MLB: Drug Dealers Welcome

bosch 60 minutes

Last night, 60 Minutes aired an interview with Anthony Bosch, founder of former South Florida anti-aging clinic Biogenesis.

During the interview (which I admittedly chose not to watch), I have read that Bosch admitted to injecting Rodriguez with PED, an allegation that conveniently came to fruition after Major League Baseball apparently took over paying for Bosch’s legal fees.

Now, I want to stop right there.

Put your anger toward Alex Rodriguez to the side. He’s a baseball player, a very unlikable baseball player who also happens to play for a team many people reading this despise.

But Anthony Bosch is a drug dealer. This is an undisputed fact. He didn’t just deal drugs to Alex Rodriguez or the other few names who were suspended last season. According to the same whistle blower Porter Fischer – Bosch was working with athletes from the NBA, NCAA, Tennis, MMA, boxing, soccer to name a few. He wasn’t MLB’s problem – he was a problem for every major athletic organization in this country – and Major League Baseball is now supporting him.

Let that sink in for just a second. This isn’t the first time Bosch’s name came up with regards to PED. In 2009, his father, Pedro Bosch was named as a supplier to the then recently suspended Manny Ramirez.

So Major League Baseball’s idea to clean up the sport and stop their players from taking banned substances is NOT to help authorities go after those SUPPLYING the drugs to their players – it’s to go after the players using the drugs in an attempt to scare everybody else from ever trying it.

You know who you aren’t scaring?

Drug dealers.

Why?

Because you’re paying their legal fees.

The next drug dealer that gets caught isn’t going to go down, they are going to turn over. They are the problem in real life, outside the scope of Major League Baseball.

When you’re trying to clean up a drug problem, explain to me how it makes sense to go after the user and not the dealer?

In what warped universe am I supposed to listen to a drug dealer, a slimy slithering (you like that?) drug dealer and think “he must be telling the truth!”

Now let’s get back to Rodriguez.

To our knowledge, he has failed one test for banned PED substances and that was during the 2003 survey test.

So this leads me to my next point. If Major League Baseball wants me the avid baseball fan to believe they are cleaning up the game with their great drug testing program – then you cannot at the same time be going after a guy who DIDN’T FAIL A TEST!

Why?

Because if you’re telling me Rodriguez was taking a banned substance, then you’re simultaneously telling me your testing program DOES NOT WORK!

This entire case to me, sums up what is wrong with the sport of baseball as far up as Bud Selig and as far down as the writers who vote on the Hall of Fame candidacy.

If Major League Baseball has the right to ASSUME a player is guilty and go to great lengths (somewhat illegal lengths) to prove it, then how can we hold even the writers accountable for ASSUMING a player like say Mike Piazza took PED when there is no actual evidence to support it?

The last point I will make it to the MLB Players Union. You know, for years I have heard that they have the strongest union in the country if not the world. Where are they right now? If you want players like Piazza, Biggio, Bagwell for example to get the respect they deserve – then where is the union to stand up and tell the public and the writers who vote that assuming guilt with no evidence is not how we fix this problem?

Where is the union while one of their members is being subject to a witch hunt? Where is the union to stand up and point to the owners and the Commissioner for funding a drug dealer in an effort to rid the game of 1 baseball player?

This isn’t about whether Rodriguez is innocent or not – it’s about the great lengths Major League Baseball is taking in an effort to rid the game of a player, not rid the world of a drug dealer. If Rodriguez is guilty, the correct process should be in place to ensure he is found guilty. The word of a drug dealer is not or should not be the “correct process.”

Baseball wants us to assume players like Biggio, Piazza, Bagwell and now Rodriguez are guilty. If we assume former players were guilty with no evidence – it makes the entire PED problem of the past fall squarely on their shoulders – rather than sharing it between them, the league, the writers and yes, even us fans.

If we assume Rodriguez is currently guilty without credible evidence, it assumes that a person’s rights as a citizen of this country do not exist while in the confines of being a baseball player.

And you know what happens when you assume…don’t you Bud?

mmo

About Michael Branda 267 Articles
Michael Branda grew up a Mets fan watching the mid 1980's teams and his favorite Met of all-time is (and was) Wally Backman. When it comes to sabermetrics versus old school thinking, he's in the middle and believes adopting new ways to get answers is helpful, especially when the old way has not produced results.
  • Tired_OF_FakeRumors

    Great read and agreed on all points. Bud Selig is a horrible commissioner.

  • Charley’s Twin

    Next you’ll be telling me that Selig runs interference on behalf of the WIlpons, screwing Met fans in the process.

  • PGrizzly24

    Great Post. I was thinking the same thing last night. Like “Are they (MLB) really going after the user and cooperating with the drug dealer?” In what alternate universe am I living in where this makes any sense? It just reinforces the belief that this is all about Bud Selig getting his one big trophy (A-Rod) before riding off into the sunset.

  • Hey Mike… I’ve never seen anything like this before. It’s certainly unprecedented. Usually the user gets the deal and turns in all the drug dealers and peddlers he knows in exchange for leniency. I can’t stand A-Rod and he deserves everything he gets, but Selig has been trampling all over his constitutional rights while aligning himself with a person who by all accounts is a real dirt bag in addition to being the linchpin in this latest PED scandal. A-Rod still obstructed justice and that reflects negatively on him, but what Selig did is much worse because it reflects badly on all of MLB.

  • mitchpetanick

    I think the MLB is coming out of this situation looking awful. Bosch basically stated that just about everyone is using PEDs and can get around the testing. This reminds me of the big WWF sting back in the early 1990s that was supposed to clean up steroids in their industry – but you can’t look at wrestlers’ bodies today and tell me it’s all nutrition, so what has really been cleaned up? They can get around testing. Same thing in baseball. The business to cover up the drug use is more lucrative than the PED business because it serves no purpose of being on PED if you are going to get caught….they will always be a step ahead of testing.

  • Adam

    Constitutional rights? That’s a bit much. This is the MLB, a private organization – it’s not like he’s being subjected to criminal inquiry. And even then, labor law (which is not part of the Constitution, of course) likely doesn’t protect A-Rod here, because the MLB and MLBPA both agreed to abide by arbitration. Very little of this has anything to do with law, much less the Constitution.

  • Adam

    MLB is incentivized to handle drug use in a very different way than the government is. MLB doesn’t have nearly the resources to eliminate every source of PEDs – it’s much easier and more effective for them to try to scare away users. If they went after the dealers, there would still always be more dealers left.

    And “ridding the world of a drug dealer” is definitely something they have *zero* incentive to do, except insofar as it relates to their players. Leave the rest of it to the police.

  • jason bay

    In this case the players will never roll over though. They swear up and down they never took PED’s even to the point of perjuring themselves in court and in front of congress.

    MLB is subsidizing Boech’s testimony but that is the price being paid to catch the steroid cheats and MLB is interested in preventing the players from cheating, their not involved in catching the suppliers. That’s up to law enforcement.

    I was a big critic of Selig’s administration turning a blind eye to the steroid era but I applaud him for going after cheats now with every conceivable tool in MLB’s arsenal.

  • Maybe I was a bit over the top, but this case has been busting at the seams with leaks intended to portray him in the worst light possible, not that Arod needs any help there. MLB did their best to have this fought in the court of public opinion. And their entire case was based on testimony from a lowlife who agreed to work with MLB in exchange for having baseball drop the lawsuit against him which would have been a slam dunk. Not only did this guy and his father rake in millions for illegal drug trafficking out of his Biogenesis clinic, but he ripped off his own employees bouncing checks and refusing to pay them. MLB could have easily used the employees who turned on Bosch and knew everything, rather than dealing with the devil.

  • HillsideAve

    Terrific post. Everyone walks away with slime on them in this one. But as others have alluded to here, there will always be another drug provider (especially when these drugs can be acquired for legitimate purposes). So MLB makes an example of the highest paid, most vilified player they can in an effort to deter the demand among the players.

    Which is exactly why it won’t work. Although the dollars that A-Rod stands to lose are monumental, the real demand is from the marginally talented player trying to gain that 5% of increased performance that separates The Show from the softball beer league. In actuality, if you want to eradicate the problem (you can’t, see the War on Drugs), you have to go after the source, the users, and would-be users, and the users-to-be, via education.
    Bosch is no better than a jailhouse rat, and buying his testimony with legal fees is way over the top. They should have sweated him, charged him, and got him to roll over based on real criminal leverage.

  • Henry Hill got to live a nice life ratting out his friends. Sometimes you have to play with the devil to defeat some demons.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    CURTIS STRONG wants a do-over

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Yeah, other BIGGER DRUG DEALERS!!!(Suppliers)

    You dont see drug dealers getting deals for snitching on their crackhead, dopehead or cokehead clients

  • Hotstreak

    Most of the baseball community and we have our share in our GM who tolerated PEDS including the commissioner (who set the culture of acceptance until forced to change) not just in the past but with Braun more recently. Torre and Larrusa recent HOF’s also tolerated the usage of PEDs. Another case of selective enforcement as you say without proof to convict AROD; who I despise. However I despise the double standard even more. Good post.

  • I would say that AROD is the bigger fish than a two bit drugged out dealer.

  • jason bay

    The employees probably didn’t know half of what Boesch was able to tell them.

    The recreated e-mails and texts may not have been able to be obtained without Boesche’s consent and no matter what your never going to be dealing with above board people in the world of underground steroid use and sales.

    It certainly is quite a bit different than the cocaine trial of the Pittsburgh caterer of whom players couldn’t wait to roll over on but that that was a case of law enforcement, not MLB being proactive to put substance behind the new PED rules.

    I definitely applaud MLB for going at this issue as hard as they did but I do question how he was able to pass tests while taking this stuff.

    Hope it comes out in his lawsuit and I hope for once Rodriguez explains why he chose not to take the stand under oath.

  • Taskmaster4450

    So it is MLB responsibility to clean up drug dealers? So according to your warped logic, if a player is found using pot, then the NBA (or whomever) should go after the drug dealer. That is completely wrong.

    As for the “innocent until proven guilty” and “Arod deserves the benefit of the doubt”, get real. Since you omitted watching the interview, you obviously do not know the facts. The truth is copies of the texts between Bosch and ARod were uncovered. Bosch only had to decipher the code they used between them. This approach, which is used regularly in the US, to obtain convictions for the mob, drug rings, and insider trading occurs everyday. So ARod was grilled to the wall. To feign that somehow he is being railroaded because he is ARod and such an “injustice” is taking place is asinine. Let us not forget that the other baseball players (17 or 18 of them) who were also involved with Bosch, when presented with the evidence, took the punishments MLB handed down.

    MLB is responsible for baseball players only. It is only concerned about the conduct of its players. In fact, that is all it has dominion over. ARod was presented with the evidence against him and decided to fight it. He followed the procedure that was agreed upon by MLB AND the Players Union, a union ARod is part of. Just because ARod doesnt like what the arbiter ruled does not change anything. That is what the process is.

    ARod cheated…he knew he was cheating….and did everything he could to get away with it. Bosch is a snake…sure. But he is not MLB’s responsibility….ARod is.

  • A couple points.

    The union would only stand with the players if there was the ability to defend them. They saw the evidence that was used in this closed door arbitration hearing and they advised the players to take the suspension and shut up.

    Selig is doing serious legacy control. The ERA is a huge stain on him so he is pivoting to show he is the person responsible for the strictest assault on PED’s in sports. It’s good that he is doing it but it won;t take away from the truth that he had no problem profiting off of them especially after the last strike. I am sure he is still patting Sosa and McGuire on the butt when he sees them.

    Everything that Bosch is doing is demonstrating he is cooperative once the state of federal government go after him. He is a drug dealer and everything he is doing with MLB has no definitive positive if he is indicted. He is guilty, he knows he is guilty and this is far from over for him. I would not be surprised if he over doses or kills himself before we get that far.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    In what sense is AROD a bigger fish in this scenario?

    Bosch had a HUGE MLB Client list.

    Alex Rodriguez, Ryan Braun, Melky Cabrera, Nelson Cruz, Bartolo Colon, Yasmani Grandal, Francisco Cervelli, Jesus Montero, Jhonny Peralta, Cesar Puello, Fernando Martinez, Everth Cabrera, Fautino de los Santos and Jordan Norberto.Antonio Bastardo, Sergio Escalona, Jordany Valdespin, Bartolo Colon, Melky Cabrera, and Yasmani Grandal.

    Gio Gonzalez & Danny Valencia were clients of Bosch too but somehow were cleared.

    So Bosch had a wide net cast on MLB Players. From MVP winners, Allstars all the way down to prospects.

    So how is one man A-roid a bigger fish???

    And the MLB PAYED BOSCH!!!

    They also paid for his round the clock security for a drug dealer whom tainted their game…Look at how many players he touched.

    Look at the affect Bosch had on the 2013 MLB Baseball season….these guys missed time and cost their teams WINS….and cost them ultimately in the PLAYOFFS!!!

  • Taskmaster4450

    This is a true statement regardless of the PED scandal.

  • The-rock-man

    Kind of sad that your article sounds like A-rod is the victim. When he starts calling all the season ticket holders and apologizes for disrespecting the game then maybe I will soften my stance. Until then, he will forever live like a king in a mansion built by fans who believed he was the greatest ball player of modern era.

  • What name do you remember more Barry Bonds or Greg Anderson?

    None of what is happening can save Bosch from going to jail, MLB is taking care of their own eternal business.

  • Taskmaster4450

    MLB only has control over the players who play baseball. Last time I checked, Bosch is not part of the players union hence outside the scope of MLB.

    If a player gets arrested for having a gun, does MLB go after the gun manufacturer? Or the person who sold him the gun? Of course not. It can only police the players who play MLB.

  • jessepmmo

    It’s certainly MLB’s job to take a stand against drug dealers rather than give them an opportunity to shed any guilt from the crime.

    I didn’t watch an interview with a drug dealer. You’re right. But I wouldn’t call that “not knowing the facts.” What do you know as facts today that you didn’t yesterday? Nothing. That is, unless you’re telling me a corrupt CAUGHT drug dealer is believable?

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    in other news we just lost out on Tejada’s MENTOR…Cesar Izturis who just signed w/the Astros lol

  • jessepmmo

    Not to mention the other sports he had clients from. If Bosch allegedly got $12,000 from ARod – there was more money keeping his “clinic” open. ARod is a bigger fish because he has a higher average annual salary.

