to 7 years, whereby the entire system has been flushed and this winning at the grass roots level has permeated all levels of a given organization.

  • igotadose

    I’ve suffered losing too much the last 5 years and through the course of this franchise’s history to agree. If he light’s it up through the spring, pitch him!

    It’s not like this is a franchise with a long history of success. The malaise of the last 5 years is typical of this team for most of their existence. So… throw him out there if he’s your best chance at winning games. There’s more where he came from (Mejia, Montero, ..) if he falters. As for his health risks, he’s a professional. You *know* he’ll want to be out there. There’s no guarantees in life.

  • Joey D.

    Hi XtreemIcon,

    “Nonsense, and false”? That’s not how pitching mechancis work”?

    As appeared in THE ATLANTIC a few years back regarding the dangers of the inverted W:

    “Go back 40 to 50 years and look at pitchers like Warren Spahn or Juan Marichal and ask, “Why is it that they could pitch 300 more innings year after year and not hurt their arms?” There are several answers to that question, but the primary one is that pitches used to throw out of a full windup, which took advantage of the momentum of their whole body to give velocity to the pitch. In recent decades, with pitchers more concerned about holding runners on base, the windup has largely gone the way of the two-dollar hot dog. The Inverted W is the result of a pitcher trying to add speed or finesse on a pitch by forcing the delivery–in other words, his arm working against his body instead of with it.”

    When referring to Joba Chamberlain when he first came up THE ATLANTIC notes:
    “When he first came up, he was coming off the mound like the great Tom Seaver, with a powerful, effortless stride. His mechanics were similar to Seaver’s; as he started to move forward off the mound, his arm was already cocked and the ball just about his head. ”

    BLEACHER REPORT posed getting to the root of the problem quite easily:
    “Should not someone be talking to Tom Seaver and Jim Palmer and Luis Tiant and Bob Gibson and try to figure out what they did that allowed them to pitch so much for so long and to be so good?”

    So I did and came across a book in which Reggie Jackson and Bob Gibson were discussing pitching. Some of the excerpts are on the attached and though there are many different aspects of why pitching out of a windup might be of benefit to the pitcher because it confuses the batter, Gibson also said it takes more of an effort trying to throw hard from a standstill position. Check it out on page 44.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=drAw7ArFYTIC&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=why+don't+pitchers+use+the+full+windup+anymore?&source=bl&ots=l7QSJlawRA&sig=JLEjJ9vyDhotX0ntTd-IJtwjL2s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tgASU7zDLJC_kQf4qIG4DA&ved=0CCcQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=why%20don't%20pitchers%20use%20the%20full%20windup%20anymore%3F&f=false

    Now, that doesn’t mean going back to the use of the full windup is going to provide any magic cure about arm trouble as the attached article from HARDBALL TALK reminds everybody, however, my point and that of THE ATLANTIC article is again only this:

    “It also doesn’t help that they are no longer being taught to pitch from a full windup with nobody on base”.

    Though there is debate over the inverted W causing more arm trouble, there is no debate over what Bob Gibson said about pitching from the stretch as opposed to the windup – more effort is needed especially with the fastball. When they were able to pitch more innings year after year it was because they learned the art of pacing one’s self through a nine inning game,developing the arm strength to go longer so not to be out of gas by the end of seventh inning or so and part of that is due to less fatigue by use of the windup placing less stress on the arm and shoulder. Again, this might not prevent pitchers from developing arm trouble but it 1) doesn’t add to the chances, either and 2) allows them to be stronger if used with more proper all around training.
    http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2011/06/the-pitching-technique-thats-threatening-baseballs-young-phenoms/240351/ http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/08/28/the-long-sad-history-of-injured-pitchers/ http://bleacherreport.com/articles/144276-why-cant-pitchers-throw-as-many-innings-as-they-used-to

  • When Doc was 22 he was already 73-26 with 830 Ks. I can still feel the goosebumps and excitement of his rookie season. What an experience! I must have gone to about six of his starts that season when you didn’t need a second mortgage to afford season tickets.

    BTW, does anyone remember those free Mets tickets coupons on the milk cartons?

    I’m getting old… 🙂

  • Macdaddy

    I understand your perspective but this is what one would call a cause and effect evaluation, and unfortunately that can result in outcomes that won’t fit your particular cause/effect observations and desires. One of the major cause and effects that will come forward is something that has little to do with who you get but more importantly who will want to play for you…a churn and burn approach has been deployed in the past and it has not worked out well. I get the initial thought process that you want to play a numbers game and drive as many players through your system but at a certain point you will hit outliers that will test/tax your philosophy and at the time such happens and you choose to relent…then what? How does such resonate through the organization? The only reason the examples you provided ran into what they did was less about the injuries and was more about the economics of the teams they emanated from, whereby the A’s, Twins, Expos and Astros had economic constraints…and thus managed to a bottom line…granted that is just my perspective and doesn’t make my points a fact but rather is an accumulation of the reality with the players you provided.

  • metsaholic

    “From a financial and development standpoint, you do not use Montero or
    Syndergaard in April. No if ands or buts. Doing so makes absolutely no
    sense whatsoever.”

    Despite your exclamations, your statement is still a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. This team has a losing record for 5 straight years. They are projected (based on current conditions) to have a 6 year of losing. They are going from approx 4 million in attendance, to 2 million since 2008. This drop in attendance could be partially attributed to bad domestic economic conditions. But it also can be attributed to a poor product. Financially it would make sense for the Mets to bring some level of excitement to the team as early as possible. April is better than May, June, or July.

    Now, you may want to keep them out because of weather in the Northeast, but they will have to face that at some point anyway. What would be the logical reason to delay? I might argue that baseball careers are not as long as we all hope. We should not expect to have any of our home grown pitchers for more than 6 years. It’s likely that only one of them will still be here after that, and more likely that all of them will be gone. If baseball is a business, why not take advantage of their talent (and revenue) early, rather than overpaying them in declining years?

  • CJM

    You mean to tell me the Wilpons aren’t going to be selling plaques to the team’s fans that say “New York Mets, 3rd Place, NL East.”?

  • Macdaddy

    With all due respect Benny there is piles of medical evidence supporting the concept of pitch counts (not innings). Dr. James Andrews just published a study addressing such for the AAOS along with several other highly recognized and credible surgeons. Granted the tone of the study centered on youth pitch counts and training regiments but it is exactly this issue that now has every organization having to manage a prospective talents past training activities with oversight and caution today. In simple terms the extensive degree of training from such young ages is essentially wearing players down ahead of what their physical limits will permit. Unfortunately the human anatomy has it’s limits and it wears out…and if you over work that physiology then ultimately you will start seeing more and more outcomes like we see today.

  • oleosmirf

    That was more toward Stanton, but yes I agree.

  • oleosmirf

    The excitement of top prospects will not increase revenue enough now, to make up the difference for the money you sacrifice down the road because the overwhelming majority of the fans at the game are fair-weather fans.

    A young top prospect in April instead of Dice-K, Lannan or Mejia will not bring in the family of 4 or the 20/30 something crowd looking for something to do after work. The only thing that will is sustained winning.

  • Macdaddy

    I tend to agree with the points you noted above. If in this whole process the Mets can galvanize 2 to 3 rotation spots (which is possible with Harvey, Wheeler, Syndergaard/Montero/Niese/Mejia…etal) that become the core of the rotation for the next 5 to 6 years…then you have been amazingly successful. This leads to trying to figure out who becomes the stalwart in the bullpen and then obviously the positions you note. For me I still think that if they can stabilize the middle infield positions SS/2B/CF with a defense first mind (meaning well above league average in defense) then the Mets will be in very good shape for years to come. Then you fill the power slots at the corner infield and outfield positions.

  • metsaholic

    You sell tickets for May and June, based on what has happened in April. A poor April start, feeds into the narrative that this team is destined to lose. That effects revenue, and therefore opportunities for future improvement.

  • Macdaddy

    My only hope with Noah, which unfortunately did not occur with Doc is to allow him to roll with the pitches he throws. For example Doc had a blistering fastball and then the big uncle Charlie curve…but then the Mets Brass and one Mel Stottlemyre got hooked on the notion that Doc needed a third pitch and thus the intro of a change up and then when that didn’t work they tried a slurve. At the end of the day Doc was more than capable with the two pitches he had because he new how to spot his fastball and the curve was deadly. Yes being a coke head complicated everything and thus left us all playing the what if game but the notion of having an arsenal of pitches is a bunch of crap. I tell the kids I instruct that hitting is about timing and pitching is about disrupting that timing…thus I tell them to throw strikes, change speeds and work quickly. Once they have those basics down then we can advance to more complex discussion points that focus on scouting reports, situations, counts, change elevations, and being consistent with their mechanics on every pitch.

