MMO Fan Shot: Replacing What Was Lost, Will $29.25 Million Suffice?

fred wilpon

An MMO Fan Shot by Ryan Flanagan

Recent off-seasons for the Metropolitans have been full of angst, speculation and in the end, money unspent and fans restless. As the Mets were a top three spender of all MLB franchises just a few years ago, the team’s off-the-field financial decisions, most notably the participation in the ill-famed Ponzi scheme run by Bernie Madoff, have limited the club’s ability to take on payroll in recent years.

The team has strayed from handing big money contracts to top-tier free agents and has instead taken a course of building through the draft, grooming prospects to field a perennial contender similar to that baseball team a borough away did in the late 1990s.

The 2013 offseason was, as promised the past couple seasons by the front office, supposed to be the fruitful acquisition of talent to make the Mets a legit contender entering the 2014 season. An injury to Matt Harvey had derailed much of the hope that this team could in fact contend this year, but it still should have had no impact on who the team was set to acquire towards the future. As we stand at the turn of the calendar year, have the Mets offseason moves warranted any excitement? Moreover, have the Mets offseason moves even replaced what was lost? For that, we analyze:

The 2013 season was certainly a career year for Marlon Byrd. Signed to be a backup’s backup, the Mets had no intention of Byrd, coming off suspension for using estrogen to mask PEDs, to produce anywhere near what he accomplished last year. In a split season for the Mets and Pirates, Byrd hit .291 with 24 home runs and 88 RBIs. That, at a payroll cost of only $700,000. (Even less to the Mets, who shipped him to Pittsburgh for a quarter of the season and with a pro-rated share of the remaining owed salary. His replacement will be making $12,300,000 more than Byrd did in 2013.

Last season was a also monumental year for young ace Matt Harvey. His first full rookie season provided the most buzz around the Mets since 2006 notching 178.1 IP with 191 SOs and a dazzling 2.27 ERA. To the dismay of Met fans everywhere and any true fan of the game, Harvey’s season was tragically cut short with a need for Tommy John surgery, shelving Matt for the entire 2014 season.

Both these players, the team’s most productive pitcher and arguably the team’s most productive hitter in 2013, are not on the roster for 2014. So, what have the Mets done to replace that production? Enter Bartolo Colon and Curtis Granderson.

granderson

Pressured to make a move, the Mets quietly acquired Granderson coming off his worst and most injury-plagued season notching just 7 HRs and 15 RBIs over 60 games. The prior year, Granderson smashed 43 home runs and netted 106 RBIs in the friendly and borderline laughable confines of Yankee Stadium’s “Little League” dimensions. Pull-happy home runs don’t occur with frequency at Citi Field, and Granderson stands a much better chance to hit doubles and triples than the long ball.

Playing the opposite corner outfield position, Chris Young was signed on a one year, 7.25 million dollar deal coming off his worst offensive season to date batting just .200 with 12 home runs and 40 RBIs. The Mets are hoping to rekindle Young’s 2010 All-Star caliber season in which he hit 27 home runs and 91 RBIs in Arizona.

Lastly, in an attempt to replace Harvey’s loss in the rotation, the Mets signed 40+ year old Bartolo Colon to a two-year, $20 million dollar contract coming off a season that was arguably better than his 2005 Cy Young performance, notching a 2.65 ERA over 190.1 innings. The “Big 3” offseason moves equate to a tune of $29.25 million in payroll acquisitions for 2014 with Granderson making $13 million, Colon making $9 million and Young making $7.25 million in 2014.

2013 was also the year of addition-by-subtraction in that the Mets freed themselves from Johan Santana, Jason Bay and Frank Francisco’s contracts to a tune of roughly $50 million dollars. That’s $50 million dollars that came off the books towards 2014 of which only $29.25 million has been replaced to-date. That’s a difference of $18.75 million dollars.

The Mets have failed to replace the payroll that was freed this offseason, even though on the surface it appears the Mets have certainly spent. Does this mean that the Mets will surely fail? Absolutely not.

It is, however, rather disturbing that the Mets, whom play in the largest market in the nation and have a fanbase that ranks in the Top 5 in spending power and strength in numbers, fail to maintain a payroll in the top half of MLB franchises.

The fact that this was the “big offseason” where they had all that money coming off the books to spend, and so far in early January have failed to even replace what was lost, is disturbing.

* * * * * * * *

This Fan Shot was contributed by MMO reader Ryan Flanagan. Have something you want to say about the Mets? Share your opinions with over 25,000 Mets fans who read this site daily. Send your Fan Shot to GetMetsmerized@aol.com. Or ask us about becoming a regular contributor.

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  • Stupidseasonticketholder

    89 million dollar payroll for a New York baseball team. I think the Islanders are north of 50 million. I go to sleep every night wishing for different ownership

  • Ryan you said one thing that got my curiosity. You said, “…and have a fanbase that ranks in the Top 5 in spending power and strength in numbers”.

    What did you use as a source for this? I’d be interested in seeing how the rest of mlb teams rank in this.

  • RyanF55

    Totally agreed. I wasn’t aware of just how bad the Wilpons financial situation was. Think about it…the MLB National TV deal money, ALONE, can almost pay for all the Mets offseason moves. The 50 million freed up is essentially going right into their pockets, and not being replaced. It’s really frustrating to see that as a season ticket holder.

  • Charley’s Twin

    They owe so much freaking money (debt coming due) over the next 2 years it’s insane. Our best hope for the future is still these idiots selling.

  • joeyd1966

    Who would you like to see signed or who that was already signed by someone else would you have liked to see the Mets sign? I for one wanted Peralta but didn’t see a chance in hell he’d get four years, shocked it was the Cardinals to give him a deal like that.

    Pissed they weren’t in on the Fister deal. He was basically given to the Nats for free. There aren’t too many guys on the free agent market to get bent out of shape about not signing.

    I don’t care if the payroll is 90M or 190M. All that matters is they don’t spend it recklessly just to have a payroll that’s suitable for a big market. To me there weren’t any no brainer signings that we missed out on.

  • Benny

    “All they did was replace the money coming off the books…”

    They didn’t even do that (spent less).

  • Alex68 (Ch)

    Chris Young at $7.25 was a bargain. He has the ability to hit 280 20+ hr 20+ dbls 5+ triples 75+ rbi and play Great CF defense.
    Colon at 2/20 was a steal. we have an ACE in our mound who we can throw against anybody out there.
    CG? we have an MVP type caliber player in our lineup to help DW go back to being 2007 David Wright….
    In SANDY i trust, and if he believes it’s enough with what we have already, i think it’s enough then. a few minor deals here and there to fill up some positions need to be done but i am sure our genius GM will come up with another Marlon Byrd type player to a better team.
    #LetsGoMets
    #InSandyWeTrust
    #PositiveAttitude

  • Charley’s Twin

    Jose. Dariel. Abreu.

  • MLBGM Fire TC

    abreau

  • MLBGM Fire TC

    LMAO

  • Alex68 (Ch)

    survival of the fittest man…

  • BCleveland3381

    Well, let’s compare our probably opening day roster with last year.

    Our starting rotation this year looks to be Colon, Wheeler, Niese, Gee, and either Montero, DeGrom, or a spring training invite like Aaron Harang or Dice K.

    Last year it was Matt Harvey, Jon Niese, Dillon Gee, Jeremy Hefner, and Shawn Marcum, who was hurt and replaced by Aaron Laffey. Losing Harvey hurts, but Colon and Wheeler in gets us close to the total production of Harvey and that Laffey, Marcum mess we had last year as long as whoever our 5th starter is can hold their own. I wouldn’t say we’re better, but for losing Harvey, this is about as good as could be expected.

    Considering Ike is still on the roster, Im counting him as part of the opening day lineup until he’s traded. So, our 1B, 2B, SS, and 3B are all the same.

    Catcher is Buck for d’Arnaud. Buck was an offensive monster in April, and terrible after. He called a good game and was solid defensively. d’Arnaud should be able to be an upgrade overall if he takes a reasonable step forward in his first full season.

    OF is where the most improvement came. Lucas Duda has become Curtis Granderson, Colin Cowgill is now Juan Lagares, and Marlon Byrd is Chris Young. Now, Marlon’s offense won’t be easy to replace, he was a top 10 offensive OF in the majors last season, but we probably have one of the best defensive OFs in the majors, which is huge when you have a team that is built around their pitching.

    Our bullpen was a mess to start the season last year. Parnell solidified the closer role for us, but everything else was a disaster. Eventually, Sandy and Terry seemed to get the ‘pen together and by the end of the year it was really good. I think with the depth of young arms we have out there, our opening day bullpen will be significantly better than last year. LaTroy Hawkins was the only significant loss. Edgin, Rice, and Parnell are back. Atchison, Lyon, and Burke are all gone and replaced by Vic Black, Familia, Reid, and some wild cards in the minors with guys like Walters, Leathersich, Mazzoni. I honestly think our ‘pen will be MUCH better than it was at the beginning of last year.

    Obviously, our team was much better at the end of the year than it was at the beginning. And as the season goes on we will make adjustments. But going off of where we were to start last year, I think this team is significantly better. How good are we? If things go badly, I think we’re a 90 loss team. If things go well, probably a .500 ceiling.

  • SRT

    Who is this and what have you done with the real Alex68? 🙂

    Happy New Year to one passionate Mets fan.

