Mets Rotation Facing Huge Hurdles Ahead Of Season Opener

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• Met Maniac March 21, 2013 at 1:20 pm

  BINGO!

  “Valdespin has had a good spring with the bat, but he’s never put it together for a full season. And, that includes his attitude and hustle.”

  I must have imagined that comment by Delcos. Would love to see him explain that one to me. And when was Valdespin EVER given a chance to play a full season when all he’s ever served was an emergency call-up whenever someone landed on the DL?

  You want to talk about hustle? How about Wright and Baxter being thrown out at first because they didn’t run hard out of the box last season? How about Baxter getting thrown out advancing to second on a base hit single?

  Delcos, write another tear-jerker about White-stone Mike.
  • TRS86 March 21, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    In all seriousness that is a stupid quote. I don’t think that implies that Delcos has issues with race, only that he had a MC moment of baffling a line.
  • Alex68 March 21, 2013 at 1:54 pm

    Maniac, why is this surprising to you AT ALL?? Is not as if the first (Nor will be the last) minority bashing article from john. He somehow discredit everything reyes, beltran and Delgado did for the franchise yet annoints wright as the second coming of Joe DiMaggio… SMH…
    • Major Mangu March 21, 2013 at 7:59 pm

      Today John Delcos said…

      http://www.newyorkmetsreport.com/

      “The Mets also let Pedro Martinez march to his own tune with mixed results for several years. Is Pedro pitching today? What’s going on with Pedro? It was like that every spring.

      The Mets did everything they could, including alienating a future Hall of Famer, Tom Glavine, to placate Martinez and his whims.”

      Ummm…exactly how did the Mets alienate Tom Glavine???

      another curious head scratcher….
• Metsie March 21, 2013 at 1:36 pm

  You know I’m glad you pointed out that we signed a Free Agent out of shape…

  Why didn’t they make this guy throw for them the way they made Brian Wilson throw and determined he wasn’t ready yet?

  As far as Gee is concerned I’m not…
  He is a breaking ball Pitcher and they ALWAYS take the entire spring to get thier mechanics and pitches over….

  You hope he gets it before the season starts and he may not but I’m not too concerned about his progress at this point. A guy who lives off spin mechanics always takes longer than guy who throw heat.
• Popster March 21, 2013 at 1:51 pm

  Why on earth would a team in dire straits (the Mets) in need of talent at virtually every position, have d’Arnaud and Wheeler in the minors when they can get invaluable experience in The Show, right now, during a year when the Mets will be extremely poor, if not the worst team in the NL, which they are at the moment without Wright, with the depleted rotation, lack of pop and no true starting catcher?

  For some reason, fans feel they need to protect the Wipons’ money. Even if the Wilpons did spend wisely, which they do not, it is not our problem and we shouldn’t care. We should want the best players on the Varsity which means d’Arnaud and Wheeler (unless not healthy) right now. This is especially true for d’Arnaud, catcher being far and away the most important position player on the field.

  Some clubs have gotten hip to the nonsense of the “protection” mystique and a new trend is setting in whereby players such as Chris Sale on the White Sox and according to reports, Posey will be signed to nice contracts way before they approach free agency, thereby actually enabling the team to control such players longer than if they kept them down on the farm that extra month. The Mets wisely did this with Niese and IF Wheeler and d’Arnaud are as good as the forecast, deal with it then, after a very good year or two, reward them early, as they wisely did with Niese. Much more astute. This removes the “control for another year” nonsense from the mix.

  Let’s find out if the 24 year old d’Arnaud has got the goods – it looks to me that he does – and let Wheeler feel his way as Glavine, Smoltz and Avery did when they broke in. It is simply not true that a 24 year old with d’Araud’s skills needs more seasoning in the minors. There are exceptions to bringing guys up when too young, he’s not one of them, especially in the Mets’ situation. Although Nimmo seems to be far and away the best outfielder the Mets have on any level in the organization, I guess he needs more time to work it out, but if you have watched his swing (looks a bit like Harper) and movement, I’m not sure about that really.

  I love the Mets, but not this regime
  • TX March 21, 2013 at 3:43 pm

    Because it will save them millions by extending the control and not having to have them attain super 2 status, thus giving them 4 years of arbitration vs. the standard 3. Teams all do this. Only one in recent memory that hasn’t was SF with Posey.

    I’m not a big fan of the rule and wish there was a way that if could be revised, because you are right in that they should be able to start the season with the big club (well, Darno at least).
    • Metsie March 21, 2013 at 4:10 pm

      But TX whatever you think your saving is going to be lost due to the inflation of players contract in the extra year anyway!