    A bigger fish should be the guy who is helping athletes cheat and making money off dealing drugs.

    If you don’t give power to the drug dealers, then the supply will never catch up to the demand.

  • jason bay

    Yeah,

    Not up to MLB to go after drug dealers and I believe the union is sick of defending them also because they and go prepare a defense and then the guy gets caught again or he’s caught making up some fake website or going on trial for perjury or something and the players union has a responsibility to ALL of it’s members, not just the cheats, but also the one’s who don’t cheat.

  • Taskmaster4450

    No the evidence against ARod along with the testimony of a drug dealer is believable.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Did you miss the part where I mentioned THE MLB PAYING BOSCH & PAYING FOR HIS SECURITY???

    You dont pay the dude tons of cash after he was a huge part of the problem to your game.

    MLB & Selig just helped to pay Bosch’s lawyers when the criminal charges[and IRS] against him come floating in

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    What name do you remember more Barry Bonds or Greg Anderson?

    Uhhhhh…….BALCO!!!

  • This just came out:

    “A federal judge said Monday that Alex Rodriguez
    cannot file portions of arbitrator Fredric Horowitz’s decision under
    seal as part of a lawsuit seeking to overturn the one-year suspension
    from baseball”

    http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/10287360/alex-rodriguez-lawsuit-partial-seal-judge-rules

    He wants to sue but doesn’t want that information made public. This guy is just so full of ….

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Not about going after Bosch….THEY HELPED BOSCH by PAYING HIM & PAYING for his security team.

    They paid for some of Bosch’s lawyer fees when he faces criminal charges

  • Taskmaster4450

    Amazing….Absolutely amazing. Now I have seen it all.

    Anthony Bosch. So that is who MLB should have gone after? Is that what many of you are saying? MLB needs to take a stand against the drug dealer and not the user?

    Okay. What does MLB do? Do they arrest Bosch? Oh wait, they have no authority to do that. Do they suspend him? Cant do that he isnt a baseball player. Tell him to stay away from the players? Cant do that, they dont have that authority.

    So if MLB wanted to go after Bosch, what do they do? MLB has no authority over the guy whatsoever. The ones they do have jurisdiction over are the major and minor league players who are under contract and part of the CBA. And that is what they did. ARod and the 17 or 18 others is their responsibility, not Bosch; he answers to the DEA.

  • jessepmmo

    For starters taskmaster – they could try not partnering with him and not paying his legal fees. Just a thought though.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Yes you do. It is done all the time. The DEA and FBI pays informants regularly. It is how one gathers information on slimy figures.

    Sorry to break the news to you but the ones who have the evidence are the same ones engaged in the crime.

    So you are saying that Selig should have looked the other way…again.

  • Balco is a company, Greg Anderson and Victer Conte were the suppliers. The dealers names are fading away, soon Balco will and all that is left is Bonds.

    Without looking it up do you remember the names of the people that worked with the Black Sox or do you remember names like Joe Jackson and Eddie Cicotte.For MLB the fish are the players and the government takes care of the law breaking.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Great job making stuff up…no one said go after Bosch…

    They did however say not to lay in bed with him and pay him money that will go towards his security team and LEGAL FEES which could help him get off SCOTT FREE or w/ minimal damage depending on his lawyers

  • Taskmaster4450

    Of course they should have. Who else had the evidence against the players (MLBs only concern)? This is standard practice in investigations. Sometimes the only ones who know what took place are the scumbags.

    But then MLB could have opted not to do it and look the other way while allowing this stuff to continue, something Selig did for the better part of 2 decades.

  • CyYout

    It’s easy to be sanctimonious about this whole thing; the sad thing is it doesn’t actually cure anything. MLB is charged with protecting the integrity of the game against owners’ greed and players cheating. In that instance, they failed horribly and whether this is a witch hunt or an honest attempt at rectifying wrongs is a matter of debate. But, they are not responsible for administering justice against a drug dealer — that’s the government’s job and like a comment said below, I doubt this is far from over for Bosch and his kind. The long and the short of it in my view is that demand is the cause and not the effect. In other words, you can chase down all the suppliers, but until there is enough disincentive created by MLB, the owners will want more money and the players will want better stats, and the drug dealers will have clients.

  • pennmetsfan

    MLB isn’t the police. They can’t go after drug dealers. MLB was completely correct in suspending A Rod. The arbitrator agreed. The union isn’t even fighting it. Yes, they are using a drug dealer to get information. I have never understood the false logic that because he is a drug dealer that his testimony is unreliable. He SOLD to the players who else is going to know more about it? Especially with the paper and money trail leading from players to Biogenesis.

  • jessepmmo

    I think you’re confusing my desire for them to not AID & SUPPORT drug dealers for prosecuting them.

    In the real world, something that should take precedence above baseball – Tony Bosch is the bigger criminal and threat to society than Alex Rodriguez.

    So CHOOSING to support Bosch and pay his legal fees etc is what I have a problem with.

  • BronxMets

    This post is so dumb I have to wait until I get home to respond.

  • Taskmaster4450

    So instead they should ignore Bosch, and let the players off scott free because without Bosch providing MLB evidence, there is nothing to make a case about.

    Once again, MLB has no responsibility towards Bosch one way or another. He isnt under their jurisdiction. MLB is only responsible with policing their players. In this instance, it meant getting in bed with a drug dealer to find the dirt on the players.

  • jason bay

    Right and not get the goods that caused 17 players to accept their suspension and get the 18th one to take one through arbitration.

    This whole idea of MLB “laying in bed with Bosch” is ridiculous. They put the heat on him and made it worth his while to provide the evidence that resulted in these suspensions including the one to Braun which to me was a big win for baseball.

  • jessepmmo

    Let me ask you this.

    Barry Bonds in your eyes is just as guilty as ARod I am sure right? Same crimes, why separate them.

    Do you think MLB would have supported BALCO the way they are BioGenesis just to get Bonds & Giambi (assuming they cared back then).

    I don’t.

    How come MLB felt the need to intervene in that scandal?

    Couldn’t a guilty verdict of Bosch do just as much damage to ARod and the others as BALCO did to Bonds in the court of public opinion?

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    The MLB isnt the FBI or DEA…

    With that said the FBI or DEA dont pay the CAUSE(drug dealer, killer) to bring charges up against the user.

    They make deals with the little man to get to the big man…

    A-roids drug use destroys himself…Bosch dealing destroys countless players including Aroid.

    Yes you go after A-roid but you also dont affiliate yourself with the guy who supplied Aroid w/the instruents to cheat baseball

  • jessepmmo

    I think the Polar Vortex made its way to MMO since we are in agreement… hell may have really frozen over

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    I wasnt around in those days nor do I study segregated baseball years, those years mean little to NOTHING to me..so I know nothing of anyone who was involved players nor other individuals…

    I only hear Jacksons name today due to scandal and him not being in the hall of fame. If it werent for that I dont think he’d be mentioned at all today.

    Almost forgot I dont think Bonds when I hear BALCO…I 1st think /conte, Anderson…then Marion Jones & Giambi

  • Sure but Selig is trying to polish up that legacy before he leaves and waiting for the feds will take too long. It also helps keep AROD from moving ahead of Mays on the HR list which I am sure much of baseball is OK with even though the measure that they are taking may seem unethical.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Are you really that naive. America has waged a war on drugs for 30 years and look at the drug problem.

    You really think that eliminating drug dealers solves the problem. Funny there are auctions weekly in Florida of houses and cars taken from drug dealers upon conviction yet there are still drugs. Why is that? Perhaps it is because others step in to take their place.

    Bosch was supplying players for about 10 years. What about McGwire? Canseco? They had the stuff long before Bosch was around. Get real. One goes away, another one steps in.

  • Taskmaster4450

    MLB real world is the players and the game it oversees. That is all. Tony Bosch is not its responsibility. MLB cannot prosecute him for anything he did. That is up to the government (which was already after the guy).

    But according to your reasoning, it should have looked the other way when it was presented with the evidence against its players since Bosch was an unenviable type. Without a guilty drug test, nobody is guilty.

  • That’s my whole point. Jackson was a good enough player where he could have been in the HOF if he played longer. He was out by age 32. Baseball is not worried about the bad guys that enabled the players to do the bad things that is for the government, they are worried about these players legacies.

  • dealingwithidiots

    ………but you had time to tell us this?

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    A-Roids legacy was destroyed a long time ago….If that were the case they wouldve never went so light on Ryan Braun…

    For all the posturing and madness he caused MLB they gave him a slap on the wrist…and he was way more defiant than Aroid..not to mention he caused a man to lose his job and credibility

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    Their is no real war on drugs….

    FYI in order to stop something you stop the source not the customer…

    You cant stop the DEMAND but you can stop the SUPPLY

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    O_o

  • I agree with that but we aren’t talking about Braun.

    Also off topic 1920 Joe Jackson WAR 7.6, 2013 Cabrera WAR 7.2. Jackson>Cabrera

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    HEAT???

    LMAO…If you call paying a man tons of cash, paying for his security(safety) and offering to put a “GOOD WORD IN FOR HIM” when he gets taken to court on criminal charges is heat then…your Thermostat is backwards.

    They made a bed out of marshmallows for bosch and laid next to him butt-nekkid

  • Also AROD had a chance for a deal but he decided to fight. He could have been out after 50 game first offense but he stuck his heals in and hired a slew of PR people and had a rotation of lawyers until he found the right scum sucking pig to represent him. He gambled and lost.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    1920 Joe Jackson vs inferior talent (Only WHITES)

    2013 Miguel Cabrera vs THE WORLD

    Try again.

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    No…they attempted to give him a larger ban than that 50 game suspension and even more than Braun

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    LOL

    TOUCHE

  • Maybe so but this is all we know according to Weiner the former head of MLBPA:

    “I don’t want to give a number, but there was a number that I gave A-Rod and we advised him to take it”.

    Braun took it and so did everyone else. AROD didn’t and then added to his woes when he tried to obstruct the investigation (they didn’t even have Bosch at the bargain time). Even if he got a 100 game suspension he would be out on the field next season making his salary and getting his bonus for passing Mays. He thought his buying power could by a verdict and he lost.

  • Biggle Boy

    In 2003, when asked if there were an explanation for the positive test result, Rodriguez told SI: “I’m not saying anything.”

    In 2009, Alex was ready to talk, telling ESPN, “I did take a banned substance. And for that, I am very sorry and deeply regretful.”

    So in 2014, if the Federal court hears his case, I know that once again, he won’t talk. ‘Cause taking the stand and denying, under oath, he once again took PEDs puts him in jeopardy of being found guilty of perjury.

  • MetsfanInParadise

    Prosecutors make deals with dirty witnesses all the time in order to put someone away. This isn’t nearly as big a deal as you make it out to be. Besides, as others have said, MLB has no jurisdiction over Bosch. It’s easier for them to deal with the demand end, the players, than with the supply end of the chain, because they can actually penalize the players. And furthermore, it’s not a matter of assuming anyone is guilty. If the other dozen players hadn’t known the information Bosch provided was true, why wouldn’t they have appealed their suspensions?

  • jason bay

    A Rod was the big man.

    A man that has repeatedly lied about his steroid usage in a sport in which every player has repeatedly lied about their steroid usage but Rodriguez allegedly tried to obstruct MLB’s investigation of Biogenisis and that was a new ground breaking event in the whole sordid thing.

    Rodriguez allegledly tried to thwart MLB’s investigation by bribary, buying documents, relocating people out of the country where who knows what might have happened.

    Stern and harsh measures should have been used against him and thankfully they were.

  • In an ideal situation you would like to be able to get a player circumventing the rules of baseball with individuals that are beyond reproach as far as their credibility but that is just not always an option. Sometimes the information/evidence needed to get in this case players breaking the rules can only be gained by those the players are in cahoots to break them to begin with.

    Face it, you have players that know how to maneuver inside the system to avoid being caught and have weighed the options of what the ramifications will be if caught and have concluded cheating is still worth the risk. In my opinion MLB knows this as well and after the farce Braun made of the system after getting off with a positive drug test MLB it seems decided to do what it takes when the Bio Genesis story broke to get those players even if it meant making a deal with a character like Bosch.

    Are MLB’s hands clean at the end of this? No but at the risk of using another metaphor, sometimes you have to get your hands dirty and in this case MLB did.

    Our justice system has a long history of similar tactics to get the so called “Bigger Fish”. MLB I am guessing saw ARod as a big fish that they just could not allow to continue to get away and did what they had to do.

    As long as the penalties continue to not outweigh the risks players will continue to find ways to illegally enhance themselves.

  • jessepmmo

    How often do prosecutors make deals with drug dealers to put away drug users?

    All you’re doing here is giving any other drug dealer no consequence for his action. What about everybody else he likely dealt to? How about the University of Miami? Those are students that he was dealing drugs to you through the trainer you know…

  • Well put buddy!! Right on!!!!!
    I couldnt agree with you more!!!

  • BadBadLeroyBrown

    If he is outside the scope let him remain outside the scope…..

    WHY BRING HIM IN AS A CONSULTANT/PARTNER???

    -Gave Bosch Tons of Money
    -Paid Tons of money for his safety(secutity team)
    -Promised to put in a good word for Bosch when he faces criminal charges!!!

    Bosch is a DRUG DEALER who even sells DRUGS TO KIDS!!!! And the MLB is in bed with him and giving him money…money the MLB received from fans whom have kids.

    Do you know how severe the jail time is for drug dealers who get caught selling in or near a school let alone to KIDS???

  • Benny

    “How often do prosecutors make deals with drug dealers to put away drug users?

    Well put! OC has it all backwards…

  • jessepmmo

    I’m not sure I understand your post. Today ARod’s lawyers won because they are able to reveal the transcript of the entire arbitration hearing… IE what Bosch said. They WANT EVERYTHING to be read.

    “We’re thrilled,” said Jordan Siev, one of A-Rod’s lawyers. “We want the entire record to be public. We want everyone to be able to see exactly what Bosch said.”

    They didn’t want portions to be revealed, the MLBPA was the one that didn’t want the reveal because they felt it violated the CBA.

  • BehindTheBag

    CAN’T WAIT!!!! SO EXCITED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • BehindTheBag

    Don’t agree with this premise at all. The only interest MLB has in Boesch is enlisting his help to gather evidence to prosecute, within the justice system of MLB, a known cheat.

