6
2013
Terry Collins’ No-Win Situation
An article by 
When Terry Collins was introduced as Mets manager on November 23rd, 2010, he was far from the unanimous choice amongst those who cover the team. Known more for his short temper and self-destructive ways than his managing prowess, many feared the aging skipper may not be up for the job. Two years later, the now 63 year old Collins boasts a 151-173 record since his arrival and enters the season on the final year of his original three year contract with much skepticism about his future in Queens. During a recent blogger teleconference, Mike Silva of Sports Media Watchdog asked Sandy Alderson: “…what do you need to see from Terry Collins to extend his contract?” Sandy replied:
“There two things upon which a manager is evaluated. One is wins and losses, and the other is the improvements of the players on the team. Regardless whether it’s a veteran-dominated team or a younger team, players have to improve, More importantly, they have to be motivated, and that’s partly where the manager comes in. I think Terry will be evaluated on both of those basis, with the understanding that wins and losses are not an absolute. To some extent, they are relevant to the talent we have.”
Now I’m not necessarily here to argue whether or not Terry Collins does or doesn’t deserve a contract extension. While I think he has done an admirable job with the players he’s been given, I would agree that there is no rush to extend a manager who has been unable to avoid a major second half swoon in each of his seasons in New York. My question in this instance is given these parameters, how exactly does Collins stand even the slightest chance in earning the contract extension his covets?
The first factor Alderson mentions is wins and losses. Collins first two seasons in Queens yielded 77 and 74 wins respectively. In that time, the Mets have jettisoned an all-star batting champion and a Cy Young award winner. In addition to those losses, Alderson has outfitted the 2013 Mets with nothing that resembles a Major League caliber outfield. Those facts don’t come together to form a recipe for success. In fact, its reasonable to think that Collins’ goal this summer should be as much to limit the damage as it is to win more games than in seasons past.
From there we’re forced to discuss individual player development. This too is difficult for me to wrap my head around. From a long-term approach, there are no more than three or four position players who have a real future with the Mets. I anticipate that player development would have to apply to players like Ruben Tejada, Daniel Murphy and to a lesser extent Ike Davis, than to more established players like David Wright. Outside of the infield, there isn’t much development to be had. Outfield turnover is in the cards heading into next winter and other positions will be occupied by players making the Major League debut later this summer. This leaves precious few players who hold Collins’ fate in their hands.
If the Mets somehow rip off a .500 season or better this year, it would be tough to argue that Collins hasn’t earned his money. However, if they don’t as most of us expect, I don’t see many ways in which Collins’ tenure can be extended based upon Sandy Alderson’s answer to Silva’s very legitimate question. Only so much can be said for effort over results, and its the results that Collins has lacked to date. Has Collins plight become a lost cause, or does he have it in him to win the confidence of the Mets’ brass? Regardless of what players head north in a few weeks’ time, the deck is stacked against the Mets’ skipper. The writing is already on the wall and it appears, at least from where I’m sitting, that this will be Collins final season with the New York Mets.
If you like what you read, follow me on Twitter at @RobPatterson83.
About the Author: Rob Patterson
Ultimately, I owe nearly thirty years of Mets related torture to my mother, who is the reason I became a fan. I was too young to remember the 86 run, but hope to see one I'll be able to recall much sooner than later. I enjoy writing about the team and welcome your feedback on my posts. Oh..and I am not with 28!
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“There two things upon which a manager is evaluated. One is wins and losses, and the other is the improvements of the players on the team. ”
Ohhh, so he’s gone this year…… The way i look at it is, if your players are developing, then the team becomes good, however, it seems as if alderson didn’t think the team was or has improved nor the players, otherwise, why sit on your hands 2 straight midseason while the team is fighting for a playoff spot? This team at this point is what it is, it has 3 or 4 good players, 3 or 4 so so players and a bunch of scrubs trying to prove themselves, that equals mediocrity at best.
I happen to like Terry, but it’s kind of hard to evaluate him given he’s never had a good roster to work with.
Hard to say. He’s had a good roster, but injuries, injuries, trades and the FO staying put derail any chance to evaluate him. Fundamentaly, which is collins biggest strenght, this team is still comical on the field.
But if anything, blame the FO for not adding players to the team that fit his style of coaching i guess.. Either way, unless the mets miracoulsly make a deep run, i see this guy gone, and BOB GEREN (Sandy alderson’s guy for real) will be the interim coach of this team, probably permanent, because he is the guy the FO brought in to implement their “Phylosophy” on the team.
not sure that’s accurate although we can guarantee it wont be Wally Backman.