  • metsaholic

    At the risk of repeating myself, I say again…Dwight Gooden was 19 when he made his major league debut in 1984. He pitched 218 innings and went 17-9. In 1985 he was 24-4, pitched 276 innings and won a Cy Young. And in 1986, he was 17-6, pitched 250 innings and the Mets won a World Championship. What is it about Syndergaard, Montero or deGrom (all now in their 20’s) that makes them more fragile than Gooden?

  • Peter S

    I doubt anyone would want to play for those teams you mentioned. An the Mets wouldn’t be bringing in FA pitchers because they don’t spend on the so called 2nd generation contracts so even if they didn’t want to play for you, it wouldn’t matter (in theory). The key would be churning out top flight pitchers every 3-4 years. Remember, you can trade these pitchers at any point and bring in top prospects. It would also leave you with plenty of money to overpay to keep because you don’t have any $20million pitchers. Win one or two titles this way, and you would be a team people want to join.

  • everybodysbuddy

    Those are good points. It would be one thing if he came up and the found him struggling and needing another pitch, but if he can do it with two, then let him keep it simple and be dominant with his two. You don’t fix what aint broken!

  • oleosmirf

    That’s simply not how it works. The only way you fill the stadium is by becoming the “cool thing to do” and that simply doesn’t happen any other way except for sustained winning aka being in playoff contention in August.

    Who your #5 SP is in April is not going to make any difference in whether that happens or not.

  • Macdaddy

    In simple terms it’s making science out of things that don’t necessarily require a scientific view. I always use the bubble bee example, as every element of science says a bubble bee can’t fly but yet it does and more importantly no one is telling the bubble bee he can’t fly either. Pitching, as with any sports discipline, requires confidence…and if what a player is doing is working and the mechanics are not flawed…then don’t screw with the situation.

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    Yes, but after those three seasons, he was little better than a league-average pitcher. Substance abuse may be a component, but early overuse may also have been a contributing factor to his injuries in ’89 and ’91, and overall decline.

  • john q

    Well there was a cost to all those innings on Gooden’s arm/shoulder. He threw 1200 innings before he was 24 and then was injured in the 1989 season and he was never really the same pitcher after that. He also needed rotator cuff surgery after the 1991 season.

    Gooden pitched about 800 big league innings before he was 22 which was a bit insane in retrospect. And he already had about 350 minor league innings when he was 17-18 year old.

  • Chuck

    Interesting, METS62FAN. I recall what you are saying about Bobby Cox, and us always facing Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz. While I never checked on that, it did seem like we were always competing against the big three. Now I know why. Thank you for that insight, and I hope TC starts doing the same against our stronger opponents (and the Mets continue that going forward, no matter who is managing). And Seaver and Koosman definitely knew how to match zeroes for zeroes … our fearless (and peerless) dynamic duo. And I do have hope for our current team (even with the flaws), and even more hope for the coming years, as we strengthen our lineup. LGM!

  • Kobie P

    Just by reading the comments section, which I always promise myself I won’t do. I am glad some of you don’t run baseball teams. I understand some of you want to win now but the Mets can’t be reckless with player development because you are impatient. Thor hasn’t even pitched higher than AA yet and you want to put him in the majors? The difference between a AA player and major league player is massive. Let him pitch in Vegas for a couple months and get used to major league ready talent then bring him up near the all-star break like they did with Harvey. Using Doc as an example is folly. It is like saying because an event happened once before therefore it will happen all the time. That is ludicrous thinking. Especially if we nurture Thor and Wheeler takes the next step this year we could have the best or a top 5 rotation in baseball for a very very long time.

  • TJ

    Give him the ball for opening day and let him throw 240 innings. Strasburg and Harvey got monitored and limited and were wound up with TJS anyhow. I say let these kids air it out, let them log innings, and let someone else pay them in free agency after their 6th season.

  • john q

    Pedros,

    Yeah all of Gooden’s problems were blamed on cocaine and not on 1500 professional innings before he was 24.

  • Macdaddy

    I believe you are missing a basic element of my point, which is the cause and effect element. None the less, it’s not about…if anyone does or doesn’t want to play for the teams I mentioned but is more about the philosophy of the organization using your approach. On a conceptual level there are reasonable examples of what you are suggesting (The Cards obviously come to mind) but I think again the approach is less about moving these guys at a certain point and is more about getting these younger guys under contracts that pay higher than the norm but not at the level of a 2nd term contract. Thus on a cost metric level you are better served to lose $15M on a 3 year deal with a young guy than $50M or more on a 2nd term contract player. The point with such an exercise is your odds of failing against what the economic cost of failure is…lessens. Plus as we all know, players ultimately over perform on their early contracts and then under perform on their later contracts…thus equalize the approach and pay more in the short haul but minimize your loss potential.

  • john q

    It makes no sense to start Sydegaard on the big league club to open the season and have his major league service begin. The 2014 Mets are a 75 win team, two months of Syndeagaard won’t make much of difference.

  • Peter S

    It’s the philosophy of trying to keep these pitchers goin forever.i would take 3 years of doc gooden over the final 10 years of any pitchers today.

  • CJM

    Exactly. People remember the pitchers who threw 300+ innings a year but forget about all the guys whose careers were cut short by overuse. Not only that, but many people involved in the game, Bob Ojeda being one of them, believe pitchers are throwing harder than ever before. Throwing a baseball 95 mph repeatedly is unnatural and causes damage. The damage is undeniable–how to prevent the damage is what kinesiologists are still trying to figure out.

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    It fit the whole “War On Drugs” narrative very neatly. Also, sports writers aren’t really so good with logic and the whole “correlation/causation” thing. 🙂

  • CJM

    I never saw Gooden in his prime (born in 1990), but I’ve also been told he was just a two pitch pitcher, fastball/curve ball. And so batters figured him out. Lots of reasons for the downfall. Of course, smoking crack almost never helps.

  • Chuck

    Don’t worry, Stanton and Fernandez won’t be Marlins for much more than six years apiece. Fire sale, coming up!

    Even though I want the Wilpons gone (for many reasons), I would still prefer the Mets play it smart with Super 2’s. Baseball salaries are already extremely inflated, which means our cost of attending games is extremely inflated. Let’s not encourage them to make it worse. The cost of taking our families to the ball game nowadays almost matches the cost of taking our family to vacation in Florida several decades ago. Yikes!

  • Macdaddy

    I think it is fair to say that a number of elements were contributors to Doc’s demise. Beyond those aspects one constant still exists and that is he was exceptional and he set a tone for each and every start. Doc brought the tude and that was what made the Mets entertaining, despised and most of all feared…they simply believed they were better…and well they were.

  • Chuck

    Super 2 didn’t stop the Marlins because: Fire sale!

  • Macdaddy

    You’re spot on CJM. The human anatomy has it’s limits and what we are seeing is that the extensive training is taking us to our limits and when one runs at the upper end of the limits…then the shelf life goes down. For example you can run a NASCAR engine all out for 500 miles but after the race you have to take it in and rebuild it…the same could be said if you did that with the family car…everything has it’s limits and eventually wears out…we are just hitting the limits earlier and thus the results are what we are seeing.

  • Met lifer

    That is what made Seaver and Ryan so great. Neither one might I add ever had any arm troubles. I am in my 50’s and believe me they were very special and I don’t have to tell you they threw in the mid to upper nineties. The real difference was Ryan was fastball/curve and Saver was fastball/slider. Just Seaver had much more command and I never seen a pitcher even come close to losing so many 1run decisions.

  • CJM

    Yup. So even with “perfect mechanics” (we really don’t know yet what perfect mechanics are), a guy like Harvey will get hurt because he’s consistently throwing 95, 96, 97 mph.

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    You’re absolutely right. There’s a huge sampling bias in the “look at the ’60s/’70s pitchers” argument. It only looks at the survivors.

  • SCarton12

    Yeah, that’s it lose two years to injury while they’re under control and than let them leave as FA.

  • CJM

    Tim McCarver said he caught Seaver in an all star game and afterwards was the only time he ever had to ice his catching hand. I thought that was a great anecdote. The longevity of guys like Seaver and Ryan is incredible, but keep in mind that they are the absolute exceptions to the sport. We still have those exceptions today. Verlander and Kershaw could undoubtedly toss 300 innings in a season, but the game has also evolved past that point.

    Also I should add, I believe Ryan has said in interviews that he has constant arm pain now. I might be misremembering, but I think he’s said that before.

