Hefner Solid Against Braves, Murphy Making Progress, Duda Hitting With Authority Again

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• srt March 15, 2013 at 9:34 pm

  ‘ Jenrry Mejia, coming back from Tommy John surgery, is bothered with forearm tendinitis.’

  Wait, what? Is this the first time this has been mentioned?

  Good to see Duda starting to come around at the plate some.
  I think he’s a lock to start in LF regardless. They’ll start him there but he might be on a short leash.
  • Joe D March 15, 2013 at 9:46 pm

    Good evening srt. I literally just left John a message on his voice mail to followup on that in the morning because these are two separate things and news to me.

    There’s so many followups we’d love to do with other Spanish speaking players like Jordany to name another that John tells me is a real grind because they don’t have translators. I don’t understand why the Mets don’t employ more translators that are available in the clubhouse after a game. Whenever the Mets have had a Japanese or Korean player, there was always a translator by their side after a game. Not the case with Latino players and it’s a shame because I think it’s why so few of them are misunderstood and not given the benefit of the doubt.

    They are made to look like seperatists sometimes because they go out to eat together after a game and spend most of their time together which makes some of the ignorant beat writers think there is a divide when clearly there isn’t one. They are as social as everyone else and hang together with those they could share a laugh with and talk about the game.

    The Yankees have a few translators and obviously understand the demographics of the city they play for.
    • Joey D. March 15, 2013 at 9:58 pm

      Hi Joe,

      Excellent points about human nature, the need for familiarity and being able to speak only so much of the native tongue in a foreign country that we all face. Would not be surprised if the U.S. players in Japan have similar problems, even though they do have translators.

      I don’t think it’s a problem so much with teammates as is with the media.
    • srt March 15, 2013 at 10:20 pm

      Hey thanks, Joe. That comment was made like it was common knowledge about Mejia so I thought I missed something.

      Good point about the translators. I wonder how the beat writers like Rubin get around that (assuming they only speak English themselves)?

      Wonder if it comes down to money with the Mets. Just about everything else lately with them seems to……
      • Roxio March 15, 2013 at 11:03 pm

        They get around it by posting innuendo and misinterpretations that serve to put the player in a less than a positive light than his English speaking counterparts. They make it look like the players seem callous and don’t care when it’s not the case at all. You have a couple of writers even on this great site that act the same way and they spread this to the Mets masses who have n o reason to believe it’s not true. And while I never gave it much thought before, Joe D. may have pointed out the problem with the lack of translators for these players who love the game as much as the Americans do. In some of their countries baseball is their life. We just saw a glimpse of how “gritty” and “fiery” Latino players are tonight against Team USA. Did ex-Met players like Beltran and Pagan look lazy, unenthusiastic and “not fiery” to you tonight? I hope you understand my point.
        • srt March 16, 2013 at 11:22 am

          I understand your point.
          And for the record, I never bought into the whole ‘Beltran is too soft/lazy’ argument anymore than ‘Reyes is a showboater who doesn’t care about the team, only himself’. Just dumb.
    • Just-Da-Damaja March 15, 2013 at 10:27 pm

      Not the case with Latino players and it’s a shame because I think it’s why so few of them are misunderstood and not given the benefit of the doubt.

      They are made to look like seperatists sometimes because they go out to eat together after a game and spend most of their time together which makes some of the ignorant beat writers think there is a divide when clearly there isn’t one. They are as social as everyone else and hang together with those they could share a laugh with and talk about the game.

      The Yankees have a few translators and obviously understand the demographics of the city they play for.

      ==========

      Best Comment on this issue i have ever seen
    • Roxio March 15, 2013 at 10:52 pm

      Was totally impressed with your comment. You hit the nail squarely on the head. I have a deep resentment for most of the Mets beat writers because of the way they go out of their way to always make the Latino players seem unenthusiastic and like their heads are not into the game, which is an out and out lie. I commend you for telling it like it is and wish you had a bigger soapbox so that people like Rubin, Lennon and Martino can read this and realize how much damage they do with every ignorant word they write when it comes to this matter. +1
      • Just-Da-Damaja March 15, 2013 at 11:52 pm

        The problem is that Joe D’s approach is not sensationalist…does not create easy to cast villians and heroes.

