17
2013
Featured Post: Alderson’s Plan is Growing the Mets Fresh from the Vine
An article by 
If you have a problem with Sandy Alderson, you have a problem with Major League Baseball. The Mets, as of 2010, have been essentially an MLB operation under virtual MLB oversight with Sandy Alderson a de facto appointee. His job, presiding over this financial and organizational overhaul, has one purpose — to facilitate profitability. That is why he was sent to Queens. Bud Selig does not care about Met fans, he doesn’t give a rat’s patooty about you or me or Paulie from Whitestone who has been attending Mets games since 1962.
We have to remember that the Mets are a business and a franchise, that while their “brand” is the New York Mets, they also represent MLB and they were not about to allow the National League’s Gotham City franchise to sink into bankruptcy. No way, no how.
Alderson’s mission, was not to create a winning product in New York or to bring a World Series to Flushing, his mission was to put the NY Mets organization back on the path to profitability. That’s it, nothing else. Many of us lament the fact that Alderson let established stars depart, that he’s failed to exploit free agency — but these may very well be obsolete paradigms. Free agency is going to be greatly diminished in the coming years.
The most successful teams will be the teams who can develop a steady stream of talent from their minor league systems. Small market operations will get a leg up by utilizing legal devices designed to help them secure elite talent in the draft. Revenue sharing dollars for big markets? Gone. The practicality of the mid-season trade? History. What Alderson has essentially done is adapted the Mets to life under the new CBA ahead of just about every other major league club, while relegating almost a third of the 2014 budget to the “available but untapped” column.
If there is a benefit to having an MLB insider running our team, this is it. The Mets are going to be supremely adapted to life under current MLB operational parameters. You don’t like how the Mets have done business over the past few years? Get used to it, the Player’s Association signed a 5 year deal. Even the Yankees are scaling back and reassessing their approach.
Now I ask you this, what would be better, to adapt to these changes ahead of time (and ahead of other teams) or (like the Nats did in 2011) to take one last shot at using the old paradigm’s flexibility? If you aren’t currently in a position to contend I think the more prudent approach is the former.
Alderson is not a player acquisition guy, he’s not a “baseball” guy … he’s a businessman and a lawyer. His job has been to overhaul the organization, to build a “lattice” if you will, one that will support the systems and operations (the vines) necessary to produce a quality on-field product (the fruit). The grape vine analogy is a good one because it demonstrates how far removed from the players Alderson really is. It’s really Paul DePodesta and J.P. Ricciardi who are in charge of the players — in fact it’s the scouts assembling the aggregate performance data and writing the detailed reports who do the “target acquisition” legwork.
Alderson’s job was to rebuild this lattice, to restructure finances in support of the team’s systems and operations so the team could again make money. That’s it, that’s all he’s had to do. Slash, burn, and redistribute with a focus on the minors. That’s all he did in San Diego and that’s pretty much all he’s doing here. Does that make him a hatchet man? Maybe, if that’s what you want to call it.
Recently Alderson was asked whether his conversation with Johan Santana had “cleared the air,” whereupon he described a more nuts-and-bolts discussion, saying it centered on Santana’s workout plan.
“If that was clearing the air, that was clearing the air, I guess,” Alderson said.
He’s a bitter pill, I’ll admit, but a necessary one nevertheless. Nobody expects veteran players to like him, especially now that he has the legal framework to offset their worth by hugely increasing the value of cheap under control prospects. Do you think he cares that veteran players don’t like him? Do you think he’s worried that free agents might not want to come to NY? Is he acting like it? I don’t think he gives a damn. I think he’s seen the future and investing heavily in pricey veterans isn’t a big part of it. Who is going to win this tussle between veteran interests and Ownership? Baseball is a young man’s game and Alderson is not out to win any popularity contests. That’s not why he’s here. He’s here to fix the Mets structurally.
Whether or not the Mets win now or later really doesn’t matter in this respect. GM’s come and go, some are good and some stink. If DePo and Ricciardi stink and the Mets don’t succeed in the short term, well then hopefully they’ll be replaced by someone better. But the structure, the lattice, remains. If that structure is well-adapted, profitable, self-sustaining, then it will make any GM’s job that much easier. Think of it this way, what GM in his right mind wouldn’t want to run a team with a solid core of young inexpensive players, a vastly improved farm system stocked with a ton of quality pitching, and 40 million in spending money for 2014?
A quality farm promises to remain the primary feeder of major league talent for any successful organization, as such, the importance of its success is not just paramount, it is incalculable. Mitch Petanick in his article yesterday, pointed out how the Mets have some of the finest right-handed pitching prospects in the Minors. Our Florida State League A-ball affiliate (a big performance marker for our current front office strictly in terms of player turnover) last year went to their league championship with by far the best pitching and lowest ERA in their league. There is a wave of pitching heading our way that is larger and more promising than “Gen-K.” Matt Harvey and Zack Wheeler are just the beginning.
Fan support can be fickle, Met fans can be temperamental and impatient, we’ve had so much disappointment it’s hard to see a silver lining even when it’s obvious, but it’s hard not to feel good about the pitching heading our way and the amount of financial flexibility this team is going to enjoy come 2014.
I have a feeling we’re going to look back on Sandy Alderson’s tenure as a huge turning point.
About the Author: Matthew Balasis
I’ve been a Met fan since August 1969 when a fire resulted in the Red Cross placing my family on the 6th floor of a building in Willets Point. I could see Shea from our balcony and I knew something big was going on. I followed them through the dark years and the resurgence of the 80’s only (sadly) to miss the fall of 86 because I was in Boot Camp. I've been serving penance ever since in Minnesota where I'm an SLP. I've written a lot about the Mets in an effort to share with my kids (and anyone else who might listen), a sporting tradition that made much of my childhood worthwhile. Follow me on twitter: https://twitter.com/MatthewBalasis
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 30 | .583 | - |
| Phillies | 35 | 37 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Nationals | 34 | 36 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Mets | 27 | 40 | .403 | 12.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 48 | .314 | 19.0 |
Last updated: 06/19/2013
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Be careful. Your column was not nearly emotional enough for this crew. Calm, rational minds are not the majority on this site. Liked the column. Even having 40 mill next year does not mean we spend it all. That is what I like best. Give Omar a bag of candy canes and he ate them all. The long term contract to the the 30 and up “star” has to be avoided, no matter who it is. People who tell you that you can sign a guy knowing the last few years of a contract wiill be detrimental to the team (see A-Rod) are just engaged in voodoo economics. Alderson is putting together a professional organization. His job is made that much harder by the fact that he works for a couple of pinheads.
Who cares. I mean wake me up when we start talking about the Major Legue Team and not the minor leagues.
“The long term contract to the the 30 and up “star” has to be avoided, no matter who it is.”
except when its David Wright…
yes…that was a mistake and I said it at the time. but let’s be real—you know that was a Wilpon call. Pinheads.
What you feel to realize is that Omar operated under the old system. I suppose Omar pulled Harvey out of his hat and that’s all the magic he had. I disagree with some who think Minaya was great but he was good enough to make out team competitive. Find someone else to use as your Piñata.
What long term contract did Omar give to players over 30? Santana was 28 when he was signed. Carlos Beltran was 27 when he was signed. Long term (5 years +) is the theme here. Three and four year contracts are not long term.
I made the statement about Omar after I commented on our not having to spend 40 mill just because it was there. Omar always spent everything he had on hand. I was not talking about Omar signing guys over 30. I was talking about a sound philiosophy for the future of baseball organizations.
” Omar always spent everything he had on hand. ”
and that resulted with the mets breaking attendance records in 3 of his first 4 years.
Omar with a HS diploma sold more tickets than JP / DePo / and Sandy put togther
And yet it did not result in a winning team. So… your point means nothing. If all you care about is selling tickets you’re in the wrong business my friend.
They won more than the current team has the past two years didn’t they?
The Mets had the most wins in the NL from 2006-2008, broke attendance records for 3 years straight…but somehow thats now winning…
if the mets make the playoffs but not the NLCS, they are not winning
if the mets make the NLCS, but not the WS, they are not winning
If the mets make the WS, but dont win, they are not winning
the bar of excellence is raised for certain folks u dont like and lowered for those u do
Sandy’s big asset was being the “adult in the room” and he has done nothing but stick his foot in his mouth more times in 2 years than Omar did in 6.
He just does it with a better vocabulary
LOL .. Those 3 years were the LAST 3 years of Shea. That’s the major reason why the attendance records were broken. Those 3 years happened to also be the last 3 years of the old Yankee Stadium, and the Yankees broke all attendance records those 3 years too. Just a coincidence? I think NOT.
Yes, because being in 1st place almost ALL year had nothing to do with it !
Citifield looked like a graveyard in August of 2009 while Yankee Stadium was still rocking into October
hmmmmm I wonder why….
Of course being in first place had something to do with it, but the Yankees for most of that decade were in first place every year but it was ONLY the last 3 years at Yankee Stadium that they broke attendance records. That’s the point.
If simply being in first place was the ticket, then you would have had the Yankees breaking attendance every year. Including last year.
And as far as being in first place, the Mets paid a heavy price for being highly competitive from 2006-2007. The price being mortgaging the future and neglecting the farm system.