      The only way to ACTUALLY save money by delaying his start for a year is to not resign him when he becomes a free agent!
      Cause then you never pay him that BIG buck contract at all….

      But Arbitration numbers go up based on what everyone else at the position gets paid and even if you save a few mil by not having to go through ARB a year earlier you only wind up paying most of it the year he DOES hit Arb…

      So your no really saving anything just delaying payments with interest added.
      • van March 21, 2013 at 4:48 pm

        4 years of arbitration is always going to cost more than 3. Because arbitration is rigged to give rasies every year (and a 3rd year guy will usually get more than a “better” 1st year guy).

        by avoiding super 2 you are effectively replacing the most expensive (4th year) of arb with another pre-arb minimum (mlb) wage year. Someone on another site recently did a study, and for higher echelon players, that averaged out to about $12,000,000 a player. A serious amount of coin to a team.

        and that includes guys that have arb + FA bought out early (like Neise). With only 3 arb years, the cost to lock them up is lower.

        on a team with a moderate budget, that is like getting a “Free” FA along the lines of a Bourn for every D’arno/wheeler that doesn’t make it into the super 2 class.
        • Metsie March 21, 2013 at 4:56 pm

          But van by waiting a year all your doing is amortizing what you hink you saved on year four over the first three years…

          It goes up every year based on Salaries and therefore Year 1 in 2013 is cheaper than a Year one in 2014…

          SO whatever you thought you were saving on Year four was lost to paying more in years 1-3.

          Better way to save money is to buy out the Arb Years entirely! And the YOUNGER you get a player going the less AGE and PRIME are factors….

          He’s 24 by the time he is in that 4th year how old will he be? Do you want to give a long term FA contract to a guy who is in his late 20′s early 30′s?

          Delaying the clock is fine if your still in the middle of rebuilding a team that won’t be finished for a few years….

          But most people think Wheeler and d’Arnaud ARE the finishing touches with maybe one power hitter like Stanton left to get…..

          If thats the case the money doesn’t make waiting worth it, lets FINISH the team this year let them work thier way through the MLB competition so they can hit the MLB production ground running in 2014 when this team is supposedly ready to start competing….

          That few millions saved is not really worth it when you consider that all you did was increase the freight your paying in the first three years due to salary inflation of the rest of the league.
  • taskmaster4450 March 21, 2013 at 6:20 pm

    It is more than just arbitration. The most important factor is FA. Do you want Wheeler and TDA hitting FA after 2018 or 2019. A month or so is equal to 1 year when it comes to that.
    • Metsie March 21, 2013 at 6:37 pm

      Ok so FA…Ask yourself this…
      Who would you rather give a 6 years deal to for Megabucks?

      a 31 year old? or a 32 Year old?

      And delaying by a year what you pay in FA costs you after some other guy like Carl Crawford gets a stupid deal for stupid money and driving up the price you have to pay…

      How much would Reyes have cost us if we had NOT had that extra year of control on him, Signed him before Crawford signed instead of waiting till Crawfrod got what he got and Reyes won a batting championship because he was ALREADY in his prime and could?

      The only way to SAVE money in the MLB is to sign the contract BEFORE they have the chance to do More than they normally do and before someone else signs for stupid amounts for doing the same thing your guy just did.
• Old School Mets Fan March 21, 2013 at 1:51 pm

  If only the Mets had available to them a 20 game winner who was looking for $9 million a year for three years.
  • Squidoo March 21, 2013 at 1:56 pm

    LOL, Me too.
  • Joey D. March 21, 2013 at 2:29 pm

    Hi Old School,

    Very good point indeed – I think Sandy also expressed worry about R.A.’s arm wearing out sooner than other knuckleball pitchers because he threw a “hard” knuckler.
  • vigouge March 21, 2013 at 7:01 pm

    If only we could have used him to acquire multiple top prospects, DAMN YOU ALDERSON!!!
    • Old School Mets Fan March 21, 2013 at 8:37 pm

      Yes, it’s not every day you ge, a potential #6 hitter in the lineup and a high A pitcher. wasn’t crazy about the trade at the time in large part because people were overestimating the strenght of the rotation.
• Alex in CT March 21, 2013 at 2:10 pm

