The Folly In Comparing General Managers

Earlier today, our friend Matthew Cerrone at MetsBlog responded to a mailbag question from a reader who basically wanted to know why Omar Minaya gets so little credit for a team and farm system that is still essentially comprised of a majority of his players.

omar minayaIt actually led to a few emails steered in my direction asking me what my thoughts were on the subject and who was better between Sandy and Omar.

On the surface, it’s difficult to just look at historical results and then use them to compare Minaya’s six-year tenure with Sandy Alderson’s first three years. Just as it is difficult to compare baseball players from different eras, the same can be said about comparing general managers, even when they are only separated by three years.

For one thing, the circumstances and dynamics were incredibly different and you can arguably say they were diametrically opposed to each other. It is nearly impossible to draw similarities between a team that is rebuilding and one that considers itself to be one or two players away from the post season, and that’s essentially what you are doing by comparing our current and former GMs.

The hope is that Sandy will soon be in the same exact position that Omar was, and only then can we begin to draw comparisons.

MLB: Philadelphia Phillies at New York MetsYou’ve seen me write on many occasions that I have yet to see Sandy trade for an All Star caliber player, and it’s true, he hasn’t done that yet. We’ve only seen Sandy trade away talented players for top prospects and he’s been remarkably good at it, netting such big names as Zack Wheeler, Travis d’Arnaud and more recently, Dilson Herrera and Vic Black.

On the flip-side, we’ve seen Omar go out and make trades for All Star caliber players like Johan Santana and Carlos Delgado, two players who were considered the best available at their positions at the time. But what we never got to see, was Omar trading a star player for a top prospect or prospects. You see the two dynamics, windows and short-term goals were completely different.

When Omar was the GM, the Wilpons had a brand new ballpark coming that they thought was going to sell-out everyday for the next 5-6 years. They demanded star attractions no matter what the cost, and Minaya was the perfect man for the job. The fans wanted stars too, and he was there to provide them. Within one year of the Phillips/Duquette era – a rock-bottom era with a farm system in shambles that had just traded away their only top ranked prospect in Scott Kazmir – the Mets were back in business. The winning business.

madoffOf course that ballpark never became the cash cow the Wilpons thought, and then soon after, all hell broke loose when the images of Bernie Madoff being led away in handcuffs were splattered on front pages everywhere. Now we had a win-now team that had no money and no way out. What happened next was inevitable.

Enter Sandy Alderson who was brought here to help free up some money by trading away his best assets, and lets give him credit for getting top value for what we traded. I’m not so sure any other GM could have gotten more. But Sandy was here to slash payroll, and slash he did.

Because of all the financial turmoil and an impending one-billion dollar lawsuit, Sandy had no flexibility for three of his first four offseasons. But he stayed true to his vision and his patient approach and rode out the storm. As fans, we rode out that storm with him.

It has now brought us to this point where we are today, and we’re now seeing Sandy try his hand at spending in free agency for the first time since he arrived. He’s spent close to $100 million already with his biggest acquisitions; Curtis Granderson, Bartolo Colon and Chris Young, all brought here to supplement a young core that this front office believes will contend for a wild card in 2014. We all hope they’re right.

confused bruceBut getting back to the point of this post – which was comparing Sandy to Omar – I hope you are intelligent enough to see the futility of such an endeavor.

I hope you can understand that just like you can’t compare hitters from the Deadball Era to those of the Steroids Era, the same holds true when comparing general managers. It’s a fruitless task that in the end only proves to be a considerable waste of time.

Instead, understand that every GM, good or bad, had nothing but the best interests of their teams at heart. Everything they did was because they truly believed it was best for their teams. And all of them desperately wanted to win – regardless if their teams ultimately did win or not.

Omar Minaya and Sandy Alderson were the perfect GM’s for the tasks that were given to them. Both GMs were good tonics for the team at the time and for the fan base as well.

Anyway, that’s the way I see it.

mmo

About Joe D 7834 Articles
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73, '00 and '15, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction and interact with other passionate Met fans like you. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
  • Harvey33

    Joe I wouldn’t call the man your friend. Matt has become a major shill and even shunned you from being allowed on MetsBlog.

  • Novito

    Pretty sure it was sarcastic lol

  • Captain America

    Thank you for leaving out the major blunders and short comings of each Gm.

    And for that I salute you Joe D.

    God Bless,
    The Captain

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    Well reasoned, well written. A pleasure to read.

  • Benny

    No GM is perfect…

  • joeyd1966

    Omar vs Sandy Part 476,873

  • Nice article. It’s good to see that there are still some objective writers out there.
    Apples and Oranges are hard to compare.

  • Alex68 (Ch)

    This shouldn’t be a question to begin with….
    Omar >>>>>>>>>>>Sandy and I hated minaya the GM since 2007 when he started giving PO’Ss contracts they didnt deserve to even begin with..sandy has arguably been the worst GM I’ve seen in NY

  • $14435385

    Refreshing, eh? And nary a “That said” in the whole post…

  • Well Cerrone did link to Teddy Klein Q&A article here so maybe there are some olive branches being shared. Maybe…

  • Taskmaster4450

    The one true constant in the Mets futility is the Wilpons. They were there through all the GMs…Alderson, Omar, Phillips, Duquette, etc..

    I believe the approach Alderson is taking was simply forced upon the Wilpons. They never ran the organization like this nor do they desire it. Fred and Jeff liked big names. They always did. Coleman, Bonilla, Vaughn, etc… Fred never had a problem writing out big checks although he did get frugal at exactly the wrong time (Manny, almost missing PIazza, Holiday).

    Omar was following the edict set down by the Wilpons. Omar wasnt allowed to go over slot in the draft because of Fred’s relationship with Uncle Bud (something that would pay dividends for the Wilpons years later). This meant Omar was drafting guys based upon player signability as opposed to who was the best at that pick. Also, the Mets didnt spend heavily in the FA market. Isnt it baffling that the Mets has a guy in Minaya who knew a great deal about the IFA market, yet the biggest signing bonus was handed out by Alderson. Again, we go back to the Wilpons. They had no problem handing out big contracts to name guys because they helped the team immediately. However, put some of the money, such as the $15M they gave Alou, into 6 or 7 IFAs and you would have been much further along. This idea was never in the Wilpon’s mindset.

    Contrast that with Alderson who is following the edict set down by Bud (or JPMorgan). His approach was to save money hence leaving him with nothing but a bottom up approach. Ironically, this was something the Met organization needed to do after the 2000 team fell apart. Instead, the following years (2001-2004) were met with more fruitless spending. So the Mets begin something 10 years later than should have been. Typical, but that is another story. The FA market was starting to dry up at the end of the Minaya tenure. Even without making the trades, the Mets were going to face challenges since the upper minors were bare and guys contracts were coming up. Once a guy hits free agency, all bets are off. As long as one team wants a guy, they can outspend them (even the Yankees with Cano).

    The book on Minaya is nowhere near done. There are still solid prospects that are in the system who were brought in under him. Most of them are IFAs since his draft choices basically have shown themselves by this point. But guys like Lagares, Flores, and Puello certainly are three pieces which could change the fortunes of the Mets. Couple that with Harvey, Matz, perhaps a rebounding Ike and Tejada, and you see how his “legacy” can be completely different.

  • chago

    My biggest gripe with Richie is that he wasn’t and hasn’t been truly committed to a franchise rebuild and that was his only avenue to a winning Met team under his leadership there simply wasn’t/isn’t enough money to go another way . He went halfway . He knew after he came aboard how bad the financials were if he didn’t before. And with what we know now and the moves he has made the only real decisions he should have been making a couple of years ago was where to trade Beltran AND Reyes AND Wright . He had no money to spend to speak of , the draft is only once a year , what else did he have to do besides collect his 5 million a year and make bad jokes ? If we are to believe that he is magical or at least superior to his counterparts in his ability to extract mega prospects from others for his top veteran players . Then imagine the stable of youngsters we would be building with if he added those presumed hauls to the yet unfulfilled but promising ones he made on Beltran , Dickey , Byrd and Buck . You can’t go halfway in anything you will fail it’s all in or all out but take a stand and do what you believe in 100% . He didn’t do that , he didn’t do that with Reyes and he didn’t do that with Wright and that is why his plan is flawed and will most likely fail !

  • For what it’s worth…

  • Hotstreak

    Obama or Bush. Leno or Letterman . And then Omar or Sandy. Its not pick your poison. It’s pick your agenda. Winning or saving money out of necessity (different owners different story). Is it an agenda against Sadam or an agenda for redistribution? Right or Left. Not wrong or right but who is your constituent. Theron lies the problem. Not what is best for your country or team but what is best for the your agenda and your base: Not baseball team..

  • philipag

    At least. This topic is beyond tiresome.

  • chago

    “The one true constant in the Mets futility is the Wilpons.”

    Hate to break it to you but we weren’t any great shakes when the Payson family owned us either . This goes way back before the Wilpons and probably before you were born .

  • Charley’s Twin

    Nice piece Joe.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Who is in the lead at this point?

  • Gland1

    From what I can gather…

  • RyanF55

    100% correct.

  • chago

    Leno or Letterman

    Carson will always be the king of late night .

  • RyanF55

    Well he’s done a hell of a job. Wheeler, Syndergaard and d’Arnaud in 3 years that he’s been here? He’s rebuilding with pennies so that’s no easy task.

  • Hotstreak

    Same era as general manager Frank Cashen.

  • chago

    That was the only GM we ever had that I was excited about . Now that was a man with a plan and a track record you could put your trust into .

  • jason bay

    I don’t think anyone could have prospered under the Wilpon Method and now that it is no longer possible we have a chance to build an entire Organization and both buy and add and trade for fresh horses from a position of strength like St. Louis and Atlanta do.

    The old model was the ultimate crapshoot, small window affair that always shut tight right after we crumbled for the last time.

    Thank GOD that’s all over with now.

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    Was he also responsible for the Earl Weaver Orioles?

  • Erin_II

    In other words….

  • Taskmaster4450

    “Thank GOD that’s all over with now.”

    You forgot a word JB….the word is for….for now.

    Dont forget, if JPM refinances the debt and loosens the rope around the WIlpon’s wallet, things might go back to the way they were. Alderson’s contract is up this season and Jeff is apt to name himself GM. The apple doesnt fall far from the tree. You know sitting there for 3 years not spending while the Yankees were signing big names is driving Jeff nuts. And look at this list of sensational free agents next off season. Who do you think Jeffy will make a big impact by signing?

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/02/2015-mlb-free-agents.html

  • NewYorkMammoths

    FIXED!!

  • chago

    You are giving a lot of credit for three kids that haven’t done anything yet .He traded a future HOFamer and a reigning Cy Young winner for those three . What did you expect to get a happy meal for them ? He should have gone all the way and included Reyes and Wright in his purge then we would really have a stable of blue chippers to build with . If you are impressed with what he got for an aging albeit future HOFamer for a two month rental and an unlikely Cy Young winner with not so stellar past imagine what we could have gotten for a top tier SS and 3rd base combo in their prime . I would venture to say at least twice what we got for the other two . If your going to do something do it all the way and do it right .

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    Isn’t that really just a weak attempt to get some page clicks by piggybacking on someone else’s original content?

    No one’s reading his copy-pastes anymore, so he’s becoming a more virulent form of digital media parasite, desperately looking for new hosts.

  • chago

    He is one and the same .

  • XtreemIcon

    I never bought into the idea that trading for MLB-established talent can define someone as a GM. Sure, Omar boosted the team by trading for Johan and Degado. But let’s not forget that Omar was only able to swoop in on Johan with the third-best package because the Yanks and Red Sox bowed out. And let’s not forget that Delgado, who turned Omar down when it was his choice, was one chapter in the novella of Loria selling players for nothing. I hardly call either a boon to Minaya’s resume.

    This is not Minaya’s fault by any means. I applauded both deals and still call the Santana trade/extension one of the best acquisitions in team history.

    The practice of trading kids for established stars in general is a strawman. It only exists because the selling team is over a barrel and has no other choice. The Twins and Marlins HAD to sell, same as the Indians HAD to trade CC. Anybody remember who they got? LaPorta is a bust and he was the best of the bunch. The Marlins HAD to sell Cabrera. The list goes on.

    Same is true from the reverse angle. Let’s pretend that the Giants didn’t tank once Beltran got there and hit the DL in San Fran. We can even assume that the Giants won the World Series. Would that change the fact that Sandy HAD to sell Beltran from a team not going anywhere and no compensatory picks at all? Would that have changed the way people looked at Sabean for the deal? The Mets HAD to sell. As did the Twins, Marlins, Indians and any other team who sold their top players for kids.

    The bigger test for a GM is the ability to identify what the best package is when you HAVE to sell, which Sandy passes with flying colors. There’s nothing to compare it to, though, because Omar never had the financial constraints and could always take on salary, so we’ll never know how he would have fared in this aspect.

    I don’t count the Wagner for nothing trade because it was on a small scale and doesn’t count because Wagner was coming off an injury and wasn’t at full strength and didn’t command any real value.

  • Erin_II

    Be that as it may….

  • RyanF55

    He was great.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Not trading Reyes was a mistake.

    To believe that Alderson had any say (ie opportunity) to trade Wright is naive. There was no way Jeff was letting that happen. Wright and him are buds, he is the face of the franchise, and Citi a told less season tickets would have been sold if Wright was traded.

    Jeff told the world what was going on when he made the comment about Wright being Seaver’s replacement as “ambassador” of the franchise.

    Alderson didnt even shop Wright at the GM meetings like Dickey. Why? He is a guy who is so anal that he is paralyzed at times. You mean to tell me that Alderson was going to enter into negotiations without having some idea of Wright’s worth in a trade? Not likely. It isnt in his makeup. Wright was not shopped because Alderson was ordered not to shop him. And Wright signed a contract that fit within the Mets cashflow situation i.e less money in 2013 than he made in 2012.