… that should read 2006-2008
nope…yankee attendance records started to break almost every year from 1999-2008…so it actually stretched back TEN years….not 3….
winning = increased attendance
omar won
omar brought the fans in
thats why he was extended at the end of the 2008 season….after ANOTHER COLLAPSE
4 years of breaking attendance records and record profits will do that for u
The point still stands that the 3 biggest years in the entire history of Yankee Stadium were 2006-08. Because people flocked to see the last days of the stadium. Just like they did with Shea. So, just like with Yankee Stadium, that was a big contributing factor to why the Mets set attendance records 2006-08.
And, as I already said, yes, of course winning has to do with it too. But those stadiums would have done very well those years regardless, because it was their last days.
As for winning, Omar had tens of millions of dollars to spend every winter his first few years to buy expensive free agents. Unlike what Sandy got. Which was virtually nothing his first few winters. So Omar was able to field a winner fast. Unfortunately he paid a heavy price for that. He did it the wrong way. His pricey quick fixes and fat back-loaded contracts created a bloated roster mess that Sandy was left to deal with. They won’t get completely out from under that till 2014.
Matthew – thank you for giving ink to the most important sea-change this organization’s experienced since the day’s of Frank Cashen.
As my brother, tlagee, will attest, since 2002 I have ALWAYS wanted the Mets to build from the ground-up – to hoard young talent, re-build the farm system and build a machine that would feed the MLB club in perpetuity. There’s a value to organizational integrity in baseball that cannot be statistically measured:
- incentive at the minor league level that you may someday attain the parent club, rather than become trade fodder as part of a package deal for someone who earned their reputation elsewhere.
- the long-term benefit of retaining your own draft choices, which creates a sense of identity throughout the organization.
- fostering a greater a sense of responsibility in developing your own ball players, rather than sitting back and buying your way out by resorting to FA signings, which cut into team finances and sustainability at the minor league level.
None of the points above mean that you don’t make the key trade or FA signing. But an organization must be extremely judicious in doing so and only until AFTER it has established a foundation.
Alderson has done an effective job in restructuring the franchise from the ground-up, but he screwed the pooch in allowing Reyes to walk (with or without compensation) and parting with Pagan. In my mind, our top of the order was set for years… Reyes, Pagan, Wright, Davis… it was always an assumption on my part. A combination of speed and power impervious to L-R match-ups. As a bonus, the line-up was home grown.
When it comes to Reyes or Pagan, I don’t want to hear about financial restrictions. They would have been happy to sign reasonable back-loaded mid-range deals with player incentives and team options, to adjust for the respective value and length of their contracts.
So, yeah, I’m psyched about our young pitching and the acquisitions of Wheeler, d’Arnaud & Syndergaard are unconsciously amazing, but the loss of Reyes and Pagan was conversely stupid. Alderson obviously ignored the maxim “If it works, don’t fix it”.
I held a private belief many Met fans shared, that DW and Reyes would both make it to the HOF in Met uniforms. Thanks, Sandy.
so basically you wanted the Mets to be the Braves, just with the ability to carry a higher payroll.
works for me.
Hey, I know you ! Blast from the past …
Reyes I can’t get over myself. Alderson really botched that one. You are absolutely right Reyes should have gone to the HOF a Met. This team, right now, today would be a whole lot closer to contending with Reyes at SS. I watched him playing with the Dominican the other night, I still can’t believe he’s not a Met. He’s going to hit 20 + homers in Toronto.
Which is hy many of us are a bit upset with Sandy and what he has done…
This team COULD be competing THIS YEAR!
Even AFTER trading Beltran with all you think Wheeler is going to do…
Between Reyes and Pagan he’s done a lot more damage than good as far as 2013 is concerned and he would STILL be able to do whatever spending people think he is going to do next year if he had kept them.
.
NYT Forum – former tag name “Binky”.
Yes 2Cat – I can attest that that has been your view for the last decade.
Surprisingly, I agree with most of what you wrote.
There is a first for everything!
I think it is safe to say that most of e people who ae unhappy withthe way Sandy has gone about things have no real issue with the notion of building from within and even trading one or two players to get there….
What we have an issue with is his lack of doing anything in regards to making and preparing the MLB team to benefit from those kids when they actually do get here!
Great we got Wheeler and D’Arnaud and it won’t mean squat if the OF can’t field and hit!
No one suggested Sandy should build it in a year….(although some of the Sandy supporters think next year he will do just that in FA)
But he should not have spent all of his time signing one year and two year bandaids or throwing away what could have been two pretty good seasons of baseball if not for the towel throwing every July….
Maybe if he had not done that they might have drew a few more fans because there was a perception of Hope more than FUTURE and then he would have had the money to buy better players picking as smartly as people suggest he can and will when he finally does open his wallet!
And a Keith Hernandez “Kudos” to you in the most fanciful way,..
Don’t get any ideas, Metsie, the above comment was directed to my Bro…
Notwithstanding, I agree with what you just said. There’s no reason Sandy couldn’t have kept the good stuff intact while rebuilding on the fly. Omar certainly had his flaws, but bringing Pagan aboard wasn’t one of them.
I think TC had as much to do with Pagan’s departure as anyone in the organization. He demonstrated an unusual lack of understanding of Pagan’s medical condition.
UGH
“the long-term benefit of retaining your own draft choices, which creates a sense of identity throughout the organization.”
KEEPING reyes and pagan would’ve helped to do that…esp since BOTH came up through the system
Great column! We’ve been saying this since day 1 of Sandy; every move has been a salary dump, with Wright as the lone exception. MLB, Selig, the Wilponzis and The Sandy Man realized (some) fans would have burned Shea Field down had they not reupped #5. Cerrone has publicly disagreed with us, which was somewhat surprising… We say “some” fans because most of us had already accepted that [franchise] history was repeating itself and Reyes/Dickey were Seaver/Kingman II. We understood that the Wilpons had become M. Donald Grant and were almost relieved that we wouldn’t be worried that each stinging loss might mean missing out on the post-season on the season’s final day with a loss at home. But now YOU go ahead and tear open our just-helaed wounds and reopen our effectively glazed-over eyes! And on St. Paddy’s Day Eve, no less. Damn you.
It’s scary when fans applaud a GM who has done nothing but lose. This celebration for Alderson is like the one for Donnie Walsh when he was clearing cap and losing as Knick GM. His only objectives were to clear cap and draft properly. Walsh is the reason the Knicks have a group of fossils on our bench today. Instead of drafting Ty Lawson or Jrue Holiday in the 2009 draft, he took a stiff named Jordan Hill. Instead of drafting Brook Lopez, Serge Ibaka, Eric Gordon, or Nicholas Batum in the 2008 draft, he selects Gallinari. Instead of drafting Lance Stephenson in the 2010 draft, he selects Landry Fields and Andy Rautins. Somehow, Walsh is credited with turning the Knicks around for some odd reason.
This brings us back to Alderson. What has he accomplished for the Mets exactly? Lets see d’Arnaud and Wheeler do something positive before annointing him a savior, please. Would that be too much to ask for? Instead of obsessing over his ability to save the Wilpons money, how about he give us Met fans a .500 record? Some of us might be overjoyed with just that for now.
I agree, mostly. I do think the “Alderson as New Messiah” contingent is a little too easily satisfied. The 2012 Draft looks dubious. His work on the margins — where Omar excelled — has been pretty thin. You can’t criticize him for making mistakes on free agents, because outside of Frank Francisco (mistake), Sandy’s sat on his hands.
On the other side, as this post makes clear — excellent job, Matthew! — Alderson comes with strengths. Maybe we need to start focusing on Ricciardi and DePo, the “baseball” men?
With Sandy, the word “winning” almost never comes up. I don’t get the feeling he aches for it. I’m not even convinced that’s the real goal here. If he’s the turning point, I’m looking forward to the turning point who comes in next with the intention to build the best baseball team on the planet.
JP
The ONLY reason Sandy Alderson is here, is because the best option for the long term financial health of this franchise was NEVER on the table, because of pure cronyism.
The best option was Fred Wilpon selling this team to an owner who can financially support it while not having to make long term decisions based on short term financial problems.
Period
Amen
If the Wilpons were flush with cash in 2010, they probably begin the process to offer Reyes a contract. Since like you said, they were not, they come up with all sorts of silly excuses that then bring about the angry fan reaction you are now used to seeing here.
Imagine the Wilpons asking the league for a bridge loan, then turning around and spending 100 mil on Reyes.
Thats like asking your dad for a loan out of the family savings, the family THEN finds out about it, and then you come to the next house party with diamonds on your neck.
The problem is that the financials the Wilpons used to buy out Doubleday was imaginary money that never existed. The Wilpons were never supposed to run this franchise. Bud SHOULD have done the right thing and allowed them to fail, allowed them to sell the team, so that the National League can have a real NY presence.
and all your talk about the new way of doing things gets blown to smithereens when you look at how Bud handled Los Angeles.
The TV money and worldwide brand are injecting money into the league.
