1
2013
Featured Post: Is It Time To Start Buying Into Sandy Alderson’s Plan?
An article by 
At the start of the show…
Yes. That title is for real. We have been so busy ridiculing the man for his cost-cutting style of management, that we are not taking the time to take a step back and see the big picture.
You could sit and watch the thirty minute episodes of Bob Ross’ show, which featured him painting, and witness him scratching and poking away at that canvass, switching from brush to brush and color to color, and wonder what the heck he was doing. It looked about as far from anything considered art at that point as you can imagine. I would often wonder if he actually had his paintings planned out, or if he would just get up there in front of his canvass and get his paint on.
The viewing audience finds themselves sitting there, trying to figure out what in the world Ross is painting, because all you see are some lines, some blotches of paint here or there, and are simultaneously being hypnotized by the soothing sound of Ross’ voice. Then, all of a sudden, everything starts coming together.
A couple of those lines become a barn in a field. Those blotches, they become clouds in the sky and a snow capped mountain. Then there is the “happy tree” that always seems to tie the Ross paintings together. He blots the brush on the canvass to create the effect of leaves on the tree, and if you tried it, would look like someone just blotted the brush on the canvass aimlessly. If you’re lucky, you will see him throw in a pond which reflects the image of the snow capped mountain. And finally after thirty minutes, we have a work of art.
The problem is if you turned off the show ten minutes in, you would have no clue as to what Ross was painting.
Similar to a viewer who tunes in to the first ten minutes of The Joy of Painting and thinks Ross is a terrible painter, Mets fans, only seeing some blotches and lines scribbled on the canvass, have wrongly judged Alderson’s plan after the first ten or twenty minutes of his episode. But now we are getting closer to the end of the episode, and things are starting to take shape with Alderson’s plan.
We are seeing some top flight prospects materialize before our very eyes. It doesn’t matter how they got here—they’re here. And they arrived on Alderson’s watch. The outfield doesn’t look spectacular right now, but it won’t be as bad as people are making it out to be. I went out on a limb a couple of weeks ago and said the Mets could win over 85 games, and I’m sticking by that prediction.
David Wright, Ike Davis, Daniel Murphy, Bobby Parnell, Jonathon Niese, Matt Harvey, Josh Edgin…
The Mets have a young core of guys that want to win and have something to prove. That can be an incredible driving force and motivating factor that can make a difference in the win column. The Mets minor league system has improved, and I am now convinced it will continue to improve as long as Alderson is the general manager.
This quote from Alderson in the New York Times sums it up nicely:
We’ve got the basic building blocks. We’ve got some talented players. We’ve got a lot of pitching depth in our system. And I think we’re going to have some financial flexibility; we’re not saddled with even two-year contracts. But, ultimately, you’ve got to put it all together, too.
It may have taken me awhile, but I’m coming around. It’s time to believe in the plan and the man behind the plan. I’m a Mets fan…always have been and always will be. Nothing will ever change that. This team needs the fans’ support if they are going to be contenders, no matter what the circumstances are. Either that, or we can continue complaining about the crappy painting, and change the channel ten minutes into the episode before it starts to take shape.
It’s time to be grateful for what Alderson has done so far and have faith that this team is in the right hands.
About the Author: Mitch Petanick
Mitch is currently an Editor and Minor League Analyst for Mets Merized Online. His baseball experience includes being a former All-Conference collegiate baseball player who had numerous professional tryouts, and he is currently a hitting instructor. He has been involved with the game of baseball for over 30 years now as a player, coach, and consultant. Mitch is also a former Featured Columnist on Bleacher Report. You can follow him on Twitter @FirstPitchMitch.
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Ah, Bob Ross and his skills with painting with a knife…
It’ll all start to come together (or fall apart) dependent on the kiddies. Here is to hoping. I will say, though, with the sheer volume of pitching prospects with promise, a few have to pan out, right?
I can’t Mitch, sorry,
I can’t support a general manager who chooses to cease all operations while rebuilding. I can’t support a GM who in my opinion ceased operations for the sake of draft picks. I just cannot, and I wont’ forgive him for it going forward either. I also don’t like his One-Size-Fits all hitting philosophy either and we don’t know yet how much damage (or good) it can do. In my opinion nobody can disprove that it has already contributed to the problems of Duda, Ike, & Murphy last year.
And who’s to say Salderson won’t wave the white flag again in the future in favor of draft picks when we think all we need is a couple of players.
I will never support this guy and his cronies.
and getting a couple of prospects for stars like Beltran & Dickey (Cy Young season) doesn’t impress me either. I don’t think it’s anything special for any GM to move a star for good prospects. Major stars will always go for top prospects so there’s nothing magical about that. And so far in his 3 years his trading skills have been non-existent to awful.
“I will never support this guy and his cronies.”
Well considering that it looks like either he or his cronies will be here for a long time, there are 29 other teams you need to start looking at since supporting the Mets isnt on your agenda.
It reminds me of Rush Limbaugh rooting against America because his candidate didnt win the election.
Check out Yankees.com…you might be happier over there.
I just might. You never know. I could never hate what they’re doing over in the Bronx as much as I hate this current administration.
Bayonne can defend himself but there’s a difference between being a loyal fan and hating a front office. I hated M. Donald Grant, loved Cashen, hated Harazin, loved McIlvaine, hated (and I mean hated) Steve Phillips, was somehwat indifferent to Jim Duquette (except for Kazmir) liked Omar Minaya and am skeptical of Sandy Alderson (and don’t understand the lavish praise he gets). I have sat with 2,000 people in the late 70′s, sat with 56,000 people in 86, woke my son up to watch Santana’s no-no. We are all on here because we are inexplicably passionate about this team which has won 2 World Series in its 51 year history. So please, stop with the love it or leave it mentality. I hope the Mets win 100 games this year and am completely off base. But experience tells me otherwise.
As for “young talent”, the Yankees have missed the playoffs once since 1994. I think that counts as sustained success. From 1998 to the present, the Red Sox won 90 plus games 10 times, I think that counts as sustained success. The Braves have won a single playoff game since 2005 and the Mets have been to the World Series and the NLCS more recently than the Braves. I agree young talent is great, but it is by no means the exclusive way to sustained success.
Exactly. Your needs change every single year. Every single season and off season has it’s own life and you have to adapt from year to year and be ready for the unexpected and the best GMs know how to deal with the unexpected. EVERYBODY wants homegrown talent and some years you have it more than others so you do what you have to do to compete as long as you feel you have a chance.
There is no one set way to build a roster. You can have a template, but there is no one set way because life has a tendency to tap on your shoulder. Like John Lennon once wrote “Life is what happens to you while you’re busy making other plans”.
The rigidity of this current administration will be their undoing.
Old School –
As for “young talent”, the Yankees have missed the playoffs once since 1994.
You’re right. And everybody sees the beginning of the end, and why? Because their young core is heading toward the retirement farm. Sure every player matters but guys like Bernie, Mo, Jeter, Jorge, Pettitte created a young foundation that bringing in guys like say Cone, etc wouldn’t have mattered as much.
The Yankees aren’t in a position to spend and have sustained success without sustaining their young core.
I would rather face the beginning of the end (of a near 20 year run of annual Championship baseball) than face the LONG WAIT of the Beginning that may NEVER COME because it’s nothing but a WISH and a HOPE!
And just to put it into perpective a bit more….
I’m 50…So if they did what the Yankees do and get me 20 years of what the Yankees got I will be 70 and will probably start being to senile to notice their EVENTUAL decline at that time!
Let my Grandkids suffer through what I did the first 25 years and give me a champion!
“the yanks aren’t in a position to spend”? says who? They just offered Cano somewhere in the range of 150 – 200 million. They make the playoffs every year because they are dedicated to winning every year at the major league level.
Ironic that the Yankees championship runs were set around a foundation that was home grown and young. And then these same people conveniently over look the fact that many of the WS winning pieces were acquired via trade for young players named Sterling Hitchcock, Roberto Kelly, and Alfonso Soriano to just name a few. Yet when the Mets attempt to do that, they are met with the overwhelming idea that a big city team needs to spend money. Forget the realities of baseball…just spend.
The plan is simple…so simple that most miss it.
1. Develop a young core
2. Retain that core and get them locked up to long term contracts
3. Add established players to fill in either via FA or trade.
And you do you know worked this plan to perfection? The NY Yankees in the 1990s and through.
you got it man. It’s so simple. Just like that. See how good it looks on paper, everyone?
so it seems that you agree with what they are doing?
#1 is in progress. At least on the pitching side for now.
#2, they just did that this offeason (got royally roasted though from some quarters, but can’t have everything).
#3 is what happens every year, with the theory being more trade chips and $$ next off season to up the quality of the fillers.
so, seems like the plan is moving ahead.
If the Yankees had not spent $75 million on Sabathia, Burnett and Teixeira in the 2008 offeason, no championship in 2009 and Girardi and Cashman would currently be studio analysts on the MLB Network. 1996-2000 Yankees were either #1 or #2 in payroll each year. Lose Don Mattingly? Sign Tino Martinez (an integral part of those teams and a free agent). Sign Daryl Strawberry for your bench. Resign David Cone to a big contract in ’96. Lose Free agent Jimmy Key in 1996, sign even more expensive David Wells in ’97.Sign El Duque in ’98.
Sign Kenny Rogers and Hideki irabu (well they can’t all be hits). 3 of the 4 starters were free agent acquisitions. So were the 1st baseman, left fielder, right fielder, Joe Girardi. So this notion that the Yankees developed a youthful “core” and built around them, means all you need are 4 players and then build 20 players around them. That’s not how it happened.
But when I’m wrong about something I will man up imemdiately. Tino and Paul O’Neill were trades (for Hitchcock and Kelly). Doesn’t change the premise all that much, but I was wrong on those two items.
Yet players like Robinson Cano, Melky Cabrera, Joba Chamberlain, Phil Hughes, Nret Gardner, Dave Robertson and Brian Bruney you don’t mention.
And don’t forget trading Soriano for Rodriguez.
Yes, it was the young talent and not the ability to pick up most of A-Rod’s monster contract that sealed the deal there.
How many other deals work where a team eats the whole contract and gives up a legit 30-30 player?
It is usually one or the other. Even the Mets had to send cash with Beltran and Rodriguez.
With the exception of Cano and Robertson, what’s to mention? Phil Hughes is a middling starter on a great offensive team. Melky, pre-steroids was the epitome of a mediocre outfielder. Joba has been too frequently injured. And I will never get the fixation on the .266 lifetime hitter Brett Gardner. He’s a nice player. And all of these players were on the 2008 team that missed the playoffs and required $75 million in free agent spending in 2009.
Your point was just about winning the W.S. in 2009 not entire careers. The Yankees won yes with the players you mentioned and yet the players you failed to mention all Yankee kids with the exception of Bruney were young players that came out of the Yankee system to help them win.
So that I am clear the Yankees were able to add free agents to help them win in 2009 around already Yankee system veterans Jeter, Rivera, Pettite and Posada and added younger Yankee system players Robinson Cano, Melky Cabrera, Joba Chamberlain, Phil Hughes, Bret Gardner and Dave Robertson.
pg
Didn’t they get Cano from another organization? Didn;t some club give them a choice of two guys and they picked the right one?