  • Mike Lloyd

    Joe D., hopefully this season begins the end of the argument. I liked Minaya, and think he was miscast as a GM. His true calling would have been as scouting director and completely overseeing the minors. I think after reading Teddy Klein’s piece that is even more apparent. My issue with Sandy, personally, is his jokes to the media about “what outfield? ” and his penchant for lawyer speak, double talk and his morose attitude.
    I’m a Met fan. I want to win. If we win, I’ll sing his praises. If not…he can argue to the media why he has 10 straight losing seasons as a GM…

  • RyanF55

    Beltran would have never resigned with the Mets. It was well documented. So you’d rather he walk and the Mets get nothing? Him being a HOFer has nothing to do with the situation –> he was going be a FA and he’d choose not to come back. Turning him around for Wheeler is tremendous.

    As for Dickey, how has that worked out? As much as I love the guy, his Cy Young season was an outlier. The rest of his career hasn’t been anywhere near close to that and so much as a cracked nail can make him ineffective. The return on Dickey is tremendous – I’ve never been surer than anything that Syndergaard will be a stud.

    I agree with Reyes, they didn’t do well handling that. I think they truly thought they could resign him, but yes he was handled poorly for sure and that’s on Sandy. As for Wright, he should have stayed here. He’s the face, heart and soul of this franchise and he’ll still have years left in the tank when this team gets its pieces in 1-2 years at a very reasonable contract if he actually has protection around him in the lineup.

  • Erin_II

    I hear what you`re saying, but you can`t discount the young pitching that he has been able to bring along and hold on to , through it all. That is what it`s all about in today`s game. Our pitching is what will win for us, and in turn, hitters will WANT to sign here.

  • Rocky Thompson

    How many if the prospects Minaya brought in would still be here if he were still GM?

  • chago

    I said he should have done the job right and purged ALL the top veterans for blue chippers where did I say anything about not trading Beltran ?

  • Connor O’Brien

    Alderson has improved the farm system (by both holding on to guys as well as acquiring them) and gotten very strong packages for players he’s traded away.

    Was he supposed to build on what he received in 2011? To say that would be contradicting your statement about Minaya’s bad job, would it not?

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    Wagner netted the Sox a compensatory first-round pick, no?

  • RyanF55

    I took “He traded a future HOFamer and a reigning Cy Young winner for those three ” differently when I read it as if you were emphasizing “how could Sandy trade a HOFer and Cy Young winner?” I now know you believe Sandy should of gotten more.

    Landing Wheeler for Beltran who at the time looked like his knees would cut short his career and getting Syndergaard and d’Arnaud for a guy who had one great season in over a decade were great returns. What did you want Trout?

    I get your point that you wanted to trade Wright and Reyes too. I agree with Reyes, I disagree with Wright.

  • Connor O’Brien

    I definitely think Minaya’s legacy will improve over time as some of “his” prospects rise through the system and hopefully turn out to be useful pieces. He will probably always be remembered as someone who made a series of bad decisions that justified his firing, but he did leave some players that could definitely have an impact over the next few years.

  • chago

    So what you are saying is that Richie is a no account money grabbing BS artist that will say and do anything his bosses tell him to even when he knows it is not the right thing to do as long as he keeps his job and nice lifestyle . Because a real man with integrity and belief in himself and his plan would stand up to his boss and tell him to let him do the job he was hired to do correctly or go take a hike.

    But wait I am sure Richie’s contract is guaranteed if he were to be fired he could sit home and collect his full sum . Tells me that he knew all along the Wilpons wouldn’t allow him to rebuild correctly and he still decided to take the money the job and lie through his teeth to us fans for years on end .

    Thanks for clearing that up .

  • RyanF55

    Exactly…..like Sandy has free reign to shop David Wright – the teams biggest face since Piazza and the one constant thing that the fans adore no matter how bad the team is. Come on now. He’s an untouchable, by orders of the Wilpon. He’s the perfect marketable player and there’s more to moving players than GM input. The owners have their finger on the trigger always.

  • XtreemIcon

    Yes, Anthony Ranaudo. He could turn into something. It wasn’t the best decision, especially since it was a stacked Supp class (Ranaudo, Syndergaard, Castellanos, Walker).But it’s not like Minaya had other GMs banging his door down with their top prospects for Wagner. Minaya should have kept him and gotten picks, but Wagner wasn’t worth any real players, anyway, so you can’t say Minaya passed up anything better than Carter.

  • RyanF55

    No, Richie wouldn’t tell the men paying him millions to take a hike. No GM would.

  • XtreemIcon

    I should add that Ranaudo was the supp pick. The Sox drafted Kolbrin VItek with the first round.

  • Okay, you just freaked me out.

  • Taskmaster4450

    The problem is, Connor, that Omar’s tenure didnt yield enough in the way of decent major league players. Certainly, the Wilpon edict that he was operating under made it difficult if not impossible. But the truth is he has only a handful of decent major league players from his drafts. Murphy, Niese, Parnell, and Gee turned out to be nice pieces. Harvey looks like a stud but we will have to see what he returns as. Ike is waffling, looking at this point like a flash in the pan. The 2009 netted nothing thus far with very little that is exciting there. 2010 still has Walters and Degrom who could make it which would be a big lift.

    Omar had 6 drafts and 6 years of FA signings. The IFAs are his hope and there is a lot of promise there. However, these are guys who were drafted in 2007 and 2008 emerging now. Tejada was about the only thing to come out of the 2005 and 2006 years.

  • Thanks, I appreciate that.

  • chago

    “I now know you believe Sandy should of gotten more.”

    We are not communicating efficiently LOL . I meant to imply no such thing I actually think Richie did very good job in the Beltran and Dickey trades. Especially the Beltran trade what could we possibly have expected for a two month rental he exceeded my expectations. My point of view is if you are rebuilding go all the way chances are when you start a rebuild players ages of Wright and Reyes will be declining when you are ready to win again so why not get youngsters who will be in their prime when that time comes ?

    Since he seemingly did a pretty good job of unloading Beltran and Dickey for good value who did not have the youth and trade value Reyes and Wright had at the time imagine what he could have gotten for those two on top of the other two trades .

    Did I explain myself more clearly this time ?

  • I agree, and I was as unhappy about writing it as you were reading it. 90% of it was a reply to an email and then I thought I’d polish it up and post it.

  • Many of the baseball people I spoke to about this agree that I should just say, thanks, guys.

  • Taskmaster4450

    “Because a real man with integrity and belief in himself and his plan
    would stand up to his boss and tell him to let him do the job he was
    hired to do correctly or go take a hike.”

    You are so full of it. Nobody does that. Did Cashman tell the Steinbrenners to stuff it over the Arod contract? How about over the signing of R. Soriano? Those are two contracts he publicly was against. I guess Cashman isnt a real man either.

    The guy paying the bills has a say over what goes on no matter how bad the situation. With Wright, it is obvious, that Jeff put his foot down. It is the same way that he (or Fred) pulled the rug out from under Omar when pursuing Holiday. They didnt give him the money. Of course, that is the 2nd time they did that, the Manny incident was the first time. Again, Omar must be a queen too since he didnt put his foot down over those situations.

  • Martin

    Thanks for insulting your readers.

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    Hat tip to Sandy Alderson faux….

    EDIT: Not referring to your article, to be clear…

  • Taskmaster4450

    Again, I think this shows more the Wilpon hand than Omar’s. Another move to save money which ended up costing the Mets in the long run.

    There are many instances where the free spending Wilpons suddenly turn cheap.

  • chago

    Richie had the Wilpons over a barrel they needed him more than he needed them and yet he didn’t have the balls to go toe to to with them on an important very issue . If not him at that time when the owners are broke and in a position of weakness having to hire the commissioners boy to straighten out their mess then who , when , where ?

    No balls led to a missed opportunity and a settling for instead of doing the job right and I bet if he talked off the record he would admit it .

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    Don’t worry. You can tell the real Cerrone by the spelling mistakes and tortured sentences.

  • RyanF55

    Hahaha yes I get you. I hear you that the Mets should have gone in 100 percent and moved both Reyes and Wright as well, and its a totally reasonable argument. Reyes should have been shipped out because the coupons knew they couldn’t retain him. Letting him walk without a contract offer was an embarrassment. I agree that a return from Reyes would have been ridiculous and that was a huge mistake. Call it being a fan, but I’m glad Wright stayed. We need a lifer in this franchise and I think if he actually is surrounded with talent, he can be so good. I know they could have gotten a lot back, but the team would never allow Sandy to shop him so that wasn’t even on the table. Reyes was a disaster and man we’d have 2-3 solid prospects coming up this year as well.

  • metFAN660

    Omar was a great talent evaluator. His downfall was his constant belief that the Mets were “just one player away.” He put all his resources into his starting lineup, and when they inevitably broke down in late 07 and 08, the replacements were a joke. His tenure is “Exhibit A” as to why a team needs to be built to win on all levels. Injuries happen…players leave for an extra $50 when they become free agents…players have off-years, and teams need depth to deal with those inevitabilities. Sandy Alderson seems to be doing just that. They’re not getting roped into insanely long and expensive commitments, they are drafting players they consider to have the highest upside…regardless of how long it’s going to take them to get to the Majors, they have made some sweet deals to shed players not in their plans for a bunch of studs, and they are trying to establish a core to build around. Yes, Jose Reyes left. It’s time we all get over that, and look forward to the really exciting future that is being built here. It’s not going to happen overnight, but it’s on the way.

  • jason bay

    Christian Yelich was picked after the first of those two picks Boston got for Wagner and Taijuan Walker, Nick Castellanos, Noah syndergaard, Mike Olt, Anthony Ranaudo, and Jake Marisnick among others were available with the 2nd one and that was the value in Wagner.

    The chance to draft one or two of those players.

    The following year Barajas was sold for cash when he could have netted a pick somewhere around where Fulmer was drafted in the deepest draft in a decade as well.

    These are the kinds of short sighted moves GM’s appointed by the Wilpon’s have repeatedly engaged in and that is why we always have so many needs and nothing to speak of to trade.

    It would take a very long leap of imagination to believe that Minaya preferred Chris Carter to the two draft picks and plenty of teams would have sent us someone for those two draft choices if Wagner had been shopped around. Hell Toronto spent 1 M buying a supplemental round pick from Seattle, think they wouldn’t have paid Wagner’s 2.5 M to get two of them? The target wasn’t Wagner, it was the picks.

    This is the downside of the Wilpon Method. Instead of getting something to go on with the emphasis has always been on cashing out when the season busts.

    Thankfully that’s all over now.

  • goorru

    The one trade during his tenure Sandy made that was to improve the major league roster was awful. (Pagan). The minor league pitching has improved but the position players are still non existent,

  • CThomp518

    Wow. Another great insight. Worst GM? That’s funny.

  • XtreemIcon

    I agree. The picks were the most valuable part of the deal, moreso than the player and the cash. I was just alluding to player-for-player trades, and discounted that one because on that scope, it was a nothing move, especially when compared to deals with future HOFs and Cy Young award winners.

  • joeyd1966

    Sandy by a turd.

  • chago

    Pitchers yes Harvey I love , Niese a solid lefty , Gee another solid pitcher and we have DeGrom , Matz on the way . Oh and let’s not forget Montero . Ok let’s talk about the pitchers Richie bought in now cause those are all Omar’s boys . And before anyone tells me Montero is Richie’s HE IS NOT that deal was done before Omar got fired Richie just had to give the OK on it but the scouting and network used to uncover and talk him into being a future Met was all Omar.

    So what have we got Wheeler and Syndergaard and Colon two very nice prospects and an overweight middle aged wunderkind when added to Omar’s boys we have the makings of a good staff.

    Just kidding well only somewhat Omar gets no credit for our young staff even though the majority of it is made up of guys he drafted and that sucks . But Richie has added quality and quantity to that stable throughout the organization to the point we are deep at most every level .

    So yes I agree with you but don’t forget that Omar had a big hand in our young stable of pitchers also

  • Peter

    Billy beane inherited Hudson, Zito, and Mulder, Giambi, and Miguel Tejeda. That is the end of this whole conversation!!!!

  • jason bay

    Your right Task,

    Horrible thought though and that list is pretty ghastly. To the ever gullible and naive Jr. Wilpon it probably looks enticing though.

    How can an absolute jewel of a franchise be entrusted to such a complete moron? He knows not a thing about baseball and yet he’ll be putting the pieces of the puzzle together.

    Alderson is smart enough to know where the bodies are buried though and that might be our saving grace.

  • Charley’s Twin

    Ha I’m going to change it

  • jason bay

    Alderson has done his best to keep and protect the prospects he’s inherited.

    Fern, Pena, Marte and Elvin Ramirez are about the only prospects that have been picked up by other teams.

  • Gland1

    I’ve still been going over there just to screw around with the people who are left, but I think I have to officially give up now. I just had someone tell me that the Wilpon’s financial situation was fine and that Sandy was choosing not to spend money. I just can’t….

  • Mike

    Omar was terrible at handling his prospects. Pelfrey, Fmart, Milledge, Mejia, Ike all were rushed up to the bigs and it stifled their growth. If he was still GM Harvey would have skipped two levels, came up in 11′ and would prob have a 5 career era.

  • Jack

    I really hope the Mets can get back their credibility. I so desperately want good things for this franchise. I just want this team to gain respect by being a competitive and winning team and to be a classy organization top to bottom. Please God make that happen. I love my Metsies.

  • jason bay

    Alderson wasn’t going to be able to effect a full scale rebuild because this job has been two pronged.

    1) Maintain as much of attendance as possible

    2) Rebuild the team.