    And before we get into the “Alex’s word vs. Tony’s”, “he-said/she-said” semantics, let me say this – you will not find 100’s of text messages from me on the phone of any drug dealer, discussing purchasing and using drugs. Know why? Because I don’t buy or use drugs. Can’t say the same for A-Roid. Case closed.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Because he had the information about ARod and the others. Hell he was able to state ARod schedule of what was taken when. That is called someone who knows. That is why MLB got into bed with him…because he had the information it needed. Sorry the local parish priest didnt have it.

    Yes and do not forget that Bosch is under indictment with the Feds. His day in court is coming for the dealing and will face a harsher sentence if proven he sold to minors.

    You seem to mistake the credibility of the information for the credibility for the person.

  • Taskmaster4450

    How is it no consequences? Bosch is under indictment. He is also being investigated by the Feds for giving drugs to minors. So where is that no consequence.

    And what about the University of Miami? How is that MLB’s concern. If UM has a problem, they should take action themselves.

    Amazing. Suddenly MLB has to be this holier than now organization deeming where it gets its info from. If you want to catch a rat, you often have to interact with other rats. That is the way the real world works.

  • Taskmaster4450

    It also was able to ensnare another big time cheat, Braun in its net.

  • Donal

    I must say, that was a remarkable turnaround time for 60 Minutes. The decision came down at noon Saturday and CBS was teasing the segment during the Pats Colts game that afternoon. And the report itself had people involved with case making comments that only make sense in the context of Rodriguez being suspended. Where they all interviewed the instant the ruling came down?

  • Just_Da_damaja

    because they are giving legal protection for a drug dealer who was giving PED’s to kids.

  • Just_Da_damaja

    thats the point…

    the fact that A-Rod is able to get away with this shows that their drug program does no work.

    How many other folks are taking PED”s and not getting caught…?

  • Just_Da_damaja

    so go after 17 players but defend the guy who fed dozens of kids PED”s off scott free

    that makes sense !

  • Metro12

    First off, a happy new year to everyone at Metsmerized. I hope the new posting format results in fewer administrative headaches for Joe D.

    Hey Jessep, you know I respect you, but on the issue of PEDs, I am a hardliner and strongly disagree with you. Your stance sounds a little like Mike Francessa’s apologist position, and I don’t think it’s ever a good thing for a Mets fan to be aligned with him. : )

    I have no issue with MLB’s actions in this investigation. Authorities often have to pay for information and work with unsavory characters in order to attain a certain level of justice. It happens every day in law enforcement and other fields.

    A few points …

    “So Major League Baseball’s idea to clean up the sport and stop their players from taking banned substances is NOT to help authorities go after those SUPPLYING the drugs to their players – it’s to go after the players using the drugs in an attempt to scare everybody else from ever trying it.”

    MLB has no jurisdiction over Bosch in this matter. They have no power to either
    investigate or punish him for drug dealing. Further, nothing MLB did prevents the feds or local authorities from going after Bosch now for any criminal activity. Yes, he’s richer now thanks to MLB so he can better afford legal representation, but there is probably also a lot more prosecutable evidence on him and his activities out in the open than before MLB started their investigation. So, in this respect, MLB may have furthered any potential prosecution on him. But the truth seems to be that he was more a small-time dealer who didn’t deal in the hard stuff – anabolic steroids like winstrol and deca durabolin. And he’s no longer in business. As such, I don’t think legal authorities have much interest in going after him.

    It’s not MLB’s job to go after drug dealers and clean up drugs in the general population — their job is just to clean up baseball.

    “So this leads me to my next point. If Major League Baseball wants me the avid baseball fan to believe they are cleaning up the game with their great drug testing program – then you cannot at the same time be going after a guy who DIDN’T FAIL A TEST!”

    Of course they can! I don’t see how one has to do with the other. If you want authorities to clean up something, you want them to use any method they have – including both failed tests AND non-analytical evidence. You want the cops to go after the robbers and muggers, right? Does that mean they should only go after robbers and muggers that they can catch right in the act? Of course not. Also, non-analytical bans are part of the CBA in baseball and have been for a long time. This is nothing new.

    “If Major League Baseball has the right to ASSUME a player is guilty and go to great lengths (somewhat illegal lengths) to prove it, then how can we hold even the writers accountable for ASSUMING a player like say Mike Piazza took PED when there is no actual evidence to support it?”

    Apples and oranges, Jessep. MLB is not just assuming that A-Rod did banned PEDs … they have credible evidence of the type that is admissible in a court of law that he did it. Yes, as unsavory as Bosch might be, plenty of his type testify before juries every day, resulting in convictions. Just because Bosch is a bad character doesn’t mean he isn’t telling the truth. I believe MLB also has hard evidence that A-Rod (1) attempted to thwart MLB’s investigation by trying to buy off potential witnesses and destroy evidence and (2) lied to them repeatedly and directly in this and other previous MLB investigations — such as that involving Galea. I think they have evidence on A-Rod that consist of phone, text, or email messages, in addition to the direct testimony of a first-hand witness.

    The amount and type of evidence MLB has on A-Rod is miles different from that which exists on Piazza – which is simply speculation and opinion. A judge would laugh a party out of court with the type of so-called flimsy “evidence” that exists on Piazza, whereas one could build a credible case against A-Rod. That is the difference between the two situations.

    As for the BBWA’s continued snub of Piazza, he is paying the heavy price and being punished for big cheats like Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Sosa. He is also a victim of dirty cheap smear campaigns by the likes of Pearlman and Chass. But that’s the breaks. If Piazza’s initial eligibility had not occurred at the same exact time as the confirmed cheats, then he might have made it through by his second year of eligibility. There is just enough suspicion regarding him that he couldn’t escape the huge taint of the big cheaters.

    Apologists like Francessa are sounding quite pathetic these days. I think part of the reason he is defending A-Rod so emotionally is because he’s embarrassed that yet another high profile Yankee has been revealed to be a big cheater. The Yankees have the dirtiest team in MLB history when it comes to PEDs abuse. If I were a fan of that team, I’d be embarrassed too. But making excuses for him is not the way to go. Francessa should just shut up.

  • Anthony

    The fact that they have to get information from unsavory characters goes with the business that the players are exposing themselves to. Everyone would like a choir boy as their main witness, but not likely to be the case when dealing in Phds.

  • Metro12

    It’s different jurisdictions for MLB and Bosch, whereas the law has jurisdiction over both dealers and users. Even if MLB wanted to, it couldn’t touch Bosch from a legal perspective. And nothing MLB did in the A-Rod investigation prevents the law from going after Bosch now.

  • Metro12

    Not true. MLB had no authority to give any legal protection to Bosch, and they didn’t do so.

  • Agee’s Catch

    I didn’t read it that way. I believe Mr. Branda is incredulous that Bosch is viewed as credible while being paid for his testimony. He’s an expert witness in a violation that he helped perpetuate.

  • blaiseda

    Oh please. can we remove all the posters to this site who just complain about everyone who has any position of power, (Selig, Wilpons, Anderson, Collins, their boss, their mother) Yep.. they all stink and cant do therir jobs. That’s why they have their jobs and all you have is a PC and an internet connection. Give me a break.

  • Mike

    What is this a Mike Fransesca post? If you watched the 60 minute piece yesterday you’d see why the test don’t work, because guys like Bosh help players beat them. If you know through phone records and payments and testimony that a player has been using steroids, then what’s the difference? Guilty is guilty, mlb is trying to get it into the plsyer’s heads that if you cheat, you will get busted. Who cares gow they get their info. They not a federal agency, they can do whatever they want. Do what A-rod and Nrkson Cruz can have shady dealings with this guy but mlb can’t?

  • SRT

    Everyone involved in this looks bad, IMO.

    Isn’t a doubt in my mind that ARod got away with juicing all along, up until this point.
    Also isn’t a doubt in my mind that Selig’s lost his mind. He became obsessed with getting ARod, in part to bolster his legacy going out the door.

    Read this NY Times article from last Nov.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/04/sports/baseball/in-rodriguez-arbitration-two-sides-play-hardball.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2

    This doesn’t put Selig and MLB in any better light than ARod.
    Bribes, strong arm tactics, death threats, Selig hiring is own investigative team and not bothering to inform the MLB investigative team, MLB investigative team member sleeping with a witness and sending her flowers, ARod’s team paying $100 grand for the card that came with those flowers……

    You just can’t make this stuff up.

  • pennmetsfan

    In the real works prosecutors give deals to drug dealers all the time if the dealer will turn in the bigger target. MLB has to come down on the players because the players are the ones breaking the league rules. They can’t control drug dealers but can punish players.

  • Angelo Darden

    From some of the comments here, I would hope that most of you take a course on the Constitution. I guess to a certain segment of the population, “stop and frisk” isn’t so bad either.
    Why there is so animosity toward A-Rod is beyond me. I have yet to read or listen to a “A-Rod hater” that isn’t totally deranged. The level of vitriol directed to him is surpassed only by the level directed to President Obama and Adolf Hitler; one because he was responsible for so many deaths ( which makes me wonder why no one mentions Stalin, who actually killed more) and the other because he’s Black.
    But I’ll assume that whoever is reading this is somewhat sane. First of all, Alex Rodriguez has NEVER tested positive for steroid use. That alone, should be the end of the discussion; no crime-no prosecution.

    Second point; under the Collective Bargaining Agreement, MLB’s drug testing policy mandates the following for positive test results:

    “First positive test result: 50 game suspension

    Second positive test result: 100 game suspension

    Third positive test result: lifetime ban from MLB

    All suspensions are without pay. In addition, a suspended player can
    be replaced on the active roster by another player. If a player is on
    the disabled list, the suspension is served while on the disabled list.”

    If indeed MLB has evidence that he took steroids, it would result in a 50 game suspension for a first positive result. So now, MLB in their 211, now 162 game suspension is in violation of it’s own policy in addition to the Collective Bargaining Agreement and if I were a Player Representative I’d file an immediate grievance against MLB to the federal Labor Relations Board. This unprecedented punishment against this one player is punitive and discriminatory. And in the light of having no cause of action against him, smacks of a institutional “witch hunt”.

    Third point: According to the Constitution, an accused person has the right to confront his accusers. They would be subject to cross examination under penalty of perjury and their credibility would be rigorously tested. MLB chose Anthony Bosch as their paid witness, to testify against Rodriguez, even going so far as to interfere with a state investigation against Bosch and to foot his legal bills for his federal prosecution. Another point to be made is the refusal of Commissioner Selig to appear at the hearing. Since the Commissioner is ultimately the one taking action against Rodriguez, then why can’t he answer questions to that fact? Doesn’t A-Rod have the right to confront his accuser and the evidence against him? But to many of you, the Constitution nor justice applies to a baseball player.

    Fourth point: MLB is inconsistent in the application of it’s policy. Ryan Braun who tested positive previously and had it overturned by arbitration, admitted that he took steroids in the light of the evidence turned Biogenesis investigation along with 12 other players and each received a 50 game suspension. Yet, A-Rod was sanctioned with a 211 game suspension. Why? To hear it from MLB, he not only took steroids but also hindered the investigation. If that’s the logic, then why isn’t Ryan Braun suspended for the same amount of games due to his first positive test. If you say that his first test doesn’t count, I would say that’s what they’re doing to A-Rod with his confession from 2003; they’re adding that as part of the punishment. Bud Selig says that it’s “inherently fair” and I say, let’s test HIM to see what he’s been smoking.

    All in all, this stinks to high heaven. For those of you who hate A-Rod; I’d say “get a life”. For those of you, who may disagree with me. I’m willing to take you on, point by point. This is NOT because I’m an A-Rod fan; it’s because I’m a fan of justice. And this is not justice by any stretch of the imagination.

  • BehindTheBag

    Angelo – despite the absence of a positive test, do you believe that Rodriguez procured and used PED’s from BioGenesis? If so, you should have no problem with what MLB is doing. If not, I have a bridge to sell you.

  • Angelo Darden

    Behind: it’s not what I believe, it’s what you can PROVE. Since you can’t prove A-Rod took PED’s nor your ownership of any bridge, then your assertions and your bridge offer don’t mean much.

  • Angelo Darden

    I will quote the following: ” No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
    crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in
    cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in
    actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be
    subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or
    limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness
    against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without
    due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use,
    without just compensation.” If you note that little phrase there; the one that says he can’t be compelled to testify against himself, yeah, that’s why he said “I’m not saying anything”. He has that right, just as you do as well. Also he confessed to taking PED’s in 2001-before there was a policy in place. So why punish him for something that wasn’t banned when he took them?

  • Angelo Darden

    Behind; it’s hearsay. The hearsay rule regarding text messages is not consistently held in many courts (http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/evidenceprof/2013/06/text-messages-and-the-hearsay-rule-in-the-aaron-hernandez-case.html) Nevertheless, it comes down to the word of a convicted drug dealer against someone who has the presumption of innocence on his side. Again, keep in mind, there no physical evidence (i.e. a positive drug test) all you have is an allegation. I hope for your sake you never get accused of a crime; you’d confess yourself into a jail cell.

  • Biggle Boy

    My point was that today, when PEDs are a banned substance, and he is given the opportunity to state under oath in Federal court that he did not take them during his relationship with Anthony Bosch, he is at risk for perjury. Because there may well be enough evidence to prove he is lying.

    And if he does not take the stand to, under oath refute the charge, then his case is weakened. Simple as that.

  • Angelo Darden

    Now Behind, what arguments do you have against what I’ve written? You’re confirming my premise that the A-Rod haters are deranged and in addition, MLB is using the animosity toward A-Rod as leverage to get away with a witch hunt. By the way, I can sell you beachfront property in Arizona if you believe that MLB is absolutely sincere in it’s intentions to “clean up the game”.

  • BehindTheBag

    I’m no lawyer. Fortunately, baseball is not a court of law. It has a system that involves showing your evidence to an arbiter and having him decide.

    A-Rod got a fair hearing from a fair arbiter, the same process that wrongly exonerated Ryan Braun awhile back.

    I have no problem with the process in the slightest, and think justice was served.

    A-Rod could have prevented this whole affair if he had, you know, not gotten messed up with drug dealers.

  • BehindTheBag

    Your arguments are all based off of our federal judiciary. Which are perfectly valid. Except this is not federal court (as much as A-Rod’s appeal would like it to get there). This was an internal arbitration before an impartial arbiter. Who found the evidence in favor of baseball.

    Your arguments have no merit in this case. It would be like me suggesting that baseball overstepped it’s bounds by failing to hold a duel at 10 paces between Selig and A-Rod. That’s not the justice system in play here, so it’s really irrelevant.