Depending on how the season plays out, I’d like to see him return. If the players Sandy provided wind up being crappy, it shouldn’t be his fault.
TYPICALY BEING OVERLOOKED IS THE LIJKELY TREMENDOUS CHALLENGE BACKMAN IS ABOUT TO FACE DEALING WITH HIS PERSONAL DEMONS SURROUNDED BY THEIR PLAYGROUND KNOWN AS LAS VEGAS. NO SCANDALOUS BEHAVIOR, BACKMAN SURVIVES, ANYTHING ELSE HE;S LIKELY RESIDING IN A CELL ADJACENT WITH DYKSTRA. SIMILAR TO ’86 LINEUP.LOL
AS FOR TERTY’S LAMEDUCK STATUS?
IN MY ESTIMATION A TYPICAL NY TEMPEST IN A SHOTGLASS ISSUE BTW, LA NEVER,EVER QUAKED WHEN ALSTON ONLY GOT SUCCESSIVE 1Y DEALS. OR LASORDA FOR THAt matter. ONLY IN NY DOES NEXT YR’S QUESTION DEMAND THIS YEAR’S ANSWER. WHY?
WHO ON THIS TEAM IS LIKELY TO BE DISTRACTED BY NOT KNOWING WHO THE MNGR IS FOR 2014 ESPECIALLY AS WRIGHT IS THE ONLY ONE ASSURED TO BE HERE. MOST OF TODAY’S METS ARE LIKELY TO BE WONDERING WHERE T H E Y WILL BE IN 2014. NOT TC’S WHEREABOUTS.
Depending on how the season plays out, I’d like to see him return. If the players Sandy provided wind up being crappy, it shouldn’t be his fault.”
Oleo, but we both know ultimately it will. SA won’t take the blame nor the fault for his garbage players being, well garbage, instead collins will get the ax, however, ironic that if the players he brought in becomes good under collins tutorial, collins won’t get the credit, SA will and we will never hear the end of it… SO it’s a win win for sandy..
I know you’re against rebuilding and all, but this situation is different since everyone knows the Mets roster is below average.
I highly doubt he is going to throw Terry under the bus to cover up his mistakes. If the OF stinks and our pitchers are injured/ineffective, I expect him to take full responsibility for it.
The only way I see him getting fired mid-season is if the team gives up on him…
This is the point I was trying to make – only you said it better.
Oleo, rebuilding what? in order to rebuild shouldn’t you drastically get rid of as many veterans on the team in order to bring in more young players in? got rid of dickey, ok, what else? We signed a 30 year old guy to an 8 year deal, didn’t sign half of our draft picks last year, kept hairston when we could’ve gotten something of value for him, not sure what exactly we’re doing, but rebuilding is not the word in mind, more like half assing it.
Alex, not sure what roster you are looking at but it’s incredibly young. We only have 3 guys on the 40 man who were born in the 70′s. All 1979 and all 3 pitchers. Johan, Marcum and FFF. We have only got 18/40 that were even born when the Mets won their last WS and even have 5 born in the 1990′s. No youth does not = great players always. Just saying that this team is much younger than it was 3 years ago.
Ok, are they any good????? BEcause is easy to say we have young players, again, are they any good? check the pirates roster, check the royals roster and get back at me… Rebuilding my ass…..
Again Alex, you can’t say ” in order to rebuild shouldn’t you drastically get rid of as many veterans on the team in order to bring in more young players in? ” when the team has basically done that.
Your definition of rebuilding and the Mets definition do not have to match. However, I am guessing that if you ask all the baseball executives in the MLB they would indeed say the Mets are rebuilding. I don’t think any logical person would debate the fact that they are in rebuild mode. What you can debate is the strategy being used to rebuild.
What you are doing is looking at an car and saying it’s not even a car while others are debating what kind of car it is.
Hold the presses – I thought you were buying into Alderson’s plan? When you said you were, Jessep thought you were kidding, complemented your humor, then you called him out for baiting you, so which was it, I’m so confused…………..yeah ok
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2013/03/featured-post-is-it-time-to-start-buying-into-sandy-aldersons-plan.html
Kay, do me a favor before i report you to joe d for trying to instigate me and baiting me, please do not respond nor comment towards me, i have 0 desire to engage in a baseball conversation with you or the foremention person. i have been warned by Joe D to stay away from that person, i am aasking you to please do not bother me, follow me, instigate me or try to bait me as you often do, you never come in here to talk baseball just to instigate. thank you.