  • Macdaddy

    Ok…but what if you could have 10 years of Doc provided you took the precautions that should have been given you that 10 years. I guess the approach is to try and learn from history and as we all know even taking that cautionary approach does not mean one will have success.

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    One of the challenges of bringing up a 19-year-old. Much less opportunity to develop secondary pitches at the ML level.

    That said, those two pitches were just shocking. He destroyed batters early on.

  • Chuck

    Excellent point about working with Viola. That could be good for ALL of our almost MLB-ready pitchers, including Thor, Montero, DeGrom, and later on, Matz, etc. And maybe we’ll see Viola back in a MLB Mets uniform in another year or two …

  • Duffystaub

    Ryan didn’t have arm troubles but he did have the famous blister problems.One can argue maybe if they monitored his IP’s closely he wouldn’t have gotten the blisters!

  • Met lifer

    Wow, I was thinking about that comment by McCarver. He actually said he had a bruise on his index finger pad from Seaver. Remember, this is a guy who caught Bob Gibson who also threw really hard. I remember vividly watching these guys pitch. It was truly special.

  • CJM

    The games I’ve watched him pitch are incredible. I’ve been to the stadium maybe 3 times where I’ve felt the electricity that Mets fans are so fond of remembering. From what I’ve heard, the electricity was there for every Gooden start.

    On a different note, my dad believes bringing Gooden up so young was a mistake because he was not mature enough to handle the big leagues–he made a lot of mistakes outside of baseball, obviously. My dad finds it interesting to compare the career trajectories of Gooden and Clemens. Clemens was 21 when he debuted and perhaps more mature and ready to handle big league life. Of course, Clemens has had his own tragic downfall since debuting in the majors.

  • Macdaddy

    Look no further than one Mark Pryor…all the bio-metric analysis that he did in Alabama with Andrews that showed he had perfect mechanics did nothing to sustain any type of career. The good news for Harvey is that it is an elbow injury and not a shoulder issue. I think the issue for many of these guys is how they are putting undue stress on their shoulder…this isn’t the case for Harvey. But you are right…when you are pumping a fastball to the plat at 97 mph on a regular basis…eventually it will catch up with you.

  • CJM

    My exact thought when I heard the story by McCarver: “Didn’t this guy catch Gibson?”

  • cjr45

    The Marlins had injuries to two starters last year before the season began. They felt Fernandez was ready so he got the call.

  • CJM

    Yeah the shoulder is tricky. No surprise that side-winders can last longer, and of course softball pitchers can pitch forever. I think a lot of people were surprised by how long Pedro actually lasted in the majors. But when he was with the Mets, you could notice that his arm slot had dropped to three quarters, whereas he delivered over the top in his prime.

  • Macdaddy

    Seaver and Ryan also had very different mechanics and had huge leg drives…none the less, what made both exceptional is that they were pitchers not just throwers. Today we fall in love with the fast ball and frankly you don’t need to be 90 plus to be a great pitcher…look no further than one Greg Maddux or Tom Glavine. The best advise I ever got about pitching was a very simple one…and that was…not every pitch has to be 100% effort…

  • Duffystaub

    Listen you young whippersnapper let a geezer fill you in. Doc’s 1985 season was the best 1 year I ever saw a pticher have before and since. He was unhittable and brought such an air of invincibility when he pitched. And I go back to just after Koufax and the beginning of Seaver. To say he was just a two pitch pitcher is like saying Neil Armstrong only walked on the moon once.

  • metsaholic

    Gooden had 11 years with the Mets, during which he had winning records in 8. 11 years is a long time to have any pitcher. In fact, we can’t expect to have any pitcher around for more than 6 years. How many players do the Mets have from the 2004 season 10 years ago? Answer: only David Wright. Not one pitcher.

  • everybodysbuddy

    by the way Macdaddy
    I like your analogy, but you do know it’s a bumble bee and not a bubble bee, right? Don’t mean to be critical, but just thought maybe you didn’t know since they are shaped like bubbles and all 🙂

  • Macdaddy

    I am certain that Tom threw hard…but I caution everyone about one Tim McCarver…one of the great BS story tellers you could ever meet. Thus I tend to wonder what is fact and what is fiction…catching Tom for 2 innings in an ASG might be pushing it a bit. Granted I might be biased because I tend to not be a big fan of oneTim.

  • Duffystaub

    You are so right. I always blamed part of his demise on Stottlemeyer. He had Doc change his stretch delivery because runners were stealing on him. Never mind that there weren’t many runners on in the first place. But Stot had to fix what was not necessarily broken.

  • CJM

    Amazing analogy. I’m not disputing that Gooden was amazing in his short stint at the top. But losing a few mph on the heater and a little bit of snap on the curve could’ve made him go from unhittable to hittable too.

  • CJM

    I’m not a big McCarver fan either. At the same time, loving the game, I am willing to listen to anyone talk about their playing days. Fact or fiction, baseball’s lore is special and in his anecdotes, McCarver helps add to the lore. As a commentator, he is tremendously poor.

  • Met lifer

    Yes, I remember that well. That was from throwing the incredible curve he had. I pitched my self, of course not of that planet, and you would get tender from snapping it off your finger.

  • Macdaddy

    Agreed…I loved watching Pedro pitch. He too was a showman and each outing was an event.

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    This ties in to the “pressure” debate elsewhere in the thread.

    The team had been terrible for years, and suddenly this 19-year-old kid shows up and starts crushing everybody. He was an instant phenomenon. His arrival WAS the turnaround season.

    While Strawberry seemed to eat up the attention, I get the feeling that Gooden was overwhelmed at times by it. And Clemens? His sheer arrogance makes him able to handle just about anything.

  • metsaholic

    Matt Harvey had TJ surgery. Mejia, TJ surgery. Hafner, TJ surgery. It seems like the more these guys are babied, the more fragile they seem to be. The reality is we never know when these guys might get hurt. But we do know that their careers with any one team aren’t that long, and it might be best to keep that in mind, not expecting them to be here for 10 years, but rather more like 6 at best.

  • Met lifer

    Shea was truly electric when he pitched. The place rocked like a concert.

  • CJM

    Arrogance can lead to great success. I think they say that the richest CEOs in America show sociopath indicators. One reason Matt Harvey’s off field exploits don’t concern me as a fan–if he brings the same mentality to the mound every fifth day, he helps the Mets win.

  • Macdaddy

    It appears I am having a man-crush day here CJM…but once again I agree with everything you are saying. Tim is just one of those guys who has been around the game for so many decades (an very integral decades) that he is obviously going to have tales…be they true or embellished to only add to the lore. In all fairness the guys that I truly respect as announcers and frankly are the best in the business are Gary, Ron and Keith…now if you want to sit and listen to some great stories then try to get in Keith’s presence and I assure you (provided you can get him to talk about such past activities) that you will double over and die with laughter.

  • metsaholic

    Gooden had an 11 year career with the Mets and won 15 or more 6 of those times. Yes, smoking crack didn’t help. But there were a lot of guys doing drugs in the league, and if they were not doing drugs, they were drinking heavily. This was going on since the beginning of baseball. Some guys could do it (see Keith Hernandez) to name one.

  • Met lifer

    Yes he was. Tried learning a change and did later, but it was pedestrian. I was at 5 or so of games he pitched. It was a incredible atmosphere to say the least.

  • Macdaddy

    Hahahah…not sure why my fingers were typing bubble versus bumble…hahaha…that is just to damn funny. Maybe being 50 now has the mind working at one speed by the mechanical response with the fingers is at another. Wow…I am still laughing.

  • jdon

    If Harvey is really ahead of schedule, you could replace Thor with him when Thor reaches his limit. Not a bad swap.

  • CJM

    I watch a lot of games and can confirm that as Mets fans, we’re totally spoiled by GKR. Gary has forgotten more Mets history than most of us have ever remembered–that’s the kind of fan he is. I’d love an opportunity to talk baseball with those folks. On a more cynical note, I’d love to ask Ron about the nature of the A’s clubhouse in the early 90s–where he spent the last portion of his career. I’d love to know just how prevalent juice was in that locker room, and if he ever considered giving it a try to last longer in the bigs.

  • CJM

    I read a Micky Mantle biography when I was 6 or 7 years old. I consider it perhaps the beckoning in of my baseball fanaticism. The man drank like a fish, never rehabbed injuries, and worked the coal mines in Oklahoma in the off seasons early in his career, yet he was still one of the greatest to ever play. I agree, some guys can handle that lifestyle, and some guys can’t.

  • jdon

    all joking aside, I am not at all convinced that it is innings pitched that brings about these injuries. I believe it is mechanics. I never thought Harvey had perfect mechanics, as some of the announcers used to say. He always looked like he was exerting himself fully on each pitch. Pitching is unnatural.

