7
2013
Would You Have Traded Niese Instead of Dickey for d’Arnaud and Syndergaard?
An article by 
Andy Martino of the Daily News, asks a thought-provoking question in his column this morning:
Would you have rather traded Jonathon Niese, instead of R.A. Dickey, to Toronto for Travis d’Arnaud and Noah Syndergaard?
Turns out that the Mets had that choice according to Martino.
While Niese faced Team Venezuela Wednesday in Port St. Lucie, two people with direct knowledge of last December’s deal told me that the Blue Jays were willing to send the same package to New York in exchange for Niese.
“Toronto has loved Niese for years,” one source said. “They absolutely would have done that.”
The view from here has always been that the Mets should have retained Dickey, and found another way to stock the farm system, but we’ll give equal time to the other perspective. Niese is much younger, lefthanded, and working under a team-friendly contract. At 26, he probably has more years remaining in baseball than the 38-year-old knuckleballer.
That’s kind of difficult to answer. On the one hand you have the reigning Cy Young winner who may be one of the top five pitchers in the game right now, while on the other hand you have a reliable number a solid mid-rotation pitcher who is much younger and has a team friendly contract with four more years remaining on it.
Of course the contract extension Dickey signed is also a huge value considering what other pitchers of his caliber earn.
There really is no wrong answer here, and either way it’s a great deal for the Mets.
But looking at the team now and the lack of a reliable ace it wouldn’t be far-fetched to have kept Dickey and the veteran leadership that comes along with him.
Ironically, if Johan Santana isn’t ready to pitch on Opening Day, it just may be Niece who gets the nod. Hopefully, things go better for Niese than they did for Mike Pelfrey when circumstances forced him into a similar situation.
What do you think?
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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150% Dickey
Hell to the no!! Niese is a 27 y/o lefty under control for several years w/ high upside and his whole career in front of him. Look, I love RA as much as the next Mets fans, he’s a cult hero and will be a fan fave for years to come. But let’s face facts: he’s a 37 y/o pitcher w/ a career year who was traded at potentially his highest value. I’ll follow Toronto, even have a tentative road trip planned around when he’s going to pitch. But it’s time to stop second guessing this deal, and let Niese become a superstar.
Road trip to Toronto to see RA Dickey pitch? Nice…..
I’m hoping to see him at Citi at the ASG – on TV. LOL.
I’m also hoping to see Minnesota this year to see Mike Pelfrey (I have some Stockholm Syndrome w/ him lol)
Ha!
I have a feeling Pelf will do fairly well this year with the Twins. I read somewhere they’re counting on him to be their ‘ace’.
Good for him as I don’t think he was ever going to put it together in NY.
I am still trying to deal with some of the buzz on Ollie P recently regarding how impressive he is said to look.
Mark my words: Oh Pea or Jason Bay will be comeback player of the year
And somewhere lurking in the shadows ready to pounce is John Maine.
Atleast in John Maine’s defense he was plagued with injuries, however he did struggle to go deep into games, I wish Maine worked out better, saw flashes of brilliance from this kid, wish he could of put it all together in a Mets Uni, I was definitely a big supporter of John Maine.
2007 game 161 was a thing of beauty.
he really just needed the one more “out” pitch to shorten ABs. And his shoulder to not self destruct.
the 45 foot full swing single… hated it..
Who cares , Do you want them back???
I’m trying to get tickets to see the Mets Twins at Target Field. It would be sweet if ex-Twin Santana were to face ex-Met Pelfrey.
If Rick Anderson (who is widely regarded among pitching coaches as the “control” guy) can’t fix Pelfrey and his tendency to spit the bit with his command, I don’t think anyone can.
I think Pelf will thrive in MN.
Hell to the No. I must remember that for future inclusion in a post. Like for example should the Mets bring back K-Rod? Hell to the No!
See!! It works everywhere!
I think they made the correct choice in trading Dickey (though time will tell), considering the age, the future salary and the fact Niese is LHP, Dickey will pitch at a higher level, but for how long.