    If the owners had the money, balls and guts to weather the storm that’s the approach he would have recommended.but under the circumstances that wasn’t possible.

  • joeyd1966

    Yes he did and he inherited them from our current GM, except for Zito but also inherited a solid catcher in Ramon Hernandez. People don’t look at that they just look at the losing seasons as if that tells the entfire story of a GM’s tenure.

    On the other hand GM’s like Ruben Amaro and Brian Cashman inherit WS winner’s and are judged by their won lost record that they had little to do with instead of crediting Pat Gillick and Bob Watson.

  • jason bay

    It was the exact flipside of the Delgado deal.

    In the Wagner situation we were the ones looking to save money and the Red Sox were willing to take it on in exchange for the picks and whatever Wagner might provide down the stretch.

    The only difference was with Delgado we would get an immediate impact while the Sox would have to wait and hope to get one but that risk was mitigated by the dollar commitment difference.

  • Anthony Delgado *17 WS Champs*

    Once we’re back on our feet we cannot trade top prospects like we did before for mlb proven players. If we have a good farm system and homegrown players in the Mlb we will always be competative.

  • jason bay

    Clearly it was the Wilpon’s.

    They wanted to save the salary and buyout and they wanted to make sure no one signed Wagner before the deadline to offer arbitration so they didn’t get stuck paying for signing bonuses.

    Then they did the same thing the next year with Barajas.

  • $14435385

    There’s a difference between an awful trade and a trade that doesn’t work out. Trading Pagan for a guy who had averaged 70 innings and a 2.60 in the previous four years, plus a fourth OF in Torres (at the time) was a fair deal. As it turned out Ramirez was awful with the Mets…but that doesn’t make it a bad trade.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Now I know I am getting up there in years: I can remember Bruce Willis with hair.

  • Taskmaster4450

    That could be true but, again, you always have to question was it Omar or was he pushed into that? The Wilpons showed they never thought about the future only the right now. So when there was a “name” prospect or someone who could excite the fan base, they wanted him up ASAP.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Actually the Phils success starts with Ed Wade back the late 90s. He drafted Burrell, Myers, Utley, Howard, Hamels, and also named Manual manager.

  • Taskmaster4450

    What I find amazing is that those who complain about Reyes going overlook the fact that he was the top FA the Marlins signed in 2011 and the centerpiece of a huge trade to the Blue Jays in 2012 and, yet, both teams finished last. And we are suppose to believe the Mets were going to be contenders with Jose.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Hey JB. Isnt is amazing how much weaker each FA class gets with each passing year. We thought this year was bad but looking at the list for next year, absolutely pathetic. And that is taking into account players such as Hanley who most likely will see an extension before he reaches FA.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Marte was traded.

  • jason bay

    Yes I know Marte was traded.

    Those are the only prospects playing in other Organizations as far as I am aware.is what I was conveying.

  • Andrew Herbst

    The jury is still on Sandy. To his credit he has acquired Wheeler, Thor, and TDA. Those look to be like great trades. As for Omar, he did well with some free agent signings, but a lot of his draft picks did not work out.

  • jason bay

    Wade also drafted Madson, Byrd, Gavin Floyd, Bourn, Kendrick, Happ and worley, plucked Victorino out of the rule 5 and didn’t trade inheritied prospects Carlos Ruiz and Jimmy Rollins.

  • Tom

    That just tells me Omar was weak willed, regardless if he was forced into it or he did it on his own accord, they’re both bad.

  • Tom

    Yeah, I actually thank them for changing their comment system, was enough to finally drive me away. I don’t know why I was checking that site everyday, I fear I’m a masochist. Although I still check the minorleagueblog.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Pelfrey, Fmart, Milledge, Mejia, Ike all were rushed up to the bigs and it stifled their growth.- If he was still GM Harvey would have skipped two levels, came up in 11′ and would prob have a 5 career era.-Mike

    FYI Harvey only played “1 season and a half” in the minors. And Chris Sale whom was selected after Matt Harvey in the 2010 draft actually skipped the entire minor league process and went straight to the big leagues in his 1st season. Mike Leake as well.

    Here is a list of prospects who were rushed to the majors:

    Chris Sale(Pitched only 10.1 innings his entire minor league career)
    Mike Leake(Not 1 inning in the minors went straight to the pro’s)
    Jose Fernandez
    Michael Wacha
    Mike Trout
    Bryce Harper
    Manny Machado
    Yasiel Puig

    Were their growth stifled???

    Every GM has their own beliefs in regards to promotions…Some say Minaya was too aggressive similar to the way the WhiteSox push players today….Some say Alderson takes way too long

    Players are all different where Minaya rushed guys like Ike, Flores, Mejia whom excelled at each level and deserved the promotion based on results. He didnt rush guys like Lagares and Familia whom needed to work on stuff.

    And F-Marts failures had nothing to do with Minaya rushing him…The kid failed because he was HURT EVERY YEAR! Just look at F-Marts minor league stats he excelled at each level when he manage to play.

    Know your facts before spewing baseless rhetoric.

    What youre doing was generalizing based on a few players

  • jason bay

    A big part of rushing prospects was the large number of guaranteed contracts on the off season roster.

    When you then want to protect your best prospects they have to serve as AAA depth whether their ready or not.

    That’s one of the reasons you get a Carlos Gomez or Lastings Milledge at 21 or a Fern at 20 as opposed to a Juan Lagares at 24.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    I see this piece lured the Omar Minaya bashers out from underneath their rock…many(1 in particular)whom havent even commented regularly here in a while.

    LoL…Regardless of how good or bad you think Omar is or was as a GM.

    I as a Mets fan had more HOPE & was FAR HAPPIER(in regards to the Mets) when he was in charge than I am now.

  • jason bay

    Pelfrey had no business being in the Majors in his first professional season. Carlos Gomez, Lastings Milledge,and Fern were rushed up as well. Tejada, Mejia, Niese, Thole……

    Sale, Fernandez, Wacha, Harper, Machado, Puig all experienced success up here and who can complain about Trout?

  • metFAN660

    True. But so what? We would have been able to enjoy watching him play, but he hasn’t lived up to his contract. The Mets wouldn’t have been any better, and they wouldn’t have Plawecki, and they’d be overpaying Jose for another four years as his skills continue to decline. Hated to see him go, but it was the right move not to bid him up.

  • Joey D.

    Hi Joe D.,

    Absolutely agree, there is no way one can or even should try to compare the two. But as those who know me already can anticipate, my rationale is that both came aboard with not only the tasks being different but with the job descriptions being so completely different and far apart as well.

    Omar, the baseball-oriented individual, was hired when the organization was on solid fiscal ground and was to focus on the team more than the economics. Sandy, the business executive, came in with the organization treading on bankruptcy, and was to focus on the economic plight than the team.

    You put it best when stating:

    “…all hell broke loose when the images of Bernie Madoff being led away in handcuffs were splattered on front pages everywhere. Now we had a win-now team that had no money and no way out. What happened next was inevitable.”

    Yes we had a “win-now” team. Yes, we also had no money. Agree or disagree with the way he put together the ball club, a man like Omar was out.

    “Enter Sandy Alderson who was brought here to help free up some money by trading away his best assets, and lets give him credit for getting top value for what we traded. I’m not so sure any other GM could have gotten more. But Sandy was here to slash payroll, and slash he did.”

    Yes, he got “top value for what he traded” and he and his baseball people deserve all the credit in the world for doing so. But the reason they did was, as you said, “to help free up some money by trading away his best assets” -and that included doing so in the middle of a wildcard race. Those decisions were indeed inevitable but not due to baseball but because Sterling Mets had no money, debts to pay and no other way of meeting them.

    What we have seen is not rebuilding as it is as I have noted before – fiscal regrouping. If it was “rebuilding”, the cuts we have seen would have been regulated to just the roster payroll. Instead, they have affected the entire operating budget in every area not related to baseball just as severely. All the outside revenue (television rights, advertising, merchandising, etc.) Sandy has advised us is all accounted for so there is no help in other areas of net revenue. His spending now is only with money that has come off the roster and with a goal to keep payroll at a certain level. That is financial planning, not baseball planning.

    Here is a question. Why wasn’t Sandy Alderson considered a candidate for the GM job back in the Fall of 2004? He was still with MLB, not having been hired as San Diego’s CEO until April of 2005. He had the impeccable reputation of being the general manager who built the Oakland clubs. Why would he not have been a good pick then with his skills and be a good pick now? He had not been pursued as a general manager for seven years since leaving Oakland (a newspaper article was once posted that implied otherwise, however, the author appeared more guilty of creative prose for there was no mention of any specific team nor did the writer back up his claim with specific references, footnotes or quotes from any team officials or Sandy – also, if he was sought out by other clubs, in today’s internet world this type of information would not be so unknown). It’s because his executive business and legal skills are needed.

    So again, it is completely unfair to compare Sandy to Omar not because of the circumstances of the situation when they took over but because those circumstances dictated the altogether different job description of the general manager when each was each needed. Unlike 2004, Sterling Mets now needs a business person to get them through these bleak economic times more than they do a roster of good players to get them back into October play.

  • jason bay

    Of course you were.

    Your a true believer in the Wilpon Method.

  • Hotstreak

    Who did Minaya get rid of? Lastings Milledge after he proved to be Meh at best.

    Ok you going to say Health Bell. However what GM did not make a similar mistake. That’s it.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    this theory of course applies to David Wright as well…

  • Joey D.

    Hi Task,

    You’re not getting older. That was always a hair piece Bruce Willis wore – just like Sean Connery even before he played 007 or Bobby Darin when he was singing “Splish Splash”

  • Mike

    Wow congratulations! You won the argument actually no you didn’t, 99.9% of players aren’t phenoms like Fernandez and Harper and college pitchers like Strausberg And Wacha are much more advanced due to all of their innings thrown in college. Leake was one of those guys too but he and Sale are such rare cases in terms of 0-11 innings in the minors that they’re not even worth mentioning, so don’t just cherry pick a few cases to prove your point. For the ten guys you listed I can counter with dozens upon dozens of guys over the years (college position players, high school prep players and international signees) who need a few years at least to develop. Maybe Harvey would have excelled if He was called up in his first professional year, but I seriously doubt it. And maybe, just maybe Pelffrey and Mejia would have been better served if they weren’t rushed up into the majors, which they clearly were judging by their struggles.

  • Joey D.

    Jason,

    Could you please advise me of the principles behind that (not specific players but the general reasons). What forces them to be rushed to triple-A and where is the tie-in with guaranteed contracts which would only take up spots on the off-season roster.

    I am sincerely in the dark about this.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Tejada: was excellent his 1st 2 seasons…Alderson and company RAVED about him being poised and EXTREMELY MATURE for his age. They glet Reyes walk without replacing him with a free agent because THEY FELT Tejada was ready and could replace Reyes.if you want to blame anyone for REGRESSION you blame the people in charge during that time he started to regress(2013), ALDERSON…3YEARS AFTER MINAYA WAS FIRED!

    Niese: Niese pitched 4 1/2 seasons in the minors FAR from rushed

    Milledge:: DESTROYED every level in the minors and hit well in Triple A. he played 3 1/2 SEASONS in the minors…FAR from rushed

    Mejia: Always DOMINATED in the minors at every level…the only time he struggled was when he was moved to the pen….The biggest mistake made with Mejia was placing him in the pen in the majors and not giving him any playing time.

    Thole: 4 1/2 seasons in the minors his last 2 years he hit above .300…he destroyed Double A(.328AVG, .395OBP, .422SLG .816OPS) and he was solid behind the bag.

    After being promoted Thole was a solid hitter and adequate behind the plate.After Alderson took over he regressed when they attempted to change his approach and have him pull the ball more. How soon you forget they tried to CHANGE the way Thole hit and he was a disaster ever since similar to LUCAS DUDA who was a STUD that 1st year…one offseason under Hudgens tweaking and he was a shell of himself the sad sack Duda we know today as Johnny WALKer

    Try dealing with facts next time Jason Bay…You just proved your IGNORANCE

  • Joey D.

    Hi XtreemIcon,

    Been a while, how have things been.

    “The bigger test for a GM is the ability to identify what the best package is when you HAVE to sell, which Sandy passes with flying colors.”

    While that is true, the even bigger test is putting together the entire package as a team, not just the ability to get some of the pieces. So far, what Sandy has been able to identify is what level he wants the payroll to be, which is not really his fault, agreed, but at the same time, something we must consider when asking what his primary focus is.

  • jason bay

    No, your destorting the facts Leroy.

    Tejada was TERRIBLE when he first came up here in 2010.

    Niese had a SEVEN PLUS ERA.

    Thole wasn’t even close to being ready to catch a Major League Staff. (Left that part out huh?)

    Pelfrey was HORRIBLE. Parnell nowhere close to ready, Mejia completely mishandled, Fern as unprepared as any prospect I have seen.

    Try getting your facts straight, your blinded by your biases

  • jason bay

    Joey,

    Say you have 20 guaranteed contracts on the 40, ten more guys you want on there, five more for the bench and now you have a choice…..

    The last five spots can go to your credible AAA backups and you can risk losing the Puello’s, lagares’, flores’, ect OR you can add them and have them serve as AAA (or AA) depth ready or not.

    That’s how guys get rushed. Good case in point are Tejada and Mejia in 2010.

  • Joey D.

    Jason,

    That is why I often ask how one could think a no-nonsense person as stern as Sandy, who has been an executive for over 30 years including that of avice president with MLB, the CEO in San Diego, one who has gone eyeball to eyeball with the toughest player agents in the business and not to mention being a lawyer, Harvard Law graduate and a marine combat veteran of Vietnam would agree to put himself in the position to take orders from a graduate of Roslyn High School and one whom from what I’ve read is indeed the “moron” you describe him as.