  • BehindTheBag

    Please don’t dodge. Tell me what you believe – do you believe that A-Rod, in accordance with the mountain of evidence MLB has procured (much of it way more than simply the word of a drug dealer), was a drug cheat?

  • jason bay

    MLB is not an arm of law enforcement and they are not defending Bosch, they provided a way for him to give his truthful testimony.

    What’s so difficult to understand about that?

  • BehindTheBag

    Also, one other thing. You cite baseball’s drug policy. MLB fought for and got a higher suspension not because of the proof that he used PED’s – A-ROD also attempted rather blatantly to destroy and tamper with evidence. That’s a crime worth punishing by MLB.

    A-Rod’s a slimeball, and I consider justice well served when slimeballs are punished for wrongdoing.

    If A-Rod were a slimeball but innocent of his crimes, then I’d want to see MLB get off his back. But he’s not, that’s clear to anyone with working ears and eyes.

  • Metro12

    Non-analytical positives have been a part of the CBA for a long long time, and have been used before. Manny Ramirez was banned technically for a non-analytical positive, though he did actually fail a test. I don’t know why some of you think this is new for the A-Rod case.

    The reason A-Rod’s suspension is so long is not JUST because he took banned PEDs, but because he also attempted to thwart MLB’s official investigation and lied to them under questioning. Ryan Braun did not attempt to buy and destory evidence or buy off witnesses. If he had, his sentence likely would have been much longer.

    There are no constitutional rights being trampled here. This wasn’t even a criminal proceeding. And, in a criminal proceeding you don’t get the right to have just anyone testify. The judge would rule on the relevancy of the testimony. Since it is unlikely Selig did any of the actual investigative legwork regarding the A-Rod investigation, it is irrelevant what he has to say. Selig’s motives are irrelevant. The only relevant points are whether A-Rod took banned substances or not and whether the evidence is solid or not.

    I really don’t understand the apologists for the PEDs cheats.

  • jason bay

    They filed a lawsuit against him. That put him in a precarious situation. That was the heat.

    MLB most certainly did not offer him immunity from criminal prosecution or exhoneration should he be charged or convicted and IF they put in a good word………

    Who gives a ****. What does that mean to a DA? That all charges are wiped away?

    LOL, your so naive..

  • jason bay

    I hope this a joke,

    Izturis is the last thing we need here.

  • jason bay

    The big fish is the guy with the most to lose.

    In this case it’s a Rod, Braun ect.

  • jason bay

    Under his agreement with MLB Bosch incriminated himself so one could say that MLB got the cheats and the supplier.

    Had they not done what they did chances are they get no one.

  • Angelo Darden

    ” I’m no lawyer.”
    Well, that’s apparent.
    ” Fortunately, baseball is not a court of law. It has a system that
    involves showing your evidence to an arbiter and having him decide”
    And an arbitration is a legally mandated legal procedure and the rules of evidence still apply. More importantly so is a contract like a Collective Bargaining Agreement. So explain how it’s ok to rule in violation of a contract when there was no cause of action to begin with?

    “A-Rod got a fair hearing from a fair arbiter, the same process that wrongly exonerated Ryan Braun awhile back.”

    So the arbitrator got it wrong then, he ruled that the chain of evidence was broken and thus Braun’s sample could have been tampered with. But you just wrote that “baseball is not a court of law” and they applied the same principles as any court would. Now because it’s a verdict you like, it’s ok to NOT use the same reasoning. Which one is it? Or should we just enforce rules we like?

    ” I have no problem with the process in the slightest, and think justice was served.”

    Hold up! didn’t you just say: ” A-Rod got a fair hearing from a fair arbiter, the same process that wrongly exonerated Ryan Braun awhile back.”? So you didn’t like the process when Braun won, but like it when Rodriguez lost? And people complain about the American justice system, I wonder why?

    ” A-Rod could have prevented this whole affair if he had, you know, not gotten messed up with drug dealers.”

    The Biogenesis clinic was a legal clinic specializing in weight loss and hormone replacement therapy. Which is legal in the state of Florida. Now A-Rod was not the only player named in the scandal, 12 other players were named, including Ryan Braun of which this is a second infraction. But he received a 50 game suspension with an additional 15 for a CBA violation. MLB went above and beyond for A-Rod. Like you said, they’re not a court of law, so why would they pay a drug dealer for his testimony including interfering with a state investigation and footing his legal expenses in the Federal prosecution? They could have used his testimony at his trial for free for evidence against A-Rod. So what was the rush? Is it because Bud Selig aka,B.S. is retiring at the end of the season and wants A-Rod as a “trophy”?

  • Angelo Darden

    Again, where’s the positive test? Like you said: ” Non-analytical positives have been a part of the CBA for a long long
    time, and have been used before. Manny Ramirez was banned technically
    for a non-analytical positive, though he did actually fail a test. I
    don’t know why some of you think this is new for the A-Rod case.” OK, Metro, where’s the positive? All MLB has is notes from a clinic and whistleblower testimony regarding the activities of the owner. But absent of physical proof, there’s only circumstantial evidence, and weak evidence at that. In all probability, it won’t stand up in court. But it’s just enough for an arbitrator to rule on, albeit a reduced punishment.

    But now why the unprecedented punishment term? According to the policy, he should be facing a 50 game suspension. There’s no conviction or any mitigating circumstances warranting that kind of punishment. Why can’t Selig testify why he’s doing this? Why was Selig reluctant to appear at the hearing? http://espn.go.com/new-york/columns/mlb/story/_/id/10007736/alex-rodriguez-case-bud-selig-testify

  • Donal

    In the real world, cases aren’t built on the word of co-conspirators. there needs to be collaborative evidence. In most cases, the guy getting the deal is just confirming what the prosecution already has documented.

  • Metro12

    A non-analytical positive means someone is deemed to have positively taken PEDs due to evidence other than a test. That’s technically why Manny Ramirez was banned, and there have been many others in the past as well — both in the major and minor leagues. This is hardly a new thing. The “positive” in this case included the direct testimony of a first-hand witness as well as text/phone messages. This is testimony that would be admissible in a court of law. And, no, first-hand eyewitness testimony is NOT circumstantial evidence. It is considered direct evidence.

    In all probability, the entire punishment and proceeding will stand up in court. A-Rod will get nowhere. Judges are loathe to interfere in collectively bargained proceedings like this involving an arbitrator unless something sticks out as being highly irregular.

    Again, he got the long suspension because he ALSO tried to interfere with MLB’s official investigation.; You keep mentioning just the drug offense, but it was much more than that!

    As for Selig, what relevancy would his testimony provide in regard to whether or not A-Rod actually took banned PEDs???? Whether it is a judicial proceeding or a collectively bargained employee-employer one, you do NOT have the right to call just anyone you want to the witness stand. That person has to have relevant testimony to provide.

  • Peter S

    Pretty much sums up my feelings about all this. I would add one point to your article:

    If the writers choose not to elect cheaters and eleged cheaters, then the managers should suffer the same fate. Especially LaRussa and Torre. Both benefited from known users.

    But more importantly, Bud Selig should be barred from HOF consideration as well as the union and any owners of the Steriod era as they all fattened their pockets off these users.

  • Captain America

    Michael good article.

    I just take issue with the role of MLB vs the role of law enforcement.

    MLB is a brand an entity that ferociously protects it’s value.

    Law enforcement is charged with policing illegal activities.

  • Tom

    Some of this is incredible

    1) This isn’t court. There are no “constitutional rights.” This is a collectively bargained process that the players instituted.

    2) Why didn’t Arod testify? If I’m as innocent as he is there is no way I’m walking out of a hearing and instead going on a radio show to answer softball questions.

    3) In a historic first – he’s SUING his own union! The union saw all the evidence at hand, something we haven’t seen yet and advised him to shut up and take a suspension. Instead, because Arod’s surrounded by yes men who are more than happy to take his money he ignores their counsel and buries himself. Oh well

    4) For those of you killing Selig, how many commissioners in other sports actively take down the best player in the sport? How would this make baseball look good PR wise? If MLB wins their best player is gone and forever tainted. If MLB loses they lose further credibility. Selig did the right thing here

    5) MLB cannot stop the government from convicting and sentencing Boesch. It’s not like Selig has pardoning powers or is the King of Spain. He obtained the evidence he needed, paid for it and won. And if Boesch really sold drugs to kids he’s going to jail too! It’s a win win!

  • jason bay

    MLB cannot prosecute Bosch but they did get him to incriminate himself. It is now up to the Federal prosecuters to bring charges and prosecute him.

    What will be your next complaint, that David Wright didn’t place him under citizens arrest?

    LMFIAOOO

  • BronxMets

    WOw.
    Maybe if you watched the interview it would be different.You chose not to watch it and it shows in your post.
    So how did going after the Balco boys work out as far as cleaning up the sport? Think that through and maybe you will have your answer as to why they dealt with Bosch.
    BTW, since when aren’t drug dealers believable? Why is it so hard for you to think he would tell the truth. Now why wouldn’t he be the logical person to go to for information about ARODS PED use since HE IS THE ONE THAT SOLD THEM TO HIM. Who should they have spoken to Madonna? His Mother? Cameran Diaz?
    You don’t think MLB checked his story out? WHat about the pages and pages of documents they have to back up EVERYTHING HE SAID.
    But then again you didn’t watch the interview.
    Now why did they go after AROD and not the dealer. Its simple dealers can be replaced MLB players cannot. AROD is a 350M dollar machine. The idea since testing isn’t working is to humiliate the biggest one of them all to put fear into everyone else so they will not do PEDS.
    Now why would they do that? BECAUSE THE TESTING ISNT WORKING………….where have you been under a rock?????? Not one of the other 13 guys didn’t fail a drug test but guess what they got caught and willingly agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed TO THE PUNISHMENT. why? Maybe MLB had a MOUNTAIN of evidence against them. Did it ever dawn on you why their Union DID NOTHINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.
    ANd if you did watch the interview last night you wouldn’t have to ASSUME if AROD was guilty you would have seen some of the evidence. But be ignorant you can always claim your stupid comments were because you didn’t know.
    As far as his rights once again you come across ignorant. Do you know anything about the CBA? The players AGRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDD to this process This wasn’t a witch hunt they AGREED to this process. So once again what are you talking about.
    Don’t let facts logic or the truth get in your way of ranting.

  • BronxMets

    what an idiot go read up on CBA’s and come back when you are a little more educated.

  • BronxMets

    Maybe MLB proved it. Did that ever pas through your mind? Why do you only need a test. BTW, go through life with everything having to be in black and white and see how far you get. BTW everyone doesn’t pick on OBama because he is black everyone says stuff about him because he is a horrible president. He actually makes GWB look brilliant.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Very good post.

  • Taskmaster4450

    Sure they can. They have the testimony and supporting evidence that ARod was prescribed and took banned substances from the guy who gave them to him. It is an open and shut situation. Bosch admitted to selling ARod the PEDs (to the tune of $12K/month), to telling him when to take it, and to drawing blood from ARod to determine when they left his system. There was also evidence to support the claims.

    Someone doesnt need a gun and an eye witness to be convicted of murder yet you wont convict in this instance without a blood test. There are other forms of proof.

  • BronxMets

    Thanks

  • Taskmaster4450

    Selig is trying to make up for more than a decade of incompetence. He looked the other way for most of his time as commissioner. The Steroid Era was his baby and it actually took Congress before he did anything.

    Plus he was the one who instilled inter-league play which I detest and put in the dopey rule about the AS game affecting the WS.

  • BronxMets

    Oh AROD didn’t have his misinformed supporters outside the courtroom?

  • BronxMets

    The NBA took Jordan down otherwise I like your post.

  • BronxMets

    I don’t like this article you do that’s ok. I feel the exact same way you do about the managers. Torre sat in the middle of a room full of users. He did NOTHING.

  • BronxMets

    legal protection?

  • BronxMets

    took one sec idiot………

  • BronxMets

    if there actions make 750 baseball players not take roids then I think it worked and was a great decision.

  • BehindTheBag

    The only downside is that the Yankees get the $26M or whatever back that they owe A-Rod. They ought to be forced to have it count against their luxury tax figure, and have to donate it to a charity for kids who don’t read good. I’m just not comfortable with any situation in life in which the Steinbrenners are the big winners.

    But other than that, I’m glad A-Rod is going down, and I’m glad MLB bagged a big buck for cheating, hopefully it will make others take pause.

  • BronxMets

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz for the 187533928919 time learn what a CBA is.

  • BehindTheBag

    Are you a professional conspiracy theorist?

    As to why the unprecedented punishment term, it’s because A-Rod did the crime, AND THEN covered it up. In most situations in life, that’s only going to make things worse…and that’s what happened here.

  • BronxMets

    so let me get this straight Angelo thinks AROD is going to prove he is innocent by NOT taking the stand.

  • BronxMets

    you are incorrect the poster stated they should go after Bosch,

  • mitchpetanick

    I work in a union environment, and for the union to not step in doesn’t surprise me. All a union is required to do is protect it’s members from a voilation of the collectively bargained contract with the employer.
    It’s not a witch hunt if Arod took it upon himself to not accept the original suspension which then turned this into a full blown investigation. I believe the union recommended accepting the suspension which means they had probably negotiated on behalf of the players to squash everything – I see this all the time. By not going along with the union recommendation Arod was pretty much on his own at that point.

    I also hate to say it, but once you agree to work for a company or organization, your constitutional rights don’t necessarily exist. I think the following list comes into play with regard to the A-Rod siuation and you can read the rest at http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2011/05/03/10-workplace-rights-you-think-you-have-but-dont/

    “I exercised my First Amendment rights.”

    If you work for a private employer, you really shouldn’t have done that. Only government employees have free speech protections, and those are very limited. Otherwise, you can be fired in most states for your speech (including political speech) in the workplace or outside the workplace. You can’t be fired for speaking on behalf of coworkers in order to improve work conditions or for objecting to something illegal, but be very careful to make sure you’re protected before you speak out.

    “My boss invaded my privacy.”

    Your boss can read your work e-mails and monitor your Internet usage at work. If your employer is going to listen into or record phone calls, there are some legal restrictions. You also have privacy rights in your medical information. There is no federal law protecting your social security number, but California and New York do offer limited protection against employers displaying your number.

    “I was retaliated against after I complained.”