  • Met lifer

    I love the thought of that, but really prefer him staying away and preparing for 2015. He is our fine wine, we don’t need him to rush back.

  • metsaholic

    If you read Mantle’s biography then you know that he as in constant pain and missed 400 games due to injury. I expect he did a lot of rehabbing if he had the opportunity.

  • Met lifer

    I would agree with you.

  • CJM

    He was never fond of doctors from what I recall. I think his career would be much different if he came up in a time like today, where medical technology is literally light years ahead of what it was in Mantle’s prime.

  • Macdaddy

    Ronnie has been asked that question and by Gary and Keith…the most recent memory I have of that centered on when Jose came out with his book “Juiced” and then after all the Clemens/Bonds fall out he did make note of what he saw. Which was nothing because he was not a training room guy…but he did say that it was clear that something was going on but exactly what was not outwardly expressed. Keith in contrast said that the drug culture during his era was more about what you did after games and not what you did to get prepared for games. His words were…no one cared what you did just so long as you showed up the next day and were ready to play and that it didn’t affect your performance.

  • Met lifer

    A great story about mechanics was when Seaver went over to the Reds. Sparky had all his young pitchers watching him and film of him saying he had the perfect mechanics. I knew someone who was at one of those camps and he could not believe how anyone hit him. And he was a big Carlton fan. Had much more appreciation after that experience.

  • trevordunn

    cant wait to see him on June 30 because sandy is a cheap gutless coward worried about super 2

  • tuscaloosatwins

    That can’t happen. Harvey is the key to the franchise. He has to sit out the full year and fully recover. Get him the best doctors and wait till 2015. He’s the crown jewel. Realistically, this isn’t a 90-win team, although if we fix shortstop, going over .500 is very realistic. So September will be time to figure out what we’ve got with other guys. As far as Synndergard, if we do look like we’re kind of in the wild card race, you want to have the option of having him in August and at least some of September. You’ve got to extend him. It’s not that hard; 6 innings is his max in AAA, and you skip him every 4-5 starts – or if you want him always on regular rest, every third start you tell him he’s only going 3 innings. The real reason he’ll be in AAA until June for Super Two, it’s not to prove much. You just don’t have him rack up innings in the minors.

  • Macdaddy

    Yes you can make the argument that Frank Cashen, Davey Johnson and Mel Stotllemyer rushed Doc to the bigs but it was also a different era, and frankly was the tail end of an era. Once the 86 team won the WS the way they won and how they operated became an approach of the past. This was highly ego centric team, which huge personalities and egos vying for attention 24/7…plus it was a team that loved to party and no matter where they went…they were the toast of the town. You look at that roster and it had tons of talent and a group of guys who new how to play hard and party even harder (with the exclusion being Gary Carter).

  • Peter S

    I be you can find more pitchers that have 4-5 great, dominant years than those that 10+…doc from 84-88 was the not the same doc in hi last 6+ w/the mets. (Was it 5 or 6) If that was in this generation, he would have gotten a 7yr 175m deal after 1988. How would that deal have looked the last 4-5 years?

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    The calls for him to start the season with the Mets obviously require him to have a solid Spring. That said, if he does, he should come right up and skip AAA. If the Mets are serious about 90 wins, so should Montero. Ready is ready. The jump from AA to the majors is not so steep that you need a full season in AAA.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Harvey should not throw a single pitch for the Mets in 2014. Absolutely not.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    It would if they won six or seven of his starts.

  • Sylow59

    It is probably driven mostly by genetics and the formation of the shoulder and elbow. My mother’s cholesterol has been north of 400 since the 1970s or 1970s and she is healthy as an ox at 85. I’m 55 and my a1cs were 10+ for 15 years and I have the retinas and the kidney functions of a 30yo non diabetic. Ozzy Osborne has no ill effects from all the cap he put into his body.

    Everyone has a different body make up and genetics.

  • Sylow59

    Tim has always played to his audience.

  • Macdaddy

    I too can recall the era’s you describe and was witness to many a Doc outing in 1984, 85 and 86…and yes 85 was amazing from the opening day against the Cards (although he got a ND) to the 16 k game against the Giants. Realize that opening day game was a 10 inning affair with the Kid hit a 10th inning HR to win the game. I and everyone getting on the 7 train that day heading home were jacked…and jacked like nothing I had ever seen.

  • Sylow59

    Mantle was also stupid. His father died young (alcohol related) mick en thought he’d die young too which is the driving issue why he never took care of himself.

  • john q

    It’s not like they’re going to go 0-7 in those games without Syndegaard. Maybe the go 3-4 or 4-3 with a different starter. Syndegaard at top form would be worth about 2 game+ for those 2 months or a difference of 77 wins as oppose to a 75 win season.

    Now if this was a good team, an 88 win team, they yeah those 2 wins might be the difference between a shot at the playoffs and no playoffs.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Haha. The Mets could very easily go 0-7 in any seven game stretch. We’ve seen it plenty of times.

    Of course two wins isn’t that big of a deal. But it could be five or six, not two. And certainly it would put a few butts in the seat, which wouldn’t hurt.

  • damn, you’re tedious

  • no need to start the clock on him this early. Assuming the financial restraints on the Wilpons remain in effect for the future too, I don’t want to lose Thor early so we can win a few more games this year

  • igotadose

    I am not a huge stats guy; I am learning plenty from this
    blog. So, please accept this comment with some sympathy if I get the stat stuff wrong. My comparison is with Justin Verlander. Verlander’s given 10 years of ‘Doc Gooden’ type excitement to his fans and team. Verlander’s 2011 season matches up well with Gooden’s 1985. I got my numbers from http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/verlaju01.shtml

    In his first full season, Verlander pitched 186 innings and has never pitched fewer than 200 innings since. So, in my model, I don’t see why, if Syndegaard, based on the team’s evaluation, is as good as a young Verlander or Gooden, and earns a starting spot in spring training, that the team not put him out there for a full season right away. He can be on a short leash – if he’s ineffective against the better competition, send him down to Vegas. But, if he shows he can dominate like Gooden did in 1984, in my opinion there’s no defensible reason to keep him out of the rotation.

    My old fat gut also is saying, “C’mon, homies. Do we really want Dice-K or Thor?”

  • Alex68 (Ch)

    Syndergaard. …….. gimme gimme gimme!!!!!!

  • Macdaddy

    Your points are well taken Igotadose…in your example it makes all the sense in the world. But then again, can one say that the Mets are where the Tigers are at with providing a supporting cast that would produce results that are meaningful? It is…to say the least…a paradoxical question.
    For me I am focusing on the process…if based on my vantage point there is this perceived process that Sandy and company are putting together…which is building from the ground up (Rookie/A Ball to MLB). Assuming such, then you want to develop chemistry and camaraderie within the ranks and most importantly at the MLB level. Right now you have too many variables with SS, 1B, OF and obviously the rotation/bullpen to then toss in a young 19 year old (sans all the talent in the world) when the elements of a cohesive unit are essentially not there. Now…yes I am a believer that the best players should play but with lessons learned from past efforts…a 19 year old nor even those that are 23 have experienced a 162 games season and one that I am assured will be a losing campaign. Thus if the sense of urgency is not there, that there are a host of variables that need to be resolved, that the chemistry of the MLB team could change dramatically over the course of the season…then why rush him or others to the MLB team.
    Lastly, I think there is a higher sense of understand with Noah and what he has the potential to do then what exists with other players like Duda, Davis, Tejada, ect…thus if you don’t have the best possible defensive structure in play nor an offense that can smooth out the bump for such a young stud…why rush the process.

  • igotadose

    Thanks for the well thought out and well written reply. I guess my gut’s reacting to the ‘sense of urgency’ comment. My sense of urgency is about me, not so much the team. Who knows how long any of us have? I’d like to see another world series championship in my lifetime, 1986 was 28 years ago and I suffered 2000 losing to THEM. It feels like there’s a pretty good chance with Thor, some of the other rookies and maybe some help in the infield that this could be the equivalent of the 1983 team, up and coming (Strawberry, others) with 2015 getting Harvey back. So, I’d go for it. Your analysis is sound, I’m simply disagreeing based on emotion.

  • Peter S

    So when the Mets don’t make the playoffs by 3 games, I don’t want to hear you complain. And I certainly don’t want to hear you complain of the #5 starter sucks for 3 months. Why would you trade a starting pitchers 1st year for a season 8 years from now?

  • Peter S

    Ok mets fans I want to take a poll:

    If you were a Nationals fan 2 years ago, and they pulled Strasburg from the playoff run, knowing what you know, would you take it back?