Ironic – lol
Thing is, I’m not so sure TC wants an extension as manager.
I don’t think he was ever the plan for long term. I believe he’ll go back to his former position with the Mets, or something similar.
Might be the reason why he sounds so unconcerned when they keep asking him about an extension. Might be he already knows he’ll be bumped back up, instead of just fired.
SRT, i agree… But it’s also hard to imagine him not getting fired if the team starts poorly and around may they’re completely out of it no? Like i said, imho, unless the mets catch the league by surprise like the did last year, i do not see this guy lasting all season. the team lacks talent and good players. hard to see their phylosophy working again as it did last year in the first half with even less talented players on the roster.
As SRT said, I don’t think he ever intended or did the Mets intend on him coaching past this year. He had a specific job to do and his contract years were determined based on that. IMO so is Alderson. He is not campaigning for an extension either because I don’t think that was ever an issue.
Well, I still don’t think he’ll be fired. He might be replaced as manager mid season but I still believe he’ll be retained in the organization.
As some others have stated, he’s not been given a whole lot to work with since he’s been manager. Unless there’s some controversy surrounding him as manager this season, I see him being retained.
Will see, but if the team starts, idk, 14-30 don’t you think EVERYONE will be calling for someone’s head? maybe his? Because as we seen, it doesn’t matter how bad the team is, the GM is not going anywhere anytime soon, so with his boy geren in place, collins will be the scapegoat
I think what she is saying Alex is that he has a job in the organization no matter what. They may replace him at manager if they are stinking but he will have a spot.
TRS, if he’s fired how can he still have a job within the org? you mean like a demotion?
Yes, he might be replaced as manager but he will not be fired from the organization.
Yeah, this is what I’m saying.
I don’t think the organization expects this team to do much better than .500 – no matter what they might be saying publicly.
As long as there’s not controversy going on in the clubhouse between Terry and the players, I think he’ll be safe. Might not be as manager – or might be replaced as manager at the end of the year – but he’ll probably be retained in some capacity within the organization.
He is Stump Merrill. An oldtime baseball guy who was given a babysitting job. He has done it well. And he has shown a lot more pride than the ownership or front office has. He is in a no win situation. He has a better chance of being extended if the “high end prospects ” Alderson has acquired don’t take the next step this year at their prospective levels. Given our “window for success” will push out even further.
From Wikipedia:
In May 2011, Geren’s managerial style came under scrutiny by Bay Area press after then-closer Brian Fuentes criticized Geren’s “unorthodox managing”, handling of pitchers and “zero communication”.The following day former A’s closer and then-Colorado Rockie Huston Street stated to a reporter Geren was the “least favorite person I have ever encountered in sports.” Fuentes later apologized to Geren for going public with his comments, and A’s owner Lew Wolff endorsed Geren as the A’s manager. Geren was let go on June 9, 2011.
On October 14, 2011, the Mets hired Geren to be the teams new bench coach replacing former bench coach Ken Oberkfell
Collins didn’t come with a sparkling past either.
Joe, thanks for this.. But again, we’ve seen how much of a ******** our GM is, so usually people like that, associate with people like geren, so…. yeah… Ohh, and the difference between him and collins’ past? Collins was a coach, won games and was known as a player’s coach.
Collins was known as a players coach?
“Until the Mets hired him in November 2010, Mr. Collins hadn’t managed in the big leagues since 1999. The knock on him all those years ago was his intensity, described even by friends as “seething.” He bore down so hard and so hot that the Angels staged a clubhouse mutiny and Collins resigned with a month left to play in ’99. Before that, it was the unhappy Astros. But people change. “
Collins is largely in a no win situation. He inherited a team being rebuilt, or retooled if you prefer, and as such has been given largely 2nd string reinforcement (I.e., Francisco as closer, Torres in CF, Carrasco, Bautista, Rameriz, Young, etc.). It’s difficult to generate wins with 2nd division additions like that, no matter how well you motivate your players. And generally speaking, his players like playing for him because he seems to have reinvented himself from years past. And the 2nd half meltdowns were a byproduct of a flawed team that didn’t receive any, or much, help from the front office. I’m not necessarily blaming the GM for this because he was right to not overpay with prospects for marginal improvement. That would detract from the plan to build up the farm system. In my opinion, Collins’ job is more of a custodial nature, holding down the fort until the young talent has matured to impact the big league team (I.e., Harvey, Wheeler, D’Arnaud, Flores, etc.). I think the plan all along was for Terry to manage for 3-4 years, help guide some of the younger players, and then hand over the reigns to a younger, energetic replacement. Who that is, I don’t know, but that’s just my take on the situation.