        The sports media world profits from stories, not fact based articles.

        If u want to see the difference, look at a latin american sports section. it reads like the associated press stuff we get. very short. just the facts from the game. thats it.

        American/British media for decades has created a mini-series out of thin air every season when it comes to sports.

        and every mini-series HAS to have a villian.

        and the villains usually look the same. are 1-dimensional.

        and sorry to say…but its easier to sell to an american white audience, the same formula that works in the movies.

        the white guy without physical talent ( even the guy is a physical beast like wright ) , but works hard and is humble ( even if he lives the life of a playboy ) and not flashy and doesnt “show off”
        ( but if he does show emotion , he is fiery )

        thats the hero of the series….all the time …

        the villian is usually dark…moody….doesnt talk much….u dont know if he has a family, wife, kids, mother, all that love him….

        thats the villain of the series…all the time…

        and he usually is a guy like luis castillo…

        luis for 10 years had a great rep in the league.

        he comes to NY and immediately, turns into Kim Jong, the dominican version

        same thing with beltran.

        beltran played in KC…no problem….Houston, no problem

        comes to NY….and we got problems houston…

        leaves to SF…no problem…

        goes to ST L ….no problem….

        see a trend here ?
    • Metsie March 16, 2013 at 11:44 am

      If you ask me…Instead of translators (which is fine as a stopgap in the meantime solution) why don’t they teach these kids English at those Latin American baseball camps they find them at?
      Seems like that would be the better investment because even if the kid never makes it to the MLB or in baseball as a whole at least that kid would have a leg up on his life being able to speak english which can be advantageous in getting a job somewhere else.

      I applaud MLB for setting up these camps and giving opportunity to these kids in Latin America….
      But you know if your going to invest and say your helping a country then get the MOST out of that money and don’t just develop them so they are useful to you but useful to themselves regardless of if they make your cut or not.
      • srt March 16, 2013 at 12:04 pm

        ‘If you ask me…Instead of translators (which is fine as a stopgap in the meantime solution) why don’t they teach these kids English at those Latin American baseball camps they find them at?’

        Great point – one I’ve often thought of. Actually, I’m not sure they don’t have a program like this now.

        I think it goes beyond the language barrier though. It’s different cultures as well. These kids come over here sometimes not knowing the language as well as being at a distinct disadvantage b/c of the culture differences – often at an age when ‘finding your identity as an adult’ is hard enough within your own culture.

        Saw an special years ago that dealt with a kid signed into the Yankees organization from a Latin American country. He comes over here speaking hardly any English and feeling completely isolated. Went to breakfast for a year with a teammate who could speak English and ordered the same breakfast of eggs that his teammate did – b/c he couldn’t speak or read the language. He hated eggs but it was a year before he knew enough of the language to order something he did like. To make a long story short, he had a difficult time acclimating to this country and eventually just walked away from camp. Not b/c he didn’t have talent which he did – but b/c the frustration of it all was just too overwhelming.
        • Metsie March 16, 2013 at 12:36 pm

          I would bet some DO have it as part of thier program….Maybe we do too, But if they do it sure isn’t working too well then….

          As for their being a cultural divide….I tend to disagree….
          It’s not cultural in the sense of they come from one place and we are all that different.

          It’s more for a CLASS divide…
          Your taking kids who come from places where two nickels to rub together might even put you into the middle class, and then we remove them from there, give them half a million dollars or more and put them in a class of Millionaires! and Expect them to act as if they have been millionaries or have any frame of reference as to what is expected of you once you get there.

          Think of the Movie trading places…..
          The comedic conflict was a poor guy trying to interact with Rich folks!
          And Rich folks trying to get by as a poor person…

          While there are some cultural differences involved in the language the real problem (and I suggested this may even be the case with Valdespin) is you take them from a place where certain expressions and behaviors are fine because they are done without a spotlight but then you throw them into that spotlight and those behaviors seem strange, Unprofessional, even downright crude!

          Take a kid who hit the winning run at the playground and ask him about it you get a very STREET like answer…
          Put him in front of a National TV Camera and what he said that was fine in the playground is all of a sudden unprofessional and immature.

