The 2013 Season Is Sandy Alderson’s Final Mulligan

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• Rony March 10, 2013 at 1:00 pm

  Completely agree with both you and Joel Sherman on this topic. One question about 2014 obligations.,..I have it at 25 million….20 for wright and 5 for niese ….my understanding was tht 5.5 owed to Santana is counted against 2013 payroll and bay deferred money is not counted against the books ….I am hoping the extra 26 million the mets (and all teams ) get can come on handy too
  • taskmaster4450 March 10, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    I think they count the arbitration monies based upon 1st, 2nd, or 3rd year eligible because guys like Ike, Murphy, and Parnell are under control even though the dollar amount is unknown. Same with guys like Harvey who is going to make roughly $500K in 2014.
  • van March 10, 2013 at 1:08 pm

    on guaranteed deals for active players, you just might be right. Not counting the assorted deferrals of course, which still have to get paid.

    and there seem to be quite a few payroll estimates for the Mets (different accounting methodologies?) based on real cash outflow (cutting checks) and bookkeeping entries (such as for luxury tax purposes). But actual cash outlay for the deferrals must be at least 15mill in 2014? Johan, Beltran, bay, etc.
• Bayonne Mets Fan March 10, 2013 at 1:04 pm

  And it could be his own philosophy of doing things that can be his undoing as well. He neglected this 2013 roster intentionally in my opinion. If not intentionally than his calculations,his numbers, their “formulas” or whatever the hell you want to call it was way, way, off.

  This roster SHOULD have been better equipped but it’s not and that is 100% on Alderson and his way of doing business so if the season takes a dramatic spiral downward it is Alderson’s own fault.
  • Connor O'Brien March 10, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    With this roster, you probably would’ve had to a) spend another $50mm+ this season (which we know he can’t do) or b) trade away the farm (is that really the smart idea?) to make the team playoff-caliber.
    • Bayonne Mets Fan March 10, 2013 at 2:11 pm

      nah, not really.
    • Metsie March 10, 2013 at 3:28 pm

      Did he have to spend 50Mil? Or could have just spent 20 Mil to get us in the division race (not playoffs, think 1984) and then spent the rest next year because that division race drew more fans to the stadium to help pay for it?
      • Bayonne Mets Fan March 10, 2013 at 3:39 pm

        Right, didn’t he say he had around 25 million to spend but said he may not even spend it? And that’s not even including trying to make one god damned creative trade. And I’m not talking about dumping a star for prospects. The one actual trade full scale trade of ballplayers was for Torres & Ramirez…..and their both back with their respective team the very next year!
        • Metsie March 10, 2013 at 4:47 pm

          Yep but I’m not sure if he meant it or he was just pulling Wilpon out from under the bus there….

          Point is that you can’t just wait and then go BUY yourself out of every hole you created with your attempt at rebuilding….

          Especially not when that hole is an entire OF!
          He only needed one OFer when he started and now needs THREE if none of the boy wonders we have been playing takes the job by the horns and wins it.

          And this year was chock full of OFers to buy at around the 10-15 Mil mark.
          Get one this year thats one less guy you have to sift through next year!
          Many of the guys who will be available next year are guys who were available THIS year only they will be more expensive next year than they would be this year and if you didn’t like them this year what could they possibly do to make you want them next year?
          Especially considering what we have out there today?

          I would have signed Victorino to that 3 year deal which would expire right around the time Nimmo is supposed to be ready….If Nimmo comes early I trade Victorino for something else.
          • Valdespin1 March 10, 2013 at 7:37 pm

            $40 million on an average player on the downside of his career. Off a bad season.

            Convince me why victorino is a good sign
            • Metsie March 10, 2013 at 8:16 pm

              Cause he hits and fields better than EVERY OTHER OFer on our Roster and that goes DOUBLE for Valdespin!

              And if he has a good year this year that 40 Million is a bargain!
              • oleosmirf March 10, 2013 at 11:37 pm

                that is certainly true, but that doesn’t make him worth signing.

                I would have preferred them sign Bourn as well, but I do like what I see in Cowgill and Valdespin thus far (even Byrd too looks good)

                Plus Den Dekker can absolutely pick in it CF and if he can be only average offensively we have that position covered…
              • Valdespin1 March 11, 2013 at 12:14 am

                Is victorino worth – 40 mill – no.

                Is he better than byrd or cowgill – yes.

                Can he earn his total contract in year 1 – no.
          • Connor O'Brien March 10, 2013 at 8:52 pm

            I mean Victorino is better than our OFers but I thought that was a terrible contract.
            • Metsie March 11, 2013 at 12:32 am

              Doesn’t matter what you thought his contract was worth thats what your going to pay next year for a guy who probably isn’t even as good as Victorino!

              THATS the problem with waiting till next year….

              You guys mention names like CoCo Crisp but he is going to cost that much if not more….And if he doesn’t it’s because he sucks even worse than he does now which NOW he isn’t even as good as Victorino…

              You need to find TWO OFers next year….
              You get one you don’t think your going to overpay for the second one after all the other teams who wanted the first guy you got up thier bids to get SOMETHING?

              So next year you overpay for OFer #1 and then REALLY overpay for OFer #2!
    • Joey D. March 10, 2013 at 9:49 pm

      Hi Connor,

      And that is the point. Considering the Mets financial mess, decisions have not been made based on talent – and we still have to worry about that affecting the team in the future.

      Metsie put it correctly when saying decisions had to be made for the team could not stand still. After the 2010 season, Sandy explained it was a matter not of resources but of not having additional resources to help the team in 2011.