I agree with you 86. In my humble opinion its been an ownership and micromanagement issue. They signed alot of bad and stupid contracts they are still paying, ie; Bonilla. This ownership is in love and mourning the Old Brooklyn Dodgers and wishes to create shrines for them in Queens. They have been rudderless and at times have been caught up with trying to compete with the Yankee’s for the back pages. Its pretty much been a circus act, much like the Jets whom they used to share a building with. Like we say, any New York team ends in “ETS” sucks and will always do so. Im a lifelong fan, from childhood, can never bandwagon because its just not my style so I guess I hibernate thru the bad years. Im hoping this time around, after restocking the minors and getting out from the financial mess the ownership put ITSELF in, we may have a respectable franchise….Big wish, Im thinking.
Collins has handled the “Face of the Team” job incredibly well! Medial Relations and Player Relations have been been almost flawlessly executed by TC…. that includes several High Priced Diva situations from Frankie to Carlos to Bay—and NOW Santana. Terry has kept those situations on a Calm simmer, time after time. In a losing situation, under a microscope, in the midst of a Crazy Ownership/FO cycle, he has been the portrait of calm and positive direction.
It’s tough to analyse his in-game technicals. It’s almost meaningless with a 70 win team—and it’s generally over-rated on a winner. What you can observe is MANAGEMENT—Man Management. Joe Torre was a very UN-Technical Manager throughout his Yankee success—but he Kept the Baseball Team focused on Baseball. I think that’s especially important, ESPECIALLY in the NY Market.
Terry is not Campaigning publicly for Re-Hire…. he will be quickly hired by another team if the Mets don’t re-up him. He has resurrected his managerial career in excellent fashion. He will Manage beyond this season…..somewhere.
Agree with everything you said Eric, dead on. After watching this, somehow I wish they could trade owners, the Wilpons have been a disaster at the helm.
ERic, i notice you said :”Collins has handled the “Face of the Team” job incredibly well! Medial Relations and Player Relations have been been almost flawlessly executed by TC…. that includes several High Priced Diva situations from Frankie to Carlos to Bay—and NOW Santana”
also, don’t forget how proffessional he was when david “The golden captain ambassador” almost beat him up in front of everyone and stay as calm as possible while the leader of the team was screaming and embarrassing collins in front of the world. Kudos to collins on that situation as well right?
Oh thank God, Alex, I was afraid you might go an entire day without disparaging that overrated rat fink David Wright. No chance of that.
RUSSELL; BUT THANK THE LORD HE’S OUR “RATFINK” LMAO!
You’re welcome russell… Just had to make sure no double standard post were being thrown out there. i am like the DS police in here, won’t allow it.
I think TC can be fairly criticized for a lot of in-game poor decision-making skills, especially reliever match ups. Overall, I like how he has managed the team, and he is a player’s manager. Despite a few dust-ups (more or less bound to happen in trying seasons), I think TC is respected as much as he is liked by the players.
Having talked of his quality, I don’t see him as a manager leading a team to glory. If this isn’t his last year, I’ll be stunned; he needs the proverbial miracle.
Some great points here with concern to the “crazy” ownership of this organization. We would have been better off if the Commissioner forced the Wilpon’s and the McCourts to swap frnachises. Fred is a frustrated Dodger fan no doubt…just look at what he did in designing Citi Field itself. What a joke!
In so far as Terry Collins goes (or stays)…he has done a good job working with practically nothing in terms of quality established players. Is it his fault that the team showed promise in the first half of the last 2 seasons but looked horrible after the All Star game both times? It is n early impossible for a team to play a whole season “above their heads” A 162 game season is a marathon not a 100 yard dash. Cream rises to the top by September folks!
Our GM has made trades to strengthen our weaknesses and gaping holes. He has done so without committing big bucks to he new pieces of his puzzle. His one big signing deal was David Wright who will hopefully still be productive by the time that the young prospects he dealt for will have matured into ML stars.