          But getting back to my original point this country has really dropped the ball on our neighbors to the south….
          Instead of spending all that money on Drug Interdiction we would be much better off spending it on thier development and helping thier people be able to make money so they don’t have to run a cocca farm and still earn enough money….
          If we do that then maybe we would find some new customers to buy OUR products and get ourselves out of debt…

          Teaching English and Business schools would go a long way and whatever you spent you would make back 100 fold!
• Joe D March 15, 2013 at 9:37 pm

  John. if the Mets don’t get a minimum of .280, 25, 80 season from Duda they’re in trouble. He’s their best hope for a league average corner outfielder this season. I love all the feel-good Cowgill stories but he’s no everyday outfielder. Anyone who thought Pagan was not an everyday outfielder and now says the opposite about Cowgill isn’t paying attention or is just suffering from a case of wishful thinking.
• Joe D March 15, 2013 at 9:53 pm

  Bayonne I used to think like you about this. But in the last two years I have shifted my stance. The fact that a patient approach does lead to a hitter getting better pitches to hit is no longer just a myth, it’s a fact. Letting the opposing pitcher know you will not swing at pitches out of the strike zone forces them to throw more pitches into the strike zone. That increases the odds of the batter making more contact. The science proves this, but the eye test proves this as well. I know you have this brickwall when it comes to change and advanced metrics, but I’ve learned more from the game by reading Xtreem’s posts and also ted Berg, and it has opened my eyes even though I always felt I knew it all and there was nothing new to learn.
  • srt March 15, 2013 at 10:23 pm

    ‘Letting the opposing pitcher know you will not swing at pitches out of the strike zone forces them to throw more pitches into the strike zone. That increases the odds of the batter making more contact.’

    Agree.
    • srt March 15, 2013 at 10:39 pm

      No good can come from me conversing with you.

      Moving on.
    • Hotstreak March 15, 2013 at 11:51 pm

      There is a flip side against PPPA metric. Quick strike one and strike two, and then guys like Ike and Duda are behind in the count and a distinct advantage goes to the pitcher. The only player taking pitches should be the number two hitter if lets say Jose Reyes is on 1B and ready to steal a base.
      • XtreemIcon March 15, 2013 at 11:55 pm

        If a hitter goes up there and purposely watches hittable strikes go by, there’s a much bigger issue at hand.
        • Metsie March 16, 2013 at 12:51 pm

          And if a hitter doesn’t et 1st and 2nd Pitches go by you can HARDLY call what he did as being PATIENT now can you?

          When that happens and he swings he isn’t PATIENT but AGGRESSIVE!

          POOF goes the notion that Patience is needed….

          Want to say swing at strikes not at balls thats fine but that has nothing to do with Patience at all.
        • Mr North Jersey March 16, 2013 at 12:59 pm

          It is something when I read how complicated some fans make such a simple premise that Hudgens has. Look for your pitch and not the pitcher’s pitch, show restraint and don’t chase balls outside the strike zone. What!?!
          • Metsie March 16, 2013 at 1:07 pm

            RESTRAINT does not equal PATIENCE!

            This is the key issue you guys seem to want to ignore….

            If YOUR PITCH comes on the first two pitches thrown then being PATIENT is the LAST thing you want a batter to be!

            You want him to be ALERT, AGRESSIVE! Not WAITING trying to get deep into counts!
            • Metsie March 16, 2013 at 1:36 pm

              re·straint
              Synonyms – circumscription, restriction, imprisonment, incarceration.

              1. the ability to control or moderate one’s impulses, passions, etc: to show restraint
              2. the act of restraining or the state of being restrained
              3. something that restrains; restriction

              Pa·tience
              Synonyms -. composure, stability, self-possession; submissiveness, sufferance. Patience endurance fortitude stoicism imply qualities of calmness, stability, and persistent courage in trying circumstances. Patience may denote calm, self-possessed, and unrepining bearing of pain, misfortune, annoyance, or delay; or painstaking and untiring industry or (less often) application in the doing of somehing:

              1. tolerant and even-tempered perseverance
              2. the capacity for calmly enduring pain (as in taking strikes!), trying situations, etc
              3. chiefly ( Brit ) US equivalent: solitaire any of various card games for one player only, in which the cards may be laid out in various combinations as the player tries to use up the whole pack
              4. obsolete permission; sufferance (as in taking some bad to get a greater good)

              They problem isn’t what they think the philosophy is…the issue is they think it is about PATIENCE which it is not it is much more about RESTRAINT!