  • RyanF55

    I’ve misplaced the link but I’ll search for it. The top 5 were the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Mets and I believe the Angels/Dodgers. Looking at how I wrote that, it may be misleading. I believe it was meant more that the Mets, market wise and demographically, encompass a top 5 fan base in terms of actual number of fans their spending power. It’s difficult to quantify fanbases – you can to by ticket sales, merchandise sales etc, but when the Mets are going well, they rank in the top 5 in attendance, revenue, merchandise and online sales etc.

    Even in 2012, with the franchise in some of its darkest moments, the Mets were the 6th most valuable franchise at over 2 billion dollars and 11th in revenue at 232 million. From 2006-2008, they ranked 3rd, 3rd and 2nd in attendance, but have fallen off considerably. My statement might read incorrectly.

  • CyYout

    Another way of looking at it is they’ve replaced the completely useless Santana, Bay, and Francisco with three productive players under market value and still have $30M left over. As far as production replacement of Byrd and Harvey, I think this is the year we want our young players like d’Arnaud, Syndergaard, and Wheeler to take a step forward. We’re probably looking at another under .500 season, but my feeling is it could be the last one for a while.

  • SRT

    Actually, I think it’s opposite.

    They did not spend any of the money coming off the books, rather they spent only the ‘found’ money they got via the TV money deal.

  • RyanF55

    I agree with your solid assessment. My take is strictly the fact that this was the “big year” for spending, yet we have only replace 3/5 of the money freed up from last year. If anything, the Mets have reduced their spending yet again this year. As I’ve beaten to death, the MLB national contract deal alone could pay for nearly all of the offseason moves thus far. If you think of it in those terms, then the Mets have only replaced 4.25 of 50 million that have come off the books last off season. Obviously, we know its going to pay debts or operating expenses, but its worth noting.

  • Thanks for the quick reply dude. If you happen to find it that would be great.

  • RyanF55

    I share your optimism. I’m also aware of, and failed to mention, that there will be a need to open the wallent and pay Murphy, Parnell, Harvey, Wheeler etc. STILL, there should be funds heavily available IMO to expand this team’s talent.

  • Carl

    There was much more addition by subtraction:
    1) John BUck, he of the 85 OPS+ is gone
    2) Omar Quinanilla, he of the 70 OPS+ is gone
    3) On the bench, Cowgill, 45 OPS+ Ankiel 69 OPS+ and Baxter 60 OPS+ are all gone.

    On the mound:

    1) Shawn Marcum, he of the 1 – 10 and 5.29 era is history as is
    2) Greg Burke 0 – 3 and 5.68 era.

  • RyanF55

    Simply put, the Mets have to spend more if they want to field a competitive team in this league. 85.9 million, in New York or in Kansas City, won’t cut it. Yes, you build a strong farm, but you match it with MLB proven guys. This ownership lies and evades the truth that their finances have created complete inability to field a respectably, competitive roster.

  • RyanF55

    Ageed, certainly more addition by subtraction. My perspective was more catered to salaries and freed up finances, which the players you mentioned really didn’t command large deals, outside of Marcum’s 1 yr, 4 mil deal. But you further my argument that there’s even more money freed up and not replaced this offseason.

  • Alex68 (Ch)

    Hi SRT, THIS!

  • Charley’s Twin

    I agree with your entire first sentence except for the $30M left over part–that’s going straight to the creditors

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    So inspirational!

    Can’t wait to buy you a beer at Game 1 of the WS, at Citi Field. Heck, beers for everyone, on me!

  • Alex68 (Ch)

    Carl, awesome post…
    D’arnaud can easily hit 15+ HR and drive in 60+ RBI to compensate for Buck
    Q? Tejada should easily get back that with one eye
    Bench? we don’t have them, now we have duda, EY and Recker who should be close to all stars caliber players
    on the mound we have an ACE to replace Marcum and likely sandy will get us a good enough #5 or give the job to maybe Montero or Thor. i am utterly excited for 2014
    #SandyIsAwesome
    #LetsGoMets
    #89Wins?

  • CyYout

    I agree. I just think it’s hard to spend when you’re not one or two players away from serious contention. If those young players I mentioned, plus Lagares and Davis step up, then you know your needs are shortstop and a power outfielder. Then you can take on some salary for a big name knowing your other positions are covered. Personally, I would like to see a play for Reyes and Braun next offseason, but that’s just me dreaming.

  • RyanF55

    I agree with some of what you said, and disagree with some. I too wanted Peralta, would of gladly taken Fister, I would of taken a flyer on Corey Hart, Morales, even Cruz even though he is disgraced with a PED scandal. (He still managed 27 HR and 76 RBI. You provide a solid point in that the Free Agent class wasn’t exactly stellar, but they could have done more. They could have also entertained trades where they took on salary to bring in talent that wasn’t available in the open market. It’s premature in a sense on my part writing this article in that they can still end up signing Drew among other options.

    I disagree, however, that it doesn’t matter if payroll is 90 or 190. Only roughly 3-4 teams out of the past 13 world series champions have had “low” payrolls. It’s an anomaly that those clubs win. A 190 million dollar payroll ensures that, at the very least, there is more proven MLB talent on the roster. Do I think they should spend blindly like the Yankees every season? No, but I believe you need to be in the 105-115 million dollar payroll range to be competitive. That would mean 3-4 more quality players on the roster that the Mets would have.

  • DrDooby

    David Wright & Jon Niese will make 11 million $ more combined in 2014 than in2013 based on the structure of their contracts while arbitration (settlements)project to give Murphy, Gee, Parnell, Ike, Duda, Tejada and E.Young jr. anadditional 10+ million $ as well, so the 50 million “saved” have been spent.

    The 2014 payroll figures to be in the 90 to 95 million $ range again
    once everything is said & done and thus in the same ballpark it has been in
    2013 and 2012. With the main difference being that half of it isn´t allocated
    towards players who don´t figure to contribute in a significant way.

    That said,considering that the Mets like every other MLB franchise receive an extra 27million $ in TV money, it´s certainly more than disappointing that the extra cash will apparently be directed towards debt-payments instead of further improving the team for now.

    Likewise, a 90-million $ payroll remains ridiculous in today´s game even if one has to acknowledge that you like to keep a lot of space to grow going forward at the beginning of a hopefully extended contention cycle and the top free agent contracts signed this winter probably won´t be worth the money anyway.

    Also, if the Mets will be able to add on 20 million $ or so per year in payroll going forward from now on, assuming the product on the field improves as well and revenue starts to rise as well, they should be in a position to retain their own talent when it becomes more expensive while adding missing pieces. So, if payroll moves to 110, 130, 150 up to 170 over the next 5 years, that should allow the FO to make all the moves necessary to field a perennial contender.

    If the payroll is to remain in the 90 to 100 million range going forward then this will be an extremely difficult endeavor.

  • RyanF55

    I’m not sure if this is complete sarcasm, and if it is, it’s hilarious. In a perfect world, yes you’re right haha. In reality, I doubt that success is felt to such a degree for any of those players.

  • Charley’s Twin

    Jeff Wilpon will gladly take you up on this.

  • CyYout

    You might be right. I have no way of knowing what that money is tabbed for, but I don’t think not spending it ALL this offseason on Nelson Cruz is evidence of anything other than the front office knowing Cruz is overrated.

  • RyanF55

    Completely agree. I don’t want to hear that small market clubs are successful because a rare instance of it happening occurred recently. In 2013, with the recent and somewhat ridiculous contracts given out, anything under 100 million is a joke. The Mets, realistically, would want to be around 110-115 to even stay competitive. That would be roughly 40 million more than they currently have spent, and equal 3-4 quality players to fill gaps. If they don’t get near that, we will continue to have a lop-sided roster and a team full of minor league talent in a major league uniform.

  • RyanF55

    No problem man, thanks for the comment. As a starter, check out http://www.forbes.com/teams/new-york-mets/ and http://www.bloomberg.com/infographics/2013-10-23/mlb-team-values.html

    They give a good sense of where things stands financially which is connected to fanbase.

  • Charley’s Twin

    agreed–Cruz is not worth a big deal, financial problems or not(especially in the NL). Abreu is the one that pisses me off. I know it’s something of a risk, but way less riskier than a pitcher like Tanaka, and at 6/68, could have locked up 1st base for a long time.

  • Bayonne Mets Fan

    Oh you’re joking. You can’t fool me, lol

  • Alex68 (Ch)

    Lol…. How are you my friend… hope all is well! glad to have you back here commenting. trust me, it’s refreshing to read reality once in a while…

  • RS

    I believe that once arbitration is settled, the payroll will be slightly higher than next year – but the point remains that the Mets haven’t openened the checkbook with much ease.
    On the other hand, I agree with some here who point out the lack of available and suitable targets on which to spend.
    To me, most of the signings around the league would have been poor baseball and business decisions by the mets. The deals that don’t look bad, are still defendable non-moves (abreu is a huge risk IMO, for example).
    Another consideration is the increasing price of our current players. Ike is making close to $4 mil this year. Our pitchers will reach arbitration soon enoughm, and start commanding increased salaries. It that sense, it’s important to maintain payroll flexibility, by not signing overpriced, long-term deals. Again, the available options come into play here. Sandy needs to be more creative to improve this team without signing bad contracts. Hopefully he can come up with something…

  • Thanks Ryan.