Folks talk about dwindling attendance as if that were the only avenue of getting money, this isnt the movies.
a few years back MLB advanced media back made almost 1 billion dollars, that billion was divided into 30 teams
the mets get 30 mil ANNUALLY from that source
they get another 25 mil ANNUALLY from CItigroup for naming rights
then there is merchandise rev sharing, another 30 mil
and we havent even gotten to the TV money yet
the last time there was any talk about any team being contracted was 11 years ago with the twins and expos. baseball profits have skyrocketed since then, and the rich teams with their mighty profits ( like the mets ) contribute to the pot in larger amounts to help keep the poor teams that they NEED to exist in order to have a league.
this is where the new CBA comes in, this is where a small market minded Bud Selig comes in
Bud would love to expand baseball to different countries.
Imagine if the league opened up a team in Santo Domingo….
Do you realize how crazy people are for baseball in that country already….
they love baseball….the way America used to love baseball 50 years ago…
an entire baseball town with casinos and shows can be created down there…..
they can turn DR into what Cuba was back in the 50′s
profit profit and more profit
Matt,
I believe you are an excellent writer and often bring provactive banter to the table. You certainly did the later with this story BUT… I respectfully disagree with many points. The entire first part of the story is pure conjecture! To say he was only brought here to stop the ship from sinking and not win championships is purely your opinion and something that cannot be proven.
“The most successful teams will be the teams who can develop a steady stream of talent from their minor league systems.” For the most part that has always been the case. Look at the Yankees of the late 90′s, yes they had their share of FA’s but the core was always homegrown and even the trades they made were facilitated by their strong farm system. This is certainly not a new method nor is exclusive to small markets.
You say, “Alderson is not a baseball guy.” The man has been doing this for over 30 years, I don’t care what his degree is in or what his former job was, or how he got into the baseball, after 30 years of doing it I think it’s fair to say he is a “Baseball Guy”.
I don’t agree with everything he does and I am very frustrated by his deception and double speak but I’m willing to let this play out with the hopes that starting in 2014 our franchise will be stable and have a steady stream of quality youngsters feeding the franchise from the farm system.
Well, yes, he has been doing this for a while — but his expertise is certainly on the business side. Also, in San Diego he had even less to do with the baseball side of things, he was sort of the CEO there not the GM, he ran the team’s finances.
My point is really that what he’s doing theoretically allows any GM to do his job with greater ease and flexibility, at least that’s the plan. He does seem to have a little more input here in NY with player decisions, but DePo and Ricciardi are really the ones behind player moves.
Got it. Thanks for clearing that up Matt. I see the validity in that. I DON’T however feel he WASN’T brought in here to win. I don’t think that approach even exists in most sports, it certainly doesn’t work. That being said, I cannot take that as an excuse.
Sloatsburg,
Like you I ejoy Matt’s writing, but your criticisms above were right on point. I am no fan of Selig or the Wilpons, but the story of Ucle Bud “placing” Alderson in his position and the “bailing out the Mets” with a $25 million bridge loan just are not accurate. Despite the Wilpon financial troubles, they could hire ay GM they wated. Alderson was by far the best candidate at the time, so log as he was interested, and he was. Why, I don’t know, but it is hard finding work that pays $12 mil over 4 years. Regarding the loan from MLB, it was a short-term loan, transacted 100% within the bylaws of MLB. Had Selig declined, the Wilpons would have injected personal cash to keep the team afloat. In fact, a few months after Uncle Bud’s loan, Jeffy found $20 mil under his mattress and bought one of those 4% shares, and SNY, which the Wilpons own 65% of, found the cash to buy a few more of those shares. Lastly, the only business model that can make the Mets profitable is one that has the team winning and competitive. The cannot cost cut their way to profitability due to the large overhead. The cost cutting was a survival tactic, now they need a winner to stop the losses.
Hindsight is always 20/20, but if we go back to the days when the Wilpons were considering the Einhorn deal, things were looking pretty bleak for the Wilpons. The favorable outcome in the trustee’s suit stopped the bleeding so to speak, the sharks stopped circling, the clouds started to break — insert whatever cliche you want — but I think it was touch and go there for a while. There are also well placed accounts of Alderson needing to be “convinced” to apply for the NY Mets job. Selig wanted his man in NY.
Many reasons for this, foremost of which is Selig’s stake in promoting small market dynamics … if the Mets can become a successful paradigm of how the small market approach can work even in big markets it will dramatically reduce spending across the league because other teams will try to duplicate it … remember his family still owns the Brewers, he want’s parity above all else.
Also, Alderson was the best candidate because he came highly recommended by Selig and most importantly, he’d done his hatchet craft, (which was precisely what the job in NY demanded), twice before.
I concede that “Alderson doesn’t care about winning” was a bit of hyperbole to make a point. I do believe Alderson wants to win, but i wanted to emphasize that I believe most of the player procurement work is done by his subordinates … and I think therein lies his greatest innovation — he’s effectively insulated baseball operations from ownership by putting the GM/CEO’s office (which happens to be his office) between the two. Jeff now has to get through Sandy if he wants to talk to DePo about trading Harvey for Jason Kubel lol …
it may be a matter of timing/duration.
of course, anyone would rather win than lose.
but, if you have a choice of going “all in” to try a still long shot to win this year knowing it will likely set back future development, or you can conserve resources now with a better shot at winning for multiple years starting a few in the future, Sandy likely takes the future sustained option.
The grown ups are in charge now. Minaya operated under a checkbook that had no limits on what he could do. Thanks to the Wilpons and Madoff those days are gone unless the Mets start drawing 3 million fans again consistently. Where Minaya signs 48 year old Julio Franco to two year contracts making millions Alderson has to count every dollar that he spends. Spending money to just spend is what got the Mets in the problems they currently are in. I have no problem not signing Bourne. As Alderson said he only wanted to go four years and not five. Minaya would always add an extra year on a contract or an easily obtainable option year on a contract. Your right, Alderson is a businessman. Minaya was a scout. Building a roster and an organization takes more than being a scout or baseball guy. I have no problem with Alderson making rational and thoughtful decisions and spending money wisely. Unless the Wilpons decide to sell, this will be the business model going forward
Yes because Grownups trash thier players in the press…Not just once but at least TWICE!
Make cheap tire jokes about not having money on Twitter…
And make statements like Maybe I should have sent a box of chocolates to the guy who just won a Batting title but couldn’t get an offer from the team….
Cracking Jokes about the outfield he himself decimated with trades, one of them being for two scrubs who TOGETHER didn’t equal one Minor League AAA player….
Yes very Adult behavior when compared to the previous GM isn’t it?
re: the trashing of players.
Unfortunately I’m all but certain several key NY journalists still have the Wilpons on speed dial … I think putting a gag order on Jeff may be a bit outside of Alderson’s scope.
“the grown ups are in charge now.”
the grown ups dont crack jokes about the OF they assembled
sorry, but the grownups left when DoubleDay sold his half
Where to start? SO much to cover it almost demands a counterpoint piece…..
First off I have yet to see ANY evidence that he has Enhanced, Improved, even ReStocked the Minor League System…He traded Two All stars one of them a Cy Young winner, and got two or three kids out of that which happened to pump our ranking up TEMPORARILY 10 spots and will soon drop right back to it’s old ranking in 3 months when the two top traded for kids become MLB players.
Since he has taken over there hasn’t been a single kid who spent any time in his “Improved” MiL system that has actually made the team! Tejada, Murphy, Davis, and Harvey never spent enough time or were here beforer any changes Sandy may have made to Minor system. Wheeler and d’Arnaud have not been any better than before they got here!
And other than those two guys he traded for there isn’t anything forthcoming to fill the needs of this team anytime soon. Some would even say some kids have stagnated and have been set back by the philisophical approach being used down there.
It’s pretty easy to say he improved things there because you have 4-5 years before anyone can show you the evidence that you were wrong. But lack of Evidence to his negative impact does not mean there is evidence of his positive impact at all.
So to say he has had any positive (or negative) impact is kind of like saying I have the winning numbers to win next weeks Powerball….Since you can’t prove me wrong I MUST have them right?
As for him preparing this team for life under the new CBA, I think thats hardly true at all, in fact no one was hurt MORE by the new CBA than teams that do what Alderson is trying to do here.
For reference read my OLD piece about the new CBA
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/11/balance-is-the-key-to-the-new-cba.html
The new CBA hurts both the spenders and the non-spenders. It is however a BOON to those who take a balanced approach towards spending and don’t over-rely on Drafts or Free Agency to make thier teams.
In fact some will point to the new CBA and it’s newfangled salary cap on Draft picks as the reason why Sandy was unable to sign half his picks last year and for losing his 2nd round selection but refusing to kick in the 60K it would have taken to make his offer equal to straight slot
The new CBA works against those teams like the Pirates and Oakland who think if they sell off thier high priced talent for kids and don’t spend a lot on MLB Players, they will be able to spend that money going overslot in the draft.
Can’t really do that anymore!
And the increase in Luxury Taxes has finally hit the critical point where teams are starting to think about if the cost of the players PLUS the tax and if it is really worth it. This will last just as long as the Economy stays in the tank and when it comes out and the Money is flowing again, things on that front will go right back to what they were under the old CBA as far as going over the Tax threshold.
In regards to making the team profitable it’s a slam dunk that his attempt has FAILED, his approach all WRONG because he has cut 65 Mil of Salary and still lost 23 Million last year!
If he loses more attendance this year they could be back to the same loss leader of 2010 when we lost 50 Million! Thats pretty much where Sandy STARTED in his quest to bring profitability!
In the end people look at the running of business and thinks it is key to a business’ success.