And Granderson and Damon and Clemmons, ad Wels, And Johnson, and Cone, and Strawberry, and Gooden, and Hernandez, and Tex and Matsui etc etc etc…who never get any of the credit just that core of 5 players that they had together as their core for a grand total of 5 years together before they tried to dump one of them.
Granderson was traded for. Clemens was traded for. Wells was traded for. Cone was traded for. Strawberry was a bench signing. Gooden was a back-end signing.
My mistake. Wells was signed. He was traded for Clemens.
And then re-signed to big fat FA contracts….
Nice try Mr Semantics….
But everyone but Granderson has been re-signed and it’s only because his contract isn’t up yet!
Here is just the short list
Joe Girardi
Mariano Duncan
Wade Boggs
Paul O’Neil
Tim Raines
Darryl Strawberry
Kenny Rodgers
Dwight Gooden
Jimmy Key
David Cone
David Wells
Roger Clemons
Randy Johnson
Denny Neagle
Orlando Hernandez
CC Sabathia
Mark Texiera
Alex Rodriguez
Johnny Damon
Hidecki Matsui
Have fun finding some semantical way to say all those names were not important just those 5 guys that all finally arrived AFTER they won thier first championship….
A very vast percentage of those guys were traded for using kids developed from the system. The very few that were acquired via free agency, even fewer of those were substantial contracts. That whole list and only A-Rod, CC and Tex have/had contracts north of four years, and A-Rod was acquired initially via trade, anyway. The point is, the Yankees were able to build from within and use free agency to add to the final pieces of the puzzle, not to start building their team. If they hadn’t had a core in place of controllable, young talent that allowed them to use their resources in other areas, their dynasty would most likely never have happened.
Remember, there were some lean years before the winning started in which Stick Michael rebuilt the franchise.
All those guys were important, but with the exception of CC, A-Rod and Tex, all of them were secondary talent to complement the ace in Pettitte, the perennial all stars in Jeter and Williams and the best reliever in world.
Ironic that you didn’t notice they got to the championshuip a year before that core arrived!
Williams and Pettite were the only core part of thier starting lineup in 95!
And they hadn’t finished below 3rd in thier division as far back as 1993 before any of those young kids you think made them winners were even on the roster at all!
But thats your fairytale and your sticking to it!
I think you make a great point Old School. I can remember watching or listening to Met braodcasts back then and vididly remember the hyping of “young talent” such as Roy Staiger, Hank Webb, Craig Swan, Bruce Boclair, etc etc These guys were the Daniel Murphy’s, Josh Thole’s Booby Parnell’s of today. I hated the Donald Grant with a passion!
You hated M Donald Grant?
I wish the SOB were still alive so that he could die a longer…slower…and more painful death
He is responsible for the fall of the NY Mets in the mid 1970′s, He might as well have been a southern plantation owner instead. Had absolutely no clue as to how the game was changing because of the “collapse” of the Reserve Clause.
When Gil Hodges and then Mrs. Payson died, Grant ended up making the GM ‘s job a joke in terms of acquisitions and salaries! A real POS.
Task,
That is the best comparison I’ve heard on this! I agree!
On Bob Ross. Any truth to the legends that many of those episodes were filmed in prison?
bayonne your problem is that your analysis is strictly about numbers and stats. play the game, and you would see things differently.
Bought into from day 1 because, as knowledgeable baseball fans who look at history know, it is the only proven method for sustained baseball success. Teams can buy their way into the playoffs for a while, like the Mets and others did, but they soon collapse. So a team is left reloading (like Boston) or to reset. Sadly, the Mets needed to do this back in 2002-2003. In other words, it is long overdue.
It is the new breed Yankee fan who buys into the spend at all costs mentality and even they are realizing the limitations of that. Even their boom/bust cycle is occurring. Regardless of what people try to do, you cannot outrun Father Time.
Nobody was “bought” in 2006.
And big deal that a few like Ventura, Orel Hershiser, & Zeile were signed. Nothing other than par for the course in adding players in 1999 & 2000.
They just lost the games. That’s it. All you’re doing second guessing because your angry they lost some big ballgames, t agee.
But that doesn’t prevent you from doing what you’re best at and that’s unfairly judging and give a dishonest view of the Mets past just because they lost a few big games when they had their chance for sustained success.
Ah back to the name calling. Well I guess you wouldnt be you unless you were trying to lift yourself by tearing someone else down.
As for you inane idea about losing a few games, here is some insight for you. Sports are about winning. That is why the games are played. I know that mindset was lost with some of the pansy ass ideas of the psychological community. Winning is what matters.
And yes the Mets lost a few games…in fact they lost a lot of games since 1990 while spending a boat load of money. Saying they only lost 6 games is like saying if the Bills won 4 more games they would have 4 superbowl titles. Well guess what…they didnt. They lost. They were 4 time super bowl losers. And the Mets for all their money spent, have 3 playoff appearances to show for it. That is all. Those are the facts bucko and to try to spin them any other way is naive, misleading, and non effective.
What name calling? I happen to think you are t agee under a new name. That’s my opinion. I didn’t call you any names but I will…and soon if you keep it up.
No kidding Winning is all that matters. What in my response gave you the idea that I thought it was not? Sure they spent boatloads on Murray, Coleman, etc and that didn’t work out and things didn’t work out in 2002-2004.
But they DID work out in 1990,1999-2000 and 2006 and they just lost the big games. That’s it. Don’t know WHERE you would think i’m not putting a premium on winning or spinning anything with those observations. You’re just making that up exactly like you did in the past under your other name.
YOU are the one that falsely said that all the Mets did to fill holes was spend. I’m saying that’s not true. Sometimes they did an sometimes they didn’t. And the years they did not spend boatloads were years they were most successful. YOU are the one that keeps twisting what you’re saying whenever you are called out on it.
Well Bayonne, that opinion, like almost all of your opinions, is wrong. I dont know who Tagee is or was. But since you disagree, I will say that he or she was probably an intelligent person.
No you make the case that they Mets have a record of something over the past 20+ years….they do not. They have the 5th least playoff appearances in major league baseball since 1991 (AZ has more playoff appearances and they didnt start playing until 1998-how sad is that). Yet you still condone the same mentality of what created these results. Fred Wilpon has always spent money…that was never an issue. And it equated into the success you espouse.
Well, personally, as a fan, I want to root for an organization that is NOT one of the worst in baseball. It was long overdue for someone to come in and tell Fred that the gig was up. Was it Bud, Sandy, or Uncle Bernies problems that caused it? Who knows. The bottom line is that the Mets are finally acting like a sane baseball organization intent on building something that yields more than a few playoff appearances every couple of decades.
But you hold onto the same approach that netted these pathetic results and detest the guy who is solving the problem. Like it or not, all Met success in the next 5 years is contingent upon Alderson.
Bayonne, the guy you are saying is really t agee is not. Their writing styles are completely different. They share the view that you are often wrong. That’s all they have in common.
Oh so you’ve been around so what was your name before you change it to this one?
Go ahead, Bayonne. Change the subject when other bloggers disagree with you. lol
His name was Alex68 We sabergoons converted him.
That is not even a remotely accurate statement. After the ’93 season, the Mets gutted payroll and did exactly what you wanted. They tried to homegrow a rotation, they traded Bonilla for “cant’ miss, five tool prospect” Alex Ochoa, developed Ordonez and Alfonzo, etc. From 94-97, the Mets were never higher than #16 in payroll. In ’98, after Piazza they were #9 and were eliminated from playoff contention in game 162. During the next two years, they were never higher than #6 in payroll, meanwhile attendance had hit a 10 year high. So the notion that the Mets tried to spend their way to success and it crashed and burned isn’t really true, at least with respect from 94-01.
Nobody was “bought” in 2006.
Wasn’t Billy Wagner brought in as a free agent for 4yrs/40+ mil after the 2005 season?
Sorry Bayonne Mets fan. You simply don’t get. Alderson inherited a mess of a team with no money to spend. He didn’t create the mess but he had to clean it up. He then turned Beltran and Dickey into two of the best prospects in baseball. In both cases many “experts” didn’t think he’d be able to get the prospects he wanted. By being patient he did. Now we’ve got the top catching prospect on one of the top pitching prospects in all of baseball. If you don’t think that’s impressive then you should go root for the team in the Bronx.
no, YOU don’t get it.
He didn’t inherit a “mess of a team”. That is one of the most blatantly misrepresented things being said going around today. The “mess” was off the field not on the field.
he inherited a VERY nice roster and very nice farm that is the backbone of the friggin’ entire rebuilding process. And a rebuilding process that ALREADY should have been supported by him going out and getting another veteran, major league outfielder/leadoff guy. His roster building so far has been horrific with too many players out of position because of his philosophy, his failed free agent signings like last year’s bullpen & DJ Carrasco.
All he’s done outside of getting rid of 2 prime players for prospects is provide this team with variable levels of filler since he’s arrived and arguably his best signing – Hairston (who is gone) was a free swinger!
Bayonne Mets Fan, so you say the mess Alderson inherited was off the field, not on it. So inherited the contracts of Bay, Perez and Castillo just to name a few, didn’t impact his ability to improve the team? You may be the dumbest baseball fan out there. Please, go root for the team in the Bronx. That’s where all teh clueless fans are anyway.
Madoff scandal was more damaging than the contracts you are Second Guessing about.
I get it, so i have a completely different opinion on how things should be done around here so that makes me a Yankee fan.
ok.
Hey, you are the one who said you may check out the team in the Bronx when someone suggested it above. That doesn’t sound like a loyal Mets fan to me. That sounds like a fair weather fan.
Are you that oblivious to the fact that Alderson had no money to spend as a result of a) Madoff and b) the ridiculous contracts on the books, thanks to his predecesor? Wow.
Castillo and Perez came off the books at the end of 2011. How did they prevent contracts from being offered in 2012? The problem was predominantly Madoff.
He inherited a roster that had put together 2 consecutive 4th place finishes, an overpaid abusive reliever who was within 2 years of not even getting a job, a CF and SS who were often injured, and a former CY winner who would finished the season on the DL and would miss 1.5 of the next 2 years.
And as for the farm system, that backbone was so great that most people ranked them in the lower 25% of baseball.
And today, that farm system is so strong that they have one significant OF in AAA (Den Dekker) after 2 seasons of signing Minor League FAs and no catchers to be seen. Look at the AAA roster and you will see how pathetic the farm system was. Or look at the backups at the major league level. Where is someone who can play 1B behind Ike? OF, we wont even mention. How about a middle IF? Oh I forgot, 1 in 10 years. C? Forget about it. SS? Other than Tejada who is pushing him? Nobody.
Again, you can make the claim about such a strong farm but it was trash. And the argument that it was worse when Omar came in might be true but holds no merit in this convo.
But the premise was the farm was “barren” with nobody in it. Omar had 6 drafts, it produced Pelfrey, Niese, Gee, Harvey. That’s four starting pitchers who will be on opening day rosters, not to mention signing a free agent knuckleballer for next to nothing. Developed Joe Smith (traded in the ill-fated JJ Putz trade) and Bobby Parnell. Signs Mejia and Familia.Did this with relatively low draft positions because they had winning records in all but the last season.