  • Andrew Herbst

    The Dickey trade could turn out to be the best trade in Mets history.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Lose Thor early? If he gets to FA, that’s the Mets fault. If he’s as advertised or close, they’ll give him an extension before that.

    And when your GM proclaims 90 wins is possible, there is a reason to start the clock.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Doc Gooden??? Really…smh…Syndegaard looks good but lets not get carried away here.

    Now as far as

    “Also, it’s amazing how this morning there are no less than a half dozen Mets articles crying for Syndergaard to start the season with the Mets despite never having thrown a pitch above Double-A or thrown a pitch in a Spring Training game yet.

    Be real people….”

    Joe D you make it seem as if that would be so impossible or as if it was sacrilege.

    -And you do it in the same article which you mention Doc Gooden, whom didnt pitch a game above A ball before he made his MLB debut.

    -Then there is Jose Fernandez who didnt pitch a game above A+ ball and we saw what he did last year.

    But if your point was to say, “Hey this is the Sandy Alderson run Mets there is no way “THEY” call him to the majors then you have a valid point.

    Many fans forget the minors ONLY purpose is for players who arent ready to compete against major leaguers. You dont have to go through every level. Fernandez got a shot because he looked outstanding vs MLB stars in ST. So far Syndegaard has looked outstanding vs. MLB players via intra-squad games. We shall see what he does vs others.

    P.S. I dont think its a chance in hell Sandy puts Syndegaard on the major league roster no matter how great he looks.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Syndegaard is making EVERYONE forget about “ZACK WHEELER!”

    I thought Zack would be the talk but you rarely hear ANYTHING about him. Its either Montero or Syndegaard…hell even deGrom is getting mentions.

  • Brian D.

    Alex, great profile picture!

  • 3 months from now he can come to the majors and not start his FA clock. We’re not trading his 1st year. We’re trading 2 months for an extra year of control. If ownership didn’t have money issues, I’d be all for bring him up in April. However, they do and apparently will for a long time. Therefore, I’d rather see him kept more cheaply for longer than pitch a few months earlier this season

  • that doesn’t make any sense at all. Sandy claims 90 wins, therefore the Mets should make bad personnel moves given the financial situation of ownership?

  • IndianaMet

    Take it back absolutely. There is no yesterday. There is no tomorrow. Only today.

  • Peter S

    So far 1 honest fan

  • IndianaMet

    Yes. Ozzy Osborne is perfectly normal and has never felt the effects of the dope/alcohol is a used.

    I agree with your point, not your example.

  • Peter S

    Probably good for wheeler.

  • Mikie A

    2015 rotation audition….HARVEY,,,WHEELER,,,,SYNDEGAARD,,,NIESE,,,GEE,,,MONTERO,,,COLON,,,,deGROM (who impressed me bigtime yesterday)…..Mejia….Mets have some depth and trade chips…

  • BehindTheBag

    I love that Wheeler is flying under the radar. I think he’s going to have a real solid season.

  • Flatbush0460

    You guys talk about thinking and acting like winners, I remember Davey Johnson demanding Gooden go north with the team in 1984. Worked pretty well for us then……

  • Brian D.

    I don’t know why everyone always has to make these unfair comparisons. Syndergaard is a great prospect, but he is not like Gooden.

  • Macdaddy

    I think the central theme with everyone’s comments…be they good, bad or simply pondering the state of affairs for this organization…is the following: Do any of us have a sense of trust with the coaches, front office and obviously ownership to actually believe that they will make a sound and well founded decisions, and that said decisions will actually turn out well for the organization? Since I am sure that the vast majority of bloggers putting forth their opinion have doubts about that exact question…it is then why we are having these rather dubious debates about Noah and more importantly what this organization is supposedly doing to produce a perennial winner. Bearing that thought and/or sentiment in one’s mind…I have to assume that IF the Mets had been a more successfully operated organization, that limited these Moses like walks through the desert of the MLB basement, then we would be focused on more logical and salient discussions. Instead the current novelty is to have these types of discussions and I for one am left with this rather uneasy feeling that no matter what the Mets elect to do…it will turn out to be the wrong move…It just seems to be that the two Jewish guys (Fred and Jeff) have more in common with the Irish and the concept of Murphy’s Law.

  • Mets Fan in NC

    I was 100% certain in the early winter that the Mets should break camp with the 24 best players regardless of Super 2. In the cold light of day I now think it’s best for the franchise to keep Thor and maybe Montero down until after Super 2. Lannan, Torres, DeGrom or Dice K can hold the fort and give us an additional year of control on both….otherwise Wheeler, Montero and Thor will hit FA in the same year.

  • Mets Fan in NC

    Both had the hook from hell 🙂

  • Mets Fan in NC

    My personal favorite
    Howard Johnson for Walt Terrell….possible the most best deal the Mets ever made….that was back when Mets had some of the best scouts and talent evaluators in the league….almost every acquisition was solid. Everything went to hell when we traded Dykstra for Samuel…and let Kevin Mitchell go because he was a bad influence….than came Coleman, Bonilla, Saberhagan etc…

  • Mets Fan in NC

    It was classic mismanagement on an almost Met-like level….Stasburg is your ace and you are a downtrodden franchise that hasnt won anything. You can’t shut him down. Pitchers today are way too coddled and that causes arm troubles. You could also keep the stress off a pitchers arm by limiting the number of sliders etc.

  • Alex68 (Ch)

    Lol, thanks Brian

  • Mets Fan in NC

    Fans will be complaining like heck when we have to trade someone because Wheeler, Montero, Syndergaard and Harvey all come up for free agency in a two year span…Thinking Super 2 is smart…

  • Mets Fan in NC

    I wonder who will be held accountable if the Mets come closer to 90 losses than 90 wins….Methinks Sandy is setting Terry Collins up…

  • I don’t think there is much risk of that. The pitching is just gonna be too good for that many losses.

  • Jack

    Is anybody else scared that the Mets are going to put anyone but Mejia in the rotation this season. I think he is going to be a stud! I want Mejia to keep reminding the Mets managers on how great he can be as a starter. I mean if Mejia doesn’t do well this spring i’ll understand putting a vet in that 5th spot but I want it to be Mejia. But worse case, I would be happy to see him on the team no matter where he is because he worked so hard to get back to the MLB healthy and at the young age of 24, which is surprising to think about. I don’t want the Mets to mess him up by making him a reliever again though and I’ll feel much more happy if he was a starter so we can maybe have another ace on our young squad.

    I do think the Mets might put Dice-K or Lannon in the rotation and put Mejia in the pen to make room for the two but I hope Mejia wins the spot. I can’t stress that enough.

  • jdon48

    lots of pitchers get hurt in ST or early on in a season, and without having been overworked the previous year. It is a crapshoot.

  • jdon

    he probably should not but I have a feeling he all

  • jdon48

    all = will

  • jdon48

    f you are REALLY focused on winning and he is one of your best coming out of ST, then you bring him on. All this micro management tells me that they are not REALLY focused on winning this year.

  • jdon48

    who says they would not have gotten 10 good years out of Doc if he had not blown his career through his nose?

  • jdon48

    or you could bring the guy in and give him a 6 inning limit. This obsession with 150 or 160 innings comes straight out of the ozone. Want to keep him at 180? Fine. And when you get right down to it, it is not even about innings. It is about pitch count. You can have a 5 pitch inning or a 30 pitch inning.

  • XtreemIcon

    I’ll say it again. Nonsense. You’re wasting your time with this, especially trying to use Bleacher Report as some sort of authority, or the Atlantic, who’s sports section falls under entertainment, somewhere in between Oscar picks and the perils of the new Star Wars cast.

    Your point is moot for those and the following reasons: Syndergaard does not have an inverted W, but Wheeler and Strasburg do, whether it’s from the windup or the stretch. You’d be better off watching all these pitchers than googling your point and hoping you can twist an article to fit it.

  • XtreemIcon

    Not true. Ryan and Seaver both have stated publicly they had pitch counts.

  • Lotus1209

    Mejia wont be in the pen anymore.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    I think Sandy wants to put the kid in bubble wrap and do everything he can to keep him off the field. Doesn’t even want him rehabbing in New York.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    How is putting your best pitcher on the field a bad personnel move?

    Yeesh. Everyone is so upset about the Mets not spending money. Here we have a pitcher that could pitch this season if we’re willing to pay him early and fans don’t want it.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    This might be the pinnacle of fan negativity. Not meaning any offense, of course, but it basically you don’t trust same FO that delivered Matt Harvey to the major leagues to deliver Syndergaard. I think only fans are concerned with Murphy’s Law because they expect the worse constantly.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Throwing in general is an unnatural thing. Sliders, fastballs, whatever – you can get hurt any time.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    I’m curious what Mets fans would want to do in the exact same situation, but with Harvey. It could happen next season.