              They should RESTRAIN from swinging at BALLS….Not be PATIENT because that strike could come on the very first pitch and PATIENCE might make you do something the Philosphy doesn’t want you to do!

              If I tell you to be PATIENT and wait on the corner for a good cab, you might let 3 good cabs come and go…
              But If I tell you to RESTRAIN yourself from getting into a BAD cab you will will not pass up any good ones just avoid the bad ones!

              This is the problem with all this talk about being PATIENT!
              It’s the wrong label and if that word is used to convey what it is they suggest it does the WRONG MESSAGE will be recieved!
            • Metsie March 16, 2013 at 3:05 pm

              Don’t conceal what you feel, let it shine:
              That you’d like to be number nine.

              Tick Tock Tick Tock
  • Cackletta March 15, 2013 at 10:36 pm

    See, this is the problem. You’re turning this into an opinion. As Joe said, it’s not debatable. it’s just the facts.
    • Cackletta March 15, 2013 at 11:18 pm

      Your insults are incredible bro. I truly admire your wit.
  • XtreemIcon March 15, 2013 at 10:59 pm

    Since you seem to have all the answers, can you please enlighten the readers on what my baseball background is and why I’m less an authority on it than you are? And if that’s the case, why do you always back down in a baseball discussion with me?
    • XtreemIcon March 15, 2013 at 11:11 pm

      You always back down in a baseball conversation. It’s not a lie, it’s true and right there for everyone to see it. All the time. A baseball discussion starts to happen, and you run and hide and revert right to insults and changing the topic. Just because you reply to the comment doesn’t mean it’s not a cowardly way out. Just like right now. Tell everyone what my baseball background is and why you’re more of an authority than I am. And stick to the topic and try not to make yourself look even more foolish.
    • Kramer67 March 15, 2013 at 11:13 pm

      Drop dead? On a baseball site? Does this qualify as an insult? Or is this just “real” baseball, Bayonne style?
    • XtreemIcon March 16, 2013 at 12:29 am

      Well, that’s to be expected. If you ever want to man up and try to keep up with me in baseball conversation, just say the word. In the meantime, the way you conduct yourself says more about you than your fake level of baseball authority does.
    • Joe D March 16, 2013 at 11:13 am

      You better watch your step. If you are incapable of debating without resorting to insults when challenged then don’t debate in the first place. If you are incapable of providing your own analysis to dispute another’s analysis, then maybe you shouldn’t be debating on an analytic level with anyone. Just stick to conversing with those who agree with you that it’s all in the eye’s and that technology and advances are a waste of time. But don’t infringe upon those who do believe that baseball has made significant advancement and big strides in analyzing a players production and its relationship to that player’s approach.
      • XtreemIcon March 16, 2013 at 3:39 pm

        You call that analysis? That’s not analysis, that’s argument and those are two very different things. Everyone’s always wrong and everyone is stupid and you’re always right, but about what? You never offer your own analysis. You just failingly attempt to poke holes in other people’s analysis. That’s just argument. You exhibit zero baseball acccumen.
        • Metsie March 16, 2013 at 4:19 pm

          You call that within the guidelines for posting?

          Your a frikken Writer for this site and if you can’t set a good example how can anyone else who doesn’t have that distinction?
          • XtreemIcon March 16, 2013 at 6:35 pm

            I am nobody’s father here, depite the fact that a small number of you insist on acting like children. I’ll gladly apologize if you can point out my usage of profanity and personal insults.
    • OmarsLegacy March 16, 2013 at 11:33 am

      I see you post very little by way of baseball knowledge. You’re more an argumentative type. Plenty on blog sites are argumentative who are more equipped to debate worthless stats than talk baseball strategy like the mind game between pitcher and batter that goes on hundreds of times a game.
    • Joe D March 16, 2013 at 12:50 pm

      You want to call that analysis? Really? Fine, I’ll give you that. But the next time you tell anyone on this site to drop dead or go to hell, it will be the last time you will be able to share any future analysis on this site. If you can’t be civil, then go find another jungle to go ape-shit on, don’t do it here.
  • Kramer67 March 15, 2013 at 11:11 pm