Funny you mention backup 1st basemen. In a perfect world that man;’s name is Lucas Duda. Kirk and Dandekker are serviceable. Dan Murphy, Tejada, even Josh Thole. Somehow this bottom 25% farm system managed to produce 15 players who played on last year’s team. It seems the complaints about a barren farm system were overstated to say the least.
the real problem is that last years team was not all that good with those guys. Just having players from the system does not mean anything in and of itself. What really counts is how good they are.
every club can fill a roster out with bench/pen/backups from the MiL system. What teams really need to succeed are the stars that become key building blocks.
I don’t disagree about that, but getting two very good starting pitchers (Niese and Harvey) and having Gee gives the Mets something to work with. Ike Davis looks good and for all our complaints, I think Murphy has a good year as will Tejada. But that outfield and bullpen, yikes.
What’s the over/under on Post Headlines — Waiting for d’Arnaud?
4th place due to injuries….
and guess what we have now? 4th Place without the injuries! GREAT JOB!
Just hope that Met games in August won’t be like watching paint drying.
I’m a Mets fan. I supported Steve Phillips, I supported Duquette, I supported Minaya (before it was the “cool thing” to do), I supported Jerry, I supported Kaz Matsui, I supported Luis Castillo.
Until we get to a point where it’s CLEAR things are not going as they should – I’ll support any GM and give them the time they need to make my life as a fan better.
We’ve tried it every which way before. We’ve tried the big overpaid free agents, we’ve tried the big trade, we’ve tried it all. Teams all around the league are focusing on young players and less on filing their rosters with overpriced talent.
So I’m not really gonna get sour on the Mets because truth be told, we have some of the best young talent in the sport right now.
jessep — well said. So much so I won’t repeat the excellent points you’ve just made.
Let’s go Mets!!!
Count me (for the moment) as an unhappy little tree. But trading Beltran and Dickey for prospects does not constitute a “plan”. That’s pretty much the extent of his work over the past two seasons, isn’t it? He inherited Davis, Murphy, Tejada, Wright, Duda, Kirk, Niese, Gee, Harvey, Santana and Parnell. That’s the entire infield, 2/3 of the outfield and set up man. As for the future, the three prospects in the top 100 are D’Arnaud, Wheeler and Syndegaard which he got for Beltran/Dickey. Miami has 6 in the top 100, so I guess their plan is twice as good as ours.
No one with a plan would be trotting out this outfield or bullpen in their third season as a GM. He was admittedly extraordinarily hamstrung by payroll issues but not signing Scott Hairston to a two year $4 million contract was inexplicable.
I do think that the Mets will be much improved in 2014, but this year is looking like they will get a lot worse (66-96) before they get better. I have been rooting for this team since 1973 and have seen enough to realize when the emperor has no clothes.
“He inherited Davis, Murphy, Tejada, Wright, Duda, Kirk, Niese, Gee, Harvey, Santana and Parnell. ”
Not exactly a bunch of all stars you list here. In fact, most if not all of them (other than Harvey), fans on here have posted that the Mets need to get rid of.
And you should be impressed with the Beltran trade. Beltran wasnt going to resign so an expiring contract was dealt for what became a top notch prospect. Of course we all hope at worst he is a good major league pitcher. The Dickey trade was another one which is impressive. The guy is 38 and before anyone goes on the “he is a knuckleballer”, look up the stats of those who pitched and their records past 40. Other than P. Niekro, they werent very good. I would say the Mets have a fair chance of winning both those trades.
And step back for a moment, if you are complaining about not signing Scott Hairston, then you are complaining about nickles. What difference was he going to make? Some RH pop? Sure. But he couldnt catch the ball much better than Duda. He was a nice piece when he was here but he outlived his usefulness. And remember, his 2011 wasnt exactly spectacular while 2012 was a career year. Which will 2013 resemble.
I maintain since the end of the run in the mid 80s, the Mets, as an organization have been pretty pathetic. Their record supports that point. They developed few players who even turned into decent major league talent. They spent money and have nothing to show for it other than 3 lousy playoff appearances. Other than that, what is there.
So you are jilted now? In comparison to what took place the last few decades, this is minor. It is about time someone tried to implement some sanity into the equation.
taskmaster4450 March 1, 2013 at 11:08 am
“ ‘He inherited Davis, Murphy, Tejada, Wright, Duda, Kirk, Niese, Gee, Harvey, Santana and Parnell’. ”
Not exactly a bunch of all stars you list here. In fact, most if not all of them (other than Harvey), fans on here have posted that the Mets need to get rid of. ”
Not exactly a bunch of all stars? What the hell does that even mean?
Davis can be an all star one day, Tejada can – you don’t know if he never will be, Wright has been an all star, Maybe Kirk will be voted in or named once in his career, Niese? Why can’t he have an all star season one year? Harvey? CAN HE AT LEAST GET HIS CAREER STARTED? Santana?
Dude, don’t get caught up and get too proud of your baseball knowledge because it’s not that good at all.
and who says that they would never have all star seasons for other teams?
Ah Bayonne.. Someday maybe you will start to pay attention.
I have maintained repeatedly, that the book on Omar is NOT done being written nor will it be for some time. However, the fact remains is that, as of this moment, not one player he developed has a single all star appearance…not a one. That could change.
The point of the post is that for all the “talent” that Alderson supposedly inherited, the Mets are projected to suck. Actually, now that I think about it, it is people with your mindset who are place the lowest win totals for this year. So, if these guys are so damn good, how come you people are projecting 66, 70, 71 wins etc…? How many of you are wanting to trade Murphy? Who is clamoring for an entire new OF when there are the inherited pieces of Duda and Kirk (and Den Dekker to follow). Yet you all want Hairston.
So which is it…..you put forth a hypocritical position. Is what the Mets have which was inherited wonderful and all star material which means that success is near or is it they suck and Alderson should be replacing most of them? You cannot have it both ways.
Really, we need to trade Ike Davis, Jon Niese, Dillon Gee Matt Harvey, David Wright and Bobby Parnell?3/5 of the starting rotation which everyone on here swoons about was inherited. Would have been 4/5 and included a Cy Young Award winner for which we got the #25 prospect in baseball, so pardon me if I don’t jump up and down that the great Sandy Alderson has lowered himself to run the Mets.
If you look at history the Mets gutted the team after the 93 fiasco and tried to develop talent from 93-97 with mixed success. Wilson and Pulsipher got hurt and Izzy was developed as a reliever too late. Their payrolls were never higher than No. 9 for five seasons so they did exactly what you prescribed but that is not a guarantee of success. And it got them nothing until they made a bold move and got Piazza. This isn’t a morality play. Acquiring free agents is not necessarily a bad thing.
Let’s put Wilmer Flores at first base and trade Ike for a high quality guy in the outfield. The acquired outfielder has to swing from the right side.
“Not exactly a bunch of all stars you list here”
No just 6 (Min 9 potential) Core members to build around!
How many did the Yankees, Phillies and Braves have when they started building around thier cores?
I understand some may not be high on the GM due to saber ideas, moneyball and the idea that the man is not a baseball man but just a lawyer rather than simply looking at what he has done as Mets GM. To each his own. My thing has been from Day 1 was to give the GM a chance to execute his ideas and see if they provide results and while some are happy with just a .500 record results for me is a W.S. Ring. Something no GM since Cashen has been able to do. Patience is not for the weak as we all have are limits but in my opinion I think this idea that the Mets going all in every season is impractical and I have always tried to weigh what is done with where the team is at that moment and looked at moves or non moves accordingly.
What is that saying, best-laid plans of mice and men… No guarantees that this plan will work but I know the prior plans all failed as well. The last plan that worked was implemented by the man hired way back in 1980. That is a very long time ago and he didn’t win a W.S. Ring till 6 years later. The least I can do is allow the GM 3 to see how his plan is coming together.
I am not calling for his head and he should get 5 years to see how it goes. I had no preconceived notions going in, thought he had a great background. But he inherited a 79-83 team. No question payroll needed to be trimmed, but slashing it to $95 million? That’s an ownership issue. And he repeatedly represented that payroll would be in the $100-$110,000 million range. That was never going to be remotely true and he knew it. Donnie Walsh was upfront with the Knicks that he was going to wait out contracrs. Alderson was never that candid. There’s a big difference between $95 million and $110 million and the lack of candor rubbed me the wrong way.
Then the Pagan fiasco. People talk about a plan. You just traded Beltran, let Reyes go, Davis had been out for the year, Wright was coming off his back injury and Bay has been awful. Coming into 2012, offense was going to be a big problem. While Pagan had his ups and downs he could hit. So you trade him for a player you knew would not hit. So you end up prematurely having to call up Kirk. if the plan is to nurture young talent (remember how Minaya “ruined” Pelfrey and Mejia) and you know you won’t be contending, why create a situation where you have to forcefeed one of your prospects. It goes totally against the so-called philosophy of player development and was completey forseeable. Then rather than own up to a mistake, trash the guy’s character and say you “had” to trade him and reveal private, embarassing information about him. A very classy front office we have.
A GM should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. You can build for the future while at the same time putting on the most competitive team you can. A lot of you subsrcibe to “if the transaction won’t make us a contender why do it at all?” mentality which I find insane. “Sure Dickey’s great, but we won’t win this year so why keep him?” Same with Hairston and then the rationale for no Bourn or Upton. You couldn’t sign Ludwick or somebody else on a two year deal? There’s a big difference between between a break the bank contract and Cody Ross helping the team.
So the jury is still out, but I have not liked much of what I have seen to date.
Well wait. Okay can we stop acting like Pagan in 2011 was showing signs that he was worth much? Can we also not forget he was in a contract year. So okay, the Mets keep Pagan for 2012 then what? Is Pagan the answer in the OF for the next 4 years? I don’t think so.
Did he misfire on the deal? Yes. But that doesn’t mean it was a bad idea. He was trying to fix a bigger problem which was the bullpen.
Ramon Ramirez didn’t do what the back of his baseball cards say he usually does.
Kirk was a 24 year old who already had been in AAA for two years and they brought in a defensive minded CF in Torres to fill the void.
The PLAN or the IDEA wasn’t bad. The result was.
Pagan was coming off a below average 2011 and he had his best year since 2009 which coincidentally was when any Pagan fan became a fan.
But that 2012 season just bought Pagan a guaranteed contract until he is 35 years old and I’m sorry but Angel Pagan is not going to be a starting OF when he’s 33, let alone 35.
So we missed out on him in 2012. Big deal. Would we have signed him to 4 years in 2013? Doubtful.
This was a horrible idea from the get go. You were finishing talks on Francisco and Rauch and had Parnell so Ramirez was at best going to do some middle relief, which is exactly where they penned him in. So you trade Pagan for an older centerfielder who was coming off a .220 year (Pagan’s off year was .260). Kirk had some injuries an only played 50 AAA games in 2011 and had not warranted so much as a Septepmber call up in either 2010 or 2011. If the idea was to develop players, you let Pagan play out his year (maybe trade him at the deadline and get something) and then call up Kirk after he tears up AAA in 2012. So the offense benefits in 2012 and a player gets properly developed and not rushed. It was a bad idea and Ramirez (he having been traded 4 times in five years) being ineffective was just icing.
A GM for a Major League Baseball team should not be using Baseball cards to judge who he trades and gets!
10 Year olds do that not Paid Professional General Managers!
Thats why they have scouts!
Thats why they hire guys who are supposed to be Wizards at Statistical analysis and finding the truth the baseball card doesn’t display!