    Oh no. Tell me you didn’t write a long letter complaining about your boss being unprofessional or incompetent. There is no law prohibiting an employer from retaliating against you for reporting or objecting to policy violations, ethical violations, bullying, or the fact that your boss is a jerk. If you do something that puts you in a legally protected category, you may be protected from retaliation. Examples would be objecting to discrimination, making a worker’s comp claim, or taking Family and Medical Leave.

    “I was discriminated against because my boss didn’t like me.”

    If your boss is discriminating against you for being you, that isn’t illegal. Favoritism, nepotism, and being obnoxious are not illegal. Discrimination based on age, pregnancy, race, sex, religion, national origin, disability, color and genetic information are illegal. In some states, other categories such as sexual orientation, gender identity, marital status, and being a domestic violence victim are protected.

    “I not only want to sue my company — I want to sue my boss.”

    As much as it may be satisfying to sue your ex-boss personally, you probably can’t. Federal and many state discrimination laws, Family and Medical Leave Act (in some states the courts disagree on this), and most other employment laws simply don’t allow it. One major exception is wage and hour violations. Some state discrimination laws do hold supervisors liable for violations. But what’s the point? Unless they’re rich, you probably won’t be able to collect anyhow.

  • BronxMets

    how did they defend him?

  • BehindTheBag

    If you are a lawyer, thank you for living down to the stereotype.

  • BronxMets

    why not? if what they did makes 740 ballplayers not take roids you don’t think it was worth it.

  • BronxMets

    so when Sammy the bull testified against john gotti that was a bad thing.

  • BronxMets

    so 13 guys looked at the evidence said no mas (which actually most of them probably said) AROD said screw you and somehow MLB was wrong for going after AROD.

  • Tom

    Thanks except Jordan wasn’t officially suspended, he “retired.”

  • BronxMets

    I didnt imply either

  • BronxMets

    well you know what the neighborhood priest wasn’t available to help MLB so they went with the next best thing………….ARE YOU KIDDING ME????????? School teachers were not available either.

  • Evan Esswein

    Wow I am really sick of this whole story and the PED thing in general. This is not little league this is and I stress PROFESSIONAL baseball. Um when you have multi-million dollar incentive anybody would do what these players did and will continue to it regardless of a crackdown.

    Simply look at other sports NFL literally there are dozens of players suspended a year for PEDS yet it’s almost a blip on the radar compared to baseball.

    If you want to change the game change the culture from the bottom up starting in little league. One needs only look to the drug policy in this country to see that top down suppression doesn’t work–but education does.

    So for all of those who say AROD is the scum of the earth for cheating just remember there are plenty others who did it and never have been caught whom you will revere simply because you don’t know better. You want this to change change the culture only internal policing by the players will clean up the game not this crap.

    One only needs to see the disaster which is the baseball HOF to see that this is NOT WORKING!

  • Angelo Darden

    ” Maybe if you wa5tched the interview it would be different.You chose not to watch it and it shows in your post”
    Sorry, but a softball interview is no substitute for courtroom testimony, with cross examination subject to perjury. When he’s in front of a jury you’ll have my attention.

    “So how did going after the Balco boys work out as far as cleaning up the
    sport? Think that through and maybe you will have your answer as to why
    they dealt with Bosch.”
    The only thing that came out of the BALCO investigation is the conviction of Marion Jones on check kiting and Barry Bond’s conviction of obstruction of justice. Jones’ admission came with the plea deal for check kiting. So the steroid admission was an afterthought. As for Bonds, the US Attorney’s office couldn’t get a conviction for steroid use even after locking up the main witness to get him to testify. Not exactly a “big win” there.

    “BTW, since when aren’t drug dealers believable? Why is it so hard for you to think he would tell the truth.”
    Well, paying of all legal fees, a “good word” to federal prosecutors and payment for his testimony. A competent defense attorney in front of a jury could call his credibility into question. How many times did John Gotti’s attorney do such a thing? Now think about this; you have as a witness somebody who is under both federal and state indictment against somebody WHO NEVER TESTED POSITIVE and who has the presumption of innocence on his side. Your animus is showing.
    ” Now why wouldn’t he be the logical person to go to for information
    about ARODS PED use since HE IS THE ONE THAT SOLD THEM TO HIM. Who
    should they have spoken to Madonna? His Mother? Cameran Diaz?”
    Why not trust their own testing system that they put in place? What they’re saying is that THEIR OWN SYSTEM DOESN’T WORK. So now they’re paying someone to testify on their behalf. Mind you, he’s being PAID to testify. He made the same offer to A-Rod who turned him down, now if A-Rod had something to hide, why not pay the guy to keep quiet? Maybe because…he’s innocent? Just a thought.
    ” You don’t think MLB checked his story out? WHat about the pages and pages of documents they have to back up EVERYTHING HE SAID.”
    What I saw were notes in code and cryptic texts. They could mean whatever he wants them to mean. And if MLB is footing the bill, they’ll be what they want him to say they mean.

    ” Now why did they go after AROD and not the dealer. Its simple dealers can be replaced MLB players cannot.”
    No, dealers (that we know of) don’t play in MLB and are not subject to it’s rules and policies. However, dealers are subject to criminal law of which interference in a criminal investigation is crime. When MLB purchased the testimony of Bosch and his “evidence” they interfered with a state investigation which would have likely resulted in a conviction of a “drug dealer”. But no, getting A-Rod was far more urgent than that. So MLB is not only paying a “drug dealer” they’re keeping him out of jail too. Gee, I wonder why?
    ” AROD is a 350M dollar machine.”
    Oh, that’s why. The Yankees want to get out from under a contract, and they want MLB to do it’s “dirty work”. Now I get it; assassinate somebody’s reputation, find a pretext to get out of an disadvantageous contract with a bogus policy and keep your hands clean.
    ” The idea since testing isn’t working is to humiliate the biggest one of
    them all to put fear into everyone else so they will not do PEDS. ”
    “Everybody” who? The owners? the GM’s? They’re the ones who were in a position to know what was going on and did nothing about it while the baseballs were flying and the turnstiles were turning. How many of them are going to be suspended? Oh that’s right, none. But they’ll wag a finger a finger at A-Rod while they pocket the cash his production brought to the park and the games they won.
    “Now why would they do that? BECAUSE THE TESTING ISNT WORKING………….where have you been under a rock??????”
    So if the testing isn’t working, why the pretense? You are admitting that the policy is a farce. So why is MLB and Selig going “all in” with a policy they know doesn’t work? Because it’s for show. They want to show the world that they’re “cleaning up” the sport despite the fact they profited from it. Like Captain Renault from Casablanca; “I’m shocked that there’s gambling going on at this establishment (pocketing the winnings)”

    ” Not one of the other 13 guys didn’t fail a drug test but guess what
    they got caught and willingly agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed TO THE PUNISHMENT.
    why?”
    Of the 13; 2 were free agents, 5 were in the minor leagues, one is on the disabled list, three were All-Stars (one of which just signed contract with a new team for big money). So in the case of the minor leaguers, they’ll never see daylight again anyway. The three All-Stars, will be back by June and one will have a big check anyway and Braun, most likely will be booed for a while until the Brewers start contending anyway. But you see Selig didn’t have a hardon for him even after he dissed the process, I wonder why that was? Could it be that Selig used to own the Brewers? Conflict of interest? By the way, only one question mark is necessary.
    “Maybe MLB had a MOUNTAIN of evidence against them. Did it ever dawn on you why their Union DID NOTHINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.”
    The players themselves waived appeals; so the union couldn’t do anything at that point. Just like when you sign your credit card agreement, you agree to arbitration instead of going to court. Dumb,but that’s their choice.

    “ANd if you did watch the interview last night you wouldn’t have to
    ASSUME if AROD was guilty you would have seen some of the evidence”

    No, what you saw, was the story going over what MLB presents as evidence. Mind you, nobody’s under oath and Scott Pelley is not exactly a defense attorney cross examining the evidence. There’s no discovery rule for TV interviews. So they can pretty much present whatever they want. But wasn’t this the same show that was discredited for it’s Benghazi reporting? Just saying.

    “But be ignorant you can always claim your stupid comments were because you didn’t know.”

    English isn’t your first language I see. Perhaps if you diagrammed your sentences you could structure them a whole lot better.

    “As far as his rights once again you come across ignorant. Do you know
    anything about the CBA? The players AGRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDD
    to this process This wasn’t a witch hunt they AGREED to this process”

    MLB also agreed to follow the policy under the Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program which specifies certain penalties and treatment provided a player is convicted or tests positive for using a banned substance. But question remains, A-Rod passed all of the tests he was subjected to. So what cause of action does MLB have? All they have is notes from the owner of closed lab who had confidential medical records which he used to blackmail a former client. So MLB consorts with drug dealers and blackmailers and A-Rod is “dirty”? Strange bedfellows there, pal. Do you have a problem with usage of English? Last I looked “agreed” had only 3 “e’s” and one “d”. You are aware that there’s a “spell check” feature, aren’t you?

    “Don’t let facts logic or the truth get in your way of ranting.”
    I wouldn’t if you demonstrated the latter and engaged in the former.

  • BronxMets

    Dude get a clue. According to the way you look at things Bosch and AROD walk. Nice.

  • BronxMets

    Strange bedfellows there, pal. Do you have a problem with usage of English? Last I looked “agreed” had only 3 “e’s” and one “d”.
    ROFL

  • Benny

    ” Do you have a problem with usage of English?”

    Now that’s just hilarious coming from you! You’re the biggest botcher of the English language on here.

    “Last I looked “agreed” had only 3 “e’s” and one “d”.”

    LMFAO!!! “Agreed” only has 2 “e’s,” not 3!

  • BronxMets

    Idiot read the post i was reposting his statement fool

  • BronxMets

    Have some coffee lightweight

  • BronxMets

    So you are saying Piazza did steroids

  • Benny

    HA! Fair enough…

  • Benny

    Will do…

  • BronxMets

    Youre a good man

  • Biggle Boy

    Yeah, and I hadn’t even reminded Angelo that A-Rod has already lied about PEDs! In 2007, he told Katie Couric he never took them. Then in 2009 he told Peter Gammons he did take them in 2001-03. So if A-Rod takes the stand in Federal court, any lie carries the possibility of perjury, and prison.

  • Peter S

    It’s a joke…I want the $10,000 or so I spent at Shea and CitiField since 1998 to watch Piazza. It’s a joke that these owners made billions off of fans and now are turning this into “steroid” issue. It’s a money issue. They didn’t want to ban steroids and PEDs bc it hurt attendance, which is a Jone bc most baseball fans love a 3-2, 2-1 type game.

  • Evan Esswein

    Not exactly…but if thats what you took out of it go you bro

  • kw_all

    dumb article. facts are missing manipulated and many things are false.
    if you reply to me i will at length detail your inaccuracies.
    i will pass on reading you michael

  • DAngelo136

    I’m a former union steward, why don’t you cite from the CBA the part that supports your contention. Or are you ‘fraidy scared that you might be shown to be short on your knowledge?

  • DAngelo136

    Behind, I believe in “justice”; you know, that concept that the Constitution is supposed to protect? Now I don’t know about you, but a contractual agreement is supposed to mean what it says, any deviation from that contract or violation is against the contractual agreement and whatever damage is inflicted by one party is subject to a lawsuit-which last time I looked, is perfectly legal by law. Now if he tested positive, as the CBA calls for, then there’s no argument. But since he didn’t then what’s the cause of action? This isn’t “Minority Report” and no one can be prosecuted for a “thought crime”. I notice on that issue of testing you’re doing an awful amount of shuffling on that. Well, put up or shut up,

  • BehindTheBag

    And there’s nothing in footballs regs that says if accused of murder you get suspended…so Hernandez should still be a proud member of the patriots.

    I can’t stand apologists. ARod is guilty as sin. Even his own union knows it.

  • DAngelo136

    ” A non-analytical positive means someone is deemed to have positively taken PEDs due to evidence other than a test. ” Which is what? Whatever the commissioner deems it to be, that’s what. This was exactly why Marvin Miller and Donald Fehr resisted testing; because they were skeptical that MLB would EVER play by the rules as they observed with the NFL and it’s policies.

    Miller and the MLBPA had proposed to then commissioner Ubberoth a plan where there would be a panel of doctors and experts who would test and examine the results and make their recommendations. To which Ubberoth and the owners initially agreed to, but then reniged on. So now we have this Rube Goldberg system in place that for reasons unknown to me or any union negotiator worth his salt that puts the sole discretion in the hands of the Commissioner. And sure enough, they’re using it as a blunt object to run a guy out of the game with it.

    “The “positive” in this case included the direct testimony of a first-hand witness as well as text/phone messages. This is testimony that would be admissible in a court of law”

    You guys use “court of law” whenever it’s convenient and avoid it when it’s not. You see, if indeed it was a court of law, which has a JURY impaneled, instead of an arbitrator, a defense attorney might take a different tack in cross examination tactics that would serve to impeach a witness. One such fact like Bosch tried to blackmail Rodriguez with his so called “information” (http://riveraveblues.com/2013/06/report-bosch-tried-to-extort-a-rod-before-turning-to-mlb-88317/) Here’s a pertinent passage: ” In return for cooperating with the investigation, MLB will drop their lawsuit against Bosch, cover any legal bills and civil liability, and provide him with bodyguards. Trying to extort Alex before rolling over for the league doesn’t exactly help Bosch’s credibility here. This is some shady business.”

    Any prosecutor engaging in that behavior would not only have his witness impeached but also be up on ethics violations as well. But like you said; “this is not a court of law” so shenanigans like this can be allowed. By the way, isn’t this the same tack George Steinbrenner used to try to get dirt on Dave Winfield by using Howie Spira some time ago? So much for the “integrity of the game” when it comes down to money, right?

    ” Again, he got the long suspension because he ALSO tried to interfere with MLB’s official investigation.; You keep mentioning just the drug offense, but it was much more than that!”

    So he “interfered” with MLB “official” investigation? Again, it’s not a court of law until it is. MLB has no subpoena power and last that I looked, nobody can be compelled to testify against himself for any reason. So Selig and MLB are just selling woof tickets on that bullshit.

    “As for Selig, what relevancy would his testimony provide in regard to whether or not A-Rod actually took banned PEDs?”

    Why can’t A-Rod confront his accuser? If Selig brought the action based on his position as Commissioner, why can’t he answer in a closed proceeding? Why not call A-Rod’s bluff and be done with it? Why can’t he answer for himself why he took the actions that he took? If a President of the United States can be made to answer for a blow job, the Commissioner can answer for a screw job.