    I just don’t think one like Sandy would stand for it – or needs it.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    I think you took this as some sort of competition rather than what it truly was.

    Me countering your ignorant comment with FACTS!

    You mightve also missed the part where I stated

    – Players are all different.
    -What youre doing was generalizing based on a few players

    So no I didnt cherry pick….YOU DID,

    All I did was just simply counter your argument with players that have the same minor league history[or lack thereof] as the ones you mentioned.

    And I also showed that there isnt any set standard timetable for producing successful prospects and all of them move at their own pace. You deal with them on a case by case basis.

    I even gave examples of guys who were moved along slowly or gradually by the Minaya regime like Lagares.

    You will choose to believe otherwise simply because you dislike Omar Minaya for whatever reason. Nothing wrong with that just use facts when youre mounting an argument against him

  • DKNOKOZ

    I think this post is dead-on except one point. I don’t believe that Alderson cares about winning on his watch. Alderson has nothing left to prove as a GM, he moved on from that role long ago. He was an MLB executive – the CEO of the Padres and then the Executive Director of MLB Ops. He has no appetite for the grunt work of a hungry GM and that’s why he hired guys like Depodesta and Ricciardi to do it for him. He was a GM THIRTY years ago with the A’s for goodness sake – why would he go backward? For the challenge? C’mon. Exec with MLB to GM of the Mets is a professional regression for a man of his talents, a demotion.

    I’ll probably get killed for this, but I genuinely believe his main, primary objective is not to win but rather to straighten out the finances of this team. Not for the good of the Wilpons or the team, but for the good of MLB. He’s a good soldier (literally an ex-marine) and I think he considers it his duty to act in the best interests of MLB – not the Mets and definitely not Mets fans. I don’t think he believes that he, or the organization, owes the fans a duty. And bc of Fred’s relationship with Selig, Fred ceded control to Sandy to allow him to accomplish the objective that Selig determined was necessary. Basically, I don’t think the Wilpons are the one’s keeping the payroll low – I think it is Alderson keeping the Wilpons from spending. Fred’s an old man and he wants to win before he croaks.

    Sandy is just a soldier executing a mission and I don’t think that mission is “make the Mets a WC contender”. Yes, there are collateral benefits to winning, but fielding a competitive and winning team is not a necessary element to getting the team on an even keel, and that is his true goal. His plan is to make a profit on the margins through attrition and leave when the team is straightened out. Is it necessary to get even before we can go forward? Probably. Will we seriously compete before Sandy leaves? Probably not. This team won’t seriously compete (unless basically everything that could go right does go right) until they get even financially and by then Sandy will be long gone. Based on his extensive experience, Alderson has to know this and that is why I reach the conclusion that he doesn’t care about winning.

    And other than the great reasons articulated by Joe D above, I also think that Omar and Sandy can’t be compared because Omar, for all his bungling, really genuinely viewed his job as a fielding a winner every season. Alderson IMO has a totally different objective.

  • jason bay

    The discussion was not about which prospects Minaya got rid of, it was about which one’s we have lost that he would likely have kept.

    My response was to mention that Alderson has not lost many guys he’s inherited and to take it one step further he has flat out protected inheritied prospects on the 40 even though that inhibited him from adding anyone and of course he hasn’t traded any of them (either than Marte) and that is a humongous deviation from our last three GM’s.

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    I’ve been trying as well under my new screen name, but (1) I lack your nuance, and (2) it appears Vazzano is on constant lookout for any comment that says anything about his little buddy.

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    We have Alex68 here for that.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Tejada was TERRIBLE when he first came up here in 2010

    – So was Mike Trout
    – So was Travis d’Arnaud
    – So was Zack Wheeler
    – So was Chase Utley
    – So was Julio Teheran
    – So was Chris Davis
    – So was Josh Donaldson
    – So was Carlos Gomez
    – So was Carlos Gonzalez
    – So was Jayson Werth
    – So was Yadier Molina
    – So was Carlos Ruiz

    Shall I go on???

    SMDH…You make this soooooooo easy

    I’ll give you time to research the names I posted so you can start a new ridiculous argument 😉 or when all else fail pull the parachute cord and call me a Wilpon supporter(which is false, I hate them)

    Maybe its your biases that have YOU blinded by the light

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    And youre a clown

  • jason bay

    Having money to spend is something Minaya didn’t have to worry about so of course he was able to focus on increasing the payroll while Alderson has been dealt an entirely different set of cards.

    I too believe his first priority is to put the team on a firm foothold financially but that is only taking away from the Major League team in the short term and if we had a farm…………

    He’s not spending #1 picks on 40 year old OFers, selling them for DH’s and cash, trading players exclusively for salary relief and drafting and signing internationally only the cheapest possible players.

    He’s increased spending in those areas so it’s not only about the money, it’s about building a long term contender but it takes time.

    Case in point Jimmy Rollins drafted in 1996. Twelve years later….

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    Why would you get killed? It’s a totally rational viewpoint. Oh……

    I myself doubt the “duty” part–that’s far in the rearview and he strikes me as a bit more opportunistic than that–but other than that, I totally agree.

  • Hotstreak

    “The discussion was not about which prospects Minaya got rid of”

    But JB: I just expanded the discussion as a comparison between the two regimes which by the way you have a penchant for doing.

  • Mike

    Please, you picked some of the best players in baseball and compared them to FMart and Mejia? Trout was the number one prospect in baseball! Harper was what? # 2? The guys on your list are the absolute elite except for Leake who isnt great by any means. I’m sorry but Fmart Mejjia and Gomez were never as highly touted as those Guys on your list. That’s why when they were yes say it with me, rushed up to the show, they struggled mightily. It’s apples and oranges. It’s like arguing against the idea that players begin to breakdown at 35 by saying “waiit Barry bonds played till he was 43 and so did Pete rose!” I’m sorry that you’re an Omar fan and he deservedly got booted out of town for mis handling the farm system and overpaying a bunch if old, under achieving free agents, but don’t try to school me on my favorite sport.

  • jason bay

    Tejada was overmatched.in 2010. Not just not ready but PHYSICALLY OVERMATCHED.

    He was here because of all the the GMJ’s, Jacobs;, Catolonotto’s, Hessman’s, Cora’s, Igaraschi’s, Takahachi’s, Dessens’, Bay’s, Castillo’s and Perez’ Misches, ect.clogging up the roster.

    Leave him off the 40 to give him time to develop and he would have been taken in the rule 5 or rush him up and hope that he’s useful before his time was the choice.

    Tejada was seriously rushed in 2010.

  • Mike

    Lucas duda was not a stud in his first year he was in fact awful, sent down and then yes after July 31 he was called up and did pretty good in August and sept, when the rosters expand and you’re facing slot of sub par pitching. Since then it’s been a train wreck. Tejada has been regressing ever since his first came up and has a career 312. Slugging percentage, amongst the worst in mlb. The words “excellent” and “stud” shouldn’t be used to describe these fringe players because that’s all they are, fringe players like 90% of Omar’s guys.

  • metFAN660

    If he was an overdraft at the time; he’s a really nice chip to be holding right now, right? And again, this is about rebuilding an organization on all levels, so the fact that Reyes may be a better player than Tejada doesn’t mean the team would have been any more successful, in fact, I really doubt Jose would have helped the Mets win 5 more games in either of the last two years. And big whoop if he did. It’s really not necessary for you to make excuses about his injury. It’s part of the game, and It was always a bs knock on him anyway. But legs guys slow down after 30. It’s part of life. He wanted the money. He got it. Good for him, but it wound up being good for the Mets, too.

  • jason bay

    OK Hotstreak, fair enough.

    Still Matt Lindstrom would have been huge in 2007 and 2008. Same with Heath Bell. Jason Vargas would have been huge in 2010-2013, same with Joe Smith. Carlos Gomez, Darren O’Day,,,

  • The argument I will never get is how in one breath some feel Alderson is not here to do nothing else but get the Wilpon financial house in order and in the next breath they blame Alderson for the team not winning. If the argument I see often made is that Alderson is here only to create financial stability then look only at the Wilpons for why this is so.

    It’s clear that Minaya was trying to win but despite his best efforts and the financial means early on along with a young cost controlled Wright & Reyes was unable to win a W.S.

    Now I don’t view the current Mets situation that Alderson is under as falling under any one umbrella as some do. I view it as a more complex situation revolving around not only navigating the Mets during the Madoff clawback situation and the uncertainty of how it would end up but also trying to rebuild the organization from literally the bottom up while trying to remain as competitive as possible trying to keep some interest to come out and fill seats while placing themselves in the best position as possible pending the results of the clawback.

    The Mets financial house is still unclear how much of it is settled but I know this. The Mets have put together one of the best looking amount of potential quality prospects I have seen in quite some time and they have done it by adding players via trades and also developing already existing prospects. Say what you will but the team for all the problems it has, the potential from within at the upper levels has not been this promising in quite some time and with a bit of luck and good health I can’t wait to see what the results might be.

  • vigouge

    and they wanted to make sure no one signed Wagner before the deadline to
    offer arbitration so they didn’t get stuck paying for signing bonuses.

    Ok this is getting ridiculous this is just completely made up. I have no doubt that they traded him to save money, but trying to avoid draft pick compensation has nothing to do with it.

  • vigouge

    You’re logic on Barajas is lacking. You can’t assume that had the Mets kept him he would have player well enough to qualify for type b status, as it was he barely did with a monster few months in LA, with the Mets he was horrid. Even if somehow manged to get type B status with the Mets they still wouldn’t have gotten compensation. Had he been offered arbitration there would have been no way in heII that he would have passed on it. He made that mistake the year before by passing on arbitration from the Blue Jays.

  • jason bay

    Really?

    You believe the Wilpon’s wanted to shell out 3 M in signing bonuses with all the players they failed to offer arbitration to before Madoff hit?

    Fonzie, Piazza, Leiter, Floyd, Looper, Oliver but they would have offered Wagner arb? I don’t think so.

    They were concerned someone would sign him before the arb deadline and thereby force the draft picks on us as the Braves did when they signed Glavine and the Indians when they signed Roberto Hernandez,

    The Mets then did the same thing the following year with Barajas with five weeks left in the season.

    They’ve made a science of creatively dumping or avoiding first and supplemental round draft picks.in order to avoid having to pay the signing bonuses.

  • jason bay

    He wasn’t with the dodgers for “months.” He was there for 5 weeks. He was traded when he was well on pace to be a type B and there is no way in hell he accepts arbitration because he was only making 500 K with the Mets for 2010.

    Even if he did accept, we needed a catcher so where was the harm in trying for the draft pick?

    Facts are people can always come up with some kind of reason why a player is a risk to accept but when you look at the names of guys who declined through the years you realize it’s practically a sure shot. Tell him if he accepts he’ll be backing up Thole, warming up relievers and playing RF twice a week and he’ll find another team fast.

  • Hotstreak

    Reyes (Box of chocolates et. al) and Wright should have been traded and got us prospects where we would would be contending and not pretending now.

    You have to cut payroll you make lemonade out of lemon; How? in the Picard clawback suit NOT have a fire sale but trade for a boatload of prospects and have a 50 M payroll during the Madoff financial mess.

    I always said it was mainly the Wilpons fault and Selig for letting him remain owner when Tom Hicks of Texas for the same over leveraging was let to blow in the wind.

    SA made fabulous trades but they are full of promissory notes.Again not may GM’s could of pulled off those trades.

    With me you not dealing with the a hard CORE member here. I am fair and balanced and give credit when due such as SA signing Montero. But this is a results business.

    At his initial press conference SA said a GM’s job was two fold parent team and farm. I was impressed and had hope. Yes most of us agreed that Minaya’s time ran its course because the clock ran out. The clock is ticking with SA and again this is a results business.

    First you tear apart the team (Wright still here) Reyes got less than should have

    Then you rebuild with prospects from Reyes and Wright

    Then you contend for the playoffs

    Then you are in the WS and hopefully win it all.

    Again we neither rebuilt nor contend BUT we have promissory notes in great prospects SA got via trades.

    SA can redeem himself if those prospects deliver and it takes time for young prospects but the clock is running out just as it did for Minaya..

  • DrDooby

    Just like pretty much every athlete, of course, Alderson & his assistants care about winning in a very big way. You do not get to the majora leagues, stay there or have a high profile job in the majors if you don’t care about winning. The statement he doesn’t care is ridiculous.

    Plus, the Wilpon family and Sterling Equities being on solid financial footing AND the Mets fielding a perennial contender certainly in NO WAY contradicts itself. In fact, this ownership group can make a ton of money if & when this team is winning again.

    That said, Alderson was brought here as both GM and “risk manager” / “chief restructuring” officer. The restructuring of a business in financial disstress generally involves cutting costs initially while trying to come up with a new business model that will make the endeavour profitable and sustainable over the long haul. In MLB, that is best achieved by sporting a winning roster, constantly fed by a strong & productive farm system. THAT creates big revenue, especially if you have your own TV network to make big side profits.

  • Joey D.

    Jason,

    I know a player not on the 40 man roster with four or five years (depending upon his age at signing) in the minors can then be taken in the Rule V draft and understand your point about a bad club having too many player commitments (for example, not releasing Perez and Castillo in 2010 because they still had one more year to go in their contracts not allowing the Mets to have placed two of it’s prospects on it instead).

    But then, isn’t that more a problem with not having enough spots to protect all the players one wants and not one of rushing them up ahead of schedule?