      OK, that’s the explanation for the acquisition of those inexpensive players in 2011- no additional resources. But the team that he could not have helped in 2011 he also did not attempt to keep together in 2012 when with some legit additions (he even said in that conference call not to base future decisions on the spending limitations he had already taken) the team could have been in a position to make a legitimate run. That team proved it was capable of contending in 2011 despite little contribution from those Sandy added. Their playing at a .575 clip more than half a season (after that terrible 5-13 start) came from Beltran returning from injury and emerging as the team’s top hitter, Reyes coming back from injury and having a career year and KRod having another fine season with 23 saves. And that was also accomplished despite the little contribution from those inexpensive players acquired by Sandy AND losing the bat of Davis, a poor first half by Pagan and David out for two months.

      So by mid-season with club showing what it was capable of doing (considering the above mentioned points going against them) there was no reason not to look ahead to 2012 when resources were supposed to be looser.

      There were many options other than to dismantle what we had that would not have crippled the farm system, either. We would be doing what good clubs attempt to do – remain competitors and build for the future at the same time.

      Why Sandy didn’t take this approach we know was because there was no money. All the decisions were made with cost savings in mind.

      And now that the nucleus of the young club is settling in – the young vets (Davis, Murphy, Neise, etc) and the new kids (d’Aarnaud, Harvey, etc.) the question must be asked – why is it that we are in the position to have to think of Colin Cogwell as being our starting center fielder? Why weren’t attempts made this winter to shore up our problems? Why was losing our protected first round draft slot considered more important? Is it because decisions appear to be still being made based not on talent but of costs.

      That is why one should have second thoughts about how serious the front office is about re-building the club as it is still saving money.
• Mary March 10, 2013 at 1:15 pm

  I wish I could write like you. I agree with what you say and I’ve always said I’d be giving Alderson or any new GM three years before I start judging the results. As usual, another good article Joe.
• CThomp519 March 10, 2013 at 1:15 pm

  I see this as the final year he gets to have a crappy team…

  Meaning, this year CAN BE crappy, but next season they must finish with not just a .500 record, but a legit shot at the playoffs.

  I always understood, despite the “no punting” declarations, that this team was financially handcuffed and wouldn’t be spending until after all the big contracts were gone. I saw the writing on the wall. I also understood the trades to bring in young talent while also not wanting to trade our own prospects to speed up the process.

  I don’t believe a losing record this year counts against Sandy at all this year. I believe the entire Mets FO and ownership both are willing to sit and watch another losing team this year. That said, I believe 2014 is different and even ownership expects a winner by then. Otherwise, it was awfully foolish of Fred to jump in front of the ny media and proclaim the vaults are flush with cash and ready for pillaging.
  • Bayonne Mets Fan March 10, 2013 at 1:57 pm

    When I see a post like this it makes me think of that scene from This Is Spinal Tap in which Paul Schaeffer is playing the character Art Fufkin who messes up a scheduled publicity appearance for the band. He simply shows up very apologetic, turns around, puts his hands on the desk, stick is rear end out and says “go ahead, kick my ass”. “C’mon, kick my ass I’m not asking I’m telling you…Kick My Ass!”

    That about sums up the fan who just lays down without questioning Alderson’s moves.
    • Watchdog March 10, 2013 at 7:51 pm

      I believe this post could be construed as “baiting”.
      • Bayonne Mets Fan March 10, 2013 at 8:02 pm

        I believe you are trying to get me banned because of my beliefs. Now what’s the regular name you use around here?
        • Watchdog March 10, 2013 at 8:24 pm

          Actually, first time posting after about a year of reading without commenting. I just wanted to point out that you were doing the very thing you’ve been complaining about others doing since I’ve been reading, and using as an excuse for your behavior. I hope you see how insulting another poster who has done nothing to provoke you might end up causing a problem.
          • Bayonne Mets Fan March 10, 2013 at 8:28 pm

            actually i was not. Just talk about baseball okay and don’t concern yourself with my well being. That’s for others to decide. So…..ENJOY THE SITE!
            • Watchdog March 10, 2013 at 8:39 pm

              Funny, I see talk about spinal tap and a shot at the commenter but no baseball talk in your post. Should take your own advise.
          • Joe D March 10, 2013 at 8:37 pm

            Watchdog, thanks for taking the time to comment and your point was not lost on me.
            • Watchdog March 10, 2013 at 8:45 pm

              Thanks Joe, you have a great site here, and I enjoy all the different view points. I don’t want to see anybody banned, I think it’s a shame that 8 people have already had to be banned, and you had to shut down the chat box.
        • Joe D March 10, 2013 at 8:36 pm

          That’s the only name he’s ever had. There you go again assuming things. The point is you don’t want to be instigated, your words not mine. Follow what you preach. Stick to baseball.
          • Bayonne Mets Fan March 10, 2013 at 8:41 pm

            I thought my This Is Spinal tap analogy was quite funny and harmless. And I would say it again because there was nothing wrong with it other than my take on the fans willingness not to question Aldesron.

            And i DO talk baseball. So i don’t know what the heck you mean by that. And I had a right to defend myself against a false assumption. And it was not a stretch by a LONG SHOT that Watchdog was an fake monikor by somebody else.

            I did nothing wrong here. YOU stick to baseball because I was.
            • Watchdog March 10, 2013 at 8:58 pm

              I think the spinal tap analogy was harmless also, but it was the unnecessary poke at the poster that followed (which I don’t even mind, I think everybody should have a better sense of humor)…is the type of thing you call “baiting” and blame for your overboard attacks on people. I just saying that if you don’t want people making snarky replies to your posts (and again, I like snarky) you should show that same respect to others.
              • Bayonne Mets Fan March 10, 2013 at 9:04 pm

                Well let me tell you something and hopefully you mind your own damned business next time…and I could have said this awhile ago too if I wanted to but since you have nothing better to do on a Sunday night but care about that…..That poster had mentioned me several times before and I never responded. And believe me he wasn’t complimenting me. But it didn’t bother me because I knew there would be a time there would be head to head debate but each time I DO respond to his posts…and I have before…and strictly baseball related…he hasn’t responded. But that’s okay…i don’t mind at all.