As for Pagan he was showing he was well worth 5 Million dollars a hell of lot more than Ramirez and Torres combined were worth 6 Million!
Those guys did nothing to shore up a poor bullpen and for that nothing we created an “Outfield? What Outfield?” Situation!
One we almost had to pay 14 Mil for 6 years and a loss of a 1st round 12th overall pick!
I find it funny how some act as if trading Pagan was a big crime when after his season with the Mets one of the topics was how they can upgrade on Pagan. I also like how without any evidence whatsoever the front office gets blamed for trashing a player on his way out. It is easier I guess for some to just believe it is so though God knows I don’t know why.
I know this. The trade for Pagan did not work not because of Torres but because Ramirez could not do for New York what he did for S.F. A trade that didn’t work out for us. It wasn’t the 1st and won’t be the last. I know that after the Dickey trade all Dickey ever had to say was good things about his relationship with the GM. That is not to say that means he feels the same about say ownership or anyone else in the organization but to take that and then blindly point fingers doesn’t make sense as well at least not to me.
Capt Kirk was called up after Torres wound up going on the dl if I remember correctly. Some may argue that he should of never been called up and I guess the same can be said about Ike Davis then as well. I think Kirk had put up enough numbers in AAA to merit the call up myself and it looks like he did merit it based on how well he did the 1st 2 1/2 months of the season but I admit I am biased when it comes to Kirk.
This whole “You can build for the future while at the same time putting on the most competitive team you can.” is a nice idea that I think the GM has tried to implement but I am of the opinion that some just are hung up on what they perceive as “putting on the most competitive team you can” The FO idea of most competitive and that of some fans just differ. I still contend that the focus should be on building a team that can finally win a Ring but I find I am in the minority in that respect.
In any case time moves on and I watch to see if this FO can build a team that brings a ring back to Queens.
Evidence of being trashed — Read the stories in 2011 how pagan was surly, how he listened to his IPod all day and Collins called him into his office to buck him up. Read about how they publicized his colitis during a game (he basically #$#$ himself during a game and the Mets told people about it); rumors of non-tendering him. Then when Pagan’s World Series made the Mets look even worse, Anthony DiComo trots out a story about how they “had” to trade him because he was so unhappy.
Look every GM makes a bad trade. But so far, in three seasons, other than Capuano and Hairston, has this fron office added even a nice role player? A lot of bad, bad bullpen picks, Beato, Bucholz, Carrasco, some so-so ones (Byrdak, Rauch, Francisco). While certainly early, draft picks that haven’t set the world on fire. Just not seeing a cracker jack group of talent evaluators that give me faith that they know what they’re doing.
Well said.
I can’t buy it either….
Especially the part about him rebuilding the Minors and improving it…
The best his draft has produced is Nimmo who seems stuck in PSL….
The rest of the top of his farm cost him an OF and a Cy Young Pitcher.
And most of it is due to be MLB by the end of the year putting us back at square one on the farm short Two OFs and a Cy Young Pitcher.
The most recent kid a catcher with Back and Knee issues.
I certainly do not buy that he has improved the development. There isn’t a kid that came up that did not K too much or struggle with the bat.
Mejia and Familia don’t seem to have gotten over thier humps to be the starters everyone thought they should be.
The only thing I can really give Sandy credit for at this point is he made a ton of room on the roster to play the kids we have and making it pretty easy for them to stick because the PAID competition brought in was of such low quality there was no reason to pay someone for what any 3A or 4A kid could have given you. Better to package up all that money spent on trash and get at least one REAL OFer.
His temp replacement for Dickey is now being held back based on durability issues. And unless that guy is a 15 game winner it’s not very likely the rest of the rotation will make up the loss of Dickey’s win column.
Nope I can’t buy into what is still largely a Maybe requiring everything to go perfectly in order to succeed.
Hefner is still going to get plenty of starts this year, We still will have guys playing positions they have no business playing (Valde, Lutz and Turner in the OF?)
Lets just Hope Den Dekker makes the team, doesn’t show his usual struggles jumping a level and solidifies the OF defense without taking on a weak bat.
Then maybe they have a chance of winning as many games as last year that Harvey for a full season can add a few games to put us back to where we won in WinPct in 2010 when Sandy took over.
Den Dekker is the goods…I think he’s the best outfielder on the 40-man roster.
I don’t know if you answered me when I asked this before so I apologize if you are repeating yourself:
Do you think that was part of the reason they didn’t go all in on Bourn? They profile similarly, except with Bourn having slightly more speed and MDD having slightly more pop.
Sorry, Donal…meant no disrespect. I remember seeing your comment and I meant to reply. I do think MDD was a big reason why they decided to pass on Bourn. This kid can win the CF job outright this spring, and I wish the Mets would recognize that what he brings defensively will more than make up for and offensive challenges he may face at the major league level. Not to say his bat won’t come around…it will…but they have to stick with him and not send him down to Triple A as he adjusts. Give him the CF job and bat him 8th until he’s ready to move up so there is less pressure on him to perform offensively out of the 8 hole.
I agree with the point regarding the GLOVE was the key component to Both Bourn and MDD.
If we can soldify the defense in CF then that allows Duda (who could be our biggest offensive plus OFer, (Way more than Bourn) to cheat the line in LF where maybe the defense is not a liability to keeping the bat.
Then it’s not a big issue who plays RF because we STILL will want to add another Power RHB bat ad RF seems to be the best place to put it.
So I agree that as long as MDD adds the glove and real estate coverage CF needs to compensate a bit for Duda and the RFer, It will give us time to find the bat we want from Duda and Kirk or Cowgill or Valde or (Insert name here)…..
Then if MDD gives you some more bat it’s all GRAVY!
Maybe they just want him to shake off his rough AAA start before putting him on the 25 man roster. Its not like we don’t already have a high strike out, lefty hitting CF.
I would rather see Kirk start at AAA than den dekker
He may be the best defensive OF, but he can’t hit. 25-years old with a career K% around 24. That is pure garbage.
“The best his draft has produced is Nimmo who seems stuck in PSL”
Uh, he’s 19 and played in Brooklyn and most likely being promoted to Savannah this Spring. And he’s done pretty well given his age.
Also, don’t forget Mazzoni, Leathersich and Fulmer. Not to mention IFA signings.
Yes and Tejada came into the MLB at 20…Whats your point?
He is still in PSL which means 4 years MINIMUM unless you want to change your mind about rushing prospects.
Is Hawkins that far away? NO! And he was taken a year later!
Is there a hole open for Hawkins in the OF RIGHT NOW? YES!
And probably still will be by the time he is ready to be promoted!
I have no problem with Nimmo as a player but he is not going to be a Met anytime soon!
“Is Hawkins that far away? NO! And he was taken a year later!”
2 years at least. He has all of 5 games at high A. If Hawkins struggles and Nimmo continues to progress, they might be even before the year ends.
but so what? Again, you miss the big picture. Hawkins has nothing to do with this conversation.
“Is there a hole open for Hawkins in the OF RIGHT NOW? YES!”
And that is why you end up running in the same circles.
MIGHT be EVEN after Nimmo had a year’s head start!
Too Funny….
Again, so what? He’s irrelevant to this discussion. Or do you really want to use the White Sox as the model to how a farm system should develop players?
Nimmo is very raw, that’s what people forget. But, he’s coming along very well.
Just not as well as guys taken a year after him….
If he is coming along WELL then What do you call how Hawkins is coming along?
GREAT? STUPENDOUS?
TOP RATED PROSPECT LIKE?
I don’t know since he has nothing to do with this discussion. Please stop trying to derail it.
Just because 2 different teams choose different development paths with certain players does not make one superior to the other.
Hawkins seems to have a problem with strike outs, while pitch recognition and selection is something the Mets are drilling into Nimmo.
Oh he has PLENTY to do with this discussion…
You just wish he didn’t and was never available to us….
In a discussion of BUYING into a plan based on how well he re-stocked the Minors Hawkins is VERY MUCH relevant when you consider who we took compared to who we could have had!
Sorry your not going to get away with that ploy.
No, he really doesn’t. The Mets have nothing to do with him. Nimmo has nothing to do with him.
A team that has a historically bad farm system acquired him. If he does well and has a good career, good for him. But, he has nothing to do with this discussion.
You’re derailing the conversation and missing the forest for the trees. I seen no further need to discuss. You can go ahead if you wish, but everything you have said thus far has been irrelevant.
“The Mets have nothing to do with him….”
yes we know…. Thanks to Sandy and this plan you love!
I might love it to if he drafted anyone that isn’t stuck in PSL….
Who is stuck in Port Saint Lucie? Do you know what Port Saint Lucie is?
I don’t really think Tejada’s situation is comparable to Nimmo’s. Ruben was playing in the minors from 17 on. Nimmo not only didn’t play high school ball, but he missed a season due to injury so he’s a unique case.
Ah now the Nimmo versus Hawkins as compared to the Gavin versus Hawkins.
The same thing holds true….anyone who is commenting one way or another is blasting out their opinion. And if one thinks he is correct then that personis showing everyone how egotistical he is. It is that simple.
There is only one reality with any of the players mentioned: nobody knows. Nimmo, Hawkins, Gavin…there is no way to tell what they are, who will make it, and who will flop. Come back in three years and we can discuss it then.
Mitch,
I am not among the camp that thinks Alderson is the devil on earth in the form of Mets GM. And, he has done some good for which he deserves credit. However, to “buy into his plan” may require consuming some heavily spiked Kool-aid. Yes, he has acquired some highly-rated propsects, but he has dealt elite talent to do so. To me he gets no pass on 2013, as this team has trended in the wrong direction record-wise since he has been here. His grade is an F on the 2013 outfield, and IMHO he also left the backend of the pen with too much risk closing as well. His statements that “they were in the discussions” on Bourn and Upton are minor-league. He lost on each, just like a team loses despite a 9th inning rally. Remember game 6 of the 2006 NLCS? The claim that has money to spend, yet he sits inactive with closers out there that can deepen this season’s pen without risking picks or future payrolls is just lame. Lastly, many of this deep crop of pitching prospects were inherited. Both #1 picks under his watch are not yet recognized as top 100 prospects. The failed to sign their 2nd round pick last year for slot money. I will remain an open-minded skeptic and begin to believe when the actions are consistent with the words.
I understand what you’re saying TJ and I agree. This piece wasn’t about the success of Alderson’s plan…like I said, I’m starting to buy into it…not completely sold yet, but I have faith things are starting to get better.
LOL well they sure can’t get much worse!
So I guess in that respect things may start to get better….
My main issue with the Plan is it didn’t have to be this way or this bad….
There were plenty of OFers available in FA this year…Not talking Bourn but he was an option they knew people wanted them to get but hid behind the loss of pick to get out from doing it.
My biggest issue with the plan is it has made finances worse not better….
Attendance may drop and the loss of revenues could erase all the savings he thought he got over the last two years….
And then we will wind up with a team losing money, No fat left to cut or look forward to cutting and no money to get the fans to come back to pay the bills.
We will be forced to trade away all these guys we are pinning our slim hopes on and then where will we be?
Right about where Cashen started off, Last in the league, Lots of top round picks to work with and THEN (and only then) a CREDIBLE REBUILD begins….