  • jason bay

    *

  • DrDooby

    It’s indeed unfair to blame some of the Mets struggles on Minaya when the financial circumstances changed drastically surrounding him. You can list an entire team of expensive players that flopped that were signed by Brian Cashman or Ned Colletti in their respective tenures with the Yankees and Dodgers. However, it doesn’t matter if you waste a ton of money on Carl Pavano, Key Igawa, Jared Wright, Jason Schmidt, Juan Pierre and others if you are able to make up for your mistakes by buying the next group of players in hopes for a better return. Which will often be the case. Minaya came here with a roster centered around Wright & Reyes & a rather open checkbook, plus most veterans such as Piazza, Cameron, Floyd, Glavine or Looper only under contract for 1 or 2 more years. An ideal situation to spend – which Omar did very aggressively in his first two years on the job, essentially “buying” the team a new core group of players beyond Wright & Reyes in Beltran, Pedro, Delgado and Wagner, plus adding several supporting pieces too. The problems started in 2007 when the lack of depth due to a terribly shallow farm system started being exposed and the Mets playing good soldier to MLB and being very conservative in the draft while constantly losing picks hurt.

    Omar then started chasing needs to fill the most gapping holes on the major league roster – “ace SP” for 2008 (Santana),bullpen for 2009 (KRod & Putz) and slugger for 2010 (Bay) while wasting lots of money on inefficient complementary talent, Castillo & Schoeneweis being notable moves that looked terrible the moment they happened, unlike the big contracts that went sour. Unlike Cashman or Colletti, Minaya wasn’t able to buy out mistakes like Castillo, Ollie P. or Bay anymore but had to stick through them. Meanwhile, the lack of a solid farm system finally became exposed when there was no money left to patch the major league holes quickly. Part of it is on Omar for risk averse drafting. And he also underestimated the time it’d take for the IFA he signed to progress to the majors. And rushing prospects certainly didn’t help anyone but may have sabotaged some careera.

  • jason bay

    Joey,

    They get pressed into service because they have to serve double duty.

    ie be added to the 40 as prospects AND serve as AAA depth unlike say Lagares, Flores and Puello (added in 2011-2012) and not counted on till a couple years later.

  • jason bay

    All that will be left is pure gruel Task.

    Upgrades have to come from in house or trades.

  • Fonzie

    As always MNJ spot on post. I’ve said it many times before and I’ll say it again. How diehard Met fans don’t get what you just posted as well as myself and countless others reiterating the same points over and over is mind numbingly perplexing.

  • Hotstreak

    Hey down voters keep on cheering our ownership. Since SA is the GM he has to bear responsibility too even if Wilpons handcuffed him.

    http://imagecache5d.art.com/Crop/cropwm.jpg?img=-52-5271-KOPZG00Z&x=0&y=0&w=1000&h=1000&size=2&maxw=1472&maxh=746&q=100

  • Fonzie

    You talk about facts? LMAO… When do you use facts to bash Alderson. Boy how your panties get knotted up when its Omar getting bashed. LMAO. You are such a closet Omar apologist it’s so hypocritical for you to call anyone a Sandy lover. The word facts and Leroy brown should never be used in the same sentence.

  • Fonzie

    Well done Mike schooling the Omar apologists. Especially this bad Leroy brown character. He’s a closet Omar lover.

  • DrDooby

    Very much disagree that we´d be contending now had Reyes & Wright been traded in 2011 or 2012.

    Beltran & Dickey were traded in 2011 and 2012. And while the return was very good in terms of market expectancy, Wheeler is barely 100 IP into his MLB career, d´Arnaud barely has 100 AB and Syndergaard has a dozen starts in Double A Ball. Wheeler & d´Arnaud will hopefully establish themselves in 2014 and Syndergaard in 2015. But they certainly wouldn´t be counted on as the core pieces to 2014 contention. Meanwhile, the Mets wouldn´t have Wright, arguably the best 3bman in Baseball right now, now that Cabrera is back at 1b where he belongs.

    It certainly was a mistake to just let Reyes go and neither extend him nor trade him for a bigger haul than draft pick lottery tickets. That´s true. But trading Reyes & Wright would have led to fewer wins in 2011, 2012 and 2013 (which doesn´t really matter of course) but also wouldn´t have improved the outlook for 2014 and 2015 either in all likelihood. Fact is, David Wright will probably be the best hitter on this team for the next 3+ years at the very least as it is. And the best prospects in the system who might change that played in Low A Ball or lower in 2013 and are a couple of years away at the very least. So, trading Wright, say to the Detroit Tigers for 3b/OF Nick Castellanos and a couple of prospects or to the LA Dodgers for OF Joc Pederson and a couple of prospects wouldn´t have changed anything to the better for 2014, even in a best case scenario.

    The problem remains that the Mets are still operating as a small market to mid market team at best right now and can´t support their growing young talent base with a sufficient veteran supporting cast yet. Thus, it mainly has to happen from within.

  • DrDooby

    Alderson certainly is responsible. The 2014 Mets team will be “HIS” team with no contracts on the books from the previous regime. And while his budget remains limited and the rebuilding obviously hasn´t been completed yet, it´s certainly better to be able to sport a 90 million $ payroll than what essentially was a 50 million over the past couple of years, once you leave out the “dead weight” of the Santana & Bay contracts which kept Alderson from being able to spend on anything other than scrap heap talent to help out shortterm.

    So, basically Alderson & Co. can finally be fully judged. Of course, with circumstances and financial restrictions in mind. But finally, this is HIS team with HIS payroll and not a team where half the payroll was allotted to toxic waste inherited.

    And if the Mets merely win 75 games in 2014, Alderson will have to be held accountable. Because in that case, it appears likely that his additions such as the 3 veteran free agents from this winter or trade acquisitions such as Wheeler, d´Arnaud or Black who will all be expected to be on the OD roster and perform in key spots won´t have produced enough.

    Now, obviously you can´t expect a WS champ in the middle of a rebuilding with a 90 million $ payroll, bottom 10 in the majors. But you can rightfully expect significant progress with payroll restrictions a lot less than over the past couple of years. A .500 season or better would qualify as such progress. Somewhere between 80 and 85 wins. That can be built on going forward.

  • Nolrog

    I am more optimistic about the future now than I was under the last couple years under Omar. He rarely, made deadline deals to improve the team, his farm system (as a whole) stunk and he never held anyone accountable for choking away a 7 game lead with 17 games to play. Not to mention unleashing Tony Bernazard on the minors and his embarrassing firing of Willie Randolph in the middle of the night on a west coast road trip. Oh, and I even forgot to mention the horrible signings of Ollie Perez (where he bid himself up against no one else) and Jason Bay, just to name a couple.

    I have my issues with Alderson too. He has been telling us for years there are on financial constraints, when we all know that’s not true. He says stupid things like, I think Lucas Duda can play the outfield. But the pitching depth he has built in the farm makes me optimistic for the future, as long as Jeff doesn’t screw it up.

  • Martin

    There is no evidence to support this idea that rushing players to the minors hurts them. It’s just made up nonsense.

  • DKNOKOZ

    Yeah I got to drinking and pondering. Does a MLB team owner have a duty or a responsibility to fans to put out the best team possible every year and make their best efforts to win? After all, the teams represent the cities that they play in and are allowed to profit off of that representation. Or do the owners only owe it to themselves to maximize profits, for themselves, as much as possible? I mean if they were selling T-Shirts, the answer would be simple – they don’t owe anybody anything, take-it-or-leave-it. But something about professional sports, it’s representative quality and the fact that most teams eat up a ton of public resources (public safety, subsidies, etc.) seems to add something to the equation for me. Not saying they should operate at a loss, but the singular goal of lining of their own pockets seems off in this arena.

  • Biggle Boy

    Great analysis in your article, Joe D.

  • Steve M

    I can name you several 3B that are better than David Wright, Evan Longoria for one.

  • Steve M

    Just about every team has some “bad contracts”, but other teams find ways to deal with that. The 2010 S.F. Giants won the World Series even though they also had a few bad contracts on their hands (SP Barry Zito & CF Aaron Rowand). How about the N.Y. Yankees with the Kei Igawa contract over the past several years?

  • DrDooby

    Good luck backing that statement up with any sort of meaningful statistic that´s not team related but measures the production of an individual player.

    The only two 3bmen who have been of similar value to Wright over the past couple of years beyond 1bman mashing superstar Miguel Cabrera have been Adrian Beltre of the Texas Rangers – who has generally played with a much better supporting cast in a rather hitter friendly ballpark – and indeed Evan Longoria who has been on much better teams at the very least. But they have merely been similar but certainly not better. And nobody else comes close to these three right now.
    Whether you go for offense / defense / OPS / WAR / whatever.

  • Hotstreak

    Dr Dooby we essentially agree that the clock is ticking for SA. A 500 record winning meaningless games in Sept after being 12 under at ASB will not cut it. The Mets have to be in the hunt all season for the 2nd w/c or better.

    If Wright and Grandy do not earn their salaries and CY is a complete bust or Colon is a complete bust including injuries (remember Alou knock on Omar) SA is then accountable. Of course if Mets make the playoffs SA is redeemed and SA supporters (not derogatory) are proved correct in the direction we are going.

  • Mike

    Of course there’s evidence it’s evident in the player’s performance if a player skips two levels, struggles then goes back to the minors and plays well when promoted at a later time it probably meant he wasn’t ready in the first place. Mejia is a great example he was rushed up in 10′ struggled, went back to minors got hurt and it set him back three yrs.

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    Agree entirely, except for, “The argument I will never get is how in one breath some feel Alderson is not here to do nothing else but get the Wilpon financial house in order and in the next breath they blame Alderson for the team not winning.”

    Sincere question (not being douchey): Is it possible that these are two distinct populations that you’re merging into one? Who specifically are these people you’re referencing? Would it be better to tackle their arguments with them individually?

    It seems like an unintentional strawman. No offense meant, sir.

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    Much of it depends on total wealth, I imagine.

    Super-wealthy owners (Steinbrenners) can do it for winning, for personal/civic pride, etc., because they have plenty of other revenue streams/piles of loot.

    The “poor” or leveraged owners (Wilpons) are probably running it like a family business, and relying on it as a key revenue source. Winning and pride would be secondary to profit.

    Not sure of Doubleday’s finances, but he definitely ran it like the former, not the latter.

  • DrDooby

    I agree it will be about both process and results in 2014. The Mets can´t be 15 games under .500 by May 31st and play another boring season. Again, the .500 season would be sort of the baseline of minimum expectations. And since Alderson has constantly talked about how the 2013 Mets already were a .500 team for the final 100 games, then expecting at least that – even without Harvey & Byrd – seems very reasonable.

    Again, I believe depth is an overlooked and very important factor that will give the Mets a much better chance to contend in 2014 than will be widely thought entering the season. It´s one thing replacing a competent SP with Chris Schwinden and Miguel Batista and another breaking in potential assets like Rafael Montero or Noah Syndergaard in such roles. Basically, it doesn´t seem far-fetched that the expected “Opening 5” of Colon, Wheeler, Niese, Gee and Mejia could all win 12 to 15 games in terms of either past success and / or upside. It´s been a while since that could be said about a front 5…

    Plus, instead of 1 or 2, the Mets are entering 2014 with 4 players deemed as valid candidates to start in the OF. We´re worrying about having one mediocre 1bman too many and finding no space for the major league ready bat of Wilmer Flores. Those are good problems to have. Now, the lack of SS quality & depth remains a problem. It could easily be fixed by signing Stephen Drew imho. But whether the money is there remains to be seen.

  • Hotstreak

    Great Post. I very much agree.

  • Martin

    How do you know the success isn’t because of being called up earlier and gettin needed experience?

  • DrDooby

    It´s much easier to absorb a bad contract with a 120 or 220 million $ payroll than with a 90 million $ payroll when 40+ million are sunk costs for non-productive talent, obviously. Especially if significant young talent isn´t there (yet).

    And having 3 young frontline SP like the Giants had in 2010 in Lincecum, Cain and Bumgarner making 90+ starts in the regular season, plus 6 out of 7 in a post-season series also helps a lot.

    That´s why hopes for Harvey – Wheeler – Syndergaard (and to a lesser degree also Niese – Mejia – Montero) are so high…

  • Joey D.

    Hi DKNOKOZ,

    “I’ll probably get killed for this, but I genuinely believe his main, primary objective is not to win but rather to straighten out the finances of this team.”

    Don’t know if this will make you feel any better but I’ve already died a thousand times saying the same exact thing you have. So at least you won’t be alone.

    Sandy’s background is law and finance, it’s his education and portfolio. It represents the work he did with Oakland, San Diego and with MLB. It takes decades of hard work and experience to gain the knowledge to be the one at the top who can then evaluate, guide or if nothing more, take a responsible role in contributing to the decision making process of the “brain trust” that shapes a baseball team in all phases of development as it does to rise to the top of one’s chosen profession in any other field.

    Many take this as a knock against Sandy Alderson when it is only an assessment. That is why I said it was completely unfair to compare Sandy to Omar “not because of the circumstances of the situation when they took over but because those circumstances dictated the altogether different job description of the general manager when each was each needed.”

  • WilponsStinkLessNow

    Cerrone is a shill.

  • Guest

    I re-read it. Yes while the criticism in a way is correct he did spin it where Minaya looks like a complete imbecile and every issue with the team is his fault.

    As someone that gets pleasure out of torturing Cerrone I would say separate his views on Minaya with the linking of your piece. If he didn’t find value in your piece he would have never of linked it. He is just not good with things like this and if he was he would have used more positive words to intro your Q&A. It was nothing personal.

  • Joey D.

    Hi DKNOKOZ,
    It all depends. All owners are in it for the money but some are in it only for the money while others are in it for the money and to be the owner of a winning sports franchise (i.e., Steinbrenner) and there are some who are in simply because they have the money to live out their dreams and will go broke doing so.

  • Brian D.

    And maybe, just maybe Pelffrey and Mejia would have been better served if they weren’t rushed up into the majors,

    Or maybe they wouldn’t have. You don’t know.