Once again…..SANDY ALDERSON IS NOT THE BAD GUY HERE….
If and when the Wilpon’s can spend money on Free Agents of quality we will hopefully find a couple of very solid if not star quality outfielders
Will Terry Collins be around by 2014 when Santana is off the books? The 30 million dollars would sure help bring some quality to our weak outfield as it stands now. Truthfully, it may not matter at all to Terry Collins by then as he knows exactly the kind of job he has done under the conditions he has been forced to deal with!
Our GM has made trades to strengthen our weaknesses and gaping holes”
His one big signing deal was David Wright who will hopefully still be productive by the time that the young prospects he dealt for will have matured into ML stars.”
Once again…..SANDY ALDERSON IS NOT THE BAD GUY HERE…”
I, sincerely hope you are kidding…….
It all depends on how long this re-building process takes and that gets determined by the development of the prospects.
If the prospects develop as planned or are better than expected then they will spend more. If not, then another year of rebuilding…
If the prospects develop as planned or are better than expected then they will spend more. If not, then another year of rebuilding…”
and so on and on and on we go… kinda like the pirates since 1992 right????????
Personally Oleo, if they don’t spend following this season then I am off the wagon as well. To me when they fired Omar I started looking toward the 2014 season as when they should have prospects ready and money to spend. If that doesn’t happen I think the Wilpons will move on.
Personally I am undecided if I want Collins back next season.
Count me there as well.
Under normal circumstance I would agree that a series of second half swoons should be counted against a manager….
But in this case I find it difficult to pin it all on the Manager when the GM throws in the towel and calls the year a loss every July since tery took over…
Having your GM go on TV and say This is not the year we are now in NEXT YEAR mode will take the life out of any team!
Yes the players had a long losing streak in July even BEFORE that towel came onto the stage but for one it was the toughest stretch of competitors on thier entire schedule (Atl, WAS, DODGERS (healthy again) and NATS a second time)
And they had to do it without Gee and a post NONO shakey Santana.
Bringing up Harvey instead of the attemt to get by with Hefner and Batista might have given them some energy and life to win a few more….
Maybe some help in the OF with a bat could have helped…
Sandy changed his tune from buyer somewhere around Jul 19th…
Maybe if he had waited they don’t get swept by the dodgers and Nats after that.
SO I can’t put it all on Terry as far as secong half swoons goes in 2012…
2011 it was the trade of K-Rod and Beltran coupled with the loss of Murphy that sucked the life out of them….
Not really a lack of motivation on the part of Terry…
I won’t say Terry is the best manager you could ever get…
My concern is his being UP all the time will eventually wear thin…Or lose it’s effectiveness.
I can’t cite anything that says he deserves to be fired and I can see a few things that says he should get an extention…
But I think he will be thrown on the sword to buy some more time for the FO and it will be interesting to see what they do in the second half this time around now that they have two guys to bring up to boost the energy level midpoint, and if they are telling the truth on spending have no excuses to not be buyers at the deadline.
Are you counting 2010 as well?
How long has it been since the Mets made a in season significant addition?
LOL some would say the last time was the hernandez trade!
But I think Piazza probably qualifies as well.
The bigger issue is they have not done well in trades on the whole!
Rarely have they ever traded for a great player (you could prob count it on one hand)
Lets see just off the top of my head….
Staub (stretch I know but I like him!)
Hernandez
Carter
Piazza
Viola (yes another stretch there)
Who else?
I mean thats what I came up with in 50 seasons to work with off the top of my head…
I’m sure I’m missing some that the peanut gallery will fill in…
Useful but not great was Don Clendenon.
Terry wasnt the manager in 2010….
So I’m not sure I get the question?
2010 had it’s own issues….
No Beltran the first half, half a Beltran the second half (due to missed time and trying to get up to MLB speed while the rest of the league pitchers were already in mid season form), Bay being lost to a fence…
And a GM under fire and unable to make any moves to help at the deadline
As far as Manuel is concerned lets face it he was for all intents and purposes fired before the season even started…..
Thats the only difference between his situation and Terry’s this year (both being lame duck managers without contract at the end of the year).
Both could be said to have sufferred under the conditions of the team they were given.
The one knock on Manuel is the manager does bear some responsibility for keeping his players healthy…and that didn’t happen in 2009 and 2010.