  • DAngelo136

    ” Your arguments are all based off of our federal judiciary. Which are perfectly valid. Except this is not federal court”
    The differences are that 1.the finder of fact is not a judge 2. there’s no jury. 3. the discovery rules do not apply here. 4. the standard of the finding is not “beyond reasonable doubt” but “preponderance of the evidence” which translates to “more likely than not” If you’ve ever been to traffic court, you’ve likely experienced it. And how many times have people left without paying some kind of fine? Exactly.

  • DAngelo136

    I’m not. But if you think I am, thanks for the compliment.

  • BehindTheBag

    I guess guilty people deserve someone to argue on their behalf too.

  • DAngelo136

    So, why don’t you inform us what one is? BTW, I’m a long time union member and former shop steward. So why don’t you enlighten us with your brilliance.

  • DAngelo136

    ” so let me get this straight Angelo thinks AROD is going to prove he is innocent by NOT taking the stand.”

    No, I’m saying that MLB by their own policy has no cause of action. If you want to invoke the “non-analytical positive” then that basically means, “the commissioner can invoke whatever reason he wants to” And they’re not even consistent with the policy. Remember Ron Washington, the manager for the Texas Rangers? He tested positive and what happened? http://bleacherreport.com/articles/364887-ron-washington-ripping-larger-holes-in-mlbs-drug-testing-program

    Under the agreement, A-Rod would only be subjected to a 50 game suspension-that’s it. But now why are they counting 3 years worth for one incident, even if you take MLB’s word for it? This is why Miller and Fehr never agreed to testing suggested by the owners; the owners would never be consistent nor would it be in the players interest regarding their health. The whole process is a sham designed to be a p.r. fig leaf to placate Washington (as if they don’t more pressing matters) and the fan base.

  • DAngelo136

    ” Yeah, and I hadn’t even reminded Angelo that A-Rod has already lied about PEDs! In 2007, he told Katie Couric he never took them. ”
    So you’re upset that he lied to Katie Couric about it on a “puff piece” interview. I guess you must have gone ballistic when it was revealed that Dylan Davies lied to Lara Logan about what happened at Benghazi. Oh that’s right, it’s not about your precious “national pastime”. Never mind that somebody involved with national security lied; A-Rod lied to a journalist who hasn’t been relevant in 20 years and that just shakes up your trust. Grow up, please.

  • DAngelo136

    “Presumed innocent until proven guilty” It’s one of those pesky dictums you find in our justice system along with “habeus corpus” and the right against self incrimination. For all the yammering I hear about our veterans fighting for these rights and the protests against the “gummint” spying on people, you sure are quick to surrender them because you don’t like the person. Have to break this to you; everybody is entitled to the same rights, regardless of your like or dislike of them. They apply the same ( at least in theory) to everybody. Wonderful thing, that Constitution.

  • Biggle Boy

    Dude, I’m far from upset about lies told to Katie Couric. I just pointed out that A-Rod’s veracity is called into question. And the one who is going ballistic here is you, bringing politics into a sports dialogue. Grow up yourself, that is if you are even old enough to vote.

  • DAngelo136

    “Please don’t dodge. ”

    I’m not. If someone has the evidence to prove his guilt, then I don’t have to believe; i’ll be convinced. See how that works?

    “Tell me what you believe – do you believe that A-Rod, in accordance with the mountain of evidence MLB has procured (much of it way more than simply the word of a drug dealer), was a drug cheat?”

    There is no “mountain of evidence” what you have are cryptic notes and text messages. All I’m asking for is the evidence that MLB set as the standard; a positive drug test. What’s so unreasonable about that?
    Secondly, show me in the rule book where enhancing performance is not allowed. There’s no rule against LASIK surgery to improve your vision; no rule against taking energy bars, or in the case of Dock Ellis, taking LSD and amphetamines before pitching a no hitter. All it is is a policy, a policy that’s not rigidly enforced or consistently followed by the way. It has about as much force as the “no refund” policy in your local clothing store. But if someone made enough of a stink about it, they somehow ignore the policy. So how is it “cheating”?

  • DAngelo136
  • DAngelo136

    ” Sure they can. They have the testimony and supporting evidence that ARod was prescribed and took banned substances from the guy who gave them to him.”

    How do we know he gave it to him? He says he did, A-Rod says he didn’t. Now unless there’s a witness to what transpired, then it comes down to credibility. Since in your eyes, neither one is credible, then A-Rod carries the day because of the “presumption of innocence” or at least in theory.

    ” It is an open and shut situation. Bosch admitted to selling ARod the PEDs (to the tune of $12K/month), to telling him when to take it, and to drawing blood from ARod to determine when they left his system.”

    The only thing that confirms what he (Bosch) says are the notes and texts that only he knows the meaning of. Now given that MLB is footing the bill for his testimony and his legal expenses, do you think he’d be incentivzed to say anything that would contravene MLB’s contentions? In a jury trial, that would be something a defense lawyer would raise.

    “Someone doesnt need a gun and an eye witness to be convicted of murder yet you wont convict in this instance without a blood test.”

    You think not? Well, there’s a guy name O.J. that I know… Any prosecutor will tell you, you’ve got to have evidence or even a 1st year law student will make you look stupid in front of a jury. In the instance of an arbitrator the standard is a lot lower, that’s why companies love them. Think about that the next time you’re in traffic court. How many times do you see anybody getting away with NOT paying a fine?

  • BehindTheBag

    I asked what you believe, and that’s your answer? Pathetic.

  • BronxMets

    Rofl. Dumbass why would i need to know super details to kniw what ut is. But why dint you enlighten all if us genius

  • BehindTheBag

    Oh brother. I seriously can’t be bothered to try to educate you on the difference between LASIK and steroids.

  • BehindTheBag

    Once again it escapes you that this is a private matter in baseball. Not a public matter in our judiciary. Get over yourself.

  • BronxMets

    Mmmm no. Youre not paying attention. He is being suspended for dealing with a drug dealer and impeding the investigation and also using

  • DAngelo136

    “All a union is required to do is protect it’s members from a voilation(sic) of the collectively bargained contract with the employer.”

    Not exactly. Here’s the SEIU’s explaination of the purpose of a union: “Labor unions are required by law to represent all workers in the unit fairly and completely. This includes non-members as well as your union members. It’s legally known as the duty of fair representation or DFR.”. So the MLBPA is legally bound to protect the rights of Alex Rodriguez fairly and completely as well.

    “”My boss invaded my privacy.”

    “Apples and oranges”. In this instance, MLB gathered information based on the investigation against the Biogenesis lab which started from a whistleblower report. Many of the clients of the clinic are from the MMA, NBA, and MLB of which there were names on the client list. Now the clinic had been suspected of selling steroids to minors, which is illegal, but the conflagration occurs with the MLB investigation into violations of it’s policy. Now Tony Bosch approached Alex Rodriguez and offered to give him his notes in exchange for cash for his legal fees, A-Rod refused the blackmail offer, but MLB accepted the offer, from a admitted liar, drug dealer and blackmailer in exchange for them to drop their suit against him, provide personal security, a “good word” for him in the federal prosecution and legal fees. Now I ask, why give him all of that, when they could have persuaded A-Rod to take the 50 game suspension as warranted by the policy and doled out to the other players on the list instead of the 211 game suspension? Why was he singled out for the unprecedented punishment?

    ” “I was discriminated against because my boss didn’t like me.”

    If A-Rod could show that MLB has engaged in a pattern of behavior that shows pretext to discriminatory behavior by holding him out for special treatment other than anyone else, a case could be made for discrimination. If the other Hispanic players had not take the deal and fought along with A-Rod their collective cases could have garnered some merit.

    “I not only want to sue my company — I want to sue my boss.”

    Well, he’s not suing his boss; he’s suing the organization of which his club is a member of. In this instance MLB can pretty much make up whatever rules it wants due to the fact that it is a protected monopoly. As such, they can deem him ineligible to play, now you’d think that since this affects the Yankees in particular, they’d be involved in this. But because of the policy they don’t have to pay him and since it’s pretty much common knowledge they want out of the contract obligation to A-Rod, they could invoke the personal conduct clause in the contract and invalidate it, thus releasing them from paying whatever monies he has coming from them. So MLB is doing the dirty work for the Yankees in essence.

  • DAngelo136

    Given that he was an admitted murderer, used to bring down a racketeer and then went on to be a ecstasy dealer. You’d have to question the value of the exchange. http://tech.mit.edu/V120/N8/Mob.8w.html

  • DAngelo136

    Ok, missed one. But I noticed that you don’t have an answer to what I had written. You should take the log out of your eye before you see the speck in mine.

  • DAngelo136

    Not exactly. As long as A-Rod tests negative or is convicted of any crime, there’s no cause of action on MLB’s part. As for Bosch, because MLB bought his “evidence” they hindered a state investigation so that’s on them. And they still are footing his legal bills. So if he isn’t convicted of a federal crime, you’d have a known drug dealer, liar and blackmailer benefiting and the player who never tested positive being harmed. Where’s the justice in that? But nobody’s interested in justice at this point. The Yankees want out from under his contract; the Commissioner wants to enhance (no pun intended) his legacy, the press wants a good story and the fans get….?

  • DAngelo136

    ” Non-analytical positives have been a part of the CBA for a long long time, and have been used before”

    No it hasn’t it’s only been in the present CBA. Both Miller and Fehr never agreed to any drug testing. And both of them took a beating in the press for it. Even now the Yankee flack writer (IMHO), Bill Madden is trying to peddle the case against Marvin Miller induction into the HoF because he resisted drug testing. [http://deadspin.com/5963780/marvin-miller-the-man-who-beat-some-sense-into-baseball]

    The reason A-Rod’s suspension is so long is not JUST because he took banned PEDs, but because he also attempted to thwart MLB’s official investigation and lied to them under questioning.”

    I call “bullshit” on that one. Baseball is not a legal body, it’s not a court (as many of you keep pointing out) so nobody is compelled to give evidence against himself. So if he denies the allegations, MLB is calling it “lying and “thwarting” because he’s taking his own confidential records back from a place where he was a client. But yet MLB was willing to buy the same information from the same person they were suing to get that information from. Does that make sense to you? They knew that they probably wouldn’t prevail in the lawsuit so they made Tony Bosch “an offer he couldn’t refuse” as it were.

    “Ryan Braun did not attempt to buy and destory evidence or buy off witnesses”

    But he dissed the whole process the FIRST TIME he tested positive. So why isn’t his admission now counted as confirmation of the first test and now subjected to 100 games as per the CBA? How come the “non-analytical positive” doesn’t kick in here? Is it because he plays for the Milwaukee Brewers, the team the Commissioner formerly owned? Where’s the consistency here in the policy enforcement?

    “There are no constitutional rights being trampled here.”

    “Self incrimination, confidentiality agreements, post facto punishments” only a herd of wildebeests would leave fewer trample marks than MLB had on this one.

    “And, in a criminal proceeding you don’t get the right to have just anyone testify. The judge would rule on the relevancy of the testimony.”

    That would be ironed out during the discovery process and even then, it would depend on the scope of what the witness would be testifying to. And there’s always the good old fashioned subpoena.

    ” Since it is unlikely Selig did any of the actual investigative legwork regarding the A-Rod investigation, it is irrelevant what he has to say. Selig’s motives are irrelevant.”

    Since it’s the Commissioner who brought the cause of action, he could be made to testify why he took such actions and when he was made known of what actions were taken and why. I’d love to see ‘ol Allan( bet you didn’t know that’s his given first name) Selig under cross examination, wouldn’t you?

    “The only relevant points are whether A-Rod took banned substances or not and whether the evidence is solid or not.”

    According to the evidence that MLB mandates, the answer that no true Scotsman would deny, would be “no” and “no”.

    “I really don’t understand the apologists for the PEDs cheats.”

    I really don’t understand the A-Rod haters; so I guess that makes us even.

  • DAngelo136

    ” And there’s nothing in footballs regs that says if accused of murder you get suspended…so Hernandez should still be a proud member of the patriots.”

    But he has a contract (remember that?) with the Patriots. And as such in the NFL they have a personal conduct clause in it which they can invoke at anytime to terminate. Just like your boss can terminate you. And legally he doesn’t need a reason.

    “I can’t stand apologists. ARod is guilty as sin. Even his own union knows it.”

    Your choice of the word “sin” is at the heart of my contention with you and and your side. This is not about morality, although you wish that drug users would go to “hell” this is more about commerce than anything else. Even Jesus talked about forgiveness and redemption. Qualities you seem to conveniently forget when it suits you. Here is the Deadspin article on WHY this battle is being fought. (P.S. your side doesn’t come off well in this) Cheers! http://deadspin.com/what-the-dumb-hysteria-over-a-rod-and-peds-is-really-ab-1167255086

  • DAngelo136

    Theres a huge difference between “misinformed” and “deranged” a person can always get more information and become informed. A deranged person remains so regardless of the information received because he sees a different reality.

  • BehindTheBag

    Believe me it wasn’t one

  • BronxMets

    What? You have a job?

  • BronxMets

    What?

  • BronxMets

    Not the point. If embarrasing arod and getting him out of mlb helps get rid if rouds who cares

  • BronxMets

    What are you babbling about now

  • Metro12

    “No it hasn’t it’s only been in the present CBA. Both Miller and Fehr never agreed to any drug testing.”

    Oh, yes it has. It’s been there a long time. It seems you are confused as to what a non-analytical positive is. It isn’t a test. And MLB has long had the ability to discipline players based on evidence other than a test.

    “Baseball is not a legal body, it’s not a court (as many of you keep pointing out) so nobody is compelled to give evidence against himself.”

    Exactly. So the rules of a court don’t apply. MLB can do whatever they want as long as it is within the bounds
    of the CBA. In this case they operated within the broad mandate given to the commissioner by the CBA to discipline A-Rod. And, no, those were NOT A-Rod’s records. They were Bosch’s records. And they don’t come under HIPAA because Bosch and his clinic were not fully licensed medical facilities. The fact that A-Rod was trying to buy Bosch’s records in order to destroy them was an attempt to thwart MLB’s investigation.

    “But he dissed the whole process the FIRST TIME he tested positive. So why isn’t his admission now counted as confirmation of the first test and now subjected to 100 games as per the CBA?”