But there are a lot of really bad baseball, losing seasons and heartbreaks to come while that happens.
Metsie,
I agree 100%. There is no reason why they can’t implement “the plan” and also fill the holes so the team can complete. Bourn and Upton are water under th bridge. Right now we have FF soft tossing with a 60 year old and an unproven Parnell slated to close, at the same time there are proven closers (albeit with some uncertaintly around them) sitting on the sidelines, affordable, costing no draft picks, with no leverage for anything beyond a one-year commitment. And, Alderson says he has money. Who says a flier on Wilson can’t help them for 3/4 of the season? If Parnell outperforms him, fine he stays as closer. Any statement about competing in 2013 can’t be take seriously because there are no actions to back it up. That is not an indictment on everything abouot Alserson, but it is a reality. And as far as “the plan” goes, the Pirates have been using it for the last 20 years and the outcome has been the same as the two Met teams under Alderson, losing teams. The time to start winning in 2013, not 2014 or 2015.
It comes down to this for me TJ….
I have no issue with rebuilding in and of itself…
But do it RIGHT!
Sell off everyone the way the marlins did in 2011! Get the kids and the LOSSES so you get the top of Draft picks for two or three years you will need to rebuild with.
There is only ONE GOOD time to rebuild…When your already at your worst and losing games wholesale!
We were not the worst team and losing wholesale at the time Sandy got here. If he had a selloff to make us that befre 2011 even started then we might have been able to rebuild with the kids he got for Wright, Beltran, Reyes, K-Rod, and Santana plus those top overall picks we would have been drafting with from 2012 onwards. The Kids gotten from the Sllofs would have been considered the 2011 Top Draft picks in that case.
My issue with what happened is they were caught in the no mans land between Improve what you have to win or Sell off what you have to get worse….
And they decided to get worse only they did it piecemeal and didn’t convert every talent they had to Future and get to where they needed to be (Top 10 of draft) fast enough.
We made the top 10 this year and then lost it due to some obscure rule…If we had sold off all those players I mentioned then we would probably have had the top pick this year.
Rebuilding is kind of like Rehab….You have to be at rock bottom before you can start on the path to the cure.
It has taken us 2 years and we still aren’t there yet.
Timing is everything and we did not have the timine right.
We were not ready for a rebuild and we tried to get there only not fast enough to get the picks needed.
Andif thats the case it would have been better to try and make the team we had better as opposed to trading away the best player each year because those kinds of deals don’t return enough talent to rebuild with…You need the access to the top of every round in the draft to pull it off….
Basically the plan – all the way and from day 1 – has been to essentially re-set the salary clock for 2014 and assemble a generally young core group of players that has the makings of a winning roster by then that is also under long term team control. And at the same time, create a deep farm system that is ready to feed this young core with further prospects in the pipeline that can either be used as trade bait for short term upgrades or as in-house additions for sustainable long term success. And then start surrounding that youngish core group with additions from the outside here and there – be it via trade or via free agency – and benefit from having significant financial flexibility again. All of this under the premise that ownership shouldn´t lose the franchise during the three lean years getting there and thus trying to remain competitive without hurting the big picture and avoiding a total blow-up of the major league roster.
Look ahead at 2014 and that´s what you get – if Alderson´s plan works, i.e. your probable core with projected opening day ages & remaining team control:
Matt Harvey (25, 5 seasons)
Jon Niese (27, 5 seasons including club options)
Zack Wheeler (23, 6 seasons)
David Wright (31, 7 seasons)
Travis d´Arnaud (25, 6 seasons)
on the bubble: Ike Davis (27, 3 seasons) and Ruben Tejada (24, 3 seasons)
Projected payroll for the projected 2014 roster as of today: 50 to 55 million $
So, even if the 2014 budget is well below the 95 million $ or so apparent official payroll it has been in both 2013 and 2012, there will be plenty of space to take on salary. Even with a mere 85 million $ payroll, you can add 30+ million $ in commitments this upcoming winter. That should buy you two decent outfielders, I suppose. And if the plan works, the team contends in 2014 and leads to rising revenue in 2015. And in that case, instead of an 85 million $ budget, you can boost the 2015 payroll back over 100 million for 2015 and so on if you are able to sustain success. A successful NY MLB franchise can easily handle a 150+ million $ payroll if it wins big.
And to reach that goal, the Mets haven´t added a single free agent who will be on the 2014 books for 3 off-seasons, have traded key veteran players in their 30s, maximizing their values in trades and haven´t traded a single meaningful prospect in over 3 years either – with all due respect to Mike Antonini and Jefrey Marte – neither of which was a Top 25 in the system prospect at the time he was traded. The Mets also haven´t lost a draft pick over that span, instead adding several compensation picks along the way, even with a changing system.
Now, one can certainly question why the value of Jose Reyes wasn´t maximized. Why the evidently half-hearted attempt to remain competitive in those three bridge seasons was mostly uncreative, at least until the 2012/2013 off-season. Why marginal major league veterans instead of intriguing “Moneyball” Quadruple A diamonds in the rough were mostly brought in as roster fillers.
And of course, it remains to be seen whether the drafts will end up being productive or not. Whether the right prospects were acquired in trades or whether you like the apparent organizational philosophy on pitching, hitting and character. It will ultimately decide about the success of this entire rebuilding. But it doesn´t change the fact that the overall plan in all this is pretty obvious and has been implemented quite thoroughly if you look at the big picture. From 2014 on, Wins and Losses will determine whether the wait was worth it or not.
Thank you for the analogy. I was always fascinated by how Bob Ross would start with nothing and end up with something. I never thought about Alderson’s Mets that way but you’re right. Also, Alderson and Ross are/were Vietnam vets so there could just be PTSD-related genius there too.
I liken it to one of the those home remodeling shows on HGTV (my girlfriend is obsessed with them).
They want to remodel the home and bring in the experts. The experts have to tear down a lot of things in order to build it back up better. There are missteps an unwelcome surprises(that English woman on Love It Or List IT seems to find new and exciting structural integrity issues every episode), but since the process is sound and everyone involved is committed, the project gets done and the houses come out looking much better than before.
Love the analogy.
Time will tell if the finished product (is it ever finished? LOL) will turn out the way all expect.
I will say though it’s better than nickle/diming half ass repairs that usually don’t last that long and wind up costing more money in the long run.
I dont know if I’m buying, but I’m certainly not dissatisfied. Does that make sense? I’m willing to give him his 4 years that he asked for and then I’ll decide thumbs up or thumbs down. But I see what’s happening, I think I like the direction, and I hope it all goes as planned. I never expected immediate results and I could never understand the ones that complain about it. This isn’t Cup A Soup – just add boiling water. Really like your optimism, Mitch.
Yes he’s revitalizing an older, near-miss team.. Sandy is doing all the right stuff. Those who hate Sandy are going to be very surprised.
LOL year we went fom NEAR MISS to DEFNITE MISS!
And it only took 2 years!
Because 2009 and 2010 were salad days.
Also, there is a difference between looking good and being good.
Hi Mitch,
You might not have been around to see the guy Bob Ross patterned himself around back in the early days of television.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YIRcQVkTOw
But I too have to disagree with you about Sandy having any plan. When he came on, I don’t believe he looked at the team as he did the payroll. It was not an evaluation of who needed to go or stay based on age, production or trade value but rather who could be replaced with a much less costly player was gone. As we’ve seen, that has been the case with every player sans David Wright (who investment wise is worth in return than the cost of his contract because many season ticket holders who were hesitant to pass judgement on him before would thus see all his moves representative as a return to the Grant era as so many of us believe it is.
I have a friend who has been a supporter of Sandy’s move from the beginning and still is to this day – believing the team needed a complete rebuildng after 2010 and that we needed to stop sacrificing the farm system in terms of either trading prospects or keeping them stuck in the minors at the expense of getting over the hill veterans to win now.
Many of us never saw the Mets in such that bad a position. This is what a possible lineup could have been today had Sandy and his people attempted to retain the players they had – even if that meant trading Dickey to shore up the catching deficit due to having other young arms to hopefully replace him:
Reyes – SS
Pagan – CF
Murphy – 2B
Wright – 3B
Beltran – RF
Davis – 1B
Hairston/Duda – LF
d’Arnaud – C
Starting Rotation: Gee, Neise, Harvey, Marcum – then perhaps Familia, McHugh, Hefner.
Bullpen: Imploded two years in a row – what could have been? Krod , Parnell, Lyon, Rauch, Francisco (in a more comfortable position in middle relief)
Bench: Turner, Tejada, Kirk, Baxter, Cowgil, Duda/Hairston, Buck,
Now, adding to that instead of subtracting from that would have made the second half of 2011 and 2012 a much more happier time with us actually excited about 2013 – not hoping for better times in 2014 and beyond. All we would not have is Wheeler. Imagine who would might have picked up in free agency instead had we been acting like a big market team? The only areas of concern as far as age goes would be Beltran – but he would be in his final year of a two-year contract and therefore not holding up even Valdy from taking over a spot in the outfield if he learned to cover it in Vegas.
Duda/Hairston could very well prove to be a problem as well, but then, it’s up to the GM to try and resolve problems – and not create them instead like we have now.
But that is not the case. Like it or not, we are now in a rebuildng phase with too many a hole that needs to be addressed from outside the system. If we are to go outside the system in earnest (which I doubt personally) then I would actually say that despite three or four years of wandering in the desert that was not at all necessary other than for fiscal restraint (which other big market teams wouldn’t do if they had the personnel we did), we would have a future nevertheless. And a future that at this point looks a lot better in Flushing than it does in the Bronx – even with the proposed roster suggested above.
But again, a plan has to include going outside the system – and I do not see that coming for I still see a large fiscal hole that the Mets have to get themselves out of when including the debt and lost revenue. That’s why the plan is only a half-hearted one, especially seen in terms of the energy that was applied to downsizing and re-structuring the organization, the re-financing and and overall cost-cutting instead.
That is why I would not call what Sandy is doing with the team as a “plan” as I would “measures” that had to be taken on behalf of the owners.
Joey:
“Many of us never saw the Mets in such that bad a position. This is what a possible lineup could have been today”
You cannot do that.
You can’t just piece together a team based on 3 years of circumstances. You can’t say we’d have d’Arnaud if we have Reyes/Pagan. You can’t say we get Marcum today without 3 years of other stuff going on. That’s not reality.
I mean the mere fact you even have Beltran in your lineup is pretty ridiculous. Your way has the Mets payroll in 2013 at what? At least $30million MORE than it is today right? Which is what almost $115mil?
Oh wait you add Hairston and KRod too so what’s that put them at? Almost $120? Does KRod have a job right now? (I’m seriously asking)
You can’t do that. You cannot sit back and pretend the Madoff stuff didn’t have simultaneous to Reyes’ contract negotiation. You cannot pretend KRod could have been paid more money than any position player on the team. You can’t pretend that Pagan in 2012 would have done the same things for NYM that he did for SF.
Focus on 2013 and beyond. If everybody stopped looking back and piecing together rosters like this, maybe they’d enjoy watching kids like TEJADA, Harvey, Wheeler, d’Arnaud with Ike, Wright, and others.
Stop looking at every game as “Beltran would have made that catch.” Because he wouldn’t, you know why? Because he’d have to travel from St. Louis to New York first before even seeing the bat hit the ball.