But you can have the WORST business organization on the planet and as long as it SELL PRODUCT it will be a success!
GM went bankrupt and was bailed out and people assume it was because thier execs were making too damn much money compared to the performance. But those folks are still making too damn much money and now they are making a profit with the same bad organization they went bankrupt with! How did they do that?
By selling more cars! People buy PRODUCTS they do not buy MANAGEMENT SKILLS!
PRODUCT is the KEY to a successful business it is what drives the entire business engine.
Sandy gets kudos for how he runs the organization yet the product has been hurt due to that organizational “Good Management” and they are not selling enough product to cover the bills!
You can run a business in the most efficient and cost effective way ever devised but if the product your selling isn’t good you will NEVER turn a profit!
So anyone who thinks smart business is about good and smart management is fooling themselves and perhaps losing thier shirt in the Market as well!
Because ALL BUSINESS is about SALES…Not OVERHEAD!
Keeping overhead low DOES NOT WORK if the Sales are not there!
And they are not here with these Mets!
In regards to having a steady stream of Kids to come onto the Roster you don’t do that by trading you best players. It can be a component but 99.9% of the time all you did was recycle a successful aquisition with something down the line that is unproven and comes with a ton of RISK! Like trading a winning lottery ticket for 4 that MIGHT hit the jackpot in a few years!
Bird in the hand for two in the bush so to speak.
Doesn’t work UNLESS you already HAVE that good MiL system created via GREAT DRAFTING that builds the Minors as well as anyone else could via the draft and you have a kid you NEED to play at a position because you know he is AS GOOD or BETTER than that valuable KNOWN commodity Veteran you intend to make the trade with.
I have yet to see any evidence that any of our drafts are any better than the ones that got us Ike Davis, Matt Harvey, Daniel Murphy and Reuben Tejada. Maybe in 2 or 3 years we MIGHT see something from it but to this date none are lighting up the farm enough to say we did pretty damn good compared to others in the draft.
In the end no matter how good you think a foundation is set they tend to only last as long as the contractor who built it is in charge…
Sandy has two years left and if they lose more games than last year or fail to win more games than the team he took over then chances are good he will not get to SEE the end of that contract!
I know many think the MLB FORCED the Mets to hire Sandy but whatever leverage they HAD to force them to do anything is now gone….Was gone the second the WIlpons sold those shares and paid off all thier MLB debt and SEALED when they realized that Madoff was not going to get a Billion dollars from them.
They could (if they want) fire Sandy today and Seligula and the rest of the MLB could do nothing to stop them.
We may yet indeed look back at Sandy’s tenure as a Turning point….
The Question is which side of the turning point will he fall into?
The Cashen side of the turning point?
Or the Grant side that made the team virtually starless and made it so bad for so long that ANY GM with a semi-decent scouting department could find a Strawberry and Gooden with 5 Top 10 Picks and 7 1st rounders total over the course of 5 years.
Sorry Matt I get what your trying to say and I don’t have an issue with what your saying is important to creating a successful team….
But I do disagree that any of that actualy fits what Sandy has done or is about to do…
And what some think he has accomplished or set out to accomplish has not even come CLOSE to being achieved!
And I don’t see him lasting long enough to see this plan through even if it WOULD work in 4 or 5 years time…..
He’s got until the end of 2014 and if no sniff of the Playoffs by then the only thing Sandy could be running is Seligula’s Senate!
Metsie: It comes down to Alderson has not earned praise of turning around this team around. The future may look good but “Are we there Yet?”
He hasn’t earned it but there do seem to be an awful lot of people who can’t wait to give it to him earned or not!
People think my problem is with Sandy….
But My issues has less to do with him and more to do with those who wish to pay a guy on the back for something he hasn’t done, hasn’t earned and may never come to be!
I bet they would have pat the back of the guy who developed the iMaps app two weeks after he started on it.
“It’s going to be GREAT this guy is doing a great job! Just wait and see!”
Until they drive off a cliff and curse him as they fall to thier death!
I think the player / personnel decisions probably have a lot more to do with DePo and Ricciardi than with Alderson. If their player selections are poor, then we’re not going to get much better in the short term, however, the hope in what’s happened here is that the organization itself will not be the cumbersome unwieldy beast it’s been in the past.
Now, I did my best not to mention Omar in this discussion because the unfortunate reality is that Fred and Jeff had a lot more to do with the Mets Organization than they do under Alderson. Sandy’s organizational overhaul obviated the Wilpons — especially Jeff, didn’t he have the title “VP of Baseball Operations” or something at one point when Omar was GM? I was aghast when I first saw that title. Jeff shouldn’t be VP of baseball anything. Now Alderson refitting has FINALLY managed to isolate the baseball minds from the business end of the organization … who stands between the baseball “minds” and the business end? Alderson himself. THAT is the biggest innovation here and I’m kicking myself as I write this for not being clearer on that point. Alderson has put himself between DePo and Ricciardy and the Wilpons, by establishing these corporate boundaries he is allowing the baseball people to do their jobs unencumbered by the likes of nitwit Jeff … and this is as it should be. Omar never had the benefit of this kind of insulation from the WIlpons, who, clearly, are not the brightest bulbs. So, again, I didn’t want to implicate Omar in my piece (I don’t believe I did).
Now, Omar, and all his predecessors, are certainly complicit in the sorry state of the Met Organization as a whole in 2010 when Alderson took over.
To say that “things weren’t bad” when Sandy took the reins is, frankly, looking at the past through a highly selective lense. The Mets for years neglected their farm system. Here is a FANTASTIC article that a friend of mine shared with me on the state of the Met farm — and the Omar / Bernazard years were not good, not good at all.
http://risingapple.com/2013/03/12/lost-in-vegas-the-mets-recent-struggles-with-aaa-affiliates/
Also, the only reason the Mets weren’t even worse over the years is because The Mets traditionally enjoyed one of the highest payrolls in baseball.
Which is why I laugh when people say Omar ruined this team with his spending….
You have to spend to get good players when your Minors aren’t ready to supply them!
Omar left a pretty damn solid farm as far as MLB players go just look at all the farm kids that will be starting for us this year….
No Superstars? You have to suck pretty bad and draft pretty high to get them! Nats didn’t get Straussburg in the middle or bottom of the first!
The book on Omar isn’t truly closed yet but it really doesn’t matter because you can hardly say a guy who had three seasons of playoff caliber contention ruined a thing….
He got hit with injuries the same way those FORMER postyer boys for good building (the Phillies) did last year!
And due to medical malpractice and the Wilpon’s insistence on making splash in 2010 it lasted longer than it should have….
But in the end I predict history will say Omar did pretty damn good and if he had the chance to utilize that farm he got, Maintain it via his drafts, Deal with his own bad contracts and allowed to continue, he might have been as beloved as cashen was….
Who had MUCH more to work with in 5 years than Omar had!
History will look back at Alderson as just another Grant era that made the team suck for the NEXT Cashen to succeed because he gets those picks that get your straussburg and strawberry and goodens.
you either won or your didn’t. the rest is coulda, shoulda woulda. There are no moral victories.
Yeh funy how you can say that when none of Sandy’s team has even gotten THAT close!
But he’s doing GREAT it was Omar who fell a game short of the playoffs that didn’t know what he was doing…..
You guys are just too much!
in 2 years. Inheriting a financial nightmare. Oh the horrors.
Which hasn’t been fixed yet has it?
And there is no more payroll left to cut!
What ya gonna do now?
Trade Wright?
well, the wilpons still own the team, MLB has been repaid, the debt situation reworked, and they seem to be breaking even.’
so yes, from that standpoint, he has been a success and the team is “fixed”.
if you want an analogy, that was replacing the bad foundation that was about to have the house collapse, and replacing the leaky roof. now that the structure is sound, you can work on remodeling the kitchen and bathroom,.
Loosing 23 Milion last year is breaing even?
Who is your accountant?
If the Wilpon´s SNY share gain can make up for that loss it´s not a problem. While the Mets, Citifield and SNY technically are three seperate businesses, they are very much tied to another. Since SNY has a bargain TV deal with the Mets, they´ll make more money than your “normal” TV station that usually has the TV rights for a franchise. Correspondingly, the Mets receive less.
Since the majority owners of SNY are the same people that are majority owners of the Mets, it doesn´t really matter which operation makes the money.
And looking at 2014, for now, the Mets should easily be profitable even if they add significant payroll next winter. Reason for that – besides losing contracts for Santana, Bay, Buck, FF and others – is the new National TV deal which kicks in well over 10+ million $ for each mlb franchise in additional revenue.
They are no getting 23+ Mil per year for broadcast rights…Sorry Dooby….
And we are assuming attendance does not decline further to even suggest 23 Mil is all they have to make up via means other than attendance…..
“Since the majority owners of SNY are the same people that are majority owners of the Mets, it doesn´t really matter which operation makes the money.”
It absolutely does matter when Operation #1 does not reinvest profits in Operation #2
SNY was making buukuuuu bucks while the Mets were trading Billy Wagner for Chris Carter to save 1 million dollars
You are absolutely wrong. SNY profits are definitely shoveled back into the Mets — at least according to the NY Post’s Kossman. It also just makes sense and is how most RSNs operate.
No YOUR WRONG!
Time warner does noown the Mets and will not allow THIER MONEY to be used to subsidize Fred Wilpons Business!