    Because he didn’t actively try to thwart whatever investigation MLB had going on. He got off on a technicality with good lawyering. Also, it’s likely that incident and his recent suspension are the same doping incident.

    “”Self incrimination, confidentiality agreements, post facto punishments” only a herd of wildebeests would leave fewer trample marks than MLB had on this one.”

    Again, no constitutional rights were trampled here. If you think there were. Be very very specific and enumerate them.

    “That would be ironed out during the discovery process and even then, it would depend on the scope of what the
    witness would be testifying to. And there’s always the good old fashioned subpoena.”

    A judge would not allow a subpoena if he thought there was no relevancy to it. What’s so funny is that some cry about A-Rod not being able to confront his main accuser. But in this case, Bosch IS his main accuser. A-Rod and his lawyers got to confront him. But it wasn’t enough. They wanted to make it into a bigger circus than it already was and go off on irrelevant tangents.

    “Since it’s the Commissioner who brought the cause of action, he could be made to testify why he took such
    actions and when he was made known of what actions were taken and why. I’d love to see ‘ol Allan( bet you didn’t know that’s his given first name) Selig under
    cross examination, wouldn’t you?”

    Everyone knows he took the course of action because there was evidence out in the open that A-Rod had cheated big time with Bosch. Duh! What some of you are asking for is like asking a DA why they investigated a criminal. They do it because there is evidence that person broke the law. And criminals don’t’ get to confront the head DA in court. LOL.

    “According to the evidence that MLB mandates, the answer that no true Scotsman would deny, would be “no” and “no”.”

    Huh? I don’t understand your comment in relation to mine. Are you simply saying A-Rod never took banned substances and the evidence is not solid? If so, I say instead “YES” and “YES” … he did and it is. Or are you
    saying that those are not the only issues?

    “I really don’t understand the A-Rod haters; so I guess that makes us even.”

    This is not about hate for A-Rod, though he is one of the most unlikable players in baseball. It’s about trying to keep cheaters out of the game and keeping the records as clean as possible.

  • Metro12

    “Which is what? Whatever the commissioner
    deems it to be, that’s what”

    Nope. It’s credible direct evidence of the type that would be admissible in a court of law.

    “This was exactly why Marvin Miller and Donald Fehr resisted testing; because they were skeptical that MLB would EVER play by the rules as they observed with the NFL and it’s policies.”

    LOL, are you joking? A test is mostly black and white with no subjectivity in it. If anything, Miller and Fehr should of have been advocating testing and fighting against non-analytical positives. No, Fehr and Miller didn’t want testing because they thought players should be allowed to cheat and artificially raise their salaries. It was all about the money.

    “Miller and the MLBPA had proposed to then commissioner Ubberoth a plan where there would be a panel of doctors and experts who would test and examine the results and make their recommendations.”

    Delay tactics by Miller and the MLBPA. Just implement Olympics-level testing. The level of testing that was available at the time was pretty good. No need to study anything. It was the union that wouldn’t agree to testing and MLB didn’t push it for fear of player strikes.

    “So now we have this Rube Goldberg system in place that for reasons unknown to me or any union negotiator
    worth his salt that puts the sole discretion in the hands of the Commissioner.”

    Huh? No. there is an arbitration process in case you forgot. Any punishment metered out by MLB can be overturned if it is found to be lacking. Selig doesn’t have sole discretion.

    “You guys use “court of law” whenever it’s convenient and avoid it when it’s not.”

    Here’s the huge difference. You and the apologists are calling for “court of law” standards to be applied in A-Rod’s case. I am not. I am merely saying the type of evidence they have on him ALREADY is up to the level that would be required by a court of law.

    “You see, if indeed it was a bcourt of law, which has a JURY impaneled, instead of an arbitrator, a defense
    attorney might take a different tack in cross”

    Yeah, so what? The prosecutor would take a different tact too. The jury would ultimately decide who is
    telling the truth. That is neither here nor there because there was no jury in A-Rod’s case. Only an arbitrator.

    “Any prosecutor engaging in that behavior would not only have his witness impeached but also be up on ethics
    violations as well.”

    Huh? Not true. What MLB did to get evidence in this case is done by law enforcement agencies every day. You see criminals testifying for the prosecution every day, and many times they are believed. What MLB did would NOT be sanctioned in any way if this were a court of law. If you think otherwise, state EXACTLY what you think it is they did that would get them sanctioned.

    “So he “interfered” with MLB “official” investigation? Again, it’s not a court of law until it is.”

    Yes, he tried to. And yes, it is NOT a court of law. I’m glad we agree on that.

    “… nobody can be compelled to testify against himself for any reason.”

    How is that relevant to A-Rod’s case? Or do you just like voicing irrelevant platitudes? This was a CBA hearing too, you know.

    “Why can’t A-Rod confront his accuser?”

    He did! Bosch was in the arbitration hearing and testified. A-Rod got a highly overpriced lawyer to even question him, lol. You do know that Bosch is A-Rod’s main accuser, don’t you?

    “If Selig brought the action based on his position as Commissioner, why can’t he answer in a closed proceeding? Why not call A-Rod’s bluff and be done with it? Why can’t he answer for himself why he took the actions that he took? If a President of the United States can be made to answer for a blow job, the Commissioner can answer for a screw job.”

    What does Selig have to answer to? Why is it relevant in A-Rod’s case? Just because A-Rod and his lawyer wants to put on a circus show, it doesn’t mean everyone should humor him and disrespect the process by allowing him to put one on. In the case of Clinton, he was answering questions in a disciplinary proceeding for an act he allegedly did himself. In Selig’s situation, that wouldn’t be the case even if he did testify. The disciplinary hearing was for A-Rod. Not for Selig. So your Clinton and Selig analogy was stupid and false.

  • Metro12

    Seriously Dangelo? You are trying to equate lasik with steroids? One is a corrective medical procedure, the other is simply an attempt to artificially add to the human body something which is unnatural. SMH

  • Metro12

    Well it certainly is an environment in which the rules of a criminal proceeding generally don’t apply. So spouting off legal platitudes is moot. Unless MLB broke the rules of the CBA or acted outside its parmeters, then a court won’t intervene either. It’s all nice and squishy for some of you to keep citing legal platitudes, but they are irrelevant here.

  • DAngelo136

    Yeah. That’s the best comeback you’ve got? Weak, just like your arguments.

  • BronxMets

    Yeh ok

  • DAngelo136

    Hey, you brought it up pal. Are you shy or afraid of a public arsewhipping?

  • BronxMets

    I know what a car is but dont know how to build ine fooshbag. Grow up

  • DAngelo136

    ” Nope. It’s credible direct evidence of the type that would be admissible in a court of law”
    Not if any prosecutor wanted to win. The issue in a arbitration is only in terms of breach of contract and the standard of proof is much lower than in a court where there’s the presumption of innocence and reasonable doubt working for the defendant. In this instance, MLB lawyers can and have taken A-Rod’s not testifying and presented it as an admission of guilt (unlike Selig’s reluctance)which you’d never get away with in a court of law. So your “court of law” argument would work against you.

    ” LOL, are you joking? A test is mostly black and white with no subjectivity in it.”

    Precisely, my point. But MLB doesn’t have that proof, does it? And that’s what THEY wanted, the ability to test, right? So now, since there’s no positive test result, according to the Joint Testing Agreement, what’s the cause of action on MLB’s part? As far as it goes, there is none. That’s the “hump” you can’t get over no matter how much you try.

    “If anything, Miller and Fehr should of have been advocating testing and
    fighting against non-analytical positives. No, Fehr and Miller didn’t
    want testing because they thought players should be allowed to cheat and
    artificially raise their salaries. It was all about the money.”

    You’re wrong. Miller and Ubberoth had agreed to testing and it was Uebberoth and the owners who pulled out of the deal and tried to substitute their unilateral form of testing (the one that’s in place right now) He and Fehr NEVER trusted them, and they were right [http://www.salon.com/2002/06/20/miller_18/] For the owners, it’s about the money, always has been. Players come and go, but owners will always be there. And YOU will always give them a pass. ” Well, we did work out a drug policy in 1984, or at least I thought we
    had one worked out. Peter Ueberroth, the commissioner of baseball at the
    time, obviously changed his mind after the fact. We agreed on a neutral
    panel of three doctors who were experts on the subjects of drugs and
    drug testing, and agreed on a policy of revolving examination. In the
    spring, everyone would be tested; that part was fairly uniform, and in
    fact it was standard to have spring checks of athletes before drugs even
    became an issue. Beyond that, players would be tested only if there was
    reason to believe that there was drug use. Things were to be handled
    pretty much in the way that legal matters regarding drugs were handled
    in the outside world. In the outside world, if police have reason to
    suspect lawbreaking, they go before a judge and ask for a right to
    search.” -Marvin Miller, Salon.com 6/20/02

    So Metro, you’re nowhere on the law or the facts; so you’d better pound on the table and yell like hell, ’cause that’s all you’ve got left.

  • DAngelo136

    ” Once again it escapes you that this is a private matter in baseball.”
    And yet, MLB leaked records, innuendo, interferes with a state investigation and goes on a nationally televised news show to make it’s case against a well known public figure. You have a strange definition of “private” there.
    “Get over yourself.”
    I have a quirk in my personality; I hate to see people “railroaded” especially by large conglomerates. Call it my “righteousness” part of my personality.

  • Metro12

    “Not if any prosecutor wanted to win.”

    Yes, if they want to win. Every day, prosecutors put criminals and sc**bags on the stand to testify. And they win many cases that way. At any rate, it’s not up to you or me or the prosecutor or the defendant to decide if the witness is viable. It’s up to the jury.

    “In this instance, MLB lawyers can and have taken A-Rod’s not testifying and presented it as an admission of guilt (unlike Selig’s reluctance)which you’d never get away with in a court of law. So your “court of law” argument would work against you.”

    It doesn’t matter what MLB’s lawyer’s say in their arguments. It only matters what the arbitrator used as his criteria for upholding the evidence and punishment. And he did not use A-Rod’s silence as the reasoning. So you’re barking up the wrong tree.

    As for Selig, you are completely wrong on this. Selig has no relevancy to A-Rod’s situation and in a court of law, the judge would not compel someone who had no relevance to testify. You would get nowhere with your argument in a REAL court of law. A real court of law would work against YOUR position.

    “Precisely, my point.”

    Maybe you should explain your point again. In looking back at your previous comment you say both that Miller resisted testing yet he wanted it and was rebuffed by Uberroth. You contradicted yourself there.

    “But MLB doesn’t have that proof,does it? And that’s what THEY wanted, the ability to test, right?”

    Yes, they DO have the proof. They don’t have proof that is a positive test. But they have proof from other evidence that is non-analytical. And of course MLB wanted the ability to test for a long time. But why would that preclude MLB from demanding and wanting the right to ban for non-analytical positives as well? You’re not making any sense. Any authority, be it MLB, the NFL, or local and state law enforcement always wants as many ways to enforce their standards as they can get.

    “what’s the cause of action on MLB’s part? As far as it goes, there is none. That’s the “hump” you can’t get over no matter how much you try.”

    Uh, this has been repeated many times. The cause of the action is a non-analytical positive which is not only within the parameters of the current CBA, but which has been part of the commissioner’s powers since before the current CBA. There is no hump to get over. He was banned for a non-analytical positive which is written into the CBA. The hump you need to get over is lack of logical reasoning.

    “You’re wrong. Miller and Ubberoth had agreed to testing and it was Uebberoth and the owners who pulled out of the deal and tried to substitute their unilateral form of testing (the one that’s in place right now) He and Fehr NEVER trusted them, and they were right [http://www.salon.com/2002/06/2…]”

    Are you joking ? Miller is talking about weed, coke and greenies in the plan you’re talking about. Later in that article, he even says he doesn’t believe in steroids testing. And that was the mid-80s – way before steroids was ever considered a problem in baseball. Geesh. Way to read your own sources!

    Fact is, no one pushed for PEDs testing in the 90s when the problem of steroids first became apparent. Except for a few. Read this article about Rick Helling. He stood up year after year in union meetings calling for action against PEDs abusers and was ignored. by his own union — http://content.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1881350-1,00.html

    “For the owners, it’s about the money, always has been. Players come and go, but owners will always be there. And YOU will always give them a pass.”

    Look, for BOTH the owners and players, it’s always about the money. I don’t give the owners a pass. I say the steroids era was the fault of the owners, players, union, and commissioner’s office. See? Are you willing to say the same and parcel out the blame equally?

    “So Metro, you’re nowhere on the law or the facts; so you’d better pound on the table and yell like hell, ’cause that’s all you’ve got left.”

    Sorry, dAngelo. I just showed how confused you are because you pulled out a Marvin Miller article talking about testing of greenies, weed and coke in the mid-80s when we are talking specifically about steroids/PEDs testing, which wasn’t even on the radar with anyone until at least a decade later. Further, Miller even says in that very article he doesn’t believe in steroids testing. Thanks for proving MY case. It’s you who needs to pound on the table. Because you have
    nothing.

  • Metro12

    Dangelo, there is no evidence that MLB “leaked records” … if you think it exists, prove it and give a link. OTOH, it was said that A-Rod was the one who leaked information about Braun to the media in order to help deflect the spotlight from him. MLB was likely going to grill him about this so I think that is one reason why he walked out of the hearing.

    Regardless of any privacy issue, the point is this proceeding was not in a court of law and the rules of a court of law don’t apply here. That is something that you don’t seem to grasp.

    Also, there is no evidence that MLB’s investigation interfered with a government investigation. If you have
    proof show it. Don’t just repeat what A-Rod’s lawyers say. What a lawyer says is not proof or evidence. That’s the first thing a judge tells the jurors in a trial.

    And, lol, going on a national TV show to explain its case against a player after the arbitrator has already ruled is not against the CBA. There is nothing wrong with that.