  I’m disappointed that we couldn’t do better than Marcum to replace R.A. Dickey. There didn’t seem to be much focus on the rotation knowing full well that they were intending to trade Dickey all along. They never gave thought to an adequate backup plan. They didn’t have one.
  • TRS86 March 21, 2013 at 2:17 pm

    I think most believed that Wheeler was the backup plan and they just needed someone to hold his spot. Add Mejia and Familia into that as well.
    • taskmaster4450 March 21, 2013 at 6:22 pm

      I think Mejia is a guy they were counting on. No way to foresee the Visa issue and his ST starting about 10 days late.
      • srt March 21, 2013 at 10:13 pm

        Not to mention that forearm soreness or stiffness he’s experiencing right now.
• Joey D. March 21, 2013 at 2:32 pm

  Hi Guys,

  Regarding Marcum, does anyone have any information about Marcum arriving out of shape in this manner in prior spring training camps and indeed used a long-tossing program instead of the normal routine pitchers use in spring training – and if both being out of shape and the long tossing program are related to each other?
  • Metsie March 21, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    Not that I know of Joey….
    I think it is just a product of the Injury either he rested a little more than he shoud have or he culd not do as much as he would need to be ready for the season because the arm was getting sore too quickly….
    • Joey D. March 21, 2013 at 2:48 pm

      Hi Metsie,

      Thanks for that perspective. With all that is going on with the Mets it would be tempting to simply bad mouth another without vetting further into his background or reasoning for showing up like he did.
  • van March 21, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    according to quotes from him earlier, this is supposedly a normal spring from him? Not that I have seen anything formal from someone that followed him in the past to verify it.

    but, up until this impingement issue, he was progressing normally (# IPs, # of pitches) each start, so it seems to be a reasonable assumption. This issue had nothing to do with not coming to camp in shape.
• Joey D. March 21, 2013 at 2:45 pm

  d’Arnaud is defintely being held back for the extra contract year and this has become a common practice. It was done last year with Trout and Harper and while Washington did not get burned by this, I think with Trout in the lineup from the get go the Angels might not have started off at 6-13 for of those 13 losses, five came from one run and two others by two.

  I agree not to rush Wheeler – Zack still has control problems he needs to work on. Go with fill-ins rather than have him face major league batters who will not be fooled by the ptiches he throws with regularity outside the strikezone before he is ready. And, if after a few months he hasn’t shown improvement in that area, then he is going to have to be accepted for that weakness.
• van March 21, 2013 at 2:51 pm

  both guys are being held back for $ reasons. Just a standard part of MLB these days. For one thing, waiting the 20 days to lock in an extra year of control is huge. And for any team, the $ are big. Someone on another site recently did an analysis, and for a high end player (as these guys hopefully end up being), avoiding super 2 status is worth approx. 12mill over the length of the arb years.

  and I don’t think anyone cares about the Wilpons bank account. That is not what focus on the payroll is about. Rather, it is the realization that the team has a budget, and likely will continue to have a budget, and if they effectively waste $ in one spot, it won’t be there to spend on better pieces when you need it.

  so it is all about putting a better team on the field, nothing to do with saving money for Fred.
  • Joey D. March 21, 2013 at 3:14 pm

    Hi Van,

    What if the Mets were 1) in a better financial situation and 2) serious contenders this season but in need of a good hitting backstop (let us say Buck was not around). and considering Wright might not be ready for opening day. What do you think they would then do – have d’Arnaud- who is hitting .345 in spring training – start the season or think more in terms of that $12 million savings?

    As mentioned, it might have cost the Angels a shot at the post-season because they held back Trout and lost seven games by two or less runs.
    • van March 21, 2013 at 4:51 pm

      in that scenario it is a tough call. But assuming the Angels did it, you can see it is not an easy one.

      but yeah, if they were breaking camp with 1 gaping hole at C, and otherwise a serious PS contender, and had lots of money to burn, then I might take the risk.

      as always, there is a general “rule of thumb” and case by case exceptions. And certainly for the mets, D’arno right now is not one of them!
      • Joey D. March 21, 2013 at 10:27 pm

        Hi Van,

        Actually there was a point I overlooked with Trout – he hit just .220 with his 40 game stint with the Angels in 2011 so it is possible there as no indication at that time that their top prospect was was going to handle major league pitching in any manner approaching the four seasons of tremendous minor league stats (did he play in Nevada?) So in the Angels’ defense, it might not had appeared vital to have him break training camp and head west with the team – though I do not know how he appeared during spring training.