    LOL you are becoming a lost cause. Do you still drive a Ford Edsel to the sandlots?
  • Hotstreak March 15, 2013 at 11:44 pm

    I thought Duda’s problem in the past was he wasn’t aggressive enough at the plate. Maybe Duda’s injury moving furniture was the cause of his slow ST start. What happened to the general condemnation of PPPA metric?

    http://metsblog.com/news/about-last-night-the-mets-are-working-counts-being-patient/
  • Metsie March 16, 2013 at 12:46 pm

    AHHH but here is the rub…..

    What fact denotes that a hitter is being patient?
    PPPA? Hardly…
    Perhaps the guy who SEEM to be more patient are not patient at all and are merely good at protecting the plate and seeing more pitches!

    Sure you could say that a guy who swings at strikes but does not swing at balls probably hits better and you could probably prove that….
    But that doesn’t mean he was patient at all…If those strikes he went after were in the first three pitches of the PA then you can hardly say he was Patient or should have been…

    The data being used says nothing about and does not even prove the EXISTENCE or RELEVANCE of PATIENCE….

    Patience would be proved by showing most of the hits occurr later in the count!
    And then only if the strikes did not exist until later in the count…

    But if those strikes come on the first three pitches Patience is not ain play at all!
    In fact it is UNWISE to be patient when that happens and AGGRESSION is what is called for.
• Mr North Jersey March 15, 2013 at 11:02 pm

  Striking out the last 6 batters he faced even though it’s Spring Training for me I found it impressive. Also it’s good to see Duda show the power many believe he has. Now with 16 days remaining till Opening Day it will be interesting to see who makes the final cut.

  Finally sorry to see TeamUSA eliminated but I am happy to see Puerto Rico make it past this round. Big wins for them having beaten Venezuela and now USA during this WBC. They have gotten further than I expected when the tournament began. Hopefully it ends with P.R. vs D.R. to decide the winner.
• Original Met Fan March 15, 2013 at 11:40 pm

  Hefner keeps rolling along. We’ll never replace what Dickey did on his own, but if the other pitchers each step up a little, we’re going to be fine as far as staring pitching goes..
• Joey D. March 16, 2013 at 2:12 am

  Hi Bayonne,

  You have mentioned before your deep involvement in the game but it’s worth noting that what you basically say has been echoed by the many major leaguers and batting coaches that I have referred to (with attachments) on my own. I’m not a player but I can comprehend the points you and others who have played the game are trying to make. In fact, I appreciate them very much for so often you bring out so many interesting aspects of the game that often goes un-noticed by us fans.

  But that brings up the point raised by many of us. Those who play the game don’t think in terms of an excel spreadsheet (that’s a good one, BTW). And it’s a whole lot different being on the field than it appears to be in an office. It’s like the players always say how the game looks so different and so simple when watching it from the stands.

  That the same way it is when looking at stats. It is a whole different game than what stats can tell one. It’s a point that seems to be lost on many. Even Bill James cautions fans about the over-emphasis on stats. Many forget that James is also a great baseball historian who has written many books and articles with very little reference to stats.

  And that is why I think Hudgens is obeying an edict handed down by well meaning but ill-informed general manager – if he didn’t, he would probably be out of a job as would Terry Collins (who might be anyway).
  • vigouge March 16, 2013 at 3:55 am

    Well I have to say you certainly do a good job slaying that straw man you set up about thinking in terms excel. Since you’ve played I’m sure you know better than every single MLB team who employs statisticians, I mean those Cardinals? dumbasses. Giants? Think about how many Championships they’d have if they didn’t waste their time with fancy things like math. Red Sox, A’s, Rangers, Ray’s, Braves and every other baseball team (not to mention basketball, football, hockey, curling, ice dancing, synchronized swimming, those guys that toss frisbees off a dock for their dog to jump after) idiots.