They got extra money by buying shares which if didn’t happen would have been season ticket sales from Time Warner instead!
Now they got a piece of the team and free Luxury Box to boot!
Are you talking about my comment regarding the Post and Kossman? Because the Mets do shovel SNY profits back into the team. Mets owners own roughly 60% of SNY. So they get 60% of SNY profits to do with it what they want.
I personally don’t think the Wilpons have any less or more influence now than they had before…
People are hoping that but the signing of Wright says something different.
I bet Bourn wasn’t Sandy or Depo’s idea either…It was sparked by the number of season ticket sales they saw and decided a BIG SPLASH was needed as they did when they went after Martinez and Beltran!
Those two seem to be the same game the Wilpons have ALWAYS played….
As for the team being less unwieldy All I see from what they have done is reduce the numbers that wind up in the book but the proportions of the problem have remained static…
They lost 55 Mil with a 140Mil payroll cut out a third of that Payroll and cut the losses by half….
Because WHAT they cut didn’t just cut the overhead it also cut the revenues as well.
And the problem there is it is much harder to get the revenue back once it leaves.
You might even have to spend money you can’t afford to get it and that pretty much puts you back where you started!
To run the business properly you have to understand the business your in and how to market yourself….
Harvey and Wheeler is not as good at marketing your product as Beltran and Dickey was….
Maybe they will in time but in the meantime your losing your shirt.
It may appear that Jeff can’t run roughshod over Sandy and maybe it’s even true to some extent….
But the problem I think is people think Jeff is (and has) been running anything at all….
He’s just a buffer for Daddy who doesn’t want to be bothered everyday and can wait to hear what they have to say over the family sunday dinner.
“Harvey and Wheeler is not as good at marketing your product as Beltran and Dickey was….”
Not sure I agree here, I will be in NY this summer and I can’t think of anything I’d rather see than Wheeler pitch with D’Arnaud behind the plate — that includes watching Dickey in a Met uniform were that somehow possible in an alternate universe.
Wheeler is the real deal.
And D’Arnaud can HIT !
Ok I’ll make you a deal….
When they BOTH get here….
We will take the average attendance od games they appeared in and average it out over the number of appearances and then do the same for Dickey last year and see who was actually the bigger draw…
If it turns out to be a tie though you will have lost because Wheeler didn’t surpass Dickey and that means d’Arnaud came no whereNEAR close to making up for Beltran….
Deal? LOL
(and no I won’t bet you to not post because I like you posting and have no desire to see you go! LOL)
You can’t include Beltran because when Beltran was here the Mets were a much better team overall … but I’ll take the Wheeler / Dickey bet …
box of cracker jacks?
ut dude…isn’t that what RE MARKETABLE is all about?
Yes they won more therefore are more marketable than those two!
I’ll accept the terms since I was pretty much not counting Beltran in the first place…
Still you have to admit if BOTH of those don’t draw as much or the same as just Dickey it’s slam dunk they would have drawn more with Beltran….
I mean even you have to admit with Beltran in the OF they will would as many if not MORE games than they will with the OF we plan on having now!
They still sell Cracker jacks?
I would have thought Bllomberg banned them by now!
LOL
Finally got the chance to read your link Matt (sorry for the delay)
Did a lack of communication cost us the affiliation with the Tides?
Was Lack of Logistics really a problem there?
Well I offer into Evidence Buffalo….
Much closer to home…So Logistics not an issue….
Don’t know how often Sandy visited but apparently whatever he did didn’t help because they ran to Toronto the second they could!
It is patently UNFAIR to rate a Minor League system or the impact of a GMs tenure the year AFTER he was forced to raid that farm due to injuries and loss of players….
And what SHOULD be thought of is HOW MUCH did that Farm produce?
We all talk about the Yankee Core but I can say with conviction….
Bernie Williams never hit 32 HRs in ANY season the way Ike Davis did just last year!
Jorge Posada in his first 4 years didn’t do as Much as Murphy has to date!
Matt Harvey in his very first half a season was Lights out better than Pettite was in his first three
Niese is better than any other pitcher they have developed SINCE then!
And I didn’t even find a correlation to Gee there….
The only ones who they have that have not been found in our System yet are Jeter (who Wright is most compared to for some dumb reason) and Rivera who has been the best Reliever in baseball history….And most of that is because of ALL the opportunity he had to get saves wholesale because of those guys I mentioned above!
The problem with our farm isn’t the farm…it’s the fact that the guys who will constitute our Core aren’t there they are HERE!
To rate Omar on what it looked like AFTER they got here is rediculous!
And the truth is our Farm is STILL pretty good but if people admit that then they can’t make the case to sell off another Beltran or Trade away a Cy Young winner and continue the MONEYBALL they all love to see being played….
But there was NOTHING wrong with our Farm when Sandy took over and all he did was trade an All star and a Cy Young winner to get a quick fix up in ranking that will last about as long as snorting $100 worth of cocaine…Feels good for about 45 Minutes and then it’s all gone!
Back to needing to find more….Lets trade Wright, and then Niese and then Davis and then Murphy….
So we can keep that MiL ranking high PLUS collect all those top 10 Draft picks we will need to draft a new core after trading the gift horse we looked in the face and traded!
“but there was NOTHING wrong with our farm when Sandy took over”
I don’t agree with this at all.
The problem throughout the Omar / Bernazard / Duquette / Phillips years was the same. A couple of token prospects up top and virtually nothing else. Zero depth.
This is undeniable as far as I’m concerned, With the exception of a couple of FSL playoff appearances (one of which happened just last year under Alderson’s tenure) the teams in the Mets minor league systems have been awful.
Yeah when you have one of the highest payrolls in the game you will occasionally catch lightning in a bottle with the right free agent mix …
But when guys get injured down the stretch ya got nuthin.
Come on matt…Yankees have been catching lightning in the bottle for almost 20 years now buying up Free Agents….
How many has Oakland or Pittsburg won in that time?
Couple of things, first of all the Yankees have also been raiding the draft by going over slot thereby ensuring a farm system stocked with lots of talent. They wouldn’t have had any of their last 4 or 5 titles without their home grown core. Secondly, the Yenkees haven’t just been “top 5 in the league” in payroll, they’ve been 40, at times 50 million higher than the number 2 team. They are WAY above everyone else. The difference has been decreasing in recent years but for a while we all know the Yankees were in a financial league of their own.
Yet they don’t seem to be forced to take any loans…..And make a profit every year…
Tell me that if we had spent even HALF the difference between us and the Yankees in 2006-2008 that we wouldn’t have at least one WS and Three consecutive Playoff appearances out of it!
The deliberate practice stuff is development … and the data does seem to indicate that “greatness” is often an artifact of a ridiculous amount of practice hours … whether you “buy” that greatness in free agency ready made or develop it yourself is important in this discussion in so far as it is a lot cheaper to develop it yourself … but an increased emphasis on development is where MLB is heading, development is going to play a much more crucial role as free agency diminishes.
Ownership has been trying to undermine free agency since … the early 70′s ???
Kyle Lohse anyone?
The only reason Ownership managed to slip all this anti-free agent stuff into the CBA is because the players were afraid of a hard salary cap like in football and they made all sorts of concessions to avoid it … probably too many.
“so far as it is a lot cheaper to develop it yourself”
Is that true?
How much money spent on all the kids that ever get put on the farm actually results in the same level of play from a cost per player POV?
Sure beltran might cost you 18 Mil per year….
But they also spend millions on training on all those kids in the farm and may never get even ONE Beltran out of it.
Doesn’t the failures also count in the costs?
Well, somebody has to develop players, otherwise there will be no more Beltrans at all, and it’s not like the minor leagues don’t make money in their own right. What’s the alternative? let your farm go to pot and just build from free agency?
I don’t know what the numbers are but you take the top 3 contracts on the Yankees, what does that come to 80 million? That can buy you an awful lot of development hours right there.
Yes but at least they KNEW what they were getting…
You could spend the same amount on development and get NOTHING in the end if the players bust….
Token?
If Ik Davis who hit 32 HRs something Wiliams NEVER did for the Yankees is TOKEN then lets face it Barry Williams was a token prospect too!
And that makes Posada an outright BUST doesn’t it?
Harvey is a TOKEN Prospect?
Yet Wheeler is the be all and end of of Sandy’s GOOD WORK with the farm?
Whats our depth now?
And who got it for us?
Wright was out who played in his place? Who got him? He got hurt today,Who replaces him? Lutz? Flores? Who got them?
Who is the backup 1B if Ike goes down? Who got him?
Who is the backup 2B? Which GM found him?
3/5ths of your Rotation is Omar farm buillt!
Token?
Please Matt you pumping up Wheeler and d’Arnaud to say he did great things for the Farm yet not one of the starters OR Depth you mentioned has anything to do with Sandy…
And to top it off the WEAKNESS in the OF is all of his creation….
He traded the OF for Wheeler ramirez and Torres…
He traded your best starter to get D’Arnaud and MAYBE some more pitching in 3 years….
Your being VERY unfair and minimizing just how good Omars Farm was when Sandy got it and OVER INFLATE what you think he has brought to that farm….