  • because it may result in losing him an entire season earlier.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Again, the Mets need to sign him to an extension if he’s that good. Can’t worry about losing him a season early. If you’re willing to extend him, it’ll happen before that whether it’s a year early or not.

    I just don’t get it. Mets don’t spend? Fans freak. Mets have a pitcher who could help us right now? WOAH! WOAH! Gotta save money! You know what will help keep him? Winning baseball games.

  • Again, if the Mets are still broke 5 years from now and cannot afford to extend him, we’ll wish we didn’t start his clock a year earlier just to win a few games while losing him an entire season in his prime in the process.

  • WGmets

    I agree. Absolutely need Mejia in the 5th spot to begin with. Dice-K cant opt out until the end of may so if mejia pitches poorly or is hurt you have until then to bring dice-k up.

  • metsfaninparadise

    In 1983 Gooden struck out 300 batters in 191 Single-A innings and it was pretty obvious he didn’t need any more seasoning. The best way for Thor to rush the timetable, as I said last night, is to dominate at AAA and force their hand.

  • metsfaninparadise

    Davey knew…from his experience with the best Mets team ever, which only went to 1 WS.

  • metsfaninparadise

    Agreed. No one can explain why some non-smokers get lung CA and some heavy smokers don’t. You can’t predict individual outcomes, only probabilities. That said, I hope you’re taking better care of yourself now.

  • Macdaddy

    Hahahaha…too funny…absolutely no offense taken. I guess I could say that even a blind squirrel can occasionally find a nut…but I won’t. If they stick to the plan and it actually develops into something then consider me all in…but until Harvey, Wheeler, Syndergaard produce and actually anchor a rotation, then this could morph into Generation K revisited (Pulsipher, Isringhausen and Wilson)…and well we all know how that turned out…I am hopeful but Harvey is already on the DL…lets have some guarded optimism…

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Ok. So what you’re saying is you’d rather win next year than this year. That’s fine. I don’t share your opinion but you’re entitled to it.

  • What I am saying is 8 extra Syndergaard starts are not going to be the difference between playoffs and no playoffs this year. Losing Thor and entire season earlier than we would have otherwise 6 years from now just as he is entering his prime, however, just might.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    I understand. I don’t want to see anyone get hurt either, but injuries are random and you can’t really prevent them most of the time.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    So if the Mets miss out on a WC by three or four games, we’ll all sit around and hold each other.

    Eight Syndergaard starts could six wins. Hell, it could be eight wins. It could put us over .500. It could mean more fans, more money. But nooooooo. Let’s wait for that till next year.

  • WGmets

    Unless somebody offered you a million dollars to smoke crack, Which happens quite often actually,

  • and his replacement would be good for only what? 2 wins of 8? Since his spot in the rotation is going to be the best of Lannan, Dice-K and Mejia, I find that terribly, terribly unlikely.

  • Macdaddy

    Agreed…

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Well, if I told you last year that Marcum wouldn’t get his first win until July, you’d have called me crazy.

    And yet…

    They could lose all of Syndergaard’s starts too, but if he makes hitters look absolutely stupid in ST, you’ll want him too, regardless of something that may or may not happen six years from now.

    But it’s cool. Hopefully the Mets won’t even sniff a WC spot, right? That way you’ll be comfortable not seeing Syndergaard until June.

  • See, the only way your histrionics make any sense is if you believe that the fifth starter is worth 3 or 4 less wins than Thor over 8 starts. Since such a belief is bordering on the absurd, I am going to have to think that you’re just being argumentative for argument’s sake… or is this going to be one of those threads where you’re gonna play dumb and pretend like it is internet winning? Count me out

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Haha. Ok. Well the best players should start and if Syndergaard is the best player, I’d rather have eight starts from him than any other player we could bring up because it gives us the best chance to win.

    If you think Lannan or Dice K gives us as much of a chance, then god be with you. It’s going to be a long season.

  • over the course of a season, no, they don’t give us as much of a chance. However, weighing the potential loss of him a year early as he enters his prime against the improved record he would mean for the Mets this season by making 8 additional starts, it really isn’t even a contest in my mind of what should be done. See you in June, Thor.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Well, you’ve blown your cover. I know you’re Sandy Alderson. Very clever, Sandy, but you can’t fool me.

  • I am an incompetent halfwit who has never won anything and is a lying liar with a mouth full of lies and I don’t even like baseball and I hate the Mets and the Wilpons are the greatest and the #CORE aren’t a bunch of nitwits after all

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    And you want our best pitchers sitting in the minors! Yeah!

  • Andrew Herbst

    That was a great trade. Also, the Mazzili trade for Darling and Terrell was huge. We wound up getting eventually 2 members of 86 team, since as you said we traded Terrell for HoJo. Since Maz came back to the Mets in 86 as a pinch hitter, we had 3 members of the 86 team from the trade.

  • want? No. Do I believe it is the most pragmatic course of action which results in the greatest benefit to the team over the long run given the owners’ financial problems. Yes.

  • Joey D.

    hi XtreemIcon,

    Do you know anything about the one who wrote that piece for THE ATLANTIC?
    Allen Barra’s latest baseball book is called “Mickey and Willie: The Parallel Lives of Baseball’s Golden Age”. He is also the author of “Yogi Berra, Eternal Yankee”. Another one of his books about baseball published about a decade ago was called “Brushbacks and Knockdowns: The Greatest Baseball Debates of Two Centuries”. Barra also writes about sports for The Wall Street Journal and The Village Voice.

    So because his article appeared in ATLANTIC, to dismiss what he wrote by describing the magazine “who’s sports section falls under entertainment, somewhere in between Oscar picks and the perils of the new Star Wars cast” was completely out of turn and uncalled for.

    His reference to Tom Seaver’s fluid motion was completely accurate and you can agree or disagree with his conclusions but you cannot categorize his detailed research as nonsense and a waste of one’s time reading.

    And what about Bob Gibson when he said more effort was needed coming out of the set position than using a windup? Guess he isn’t an authority on pitching, either.

    And I was not talking about Thor at all. I was mentioning that baseball today has added another risk to a pitcher hurting his arm by the full wind up becoming a lost art. And yes, I had watched Seaver’s pitching motion throughout his career and have it on countless numbers of video. And I’ve seen Strausberg and others. I’ve been watching baseball for more than a half decade and because I am not a professional, Barra simply described my feelings in more professional detail than I could ever hope to express. That is why I used him and other sources as reference.

    I did not suddenly read something and think this was a good idea.

  • ThatGuyWhoLeavesComments

    Yes, worrying about something that may or may not happen six years from now is very pragmatic.

    The Marlins have more concern for winning than the Mets. That’s really saying something.

  • KilleronFire

    Although Gooden spent the 1983 season in single A, he did pitch in the AAA playoffs (very well) that year. So he did have some AAA exposure before coming to the majors.

  • the only variable is if the Wilpons come into money between now and then. However, if a realistic evaluation of their financial situation dictates that the financial constraints are likely to continue, then, yes, it’s practically pragmatism by definition

  • XtreemIcon

    You can talk all you want about Seaver and Gibson, but they’re the exception to the rule. Two of the most physically gifted people ever to live. How about talking about the thousands upon thousands of people who blew their arm out throwing all the time? If something works for a handful of guys and fails for many thousands, which is more likely to be right?

    How come you didn’t mention John Smoltz, who had a very long and successful career pitching not only with an inverted W, but also for a time as a reliever and from the stretch? Doesn’t fit your argument, that’s why.

    So you had your preconceived notion and tried to find something that makes you right, ignoring the many, many thousands of instances that flies in the face of it only to cite two guys who situation agrees with your point.

    I’ve read Barra before. I have his book on Yogi. He’s a tremendous author. But that’s all he is, an author. If the way it’s done now is so bad, how come EVERY team operates that way? Don’t you think that all the professional pitching coaches in all the professional organizations might have a bit better understanding than the guy who blogs for the Village Voice?

    Like I sad. Complete nonsense.

  • Joey D.

    “So you had your preconceived notion and tried to find something that makes you right, ignoring the many, many thousands of instances that flies in the face of it only to cite two guys who situation agrees with your point.”

    Yes, you are completely right. I totally ignored the fact that thousands of pitchers have injured their arms since professional baseball began. I never said that no longer using the full wind up could only add to the risk of a pitcher injuring his arm along with the use of the inverted W and not building up more arm strength by being allowed to pitch more innings and learn how to pitch a nine inning game by pacing himself like Ron Darling points out.