                So mind your own DAMNED business next time okay? OH and I will be watching intently for your baseball posts in the next few days. Not to respond but to see if you actually do stick around to talk baseball. Have a lovely evening.
                • Watchdog March 10, 2013 at 9:20 pm

                  Probably won’t be posting in the future…after all I’ve been reading for over a year and this is my first time posting…I enjoy reading other people’s thoughts more than spouting off my own opinions(I’ve never learned anything when I’ve been talking)…I think you add a good perspective to this site and would just like to see you treat people the same way you expect to be treated.
                  • Metsie March 11, 2013 at 12:28 am

                    All I’m going to say regarding this is if you read here for a year and this is theTHING that iinspired you to post it was a poor choice of subject for jumping into the site….
                • Joey D. March 10, 2013 at 10:04 pm

                  Hi Bayonne,

                  You know you and I see things the same way and I think that reference to spinal tap was a great analogy. But, as a friend – and having been the victim of crass comments directed personally at me, it would have been better to follow-up that point by saying that is why WE don’t lay down and very much question Alderson’s moves.

                  Again, saying that only as a cyber friend because your points are reasonably thought out (and resemble mine )and I don’t want to see you added to that list of “Eight Men Out”.

                  I also feel the same way about Metro who I often disagree with – his points are within reason as well even though the don’t resemble mine and I would hate to see those like him banned from MMO as well.

                  That’s why I kept on pleading with everyone on both sides not to make something like the Mets so personal. Yes, that takes a lot of restraint on the part of all of us because the argument often gets heated, but it’s something that we all must adhere to when it comes to conversation between ladies and gentlemen.

                  Again, loved that spinal type anology.
            • Martin March 11, 2013 at 5:57 pm

              You make this site suck with your “I played the game” nonsense
• Trs86 March 10, 2013 at 1:17 pm

  I agree,2014 was always the tell tell year regardless of Alderson.
  • van March 10, 2013 at 1:28 pm

    right. after 3 off seasons, they pretty much should have a team in place (for the 4th season, in this case 2014) that really represents “their team”. But that is also Sandy’s last year, so basically he will have his last build session, then will watch the team play as his swan song before handing over the reigns.
• van March 10, 2013 at 1:19 pm

  I don’t think Sandy is at all worried about his legacy, future, appeasing fans or anything like that. I said all along that he was brought in as an organizational “fixer” to stabilize and straighten out the organizational structure. But that it was not going to be any longer than his contract, which is only through 2014 guaranteed.

  so that would most likely position next off season as his “transition” year where the designated replacement (JP?) took over the day to day duties, with Sandy as more of a consulting role or some such.
  • van March 10, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    forgot to add, he did come into a pretty unique situation for a new GM. bad teams/weak farms are not unusual, but compounded with a financial crisis is.
    • Joey D. March 11, 2013 at 12:55 am

      Hi Van,

      Of course, I think you are correct about the reasons Sandy came on board.

      But curious as to your thoughts on how much this concern has preference over the concerns of competitive integrity. As you probably have gathered, I don’t think it’s a matter of Sandy not wanting to win as it is his looking at the Mets situation in terms of business and how to protect the interests of it’s owners. I do not see it is possible for one with his background to be able to properly lay any groundwork into baseball matters on a professional level. I see Sandy qualified to deal with corporate matters, i.e., re-structuring, downsizing, dealing with financial institutions, etc.

      It’s his analytical ability to tackle deep issues of finance and law that makes him so qualified for the business end of the game that is also his own downfall. So successful in the business end of the game, he does not see how he is hurting the team by applying that same methodology to baseball and not understanding it is not the same thing. We’ve seen it in the hitting approach being telegraphed to opposing teams and even more importantly, his waiting for things to happen instead of trying to make them happen instead.
• P. Singh March 10, 2013 at 1:19 pm

  Straight up dude. For any Top Chef fans out there, this season is Last Chance Kitchen for Sandy. Will he advance and move on, or will he go down in flames?
• Connor O'Brien March 10, 2013 at 1:30 pm

  Completely agree Joe. Great article.
  With the money freed up after this season, they will have the money to plug up the holes with some big pieces.
  There are some big names where the Mets have/will have holes.
  OF:
  Carlos Gomez
  Hunter Pence
  Delmon Young
  Cory Hart
  Chris Young
  Curtis Granderson
  Jacoby Ellsbury
  Mike Morse
  David Murphy
  SP:
  Gavin Floyd
  Matt Garza
  Dan Haren
  Josh Johnson
  John Lannan
  Jon Lester (club option)
  Tim Lincecum
  Roy Halladay (vesting option)
  James Shields (club option)
  Suk-min Yoon
  Closers:
  Grant Balfour
  Ryan Madson
  Carlos Marmol
  Joel Hanrahan
  Joe Nathan
  • van March 10, 2013 at 1:37 pm

    If they are going to make a splash anywhere spending money on outsiders, I would bet it will be on an OF. or 2. Which ones, entirely depends on which if any of the guys this year step up enough to show they deserve to be part of the OF mix next year. Particularly in CF.
    • RandomGuy March 10, 2013 at 1:47 pm

      We should NOT bring in some in 2014 for center, we have Den Dekker, who will probably crush AAA this year and get a call up at some point.
      • van March 10, 2013 at 2:44 pm

        that is exactly what I meant. you should find out this year if there are any current roster options that can hold down a spot. Including MDD.