Significant in-season acquisitions —
2007– Luis Castillo
2006– Maine/El Duque for Jorge Julio; Perez/Roberto Hernandez for Xavier Nady
2004 — Wiggington/Kazmir for Benson/Zambrano
2000– Mike Bordick for Melvin Mora
1999– Kenny Rogers for Terence Long
1999- Billy Taylor for Izzy
So always be careful what you wish for when it comes to deadline deals.
Listen, I’ve always been under the impression that Collin’s lame duck status is designed to give Sandy someone to throw under the bus if the Mets do as expected.
The New York press will indeed be calling for someone’s head when the Mets falter and of course Sandy will be under the microscope considering he is the architect of the philosophy that anyone not named Wright who is paid well must be gutted from the team for very cheap minor league prospects.
But Sandy is not going to fire himself and Fred and Chip (Jeff) aren’t not going to fire the man who knocked almost 60 million from their budget – so that leaves the field general – Collins – who will most certainly be deep sixed. (Whether or not they keep Collins on as a consultant is not really relevant).
This will distract the press and buy Sandy some valuable time to continue to slash and burn. He will say upon the firing that his focus in now on 2014.
And maybe if Sandy is lucky, he’ll hire a manager that he can fire again next year so he can say his focus is now firmly on 2015.
And on and on.
Oh, the horror….
AGE, OLD FRIEND, IT’S LIKELY TO BE VERY,VERY DIFFICULT TO MISS THE ANTICIPATED 2013 MARK OF SUB.500 4th PLACE FINISH HELL, EVEN THE MODEST GOAL OF MEANINGFUL GAMES HAS REACHED IT’S ANTICIPATORY EXPIRATION DATE. BESIDES AS WE SAW WITH JERRY MANUEL, AN EXTENSION @ NYM MNGR PAYSCALE IS HARDLY A SECURITY BLANKET.
THE MORE I REFLECT UPON THIS UPCOMUING SEASON, THE MORE EASILY I ENVISION A 3-TEAM POSITIONAL JOCKEYING FOR 3rd,4th,5th BETWEEN PHL,NYM,MIA SIMPLY BECAUSE DC & ATL ARE SURELY IN A LEAGUE OF THEIR OWN IN THE EAST OF THE NL. I SURELY DOUBT ANYONE WITH ANY POWER IN NY ANTICIPATES MORE THAN 75-79Ws IN 2014.
AGE, HERE’S A FUNNY CONSIDERATION AS A MONIKER FOR THE FUTURE ROTATION WE’RE LIKELY TO SEE “BROTHERHOOD OF THE SWITCHABLE PANTS” AS OTHER THAN WAISTE SIZE THE LENGTH OF EVERYONE PROJECTED AS LIKELY DESTINED FOR ROTATION DUTY WOULD SUFFICE CONSIDER THIS DATA:
HARVEY 6’4″ 225#
WHEELER 6’4″ 185#
NIESE 6’4″ 215#
GEE 6’4″ 185#
SYNDERGAARD 6’5″ 200#
AS DARYL DID IN HONOR OF DOC, PANTS EXCHANGES SHOULD GO UNNOTICED AS SOME NEED TO TIGHTEN THEIR BELTS A BIT MORE TO NOT BE REWPRESENTING THE HOOD ON THE MOUND…LOL
HERE’S MY FINISH PREDICTION FOR NLE DIVISION IN 2013 ASSUMING HEALTH PREVAILS FOR ALL:
ATLANTA
DC
PHL
NYM
MIA
ATL’S OVERPOWERING OFFENSE & OVERWHELMING BULLPEN CLOSES ROTATION GAP DUE NATS & ULTIMATLY SURPASSES THEM IN THE STADINGS. PHL OFFENSE STRUGGLES DUE TO INCONSISTANT ROLLINS, UTLEY & HOWARD PERFORMANCES
62 – Old buddy-
Never underestimate the power of the waist size.
VERY FUNNY, AGE; HOWEVER I THOUGHT THAT CONCERN DEPARTED WITH HEILMAN, MAINE, PELFREY & PEREZ
OH YEAH! FORGIVE ME THEY WERE COUNTED AS WASTE-SIZE, NOT WAIST SIZE
LMAO,REPEATEDLY TILL IT HURTS
I said the same thing long before they even picked the manager…
We all knew a rebuild was coming and the team was going to have some bad years…
And someone was going to have to pay the price for that regardless of them deserving it.