    If only we could go back in time and warn all those managers who looked at numbers and determined that it might be good if they start the left handed hitter against the right handed pitcher and vice versa. At the very least we could counsel them about the dangers of dividing hits by at-bats because after all the game isn’t played on a calculator. I just worry that those people would just tell us that recording stats is just a way better understand what has happened so as to increase the future likelihood of success. Also we should probably kill hitler, or at the very least maim him. It’s kind of hard to nearly exterminate a race and bring death and destruction to the world with no arms.
  • Hotstreak March 16, 2013 at 6:00 am

    Hi Joey:

    As to the emphasis on saber metrics:
    I have a very simple phrase:
    BABIP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YES
    PPPA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:> NO ):
• Matt Balasis March 16, 2013 at 9:17 am

  Hef’s little string of K’s there towards the end of his outing was eye opening. The kid was really mixing his pitches.

  I don’t agree with some who say he’s a #5 / swingman type at best. He was hit or miss last year but when he was on he was pretty darned good. It’s interesting that the Mets keep churning out these back end guys Like Gee and Hefner, don’t underestimate the impact of an organization’s ability to fill in the blanks.
• Joey D. March 16, 2013 at 5:49 pm

  “The fact that a patient approach does lead to a hitter getting better pitches to hit is no longer just a myth, it’s a fact. Letting the opposing pitcher know you will not swing at pitches out of the strike zone forces them to throw more pitches into the strike zone. That increases the odds of the batter making more contact. The science proves this, but the eye test proves this as well”

  Does that mean that those who played the game decades ago thought a patient approach leading to better pitches to hit WAS a myth? If anything, it’s the opposite. Players from past generations knew very well that they had to be patient and disciplined at the plate. And why? Well, call it self-preservation or survival of the fittest.

  At that time they had no financial security and certainly no job security. And even those of all-star quality had to work winter jobs and knew they had to hustle every day for when they stopped, there was always somebody else who would. They also played through injury with the knowledge their job could be lost in the interim. They had no choice – it would mean going back to the factories, mines and other hard labor blue collar jobs on a full time basis at much lower pay.

  They were working stiffs – just like us.

  Anyone who remembers those days also knows that today there is a malaise that never existed back then. There were no guaranteed contracts, minimum $450K salaries, union protections and 30 teams. Unlike today, those with athletic ability most always focused on baseball because there were little others choices in professional sports. And the competition was tremendous. Baseball was king and unlike college, professional football and basketball were nowhere as lucrative so the minor leagues – in which there were way more teams than there are today -was crammed with players who were just as good as those in the majors but had little opportunity. In fact, the Pacific Coast League was considered by many as the “third major league”.

  So those who were in the majors had no choice but to learn plate discipline. The numbers we find in stats today doesn’t deal with the fact that today’s players don’t have the financial pressures of those back then and can be more independent.

  And how often do we hear players telling us how easy and less complicated the game appears when watching it from the stands instead of being between the lines? That is the same with stats when used by those who come from the corporate world instead of the baseball one. The game appears much easier to understand than in actuality. And when it becomes a case of those with the numbers telling those who have played and managed in the game how to do it, besides the malaise that we have today, we are also seeing an inferiorly played product – as in the case of Dave Hudgens instructing players to lay off pitches on the outside corners of the plate due to what the numbers show whereas Tony LaRussa says one has to be ready to go after any strike that appears to be hittable since one might not get another pitch like that to hit afterwards.
  • vigouge March 17, 2013 at 2:22 am

    You do realize you spent 500 words arguing against a statement that you clearly misread?

    “The fact that a patient approach does lead to a hitter getting better pitches to hit is no longer just a myth, it’s a fact.”

    The myth was that working a count and getting on base didn’t matter. What Joe D. is saying is that isn’t true, hence calling it a myth.

    It’s a nice basic truth table as well.

    x: A hitter is patient
    y: A hitter gets better pitches to hit

    x -> y

    If x is True and Y is true then X -> Y is also true.

    And yes sadly Logic Tables are one of the precious few things I remember from college math.
    • Metsie March 17, 2013 at 2:42 am

      And you do realize that Patience has NOTHING to do with getting deep into counts!

      Because the pitcher can throw a strike at any time and if he throws three to start you can’t get deep into the count no matter HOW patient you are!

      Only two ways to get deep into a count….

      Face a bad pitcher who throws a lot of balls…
      Be able to deal with strikes at least well enough to NOT make an out when they come early in the count and foul off strikes with 2K that you can’t hit so you can see more pitches

      Patience isn’t involved at all!