    Top prospects bust all the time, so you can’t say for sure that they busted for this specific reason.

  • Brian D.

    Great job BBLB! Top prospects who struggle early on is not unusual, even for players who are not rushed.

  • DrDooby

    Every GM signs crappy players every winter. Isringhausen, Hairston, Capuano, Byrdak, Cedeno, Byrd, Hawkins, Hefner and others all turned into very useful scrap heap signings. So, the track record is mixed – like it is for every GM.

    The problem is the combination of what essentially has been a 50 million $ payroll for a couple of years and a rather underwhelming production from the farm system between 2011 and 2013. A team with – essentially – a bottom 3 in Baseball payroll and not a lot of youngish impact talent isn´t going to be very successful. Look at the Astros & Marlins for reference.

    At least, the Mets are now at least in the 90 million $ range. And the young talent is better – in parts due to Alderson´s trades and in parts due to some “Minaya” era prospects finally graduating.

    Again, 2014 will be the first season that´ll truely be on Alderson. For better or worse.

  • Joey D.

    Hi DrD.,

    All you say has merit to it, however, all that is irrelevant to the question itself being totally unfair to both individuals. As said “The circumstances dictated the altogether different job description of the general manager when each was each needed.” The economic circumstances allowed for the focus of the GM to be on baseball after 2004 while all the focus on keeping the business solvent was needed by 2010.
    Remember I did ask why the Wilpons didn’t feel a need to seek out Sandy’s services in the Fall of 2004 when he was also available, considering how urgently they wanted him in the Fall of 2010?

  • The scenario you describe is a reasonable one to have but for me to
    answer your question by pointing individuals (at least those I can
    recall by name) out based on past experience here at MMO would in the
    absence of not also finding past comments to show why if I could find
    them to begin with, serve little use. I also recall comments that view the GM here only to fix the financial situation and in doing so lay the blame of the situation the Mets have found themselves in on ownership and even one specifically who has been mocked for doing so.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    You talk about facts? LMAO… When do you use facts to bash Alderson.

    Heres a FACT for you about Alderson “NINE DAMN STRAIGHT LOSING SEASONS AS A GENERAL MANAGER” one more and that will be “A DECADE OF LOSING CONSECUTIVELY”

    How’s that for facts I use to bash him??? And rightfully so…..

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

    And THATS a FACT JACK!

    #FACTS

  • DKNOKOZ

    I agree with what your saying. There will always be a mixed bag of owners who have different goals. Motives and circumstances aside though, my question is do these guys owe the fans anything? Don’t they have a responsibility, because of the public resources that they consume for free basically, to put forth their best effort to field a winner? If the answer is yes then I’m not sure that (secret in the Mets case) financial circumstances should affect that responsibility.

    I personally feel like they owe an effort that is commensurate with what they are taking out. I go to Citi and I see EMS, police, fire, traffic, consumed parking areas. I live near that area, it’s a pain in the a$$ if you have to go by there and you’re not going to the game. Then again it’s their business and in America, you run your business however you want. I’m not sure what the answer is to be honest.

  • If your point is that he is only here to fix the financial situation and not to build a winning franchise (an idea I don’t share) then the results your getting are that being sent down by ownership.
    Like I said I have never viewed the GM’s job as just this or that but rather a more complicated process and I agree as I have stated in the past he has done a terrible job of spending wisely. His bullpen investments being the prime examples.
    That said those decisions have not affected the team long term as most of the contracts in the early years have been short term or minor league signings in my opinion due in part to allow the farm to develop and eventually start to fill those needs from within.
    My take has always been that despite whatever hardships the organization has been under no GM can expect to go without showing results indefinitely. Patience has it’s limits and I consider myself very patient but after 3 seasons I feel the GM needs to start showing results and by that I don’t mean a .500 record. For me it’s reaching the playoffs as realistic or unrealistic as some may perceive it. The time to start delivering results begins this season for the GM. To expect fans to show more patience then those that already have is asking too much in my opinion.

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    Very cool. Just wanted to make sure you’d witnessed specific instances. Sometimes people (myself included) will hear a number of viewpoints in an argument, and inadvertently combine some of them.

    I’ll keep an eye out here–I’m new, and just getting to know the veteran personalities of MMO. It’s a great group.

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    Do they owe the fans anything? Depends who you ask.

    In discussing this, an old Chomsky phrase comes to mind re corporate business philosophy: “subsidize the costs and privatize the profits.”

  • DKNOKOZ

    Haha that is a tried and true philosophy.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Please, you picked some of the best players in baseball and compared them to FMart and Mejia?

    Have you ever sat back and thought for a player to be moved through the minors quickly he has to be one of the BEST PROSPECTS???

    So its no coincidence if he ends up one of the bright up and coming stars in the MLB???

    I’m sorry but Fmart Mejjia and Gomez were never as highly touted as those Guys on your list.

    WRONG AGAIN

    F-MART & Mejia were both TOP PROSPECTS as those players…Ididnt mention Gomez BUT so was he(you failed yourself) smh

    -F-mart ranked as high as #22 by baseball america
    -Mejia ranked as high as #44 by baseball america

    -Gomez ranked as high as #52 by baseball america

    Here are some more guys

    -Anthony Rendon
    -Gerrit Cole
    -Sonny Gray
    -Joe Fernandez
    -Kolten Wong
    -Jackie Bradley
    -Tony Cingrani
    -Carter Capps
    -Cody Acshe
    -Marcus Semien

    Guess what they all have in common???

    1. They were all what you would call RUSHED
    2. They were all drafted in 2011
    3. All of them played in the majors in 2013
    4. Nimmo was selected in the same draft and he was still in A-ball 😉

    Oh and Addison Russell is being RUSHED BIG TIME he’s already made it to Tripe A at age “19” 3 or 4 levels above Cecchini who was selected after him and he’s still in Rookie ball.

    Im gonna learn you a lesson son 😉 lol

    On your favorite sport since youre so ignorant about it…when im done with you your baaseball IQ will be up to par 😉

    And im going to do it with…..(see below)

    FACTS!!!

    FYI Im not a fan of NO GM….And Minaya needed to be fired at the time…an adequate replacement was needed unfortunately they gave the job to Alderson a terrible GM

  • DrDooby

    Yes, the Wilpons´ didn´t seek a GM from the “outside” in 2004 (while Minaya technically came from Montreal, he was still sort of a “homegrown” longtime internal executive). Just like with his predecessors, they wanted to be in “control” and not leave it to an outsider.

    In 2010, they really had no choice, being this close to losing their franchise. Had they just named John Ricco the GM – certainly a well-respected executive around Baseball – then MLB would have been rather unhappy in all likelihood and maybe not assisted in helping them survive.

    So, I´m pretty sure, that in 2004, neither Alderson nor Billy Beane, Walt Jocketty, Theo Epstein or any other high profile executive from the “outside” was seriously considered. There really wasn´t much of a search but just the retun of a “lost son” in Omar Minaya.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    2010 He was only given a taste only 92plate appearances im referring to his “1ST FULL SEASON IN 2011”

    2011 = .292AVG, .370OBP .482SLG, .852OPS

    Stop Pretending to be ignorant…that year he was so on fire Collins had him bat 3rd in the lineup at 1 point but had to move Duda back to cleanup and Wright to 3rd because they were pitching around Duda to get to the struggling Wright. And when Wright hit in front of him that year they would go after Wright.

    FACTS

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Exactly Vinny there is always an adjustment period…and the jump from the minors to the majors is a tough one. Your facing guys youve never seen before….AND by the way they also happen to be the BEST in the WORLD.

    Jason Bay is just to blinded by his hatred for Minaya that he makes up nonsense…

    Look at his comment below the guy is bring up guys like Gary Matthews Jr., Cora and Igarachi lollollollol….he is beyond ridiculous how does those players have anything to do with this argument other than to deflect and take the argument somewhere else smh..

  • Fast Eddie

    Minaya was done in, at least in part, by the Madoff scandal, which put a giant hole in the Mets’ budget when they could least afford it. On the other hand, Omar spent entirely too much to acquire veteran players on the downside of their careers (P. Martinez, El Duque, Delgado). Inevitably, they suffered injuries that took away their ability to perform, making Minaya look like a fool.

    The moral of the story: throwing mounds of cash at superannuated players is like betting your rent money on long shots; better to invest in young talent with a considerable upside. Also, never commit big bucks and long contracts to pitchers already beyond their 30th birthday.

    He dicho.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    HA!

    Their is a small fraction here that says he was brought here to save the Wilpons.

    And that group is led by a commentor by the name of @SRT she is the Queen of that army.

    Now the other side…the majority which im a member…Stands by the idea that Alderson flat out sucks as a GM and 9 straight losing seasons as a GM is pretty hard to argue against.

    Now to the last faction….It consists of fans whom TRUSTED Alderson when he was hired and through the years have lost confidence in him with each passing year…Theyve now grown impatient with him due to the terrible teams he has fielded and all the double talk…lies galore etc…and they are now fed up with him and their tunes have changed to….

    “HE WAS JUST BROUGHT HERE TO SAVE THE WILPONS”

    They say this because in their minds theyre thinking no GM could be this BAD at putting a team together lol….And that group is the one that Mr.NorthJersey is referring too. He is reaching when he says its a big group of people saying both at the same time.

    Oh i almost forgot one group the “Sandy slurpers” aka Sandys Saints

    Now this group is the most annoying…They praise EVERYTHING Alderson does If its something good they give the credit to Alderson if its something bad they find a patsy ANYONE in the organization to put the blame on…In 2011 & 2012 the patsy was Omar Minaya now after being 3years removed from the organization they had to find a new patsy enter public enemy #1 to mets fans Jeff Wilpon….lol

    Im sure over at Metsblog you guys had these same exact groups

    WELCOME TO MMO 😉

  • I believe the word I used was “some”.

  • SpinalRemains

    Couldn’t agree more. Spot on.

    This organization is run by the owner’s current finances, period. Whether they spend big or sell high. The GM in place is merely a puppet or tool used to employ the year’s given plan. Nothing more.

    I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am getting sick of seeing my beloved team act like a small market club while simultaneously charging fans big market prices. It’s time to let the roster reflect those $14.50, 12oz. Becks.

  • Joey D.

    HI DKNOKOZ,

    It is not even a moral issue when it comes to the Wilpons. It is a question of whether or not they want to retain ownership of the Mets for their own business purposes – let it be long-term or just being able to alleviate some of the debt so they can get a better selling price.

    Sandy was hired by them for the specific reason of keeping Sterling Mets solvent. The quality of the product has little to do with it as it does keeping that business afloat for the two cannot be done congruently at this time like with other franchises. It is not fair, it goes against the ethics of competitive integrity (which is different than competitive decision making stupidity) but it’s the only choice they had.

    And that is why Sandy was hired. He’s an expert in that field. Nothing more. He has made it a priority to reduce payroll and keep it at a certain level based on fiscal priority. One might ask even if his priority was all financial and he looked at the team purely as a business venture, then why not simply invest more in the payroll to generate more revenue instead? Addressing that issue, a thought from Neil deMause, a journalist who has covered sports economics for Slate, the Village Voice, Baseball Prospectus, etc. and runs the stadium news website “Field of Schemes”:

    “MLB revenues are rising far faster than inflation, but that’s not the same as a rise in marginal revenues from a win; if every team owner is guaranteed a hefty check just by showing up and putting his games on cable, that actually makes it less worthwhile to sink those dollars into a Cano or Ellsbury in hopes of a few extra wins.

    deMause continued explaining why it might not be economically worth investing more money into players for a few extra wins, citing a thesis form a Brown University undergraduate student a year ago:

    ” honors economics student Graham Tyler conducted an insanely thorough analysis to determine how much each additional win was worth to each and every team in baseball. His conclusion: Wins are worth more once you get above a .500 record, but even then the average team gets only about an extra $1.5 million in revenue from each win – meaning even if Jhonny Peralta is “worth” his new contract based on what the market rate is for shortstops, he’s only likely to bring the Cardinals an extra $4.5 million next year, while being paid nearly three times that.”

    It is feasible that Sandy has read this or similar studies and being the analytical individual that he is concluded the Mets would need to win 93 games this coming season (12 over .500) to justify simply spending $18 million more in payroll which would be made up in revenue according to Tyler, who is now an assistant for baseball operations with Tampa Bay.

    With the Mets being in the fiscal situation they are, would he be willing to take that chance?

    So there are “logical” economic reasons based on “analytical” studies which have nothing to do with baseball that could have also led to Sandy’s decisions which is not at all based on rebuilding but the most effective way of money management. “Rebuilding” is just a smokescreen for we now have the pitching and defense that could carry us if we just improved our offense by filling in two holes.

    With the Mets being in the developmental stage they are with no prospects anywhere near ready in the minors to help us at this time, why would ne not be willing to take that chance with free agents? Is it that he is not willing to risk $18 million without the guarantee that he would not get it all back in revenue if the Mets failed to win those 93 games?

    http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/64332632/

  • Mike

    Wow so Fmart and Gomez were ranked 22 and 44 so? Like I said earlier, trout and Harper were like one and two, big difference. Almost all of those guys you just wrote on your second list were mostly in the bigs for a cup of coffee, doesn’t mean anything a lot of prospects come up in sept doesn’t mean they’re going to be on opening day roster the next year. It just means rosters expanded. You can spin things however you want the fact is Omar did a bad job as GM, which is why he was fired, same goes for Montreal he traded Sizemore, Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips for soon to free agent Bartolo Colon? One of the worse trades in mlb history. He left Sandy a bunch if fringe players for the most part after he left and he traded away solid players like Heath Bell, Joe Smith and Jadon Vargas and got nothing in return. He also extended old guys like Castillo, Delgado and Alou when he didn’t have to which hurt the team. FACTS! Omar was a terrible GM and this team is still suffering from his choices.