    Nor did I attach any article showing the rate of injury was not any different from years past. I only cited two who agreed with me to make it seem that the major cause of pitching injuries today stems from not using the full windup. I never said:

    “Now, that doesn’t mean going back to the use of the full windup is going to provide any magic cure about arm trouble as the attached article from HARDBALL TALK reminds everybody, however, my point and that of THE ATLANTIC article is again only this:

    “It also doesn’t help that they are no longer being taught to pitch from a full windup with nobody on base”.

    And I used the Barra articles because of the sources he used to compile his information. Besides Texas Leaguers he also relied on renowned expert Will Carroll.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Carroll

    All I said to Teddy was:” It also doesn’t help that they are no longer being taught to pitch from a full windup” and gave my reasons why. I do not feel this is the end all to the problems and never inferred that – just that along with not conditioning pitchers to throw more pitches and stay longer in the game to build up arm strength that not using the full windup was one of many factors that now adds to potentially more possibilities of a pitcher getting injured even without the use of the inverted W motion.

    Remember, Jonathon Niese was out a month last year because doctors concluded the slight tear he got was due to pitching in the frigid weather that April. What happened to the wisdom of the coaches then – or, for that manner, MLB for making the schedule too difficult to re-schedule games forcing teams to play under such adverse weather conditions?

  • Sylow59

    I’m talking about his internal organs, not his behavior. Physically he has no drug or alcohol relayed issues.

  • Sylow59

    Thank you and thanks to an insulin pump and continuous monitor – yes.

    Btw, my mother rarely eats red meat. She has the diet cardiologists dream of and her cholesterol is still 400+ yet my father consumed 5+ pound of red meat a week and his was 120

  • IndianaMet

    Agreed. Except for the most important organ. The brain. I’m sure his looks like Swiss cheese!

    Good to see you on this blog. Most of my favs have made the switch over. Stay warm!

  • He should do fine in Vegas, but they still won’t call him up until after the Super 2 deadline…barring an avalanche of injuries.

  • mets4lyfe

    His curveball is that good? It really must be a plus pitch at this point.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    its only a bad personnel move if u dont offer him an extension before he hits arb

  • Martin

    Tj is done so well these days that almost everyone come back 100% or better.

  • Captain America

    Harvey>Syndergaard>wheeler>mejia>Gee>Niese>montero

    That’s how I would rank them (leaving out the prospects deeper in the system and not sure on degrom)

  • Captain America

    Which pump do you use?

  • That is saying a mouthful. Lord, I hope so!

  • Sylow59

    He has Parkinsons. Otherwise his brain function is fine. Rodman is a different story.

    There does seem to have been an Exodus.

  • Sylow59

    Medtronic. I just got the new one. It has a turnoff for low blood sugars

    The monitor is a lot more accurate and a whole lot smaller to insert.

  • Captain America

    How does it compare to the omnipod which is wireless?

  • Sylow59

    Don’t know. My monitor is wireless Btw.

    I effectively use the pump for the monitor. My basal rate is 90/day and I need 50-80 units at meals. I use syringes for meals and use 25 units 2 a day of lantus. I am Type 1.5 (latent onset autoimmune diabete). it happened when I was 33 then 7 years on oral then no insulin production at 40; which is the normal pathology for 1.5. The amount of insulin is also not uncommon with 1.5 as there are elements of insulin resistance too.

    Why do you ask?

  • john q

    That 1984 team didn’t win a division or make the playoffs so in the end it wasn’t that big a deal. If they didn’t bring up Gooden in April, they would have brought him up in June and the Mets would have won 88 games instead of 90 games.

    Also, I don’t know what the salary and arbitration rules were back in 1984.

    Different team that had more young talent at the major league level. That team had K. Hernandez in his prime they had D. Strawberry in his second year. K. Hernandez went on to have one of his greatest seasons. They had young players in Mookie Wilson and Hubie Brooks. George Foster bounced back from his horrendous 1982 season. Jessie Orosco was one of the best relief pitchers in baseball. Ron Darling was a late 1983 call up. Walt Terrell was already on the team. Sid Fernandez came up mid 1984.

    The N.L. East was also in transition and was rather weak in 1983 so there might have been more of push for 1984.

  • john q

    Andrew,

    Yeah, the Mazilli for Darling and Terrell was one of the best in team history. The best overall trade in Mets history was the David Cone for Ed Hearn trade. The John Olerud for Robert Person was another great one and the Sid Fernandez for Bob Bailor was another.

    The Cone-Hearn was a really crazy one when you think about it and John Shurholtz was the G.M. of the Royals at the time. He also traded Danny Jackson for Kurt Stillwell about a year later.

    The Royals of the late 1980’s-early 90’s could have been a pitching powerhouse with Saberhagen, Cone, Gubciza, D. Jackson, C. Leibrandt and Kevin Appier not to mention Jeff Montgomery and Tom Gordon in the bullpen.

  • Captain America

    My path is similar probably a few years later onset but directly to insulin. Omnipod user with total use about 65 a day no other shots. A1c on pump consistently under 6

  • Sylow59

    I had an episode at 33 that lasted about a month. I took oral but really didn’t need them. I had a glucose tolerance test about 3 years after the diagnosis and was pretty much undiagnosed at that point. For 1.5 there is a lengthy honeymoon period as the pancreas shuts down. Maybe your initial episode was very mild and went unnoticed.

    The pump keeps my a1cs under 6 too. But mostly from the monitor. I was on the pump for 3 months prior to the monitor and my blood sugars were just as bad as pre – pump. Well, they were a bit better but still bad.

  • Captain America

    I might add the monitor too at some point. Very careful what I eat and enter into the omnipod. Hopefully the next version of the system will have the monitoring built in.

  • Sylow59

    My new monitor is 95% accurate. It gives readings every 5 minutes. You can see when things are getting dicey and react accordingly. Highly recommended.

  • Hitmanᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ✔

    “its all about the defense”

    True, which goes back mainly to what I was saying about the state of the middle infield. Murphy is a good hitter, but we need someone more balanced at 2nd base, one who can hit & be a good defender. I believe Murphy & Davis are endangered species on this team, especially if the latter has a great Spring with Duda as well as teams like Pittsburgh monitoring him.

    The shortstop situation? Still waiting to see Flores make a start at short.

    While the Mets are monitoring middle infielders, they should monitor Cleveland’s Jose Ramirez, who’s the odd man out with Elliott Johnson & Mike Aviles looking to be the primary backup in the middle infield to Cabrera & Kipnis. On top of that, Lindor will be the heir to SS later in the year….although would it be a bad idea for the Mets to monitor him too? Now there’s a guy I’d offer Montero up for (Cleveland needs top tier pitching).

  • Captain America

    How is the monitor applied – and how long is it in for?

  • Sylow59

    The one that I have has two pieces. The monitor which disposable (6 day life) is inserted opposite the pump. The insertion needle is rather small. Then you attach the transmitter which has a 6 month warranty so you can replace it every 6 months. I’ve had them last for 12-15 months. The insertion needle on my infusion set is a lot longer. The one on the monitor is about 1/2″

    The new one is a lot less intrusive. You hardly notice it. It is waterproof. I’d suggest getting a new one after 6 months even if the current one is still working and use one as a spare. They are expensive off insurance $500-$600)

  • DKNOKOZ

    Doc should’ve been a top 5 all time great. The best natural stuff

  • Andrew Herbst

    That was an amazing trade with Cone for Ed Hearn. The Royals had a great rotation in those days and Cone could have helped put them over the top. Also, some other great trades in Mets history were Ojeda for Schlardi and trading for Piazza.

  • john q

    The K. Hernandez trade is also one the best. The Jerry Grote trade is another. It somewhat sad in other way that there’s huge gaps of time where they didn’t even make one good trade.

    Yeah, unfortunately the Mets haven’t made many “good” trades let alone “great” trades in their history. Unfortunately it’s been mostly bad to horrendous trades.

    They also had an odd tendency of making a good trade and then trading away those players for nothing. They acquired Jason Bay and Jose Bautista for basically nothing in the early 2000’s and traded them away almost immediately for nothing.

    Ojeda for Scharaldi was a good one but then they traded Ojeda to the Dodgers for a shot Hubie Brooks after the 1990 season. That one made no sense. They should have gotten more for him because he was a solid lefty who gave the Dodgers a good season in 1991 and a somewhat solid season in ’92. Brooks was playing RF at that point and was pretty terrible in the field and hit about .238 for the Mets.

    I guess he was the replacement for Daryl????

    They didn’t resign Daryl which was a huge mistake, which in hindsight was the beginning of the end of that 1984-1990 run. Then they signed that extremely over-rated bum Vince Coleman and traded Ojeda and put Brooks in RF. 1991 was a disaster and then they panicked at the end of ’91 and gave Bonilla all that money with that “Worst team money could buy” disaster of 1992-93.