Hi Jessep,
The post by Mitch was addressing the issue of Sandy having a plan all this time and his being grateful for it. My reply was that what Sandy had was not a plan for putting together a competive team on the field but rather a plan for gettng the Wilpons back on somewhat less shakey ground to retain ownership at the expense of fielding a competitive club.
We all know that if it wasn’t for the Madoff swindle those contracts would not have been a problem – teams today not only get burned by signing players that just don’t produce, they are now in the position that they have to sign players to mutli-year contracts knowing the last year or so is going to be a waste and a financial write-off.
So those were the reasons for my summation that his focus was fiscal, not financial – and that in my opinion, the moves made no baseball sense at all but were quite understandable under the financial situation the Wilpons suddenly found themselves in. Showing the potential team we might had today was to explain there were other quite valid plans that could have been pursued. And what is important to notice is that I was not playing general manger – I didn’t refer to players we could have obtained – I simply referred to those we could have attempted to have retained.
…. And that is why I always use the word “attempt” when it comes to retaining players. If one is going to walk, it would be unfair to blame that on the general manager.
And did I not end my comment with saying that if we begin going outside the organization to fill holes that our future looks brighter than the team playing in my home borough of the Bronx? But that cannot alter what has happened in the past and what could might have possibly been during these past three years. And it is still only your feeling that Beltran wanted to leave the Mets – it is all hypothetical. I’m not saying he would have stayed – but there is no evidence to make it seem his leaving was written in stone. All I was asking for was again – for Sandy to have made an “attempt”.
Well Joey it depends on what you mean by trying to put a competitive team on the field. Is your reasoning that they didn’t sign big free agents?
There are 4 players that people who share your view circle and point to when they make similar statements
- Angel Pagan – Was traded after having his worst career full year in an attempt to fix a massive weakness.
- Jose Reyes – Unfortunately for him he needed a $100mil payday at the same time the owners who have to agree to that were defendants in a $1b lawsuit.
- Carlos Beltran – His time in flushing was up, he netted them a player who could mean more to the Mets for the next 7+ years than Beltran could have meant for the next 2-3 (assuming you wanted him resigned)
- KRod – His trade was more of a release. Look lets be honest. BEFORE the madoff thing blew up, the wilpon’s wanted him gone after the arrest. They threatened to try to void his contract, and they were embarrassed. They had a player in their uniform get arrested in their clubhouse which lead to an injury. There was not a chance in the world the Wilpon’s would pay him $17.5m and not a chance in the world they wanted him around their team when times were going to be tough.
Do I wish Jose Reyes was here? Absolutely. I think he was WORTH the contract he got but I think his deal expired at the wrong time.
Do I think Beltran/Pagan/KRod would have changed anything? No.
I don’t think Pagan would have gotten a 4 year deal after 2012. I don’t think having Beltran on the team in 2012 would have made much of a difference since he had almost the exact same statistical 2nd half drop off that people attack Wright for. I don’t think there was a chance in the world that KRod would be on the Mets in 2012 for $17.5mil.
So what did you want? You cannot deny the financial handcuffs. They existed. He didn’t trade away their young talent. He didn’t give up on guys like Ike when he easily could have. Alderson is the one that gave Dickey his contract first. He took a risk on Dickey and without that contract, Dickey doesn’t have a magical 2012 and doesn’t net TDA.
So what did you want him to do? Fix the OF? So did I, but with who? Bourn? Okay I liked Bourn too but he isn’t going to dramatically change things.
Hi Jessep,
My reasoning is that Sandy came here because he had to straighten out a financial catastrophe and literally save the Wilpons from having to liquidate the team. Don’t hold it against him – that is what he had to do.
Being it was so drastic a situation, trying to field a competitve team became secondary. As I pointed out on that blogger conference call posted a week or so (from December, 2010) Sandy stated very clearly that the Mets had the resources but he simply did not have the flexibility to make roster moves due to certain commitments and not having any further resources to use:
“I wasn’t hired to apply a Moneyball approach to the New York Mets. I would not have accepted the position were I required to run the Mets on a shoestring budget. On the other hand, I did come in with my eyes wide open. I did recognize that there would be some payroll restrictions this year, keeping in mind that when everything’s said and done our payroll will probably be somewhere between 130 and 140 million dollars. We’ll probably be in the top four or five in all of baseball. So, the problem is not that we don’t have resources, the problem is that we have limited additional resources to spend this year. So, what you see today or what you’ve seen over the last two weeks shouldn’t necessarily be representative of what you see over the next two or three years. But we do have to get through a somewhat difficult period from a standpoint of our payroll because we already have most of it committed.”
That sounds a lot different from one who admitted to Mike Francesa last September that the last two years he had no other choice to obtain “inexpensive” players who could “only produce 50%” and knew that the team could not win with those type players. This is also completely opposite from the actions he went on to take.
What more evidence do we need? He did not have the resources to field a team and in fact had to cut back whatever resources he had as much as possible. To go with prospects was the cheapest way to operate a team. Was it the best option he had? Finacially, yes. Baseball wise, absolutely not.
This is why I say Sandymust be seen in terms of a corporate executive running a business and thinking in terms of ledger books. That’s what his expertise and experience has been. And under the circumstances, how could it have been any different?
I agree, there was no other financial choice.
But it also doesn’t mean that the “reset payroll” plan is or was wrong. Even if it was essentially forced on Alderson and the Mets due to the fiancial disstress that hit ownership in various places at almost the same time.
Alderson has gradually broken up an expensive .500 caliber team that had been decimated by injuries and lacked depth.
The next couple of years will show, whether what this front office has done ( and still must do in the upcoming winter) works or not.
The hypothetical roster you mentioned, Joey, easily would have cost an extra 40+ million $ in 2012 and 2013 with the Mets still not projecting for more than 3rd place in the NL East or more than 85 wins in all likelihood. And also create a need for a significant deadline trade in 2012 when Gee and Santana were lost at almost the same time. So, trade Familia and Flores for Paul Maholm or Ryan Dempster last summer ?
Even with no financial issues, this seems like a dangerous plan.
With the current one, the worst case is that you have an inxpensive young mediocre team. With the other, the worst case is a mediocre expensive veteran team without the talent or financial resources for an extended run.
in some ways, it is like tiraging an injured person. If they are bleeding out, your better put tie off the artery to stop the blood, before you evaluate how bad the injuries are, or you won’t have a pateint to worry about.
Actually Joey, this post wasn’t about the success of the plan but merely me expressing how at first I was totally against the plan, similar to when I would watch a bob Ross painting taking shape…within the first ten minutes I had no idea what he was painting…the next 10 minutes everything would start to come together and at the end u had a work of art. I would say comparatively speaking we are about 20m into Aldersons plan, and I’m starting to see things come together. We still don’t know if we will have a work of art at the end or hav e to start with a blank canvass again.
Hi Mitch,
What we disagree on is there being a plan at all. Yes, now there is a plan in shape but it did not evolve from some sort of master planning from the beginning on how to best field a team that could be competive both now and in the future.
And at this point, as mentioned, if the plan going into 2014 still has to be within the strict financial confines of the past two seasons, then it’s more a plan of survival for the owners than improvement for the team. Remember, San Francisco, Washington, Cincinnati and Detroit – had plans to get themselves up from being losers and started taking the steps with both from developing from within and acquring from outside the organization. Some steps failed, others didn’t. Detroit went from 42 wins to the world series in three seasons because they obtained good players to go with the kids that were obviously quite raw in 2003 and not deveoped enough in 2005 to finish any better than 71-91.
So even though I agree a rebuilding plan is now in place – though set in motion out of default – I am afraid that it is still only a half-hearted one.
My anger toward Sandy is more in resentment from the double-talk and less than being honest with fans as we saw from the attached quote in my reply to Jessep. I understand why he had to make the moves he did. What I don’t understand is that after all this time, so many see him in regards to baseball as a competitive sport instead of baseball as a financially competitive business and attribute to him having the professinal knowledge to build a team based on his professional baseball management resume being that of statistical analysis and an “observer”.
Again, name a single move that has happened since late 2010 that has contradicted the general idea of resetting the payroll for 2014 and building a team that’s ready to compete then.
Sure there have been mistakes, most of all not maximizing Reyes’ value, trading Pagan for almost nothing, wasting money on FF or eliminating the GCL club.
But the overall idea is pretty obvious and has been for a while.
Eliminating the GCL club wasn’t even a mistake.
The farm system still isn’t so deep that dropping what is essentially a complex team that travels means a lot. Especially when the Mets still had more minor league clubs than the vast majority of the league.
an often overlooked point is that the Mets had the most MiL teams of any club (tied with IIRC 2 others), and even after getting rid of that GCL club, they still had more than at least 1/2 of all ML clubs.
also one of the few I think with 2 DSL teams?
and even when they got rid of it, most of the guys that would have been on it were still in PSL training, they just did scrimmages basically instead of drving around playing other clubs development level teams.
HI DrD.,
Of course, except for David, no move of Sandy’s has contradicted the general idea of resetting the payroll for 2014. But according to what he said in December, 2010, that was not his plan.
“I did recognize that there would be some payroll restrictions this year, keeping in mind that when everything’s said and done our payroll will probably be somewhere between 130 and 140 million dollars. We’ll probably be in the top four or five in all of baseball. So, the problem is not that we don’t have resources, the problem is that we have limited additional resources to spend this year.”
- now we know that was his plan all along – focusing on the cost and not the product by admitting he went after signing “inexpensive” players he knew he couldn’t win with. If he was not being honest with us at that time, why should we suddenly believe what he says now? His actions contradict his words.
Hi Joey D.,
I don´t think Alderson was aware that the financial situation would be that bad in late 2010.
Yet, the general idea probably was the same. But Alderson probably believed that he´d have more flexibility for 2012 and 2013. That´s assuming that the talk about a 110 to 115 million $ payroll in 2012 wasn´t PR BS from the getgo.
Something certainly changed during the 2011 season. And Reyes may have been a casualty in all of this. Because the Reyes´ contract – while certainly risky based on Reyes´ history – was absolutely in line with what the market value should have been compared to others and certainly not excessive. Giving Reyes that sort of contract should have been possible – but maybe the Picard case, higher than expected operating losses in 2011 and the general state of the Wilpon estate at that time led to the budget shrinking from 110 to 95 million. And thus sealed Reyes´ departure. In any case, losing Reyes for very little is the one big mistake Alderson has made during his tenure so far. And even if Kevin Plawecki and Matt Reynolds become impact major leaguers, it´ll still be the case of not maximizing the value of a player.
As for David Wright, he just turned 30 in December and is an athletic 3bman. Please take a look at the free agent classes of 2013/2014 and 2014/2015 and tell me which available hitter(s) you´d like to add if you had 15 to 25 million $ to spend on such a player or two.
Unless you want to bid with the Yankees for Robinson Cano – who is a higher risk than Wright to age poorly as a middle infielder btw – there wasn´t not going to be another bat of Wright´s caliber available in those classes. Heck, as it is, the Mets will need to fill three outfield positions going forward. And while I do believe Wilmer Flores will be a fine major league hitter, what if the vast majority of scouts is right on him and he´s “merely” a .275 BA 15 HR, .325 OBP, .450 SLG type major league bat ? Certainly a solid piece but not a bat you´re penciling into the 3rd or 4th slot of your lineup going forward. Fact is, corner position players historically have aged the best. Usually well into their mid, sometimes even late 30s. So, if you´re willing to give a longterm contract to a player who turns 30, you give it to a 3bman or 1bman based on historical evidence. And if that 3bman happens to be the face of the franchise & fan favorite, it adds another element. And if that contract is probably 20 million or so below what the player would probably get on the open market, you do it.