  • jason bay

    El-Duque, Valentin, Lo Duca and Delgado were acquired simply by taking on salary which is fine for a big market team able to do so but they didn’t provide the Mets with the time necessary to fill in behind and were therefore counted on yet again via re-signings or picking up their options and immediately got hurt, tanked or both.

    The failure with those guys was in not offering arbitration and taking the supplemental draft pick they had each earned.

    Knowing when to say when is one of the most important qualities for a GM and recycling productive players into other younger and better players is a vital part of building a consistent winner.

    As an example the Cardinals turned Adam Kennedy into Jim Edmonds, then turned him into David Freese and now have turned Freese into Bourjos and Grichuk.

  • Mike

    He appeared in 100 gms in 11? How is that a full season? That is what you’re basing Duda’s “stud ness” on? 100 gms? Which btw he didn’t start a lot of and he struggled early in 11′ too, so basically he had a decent august and Sept, one yr of his career. Oh yeah I get it now, forget the two straight demotions since, or the horrific defense/base running and the called strikes down the middle and month long slumps, yeah Duda’s a stud because he hit his weight for two months 3 yrs ago! Glad you’re not a talent evaluator, next you’re going to tell me how Tejada’s career year when he slugged 350 was the year he was snubbed for MVP!

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    Phenomenal background–thank you!

    I stumbled on MrNJ’s statement that there were people who believe (1) Sandy’s only here for finances AND (2) they blame Sandy for failure.

    To me, #1 excuses any failures. If he’s here only as the financial hatchetman, you can’t complain if the team stinks. His purpose would be to force profitability, and that means driving costs below minimum revenue. Low spend = crap team.

    The only way the two pieces reconcile, in my mind, is if they also think the Wilpons have plenty of cash, and Sandy is CHOOSING to create profit this way, as opposed to spending $120M and competing for add’l attendance and additional postseason $$$ to go above that $120M (or whatever). I don’t buy that at all.

  • Joey D.

    Hi DrD.

    Agreed, the Wilpons always hired from the inside and thus you conclude even the chance of acquiring a Sandy Alderson or a Billy Beane was not going to change that.. Which then begs the question why they suddenly changed course and went outside and hired Sandy in 2010.

    You answered that yourself: “Had they just named John Ricco the GM – certainly a well-respected executive around Baseball -then MLB would have been rather unhappy in all likelihood and maybe not assisted in helping them survive.”

    So if promoting from within was reason enough not to consider one with Sandy’s type reputation in 2004, but the risk of being forced out of baseball was the only reason to hire him in 2010 over Ricco – well, that does not speak highly of their thoughts about Sandy’s credentials in either case (not that the Wilpons thoughts are highly respected, either).

    And don’t forget Sandy wasn’t sought out by other teams to handle baseball matters after resigning from Oakland. For many of us, he still hasn’t been (again, not a knock on him, just an acknowledgement of him being a business person in charge of the corporate end instead).

  • jason bay

    It takes a very long time to build a LONG term winning franchise. That’s why past GM’s performance is relevant to today’s situation.

    For example how did Reyes and Wright affect Minaya’s chances for success? How did Duquette (really Jr.) trading Kazmir affect them? How did Phillips busting on 14 of 17 1st-3rd round draft picks affect those chances? What options were available with inherited prospects like Psomas, Jacobs, Petit (Delgado) Gaby Hernandez, Paul Brinkley (Lo Duca) Milledge (Schneider and Church) Humber and Gomez (Santana) and inherited players like Kris Benson, Mike Cameron, Mike Stanton, Pedro Feliciano, Mike Piazza, Aaron Heilman, Kaz Matsui, Cliff Floyd and Tom Glavine?

    A team is in constant evolution over a period of many years and those teams that are successful, are so in a large part because of moves made or not made over the prior 5-15 years and the options available provided by those moves made or not.

    We haven’t had much in the way of continuity with our GM’s since Cashen with Harazin for 3 years, Mcilvaine 3 1/2, Phillips, 6, Duquette 1, Minaya 6 and all too often that results in job saving short term moves like Vaughn, Burnitz, Alomar, Weathers, Cedeno, Floyd, Bay, ect. at the end of their tenures which just makes the hill steeper for the next guy.,

  • DrDooby

    Another question – of course – is whether Alderson who had already achieved as much as any GM can achieve, i.e. building a mini-dynasty and winning a WS title in the process with three straight WS appearances- was even (actively) seeking another GM job since he departed in Oakland and until he took over the Mets. From what I´ve read, that wasn´t really his plan and it does appear that he took on this job, sort of as an emergency fire-fighter in a very critical spot. I´m not sure and very much doubt that Alderson would have gladly taken on a GM job with, say, Pittsburgh, Cleveland or Milwaukee, in 2009 for example.

    However, this particular challenge certainly may have intrigued him – turn a struggling big market club around.

  • Joey D.

    Hi DrD.,

    “However, this particular challenge certainly may have intrigued him – turn a struggling big market club around.”

    Know you were talking about 2010 and probably the financial situation but If that doesn’t even more properly describe the state of the New York Mets as far as a club and minor league system after the 2004 season I don’t know what else could. LOL.

    He wasn’t actively seeking the Met GM job at either time. And even if he wasn’t interested in other clubs, that wouldn’t stop other clubs from approaching him to actually find that out.

    Remember when he said he would have been happy if he remained in the Dominican Republic? Somehow I think he might still be feeling that way today. 🙂

  • kw_all

    you denigrate the ghost of Joan Payson … shame on you (insert grin or sarcastic smile)
    m. donald grant killed the mets during that time, not Mrs Payson .. she let the baseball people run the franchise

  • kw_all

    to me Minaya was fired because the Wilpon way failed and they needed a fall guy .. plus the money ran out.
    i agree about the draft picks (Task) but also remember in context, Bud didnt want teams going over slot, the mets didnt and are paying the price for that now ..
    but hey we got Sandy Alderson out of it

  • jason bay

    Losing a few more games would have really helped this Franchise as players like Lindor, Baez, Russell, Almora, Meadows ect were selected before we got to choose.

    Now some will say that there is no way McDonald, Tanous, Depo Alderson ect would have selected those players and that is possible but no one knows.

    Yes it is true that Depo stated he would have taken Cecchini 1st if he had the pick but I discount that as pumping up his own guy but who can say. I certainly wouldn’t expect him to come out and say I wish Oakland hadn’t selected Russell right in front of us after he took Cecchini.

    Chiefly among the reasons a complete rebuild was not possible was the owners financial situation. They couldn’t weather a continuing loss of cash flow that began in 2009 and sharply accelerated in 2010.

    What is hurting this team the most right now are two things:

    1) We are not getting much in the way of production with Harvey out from the 2006-2010 draft beyond Murphy and Gee. (Duda, Ike, Kirk, Satin, Schwinden, Edgin, MDD).

    2) We appear to have missed out on the great IFA classes of 2008 and 2009.

    What will make a difference this year is getting something substantial from the 2007 IFA class which includes Lagares, Flores and Puello and getting something more from the 2006-2010 draft class than just Murphy and Gee. Add to that Granderson, Colon, Young, d’Anaurd, Montero and Syndergaard.

    Had Reyes been exchanged for prospects we might have one or two high performers here right now but the trade deadline market at SS wasn’t as large as the OF (Bourn, Pence, Beltran) Arizona and Millwaukee could have traded for Reyes but they had no farms and Detroit could have slid Peralta to 2B but they had no farm either.

    St. L Would have been a match for sure but SF would have had Wheeler, Brown, Belt, Peguera, Neal and Casillo to discuss and we got the best one anyway, Belt wouldn’t have been a target with Ike still well thought of and Reyes was hurt so that was that.

  • kw_all

    Johan Santana .. you make that trade nearly 100% of the time .. and Gomez is the only guy who became something (out of 4 or 5 prospects in the deal) for a proven ACE. come on jb.
    the mets traded heath bell after his age 28 season, he didnt become a big time closer until his age 31 season .. who knew ?
    joe smith .. i hated the trade at the time, the mets got shawn green and jj putz (who was hurt) and gave up heilman (who had to go) vargas (a tough loss) and smith (a bigger loss). but there are no all-stars here and this is no worse than the pagan trade really .. if the medical staff had examined putz correctly or if he had been healthy, it would have been an ok trade.
    the mets got jason vargas in the lindstrom deal, so i dont think its fair to have both of them on this list ..

    my point is, in the context of the times, none of the moves was individually awful .. the problem was the not paying over slot, giving away draft picks (see the billy wagner trade) and perhaps not offering arb to some players.

    but in trading all those guys, in most cases i would do it again.

  • jason bay

    Agree Dr. D,

    The Wilpon’s always preferred an in house hire that they could influence to run the team the way they needed it to be run.

    Big names at ticket selling time with the bail out of the salary dump when seasons crumbled was for financial reason the best way to operate.

    Limited investment i the draft and international free agency and a failure to recycle good older players into good younger one’s kept our needs glaring and there were only two alternatives. Trade young players and prospects or sign expensive free agents.

    I felt like Minaya was the perfect choice in 2004 though and I still believe he could have done it within the parameters of the Wilpon Methos with just a couple of tweeks here and there.

    Gone after type B FA’s would have kept our draft picks, used the money saved on the less expensive imports to pay the salaries of players like Piazza, Floyd, Glavine and Cameron at the deadline to extract elite prospects to beef up the farm while also letting guys that had earned a draft pick go FA like El-Duque, Lo Duca, Valentin, Castillo, Perez, Delgado, Tatis, Floyd,ect and get some bookmarks at which he was pretty good as evidenced by the above names.

    Keep picking up bookmarks until the farm could provide solutions and something to trade.

    Of course after getting so close in 2006 the focus shifted entirely but the team was too old as those guys listed above plus Pedro were too old to keep the window open for very long..

  • Just_Da_damaja

    yes the mets failed in offering LoDuca, Valentin and Delgado arbitration !

    how much did those guys earn in the year after they left

    how much would they have earned if they were offered arb.

    What a moron you are

  • Just_Da_damaja

    Good a cold Noam Chomsky….

    I dont idolize anyone but NC is damn near close.

    Def one of the folks on my have to meet list.

    Have you seen regeneration ? ( the movie i was promoting to no end on Metsblog a while back ? )

  • vigouge

    I don’t believe the pick had anything to do with it, it was purely the money owed to Wagner that drove the deal. You mistake the Wilpons not valuing draft picks properly with a desire to avoid draft picks.

  • Tlagee

    Hi Joe,

    Good points you made. Omar had his good points and his blind spots.

    The only point I want to make is that I don’t agree that Sandy did such a great job with his trades. He traded a possible future hall of famer in his prime and got back a mid rotation prospect. The Giants were desperate for Beltran’s bat to stay in the pennant race and had the deepest pitching in baseball. It’s irrelevant that Beltran and the Giants didn’t succeed.

    Sandy traded the reigning Cy Young winner for an oft injured catching prospect and an “A” pitching prospect. Again, the Blue Jays were desperate to ‘win now’.

    Then he traded most of the remaining position playing offense for a good relief prospect who has control issues. The pirates were also desperate.

    He did a good but not great job. I have to believe that any. GM could have made the same trades.

  • jason bay

    Teams cut deals with type B FA’s all the time to have them turn down arbitration like the Yankees did with Vazquez.

    Players oftentimes also turn down arb because they prefer a longer term deal.

    If the Mets turned down Lo Duca’s option after 2006 he would have signed elsewhere. Same with Delgado after 2008 when these players still had a value and they wouldn’t have cost the signing team a draft pick as type B FA’s.

    Valentin, El-Duque and Tatis wouldn’t have cost a signing team a pick either and both had ressurected their careers and Oliver (who did leave) tripled his salary.

    Sure if your talking about what they signed for after they tanked or got hurt the year after we picked up their options or extended them that’s one thing but they weren’t type B FA’s those years moron.

  • vigouge

    The 500k was his base salary, he got 400k for making the team, 50k for 70 games, he was then traded. He was on pace for 100-110 gp’s with the team (he ended with 104 with the Dodgers). Had he continued at that pace the Mets would have owed 650k more (850 if he hit 110). That would have been 1.6m for a bad player who most likely would have gotten ~1.8m+ in arbitration. He was never going to bring back a pick. The Dodgers, who he played out of his mind for, didn’t even offer him arbitration and they wanted him back.

    If the Mets had held onto him then they would have been risking up to a guaranteed 650k (+ what the Dodgers paid for him) and up to ~3m had he accepted arbitration for the chance at a draft pick that has an average value of ~1m dollars. That’s not a good gamble. I get and agree with your point on the Mets wasting draft classes, but Barajas isn’t a good example.

  • jason bay

    Vigouge,

    The Wilpon’s purposely avoid obtaining draft picks whenever possible by not offering arbitration to players they don’t want to re-sign.ie Alfonzo, Piazza, Leiter, Floyd, Oliver,Lo Duca,

    They also dumped their #1 in 2007 by signing Alou a couple weeks before the Giants had to offer arbitration thereby forfeiting the pick.

    The draft picks they have taken back were mostly guys that other teams signed before we had to offer arbitration (Roberto Hernandez after 2006 and Glavine after 2007) I highly doubt that either would have been offered arb to get an extra pick.

    Bradford was the only player we didn’t re sign who was offered arb during Minaya’s tenure and I believe the thinking there was they wanted to re-sign him,but he went with Baltimore and we got a supp and their 3rd rounder.

    The last thing that the Wilpon’s would have wanted was to have to scrape up 3 M for signing bonuses for the two draft picks Wagner could have left behind and what’s the excuse for trading Barajas?

    Barajas only made 500 K the whole 2010 season so selling him (and the draft pick he had earned) with five weeks left in the season saved them about 100 K. Big deal.