        It’s probably more Puljos’ lethargic performance early in the season – batting just .224 with 4 ribbys in those first 19 games alone – that was the cause of that miserable start more than the missing bat of Trout. The thought about Trout only comes through hindsight but does serve as a lesson for the future. If a kid seems ready – have him stay on the 25 man roster if the team feels it is headed somewhere.
• van March 21, 2013 at 2:52 pm

  oh, and wheeler would not be ready anyway. With the time he missed, for the same reasons Santana can’t be ready, Wheeler would not have enough time either.
• Popster March 21, 2013 at 3:19 pm

  I understand what you are saying Van but I think everyone is missing the point, jumping on the Super 2 status bandwagon, when it only rarely comes into play. It could be, as you imply, that the Angels lost the Title by holding Trout back and I believe they alienated him by being cheap about $50K this year. If a teams signs a fine player earlier than they have to, while he is still in control, the Super 2 concept is moot. If d’Arnaud is great, lock him up early as they did with Niese and as what was done with Chris Sale and perhaps Posey.

  This is about putting the best team on the field right now, and long term. Holding them back doesn’t help in my view, rather, it frustrates players and can alienate them
  • Metsie March 21, 2013 at 3:46 pm

    Some good points there Popster….

    I think this is better looked at from the NOW or LATER perspective…
    The same thing that made us TRADE for a guy like d’Arnaud and Wheeler in the first place (Wheeler less so granted)

    We traded away a Cy Young Pitcher thinking his contribution would be wasted in the NOW (next three years) so it would be better to get something for him that could change that LATER

    The decision on a players clock REALLY should be more about what SITUATION you think the team is in NOW compared to LATER…..

    If lets say d’Arnaud was going to make this team a competitive one as it is now then NOT bringing him up and keeping his clock stopped is pretty much trading a Competitive YEAR this year for an Extra year of cheap in which he might might be just as wasted as Dickey would be now.

    SO the decision should really be about looking at where you are now and looking ahead to see if wasting what could be a good year NOW is worth in the name of something later that is much harder to determine is going to be better!

    If this team was playoff bound this year but needed a catcher then it would really make NO SENSE to trade what could be a great season this year for an extra year later when the tem may NOT be capable of winning even WITH that player.

    Business is Business and Money is Money but anyone who makes the decision to NOT take advantage of your opportunities when they are avaiable in favor or some MAYBE opportunity later on will soon go out of business….

    It’s good to PLAN for the future but decisions made now MUST weigh the NOW and the LATER based on the situations at the time of the decision, Not just go for the future and give up on what could be a pretty good now.

    Other people seem to think that once Wheeler and d’Arnaud get here this team is destined to win something….
    Well if they can do that NEXT year then they can probably do it now!
    (maybe they need a little help)

    An if they leave them down over future money they could be sacrificing the GOOD season (Gift Horse) in favor of a year they can’t POSSIBLY know is going to be as good unless the NOW is just so bad there is no point in even trying…

    I think thats why they are not coming up and while I can’t say this season is the one that could be won if they were here, Many others feel they WILL make 2014 good once the clock does start.

    And if 2014 is when that can happen then itcan happen in 2013 as well…Especially if they solve thier little OF issues or find guys stepping up to show there was no problem at all…

    I wonder what people would think of the decision to not bring them up to save money and how that would go over if we missed the playoffs by 1 or 2 games all because our Catcher didn’t produce and we lost a few games starting Hefner instead of Wheeler…

    I bet all that money they are saving in a few years would not seem so worth saving anymore!
    And we will have blown a bird in the hand for something in a bush we won’t get to for years!
  • van March 21, 2013 at 4:54 pm

    super 2 though (or losing a year of control) is not moot, even if you look to lock up the guy early. because agents are real good at math, and they know when down the line the paychecks are scheduled to start going up. the sooner that is, the more it costs to lock the guy up.
• Joey D. March 21, 2013 at 4:06 pm

  Hi Metro

  http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-3974752.html

  But while Red Sox manager Terry Francona says James is an integral part of the Red Sox, you can’t always play strictly by the numbers. “This game’s played by people. And, you know, I mean, certainly knowing the numbers, and I care about ‘em, and it’s important. But people play the game, and I never try to lose sight of that,” Francona says.

  “Of course in any given day any professional baseball player can defy all the numbers in his record,” Safer remarks.

  “Yep,” Francona agrees. “And the only reason they’re ever gonna be any good is if they believe in that. I would never wanna say, ‘Hey, you’re 0-for-20 against this guy. You can’t play.’ We don’t share that with the players a lot. We want ‘em to feel indestructible.”