        say he goes to Vegas, crushes the ball for a couple of months, comes up in June, starts slow but by August/September seems settled in, and cementing his future as the everyday CF. Well, hell yeah, CF won’t be on the off season shopping list.

        same could go for LF with Duda.

        either spot could get locked down, or be completely open come next winter, but we won’t have any idea until the season plays out.
• Phil Groh March 10, 2013 at 1:49 pm

  I wish I cold be as optimistic as you guys, but I cannot. This team is going down in flames until current ownership sells. But then, I predicted that the 2011 NY Giants would stink up the place!
• B-Met Fan March 10, 2013 at 2:28 pm

  Alderson inherited a mess, nonproductive players signed to big money, long-term contracts with almost no capital available to make the moves needed to shore up immediate on the field needs. Money is not an end all, but it does count. Nothing times nothing equals nothing and nothing is where Alderson started. I’m hoping 2014 will be a turnaround year. I’m also hoping Sandy doesn’t leap to follow the impulsive, paniced spending behaviors of previous regimes in filling the many holes on the Mets roster. Build around what we have, a core nucleus of young promising pitching talent, a young highly regared catching prospect, and solid pieces at the corners of the infield. Smart decision making in reconstructing and outfield and bullpen the the keys to how soon we become relevant again.
• DrDooby March 10, 2013 at 2:29 pm

  Yes, in 2014 even Alderson supporters will expect a winning season, preferably even a playoff appearance or at least contending into the final week of the season with realistic hope for further improvement.

  And again, with a projected payroll in 2014 of – for now – barely 52.5 million $ including all arb eligibles and a major revenue increase at the same time with the new TV deal, Alderson will have plenty of $$ to spend – even without the Wilpons needing to shift over some of their SNY gains.
• Hank March 10, 2013 at 2:44 pm

  This whole business of waiting three years before anything matters is ridiculous for me. I wish we all had jobs that allowed us three years to rebuild the “infrastructure” and set up organizational norms…before anything getting counted against us. That would be pretty awesome.

  The pendulum has swung. For years we have been thought of as not patient enough. Now I feel like we are too patient. Could the Mets have been turned around quicker, who knows. All I’m saying is it’s ridiculous to me that the new accepted norm is three years of decreasing wins before anything else matters.
  • van March 10, 2013 at 2:51 pm

    the organizational structure/pipeline and the ML roster/wins are interrelated but not exactly the same. You can certainly have succeeded at the first even if the record of the Mets has not already improved.

    people will always disagree about how much effort and resources should be put toward building a sustained competitive organization (even if it takes a couple of years to click in) vs. a “quick fix” of the ML team.
• Metsie March 10, 2013 at 3:50 pm

  “Alderson took a 79-win team that got Omar Minaya fired and turned it into a 77-win team, then a 74-win team”

  How many times have I said the above just this year alone?

  The one thing the “wait and see it will happen in 2014″ folks seem to forget is that it is not very likely that a Lame Duck GM (which is what Sandy will be in 2014 unless he gets an extention) is going to get permission to spend this 30-50 Million and commit the organization to payiing it for the next three or four years and possibly put the next GM in the situation of having to cut salary to make the team in his image!

  SO really it doesn’t matter how good you think the 2014 team MIGHT be…If it isn’t going to be a winner based on who the team has now, Sandy may not be allowed to make the moves to change the complextion of 2014 at the end of the year.

  They HAVE to have a good showing this year (2013), good enough to extend Sandy and prove to everyone that the team really IS one or two players away before he will be extended and allowed to spend the money needed to get them.

  Which makes the 2013 season performance MUCH MORE important than the projections on 2014.

  If it was a case where we had an OF in AAA (or about to be) who was going to be ready in 2014 to make us champions it would be one thing…But thats not the case here.

  So 2014 and all the hope put on it revolves around Sandy’s ability to finally spend (something he doesn’t really like in the first place) and there is no guarantee that a lame duck GM will get to spend as much as is needed to make 2014 the year you all think it could be.

  The last time we let a GM make a purchase in his final year (and he wasn’t lame duck, just under fire) we made a desperate signing of Jason Bay. The next GM has been excused because he was saddled with that contract.

  It is not likely that kind of thing will be allowed to happen again.

  SO if this team in 4th in the Div at the end of 2013 with nary a sign of any performance that could get them into the playoff picture, then 2014 is not going to be what many hope it will and we will continue the path of the last three offseasons instead.

  Play out the string, Have Sandy finish out his contract or get replaced Mid 2014 and the new GM will start from there.

  Yes Patience is a Virtue and good things come to those who wait provided the guy actually doing it doesn’t put off till tomorrow what could be done today!

  And thats going to be the story of 2013 and 2014…
  By not even trying to solve HALF the issues this team faces in 2013/14 he may have sealed his own fate because there is no way they will sign off on singing some guy to a big bucks multiyear contract suggested by a guy who may not live long enough in his job to take the heat for it!
  • Valdespin1 March 10, 2013 at 7:44 pm

    So you are saying alderson inherited a team that was not winning, with a core that was aging and with underperforming parts making way too much money.

    You say throw good money at bad money and hope to win a few more than you lose which is an improvement.

    Sandy decided to blow it mostly up and build a younger higher upside core with flexibility to add parts to create a perennial winner.

    I agree with Sandy here.
    • Metsie March 10, 2013 at 8:18 pm

      NoI’m not saying any of that but then again you were never too good at reading….

      He took a team that won X amount and made a team that loses EVEN MORE!

      Took a team that got a GM fired and made it an even BIGGER LOSER!

      Thats what Sandy did…And YOU agree with him…..