Because outside of Wheeler D’Arnaud and a BIG BIG maybe on Snydergaard he hasn’t gotten one top ranked kid to date and the one people rank high can’t get himself last A ball yet while guys drafted a year later and later in the draft have!
Metsie, if you want to be factually correct (I know this is a big concern of yours), Norfolk is actually closer to Queens than Buffalo is. Not by a whole lot, but it is closer
By a whole 15 Minutes! LOL
40 Miles!
pretty damn even if you ask me!
then at least retract your hyperbole.
“Well I offer into Evidence Buffalo….
Much closer to home…So Logistics not an issue…”
Doesn’t change my point does it?
We lost Buffalo even faster than we lost Norfolk….
Whats Sandy’s excuse and why doesn’t it apply to Omar as well?
It is hard to tell what your point is, so the best I could do was indicate your factual errors, to see if that would help.
You know EXACTLY what my point was….You just tried to nitpick something else in it to hide and change the subject of it….
To blame Omar for the loss of Norfolk is dumb because Sandy lost Buffalo even faster!
But you ran from that with your little distance niggling didn’t you…
And now that it is out of the way your left with nothing…
To blame Omar for the loss of Norfolk is dumb because Sandy lost Buffalo even faster!
That is not true at all. Both Norfolk and Buffalo were lost at the end of year 2 after the new regimes took over. Norfolk at the end of 2006, and Buffalo at the end of 2012.
But here’s a difference — When Omar took over the Mets, Norfolk was actually a good team. The year before they were a .500 team, and they won their division in 2005, Omar’s first year. But the next year, they fell to 57-84. After that season the Tides kicked out the Mets. And publicly they complained that neither Omar or anyone from his staff had visited the team that entire year. They also complained about all the old geezers Omar had stocked the Tides with, such as Gerald Williams, Jose Lima, Michael Tucker, and Jose Offerman. So they were definitely unhappy with Omar and the Mets at that point.
Buffalo? We really don’t know the full reasons why they kicked out the Mets. But at least no one has publicly complained about how the Mets treated them.
Also, the Norfolk club signed a deal with Baltimore ( a team in its market ) and since Baltimore had all its teams at the time in the DMV area, it made much more sense to include Norfolk. Norfolk signed a nice TV deal when Baltimore got them. Something that would never happen with the Mets.
Thats the real story why Norfolk switched up from NYM to Baltimore.
Its as if the Diamondbacks had a team in Jersey City…then JC switches to either the Yankees and the Mets and now has their games televised on SNY or YES. They make much more loot that way.
…DePo and Ricciardi than with Alderson.
which perfectly explains why Brad Eamus is still employed by the Met organization…and was given a crack at the starting job in 2011…even when he was outperformed by Omar’s guys
This article reads much like the new FO has been operating. Business….it’s just business.
Very good points and ones I mostly agree with – especially your first paragraph. I’ve been saying much the same thing for 2 years now. Isn’t a doubt in my mind SA was part of the package deal the Wilpons made with Selig.
Baseball as a business is evolving, like it or not. Some if it might be hard to swallow right now but I think that’s because the Mets are one of the first large market teams following the new business model. Might be easier to accept in the near future as the Yankees have jumped on board as well.
Time will tell where all this take the Mets.
There’s no new business model being followed. The owners are being tightwads. There’s nothing revolutionary happening. There’s such a blind faith towards Alderson. Very Donnie Walshish. Odd….
It’s the Kansas City Plan.
Ahhhh Kansas City…One of the Great winnig teams in the MLB….LOL….
I guess KC plan was so successful that they had to bring in pitching developed by TB Rays because either their draft honchos have no clue, spin the bottle picks were bad or they just had not idea what the drafted player, mainly pitchers would become.
Never heard of anyone with “blind faith.”
just before your time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUW1SGF7bR8
This current Met team isn’t sniffing the playoffs unless Ike Davis turns into a legit power hitting, RBI machine. Unless Lucas Duda turns into a big time RBI producer. Wright has already proven he needs better players than him in the middle of the lineup. I’m sorry, but unless you spend 15-20 million per on 2 legit middle of the order superstars, you’re going nowhere. D’Arnaud isn’t that guy. Where are these middle of the order power hitters coming from?
It wont be anyone Alderson drafts. That’s for sure. He will have to do it by FREE AGENT SIGNING just like one Omar Minaya did it. Sure, he can trade prospects for a young power hitter,, but a contract still will need to be fulfilled!
The Wilpons want to win. No evidence of anything different.
Alsderson and the guys he brought in are doing exactly what any good management team would have done in the same circumstances regardless of the CBA.
They inherited a poor team with many bad contracts, a thin farm system, and little cash to spend on players because of the owners situation at the time.
You can’t turn around a team in the position Omar left them in overnight…unless you have unlimited $, and they don’t
Whether or not he is doing a good Job will be clear after next season. When more of the young guys have made the majors, and he has had a winter, 2013-2014, with the ability to compete for free agents to fill holes. (or trade young talent to fill them)
I think he I’d doing a fine job given the circumstances, and have great hope for the coming years.
“They inherited a poor team with many bad contracts”
No they inherited just TWO bad contracts FOUR if you want to count perez and castillo who were cut practically from the get go!
Beltran and Reyes were not BAD contracts….
Bay and Santana are about the only two you can identfy as being bad since he got here….
The Farm was NOT thin as the guys expected to comprise the majority of our team all come from it!
Niese, Gee, Wright, Davis, Murphy, Harvey, Tejada, even Valdespin, Kirk and Duda were all from that farm!
Marcum, Buck, Cowgill and Baxter are the only players so far that were not from our farm that might see some gametime this year….Maybe a Pen arm or two as well….
The two kids everyone thinks solved our Farm problem cost an Annual All star and Cy Young pitcher….
He has yet to turn a profit and has only reduced the losses to 23 Mil from the 50 Mil he started with.
And thats after cutting out roughly 55 Mil of that Salary you mentioned on Wasted Contracts!
I know you all think that going on an FA spending spree is in the card of the future…
But if you want to see that you had better put your money where your mouth is and start attending games in greater numbers because the trend on attendance is going DOWN not up and if they lose anymore attendance with the fact that our Salary is about the same as it was last year they will lose a lot more than 23 Million and there will be no trip to baseball Bloomingdales to make all this work!
it’s not like anderson set up dynasties for the A’s or the Padres.what good has he done for the product on the major league level.profitability will only come with wins , not maybe’s.
Well I suppose you could say the A’s have a dynasty of ALSO RANS….
LOL
Actually that’s not true, the pirates and the marlins have been in the black for a while now, especially with media and revenue sharing $$.
I remember an article a while back that showed how many of these small market teams that are crying poverty (to validate their lack of spending to their fans) are actually raking in the dough. That’s why in the new CBA it is REQUIRED that the money go to ON FIELD improvements. It’s unusual for a ML team to lose money in this day and age, it actually requires quite an extraordinary set of circumstances usually involving a monumental debt load.
Sorry, the above was in response to, “profitability only coming with wins.”
Matt,
The Pirates and Marlins could turn that profit due to stadiums funded by the public that cost much less than Citifield.
Yes very true, but I’m just saying you don’t have to win to turn a profit in this league. Which is a problem in and of itself.
Maybe not in the league but most DEFINITY have to do it to turn a profit in NYC because there are a ton more things to do in NYC than there is in Pittsburg or kansas City!
yes and no
it depends on what your expenses are, and thats not just on salary.
even if salary was all the same, running the mets is much more expensive than Pittsburgh or KC
and if attendance was the same, running the mets is much more profitable than Pittsburgh or KC
because the revenues that come with being a NY team are that much higher
and the teams like the mets are expected to contribute to that pot, to help out the Pitts / KC teams that they need to exist to have a big league
imagine we go back to 12 teams
Boston
Philly
LA angels
LA dodgers
SF Giants
Yanks
Mets
Cubs
White Sox
Toronto
Nationals
Orioles
the league would make much less money…as much as they complain about rev sharing, big market teams NEED small market teams to exist
Very well written.
I really hope someone writes a book about what really happened.
Was Omar really in charge and it was his flawed strategy that decided against spending money in the draft or were the Wilpons forcing him to GM in a specific way?
That’s the real question I wanna know…
We have a young infield that’s almost complete. Our pitching is stacked in the minors and we will soon have one of the better pitching staffs in all of baseball! Finally all of minayas FA signings will be off the books next year and we will have more money than every one but the sox to spend! We are ready to be relevant again very soon! Thank you alderson! He did it the right way even if a lot of people can’t see it yet!
They lost 23 Million last year?
Where are they going to get the money you think they are going to spend?
You think Uncle Seligula is gong to give you a load to pay some guy 20 mil to become a winner?
Good article.
Except the one guy that absolutely should have been re signed is Jose Reyes. Or when they let Reyes leave they should have let Wright leave also and done a complete rebuild instead of the half way job that Jeff Wilpon is so fond of.
interesting piece. I have said all along that job 1 for Sandy was to stabilize the organization financially, rebuild the structure (model, philosophy) and essentially reposition it for the future. then he would move on.
The big problem I see to maintaining this latticework is, while GMs will come and go, it really requires a strong, dominant leader to keep the focus. and when sandy goes, and JP is the new GM, the COO (which IMO is what Sandy should be, and is doing the job of) will revert back to Jeffy boy. And does anyone think once Jeff and Fred have the MLB office out of their business, they are going to stay on a structured path? I don’t. Whatever organizational good Sandy leaves behind IMO will go right back into the “Jeffy quick fix crapper”
I guess developing all this awesome pitching is needed to win going forward not just for the present but where are the offensive bats that help a team win with “awesome pitching?”