Sorry but I don’t even consider this a debatable question. No way on earth would have I have traded Niese and kept Dickey unless the return was even MORE>
You’re way too late TRS, Martino and Cerrone have already deemed it a debatable question and as such, who am I to disagree with the great ones? I am but a weak voice crying in the wilderness.
Oh I am sure some will disagree. Just for me very seldom do I not see both sides on an issue. This one, I can’t see the other side.
In a word, no.
Hated to see Dickey go but if it was between Niese and Dickey to get that deal done, you keep Niese – as they did, as they should.
I am in the no camp for the same reasons. Niese is under control possibly 6 more years. Even if he pitches like he did last season with improving (which I feel he will improve), it is still a better long term deal. Dickey most likely will not duplicate the incredible season he had last year with a falloff likely.
Of course, the value of the trade is going to depend upon what TDA and Syndergaard produce at the major league level. It is one of those deals that makes sense at the time…we will see the results on the major league fields.
Please, Niese for all his potential has had one good year and that year was equivalant to a good number 3 starter. So you wouldnt trade a number 3 starter for the top catching prospect in the game and a top 20 right handed pitching prospect?????? give me a break. It is nice to be a fan but lets not overate our guys.
There’s no question it had be Dickey, you don’t trade a 27 year lefthander whose signed
for years to come instead of a 38 year old that was unsigned and had one great year under his belt? Even though Niese never had a year like Dickey had last year the mets don’t have
many(one) lefthanded pitchers on the horizen!!
Dickey, Dickey, Dickey.
Niese’s hook might be one of the most underrated pitches in the game. It’s hard to teach a guy to throw a pitch like that, the other stuff in his arsenal can come and go, but when he’s dropping that hammer the guy is phenomenal.
It’s a tough call because Dickey has been lights out for over 2 years now, but if you’re looking at the next 3, 4, 5 years, it would have to be Niese.
That’s funny Matt. This morning I saw someone in the MMO queue working on a post titled, “Why is Jon Niese still underrated?”
I think it’s a great thing that he’s underrated. Means that he’s a secret weapon. Let Niese and his bland personality fly under the radar. That means the Mets are doing something right for once.
Matt, I would bet everything I have that the team is looking at that 3,4,5 year horizon a lot harder than the 1 year!
I don’t buy it. if D’Arnuad and Syndagard is such a great haul as most people on this site think they are, you would give up Niese in a new york minute for it. What if Toronto didnt want Dickey? do you make the trade for Niese. Of course you do
That’s one way of looking at it.
If Niese was the deal breaker and they didn’t wan’t Dickey – do you walk away and go with Thole as your Opening Day catcher and no Syndergaard?
I think you have to get more but then because Niese isn’t a sexy name would the Jays have given you more? I am guessing not so point is dead. Perhaps you would have been more willing to give up Niese to another team.
Or Dickey.
Did not actually have to be thole. Odds are, the jays would have traded Buck for next to nothing just to get rid of him. So the Mets could easily be rolling with the same OD catching tandem (or more likley, Buck starting and Thole backing up!)
Just without that top catching prospect looming, but they could have very easily put together a better than 2012 C tandem even without the big deal.
I´d still have traded Niese for d´Arnaud & Syndergaard which itself is a tremendous package – more than what OAK got for Gio Gonzalez last year or what SD got for Mat Latos.
However, I´d rather not trade Niese and trade Dickey instead. So if the Mets had the choice, they made the right call.
Because if the Jays called tomorrow and would offer Dickey straight up for Niese, I´d reject.
While Dickey is probably more likely to be better in 2014, Niese remains under Mets control at a modest price through 2018. Dickey – even with the extension – is under control through 2015. And as great as Dickey was in 2012, his 2011 and 2010 numbers were very similar to the ones that Niese posted in 2012. And while Niese has had his share of injury problems, the odds that Dickey´s body breaks down at age 38 are higher than that Niese´s body breaks down at age 26.
Besides the fact that Dickey from 2013 through 2015 gets 30 million $ while Niese gets half of that during the same time frame.
And finally, just based on need, having an established quality LHSP in your rotation longterm sure helps too. The Mets have a bunch of very promising RHSP prospects in their system – but almost no legit LHSP prospects for now. Another reason to keep Niese.