      Which is why you have been pretty much on the wrong side of every argument since you got here!
      • TJ March 10, 2013 at 9:14 pm

        Metsie,
        Your post above is 100% spot on. The blind faith in 2014 and beyond is just that. Performance in 2013 is absolutely essential. If this squad puts put 70 wins, good luck in 2014. That list of FAs above is loaded with Jason Bays…guys past their prime with big price tags. I actually thought this past offseason would be make or break for Alderson, and I am not impressed. Once agaqin I see a team with just too many holes.
      • Joe D March 11, 2013 at 12:29 am

        Metsie,

        Valdespin is simply stating his opinion. As to whether he or you are wrong or right, it has yet to be determined. But he has a right to his opinion and believing in what Sandy is doing.

        We need to debate with a lot less emotion and stop taking our differences so personal.
        • Mr North Jersey March 11, 2013 at 12:34 am

          “We need to debate with a lot less emotion and stop taking our differences so personal.”

          This
        • Metsie March 11, 2013 at 12:37 am

          No Joe he was trying to state MY opinion…..

          When he starts a post like this

          “So you are saying….”

          Thats not him posting is opinon it is an attempt to CHANGE and MISDIRECT, OBSCURE, BELITTLE My stated opinion….

          By rewording it anyway he likes….

          All I did was point out he read it wrong…Something he has done many times in reply to me.
    • Joe D March 11, 2013 at 12:31 am

      Valdespin1 I know you’re kind of new here and your opinions are valued and welcome here. LGM
      • Metsie March 11, 2013 at 12:41 am

        Yes I guess his opinion is putting words in my mouth…

        “You say throw good money at bad money ”

        Never said it at all But he is allowed to put words in MY mouth and you call it HIS opinion?

        Cause you VALUE his restatement of MY opinions…true or not!
        Please Joe…
• tlagee March 10, 2013 at 4:48 pm

  Hey Joe – spot on!

  Sandy though has a bigger lifeline than any GM in the history of baseball. He heroically saved Fred 60 million dollars and allowed him to keep the team.

  His goal was to save the franchise for the Wilpons – not to put a competitive team on the field and he has done a great job.

  It must be nice to be brought in to an organization with the blessings of the commishoner, have no ties to it, and gut it – with absolutely no accountability.

  Sandy may leave after this season, but it will be his choice. He has a lifetime pass with the Wilpons.
• srt March 10, 2013 at 9:13 pm

  Even though the FO never labeled this a rebuild, IMO that’s pretty much what they’re attempting to do – from the minors on up.

  When Cashen came in, he said ‘give me 5 years’. Since this FO isn’t using the word rebuild, you won’t hear those types of statements from this. They might think that leaves it wide open but Met fans are only going to have so much patience.

  Reportedly, there is a chunk of money coming off the books at the end of 2013 that should allow them to spend. First, I’ll believe they’re going to spend when they actually do so. I’m not holding my breath on that one.
  Second, spending money isn’t the answer unless it’s spent wisely. See the 2012 Miami Marlins.

  Next season we’ll need an OF and a SP, minimum. I’ll be very curious how this FO is going to be filling these holes. I don’t think the fan base is going to go along with patching again going into 2014.
• Matt Mosher March 11, 2013 at 1:01 am

  So exactly what happens in October, when this team won 75 games? Is that the end of the line for Sandy? This is laughable. What exactly are people expecting this year, a World Series appearance?
  • metsaddict77 March 11, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    maybe we expect to see some improvement after three years.
• Joey D. March 11, 2013 at 1:27 pm

  Well,

  If anyone is listening to Mike Francesa one would believe Sandy is the last of the bigtime spenders compared to the Yankees right now. When I caught him in the middle of his opening monologue and saying why should we spend any money to fill our holes when this one and that one is suddenly Joe DiMaggio I felt for sure he was speaking about the Mets and shocked he was talking about the Steinbrenners.

  While focusing on the Yankees, in his analysis of what the summer holds for us – it was that with Harvey pitching the second game of the season the Mets will have 3,000 in the stands instead of 2,000.

  He did say this is a much weaker team that last year because of the loss of Dickey and did not talk about things in the long-term.
• Old School Mets Fan March 11, 2013 at 1:52 pm

  The narrative I hear frequently is that Alderson took over a bloated team. But here’s what came off the books after his first season.

  Beltran $19 million
  Perez $12 million
  Reyes $11 million
  K-Rod $12 million (admittedly had one year left, but had little trouble trading)
  Castillo $6 milion
  Feliciano$ 3 million

  $64 million came off the books after year one. The only real money put back into the team was $9 million for Francisco/Rauch. This caused the Mets to drop from 7th in MLB in payroll in 2011 to 13th in 2012. No one expects the Mets to outspend the Yankees, Red Sox or Phillies. But they should outspend the Twins and Brewers, even in a down year. The difference between what the Mets spent at 13 in 2012 ($93 million) and what the Cardinals spent at No. 9 ($110 million) is $17 million a year. The Mets could have held on to Reyes at that level. Heck, Alderson consistently told the press that $120 million would be a fair number, even when Fred Wilpon was telling Sports Illustrated that it would be below $100 million.

  So I have a little bit of a problem accepting that this was some sort of master plan to pare a bloated roster down and not simply a reaction to an owners’ crumbling finances.
  • Metsie March 11, 2013 at 2:13 pm

    What is at issue here is the stated reason for paring down what was percieved as a Bloated Salary….

    It was meant to return the team to profitability…
    Yet Two years and 64 Million dollars in cuts later they STILL have yet to get the books to be written in black pen!

    If anyone believes the cuts in payroll were meant to return to profitability and that was the goal then Sandy has FAILED!

    He may have cut salary but while doing it he also cut revenues that offset any savings he thought he was going to get from those cuts!