You can live within the new constraints of the players/owners contract concerning caps, $$$, etc. but it is these same contracts that have given us “quality starts” to allow pitchers with 4.50 or higher ERA’s to argue for more $$$.
Anyway my concern is that is you are living under this new status then if you draft a player you want, because you feel he is the necessary since you drafted him high, then go all out to sign him and don’t allow a few million, not my money, to let the player walk (can’t remember the pitchers name from last years draft) ; anyway where are the bats?
I’ve seen some bats being drafted by other teams so they are there but with the new push to sign your young players while covering their arb years there will be less quality FA’s out there for supplementing the pitching as A’s have done.
Only, I see, by trading your abundant, Say a little prayer for Mets
, pitching can this area be filled.
Where is the last RH bat developed by Mets system at?
You can’t win games just by pitching, see SF Giants (2010, 2012) WS champs who I think only have Posey, Panda and I think that is it as viable bats from their system, they needed OUR Angel Pagan, Ross, Renteria, Huff, etc from other teams to help them get over the bump and go all the way.
I hope that under the new “legal areas” that can be exploited Mets and SA will not use this new system as a reason to not put a good product on the field.
sarge, I think you bring up a really good question. It’s a strategy to be sure, they are betting that quality starters are the most hard to come by commodity so they are stocking up on a “critical mass” (their term) of arms so that hopefully a percentage of them will pan out. Whether that (lack of offense) will come back to haunt them remains to be seen but the giants (and the 69 Mets) rode this formula to 2 World Series titles.
high end young SP is also the most coveted commodity, so if you actually have extra, it is readily convertible into bats. The key (and hard part!) is developing the excess!
The extent to which SA is a complete farce and failure of a GM will be determined–mainly IMO–during the next two seasons in the realm of starting pitching. His “success” will be determined by threading together one of the best SP staffs in baseball. If this isn’t evident by mid-season 2014, then it’s unlikely there will ever be much to be said for what he’s accomplished.
think of him as the actual COO, and primary mission (as with any COO) is keeping the organization afloat. Which was the point of this article.
Hi Matt,
I don’t think you came to praise Sandy or bury him as much to make the point that he sees the Mets as a business and was handpicked for the job to keep it afloat for the current owners. Though I do agree that he as a fan would like to see the team win, I also agree that he as an executive is not concerned with that at all as it is the ledger books. And that was all that was behind his moves of acquiring “inexpensive” players, something to this day I am surprised that he openly admitted to Mike Francesa last September.
But be careful – not calling Sandy a “baseball” person is going to get you more flack as I can attest from my own personal experience. Yes, we could have had a solid contending club had he been focusing on the business of baseball and not baseball as a business. Hey, guess you better be careful about saying that as well.
I’m not too sure if Sandy was ahead of the curve, however, as to the ramifications the new CBA agreement because we do not really know how other teams are going to react. The Yankees, for example, aren’t downsizing due to the CBA as it is their ticket sales are dropping. With the money being made through RSNs or the selling of television rights we don’t know yet if the days of those big contracts and mid-season trades are over and that we are returning to the days before free agency when it was indeed the farm system that clubs relied on for most of their talent. And I’m not too sure how much the loss of a first round draft pick is going to hinder the wealthier clubs since they still have 39 other picks and as we know, so many of today’s stars are not from the first round.
But I’ve always given Sandy credit for being a shrewd business executive with the ability to read between the lines and sense the road one would be headed into on a legal and financial basis – so you might have a point. Perhaps he has evaluated the situation and senses other teams are going to fall in line with the way the Mets are now approaching things. But, as you said, that doesn’t excuse him for the position we are in right now.
I don’t believe he decided to operate the Mets as a small market team by choice as it was the choice was to have him operate the Mets on a level of that small market team. What we see in the short-term is really considered inconsequential to those other than the players and fans. It is allowing the Wilpons to retain ownership. I think, however, that making the Wilpons more important than the franchise was also putting them ahead of competitive integrity.
But we should be used to that with MLB in general. The two wild-card system has already watered down the integrity of the sport to get more fans in more stadium seats in September and allowing teams with the even the seventh best record in the league a chance at the world series – which is exactly what we saw with Detroit this past season and another reason by the time the fall classic comes around, nobody outside the two cities involved is really watching.
This article was rather long-winded and repetitious reflecting the self-indulgence of its author in his elaborate, and at times, fanciful beliefs he views as facts such as who Alderson works for and who constructs the team.
There’s nothing new or novel about building from within or having a cold as stone executive at the helm as hired hand. It’s unfortunate that such a person is the Mets GM, that his core philosophies and approach have changed little since his time in Oakland, that his communicative style is that of manipulation and of desire to control the narrative, to utter words that are purposely vague, that deliberately parse hairs ad nauseum
It’s also no secret that the Mets, as all teams, seek to turn profit and that expenditures cannot be limitless in the course of doing so. As the market changes, so do the corresponding adjustments by the stakeholders.
There is something very important, in context, about the restructuring of the Met front office in such a way that the GM’s role becomes, in effect a CEO/ cheif financial officer, rather than a player personnel operative.
Sandy has put the office of the “GM” between Owership, and baseball operations, he has effectively insulated his player procurement division from influences that have intruded upon it in the past.
This is simply the same structural paradigm he established in San Diego, it doesn’t take an “insiders scoop” to figure this out — it’s on the team’s organizational flow-chart.
To deny the far reaching implications of even this one change however, is to neglect at least one aspect of an institutional dysfunction that has plagued the team for decades. As I said earlier, Sandy has at the very least made it a lot harder for Jeff Wilpon to convince DePo to trade Harvey for Kubel … he has to get through Alderson first.
By setting himself up as “CEO” Alderson (or whomever ends up in the GM’s seat) can oversee organizational dynamics and prevent damaging “influences,” essentially allowing everyone to actually do their jobs. This may seem less than earth shattering in a business where blockbuster trades and huge free agent signings make the headlines, but I wouldn’t underestimate the positive effect of clarity and efficiency in any organization.
Hi Matt,
“There is something very important, in context, about the restructuring of the Met front office in such a way that the GM’s role becomes, in effect a CEO/ cheif financial officer, rather than a player personnel operative.
“Sandy has put the office of the “GM” between Owership, and baseball operations, he has effectively insulated his player procurement division from influences that have intruded upon it in the past.”
I am so appreciative of your comments about the nature of the front office and the corporate role in which today’s general manager plays the part of, for that is indeed being lost by many. This is what one author had coined the changing role of the general manager – from one who had a career in the game and focused mainly on the team and one who ran the business as a “mom and pop” store to one with a law or business degree and running it as a corporation with others handling baseball matters. In essence, the GM today is iindeed the CEO but with the title of General Manager.
Hardball talk focused on that change in this brief summary from a few years back:
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/14/why-arent-more-mlb-general-managers-former-mlb-players/
This was the point I was making in regards to Sandy’s executive role in Oakland – that it was one of the chief financial officer and legal counsel. Sandy is not the story of one who admitted to knowing little about the game professionally and learned though the study of advanced statistics how to evaluate talent and put together the frame work from draft picks through free agents that led to those great teams. He was the business end of things.
The problem IMHO has been with those from non-baseball backgrounds believing they have learned enough about the game through advanced statistical analysis that it has become an interference as pointed out in those earlier articles I posted by those like Tony LaRussa and Terry Francona.
The other problem is that if the new GM does not involve himself in the daily matters of baseball operations, he thus hires those who fit his mindset, ignoring the traditionalists. From a Murry Chass article from six years ago:
“I was critical of the notion,” Schuerholz said Friday, the day the Braves’ changes were announced, “that someone writes that entirely in place of traditional, instinctive, experienced, intuitive scouting, there could be some metric model that could be as good as that.” “On the other hand, Schuerholz said, “I have always suggested that if someone were to create the proper balance of those two elements, that would be a good way to go.”
“Jocketty agreed that merging the two methods was probably the best idea. “Blend together the traditional way of scouting and the analytical side of it,” he said. “We tried to do that. It’s important to do both. You kind of need both to support each other’s theory.”
But then, notice what Chass follows up with:
“In general, teams that hire younger general managers — and many younger ones have been hired — are looking to the statistical analysis method to the exclusion of the traditional method.”
Though he is no longer a “young” general manager, this is the problem that we see with the Mets today, for example with point made by Bobby Ojeda about the Mets telegraphing the message that they were going to be less aggressive early in the count. Add that to the focus being not on competitive integrity but on the credits and debits and we see that boomeranging even more with the acquiring of “inexpensive” players.
Great points Joe,
In the end there are no guarantees, and no matter how good your numbers crunchers are you’re only as good as your scouting if you ask me. DePotesta himself insists that while they do look at value/replacement metrics, they still primarily base their decisions on “detailed scouting reports and performance data.” I don’t have any reason to doubt him, but again that doesn’t guarantee anything. The danger of applying metrics to aggregate team totals thereby building a cumulative effect is that you leave yourself vulnerable to exceptional opponents … sure you can build a “Jason Giambi” like they did in Moneyball by putting several players into the lineup who each bring some aspect of Giambi’s game to the table, but you still lack Giambi’s overall talent, and a good pitcher will find it easier to plow through your bargain basement albeit cumulatively comparable lineup. This is why all those Oakland teams, (not to mention the Braves and the Twins) did so well during the regular season but faltered in the post season.