Correct.
Yes. I would have traded Dickey or Niese.
I think RA takes a step back this year. Why? for one, the stadium he plays in. Knuckleballers are home run prone and that place is a home run zone. Second, he took a big step forward last year, an unexpected step. Nothing in his history tells me that last year was expected of him. career year. Having said that, I hope he does great. He will be a winning pitcher, but not ace. I think the Dickey worship is a glaring example of the Met Fan Inferiority Complex. Not his fault. He just is not as good as he was last year. I am glad we kept Niese, especialy since he did 190 innings last year. He is entering his prime.
They loved Niese? Good, because I’m sure there are more teams out there who feel the same way. Wait until Niese’s value develops a lot more, to where Dickey’s value was or possibly better and get an even better package back. Only way I’m ultimately trading Niese is if the Mets get back a young LHP with a chance to be more advanced than Niese.
Well, I still say trade Dickey, but I don’t think it is as black and white as some people see it. I agree with the no wrong answer sentiment.
You trade either one for that package. And agreed, it´s not black & white.
That said, in the Mets position, trading Dickey was the right call.
And the good thing is, in 2013, all Mets fans can easily root for the Blue Jays featuring Dickey & Reyes as the Mets bide time to let contracts run out and develop young talent.
And by 2014 – hopefully – the Mets will be able to contend again themselves…
i would say no, but it really is a pretty unique situation with Dickey.
but bottom line, it would still have created a hole in the rotation, and probably for more years.
so the question is would you rather have Neise for the next 6 years (whatever his current contract covers) or Dickey for 3 (at more $/year for them)?
Strong return for Neise though. Frankly, a bolder option would have been make the Dickey deal, and try to replicate the Neise deal from another team.
Who knows if they could have had the Toronto guys, plus a top-tier OF prospect and a few other pieces to go along with him? Yeah, makes the rotation shaky right now, but overall looking at 2014+, could be much more balanced and stronger.
I would have traded Niese if that were the choice I had to make. However, the question of this thread was Niese OR Dickey. Given that choice I would trade Dickey every time. BUT, if Toronto liked Niese that much, I would have sent Niese to them to get Reyes back. They may have bitten on it if they wanted to unload his salary. Or, I would have given Niese for Bautista to play outfield for us. The fan perception of that would have been very positive for this year. It would hurt our pitching this year but I believe our rotation will turn out alright in the next 2 years.
A team lin the rebuilding phase like the Mets with many holes should not send off one who is still developing but establishing himself like Neise for two highly rated prospects.
I’m putting sentiment aside on this one and am saying there were right to deal R.A. rather than Jonathon for the package Toronto was offering. Maybe had the Mets been treating R.A. fairly in contract negotiations and indeed were not shopping him around but suddenly got an offer from Toronto and then said to R.A., you know we love you but we got a deal that we just could not pass up the trade would have been less difficult to accept. Though Sandy denied this to be true, he did not hide the fact he would be open to such talks if somebody else made the first move so he was literally inviting people to call him instead (not to mention the leaks on what they wanted known about the contract negotations and then the badmouthing of him at that Christmas party that he found out about at the last minute and changed his schedule to attend to in order to be with the kids)
Was sad to see Dickey go, but you’re weighing a 27 year old lefty against a 38 year old Knuckleballer. Niese has been incredibly consistent thus far, and hopefully will continue.
Always, Dickey. Though I wish he could have signed my book.
Holding onto Neise is imperative for the future of the team especially with his contract an experience he will be helpful to the young gunz coming up the next few years. Once Johan is gone Neise is the man and may be our ace if Harvey isnt ready 2014….. Dickey was solid for three years and had a great season last year but his value was peaked and the Mets traded him in for valuable assets while also saving about a 10 million difference in salary and two less years than Neise…. of the two options trading Dickey was best for the future, and present because of the door it opens for Neise today
Maybe I’m in the minority but with Dickey, you have a very special pitcher. He also puts rear ends in the seats.
Neise is not speical right now. He may or may not be special in the future.