    And now that he has run out of things to cut without any profit to invest he can’t get back that attendance he lost that would let him spend the money he saved….Because he really didn’t save a penny just didn’t spend money he didn’t have!
  • Joey D. March 11, 2013 at 3:09 pm

    Hi Old School,

    Exactly what I’ve gone into long narratives about Sandy’s honesty with the public. Will always use his own words as expressed in December, 2010 to show how – when it comes to business – he has lost credibility:

    “I wasn’t hired to apply a Moneyball approach to the New York Mets. I would not have accepted the position were I required to run the Mets on a shoestring budget. On the other hand, I did come in with my eyes wide open. I did recognize that there would be some payroll restrictions this year, keeping in mind that when everything’s said and done our payroll will probably be somewhere between 130 and 140 million dollars. We’ll probably be in the top four or five in all of baseball. So, the problem is not that we don’t have resources, the problem is that we have limited additional resources to spend this year. So, what you see today or what you’ve seen over the last two weeks shouldn’t necessarily be representative of what you see over the next two or three years. But we do have to get through a somewhat difficult period from a standpoint of our payroll because we already have most of it committed.”

    There has been debate that Sandy was being honest with us at the time and could not have projected how further bleak the the financial downturn was going to be. I put together a laundry list a few weeks ago and will present it again now. First prior to that conference call in December, 2010:

    - The financial situation as it was then, which included not just the present situation but the upcoming near billion dollars in loans that ,due to the loss of Madoff money, the Mets were suddenly unprepared to pay back.

    - The commissioner fully aware of the above and admitting he had taken steps to help the Wilpons not done with other owners facing the same problems in the past (Los Angeles, Texas and Montreal).

    - The financial situation had gotten to the point that Mets did not have the money to meet operating expenses in October and financial institutions were no longer giving them further loans because they were (and still are, in fact) deemed too risky. Because of that, the Commissioner had to step in where he had not done so with others before (the above point).

    - That action by the commissioner was taken the same month (October) that Sandy was interviewing for the job.

    - Sandy was not interested in the job and loved what he was doing on behalf of MLB with the Dominican Republic.

    - It was the commissioner who urged Sandy to seek the job of Mets GM.

    Now, other things that we also know:

    - So much of the Mets financial problems were being reported in the financial media already.

    - The Mets were heavily invested and had made at least a billion dollars in profit through Madoff. Irving Picard had already been appointed trustee for the victims and taking major steps to recoup as much as he can.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovery_of_funds_from_the_Madoff_investment_scandal#Irving_Picard.2C_Trustee

    - In July of 2010 the Mets were already sued (I believe) independently for recovery of lost pension funds.

    So at first it was Sandy being unaware of how extreme the Mets financial problems were before he took over the job, then it became that perhaps Alderson could not forsee that the financial situation would become tremendously worse a year later.

    Now, this is where that theory shows it’s holes:.

    1) As fans we were already aware of the severity of the situation from what was reported in layman’s terms. Sandy Alderson is no fan – he is a lawyer and corporate CEO and extremely qualified – more so than most others – to understand and appreciate what was even just publicly reported way more than we would. Being that astute legal mind and that corporate executive, he could easily decipher that and deduce what was happening by both the available figures, his knowledge of the corporate world and the steps he saw the Mets taking during 2009 and 2010.

    2) Being urged so hard by the Commissioner to take over a job after telling Selig he had no desire to leave his current position that he loved so much – along with having no interest in the Mets GM opening and his own knowledge of the situation – it is hard to conclude that Sandy did not demand to know what was going on that would cause Bud Selig to push him so strongly toward considering that position.

    3) Again, being the lawyer and CEO and after knowing officially the extent of the severity of the Mets financial situation as he took over the job (including that $25 million bailout) he was not blind to the situation regarding Madoff and not unable to anticipate on top of the financial mess they were in what the Mets could be facing due to the organization’s heavy involvement with Madoff and the overall $50 billion being sought by Picard.

    4) And again, even without Piccard hanging over the shoulders of the Mets, Sandy was aware of their inability to meet their monthly financial obligations, the loans that were forthcoming and that their credit was non-existent with financial institutions no longer conducting further business with them in terms of loans or re-financing in fear of the team defaulting on their future payments.

    5) When spring training opened in late February of 2011, Sandy was still telling the media that the Madoff situation had no affect on the way he could conduct business in his capacity of Mets general manager. That was now four full months into the job and nearly three months after Picard filed his civil suit against the Wilpons.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703296604576005672465685298.html

    6) The Mets had lost $70 million in 2011. Sandy had already projected losses for 2012 and now with 2013. Irrelevant of the Madoff situation, how – after two months into the job – could he have he not foreseen losses for 2011 while publicly claiming the Mets were on steady financial ground? How could he not conclude – being aware of the financial situation at that time – that these losses would not sink the Mets further into a financial hole? How could he claim it wasn’t a matter not having the money to retain the current roster payroll but rather not having the “additional” resources to spend at that time which would be resolved once the Mets disposed of the contractual obligations after 2011?

    If just was reported by the financial media before he took the job Sandy could not figure out how bad the situation was beforehand, did not vet Selig enough to find out why he was being pushed so hard to take a job he didn’t want, and then could not project even worse financial times ahead I must then conclude that the former MLB Exectutive Of The Year in reality must be a bigger dope than I am.
• james b March 11, 2013 at 3:13 pm

  Let’s not forget no beltran, salary restrictions, 2 very forgettable seasons for bay ( minaya signing ) and santana ( minaya trade ) losing Ike for almost a full season. Always easy to look at records and compare. Minaya was putting up that 79 win team with a higher salary and better talent. This may be the dumbest comparison I ever heard in my life.