  • Alex68 (Ch)

    Next year, we’ll have
    Wright $20
    CG $18
    Colon $11
    Niese $7

    That’s $56 on 4 players, let’s see how we put the rest with Harvey back on the mound and likely D’arnaud an All Star. Wheeler an All Star, Lagares a GG and pretty much everyone on the bullpen still relatively cheap. it seems we’ll have a good contending team cheap…. Boy i tell you, that Sandy guy is pretty good!

  • Bayonne Mets Fan

    I don’t understand. You’re starting to remind me of when Joaquin Phoenix was running around bearded during his rap hoax. Couldn’t tell if he was serious or not.

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    If this ridiculous scenario were to actually occur (presumably because all other NL teams are felled by disease), I’m sure Jeff’ll jack up prices to $50 a beer.

    Better take out some insurance on this now……

  • Alex68 (Ch)

    Wait, are you Bayonne? The real bayonne? the #COREHOF bayonne?? or some impostor

  • Bayonne Mets Fan

    I’m the real deal buddy! It’s really me! Just click on my profile and look at my past comments that should do it for you, lol. I came back yesterday after chatting with a few people about it for a few days.

  • RyanF55

    I have to agree with your points. The FA wasn’t great, but I still believe they could have done more. Even mid-level deals to players that are at least upgrades, to field a team that can contend. They could have also taken on payroll through trading with teams that would like to free up some. The verdict is still out, but the fact that they have a payroll under 90 mil, and that they haven’t replaced the money freed up yet, is disturbing to me.

  • E1Guapo

    No mention of Mejia? If he is healthy and throwing the way he has in the past I think he’s a frontrunner for #5 in the rotation. That being said a scrap heap acquisition like Dice-K would be a smart move in my opinion.

  • CyYout

    Very well put. I think some of us are more patient than others because the last of the albatross contracts have just been cleared from the payroll and we are not one or two free agents away from a championship, let alone being a perennial contender. HOWEVER, if and when our pitching coalesces into one of the best in the bigs and the Mets are knocking on the doorstep of relevance, and the Wilpons have the opportunity to put the best product possible out there and cheap out again, we will all be detractors.

  • Alex68 (Ch)

    Lol, AWESOME!!! glad to have you back buddy…. and yes, it’s me Alex, i was told to be more “positive” or else so… i have to oblige

  • MLBGM Fire TC

    Lol more positive

  • MLBGM Fire TC

    Ill have what hes having

  • Bayonne Mets Fan

    You were told to be positive or you’re going to be banned? Doesn’t that sound a lot like what happened at Metsblog? Well that’s not happening to me. I say what I honestly feel about things in my heart and that WILL NOT CHANGE. I hate the direction of this team in all ways and that’s not changing. Oh forgot one thing

    🙂

    There.

  • RS

    I agree with you. We were lead to believe in more than has actually happened so far.
    I think the team is better than the team fielded on opening day. I think this team is a at least as good as the team we had directly preceeding the trade deadline. That team was doing pretty well before we dumped byrd and buck, and before the wright injury. Unfortunately, that doesn’t look like quite enough to be competetive, unless most variables break the right way for the Mets. (i.e. TDA improves, 1B production improves, SS is resolved or Ruben performs better, we don’t suffer major injuries to key players, C Young rebounds, C Granderson rebounds, Lagares puts up league average offense and does not regress defensively, Wheeler improves his control and goes deeper into games, the young bullpen handles up to pressure…) That’s a lot of variables to contend with to be able to be in contention…

  • RyanF55

    Couldn’t agree more. If everything falls the right way for the Mets, they can be competitive. But that is what, 8 or 9 question marks? Can Tejada step up? Who’s on first? Will d’Arnaud produce? What kind of production will Chris Young bring? Will Colon hold up another year or two? Will the bullpen hold leads? Will Granderson’s game transition well to Citi? There are just endless questions…and those questions are the result of a team unwilling to spend on proven talent.

  • E1Guapo

    Perhaps season tickets this year will also come with a prescription for xanax and a free hit from an opium pipe at the gate…

  • Bayonne Mets Fan

    And maybe they’ll add Calculator Day to their list of giveaway days.

  • E1Guapo

    Jeff Wilpon doesn’t always drink beer but when he does, he prefers __(fill in the blank)__. This should provide for some good chatter…

  • Charley’s Twin

    Apple juice, with a sippy cup naturally

  • E1Guapo

    If we have another season of Ike on the Interstate there will be a “sock full of quarters” night…or maybe a “sock with a bar of soap” sponsored by Ivory…

  • ReneNYM1

    If we don’t sign Drew I’m not going to Citifield this year,this is about money,I don’t mind the negotiation tactics by Anderson either I welcome responsibility it’s just we don’t know the truth yet.What is Boras asking for and what Drew would sign for?

  • RyanF55

    He is supposedly seeking 3 years at 12+ per, which we KNOW the Mets won’t go to. Its also worth noting that 3 years, 12 mil per was the exact contract Oliver Perez got. For that sake alone, the Mets should never give a contract with identical terms hahah

  • Bayonne Mets Fan

    Nobody was a bigger fan of Ike than I am and I’m still not going to give up on him. Not yet. But I do believe a change of scenery would have been best for him.

  • Andrew Herbst

    I wouldn’t give Drew more than a 2 year deal.

  • Vin

    If they had the money, I think they would go after Tanaka. Use Davis/Duda and Tejada to get whatever they could, and combine that with Montero and others not named Thor to get the best shortstop they could. That would energize the fan base heading into Spring and make the team better long term.

    But, it seems, they are not ready to go into the season much over $90MM. I think they’ll make additions throughout the year and be good, but they are showing $ are still still a sticking point right now.

  • Joey D.

    HI Alex,

    You had me going there for a second when I saw the first sentence “D’arnaud can easily hit 15+ HR and drive in 60+ RBI to compensate for Buck” for I failed to see whom the author was and therefore was ready to say “hopefully” was more appropriate than “easily”. Then read the rest and said, hey, that guy sounds like our fearless leader! LOL.

    Have mentioned in other threads how just two more bats could possibly turn this club into becoming – on paper – a viable contender – not guaranteeing success but at least providing us a legit reason to hope. Those suggestions I made were not expensive at all and would have amounted to what, maybe $15 to $20 million more than what has been spent now – which includes CYJ, Colon and Granderson. So many refer to Choo and others without vetting deeper into the lower and non-ranked players out there. It’s too late now to acquire most of them but that didn’t mean we did not have the opportunity to pursue them or others like any other club. But we didn’t.

    That money would not have broken the back of any MLB club but if it was a case of the Mets literally being so tightly rigid in their net budget as to not having the flexibility to invest this (in baseball terms) small amount more into the team, that shows how bad the fiscal situation really is and thus we should expect nothing more but continued mediocrity since the Wilpons were bailed out by Selig which only enabled them to RETAIN ownership by a thread. It did not take into account this would not enable them to have the working capital to RETAIN A COMPETITIVE TEAM at the same time and thus the “smokescreen” (my own word) of rebuilding to hide this fact.

    Time was on the “core’s” side to show that we were correct from the beginning regarding why Sandy was hired. That is not his fault and he should not be blamed for anything other than talking down to the fan base and participating in that “smokescreen” cover-up and enforcing his belief on statistics on the organization rather than leaving it up to the baseball people to do what they want with it one way of the other.

    But his call was not to focus on the best interests of the team but to keep the Wilpons afloat fiscally as owners. Even with the argument that the Mets after 2010 weren’t good enough to upgrade and thus needed to be rebuilt, it’s one thing to see a payroll decrease when it comes to “rebuilding” but another when we see it stay at a rock bottom level when the time has come to start that upgrading once more.

    That is the only reason why the front office did not stand behind it’s players in 2011 and instead showed no faith or appreciation in them which hurt so bad that R.A. said it was hard to swallow and then the players felt kicked in the teeth in 2012 because the front office did nothing to help them when they needed bullpen help. Sterling Mets has been focused on keeping ownership of the team, resulting in Sterling Mets not being to allocate nearly anywhere close to the financial resources that are required in the business world of baseball to improve it.

    Remember, they didn’t sign their second round draft pick because they refused to go up maybe $60,000 to meet the slot allocation. Yes, that meant they could use the selection the following year, however Stankwitz’s value went from being number 75 to number 45 this year. An organization that would be petty about such a low amount is an organization in deep financial trouble and one that cannot run a major league operation in a professional manner.

  • Bayonne Mets Fan

    Everybody here talks as if signing players is the only way to improve a team. Yet this current GM has not been able to make a straight up good player/players for good player/players trade in 4 years and I don’t ever remember the Mets going 4 years without making some blockbuster or close to it-style trades. This GM doesn’t have the balls for it or was like reported on MMO last year he has trouble getting on with the other GMs and it’s hurting the organization’s ability to improve via trade (trades that don’t require move inherited stars for other team’s prospects). Steve Phillips made a ton of outstanding trades to build the late 90s/00 Mets. It was not until he started to explore the FA market more often that things started to implode

  • RyanF55

    Agreed. It’s obvious to me that payroll is clearly limited and it affects their ability to sign anybody.

  • HillsideAve

    “….when he does, he prefers that someone else is buying.”