Oh, and by the way (though Metsie pointed it out), while FF seems like a waste of money, his signing has zero impact on the 2014 payroll.
And on a final note, as of today, the Mets will be entering the 2013/2014 off-season with a 40-man roster that features exactly one player (Wright) who already has celebrated his 30th birthday. The projected payroll for 2014 – as of today – is somewhere in the 50 to 55 million $ range if you´re bringing everybody back who isn´t eligible for free agency next winter. Even with a further decline in attendance in 2013, that´ll finally give SA the leverage to spend next off-season. Be it via free agency or in trades.
Hi DrD.,
The question of how much Sandy knew and when has been debated often but notice the inconsistencies in the hypothetical answers to that question when those like myself introduce more pieces of evidence?
In my past comments on this, I went into detail to point out the catastrophic change of events regarding the Mets financial situation as a result of the Madoff situation in late 2008 and up to the hiring of Sandy and asked the question of how Sandy could not have been aware of the desperate situation he was getting himself into.
So many replied that he did not know of the situation, inferring that the Wilpons and Selig were not completely being frank with him beforehand. Now, it’s not just that information was held back during the interviewing process (which is odd that with the Wilpons facing such financial trouble they would not want to vet him intensely to determine if he was the correct individual to help them resolve their problem – which would mean opening up enough of the books to him to answer their questions) but that Alderson was now aware that the financial situation could be that bad a year later.
Lets go by what we do know now:
- The financial situation as it was then, which included not just the present situation but the upcoming near billion dollars in loans that ,due to the loss of Madoff money, the Mets were suddenly unprepared to pay back.
- The commissioner fully aware of the above and admitting he had taken steps to help the Wilpons not done with other owners facing the same problems in the past (Los Angeles, Texas and Montreal).
- The financial situation had gotten to the point that Mets did not have the money to meet operating expenses in October and financial institutions were no longer giving them further loans because they were (and still are, in fact) deemed too risky. Because of that, the Commissioner had to step in where he had not done so with others before (the above point).
- That action by the commissioner was taken the same month (October) that Sandy was interviewing for the job.
- Sandy was not interested in the job and loved what he was doing on behalf of MLB with the Dominican Republic.
- It was the commissioner who urged Sandy to seek the job of Mets GM.
Now, other things that we also know:
- So much of the Mets financial problems were being reported in the financial media already.
- The Mets were heavily invested and had made at least a billion dollars in profit through Madoff. Irving Picard had already been appointed trustee for the victims and taking major steps to recoup as much as he can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovery_of_funds_from_the_Madoff_investment_scandal#Irving_Picard.2C_Trustee
- In July of 2010 the Mets were already sued (I believe) independently for recovery of lost pension funds.
So at first it was contested that Sandy was unaware of how extreme the Mets financial problems were before he took over the job. Now, DrD., instead of not just being fully aware of the financial circumstances up to that point, you extend it by theorizing “I don´t think Alderson was aware that the financial situation would be that bad in late 2010.”.
Now, this is where many of us begin differing on assumptions.
1) As fans we were already aware of the severity of the situation from what was reported in layman’s terms. Sandy Alderson is no fan – he is a lawyer and corporate CEO and extremely qualified – more so than most others – to understand and appreciate what was even just publicly reported way more than we would. Being that astute legal mind and that corporate executive, he could easily decipher that and deduce what was happening by both the available figures, his knowledge of the corporate world and the steps he saw the Mets taking during 2009 and 2010.
2) Being urged so hard by the Commissioner to take over a job after telling Selig he had no desire to leave his current position that he loved so much – along with having no interest in the Mets GM opening and his own knowledge of the situation – it is hard to conclude that Sandy did not demand to know what was going on that would cause Bud Selig to push him so strongly toward considering that position.
3) Again, being the lawyer and CEO and after knowing officially the extent of the severity of the Mets financial situation as he took over the job (including that $25 million bailout) he was not blind to the situation regarding Madoff and not unable to anticipate on top of the financial mess they were in what the Mets could be facing due to the organization’s heavy involvement with Madoff and the overall $50 billion being sought by Picard.
4) And again, even without Piccard hanging over the shoulders of the Mets, Sandy was aware of their inability to meet their monthly financial obligations, the loans that were forthcoming and that their credit was non-existent with financial institutions no longer conducting further business with them in terms of loans or re-financing in fear of the team defaulting on their future payments.
5) When spring training opened in late February of 2011, Sandy was still telling the media that the Madoff situation had no affect on the way he could conduct business in his capacity of Mets general manager. That was now four full months into the job and nearly three months after Picard filed his civil suit against the Wilpons.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703296604576005672465685298.html
6) The Mets had lost $70 million in 2011. Sandy had already projected losses for 2012 and now with 2013. Irrelevant of the Madoff situation, how – after two months into the job – could he have he not foreseen losses for 2011 while publicly claiming the Mets were on steady financial ground? How could he not conclude – being aware of the financial situation at that time – that these losses would not sink the Mets further into a financial hole? How could he claim it wasn’t a matter not having the money to retain the current roster payroll but rather not having the “additional” resources to spend at that time which would be resolved once the Mets disposed of the contractual obligations after 2011?
Taking these six points into consideration and still hypothesizing “I don´t think Alderson was aware that the financial situation would be that bad in late 2010.”only concludes that he must be a bigger dope than I am.
Is he?
Wright, Francisco, the attempt at Bourn (half Hearted as it was)
You seem to think resetting the payroll has some positive impact on 2014…
If 2014 was that close then why did we trade away a Cy Young Pitcher?
Dickey is gone because the Mets realized that they were able to get a major haul for him, of similar value to getting a couple of top 5 overall June draft picks that would strengthen their longterm talent base significantly.
d´Arnaud will be the 2014 starting C and cost 0,5 million as a 25-year-old, under team control for 6 years.
Dickey will be 39 1/2 in 2014 and would have cost between 10 to 12 million, under team control for a couple of years.
Plus you have another Top 50 overall prospect in Syndergaard and a nice lottery ticket in Becerra who may either help in future years or turn into prime trade bait.
So if the goal is a sustainable run for several years, this is a trade that 30 out of 30 mlb GMs would have made without even thinking about it in the Mets position.
There’s one serious flaw in your argument. The Mets didn’t have the money to keep players like Beltran and Reyes. You can’t blame Alderson for that. That’s on Minaya for the ridiculous contracts he gace Perez, Bay, Castillo, etc. and the Madoff issue.
You have to admit that bad timing played a part in where we are today. When you have Castillo, Bay, Perez, Johan, KRod all making large sums of guaranteed money and for the most part underperforming pair that with a $1billion lawsuit being potentially litigated throughout the offseason and you have a disaster for any mlb franchise.
If Madoff never happened and the Mets weren’t bogged down with bad contracts, Jose Reyes would be in PSL today.
But again, the saying “stuff” happens exists for a reason… because it does. If Wright needed a $100m contract when Reyes did, I believe he wouldn’t be here either.
The past won the Mets nothing. So stop looking at the past with googly eyes and talking about what could have been. It’s done. It’s 2013.
Hi true,
On the contrary, the Mets did have the money to to keep those players or dispose of them and seek out others to replace them. Again, it’s what Sandy said in that conference call in December, 2010 regarding restrictions he had in 2011 ony;
“I did recognize that there would be some payroll restrictions this year, keeping in mind that when everything’s said and done our payroll will probably be somewhere between 130 and 140 million dollars. We’ll probably be in the top four or five in all of baseball. So, the problem is not that we don’t have resources, the problem is that we have limited additional resources to spend this year.”
“Limited additional resources” was what he told us he did not have in 2011. He referred to payroll restrictions as the cause of that. What he emphasized was that “the problem is not that we don’t have resources”.
Yes, the opening day payroll for the Mets in 2011 was approximately $120.1 million. A year later it was down to $93.4 million. He was no longer tied down in roster spots and roster payroll with Reyes, Beltran, KRod, Castillo and Perez. There was still that $27 million remaining in resources he did still have after signing Francisco that could have been used to shore up the bullpen further and obtain a good outfielder capable of playing center. Reyes was offset by Tejada so shortstop was not a problem. Duda was penciled in for right so even though he was not going to carry the bat of Beltran, we all thought he was going to hit for power, so that was not a problem, either.
That $27 million wasn’t even used in 2012 as Sandy said it would be.
OK, one could argue that when Sandy spoke in 2010 it was before the team lost $70 million the upcoming season. Also, the civil suit had yet to have been filed. Granted. But then, what about the circumstances fact that he already knew – that the Mets had no working capital left to meet their monthly expenses and had to get a loan from MLB – because no financial institution would give them any more credit. Or that the annual returns from Madoff had stopped a year before that? And that without their half-billion investment with Madoff plus the loss of those monthly returns (again, an estimated $80 million per season) along with the Mets having run out money that the team had close to a billion dollars in loans that they would soon have to pay off.
So it was more than just Sandy not being honest with us at that time – it was the case of him going out of his way to paint a completely opposite picture of what we now know was the actual state of affairs.
So even though we know it to be true, when it is stated that the Mets didn’t have the money to either keep – or replace – Beltran, KRod or Reyes and even Pagan – we must remember that was not what Sandy was saying in December, 2010. So why should he be trusted when told his vision is to re-build the club for long-term success instead of looking at things in terms of just one big and continuous salary dump – regardless if one wins the batting title or Cy Young award.
So many are concerned about Duda not coming back this year, Davis still hitting under .250 and Gee recovering fully from his blood clot. I would be more concerned about the opposite – Duda busting out with power, Davis having a break out year and Gee really picking it on the mound. They will command a lot more money in arbitration. Are we to believe that finances – after two straight years of losing money and the franchise projected to lose more again in 2013 – be any different? Must we also not remember that in order for the Mets to have cut down their fiscal losses this past year – and to reduce the projected losses this season that they had to cut their roster payroll and all non-baseball operations quite drastically.
So if the above mentioned players have great seasons, will Sandy have the money to pay them what they could get through arbitration or does he then trade them too? My hunch is that they will obviously not be traded, however, those holes we have in the outfield and bullpen will still be there coming next spring.
That’s why many of us contend Sandy has no real plan for re-building the team as it is just having as many kids and inexpensive players as possible and hoping somehow that the mixture can produce something.
Again, do a projection of the 2014 roster today – and you end up with a 50 to 55 million $ payroll. That´s already including arbitration for Ike Davis, Daniel Murphy, Dillon Gee, Ruben Tejada, Bobby Parnell and heck, even Lucas Duda. Also, add the 10+ extra million each MLB team receives starting in 2014 and the Mets should at least be able to sport an 80 to 85 million $ or so payroll in 2014 and break even as an isolated entety. And the Wilpons can pocket all their huge gains from SNY and spend it on helicopters. And this means Alderson can spend 30 million $ next winter on new players he brings in.