  If fred puts the money where his mouth is next year and sandy is able to have the same comfort minaya had with 140 million he already has the team in better shape than omar left it.
  • Joey D. March 11, 2013 at 3:28 pm

    Hi James,

    As you can see by what was presented above, it’s a matter of not believing what Sandy has been telling us from the beginning, from never accepting the job if it meant operating like Oakland till now.

    Can’t blame him for what he was hired to do from a business perspective but it cannot be ignored that his prior decisions regarding baseball matters had little to do with putting a good team on the field or even a cohesive strategy to rebuild and design a new one (for more steps are needed than just hoping that minor league talent alone will bring that about). And, with all the cost cutting measures and re-structuring he has put to place not just on the roster but with the entire organization, he is still projecting financial losses in 2013 even with payroll being reduced further to approximately $90 million. And that is without having to begin paying back loans that were refinanced.

    One cannot invest in good players under those economic conditions.
  • Metsie March 11, 2013 at 3:57 pm

    Actually James you can’t really say he had Beltran to get those 79 wins he got in 2011….
    Beltran wasn’t there for half the season and even less as a contributory player considering how long it took him to get back up to speed on MLB pitching with his bat!

    He also didn’t have a Cy Young Pitcher pitching Cy Young to get those extra wins….
    Didn’t have a full season of Ike Davis hitting 32 HRs either….

    in 2011 you can say Sandy ddn’t have Davis and Santana and even lost a bit of Wright…
    But all those excuses went away in 2012! He had Davis and Wright and half a season of Santana And he lost even MORE games that year!

    So with those guys improving and the addition of Harvey…he actually lost more than he should have when you compare the teams of 2012 and 2010.
    • Valdespin1 March 11, 2013 at 4:15 pm

      And if he had the old core and paid at the old payroll, those extra $60 million would have netted say 10 extra wins? And lost us d’arnaud, wheeler, syndegaard and more?

      So to not make the playoffs, lose building the farm system back and costing $60 million in 2012 and more to the future that would have been sound judgement?

      No it cannot be justified.
      • Metsie March 11, 2013 at 4:30 pm

        Cant lose what you never had….
        An so far we don’t have ANY of them they are all still in the Minors and have yet to rpove any of them are actually worth having….
        • Valdespin1 March 11, 2013 at 4:37 pm

          They are three of the top prospects in all of baseball. Key to the future of the mets.
          • Metsie March 11, 2013 at 4:39 pm

            So was F-Mart, Milledge, Paul Wilson and Bill Pulsipher….

            Just so we know how valid thier rankings in all of baseball (which is really just all of Mets because they aren’t ALL in the top 50 of the MLB) really is….

            Hope and a prayer nothing more…nothing proven…NO FACTS!
            • Valdespin1 March 11, 2013 at 4:56 pm

              Top 4 2010 prospects.

              Heyward
              Strasburg
              Stanton
              Posey

              Enough said.
              • Metsie March 11, 2013 at 5:04 pm

                Ok which of your three boy wonders is in the top 4 of the MLB…Hmmm?

                Yes Nuff said!

                And look at how Heyward did after his rookie year!
                Straussburg still has yet to complete a season…
                Stanton didn’t do much for that team of all stars they went and bought did it? And he won’t be there long will he?
                Posey is the only one on that list who helped his team get a ring!

                So your actually 1 for 4 in the importance of having a top ranked prospect aren’t you?
                Hitting .250…. a little better than Duda did last year!
              • Old School Mets Fan March 11, 2013 at 6:16 pm

                And it these players were top 4 prospects I would agree, but Zack Wheer is 11, D’Arnaud is 23 and Syndegaard is 54 in Baseball America for 2012. Braves Julio Tehran dropped from #5 to 44. Domonic Brown was 2011 #4. A lot of this stuff is which team has the best PR/Hype for their prospects.
      • Joey D. March 11, 2013 at 4:31 pm

        Hi Valdespin,

        I think he could have not only kept the core but added to it – while trading Beltran for Wheeler – at the same time if the economics allowed it to. Think of what 2012 could have been like with KRod still as closer, Pagan still in a Met uniform and a few key and productive additions – and what we did accomplish the first half with no bullpen to speak of and two holes in the outfield – and the extra baggage that was Jason Bay.
        • Valdespin1 March 11, 2013 at 4:47 pm

          The challenge with k-rod was he imploded, got hurt and had a huge albatross of a vesting option sitting out there. Would you have risked that with the odds he could not live up to a salary he was not worth, and in a lockerroom where he was now toxic?

          Mets soured on Pagan and did not want to commit tens of millions to him as they felt he was not all there between the ears. Seriously i wish the giants luck at 4/40 with him. Mig not be a pretty outcome.

          Would you have topped the offer Miami provided for Reyes? A contract with negative value that when coupled with talent like josh johnson, mark buehrle and bonifacio they got back less high end talent than the mets did for dickey.

          And with that plan in place and the bloated obligations to bay and santana, you suggest to trade beltran and add more key pieces?

          What would the payroll of this team have been and if doing all that how to you trade beltran.
          • Metsie March 11, 2013 at 4:59 pm

            How can you say a guy on the path to 46 saves was not worth that money?

            That many saves would have made him 3rd best closer in the game last year!
            He would have been a lowly 4th in 2011 if he continued to save games at the pace he was….

            And considering your dismissal of valdespin’s antics where he has upset his teamates I fail to see how you can even dare mention K-Rods lockeroom likebility…
    • Joey D. March 11, 2013 at 4:26 pm

      Hi Metsie,

      And to add to that is what I mentioned previously – that by late July, 2011 Sandy was shown this team could compete by playing at a .575 clip for over half a season . It had fallen apart for all the reasons you stated above,

      However, he said it was a matter of not having additional resources that kept him from acquiring free agents in 2011 (the “transition” year) so what else would have prevented him from looking past 2011 to 2012 when he could add to the team that was playing so well the year before? He had the resources to pay for 2011 (and that had to include KRod’s $17 million vesting option.