  • Charley’s Twin

    winner

  • longsufferingmetsfan50

    Thank you for pointing this out. It’s been a source of frustration for me and my fellow Mets-fan friends all off-season. Somebody responded to me that money doesn’t win championships. Dah. I had assumed that while writing the comment to which he was responding. Spending more money guarantees NOTHING, I get it. BUT, it sure does help, and my point was the same as yours here. I.e., it’s a sin that we’ve been relegated to this small-market payroll. They have no right to charge the RIDICULOUS ticket prices they do and to cut payroll like this. It’s a rip-off, in my view. Not to mention the huge sums they get from other sources. I’m sick and tired of hearing about Madoff and the Wilpons’ losses. You know what? You can’t afford the team? Sell it. Step off. Bow out. You’re not serious owners and everyone, all your loyal fans, know it. Meanwhile, we’re all shelling out gobs of money to live in this area and to go see your triple-A teams in major league uniforms. No, I don’t live in Milwaukee. I live in NYC and I expect to see a better product at these ticket prices!

  • E1Guapo

    They should have sent him down earlier last season to AAA. I just can’t excuse the mopey body language and argument with the ump on seemingly every called strike. That didn’t help his cause, made me embarassed to be a Mets fan (and that’s a hard thing to do!), and probably cost other players borderline calls.

  • joeyd1966

    I don’t think it would’ve been wise to bring in another first baseman into the mix when we have a lo jam there already, despite none of them setting the world on fire. Hart would’ve been he guy over Morales. Morales would’ve cost another pick and doesn’t play defense or run the bases well. Not that Hart does but at 5 mil he’s the better sign.

    I wouldn’t touch Cruz at this point unless the NL adopts the DH. He’s a Latin Lucas Duda in RF. I’m actually happy with the OF, would’ve liked it better if they signed David Murphy to platoon with Chris Young in LF, leave Lagares to win the first of ten gold gloves.

    When you talk about low payroll teams or small market teams, that doesn’t apply to the Mets. It may seem that way now but a team like Tampa can’t keep a Matt Harvey, which is why it’s tough to win it all or is an anomoly if they win it all. The Mets can afford to extend their stars and still go out and acquire them as long as the team is winning so I wouldn’t worry about the payroll being low right now.

    As the team takes the next step and hopefully contends for an extended period, the players like Harvey, Wheeler, d’Arnaud etc get expensive as they improve ( Hopefully) and players are acquired the payroll will eventually go back to where it was.

    I agree they need to do more but I wouldn’t rush to do it now for a guy like Drew just because payroll seems too light right now. Who knows what they have brewing. They may not be done quite yet. I believe we’ll be in the 105-115 in the next year or so.

  • joeyd1966

    I wouldn’t have minded Abreu but I don’t know much about hi to get pissed for missing out on him. I still think we have enough to get a decent year of production from first base and may have a long term solution in Flores.

  • Stupidseasonticketholder

    It’s amazing that for a team that is worth 1.8 billion is spending 5% of that on its talent. I’m sure that that ratio is unmatched anywhere in the business world. Thanks MLB

  • Metropolitan

    The Wilpons are criminals end of tune

  • Bayonne Mets Fan

    I understand the body language can be annoying yes but also many hitters have regressed under this ridiculously stupid and misguided one-size-fits-all hitting approach. Not to mention that you are letting your competition know your offensive game plan and your beliefs. That’s not smart. These are human beings with different styles/types of bodies and reaction times. What works for one person may not work for another. Yeah let’s worry about working a count and getting deeper into pitches counts and yeah let’s work counts as if the opposing pitcher is going to cooperate. DUMB!

  • Metropolitan

    Well Piazza did not get in but his percentage has went up to 62%,he will get in eventually..as long as nothing comes out

  • RyanF55

    While he hasn’t done the blockbuster trade, he has been able to get incredible value for Beltran and Dickey – (Wheeler, d’Arnaud, Syndergaard) even though the verdict still remains to be seen on them. I agree that Sandy is scared to pull the trigger on a deal that would bring an mlb-caliber talent in instead of a prospect. I feel that his trades have been, for the most part, solid thus far.

  • RyanF55

    Nicely put and right to the point. If you can’t finance a team in NY, then don’t. Unfortunately Selig loves Freddy and didn’t pressure the team to sell, instead helping them out with loans and brought them Sandy. They don’t care that the team suffers, their pride is too much to sell and its a joke. I’m so sick of not spending because it does matter and anyone who says otherwise is crazy. Higher payroll = more players on your roster with any proven MLB worth = more talent = better odds to succeed. It’s really that simple. The farm should be a huge focus undoubtedly, but it must be matched with big FA moves as well in modern baseball to compete. Look at the Cardinals….they have a tremendous farm system but they still manage to go out and get big FAs, intelligently – Holiday, Beltran in recent years. If anything, the Mets replaced what they lost in terms of bodies, but still have not addressed the major issues that have plagued them for multiple seasons -SS, 1B, C, CP, bullpen arms, SP, CF and utility players.

  • RyanF55

    Supposedly with all assets the Mets are actually worth 2.1 billion, which further proves your point of how laughable this situation is.

  • jason bay

    I doubt we’ll be the high bidder on Diaz but wouldn’t that be a pleasant surprise? Cruz and Drew and this point are mediocre players trending downward and will cost us a potential trade chip in our 3rd rounder which is the reason we have nothing to spare in order to make trades. We gave up a ton of picks and we failed to take back another ton of picks when we had the chance. Most of the one’s we kept were spent on low ceiling and inexpensive college players who stalled, got hurt, busted or did all three.

    As for Fister I don’t see how anyone can say Detroit got nothing for him.. They got two outstanding LH pitching prospects, one for the rotation and one for the pen. One ready to go and one who should be ready in a year.

    For a team with no pitching to speak of above low A and no LH pitching at all besides Smyly and one that appears to need to back out of some big deals (Prince) in order to re-sign Cabrerra and Austin Jackson with big deals left on Verlander and Sanchez and expiring ones on Victor Martinez and Tori Hunter, I think they decided they could only sign one of Scherzer and Fister and addressed their long term future needs in a way we couldn’t have.

    Who would have been our two LHP’s, one just up with six years of team control and one in AA with the lowest WHIP I’ve ever seen. Answer, we had no match. Throw in a utility guy in Lombardozi (comp Tejada?) and there you go. How could we have matched that deal?

    You hear this every time Philly, Washington or the Braves trade for a Gio, Upton, Bourn, Pence, ect that they gave up nothing but that’s not really true.

    They gave up a fair amount and they had way more to give up than we did. The only question that can be asked is could they have done better elsewhere but it does appear that it was Major League ready, under team control for six years, LH pitching they were seeking and that is a limited commodity.

  • RyanF55

    His induction could of certainly been an up lifter to the fan base….sucks.

  • E1Guapo

    Sounds like you would like Hudgens to go as much as I would

  • E1Guapo

    Amway Genuine Draft?

  • Taskmaster4450

    I just have to laugh at all the posts and comparisons to small market teams. Guess what people, the Mets have to step up to become like most of the small market teams.

    You people do realize the Mets spent the 3rd most in payroll since the late 80s in baseball behind the Yankees and Red Sox. Of course you do because I have pointed out this fact a number of times. And what did all that spending get the Mets? 3 playoff appearances. That is it. And look at the company they Mets are keeping.

    KC 0 playoff appearances
    Wash/Mon 1
    Florida 2
    Milwaukee 2
    Baltimore 3
    Colorado 3
    NYMets 3

    Wow only 4 team were worse than the Mets in that time period.

    Now let us look at those dreaded small market teams that Met fans on here like to look down upon.

    Oakland 10 playoff appearances
    Cleveland 8
    Minnesota 7
    Houston 6
    Arizona 5 (they didnt even start playing baseball until 1998 for Pete’s sake)
    Pittsburgh 4

    So the next time any of you meatheads want to say “this isnt (insert small market team)” remember that there is a good chance that team appears in the playoff more than the Mets.

    Ergo, almost $1.75B in player salaries gets you this track record of failure and people are screaming for more spending.

    Repeat this out loud: the Mets spent the 3rd most money the last 25 years in salaries yet are tied for 5th worst in number of playoff appearances in that time. 3rd most money spend; 5th worst in playoff appearances.

    This record of ineptitude is only surpassed by the US government.

  • RyanF55

    We don’t care what they did in 1980, 1990, even as recent as 2006. In 2012 they spent 93 million. In 2013 they spent 73 million. This year we are on pace for below 90-95 million. In New York terms, that number might as well be 14 million. As fans, we know how big this market is and how much money they gross, and know that the owner’s debt is the reason they aren’t spending. When I pay 8.50 a beer and tickets are sky high, parking at 20 dollars, we have every right to want to know where our money goes…because it doesn’t go to the team. You highlight the pathetic front office ineptitude to be successful with spending money. You can look at in the reverse – How many playoff appearances have the Yankees had? How about Boston? St Louis? Teams that spend big have found success as well, if not more, than small market clubs. Arguably 9 or 10 of the past 13 world series champions have done it with big payrolls.

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    Yeah, it’s a puzzler.

    How awesome must it be as a pitcher to know you can throw a first-pitch strike without fear? And how awful must it be as a rookie Met, trying to make the most of your meager Collins-dispensed playing time, and have to go 0-1 or 0-2 before you can swing?

  • Stupidseasonticketholder

    Hey I have no problem being a small market team. 5 dollar parking. 5 dollar beers. Fair ticket prices. But I live in New York. I want Drew and Tanaka. We’ll make the playoffs. That would be a payroll of 125 million. I’ll be there opening day and for countless other games. I’m tired my season ending in July.
    But I’ll always route for the players!!!!!!!!!