      It doesn’t even have a variable in your fancy equation!
• Joey D. March 16, 2013 at 8:40 pm

  Since there are those questioning the credentials of others as far as having a practical experience in the game, I have a suggestion.

  No matter what one’s take is, provide us with you background let it be in playing and/or coaching beyond sandlot to that of organized amateur, semi-pro or even minor league ball. This way we can at least get an idea of where those from differing points are coming from – experience wise.

  For myself, I do not deny I am only a fan. That is why when it comes to my position on discipline and pitch count while I have my own ideas, I instead vet into what is written by those who have played and/or instructed. I have not come across articles or discussions on plate discipline that talk about discipline in terms of first hunting for a pitch in a certain zone defined not on one’s individual talent but that of a team concept. From what I have found, the talk about discipline is not to swing at a strike early in the count which the batter does not think he could drive for a base hit.

  That is different than not swinging at a strike if it is not in a zone defined by the batting coach based on stats that show the team hits .200 when it comes to strikes on the corner. To a fan like myself, that appears as an over simplification of fact – does it take into account when in the count the batter swung? Is it a .200 average consistent throughout the count, meaning it doesn’t matter whether it was the first pitch, a 1-0 count or further back when one has to be more defensive guarding the entire plate and has to swing at pitches that are “too close to take” with two strikes no matter if it’s 0-2 or 3-2.

  Now, this opens up what I think this discussion is really all about. Both Sandy A. and Bobby O. at the end of the season agreed there was a big drop in hitting and run production in the second half. Mr. A said it was because the drop in OBP and PPPA indicated batters were taking less pitches which meant less plate discipline compared to the first half. Mr. O attributed that to pitchers getting that first quick strike on the batters for they knew the team was being less aggressive, a point he raised early in the season about the Mets telegraphing a message to the opposing pitchers which was going to catch up with the hitters.

  Sandy represents those who haven’t had a career in baseball and believe certain things can be learned by the analysis of advanced stats which goes against conventional theory. Bobby represents those who go by what they learned by playing the game with stats used for reference and not theory. If there wasn’t much of a philosophical difference between the two camps then there would be a more peaceful co-existence.

  So the original question – what practical experience do those with the opposite point of view regarding Dave Hudgens instruction have – I bet is going to show that those from one perspective are from the A group and those from the other are with the O Group.

  After that, it will be interesting to see whom the consensus leans toward – the lawyer and business executive or the former MLB pitcher who is now a pre- and post-game color analyst.

  So who
  • XtreemIcon March 16, 2013 at 9:01 pm

    Why would you perpetrate such a ridiculous sterotype as “Sandy represents those who haven’t had a career in baseball and believe certain things can be learned by the analysis of advanced stats which goes against conventional theory.”? So anyone who encourages the use use of advanced statistics doesn’t have any practical experience in baseball? David Cone disagrees with you, amongst many other major leaguers, aside from the countless people who played and/or coached but not on a professional level.
    • Joey D. March 16, 2013 at 10:33 pm

      Hi Xtreem,

      How can one perpetrate a stereotype when Sandy himself said:

      “When I got into the game, I didn’t have any real background in baseball, so I wasn’t burdened by any [laughs] traditional notions of how to evaluate players or construct teams. I was particularly open to people like Bill James and Eric Walker. Walker wrote a book called The Sinister First Baseman, a little paperback, which was actually quite instructive.”

      http://espn.go.com/blog/new-yorkmets/post/_/id/11400/sandy-alderson-in-depth

      How does that differ with “who haven’t had a career in baseball and believe certain things can be learned by the analysis of advanced stats which goes against conventional theory.”?

      And the purpose for then asking such a question? To see whether or not there is a trend as I suggested – that those who place emphasis on learning like Sandy don’t have practical baseball experience like those who lean heavily toward those like Tony LaRussa or Bobby Ojeda. That is why I started off volunteering myself so there would be no doubt about that I am claiming to be anything more than I am:

      “For myself, I do not deny I am only a fan. That is why when it comes to my position on discipline and pitch count while I have my own ideas, I instead vet into what is written by those who have played and/or instructed.”