Assuming the 2014 team is able to contend – which is part of the plan, I suppose – that means that attendance and thus revenue should rise again to allow for a higher budget in 2015 – and thus open up more payroll space. Again, let alone SNY gains. Just because you´ve decided to split up SNY, Citifield and the Mets into three different enteties also shouldn´t mean that you can´t view those three companies as one financially. Because they´re very much dependant on each other.
For example:
Option 1:
Mets lose 10 million and win 75 games
Citifeld loses 40 million
SNY- Wilpon / Katz share gains 50 million
net gain: break even
Option 2:
Mets lose 25 million and win 90 games
Citifield loses 40 million
SNY – Wilpon / Katz share gains 75 million
net gain: 10 million
Which business model do you prefer ?
Of course, there´s also Option 3:
Mets lose 70 million and win 80 games
Citifield loses 40 million
SNY – Wilpon / Katz share gains 60 million
net loss: 50 million
Option 3 probably isn´t sustainable. Still, it means you cannot truely isolate these three enteties from one another. They very much depend on each other. And you need to find a business model where the goal at least needs to be “break even” if you view these operations as a whole. I´m not aware of the exact numbers. But all I know is that a) the Wilpons´ just received another 150 million $ loan during their latest restructuring of SNY debt while paying the same monthly rates, benefiting from low interest rates and b) that the Mets will receive an extra 10+ million annually, starting in 2014 from the new National TV deal which almost doubles what MLB franchises will receive and are in parts to blame for the salary explosion this winter.
At the same time, the Mets have reset their 2014 payroll to a level where even as an isolated entety, the Wilpons would probably make significant gains.
A better title and article would be “Lets watch and see if there is a Metophisis” and then judge Sandy. By next year this time it would be fair to write a report card. 2013 to benchmark review (if progress without financial jeopody) 2014 payroll flexibility, FA signed or not signed, and any trades made. Let’s not forgot who he chooses to be manager.
basically everything alderson has done has been good, except for trading away angel pagan.
SA getting practically nothing for Jose Reyes was his biggest sin. Andres Torres and right-hander Ramon Ramirez for a disenchanted Pagan seemed fair at the time. Pagan was revitalized in SF.
You do not know what was offered for Reyes and how much better it was than the draft pick they would have lost by trading him.
And…..no one ever mentions the fact that Reyes got hurt in early July that year. Sure, he could have traded him in June. However, once he was hurt, the Mets lost all the leverage. It was the exact opposite scenario to the Beltran deal. Beltran was healthy and tearing up the league. It was a perfect confluence of events.
Matt: The wrong time to trade him when as SA says was when he became a “rental”. I maintained from the start of ST 2011 that once Reyes showed he was physically sound to extend him or trade him. Reyes made it clear that he did not want to negotiate once the season started. You also failed to mention that once Reyes was going for NY Mets first batting title they did not want to trade him. However, ST after proven physically sound (SA said he wanted to observe him as he just became GM prior Nov.) a decision one way or the other i.e. extend or trade had to be made.
The best bet would have been to trade him in June.
During a batting tittle run?
The batting title run is not relevant
I think it was in this case. He was injured at the deadline and had no real trade value. The masses wanted to see a batting chase, so he was worth more to the Mets fighting for that than he was on the market. If he was healthy and could bring in a haul, then the batting race would have been irrelevant.
Hey guys SA’s excuse is Reyes was “Rental” and would not bring in much. That is why my original point that during ST 2011 after Reyes proved healthy he either should have been traded as R.A. or extended as DW.
As a matter of fact SA later admitted he was wrong with Reyes (box of chocolates) and said he would look to trade or extend Dickey and not wait until he and DW were FA.
yeah all that money for Francisco & Rauch was awesome too. His influence on the bullpen and outfield has been tremendous
You really should look at other teams to follow. If the Mets make you that miserable, you probably be better off rooting for St. Louis. I don’t think I have ever read one post by you that was in a positive light. Either its a big act or you are one miserable person.
And i you like a team who doesn’t spend, doesn’t win is in a constant state of rebuilding and playing ti win 4 years from now….
Might I suggest the Pirates?
You, sir, are what Rey Ordonez was talking about.
I know I know but it still seems absurd that a club like the Mets in a big market keeps the best catcher in the system in the minors for what amounts to 4 additional months of control 6 years down the road.
That’s the way the game is played. Has nothing to do with markets. Everyone plays it that way.
Some of us bought into it a long time ago.
I agree with Mitch here. I too am starting to buy into sandy’s plan..
I laughed. Well played.
However it’s your line in the sand.
I will say this, the difference between Nieuwenhuis at the plate and d”Arnaud, was fascinating, yeah sure d’Arnaud is a righty and all, but clearly the pitcher was cautious in a way that was different from the likes of Kirk, and Brown, and even Baxter. d’Arnaud can hit and everyone, whether via scouting report or just by looking at him, knows it. This kid, far as I can tell, is the real deal.
Watching Cowgill Valdespin and d’Arnaud last night rustle up a rally felt different somehow, I know it’s only spring training but I got the sense these guys were going to end up scoring a lot of runs for us.
And another thing, I think it’s damned foolish to start d’arnaud in AAA, he’s the best catcher in the system right now, he should be starting for the big club.
$$$$ keeps d’Arnaud in AAA. Has to stay there at least until May to save a year of arbitration eligibility.
Keeping him in AAA for two months is smart baseball. One more year of team control. Or, better said, one more year until you have to offer him a longterm extension and keep him with the Mets for years.
It´s all about leverage. And since nobody believes that the 2013 Mets are going to the playoffs, might as well gain leverage with d´Arnaud & Wheeler longterm – besides having them better prepared. It´s smart business. Plus it probably gives us more time to assess Anthony Recker and Jeremy Hefner
Jessep, are you provoking me!?!?!?!
If me giving you kudos for a well times and played joke is provoking you then yes.
If it’s me acknowledging that you made me laugh which I assume your intent was to make a joke – then no.
Relax.
I suggest you respect my comments from now on, since MMO is now a fox affiliate Joe d said he’s no longer will be tolerating people who provoke and/or bait others, do not comment towards my comments as I have no wish or any interest to talk baseball with you since you most of the time have no idea what you’re talking about, all that comes from you engaging me is a situation I do not wanna be in, I do hope Joe d speak with you about this, since you’re trying to bait me and provoke me I hope he’s true to his words of banning anyone doing this. I hope his rule also applies to the immortals as well.
Alex: If me complimenting your attempt at humor is the worst thing that happens to you today, then you had an amazing day.
But send your email to GetMetsMerized@aol.com and be sure to include where I said I laughed at your joke and it was well played because that type of “insult” would bring new meaning to the word insult.
thanks for commenting and have a great day
GET OFF THE GUY’S BACK! YOU ARE TRYING TO INSTIGATE HIM!
Since jessup is now being an honest person tell us jessup in all honesty how much tdo you get paid to be a puppet? Is it really worth it to be known by everyone as someone elses man for a few bucks or a few tix?
Oh Padilla – where are your friends now that cry foul about instigating?
I don’t need to send no email, you were obviously provoking me, all I did was said I agree with Mitch, then of course, you came in and try to somehow diminish what I said by saying it was a joke, I don’t need to send emails, according to Joe d hes now judge, jury and executioner, let’s see if that only applies to us and not his immortals, he’s missed all the other times where you’ve been the instigator and lets you roam free around here, let’s see if he’s true to his words about people instigating and provoking others
It’s unbelievable Alex,
I can see how you completely changed your tone in your typing already. It’s like night and day and I give you credit because I couldn’t change that quickly overnight.
And there is that BUM STILL trying to instigate, follow you around, and cause trouble. And this is the exact thing Joe D said he would ban people for. Ban jessep NOW. This is a BLATANT attempt to stir the pot by him. Alex is clearly trying his best to change.
Look who’s trying to start a fight now. Just don’t reply to each other’s comments.
you’re speaking to the wrong person kid. Next time address the right person, the one I mentioned.
Not just addressing you Bayonne. Can’t we all just get along? lol
Alex68: I’ll say this. Being 100% honest, I thought you were joking. As somebody who is open about their borderline hatred for Sandy Alderson for the last 3 years – I found your comment that you are “buying in” to his “plan” as a very well timed and played joke based on your history on the subject. My comment was a quick attempt at acknowledging that I appreciated your light hearted comment and humor.
If you’re telling me it was not a joke, that’s cool. I apologize to you for thinking it was and appreciating it for being one.
If it was a joke, then relax. I was merely giving you a tip of the cap for a quality joke.
Maybe I should’ve asked Joe d if all that executioner talk applied for his writers as well.. 4 years straight that guy has been getting away with murder, and no matter how many emails have been sent about him, Joe d seems to always turn the other way.
Bayonne, where’s maniac!? Is he around!?!?
Yeah he’s here. He commented a few times yesterday and get this…his son is starting up a small blog-like site with a shoutbox/chatroom where we can go for game day chats. And Maniac will be in charge of it!!!
I love the idea and told Maniac please let me know when it’s up!
Is it:
http://www.miserablemetsfansunitetogripeabouteverythingtheorganizationdoesbutclaimwearethetruemetfansandanyonewhodisagreeswithusknowsnothingaboutbaseball.com
Home of fair and balanced NY Mets analysis!
Bayonne, great!!!! That’d be awesome, by the way, anyone watching the game?? Niese 3 innings and no runs allowed.
yeah i have it on while working and good for Niese. I noticed that Turner is again at 2B while Jordanny is DH. I just don’t get it.
Hey Alex and Bayonne I’m still here, and you guys know I’m a CPA and this is the time of the year where I’m swamped with work until tax day.
Alex my friend, Bayonne is correct, a reptile-free some is coming to a Mets website near you!
I will have plenty of anti-venom on hand and it will be all out, anything goes like it used to be.
It will be before the games that count start and I hope Joe D. will give us a plug and some support the way we always did for him in the early years.
That should say REPTILE-FREE ZONE!!!!
I’m on board with the plan, but I also think this plan has an expiration date. I’m happy with the moves thus far, but by next Spring we need to see some significant changes, if the OF remains a weak spot going into next season, then the FA needs to be tapped.
I was never enamored with Michael Bourn and certainly not for 4 years with an option.
Byrd and Cowgill will be decent stopgaps but not the answer. I think Byrd will be an everyday guy and Cowgill and Kirk will platoon.
Happy with the moves. Really? Is this a mis statement? Are you happy with ALL the moves.? Are you happy with a roster filled with AAAA players? Or are you happy with the fact that he got rid of every star caliber player on the team except for Mr goody goody who decided to sell out to Wilpon for the magic paycheck in return for 2 guys who have HoF PR from Alderson’s lackies and have yet to see a real big league game? Are you happy with a losing seasons every year? Are you happy that the great one built a party pavillion so his loyal followers could go to the city dump to get drunk and ignore the game they pay rip off prices to see? Or are you a Chuck Cannon fan who would rather be happy than right?
I posted my thoughts, what part do you not understand?
I think people get too hung up on the word “plan”. To me, a plan implies step by step, A to Z. Something which no GM can lay out in advance, since you never know exactly what is going to happen with any one player or move.
So, consider it a concept or framework. With continuous improvement (adjustments) along the way to address needs.
You can’t run a team with blinders on, but you do have to run it within your $ constraints, and with an eye on the big picture of where your talent is on the development spectrum.