  • Pedro’s Rooster

    Not quite sure of your point. Is it, “money doesn’t buy success”? “Money doesn’t guarantee success”? “Money spent by the Mets has historically been a waste”?

    I ask (respectfully, I might add) because I’m new here, and at the old place, a lot of folks would wave away the arguments to spend, simply because [insert team here] wasn’t successful when they spent money that one time.

    I think what most people are hoping for is simply a bigger budget and wiser investments. Money doesn’t guarantee anything, but it increases the chances of success, especially if it’s handled by adults who are capable of (1) building a sustainable major-league roster, (2) supplementing the roster with free agent/international signings and trades; (3) executing intelligent draft strategy; and (4) creating a minor-league system that can develop and maximize the talent they draft/acquire.

    While it’s easy to point to small-market teams and try to dismiss the money argument, the reality is that those teams probably far outpace the Mets in the areas above. A financial advantage alone (which the Mets no longer have) won’t cut it unless you’re the Yankees.

  • CyYout

    I think this proves two things. The Mets have spent very unwisely and the Braves were really good in the nineties.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Of course you dont care about the past. You dont care about the truth. You only care about if a big name is signed. That is all people like you give a crap about. You attack the Wilpons but then drink their poison. Spend spend spend.

    You want to point to winning organizations and mention spending. However, you miss one very important point: winning organizations are able to continually develop talent. You mention the Cardinals. Well they arent exactly a high spending team going over $100M only 3 times. The Braves eclipsed it twice yet were in the playoffs most of the past two decades. Ironic how the teams that are able to develop talent are able to do this.

    The Mets on the other hand spent decades doing neither. They spent big money with no results and developed even less talent. And teams with big payrolls usually end up that way because guys are developed and end up getting huge contracts. That is what happens when you develop talent. Of course, as a Met fan we arent to accustomed to that only seeing Wright and Reyes get huge contracts since they are the only long term talent developed by the Mets since Hundley. The Red Sox you mentioned had guys like Pedroia, Lester, Ellsbury, and Bucholtz all making more than everyone but Wright this season. It happened with the Phillies with Rollins, Utley, Howard, and Hamels. SF saw their payroll increase with Lincecum, Cain, Posey, and Panda.

    And where do you get $72M last season? The Mets payroll last years was $92M.

  • Taskmaster4450

    The Braves havent been so bad in the 2000s either.

  • RyanF55

    72 was a typo and 92 is still pathetic as a payroll. “The Red Sox you mentioned had guys like Pedroia, Lester, Ellsbury, and Bucholtz all making more than everyone but Wright this season.” ….And they just won the World Series, and have won it 3 times in the past ten years. But yeah, spending never works right?

    Just to fill you in, here are the past five World Series champions and their payrolls:

    2013 Red Sox: 150,655,500
    2012: Giants: 117,620,683
    2011: Cardinals: 105,433,572
    2010: Giants: 97,828,833
    2009 Yankees: 201,449,289

    The average championship payroll over the past five seasons is $134,459,575. Don’t tell me spending has nothing to do with winning. If you do it WISELY, it is far better than not spending. I don’t care they Oakland fielded good teams in the late 80s and early 90s. I don’t care that Cleveland made double digit post seasons over that time period, never winning the World Series. What I care about is the game today, and TODAY, any payroll under 115 million is A JOKE. Chris Young batted .200 and is making 7.25 million. In 2013, a 85.9 million dollar payroll is comparable to 50 million just a few years prior.

  • Taskmaster4450

    My point is very simple. For 25 years the Mets had a simple model they were following: spend their way to success. This started when the guys from the 80s teams started departing and we saw the likes of Coleman and Bonilla brought in. The Mets were after the “big splash” which equals season ticket sales. This organization did not go cheap when it came to spending money in salaries as evidenced by being out spent by only 2 other teams in that same times period. However, when you look at the results, the Mets are near the bottom of baseball when it comes to making the playoffs.

    Hence those people who are advocating more spending are asking for the same insanity to take place. The teams that are continually surpassing the Mets, ie Atlanta, Washington, and now even Pittsburgh, are more adept at developing talent. This is an area the Mets were pathetic in over the last 20 years. Now that the organization is focused in this direction, the fans are wanting them to spend more money on post 30 year old guys who will break down before their contracts are over.

  • RyanF55

    Haha…exactly.

  • Nolrog

    >>> Of course you dont care about the past. You dont care about the truth.The past 25 years also ignores the fact that Wilpons haven’t been the sole owners in that whole time, so the comparison isn’t really meaningful (and that is the truth). And, really, who cares what they sepnt in 1980. It’s irrelevant to what they are spending now.

  • Taskmaster4450

    If you were only concerned about the game today and what is happening now, you would realize how your screaming for more spending is even more asinine than ever before.

    Did you notice what happened to FA the past few years? The talent pool keeps getting worse. Look at the names and the contracts handed out. Where is the 2004 version of Carlos Beltran, a player about to enter his prime? He doesnt exist. Why not? Because players of that magnitude are signing extensions. So you want more money spent? On what? Would you prefer the Mets had BJ Upton roaming in Cf at $15M a year? Or how about Hamilton in RF who didnt give much more than Lucas Duda type numbers? Yet people on here complain about a $7.25M chance on Young requiring a bounce back season. What do you think that is needed for Upton and Hamilton and at a much higher price if they dont pull it off?

    Once again, you care little about talent. You just want the payroll to be in excess of a certain figure and that is all you care about. It matters none that the player typically acquired fall way short of their contracts. Crawford was signed to a big contract, sucked for two years in Boston, was traded and now the Dodgers, a team with huge cash, wants to unload him. Werth got a huge contract, sucked for two years, and now is a decent player at 35 and owed $80M. Or please, would you prefer the financial obligation of ARod. He makes big money and would put the Mets well above the $100M.

    The joke is believing that any team can have any success in baseball these days by trying to buy it. George spend 15 year trying to do that from the late 70 until the early 90s without success. The Mets tried to do it for 2.5 decades without success. Yet you want to do it.

    And for the best part….you proved my point.

    The Cardinals and Giants are two of the best organizations in the game at developing talent. Look at the rosters of their WS teams and look at all the players who are making money after success with them. Wainwright, Molina, Pujols, Carpenter, Poset, Lincecum, Cain, Panda, etc.. And of course the Yankee nucleus of Jeter, Pettite, and Rivera were mainstays in their title runs (and if you want to focus upon ’99 credit Soriano who allowed them to get ARod).

    Finally, you can throw out all the average of the WS winners over the past 5 years. How about all the teams who didnt win the WS who spent more than that? You seem to ignore them. How about the LAA? The Tigers? The Dodgers? The Rangers? The Phillies? The Mets as recently as 2011? You seem to think that money solves the problems and teams should just set a payroll number and it means winning. It doesnt.

    And what difference does it make what Young is making? Pelfrey had an ERA over 5 and is making $5.5M. Edwin Jackson went 8-18 with a 4.98 ERA and is making $13M. It just goes to show there are some potential turds in the FA market.

    What is a JOKE is spending the 3rd most money and having the 5th worst success rate in the game. That is a JOKE and to believe that following the same course of action in Flushing will suddenly change something.

    25 years is not a small sample size.

  • Peter

    Really? 29.25? Ohhhh you forgot to add the Arb numbers. Yes they count against payroll and is money they have to spend, smart teams always weigh the Srb numbers for their players for flexibility like Atlanta, Tampa, Oakland, St. Louis, you know teams that win. So if they are gonna be around 90 to 95 mill, which they will be at least at 90, well then they added more like the 50 mill that came off!!! LOL

  • Charley’s Twin

    Nobody is saying blindly spend money. Some of us are mighty sick of playing accountant for the Wilpons. They charge top flight prices to see the games? That’s their right, it’s a free country. But put a MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL TEAM on the field.

    i also noticed you left St. Louis off the list. They seem to be pretty good at developing talent for the future while competing now. That’s because having to choose between winning now and developing the farm is a complete red herring.

  • Taskmaster4450

    True they havent been the sole owners but they were running the show since the early 1990s when they started the process of screwing Doubleday out of the team.

  • Taskmaster4450

    St Louis? The team that has been developing talent for decades? Yes you can put a winning team on the field while developing the farm when you have players stepping in. The Cards lose Pujols yet still go on to the playoffs and WS without him. What have the Mets done? Hell Moise Alou went down and they didnt even have someone to replace him.

    So without a farm, a team must buy players, something that is more difficult with the new CBA since the top players arent free agents. Really, other than Cano this season, who is a top flight free agent? The oft injured Ellsbury? A guy who cant hit lefties in Choo?

  • E1Guapo

    Have I told you about the fabulous line of Amway products today?

  • boraswannabe

    Since you’re trying to generalize, I’ll generalize. You’re confusing the issue with poor spending.

  • Taskmaster4450

    When a team has a 25 year track record of poor spending, I do not believe you can conclude there is any other type of spending.

  • jason bay

    LOL

  • jason bay

    That’s not really true.

    Steve Phillips made quite a number of bad trades starting right from the beginning of his tenure up until the end.