      I truly believe of those who are taking one side or the other – not the neutrals – the ones with with the practical experience will come from the Bobby O side. If I’m wrong, fine. In fact, that will open up a brand new credibility for those who profess that advanced statistical analysis has opened up new revelations about the game for who would be better to know they found out something new than one who has played and/or coached?

      Oh, BTW, saying “David Cone disagrees with you, amongst many other major leaguers, aside from the countless people who played and/or coached but not on a professional level.” is taking his words out of context. He talks about stats as a source of more detailed information about a player’s tendencies – something all pitchers went over with their catchers prior to the game. The data he wanted to know was no different from what those from Christy Matthewson to Tom Seaver wanted to know as well and was then compiled from notebooks and pitching charts.

      “We didn’t have nearly as much data when I pitched. I think it would have helped me. I would have loved to have seen the hitters’ tendencies, as well as data on my own pitches. I’d have liked data on which hitters were more selective, and which hitters chased out of the zone more. And if they did, which pitches did they chase?

      “Earlier this year I looked up some data on Ben Zobrist. This was back when he was struggling, but was still getting his share of walks. His on-base percentage was still decent. I broke down the individual counts, like how many 2-0 and 3-1 counts he saw. He’d seen more than anybody else in the league at that point, but he also swung less than anybody else on those counts. Knowing that type of tendency would have been helpful to me when I pitched.”

      That’s talking about getting more information about a player’s tendencies than what could have been taken down in notes and conversation due to the limitations of human memory. That is not learning the game from stats.

      When he talks about advanced stats, he talks in terms of how non-players judge them, not those between the foul lines:

      “The year I did win [the Cy Young award], I think I deserved it based on the numbers. Overall, it was one of my best years, even though I may have had other years that would rate higher in terms of WAR. I know that Jimmy Key had a good year. It was a strike-shortened season, so it was kind of a quirky year.

      “Won-lost records, or even ERA, don’t tell the whole story, and I guess that’s the idea behind a lot of the metrics. There’s just so much more, but for a lot of years, that’s solely how we were judged. It was also how we were compensated. I’ve always thought there was a better way to judge — a better way to look at things — and I think a lot of pitchers have felt that way.”

      He also says data might help some but could hurt others:

      “Some players get overloaded with data. There’s a balance there, especially as a pitcher. If you become too oriented toward hitters’ weaknesses instead of your own strengths, you can get into a defensive mode and end up pitching defensively instead of aggressively. Data is good, but you need that balance.

      “When I think back to some of my old teammates, Ron Darling would have been really good with a lot of data. Bobby Ojeda is another. Jack McDowell would likely have been interested in having it. Other guys wouldn’t have. An example might be Sid Fernandez, who had some remarkable numbers. He was one of the toughest pitchers to hit in the game.

      “Sid didn’t throw with great velocity, but he had great movement. He had a four-seam fastball that had a lot of life up in the strike zone. He got a lot of swings and misses with it, and he also had a big, slow curveball that he threw in the upper 60s. He had a really wide differential between his fastball velocity and his curveball velocity. He was a guy who didn’t want to shake off pitches. He wanted Gary Carter to call the game and he would focus entirely on execution. He was like a skeet shooter or a sniper, just focusing on the target and not wanting to be clouded with anything else. Trying to disseminate a lot of information would probably have just dragged him down.”

      Again, he talks about it as a source of more data – not a new learning tool – and how it helps others judge ball players by confirming what the player already knows about himself and others. So, it is good to look in terms of the context in which Cohn speaks about stats to understand the degree in which he goes by them.

      http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/qa-david-cone-stat-head-all-star/
      • XtreemIcon March 16, 2013 at 10:59 pm

        You are perpetuating a sterotype when you lump people in groups based on your misguided, misunderstanding of events. It’s what you constantly do. All the time. “Sandy represents those who haven’t had a career in baseball and believe certain things can be learned by the analysis of advanced stats which goes against conventional theory.”?

        What kind of ridiculous fallacy is that? Sandy does not represent that. Sandy has his background, everyone else has their own. Sandy represents only himself, regardless of who or how many people might agree with him on certain things.

        That’s like someone saying that Omar represents those with no understanding of the business of baseball and can’t function as a GM with anything less than a top budget. How asinine is that?