    Who knows how much cash they got for him but for 5 weeks I doubt it was much and pales in comparison to what even an under slot selection in the supplemental round might have gone for (Fulmer got 1 M)

    When trading Wagner with 5 weeks left in the season they saved about 2 M in salary and 1 M in the buyout. The two draft picks combined would have gotten 3 M so the best that you can say is it was 50/50 as to what the motivating factor was behind the trade of Billy or more accurately that it was to save the total of 6 M.

    Save 3 M in payroll AND save 3 M in signing bonuses.

    Red Sox had no problem paying 6 M for 5 weeks of Wagner and two first rounders.

  • jason bay

    Lot’s of mid to late season transactions are all about saving money in recent Met history including the salary dump deals of Cedeno, Matsui, Weathers and Mota. the preseason trade of Cameron, the DFAing of Livan Hernandez and Alex Cora with options on pace to vest.

    I am not saying that every move was done only for saving salary or avoiding obtaining extra draft picks but when you look at the totality of the moves it certainly appears that late season cash outs and avoidance of extra draft picks have been a large part of the Wilpon strategy and 3 M saved on payroll is worth exactly the same as 3 M not spent on the draft.

    Wagner also was the ultimate candidate to turn down arb (as he did with Boston) as he wanted to close and that wouldn’t be possible with k Rod 9or Paplebon), wanted to set the career record for saves by a LHP (fell a couple short to Franco) and wanted a chance to win his first ring and do so preferably close to home.

    Slam dunk. 20th and 39th picks in a draft that is currently comprising many of the best prospects in baseball.

  • Gland1

    I have no idea how I have managed to avoid getting banned over there. No nobody seems to know what’s going on. It’s like a moronic free for all.

  • Captain America

    Please share any comparable trades made where 40+ games of a player without any FA compensation available was swapped for a top MiLB prospect?

  • Captain America

    And there is also a group (led by Alex) that despise Alderson, truly love Omar but claim they hate Omar…

    It is similar to give a political analogy to Republicans who tried to distance themselves after the fact with GWB and claimed to now be libertarians …. Same thing

  • Tlagee

    Hey captain,

    Supply and demand. Giants desperately needed a bat to make the playoffs and were pitching rich. Trades like this one are made every year at the trading deadline.

    Sandy was not a genius, as much as some may believe.

  • Captain America

    Please share any comparable trades made where 40+ games of a player without any FA compensation available was swapped for a top MiLB prospect?

  • DKNOKOZ

    Thanks for taking the time to write such a well-thought out and insightful post.

  • Joey D.

    Hi DKNOKOZ,

    I really do appreciate those words. It’s refreshing not to hear how I don’t know what I’m talking about…. LOL

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Politics & conspiracy on a Mets forum o_0

    Take off the foil paper hat

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    And still your tune remains the same

    http://youtu.be/BsKbwR7WXN4

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Please share any comparable trades made where 40+ games of a player without any FA compensation available was swapped for a top MiLB prospect?–@Captain America

    “SURE”

    Without even thinking MATT GARZA!!!! last year

    Cubs got back “FOUR PROSPECTS”

    – Mike Olt(Ranked #22 Prospect in all of baseball, Zack Wheeler was ranked #55 when we traded for him)
    – Justin Grimm
    – C. J. Edwards
    – Neil Ramirez

    DROPS MIC!

    [On your head and exits stage left]

    Soooo you look REALLY STUPID right about now

    JAJAJAJAJA!!!! You make this so easy

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    @tlagee:disqus

    Dont worry I gave you an assist below he wont bother you with that stupid question anymore 😉

  • DrDooby

    Wheeler was a much higher rated prospect in JULY 2011 than Olt was in JULY 2013, having an Ike Davis type season – at AAA at age 25. Olt is neither a Top 100 in Baseball nor a Top 10 in the – granted strong – Cubs system at this point. The lists you mention were done in January / February of that respective year and there’s a lot of dynamic within that time frame.

    The best player traded at the time of the trade already was RH CJ Edwards, now a borderline Top 50 in Baseball prospect.

    But agreed, the Cubs – Rangers trade was similar overall. No prospect touted as highly as Wheeler at the time of the trade. But certainly similar value.

    In any case, the Wheeler trade has been mentioned as a key reason for the lack of significant trade activity at recent deadlines. Contenders aren’t willing to part with a high-end prospect like that for a rental while rebuilders are insisting on getting such a player in return.

  • DrDooby

    Most GMs could have traded Beltran for OF Gary Brown (as widely speculated in the media before the trade) and could have traded RA Dickey for JP Arencibia and Anthony Gose (as widely speculated in the media before the trade). Let alone trading Dickey to the CWS for OF Dayan Viciedo and a RHP named Joe Shirek. THAT were trades the media expected to see. Not trades involving 3 Top 50 in Baseball prospects.

    Also, no GM in Baseball considered RA Dickey on par with other aces in Baseball. The Kansas City Royals were unwilling to part with Wil Myers for Dickey but gladly did so for James Shields. Taking nothing away from Dickey, he is widely being considered as a fine # 2 SP on a good staff but not a true ace.

    His 3-year splits from 2011 through 2013:
    3.40 ERA, .241 BA, .297 OBP, .389 SLG against. That’s a fine # 2. Nothing more. Nothing less.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    LMAO…You said all of that to say what?

    I was STILL RIGHT regardless…of your semantics lol they were as touted as Wheeler they were more valuable since they were MAJOR LEAGUE READY and Wheeler was still a mystery whom started to regress after pitching mechanics adjustments, struggles throwing strikes consistently & repeating delivery(all 3 things he still has issues with today)

    FOUR PROSPECTS to ONE

    That was a weak attempt lol

    FYI Be careful what you say it come back to bite you in the A–….Case and point Travis d’Arnaud is the same age as Olt(tda only younger by a few months) and he sucked last year as well both were injured.

    So is TDA a bum too?

    FYI Olt is still a top 10 prospect in the Cubs system which is stacked

    Youre on thin ice 😉

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Thats your mistake right there…The media doesnt make trades nor know jacksh– about prospects and players trade value.

    They are wrong 99% of the time on their trade proposals

  • DrDooby

    Don’t agree with the moron part – but do agree with the rest of your post. Offering arbitration to LoDuca, Valentin and especially Delgado would have been extremely dangerous based on the types of seasons they had prior to free agency and the respective age of each player.

    The problem was just selling Billy Wagner instead of getting draft pick compensation and signing players such as Alou or KRod – in parts even before arbitration had to be offered – while losing 1st round picks in the process.

    There was no problem losing a 1st rounder for Billy Wagner, losing 2nd rounders for Carlos Beltran and Jason Bay (sure in retrospect but not when it happened) and a 3rd rounder for Pedro Martinez.

    But you can’t do it every year and not for players who have already started to fade

  • DrDooby

    The media also features several former front office executives, Jim Bowden for example -though granted, not a very good one.

    Again, had the Dickey trade been Dickey, Thole and Nickeas for just d’ Arnaud, Buck and Becerra, there would have been no complaints.

    And d’Arnaud still is a consensus Top 50 in MLB prospect whereas Olt probably isn’t even considered a Top 150 anymore after collapsing in value due to deficiences on the field in 2013.

  • DrDooby

    Olt has missed both the BA & BP Cubs Top 10. Again, Edwards is a very good prospect and close to what Wheeler was in 2011.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Close? lol he is ranked higher

    Regardless……FOUR PROSPECTS!!! to one

    The question was asked as if it was the only of its kind and some unbelievable feat yet the Cubs 1upped it no they 4up’ed it by getting 4 good to great PROSPECTS

  • Hotstreak

    Wheeler or Mike Minor: However Parnell AND Beltran was rumored in Braves blogs.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    “Teams cut deals with type B FA’s all the time to have them turn down arbitration like the Yankees did with Vazquez.”

    “Players oftentimes also turn down arb because they prefer a longer term deal.”

    “If the Mets turned down Lo Duca’s option after 2006 he would have signed elsewhere. Same with Delgado after 2008 when these players still had a value and they wouldn’t have cost the signing team a draft pick as type B FA’s.”

    So wait,

    after LoDuca had an outstanding 2006 year for us, you are proposing that Omar should’ve declined his 2007 option, offered him arbitration instead, and allowed him to walk… because having a 2nd round draft pick was more important than a catcher who handled a crumbling staff full of kids and vets and also hit pretty well…

    Riddle me this…

    who would’ve been our 2007 catcher?

    Same with Delgado..

    In Sept. 2008, this is what was written about Delgado by our very own Joe D.

    “Coming into this season, Delgado shouldered much of the blame for 2007. Since late June, Delgado has literally carried the Mets back into contention and continues to come up big in the clutch. What started out as a hot week in late June, has now become a second half that leads the league in almost every offensive category including homeruns, RBI, Slugging Percentage and Total Bases.

    The question of whether the Mets should pick up his team option has been answered, and last night Delgado put an exclamation point on it. YES!”

    “The failure with THOSE guys was in not offering arbitration and taking the supplemental draft pick they had each earned.”

    again..the failure with YOU is constantly playing captain HINDSIGHT on everything Omar did or did not do.

    you really a miserable lonely fawck if the only high u get during the day is to try to look like some genius by pathetically second-guessing everything with no regard to CONTEXT !

    anyone who has been here and knows you as T Agee ( which u first tried to deny ) sees right through you.

  • Captain America

    Wheeler vs. 25 year old suspect whose vision was shot and every team knew it.

    Thanks for trying. Any other examples?

  • Just_Da_damaja

    Ahead of the curve:

    “i’ll be honest… i dont think its fair to compare gm’s to each other.

    they are not like boxers who play the same sport under mostly the same conditions…

    Sandy was forced to take this job. You cant ignore the dynamics that presents.

    – JDD 1/21/2014

    I’ve been saying this for years…

  • Captain America

    MILWAUKEE – Rangers GM Jon Daniels addressed the media prior to Tuesday’s game and broached a number of topics, including Mike Olt, who is sidelined at Triple-A Round Rock because of vision troubles.

    “He’s seen a couple of different eye doctors that specialize in a couple of things,” Daniels said. “They have not found anything conclusive at this point. We’ve scheduled him to see another specialist in about 10 days to two weeks. In the meantime, we’ll put him on the DL based on his symptoms. We don’t want to put the guy at the plate when he’s having vision issues. Hopefully we’ll know more after he sees that specialist.”

    The Rangers have yet to officially make a move with Olt, but it’s expected that he’ll be placed on the 7-day DL in the near future. Olt hasn’t appeared in a game since April 25, but he has been taking batting practice and grounders.

    Olt sustained a concussion while playing in the Dominican Winter League in November. Daniels said that the possibility of that being the root of his vision problems has been discussed, but nothing has been determined.

    “He said it’s been bothering him (for a while),” Daniels said. “He thought he could push through it and it would get better as he saw more live pitching. It didn’t get better and it got to a point where he reached out for some help.”

    Olt has posted a .135/.235/.236 line with 32 strikeouts in 72 at bats in Triple-A Round Rock this season.

  • Captain America

    Correct Dooby, Olt dropped off the top 100 prospect list. Hard to hit a baseball when your eyes go bad.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    LMAOOOO

  • Just_Da_damaja

    well considering Wright plays like Babe Ruth for 2 months than like Dr. Ruth for the rest of the year, your statistics are worthless..

    His OWN batting coach has said that for the past few years, David goes on a torrid hot streak for 2 months, then changes his mechanics, than somewhere along the line, just gets fatigued, then he cant catch up to the FB like he did in May…which further messes up his mechanics and turns him into a guess hitter by August/Sept.

    He’s not the 24 year old that could stay fresh in Sept anymore.

    And that doesnt matter if he is surrounded by Murderer’s Row or the 2010 Padres lineup.

  • Tlagee

    We can all debate whether Sandy is responsible for the poor showing of the last three years. Fred was stupid and greedy which is the biggest reason, but Sandy did take the job with his eyes wide open and began with his double talk and lying from day one.

    We can also debate whether he was a genius over the trades he made.

    But what isn’t debatable is the team at Citi Field has gotten worse since he’s been in charge.

    The problem with his trades is that he’s not replaced any of the all star players that he either traded or let go. It’s almost like those supporting Sandy care more about what goes on in double A than our beloved Mets.

    Sure it’s good to have some fine pitching prospects coming up, but how about the position players? Many here argue about the importance of the draft, but just how good are the players drafted since Sandy has been in charge? And, with the need for position players so great why has Sandy drafted high school players who are years from being ML ready if ever?

    Again, if you are rebuilding you still need a combination of young players and veterans.

  • jason bay

    Knowing when to say when is what separates the men from the boys.

  • jason bay

    Way to skirt the issue Leroy.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    So you are saying that going into the 2009 season, Omar should’ve let Delgado go after hitting 38 HR and tearing apart NL pitching in the 2nd half…

    and go with exactly who at 1B?

    LMAOOOO

  • jason bay

    Better than letting the sand run out of the hour glass on him and get nothing going forward as we did with Fonzie, Piazza, Leiter, Wagner, Alou, Valentin, El-Duque, lo Duca, Green, Mota, Putz, Perez, Castillo and Bay.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    go with exactly who at 1B?

    Answer the question

  • jason bay

    For the 2nd time, Adam Dunn for the reasons I posted when I answered your question the first time.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    awesome !

    and in 2009 with a young, cheap and controllable IKE DAVIS on the horizon, along with a MVP top finish from Delgado, taking a DECREASE in pay from 2008.

    You would’ve declined Delgado’s ONE YEAR option… IN OCTOBER, NOT knowing if Dunn would’ve been offered arbitration…or if he would’ve resigned, or signed with another team…

    YES, You too can run a MLB team

    You are a pathetic, baiting wimp.