    Carl Everett for John Hudek, Jason Isringhausen for Billy Taylor, Jason Bay for Middlebrooks and DeJean, Nelson Cruz for Jorge Velandia, plus the infamous Mo Vaughn, Roberto Alomar, Jeremy Burnitz, Shawn Estes, Jeff D’Amico disasters.

    The two trades he is best known for were the Leiter (AJ Burnett) and Piazza (Preston Wilson) salary dump deals with the marlins but those are more of the business of baseball type trades than even stephen swaps.

    When it came to those he was repeatedly bent over, I mean look at all those future All Stars he traded for crap plus he inherited most of the players who did anything (other than the salary dumps)

    Rick Reed, Fonzie, Olerud, Ordonez, Payton, Agbayani……

    Inherited players, Salary dumps, the owners checkbook, trading the farm he was good at, the rest, not so good although he did draft or sign four future All stars in Reyes, Wright, Gomez and Kazmir and left one undisturbed in the farm system in Heath Bell so he wasn’t completely horrendous.

  • jason bay

    The Hampton trade was a very good one. Very similar to the Santana situation.

    Phillips also tried to trade for Griffey Jr, and Larkin but they wouldn’t agree to extentions at the deadline

    Melvin Mora for Mike Bordick was another stinker and yet another All Star he traded away. Plus he brought back Bobby Bonilla who gets 1.2 m a year on July 1st.

    No question that comes right off the top of the July 2nd IFA signing bonus money..

  • There is actually more evidence that you have to be in the top third of payroll to win a World Series than there is that oh you simply build though the draft. Like most things in life, it’s not a one or the other. It’s a both and. We have to build the farm but also not be in new York, own our own network, and be in the bottom third of payroll.

    The last line of this article was most damning, we have spent money for the first time in a lil’ while and it still might not replace what we have lost from 2013 to 2014. If we heavily regress for another season under Alderson, the fan base might die.

  • Bayonne Mets Fan

    First of all i hate talking to you because i think you’re insane and you do nothing but incessant 2nd guessing so that’s that. This will be the final time i respond to you. Second of all once you said the Jason Bay trade was a bad trade that’s all anybody needs to know about you. As if Met Nation went nuts when Bay was traded around 2002 and that’s if anybody knew who the hell he was. You’re the same guy that also laments the trade of Carlos Gomez…..AFTER he’s had a good year this year and after other teams traded him as well. You’re a disgrace. Do not ever respond to me again because i think you are a complete nutcase.

    Now about Steve Phillips and I will address this as a response for the people that read this and not the person who answered who ONLY listed some moves that didn’t work out, which happens to all GMs…kind of like the current one where most of his moves stink.

    Here is a complete list of every single move Steve Phillips made when he BUILT the 1998-2001 New York Mets mainly via trade.

    http://seamheads.com/2010/09/07/steve_phillips_v_omar_minaya/

    Naturally the miscreant leaves out the nice trades for Dennis Cook, Turk Wendell, signing of Todd Pratt and on and on and on.

    It is true. It DID happen.

    Steve Phillips DID build a winner (relatively speaking when it comes to the Mets)

    So any remark that it’s not true is simply a flat out lie. But we all know what this guy is all bout and jason bay/tagee is a perpetual LIAR who cherry picks moves from different eras totally unrelated to one another in order to make his crazy arguments. He has his own revisionist history, has been confronted with that time and time again and he still does it as if nothing ever happened. This person is nuts and second guessing style arguments like his would be annihilated in a real time debate in less then 5 minutes. The only way his style of expression can work is via typing. It won’t work in real life. Second guessing different eras that have nothing to do with each other will get shot down in no time at all in real life

  • Bayonne Mets Fan

    oh and i forgot one little thing. David Wright and Jose Reyes were acquired under Phillip’s watch.

    Of course this “thing” known as t agee/jason bay does not share this with the readership. New people here beware of this habitual second guesser. Can’t wait until the Metsblog crew gets a handle on this guy..and they will.

  • Captain Clutch

    HI Bayonne, so good to see you back here! 🙂 Best bet is to ignore the likes of Jason bay and Captain america who exist to bait you

  • Bayonne Mets Fan

    I will in the future Capt. Clutch but i’m not gonna sit here and have some nut tell me what i said isn’t true and respond with selective information. That is sooo dishonest and he’s been getting away with it here for years. But no more. I can’t stand that guy and hopefully the new crew from Metsblog will catch on to his incessant second guessing/revisionist history ways and take up the slack putting this thing in it’s place.

    Anyway thanks for your kind email the other day.

  • Captain America

    Spend spend spend

    Lose lose lose

    Time to win

  • Captain Clutch

    Right, everything you said but getting your self banned over the likes of him isn;t worth it! We enjoy having you back too much -and you have so much more to offer- don’t waste your efforts on someone who’s only goal is to make you lose it! you were inducted into the hall of fame, after all

    #COREHOF

  • Tacohow

    Spend wisely

    Win

  • joeyd1966

    Knowing Dombrowski’s penchant for always making the right move, you’re probably right about the return for Fister. I still think the Mets could’ve matched that without taking much away from the future. Fister still has another year of control and is one of the most underrated pitchers in the game. That’s the kind of veteran starter you bring in and then could’ve used Colon’s money elsewhere.

  • jason bay

    All we need are a couple more Mo Vaughn’s and Jason Bay’s and we’ll be just fine.

  • jason bay

    No one’s saying that Charley but that’s what they mean because the only solution the spend, spend, spend crowd ever has us to spend some more on whoevers still left in free agency.

    You hear it every day here. The last couple years they were screaming over not spending and now that we have the complaint us we haven’t spent enough.

    It goes like this. “For all those signing that we did make to pay off we need to make two more signings.”

    If that isn’t advocating to spend just for the sake of spending than nothing is.

  • jason bay

    Exactly right Task,

    St Louis has sold high on JD Drew, Adam Kennedy, David Freese and let go FA Carlis Beltran and Albert Pujols and it hasn’t stopped them one bit.

    Last year they had practically no one on their post season roster that hadn’t spent a couple years in their farm system.

    Next up Oscar Tavares to join Carlos Martinez, Shelby Miller, Dan Wacha, Trevor Rosenthal, Joe Kelly, Lance Lynn, Mike Adams, Alan Craig, John Jay, Tadirr Molina, Kolton Wong, David Carpenter…..

    No Jason Bay’s, Oliver Oerez’, Luis Castillo’s, Moises Alou’s, Chris Carter’s, GMJ’s, Scott Schoenweiss, Tim Redding, JJ Putz’s for them.

    Must suck to be a Cardinal Fan

  • jason bay

    Well said Task

  • vigouge

    In 2013 they spent 73 million.

    If you have to resort to making things up you’ve already lost the argument.

  • DrDooby

    Indeed spending recklessly doesn’t guarantee anything. The free agent market is getting thinner by the day and it costs more & more to land the few select impact players on it – mostly at absurd costs that are bound to turn the backend of most contracts into albatrosses.

    Which doesn’t mean that teams can’t sacrifice a draft pick on occasions or spend money on a couple of solid veteran players.

    But Jhonny Peralta, a good offensive SS who probably will have to shift elsewhere is a good example. A team like the St.Louis Cardinals in the middle of a massive WS contention window and a stacked upper levels farm system can afford to overpay for a complementary piece like Peralta who might be the one difference between flag or no flag and 94 wins or 92 wins.

    The window for the Mets hasn’t even opened yet, overpaying for Peralta would have been dowright foolish. Odds are, by 2016 he’s no longer a decent enough SS and the albatross risk is huge. By then the Mets may just be entering the primes of high end pitchers and may need expensive veteran complementary pieces.

  • Fonzie

    St Louis, Boston and the Yanks developed their nucleus. The Msts have always tried to acquire pieces from four other teams nucleus and develope one home grown if their lucky. Alfonzo, 90’s, Wright and Reyes 2000’s. That’s all she wrote in that department.

  • Fonzie

    Spending only works when you develope talent. The teams you keep mentioning have all developed a core and made additions through trades and FA signings. The Mets spent big in the past but had no home grown talent to put it around. Wright and Reyes were not enough. That’s what Taskmaster is trying to say.

  • Fonzie

    We haven’t done both since the 80’s. That’s the whole point. Alderson is at least trying to build a young controllable cost efficient team so when it comes time to add a big bat we can. Spending on a Drew for the sake of spending doesn’t add much more than a win or two and will only be smart for one year, two tops but even that is not too appetizing.

  • Destry

    Within the $50million that came off the books, you have to account for David Wright’s salary going from $8mil to $20mil, Murphy going from $3mil to most likely $6mil, Tejada 500k to $1+mil, Duda from 500K to $2+mil, Young Jr. 500k to $2+mil, Niese 3mil to 5mil, Gee 500k to $4mil. That’s $24mil in raises. Looking at money coming off the books as automatic addition to offseason spending is a rather short sighted, and very elementary way of looking at offseason budget and payroll as a whole.

  • Destry

    D Wrights extension kicks in as well, so he gets a $12million raise.

  • Destry

    No, it means we should be “spending in player evaluation & development. He haven’t drafted or developed well in a long time. We had 3 1st RD picks, and drafted Ike Davis, Bradley Holt & Reese Havens on year. 0-3. You can’t have a draft like that.

    – A. Heilman, L. Milledge, P. Humber, M. Pelfrey, K. Mulvey, E. Kunz, I. Davis, R. Havens, B. Holt, S. Matz, M. Harvey, B. Nimmo, G. Cecchini, D. Smith.