But if I’m getting the same players by trading Neise instead of Dickey – I got to trade Neise.
And if Tor0nto wants to do a do-over and offer us Dickey straight up for Neise – I’d make that trade.
You are trading potential (and youth) for a the current Cy Young.
Hi tl,
You are not in the minority. Many of us feel that Sandy just wanted to dump R.A. Yes, many of us feel less of an emotional impact now than we did when the trade was made and looking at the potential d’Arnaud holds for us, however, now that spring training has started and the WBC is about to begin, the actual sight of R.A. in a Toronto uniform is making many of us once again feel the way we did when he was traded.
R.A. actually has to have a bad year in order to feel less hurt about the trade regardless of how well Travis performs. And even if Travis does develop into a very dependable backstop, we will still never forget the manner in which R.A. was treated for all that he gave back to everone in so many ways that extends way beyond the ball field.
“And even if Travis does develop into a very dependable backstop, we will still never forget the manner in which R.A. was treated for all that he gave back to everone in so many ways that extends way beyond the ball field.”
BINGO
So sick of the “way he was treated”, it’s not even remotely true. SA said once that he was disappointed about ONE comment RA said in the media, then followed it up with a GLOWING report about the man and said in the grand scheme of things, and his great patience he can’t really blame him.
So, can we please, stop repeating one thing and blowing it up to something it really wasn’t.
Hi Kay,
These articles, unless making up things and attributing them to Sandy Alderson and the organization, shows a quite different situation than suggested. Also note the different perspectives coming from each author.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/mets/amazin_won_knuckle_under_dickey_nZaBsu40qLaw5u4yNh
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/sports/baseball/r-a-dickey-deserved-better-from-mets.html?_r=0
And I think Rob gave a rather good critique on all this in MMO a few months back.
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/12/thoughts-on-dickey-and-the-ongoing-mets-incompetence.html
No. Probably wld have done niese for myers though. Thats tough wld hav tried to get them to include a pitching prospect. Thats who kc wannted first n i think myers is gna b a beast.
Its a tough call i think niese is gna be awesome. If you look at our high ceiling guys 3 years from now he cld b our number 4 or 5 statter n win btween 15 n 17 games.
If u could swing a 3-way trade with Niese that results in getting Stanton…
would you do it ?
I wouldn’t rule out any scenario that would result in Stanton coming to the Mets. I wouldn’t rule out any player either.
A trade for Stanton is going to cost us more than just Jonathon Niese my friend much more at this point in time.
Doesn’t matter how many teams are involved
Stanton would cost to much in terms of prospects. They should stay the course n keep stockpiling talent. We could be like a mix between sf and washington. The next free agent period is gona be huge in terms of my support. If they sign a guy like ellsbury i think that would show us something. But if u look at how much pitching the mets have u cant help but get excited. I dont think theres another team in baseball that can match us in terms of pitching prospects. Pitsburg has some nice ones but our problem is podition players. I love flores bat n he will be our second baseman mark my words. He has plus plus power n a great eye. U put all this pitching with ellsburry, tejada, flores n d’arnold up the middle n thats a pretty nice start. Our bullpen is gona come from guys within the organization. So every year wont be a re shuffle.
AS A CARD-CARRYING ORIGINAL DICKEY CHEERLEADER FROM DAY 1, THIS IS CERTAINLY THE CRUX OF THE MATTER:
DICKEY CERTAINLY HAD THE SUPERIOR SEASON; HOWEVER, IMO, OF THE 2 ONLY NIESE HAS THE POTENTIAL TO REPLICATE OR SURPASS DICKEY’S 2013 RESULTS IN THE FUTURE!
NIESE WILL TRULY IMPROVE WHILE DICKEY CAN ONLY DETERIORATE
I LOVED RA AS A MET! MUCH MORE THAN SANTANA & NEARLY AS MUCH AS PEDRO, IN ’05.
EVEN I KNOW R.A. REACHED AN UNSURPASSABLE, FOR HIM, PINNACLE OF PERFORMANCE WHILE NIESE, IMO, WILL BE THE PREMERE #3 SP IN THE LEAGUE FOR SOMETINME TO COME!