      He already had $18 million saved from no longer having Perez and Castillo. Let us just say he really believed he could not pass up the opportunity to acquire Wheeler. Without Beltran’s salary would meant $35 million, enough to re-sign Reyes and keep KRod (who was still under contract), acquire a replacement for Beltran and get some pitching help. That would have meant not sacrificing any of our prospects, keeping Wheeler and still being a competitive force in 2012.

      Moves reflecting those types of steps would have been the logical way to handle things based on 2011 and having the money he said he did not have in 2011. That’s looking at the future for both the short-term (2012, 2013) and the long-term beyond that point. From a competitive stand point, that did not happen because of economic restraint. And if it did not happen due to financial problems, then it is a reflection of a very short-sighted front office when it comes to baseball matters.
      • Metsie March 11, 2013 at 4:35 pm

        He may have said he didn’t have the resources but his action caused a loss of attendance from the trend it was on at the time and in the end he cost himself MORE resources than if he had gotten them help!
      • Valdespin1 March 11, 2013 at 5:18 pm

        “He already had $18 million saved from no longer having Perez and Castillo. Let us just say he really believed he could not pass up the opportunity to acquire Wheeler. Without Beltran’s salary would meant $35 million, enough to re-sign Reyes and keep KRod (who was still under contract), acquire a replacement for Beltran and get some pitching help. That would have meant not sacrificing any of our prospects, keeping Wheeler and still being a competitive force in 2012.”

        The perez / castillo deals were sunk.

        So you are just taking beltran off the books and asking to pay $17.5 million for krod and about the same for reyes (say $17) and a replacement for beltran (say $12) and pitching help (say $10). Thats $57 million in year one, plus more in following years, just because $17 million was saved on beltran.

        Numbers dont compute.
        • Old School Mets Fan March 11, 2013 at 6:04 pm

          Perez/Castillo came off at the end of 2011, so they were not yet sunk. If you then do Beltran (he was making $19 million) for Wheeler; that’s $38 million off the books from 2011. If you could have kept Reyes at $17 million and the payroll would be about $100 million. I also think Reyes liked it here and could have bell-curved his contract like Wright while we waited for Santana and Bay to expire. With a $110 million payroll; that would still leave $10 million for relief help. I do think K-Rod was too expensive and needed to be traded, but $10 million could have been better spent than on the Francisco/Rauch tandem.But Reyes at short with Tejada at 2d with Murph as the utility would have greatly improved the 2012 offense and defense and you still have Wheeler at the end of the day and could better tolerate the outfield being what it is.
          • Valdespin1 March 11, 2013 at 7:43 pm

            Unfortunately with the payroll to santana bay wright and then reyes plus dickey pelfrey niese and a closer that eam even at $110 million would be seriously flawed in the outfield, catcher starting pitching and bullpen.
        • Joey D. March 11, 2013 at 10:45 pm

          Hi Valdy,

          As old school confirmed, the numbers do compute. And you failed to include the money saved by having Tejada take over and not re-signing Reyes. That brings the savings to somewhere in the neighborhood of $45 million, including the retention of indeed an overpaid KRod who nevertheless was ions better than anyone else we had or Sandy brought in. Even spending just half would have enabled Sandy to shore up the bullpen further, keep Pagan (whose suffering from an acute case of colitis caused his lack of concentration, mood swings and poor first half performance) and obtain the needed players in July by the use of that cash and not so high level prospects – which Sandy himself had done with McGwire in Oakland – getting low level prospects in return for dumping Marc McGwire (steroids and all).

          So Sandy inherited a team with a lot of options to improve upon and not sacrifice for the future. As said, he could have traded Beltran in 2011 and used the money saved for a replacement.

          The Wilpons can’t afford to field a competitive team and if one can’t do that in the biggest baseball market in the country, then they should sell the club since it was their outside baggage that affecting the team financially, not the roster payroll. Or, if they want to retain the club through their tough economic times, at least level with the fans that the days of obtaining those “inexpensive” players that Sandy admitted one could not expect to win with are still not over – for no matter how well the prospects turn out, without the added support from outside the organization, the Mets will still be lacking the final ingredients to make them true contenders.
• Valdespin1 March 11, 2013 at 5:07 pm

  What closer earns $17.5 million per year.

  Is k-rod worth that or even have a team in 2013?
  • Joey D. March 11, 2013 at 10:23 pm

    Hi Valdy,

    No baseball player deserves the money he makes. No fan deserves to be charged an average $241 (as computed in 2011) to go to Citi Field. No rookie deserves to make five times more than one who has been a registered nurse for many a year, putting in long hours and saving lives. No 18 year old kid deserves to get $2.1 million because he played baseball in high school.

    But that is the way it is, unfair and frustrating as it may be. Player contracts, no matter how insane they are, are perceived simply as investments by owners in order to reap in so much more in ticket sales, concession sales, television and merchandising. Yes, there is a limit to how much they should invest but according to Sandy, the problem back in 2010 was not having the resources to field the payroll they had at the time, but having a limited amount of additional resources to build upon that.

    The Mets are not in that position and all the posturing in world won’t hide the facts as I had listed previously and that producing a competitive team takes a back seat to keeping the Wilpons from having to sell the club. Otherwise, there would be more moves made to “re-build” than we’ve seen to this time beyond trading for highly touted prospects.
• Valdespin1 March 11, 2013 at 5:09 pm

  Those are 4 of the most valuble players in mlb. It would be astronomical in return if any of them were traded.