    There is a near certain chance that not a single one of our 1st RD picks of the last 12 years plays a single game for the Mets in 2014, and there is a very real possibility that there is only one above average player in the entire group, IF Harvey comes back strong from his surgery.

  • JustSomeInternetGuyYouDontKnow

    How is going from 11M-20M a $12M raise? Even if you count deferment it’s 8M to 17.5M. Still a lot but not 12M

    They really are wasting his prime…

  • blaiseda

    Totally agreed. We also have to look at the future. If Harvey, Wheeler, and Thor all turn out to be as great as Harvery has already been… then we are going to be dropping some serious coin to lock all three into contracts in the near future. In the interim there’s Gee , Parnell and others to possible lock in as well. This is the payroll flexibility that Sandy is talking about… he wants to be able to retain the talent that it appears the Mets have built up in the last few years so we can be more like the Braves have a team that year after year plays meaningful games in Sept.

  • Destry

    Sure are. I didn’t look it up, and I thought he took a low salary of $8mil last year, is due a $12mil raise, but I must’ve remembered it incorrectly. Guess it was $12mil with an $8 mil raise. Either way, doesn’t change the original point of my post.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    David himself sacrificed his prime.

    He measured the risk of having a sub-par walk year with the chances of getting the fattest contract with the best club available.

    Its his own fault that he is stuck with the Mets.

    David would’ve been a free-agent after this season..

    Its likely the Dodgers, who just signed Juan Uribe to play 3B this year, would’ve been in play to land David

    not to forget the Yankees…who might need a 3B i the league cancels out A-Rod’s contract…

    and lets not forget the Red Sox….coming off a WS and their payroll might get lower now…

    David took the safe route.

    Now he has to lay in his bed

  • Just_Da_damaja

    Nope, what we need are a few more Brandon Nimmo’s..

  • Just_Da_damaja

    so isnt that what we did by spending 27,5 mil on Chris Young and Bartolo Colon?

  • Just_Da_damaja

    yet u advocated selling low on David Wright in 2011

    than quickly changed positions once he had a good season.

  • Taskmaster4450

    I agree Dr, there are times when making a move is sensible and others when it isnt. Everyone feels that the “Yankee” approach is the model for success. Sure it worked in the Bronx but seems to be less and less successful. Many feel that the Yankees pulling out the checkbook once again righted their ship. Personally, I disagree. However, it makes sense for them since they really have no other option. Their minor league system is bare about A ball. Nevertheless, the Yankees, even with all their spending, still have a bunch of ‘ifs’ entering the season.

    A team like the Cardinals does it right. They are consistently in the playoff mix and insulate themselves from the ups and downs of the FA market. This is what a team can do when its farm is placing a few guys on the major league roster each season. The Mets are still working towards that point. Last season we saw Wheeler, Satin, Lagares, TdA and German all make their major league debuts with the Mets and they are all expected to be a big part of the 2014 team. Couple that with Harvey, Familia, and Edgin from the year before, and you see 7 guys who most likely will break camp with the Mets (8 if Harvey wasnt injured). We also can look forward to the fact that Flores (most likely), Centeno, Noah, Montero, and Puello will be starting out in Vegas and all should see time in NYC in 2014.

    This is how a minor league system should be. Turn on the spigot and watch the stream of talent flow towards the majors year in and year out.

  • jason bay

    Fister will make 15 M over the next two years so only about 5 M of his check would be retained.

    Fister is obviously a far better choice on the baseball field and will allow Washington to either re-sign him or get a supplemental round draft pick. Would have been a great move for us.

    Looking at Detroits needs that we could have help fill you have catcher (TDA, Plaweicki) and 2B (Murphy, Flores, Herrera), corner OF (Puello, Vaughn) and bullpen (Familia, Mejia, Walters, Black, Edgin, Kolerak)

    Now you got to find a match that we can live with and Detroit likes better than what they took from Washington To me the closest I would want to go for two years (remember he’s a FA with a choice after 2 years) would be Vaughn, Edgin, Kolerak and I don’t see that as a better deal than what they took.

    You could of course go higher by adding a guy like Plaweicki, Flores, Puello or even TDA or add a Familia or mejia to the deal above but for two years of Fister it is not worth it to me.

  • Alex68 (Ch)

    Would have been a great move for us.” “two years of Fister it is not worth it to me.”

    and TWO years of colon is awesome…. Got it…

  • jason bay

    One only needs to see how many times you have been banned from this site alone to realize just exactly who is insane.

    Your statement was about how many good trades Phillips made when the vast majority of them were future all Stars for players who sucked.

    The only exceptions were salary dump deals Phillips was able to execute because he A) inherited a low payroll and B) inherited some prospects to deal.

    Even the Wendell, McRae, Mel Rojas deal was originally discussed with the Cubs by Joe Mcilvaine and executed shortly after Phillips was hired but that was a salary dump as the Cubs just wanted to get rid of Rojas who blew numerous games for us (5.03 and 6.15 ERA as a Met while making 4.5 M a year a decade and a half ago)

    Trading for Rojas led directly to re-acquiring Bobby Bonilla who sucked as well and we are now paying 1.2 M a year for 25 years..

    McRae was nothing special either and Cook was yet another salary dump deal who had one good year (2.38) and two and a half bad ones (3.86, 5.34, 4.53) but I suppose that would qualify as one of Phillips best deals as at least he didn’t trade away a future All Star for a blithering idiot.

  • jason bay

    I like the idea of having 3 CFer’s at Citi Field in Lagares, Young and Granderson and I also like that they can all run the bases and drive the ball.

    Colon for 2 years and no draft pick is not a bad investment either.

    Had they not made those signings the complaints about “not doing anything” would have been re re raised. Now the complaints are about not signing Choo, Cruz and Ervin Santana I suppose.

    LOL

  • jason bay

    Except for the fact that I specifically mentioned that Phillips got us four future All Stars (Reyes, Wright, Kazmir and Carlos Gomez) and left one he inherited (Heath Bell) in the minors.

    Nice revisionism.

  • jason bay

    Where did I saw that “two years of Colon is awesome.”

    I was responding to someone who said Washington “gave up nothing” for Fister which isn’t true at all. I then speculated on what a comparable package would have cost us.

    Since we don’t have any LHP’s in general and I wouldn’t want to give up Niese and Matz which would the most direct comp to what Detroit got, I speculated on how else we could have obtained Fister.

    Probably cost us something along the lines of Plaweicki, Montero and either Tejada or Tovar. That to me isn’t worth two years of Fister.

    Colon cost nothing to obtain so in our teams timeline fits us a lot better and unlike Washington, we probably cannot afford to extend Fister and he is a risk to get hurt too. Less so than colon obviously but we didn’t give up Plaweicki, Montero and Tejada/Tovar for him.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    Well considering that Chris Young has been riding the pine more than the ball the last few years, why would u pay him 7.5 mil when we could pay Byrd 8 mil and get a starter.

    No wait.

    Sandy said he foresaw using Byrd as a 4th OF.

    5:39 pm: ”We didn’t have extensive discussions with Marlon,” Mets GM Sandy Alderson said in Orlando on Tuesday. “It wasn’t a place where we were prepared to be aggressive.”

    11:43 am: The Mets were valuing Byrd as a fourth outfielder, which made a return unlikely

    So the mets paid Oakland’s 4th OF to be a starter and passed up on their best power hitter last year because they thought he was a 4th OF

    LMAOOOO

  • Just_Da_damaja

    i doubt they will draw that much. and if they are as uninteresting in June as they were in July of last year, their fans will stop coming earlier and earlier in the year.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    “Had they not made those signings the complaints about “not doing anything” would have been re re raised.”

    NOPE

    they could’ve taken the 17.5 mil they spent on those 2 bums and gotten..

    Peralta for 15.5 mil
    Hawkins for 1.5 mil
    a veteran backup catcher for 1 mil

    and actually filled positions of need rather than wasting money.

    that would result in a better team, with more wins, that bring in more fans that bring in more money that bring in the capacity to get more players.

    the mets instead did exactly what u complained they always do

    spending for the sake of appeasing fans.

  • jason bay

    Whenever I see LMAOOOO used in support of an opinion I realize that I am dealing with someone who can’t back an opinion with anything of substance.

    Let me add some to this discussion.

    The Mets have two ways to improve.

    1) VS RHP where last year they were 33-48. (Vs. LHP they were 25-26) and

    2) At home where they were 33-48 (41-40 on the road)

    When you look at Marlon’s (’13) splits they run counter to where we need to improve.

    Home: .257/.301/.425
    Road: 325/.368/.594

    Vs. RHP: ..268/.318/.480
    Vs. LHP: 344/.376/.583

    That’s where Granderson comes in as a LH bat with speed.

    Career splits for Granderson:

    Vs. RHP .274/.357/.519
    Vs. LHP .226/.295/.409

    Granderson/Byrd was a flip flop in platoon splits while adding better speed and defense and the LH bat a better add for this team on into the future than a RH one with Lagares, Puello and Vaughn. Hence that 18 M was put into Granderson.

    Now it does no good to increase winning percentage Vs. RHP or at home if we give it up Vs. LHP or on the road where we are already at .500 and that is where Young on a one year deal comes in with Puello and Vaughn in the wings.

    Career splits for Young.