  “He’s made some what sound like pretty dogmatic statements like, ‘There’s no such thing as a clutch hitter,’” Safer points out.

  “I’ve heard him say that. But then I would want him to be introduced to David Ortiz…You get my point? We feel pretty good when David Ortiz is hittin’ in the clutch,” Francona says.

  And this is the one from LaRussa:

  http://www.baseballnation.com/2011/10/27/2519273/2011-world-series-tony-la-russa-offended-by-moneyball

  “On-base percentage is one of the most dangerous concepts of the last seven, eight years,’’ he said, “because it forces some executives and coaches and players to think that it’s all about getting on base by drawing walks. And the fact is that the guys that have the best on-base percentage are really dangerous hitters whenever they get a pitch in the strike zone.

  “So if the pitcher knows that and the catcher knows that, they work the edges, and pretty soon it’s 2-and-1, 2-and-1 rather than 0-and-1 all the time.

  “You watch your productive hitters in the big leagues, and they get a chance to drive in a run, they look for the first good strike, and the better the pitching, especially this time of the year, you get that first strike, that may be the last one that you get to see. So you’d better be ready to swing early. It’s not sitting up there and taking strike one, strike two so that you can work the count.’’

  Metro, also notice in that 60 minutes interview how analysis is credited of disproving the myth that Fenway park is favorable to right handed hitters?

  “Example: Fenway Park and its infamous left field wall, the “Green Monster.” Fenway was legendary as a right-handed hitters’ park. But analysis showed it actually favored left-handed hitters, and the Sox line-up has been lefty-heavy ever since.”

  As a kid in the sixties I knew that and so unless I was so ahead of the times in my perception of the game , I think those who played the game knew much better than what I had understood about the Green Monster. Yes, the wall produces more hits on balls that outfielders could run down under normal dimensions, however, that Green Monster also works against the right handed hitter as well.

  - How many hits were lost because of the short distance? Left fielders do not play the normal depth because balls hit over their head are going to hit the wall anyway so they position themselves much further into the diamond and able to catch up with both Texas leaguers that would otherwise fall in or the sinking line drive that would otherwise fall in front of them. This robs more right handed hitters of hits than the Green Monster gives them if a pitcher happens to be on his game.

  - How many home runs did the Green Monster stop from going over the fence like in other parks, with home runs then becoming singles if hit more like a line drive or a double if hit more off the wall? This, of course, was more prevalient with right handed hitters than those swinging lefty. How many Bucky Dent home runs are created as opposed to those that are taken away?

  - By playing closer to the plate, how many runners on second have to be held at third because of the short distance the outfielder has to throw? How often did guys hold up going from first to third stay at second for the same reason? This is a disadvantage as far as producing runs hits to left by a right handed hitter, or actually anyone hitting to the left side.

  - How often have we seen right handed batters screw up trying to take advantage of the wall?

  - And, most important, how vast is the space in center and right field which creates more room to cover against left-handed hitters and thus more opportunities for balls to fall in?

  That’s an example of why I profess that statistics often prove to the fan what the players already knew beforehand.
  • van March 21, 2013 at 4:57 pm

    “You watch your productive hitters in the big leagues, and they get a chance to drive in a run, they look for the first good strike, and the better the pitching, especially this time of the year, you get that first strike, that may be the last one that you get to see. So you’d better be ready to swing early. It’s not sitting up there and taking strike one, strike two so that you can work the count.’’

    pretty much Hudgens approach in a nutshell.
    • Metsie March 21, 2013 at 5:03 pm

      And what des jumping on the first good strike have to do with Paitence?
      Patience is only in play if the first pitch is NOT a good strike and in most cases you will find they are the BEST strike….

      The issue isn’t what you guys SAY is Hudgens approach it’s how you describe it (and maybe how HE describes it)
      The words of the lesson should be clearer that the “YOUR PITCH” and “PATIENCE” are…
• Alex March 21, 2013 at 4:22 pm

  David Wright named team captain !
  • taskmaster4450 March 21, 2013 at 6:24 pm

    Surprising isnt it? I really thought they were going to give it to Murphy. He might have come in 2nd.
• srt March 21, 2013 at 10:15 pm

  ‘It’s only March and it is already seems a long season for the Mets.’

  LOL…..Step back from that ledge, John. Isn’t it common knowledge that ST stats don’t count?
  • van March 21, 2013 at 10:54 pm

    the problem is, the thing that does count is getting through ST healthy and ready to start the season.