    Then they traded Brooks after 1991 for Dave Gallagher so that Ojeda trade was a big WTF??

  • Andrew Herbst

    Not resigning Darryl was a huge mistake. And letting Ojeda go was bad. Those trades were the end of that great run we had in the late 80’s. Also, we had Jeremy Burtnitz, but then traded him away. I wish we could have Bay in that 06 lineup. Or Bautista.

  • john q

    Yeah, it’s amazing the profound ripple effect that “non” signing had. And I think Strawberry got something like $20 million over 5 years, which is nothing in today’s market.

    The Mets didn’t sign Strawberry so they went out and signed Coleman which was a disaster. They traded Ojeda because they needed a RF so they got Hubie Brooks which was disaster. They panicked in ’92 and signed Bonilla to that crazy contract and he didn’t have a position. They signed a 36 year old Eddie Murray. They let Viola go to free agency. Then they traded Cone in ’92 because they weren’t going to sign him.

    They should have just signed Strawberry, kept Ojeda, signed Viola and signed Cone. Even if they didn’t re-sign Daryl, they shouldn’t have signed Bonilla and used that money to re-sign Viola and Cone.

    And then Strawberry’s career went off the rails in L.A.

  • Andrew Herbst

    Yep. Not signing Straw was one of the worst decisions ever made in Met history. It affected them for years.

  • Dark HelMet

    I responded to someone posting about 2015.

  • john q

    It seems like that team was so schizophrenic in those late 80’s-early 90’s. They just seemed to make decision on the fly and make trades for the sake of making trades to create a buzz. It’s amazing how fast they dismantled that team & farm system. They give up 2 big pitchers (Tapani and Aguilera) for Viola and then they didn’t resign Viola. Cone was the major league K leader for 3 straight years and they let him walk. Then they gave the overrated Vince Coleman $12 million which was an enormous sum back then. They gave Bonilla $25 million which made him the highest paid player in baseball. It was just crazy decision making back then. They make a great trade acquiring Tony Fernandez and then he can’t play in NY so they give him away for nothing a few months later.

    This was also in the early days of WFAN all talk sports radio which I think influenced some of their decisions. The Yankees sucked back then so that station was basically WMET 24 hours a day. It’s hard to remember now but Strawberry wasn’t well liked by most of the Mets fans basically because they had such huge unrealistic expectations. I can’t remember many people being upset that they didn’t sign him. On the contrary, I remember a lot of being glad that he left, “Who needs him.”

  • Andrew Herbst

    I think Mets fans didn’t like Straw because he didn’t always hustle and his off the field issues. The Bonilla signing was awful. And not resigning Cone and Viola was terrible. Poor management back then.

  • john q

    Strawberry was put into a tough position by management because he was supposed to be the savior and the next Willie Mays etc. The fans never forgave him for never living up to the hype. Like I said, I remember most Mets fans didn’t care that he left.

    I think WFAN was a big problem back then because the whole concept of 24 hr sports talk was brand new and it was a Mets station. So if they Mets were struggling you would have 18-20 hours of non stop Mets bashing by callers. So I think management kind of got freaked out by those calls and made some ill advised trades to create a buzz. People have a lot of revisionist history about Dykstra because I remember people being ecstatic that they traded him for Juan Samuel.

    It is kind of amazing how quickly that team unraveled into a complete mess. That was a perennial 90 win team and by 1991-1993 they were the worst team in baseball.

    It’s also amazing how underperforming those teams were from 1984-1990. 1 WS, 1 NLCS and 2 divisions. Those teams should have made 3 trips to the WS during that stretch and they should have still been decent into 1993.

  • Andrew Herbst

    Had there been a WC back then, they could have made the playoffs in 1985 and 1987. And even 1984. At the time, it appeared the Dykstra trade was good. Samuel played well in Philly. It seemed that after 1988, so many things changed. Carter and Hernandez left. Gooden wasn’t the same pitcher then. Strawberry left after 1990. And Davey Johnson getting fired was a big blow.

  • john q

    Oh, yeah they had a bit of bad timing with the WC. Actually you can add 1990 on that list and if you include the top 4 teams in the league than you can add 1989 as well.

    The Mets also got screwed when they realigned the divisions and put the Braves in N.L. Eastern division and put the Pirates in the Central. It was just as the Pirates were beginning to suck and the Braves were beginning to dominate the division. The Mets would have won the WC in ’97 and won the division in 1998 and 1999 and won the WC with the old alignment.

    What’s surprising about the Mets if you look back to 1984 is that they had the best record in the National League from 1984-2001. No other N.L. team won more than 1 WS during that time so the Mets are tied with the top spot. Only the Braves had more than 2 NLCS championships during that spot. The big difference is that the Mets only won 2 division during that time period. 7 other teams won more and the Braves won 10.

    Samuel could hit but he was a terrible fielder even with Philly. He probably should have been a LF. Overall we can now see he was an overrated player.

    Carter got old really fast and was shot after 1986. He was actually kind of terrible from 1987-1989 so the Mets didn’t really have a good catcher during that time period.

    K. Hernandez got old and was out of shape and got hurt and was never the same.

    That team also was really horrible defensively by the late 1980’s.

  • Andrew Herbst

    That’s amazing they had best record from 1984-2001. Braves dominated during that time. Carter and Hernandez did get old really fast. Amazing how that happens. We could have won the wc in 98 as well as 99 and 00. Also 05.

  • john q

    Yeah, I was kind of shocked when I went back and looked at the numbers. They had the best N.L. record and the 2nd best record overall in the majors behind the Yankees from 1984-2001.

    The really shocking thing is that they only had 2 division titles and only 4 playoff appearances during that time period.

    The Mets had two really bad pieces of luck that happened to them around 1994. 1, they realigned the divisions and put the Braves in the East and the Pirates in the central. Then the Yankee juggernaut happened in the same damn city.

    The Mets actually had the 3rd best overall record in the N.L. from 1984-2011 and the 7th best overall record in the majors!! I was shocked to see that. But again the shocking thing is they only had 5 playoff appearances and 3 division titles during that time period. I mean that’s 28 seasons, 3rd best record in the N.L. and only 5 playoff appearances??? That’s almost impossible. The Padres and the D-Back each had 5 divisions. The D-back only came into existence in 1998 and they had more divisions and the same amount of playoff appearances as the Mets???

    The Mets had the 7th best record overall in the majors but were 19th in division titles. The Cubs, Padres, White Sox, Astros, Blue Jays, D-Backs all had more.

    They were 7th overall in record and 18th overall in playoff appearances from 1984-2011.

    The Braves are really odd because they were literally the worst team in baseball from 1984-1990 and then the best team in baseball from 1991-2013. And all those division titles and only 1 WS with probably the greatest rotation in MLB history?? that’s just bizarre.

    Actually Carter got older faster than Hernandez. Hernandez was still good in ’87 but he got hurt in ’88 and he was never one for strict conditioning. Carter’s quick and rapid downfall from 1987-1989 is something that’s overlooked in Mets’ history.

    In the old alignment 1969-1993, The Mets would have won the WC in 1997 with the Marlins winning the division. The Mets would have actually won the division in 1998 & 1999. The Cardinals would have won the division in 2000 with the Mets with the WC.

    Actually the Cardinals would have won the East in 2005. The Mets only won 83 games in 2005 and they finished behind the Braves, Phillies and Marlins.

  • Andrew Herbst

    The Braves really underachieved during that time. They’re lucky about the division alignments after 1994. Otherwise they might not have won as many division titles.

  • john q

    To tell you the truth, the only division title they wouldn’t have won in the old system was in 2001 so the realignment wasn’t that big a deal. Those were just dominate teams that would have won anyway.

    It’s easy to forget now but they won 100 games 6 times from 1993-2003 and they would have won 100 in 1995 without the work stoppage.

    What’s shocking is that they had a .600 win% 7 times during that time period but only won 1 WS and only had 3 NLCS titles. Seriously they had the best rotation in baseball with one of the greatest pitchers in MLB history and from 1997-2003 they had 2 (Andru Jones, Chipper Jones) of the top 10 position players in baseball.

    What that goes to show you is the unpredictability when you add playoff rounds.

    I think teams have learned that it’s basically optimal to go after 90-95 wins per season rather than 100-105. Those extra 10 wins in the regular season don’t mean that much and it gets really expensive.

  • Andrew Herbst

    Yep. Once you get to a short series, it’s so unpredictable. Winning 100 games vs. 90 games doesn’t make that much of a difference.