    Vs. RHP ..225/.295/.415
    Vs. LHP 262/.363/.474

    That triple slash vs. LHP is about what I expect out of Byrd this year even playing in CBP so that has been replaced assuming Young performs.

    We have also added better OF defense and stolen bases to our lineup as Young and Granderson (in a pinch) can play CF if Juan goes down (as he did in the DWL) or doesn’t hit as MDD was the only logical in house option at CF as he’s an EXTREME risk.

    I also don’t expect Marlon to repeat his .353 BABIP mark in 2014 as he got a lot GB’s through the SS-3B hole last year and that might not be the case this year.

    I would not have minded re-signing Byrd but adding speed, OF defense and a LH bat in Granderson is a better alternative than adding say Byrd and Murphy or McClouth on 1-2 year ones and forget about Choo or Ellsbury on 7 year deals.

    Whether it’ll work or not remains to be seen but at least that was thinking IMO behind the signings of CG and CY and the non re-signing of Byrd.

  • RyanF55

    How about we let Thor, Wheeler, d’Arnaud and Lagares prove their worth before we talk about big money, long-term extensions. I absolutely hope your right that they are deserving, but nobody has a clue yet. That said, I totally see both your points and you guys make good sense with. Still, even with locking those players up, the Mets will need to spend on top of that.

  • jason bay

    I would have like LaTroy back and a guaranteed 2.5 M isn’t a big expenditure for the safety net he provides but……….

    What makes you think Peralta would have wanted to come here? Would he have been just another guy on PED’s that you claim you didn’t want had we signed him?

    Would he have even come here for 4/52 as he did St. Louis? St. Louis is the defending NL champions you know. Were the Mets ALL THAT more attractive a choice or would it have taken 5/65 to land him?

    How would he have helped us Vs. RHP (which is our severe Achillies heel) more than Granderson?

    Which veteran catcher should we have signed? AJ because the defending World Series Champions can’t be considered an attractive destination, now can they?

    Salty for 3 years? McCann for 85 M? Who are you talking about here? Soto? Navarro? Nieves? Torrealba? Buck? Shoppach? Blanco? Hernandez?, Quintero? McHenry? Olivo?

  • jason bay

    So you were good with the “what OF?”

    Who knew.

  • joeyd1966

    With all of the young pitching we have coming through the pipeline, I would’t even consider resigning Fister. I’d give him a QO and take the pick. I don’t think we’d have to part with Murphy in that deal or any of our better offensive prospects. Lombardozzi is nothing special.

    You make sound points about the arms we would have to give up. I have no problem trading minor league relievers though. I don’t know what it would’ve taken from us to get him, I don’t even know f Sandy or too many other teams knew he was on the block. I still think he could’ve gotten more for Fister from somebody.

  • jason bay

    He did better than it appears at first glance and LHP from both sides of the mound was clearly what he was after although a catcher would have given him pause as might an OFer.

    Maybe Matz and Plaweicki do it but that is too much for me as your talking 12 years compared to two and we’re not just one player away. We still need to get a long term impact SS and LH hitting corner OFer and continue evaluating another dozen young players between AA and the Majors.

  • joeyd1966

    I wouldn’t think we would have to give up a catcher since they didn’t get one back but who knows. I wonder how many teams even knew Fister was available. I heard not one rumor regarding Fister.

  • jason bay

    Yeah it was pretty under the radar but so was the Prince deal. Pitching below the Majors is a deep concern for Detroit but so are young cost controlled players. I get the feeling that Detroit can’t support that payroll and they have Miguel, Scherzer and Austin Jackson coming up.

    Catcher, corner OF and LHP are Detroits needs and they got two controllable LHP’s.

    We couldn’t offer that but we could have offered one albeit 3 years away (if ever) and a pretty good catching prospect two years away.. Not sure if Detroit would have wanted to wait that long but I wouldn’t have wanted to pay that much anyway.

  • DrDooby

    Well, he happens to play for his favorite team as a kid and has the chance to be a career-long player here with the option of becoming a “team legend” and borderline Hall of Famer as a Met. So, nothing wrong with signing the extension last winter for him.

    And nothing wrong with the Mets giving him a contract that looks more & more team friendlier by the day, compared to richer contracts signed by similar or even lesser players this winter.

    And now it´s up to the FO & ownership to provide the necessary talent – by whatever avenue – to surround Wright with a good team. Even the team with the best player in Baseball, OF Mike Trout, finished below .500 in 2013, so no 1-man-show can turn around a Baseball team. Matt Harvey had a great 2013 season and ended up with 9 wins and his team with a 13-13 record in games he started.

    The next winning Mets team will happen because of a strong pitching staff. That puts our hope on the shoulders of Zack Wheeler, Jennry Mejia, Rafael Montero and eventually Matt Harvey, Noah Syndergaard and others. With the good part being that there are options. If 2 of these 5 end up as studs going forward and another one is very solid too, that´s the core for a long term contender. Unlike in the past, there are multiple options in the lottery for now. And the bullpen is loaded with a plethora of young / upside arms as well. So, again, if Vic Black & Jeurys Familia bust, you have a bunch of options to go with instead going forward, say, Cory Mazzoni & Jeff Walters for e.g.

  • DrDooby

    Actually that´s true. The more “Nimmos” you have, the better the odds that one of them has a massive breakout and becomes an elite prospect & eventually impact major leaguer.

    If you´re only shooting for the next Daniel Murphy or Joe Smith, the odds for a solid complementary piece may be higher, but the odds for an impact player much lower.

    As for Nimmo, here´s a little excerpt from Keith Law´s chat yesterday. Law isn´t exactly known as a huge Mets fan in general:

    >>
    tom (nj)
    is it too soon to call brandon nimmo a bust?

    Mitch (Udel)
    Nimmo going to be a solid OF in the big’s one day or just be a poor man’s Roy Hobbs with the country-boy story?

    Klaw
    (1:44 PM)

    Those showed up back-to-back. Why in God’s name would you label Nimmo a bust? I think he’s at least an average regular with a chance for more. Bear
    in mind that Savannah is a terrible place to hit – he had a huge h/r split this year – and he came into pro ball with less baseball experience than the typical US HS kid.

    <<

  • RyanF55

    I love you mentioned in a prior comment the failures of LAA, Detroit, Texas, Philly….are you kidding me? Those teams have had perennial playoff stretches while spending. Philly won in 08, went to the WS again in ’09, and appeared in the playoffs four straight years. Texas has also been to multiple WS, and though they didn’t win one, got there and have sustained along stretch of playoff appearances. LAA has had two horrendous signings – Hamilton and Pujols which have sunk their payroll, after a long run of playoff appearances. Detroit whom also hasn’t won it all have been to two world series since ’06 and have had multiple playoff runs and successful seasons. These teams all competed, and that’s what I desperately want the Mets to do.

    You have an inability to understand a notion of both spending and building through the farm. Its alright to do both. If you solely do only one, you won’t win in this league with any consistency. The Mets need to build the farm, yes, but they also need to spend. We have a laughable SS right now. 1B is a complete question mark. We have Mike Recker backing up Travis d’Arnaud behind the plate. We have multiple question marks in the bullpen. We don’t have a veteran to compete with Mejia (compete with Mejia? Like we can have any faith in him staying healthy)
    We can’t sign Corey Hart to compete for the 1B job on an incentive deal? We can’t bring in Arroyo to fill out the back end and provide another crucial arm? We can’t sign Hawkins to a 2.25 million dollar contract to provide stability in a young and unproven bullpen? What do you suppose we do, fill those needs through he draft? Suck for another 3 years and hope the 17 question marks we have pan out?

    I agree that building the farm is completely crucial, but only if you have people in place that know what the hell they’re doing. And the same goes for money…if you spend wisely, you can absolutely improve the club, instantly. The Mets have proven they can’t do either. I want to see home grown talent all over this team, but you need to match it with quality FAs to round out the team.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    “What makes you think Peralta would have wanted to come here?”

    I think Granderson, Colon and Young could’ve found a better chance to win a WS with some other teams.

    Why did they choose the Mets?

  • jason bay

    It’s obvious,

    A ton more OFer’s and pitchers in the FA market this year. Not all of them were going to contenders.

    SS’s were few and far between and could go wherever they wanted

  • Taskmaster4450

    No chief. I understand the notion of doing both at the same time very well. The ones who seem to have a problem with it were the Wilpons who only focused their attention on the bog league club and overlooked the minors for decades. Then, when they focused upon the minors, they only did so because there was no money.

    So tell me how do you do both when a team has no money?

  • RyanF55

    Let me describe how this works, chief. They hire a GM, and the GM and his staff make these decisions. Their mistake was hiring staff that were incapable of doing both. The Wilpons don’t have a clue how to acquire and sustain talent, they only know how to write checks to somehow who they hope does. The GM is the sole person responsible for the team’s farm strength…you think Freddy goes in during the draft and picks players, or moreover tells the GM to not focus on the farm? Please.

    You also asked me to tell you how they can do both when the team has no money? That’s my entire point. They’ve spent 29.25 million where this team needs about 100 million dollars worth of talent upgrades. The scope of this article was to highlight that this team hasn’t spent the way it needs to. The work their doing in the farm is tremendous but their inability to spend cripples the team. You can’t do both when the team has no money, and that’s my entire issue with this team. If you can’t pony up the NY-status cash to field a MLB team, then sell and get the F out.