It’s above average, but extremely well? I know it is a relative term, but you are probably stretching it there.

“I wasn’t intending to cast aspersions or even be argumentative.”

Didn’t say you were. You brought up a point and I furthered the conversation by digging into the facts.

“I just thought it was an odd thing to say. Here’s a guy, Pedro Lopez, who has been shadowing the Dominican team from day one, and out of nowhere he tweets that about Team USA as his takeaway.”

OK, I agree with you.

“We should all understand the usefulness of each stat not be so extreme in it’s application.”

But who has actually advocated the thing you are arguing against? who has come out and said “this is the be all and end all of measuring production”? The only time I’ve seen that is people who declare RBI to be that. Even the guys who created the various types of WAR add the caveats.

The U.S had plenty of power on its team. They lost because many ot their players — both pitchers and hitters — didn’t come up clutch. That includes Victorino, Hosmer, Stanton, Kimbrel, and Pestano.

It wasn’t just the OPS (power). Puerto Rico so far in the WBC has put up only a .puny 598 team OPS so far, lower than the U.S. team’s, and they are in the semis. PR was just more clutch in both hitting and fielding than the U.S.

The U.S. fielded a good team, but it was certainly not their best. I think they need to choose participants more carefully in the future. For example, both Ike and Howard were willing to replace Teixeira, but they chose Hosmer. And what was Victorino doing on the team? Was that the best backup outfielder they could find?

I was absolutely stunned during the Hall of Fame vote when Ken Davidoff used WAR to exclude Mike Piazza from his HOF Ballot and used OBP to include Kenny Lofton. Davidoff caught a lot of flack for it, deservedly so, and he later admitted that he erred and that it wouldn’t happen again in 2014. I believe him.

The mistake here wasn’t using WAR. It was using WAR for a catcher. I think it’s generally well understood among even proponents of WAR that the stat is weak when judging catchers. So the issue in some respects was Davidoff misusing a stat he apparently doesn’t understand well.

In addition, I’m not too sure that WAR was really the reason Davidoff left off Piazza. I suspect it could be some ulterior motive — maybe a personal dislike of the man, you know like the way Chass just dislikes Piazza — but Davidoff pulled WAR out of the air just so he would have a decent sounding excuse.

Regardless, WAR was simply used in the wrong context here, so you shouldn’t use that example to bash the stat in general. When used correctly in the proper context WAR is as good or better than any other stat.

It may find that patience works only in cases where Balls are thrown earlier and more often than strikes and in cases where Strikes come early Patience isn’t even present at all because the Batter had to take a cut or didn’t and Patience turned into a negative and put him behind in the count.

Patience really can only be judged based on what they did for both balls and strikes (split) during the first 3 – 5 pitches of a PA….
After that Patience probably doesn’t have any affect on the result and somethign else is the key to the success of the PA and even PPPA….

Such as batter ability to not TAKE pitches anymore but fight off close pitches that could be caled either way and are NOT hittable in the name of extending the PA long enough to get a pitch that IS!

In that situation aggressive DEFENSE is called for not patience.

Yeah the guy who was CORRECT about your BAD THEORY is the ignorant one in regards to how Baseball works….

You can’t make this crap up!
But you guys sure try!

If thats all you got left to make your case then I suggest there is no further point in arguing with a guy who won’t even agree with himself!
And tries to portray that person who proved his own self wrong as knowing something about what it is he is talking about!

RBI tells you the amount of times SOMETHING the player did resulted in a run scoring….
Can OBP or SLG even OPS tell you how much of his accomplishements scored a run?

NO! therefore it tells you how good the indivisual player is at ACHIEVING THE GOAL of raising RS!

And he doesn’t need a single guy on base to get that achievement!

Do I need to quote your past statement or are you withdrawing it so you can take a second shot at OBP because it bothers you that I got you to admit it wasn’t as relevant or correlate better than something else?

I got what I wanted out of this and feel no need to discuss it further….
I got one of the folks who say OBP is the best Correlator to RS to admit it that statement insnt true!
OBP does not create by itself an RS anymore individually than an RBI does….
And OB by itself does not mean a run was scored and an RBI does not require an OB it IS the OB that drives in the run….BOTH OBP and RBI gets awarded in those cases….

So you can say RBI is a team stat but in order for OBP itself to produce a run it ALSO requires another team member to give you what it is an RBI can get you without help from any other player on the team!

And when that happens what gets awarded more?
OBP? OPS? or SLG?
(as well as the RBI we already know goes up)

Not all OBP is equal….Some is more valuable than others therefore it can’t distinguish or indicate HOW MUCH GOOD you actually got….
SLG is better because it weights the good of the OB and OPS only as a result of including the SLG inside itself…..

RBI has no wishy washy weight to it’s metric…
You might want to say an RBI that causes an out is less good than an RBI that comes with an OB if you want….But in NIETHER Example does the weight you assign NOT CAUSE RS to increase!

Which is why it correlates so well because when you get it you KNOW you got it….
Not true with OBP, SLG and OPS

“Which is why I also favor BA over OBP because”

well its actually “because” you are ignorant of hose baseball works.

OBP is even WORSE of an indicator of what a Player does because it icludes things the Pitcher FAILED to accomplish such as hitting a batter with a pitch, Walking a guy intentionally or just the pitcher not being able to control his pitches….

Which is why I also favor BA over OBP because at least the BA is all Batter Derived and does not count mistakes of the Pitcher…

if you want to think you changed my mind, you can, but i would have told you 10 years ago to care only about OPS+ plus.

again. ignore RBI. every time. always. it means nothing. its never is useful in any situation.

Did Sierra and Fancourer have more RBI than Bonds and Pujols?

Hardly!

Should I now go find two scrub guys with High OBP and LOW everything else to make a counterpoint in s similar vain as you have attemtped here?

RBI’s correlate directly to runs scored because the amount of unearned runs are insignificant ~>5%. The problem with RBI’s to measure a player is that they have limited ability to tell you anything about an individual player. They’re highly dependent on players other than the one at the plate and then there’s the problem of different stadiums.

SO you go on ignoring stats you don’t like….The guy who doesn’t do that will create a better team than you in EVERY INSTANCE!

Because he made a MORE EDUCATED decision than the guy who ignored something based on a personal belief.

OBP does NOT Correlate to RS better than another metric…..

You choose OPS+ I think (and have showed that RBI correlates better in the end but it does not mean I build my team around it in the real world)

But given a choice of players and just being handed the stats of OBP and RBI I take the RBI guy almost everytime unless the RBI is close enough between to two for the OBP to give an edge!

Cause then I will depend on the next guy I selected based on those limited critera to get him based on HIS RBI ability to score him.

As for real life team and player selection I wouldn’t limit myself to just two stats but many here run to the OBP regardless of the other metrics….
Suce as was the case in liking Torres last year who had a decent OBP but hit Medoza!