  • DAngelo136

    He’s not in federal court, he’s in an arbitration hearing where the issue at hand is whether a contract was in breach or not. The standard is preponderance of the evidence-something to be more likely than not. In this instance, the arbitrator likely found that A-Rod was in breach of the contract and as such is subject to the penalties as warranted by the Joint Testing Agreement
    Now if it were in federal court or any other criminal case as the judge will tell you, the defendant has presumption of innocence and is not compelled to testify against himself. Nor is his refusal to testify to be an indication of guilt. If your logic was to be followed, then I could also argue that Selig’s refusal to testify could be taken as admission of “guilt” as well.
    But Biggle, since there was no positive test, and no conviction, MLB had no cause of action. They then invoked the “non-analytical positive” clause which could mean anything at all, in this case purloined notes from a defunct clinic under state investigation which was used as a pretext to prosecute A-Rod.
    In the long run, this will be more injurious to labor relations to MLB. And not everyone is convinced that it’s effective. But as long as you click your heels 3 times and say:”Testing will clean up the game” then you’ll believe that it is.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ufc/2014/01/14/georges-st-pierre-ufc-drug-testing/4484761/

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanley-h-teitelbaum/its-not-just-about-arod-i_b_3716761.html

    http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2012/01/25/today-in-bullshit-random-drug-testing-not-for-joey-bats/

  • DAngelo136

    ” Dangelo, there is no evidence that MLB “leaked records” … if you think it exists, prove it and give a link.”
    Ok. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/a-rod-new-complaint-mlb-leaked-positive-test-06-article-1.1505772
    On the other hand, remember how MLB said that A-Rod paid to buy information? I wonder who floated that rumor?
    http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/9165418/no-evidence-tying-alex-rodriguez-purchasing-biogenesis-records-sources-say

    “Regardless of any privacy issue, the point is this proceeding was not in
    a court of law and the rules of a court of law don’t apply here. That
    is something that you don’t seem to grasp.”

    Wrong! According to Nolo.com: “Simplified rules of evidence and procedure. The often
    convoluted rules of evidence and procedure do not apply in arbitration
    proceedings — making them less stilted and more easily adapted to the
    needs of those involved. Importantly, arbitration dispenses with the
    procedure called discovery that involves taking and answering
    interrogatories, depositions, and requests to produce documents — often
    derided as a delaying and game-playing tactic of litigation. In
    arbitrations, most matters, such as who will be called as a witness and
    what documents must be produced, are handled with a simple phone call.”
    “Uneven playing field. Some are concerned that the
    “take-it-or-leave-it” nature of many arbitration clauses work in favor
    of a large employer or manufacturer when challenged by an employee or
    consumer who has shallower pockets and less power.” So it was A-Rod versus the full weight of MLB. And unfortunately, MLBPA gave a half-assed effort and it showed. Thus the lawsuit against them.
    ” Also, there is no evidence that MLB’s investigation interfered with a government investigation. If you have
    proof show it.” You sure are a glutton for punishment aren’t you?
    http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/15/mlb-impeded-a-florida-department-of-health-investigation-when-it-bought-biogenesis-docs/

    “And, lol, going on a national TV show to explain its case against a
    player after the arbitrator has already ruled is not against the CBA.
    There is nothing wrong with that”
    But not very prudent. In fact, it may even backfire on Selig, providing sympathy for A-Rod instead.

    http://deadspin.com/get-ready-to-endure-bud-seligs-season-long-victory-lap-1501326827

    http://deadspin.com/60-minutes-presents-the-case-against-mlb-1500126093?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebook&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

    I can do this all day, pal.

  • DAngelo136

    ” Yes, if they want to win. Every day, prosecutors put criminals and
    sc**bags on the stand to testify. And they win many cases that way. At
    any rate, it’s not up to you or me or the prosecutor or the defendant to
    decide if the witness is viable. It’s up to the jury.”
    Go read your state’s Criminal Procedure Laws. Somewhere in there you’ll see in the section called “Rules of Evidence” where in a criminal conspiracy physical evidence alone is not enough, it must be corroborated by witness testimony. Which prosecutors obtain by offering immunity or a reduced sentence, which defense attorney’s bring up to impeach the witness. In this case, it was Anthony Bosch which MLB basically bought testimony from. Again, strange bedfellows there. But the issue is contractual breach, which would explain why Selig won’t show up. It leave him open to testify at Bosch’s upcoming trial, a rather awkward situation-testifying FOR a drug dealer. A Faustian bargain if there ever was one.
    ” It doesn’t matter what MLB’s lawyer’s say in their arguments. It only
    matters what the arbitrator used as his criteria for upholding the
    evidence and punishment. And he did not use A-Rod’s silence as the
    reasoning. So you’re barking up the wrong tree.”
    Check page 22-23 of the Arbitrator’s decison where they stipulate that a.Bosch is a) “drug-dealer” b).Bosch invoked his 5th Amendment privileges regarding his sources and activities with other players and clients who were minors until the deal with MLB in exchange for his testimony. c). The panel acknowledged that there is motivation for a witness to fabricate facts and or to lie on the stand
    d) That the notes were not original and probably were copies and used for his own reference. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/rod-ruling-explained-arbitrator-fredric-horowitz-decided-162-013800428–mlb.html
    “Are you joking ? Miller is talking about weed, coke and greenies in the
    plan you’re talking about. Later in that article, he even says he
    doesn’t believe in steroids testing. And that was the mid-80s – way
    before steroids was ever considered a problem in baseball. Geesh. Way
    to read your own sources! ”
    You didn’t read the article did you? Again Miller said: ” But think about steroids for a moment. Ask yourself with the records
    being set and the tickets being sold, what incentive do the owners have
    for really wanting to end the use of anabolic steroids? Is it simply
    because they care what happens to the players after they retire? Let’s
    just say I’m skeptical. I have to question whether the majority of
    owners really want to institute a system which might cause them to lose
    their star slugger just as, let’s say, the playoffs begin.” Further on the subject: ” For one thing, no one knows how many players are using anabolic
    steroids, but it appears that the clear majority are not. So the
    majority of players would be in favor, it seems to me, of seeing drugs
    banned that gave others an unfair advantage.
    Another reason, of
    course, would be for health reasons, but here we get into a very tricky
    area. I’m hearing all kinds of wild statements in the press about the
    health hazards of the steroids being used. Well, what exactly are we
    referring to? And what is the scientific evidence to back up these
    claims? And are we including what are called “supplements” in this
    judgment? A good start towards a workable drug proposal might be for
    both sides to agree on a joint committee to study all of these
    substances and give us some clear concrete answers. Once we had hard
    evidence, it would be easier to proceed.” and added: ” It simply doesn’t work for the players to sit down and try to think of
    all the things that management would want from them in a drug policy.
    Clearly, the players have to respond to what the owners propose, and,
    frankly, I’ve never seen a serous effort on the part of the owners to
    deal with this problem.”The owners were ok with status quo as long as they had fannies in the seats.

    “Sorry, dAngelo. I just showed how confused you are because you pulled
    out a Marvin Miller article talking about testing of greenies, weed and
    coke in the mid-80s when we are talking specifically about steroids/PEDs
    testing, which wasn’t even on the radar with anyone until at least a
    decade later. Further, Miller even says in that very article he doesn’t
    believe in steroids testing.”

    Neither do I, in fact steroid may not even be the problem as you’d like to believe it is: ” It seems to me that, with the passage of time, more people will come to
    understand that the commissioner’s periodic spasms of self-righteousness
    do not constitute baseball law. It seems to me that the argument that
    it is cheating must ultimately collapse under the weight of carrying
    this great contradiction-that 80% of the players are cheating against
    the other 20% by violating some “rule” to which they never consented,
    which was never included in the rule books, and which for which there
    was no enforcement procedure. History is simply not going to see it that way.

    The end of the day here is about the year 2040, perhaps 2050. It will come upon us in a flash. And, at the end of the day, Mark McGwire is going to be in the Hall of Fame, and Roger Clemens, and Sammy Sosa, and Rafael Palmeiro, and probably even Barry Bonds.
    I am not especially advocating this; I simply think that is the way it
    is. I only hope that, when all of these players are enshrined, they will
    extend a hand up to a few players from the Will Clark division of the
    game.”-Bill James

    As I’ve written earlier, in time, PED usage will be an acceptable part of improving athletic performance.

    And if you still want to hold on to your precious dreams, here’s something to consider:

    http://steroids-and-baseball.com/

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deni-carise/baseball-and-steroids-wha_b_3887380.html

  • Metro12

    “Go read your state’s Criminal Procedure Laws. Somewhere in there you’ll see in the section called Rules …”

    I have no idea how that passage relates to the comment I made – I’ll say it again: prosecutors put lowlifes on the stand every day and WIN in court. A jury decides their veracity – not the defense attorney. Now tell me how your passage relates to what I just said????

    “But the issue is contractual breach, which would explain why Selig won’t show up. It leave him open to testify at Bosch’s upcoming trial”

    That’s not only untrue, it makes zero sense. Selig didn’t show up because he had no direct relevancy to A-Rod’s hearing. If you think he did, please explain it. Also, whether he shows up at A-Rod’s hearing or not has no bearing on whether he would or would not be called to testify at a potential Bosch criminal trial.

    “Check page 22-23 of the Arbitrator’s decison where they stipulate that a.Bosch is a) “drug-dealer” b).Bosch invoked his 5th Amendment privileges …”

    Huh? Do you have reading problems? What you just wrote is in regards to Bosch in particular and does not even mention A-Rod. I’ll repeat my point: The arbitrator did NOT use A-Rod’s silence against him like you claimed. If you think he did, cite the relevant portion of his decision. Not something about Bosch. Yeesh!

    Again, you’re barking up the wrong tree and obviously terribly confused.

    “You didn’t read the article did you? Again Miller said …”

    Yes I did read it, but apparently you did not. Again, he talks about a plan for testing coke, weed and greenies
    in the mid-80s … NOT steroids. So that article has no relevancy to the point you were trying to make in your previous post, which was that Miller advocated a steroids testing plan but was rebuffed by Uberroth. In fact, as I already said in my previous post, in that article, Miller comes out as being against steroids testing, which actually disproves your point. So you disproved yourself! SMH

    “Neither do I, in fact steroid may not even be the problem as you’d like to believe it is …”

    So, you’ve just acknowledged now that Miller in that articles comes out against steroids testing, right? IOW, you’ve just acknowledged that you were wrong when you said he was for it.

    ” It seems to me that, with the passage of time, more people will come to Understand …”

    LOL, so you decide to go off on a tangent and put in a long pro-steroids quote which has no relevancy to (a) A-Rod’s particular case or (b) the discussion you and have been having up to now about it. Huh? Dangelo, I am not here to discuss the broad overall question of whether steroids are an acceptable means to an end in baseball or your personal views on steroids. Stick to the issues.

    But since you brought it up, regarding that long irrelevant passage from James, I will say this: There is no way in hell, heaven or earth that McGwire, Sosa, Clemens or Bonds are inducted into the HOF. Not in 2040. Not ever. And, regarding this:

    “As I’ve written earlier, in time, PED usage will be an acceptable part of improving athletic performance.”

    No it won’t. Not steroids or any type of hormonal
    substance like testosterone. If you truly believe what you wrote there you are delusional.

    Again, please stick to the issues Dangelo. Just don’t plop down long irrelevant quotes from others or your personal opinions on steroids which have no relevancy to the actual points we are discussing about A-Rod’s hearing. I don’t have the time right now. Maybe another day we can go off on such tangents.

  • Metro12

    “Ok. http://www.nydailynews.com/spo..”

    SMH. That is simply an allegation by A-Rod’s lawyer. As I ALREADY said, what a lawyer says (especially someone like Tacopina and his gang, lol) is not fact or evidence. I’ll ask you again, show me proof that MLB leaked documents in this case.

    “On the other hand, remember how MLB said that A-Rod paid to buy information? I wonder who floated that rumor?”

    Leaking information and leaking actual records are two different things. I have no doubt that BOTH sides talked to reporters. But there is no evidence that MLB leaked actual “records” which is what you claimed.

    “Wrong! According to Nolo.com: “Simplified rules of evidence and procedure. The often convoluted rules of evidence and procedure do not apply in arbitration …”

    Uh, Dangelo, are you on drugs? That is not meant as an insult, but as a serious question since you keep proving me right and yourself wrong. I said that A-Rod’s hearing was not a court of law so the “rules of a court of law do not apply” here. You tell me I am wrong, but then cite Nolo.com which essentially says that the rules of a court of a law do not apply in arbitration hearings. You just proved yourself wrong. Thanks!

    “You sure are a glutton for punishment aren’t you? http://hardballtalk.nbcsports….

    Ok, you score 1 point there. But otherwise you are losing badly. LOL.

    Moreover, there is nothing preventing the local authorities in Florida from re-opening their investigation. In fact, if they were really serious about it, they would. I suspect that anonymous quote, however, was from a state official not being truthful and instead trying to cover his butt. But I’ll give you the point anyway. You need it.

    “But not very prudent. In fact, it may even backfire on Selig, providing sympathy for A-Rod instead.”

    Whatever sympathy A-Rod gets out of this whole affair will be a drop in a 50-gallon bucket of venom he has brought against himself due to his own actions. There is no tide to turn in this matter. A-Rod and his entire career and legacy have already been irrevocably swamped and drowned under a tsunami of guilt and evidence.

    “I can do this all day, pal.”

    Be my guest. Just don’t keep going off on irrelevant tangents. Stick to the issues. I’m not here to debate your personal pro-steroid views. Keep them to yourself. I’m here to debate the validity of the process that resulted in A-Rod’s ban. If you want to discuss your personal views on the broad overall pros-cons of steroids in baseball, save that for another day. Or at the very least DAngelo, stop mixing it up with A-Rod’s case. It is irrelevant to A-Rod in particular.

  • Biggle Boy

    D’Angelo, my point had nothing to do with the efficacy of the current MLB drug testing program. I simply said that if the federal court hears his case, he has the choice to testify or not. If he does not, then his motion as the plaintiff will be viewed by the court as less strong. If he does testify and is found to lie, there can be perjury charges .

    Almost every plaintiff in a Federal court case comes forward with his testimony. If the plaintiff refuses to testify, after bringing the suit in court, that will prejudice his case. If nothing else, it’s a matter of human nature with a judge.

    And given A-Rod’s history of a 2007 public denial of ever using PEDs, regardless of what kind of “journalist” sat across from him as the national TV cameras rolled … followed later by reversing himself, with a 2009 national public admission that he did, in fact, engage in PED use … the point is that his credibility in this current matter is in question.

    And if he does testify in a federal court that he has not taken PEDs in the Biogenesis matter, and evidence does, in fact, show him to be lying again, as he did in 2007, then he is at risk of perjury.This is as simple as I can make it for you.

    In any event, I appreciate the calm, rational way that you stated your above reply, and not the shrill, rude manner of your previous response to my comment to another MMO poster. We can continue to disagree on other BB matters, as long as we do so respectfully, please.