Usually trying to turn an MLB franchise into a profitable one structurally won´t contradict with fielding a winning team.
Because revenue is a lot higher when a team is constantly winning than if it´s hovering near .500 or well below it.
Alderson inherited an injury prone and top heavy .500 caliber team, lacking depth with one of the highest payrolls in the game and an underrated – yet no better than averagish – farm system.
A major league team that had finished below .500 in the two previous seasons due to an unusual share of injuries and bad luck. And a bunch of longterm payroll obligations that were tough to handle due to the Madoff mess (which was something Minaya obviously couldn´t really foresee).
With the Wilpon´s very much inable to put extra money into the major league roster over the 2011/2012 time period thanks to Madoff, the Picard case, declining attendance and a restructuring of their entire businesses, pretty much what happened was the only option save for selling the team and finding owners not so much in a cash bind.
Now, the financial restructuring has led to a general re-setting of the payroll to about as low as you can get. Save for retaining the franchise player David Wright longterm and also extending the young quality LHSP Jon Niese. As of today, the projected 2014 payroll will be at about 50 to 55 million $ if the Mets bring back every player not eligible for FA after the 2013 season. Wright will be the ONLY player on the 40-man roster who is over age 30 (and even he barely so). So, indeed, the Mets will have a clean slate and should have plenty of cash to spend next winter thanks to a major spike in revenue thanks to a new National TV deal that kicks in for the 2014 season. Even without needing the Wilpons to send over some of their gains thanks to a very favorable SNY deal with the Mets over to the mlb franchise, the Mets should be able to add at least 30+ million $ in 2014 salary while breaking even as an isolated entety. If you are willing to look at SNY, Citifield and the Mets as one business – which they essentially are – there´s probably another 20+ million $ to invest besides the 30+ million while still breaking even as a whole – even with attendance not picking up again right away.
I doubt Alderson & the Wilpons would want to touch that reserve though.
The question that remains to be answered is whether Alderson & his lieutenants will use their resources well.
But Dooby your ability to turn a profit pretty much depends on your competition for the people’s dollars!
Atlanta can maintain a profit margin pretty easy…..
You want to see BASEBALL they are the only ticket in town!
While I’m sure they have thier version of Broadway and lots of Movie theaters and restaurants they do not have NEARLY as many other activities as exist in NYC. And we didn’t even touch on the fact the Mets compete with the Yankees for BASEBALL dollars!
Pittsburg has even less than Atlanta and NO TEAM to cut into the Baseball market….
Kansas City even less still and again no team to take away Baseball Dollars from them!
Like it or not baseball is an ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY!
A low budget movie can SOMETIMES be good but in most cases people will not care about or know about it because it doesn’t draw enough attention to make a lt of money…
Almost ALL Blockbusters make money especially if they have big stars to draw you to the theater!
Profitability should be easier in a Big market but you still have to LURE people to your product.
So to say teams in the league can spend little and make a profit ignores the fact that they have MUCH LESS competition for the entertainment bucks than a team like the Mets and Yankees (and any bigger market team) does.
And if you want proof just look at the Box Office take of Off Broadway plays with those on Broadway…..
Sure they might make money but barely turn a profit and can not market itself enough to get more sales.
Sure, there´s plenty of competition here. However, the Mets have been a profitable franchise before – especially when they have been winning. And a city the size of New York – plus all the towns surrounding it in the Tri State area – should easily allow for two “large market” teams with “large market” payrolls eventually.
There is no reason why this franchise should not be able to be profitable eventually again – even with a payroll that´s routinely in the 120 to 150 million $ range going forward, probably even higher if the team is really good. The Phillies have been breaking even with a 170 million $ payroll. Of course, that is likely to decrease again as their major league team continues to fade away after their lengthy run.
In any case, the Mets should easily be able to sport an 85 million $ or so payroll in 2014 – without losing any money even if attendance continues to sag and even without needing help from the Wilpons´SNY share profit. That would leave over 30+ million $ to spend next winter on additions to the returning roster.
And if the money is spent properly, the team starts winning again, attendance & revenue is bound to rise again in 2015, allowing further payroll boosts as the team gets stabilized as a contender. What the Mets will try to avoid is longterm contracts with the potential to get “ugly”and locking up the better young players longterm in a similar way like Niese. Be it Harvey, Ike or eventually Wheeler and d´Arnaud. Doesn´t take all that much creative thinking to come up with such a plan, imho.
Yes Dooby do you know the st year they wer profitable?
The year they had the highest payroll in team history!
Odd isn’t it?
Granted not DUE to the salary in that case as it had to do with Stadium sentiments at the time but go to the previous year before the stadium outliars and you see they still had the highest payroll in thier history up till that point and made money doing it….
WHY?
Because people came to see all that money they put on the field tey were EXCITED to see it and see it often!
Metsie,
with all due respect, but I believe you´re contradicting yourself here.
On one hand you´re blaming Alderson for not being a “buyer” at the July 2011 and 2012 deadlines – at a time the Mets were losing a bunch of money even as they were above .500.
On the other hand, you don´t believe that the Mets will be able to field an 85 million $ payroll in 2014 – by far the lowest it will have been in well over a decade.
Again, there´s a good chance that the main motivation behind the rebuilding was the financial distress of ownership. That group just couldn´t afford to go with a 140+ million $ payroll to field a .500 caliber club that mainly lacked depth (and in fact was worse in 2009 and 2010 due to injuries and a lack of depth showing) with attendance in a constant decline with the novelty of Citifield having worn off. With, say, the current LA Dodgers ownership group in place, at least there would have been the option of buying – say sign Cliff Lee as a free agent for the 2011 season with Santana likely out for example to serve as the staff ace and not having to worry about the vesting option for KRod for example and later being able to keep Jose Reyes and to acquire a proven and expensive replacement for Carlos Beltran (or extend him).
Fact is, that wasn´t an option with the Wilpons remaining in charge – as unfortunate as that may be. And how Alderson was supposed to build a 90-win team with a 10 million $ off-season budget in 2010/2011 and 6-7 roster spots to fill (5th SP, half a bullpen, half a bench) is beyond me.
Looking ahead towards 2014, odds are that the 2013 Mets won´t see their revenue decrease again mainly thanks to the All Star Game mid-summer. That profit will probably make up for the likely loss in revenue with a further decrease in attendance.
The Mets – as an isolated entety – lost roughly 20 million $ in 2012 with a 95 million $ payroll or so. The 2013 payroll will be similar – so the 2013 Mets, assuming the All Star Game leads to similar revenue – again figure to lose another 20 million or so.
In each case, not a big problem as SNY – majority with the same ownership group – makes a huge profit every year, well in excess of 20 million $, so this doesn´t change the overall outlook.
In 2014, there will be an automatic 10-12 million $ rise in annual revenue for the Mets due to the new TV deal. So whereas maybe a 75 million $ payroll would have meant “break even” for the Mets in 2013 with their currently low revenue, that´ll bump up to 85 million in 2014.
At the same time, the 2014 payroll – for now – projects to be below 55 million $. Do the math and basically 30 million $ are available to spend next winter. Without needing any sort of help from the SNY profit pool – which again – “morally” belongs to the Mets and not the Wilpons.
And if the Mets do invest 30 million next winter and add a couple of higher profile names to a youngish returning team, pretty sure that revenue isn´t too likely to decline again. Especially if that 2014 team proves to be more competitive than the 2013 team is likely to be.
Well Dooby do you know which months MAKE or BREAK the Attendance totals the most?
Even if you believe WInning is the KEY to Attendance, Which Months constitute the MOST attended part of a Season when your having a good season of Attendance?
Answer: August and September!
By giving up on a pretty good July two years in a row he basically ensured the two best drawing months of the season were going to be bad and by finishing bad it carries over into the next year and it’s sales of Season Tickets!
Yes they lost money…But you forget that when you spend on someone good you get MUCH MORE back in Revenue. A Player who makes 20 Mil draws a hell of a lot more than 20 Million of revenue from attendance and concessions!
People go to see that guy, That guy helps you win more games, That guy gives hopes to those fans who WANT to go but can’t justify it knowing the team’s poor chances before the purchase.
They cut out 18 Mil of Beltran Salary but lost much more than they saved when they did (the smartness of the deal notwithstanding).
Again this is an ENTERTAINMENT business and is STAR DRIVEN! Kids are good to have but they do not draw UNTIL they become STARS!
A Movie or play that pulls in a full house with Deniro in the leading role would not pull in the same attendance if Bruce Campbell (Evil Dead) was the lead! And who knows Bruce might even be better in it…Won’t matter because no one will go to see it to know he was!
Thats true with Plays, Movie, and all Sports!
Entertainment is a FAITH BASED economy!
You don’t go to see a movie you THINK may be bad or someone tells you IS bad!
You don’t go to a play that gets bad reviews…
Art films and independent films are sometimes MUCH BETTER QUALITY fare than the Movie Studios produce…Yet because they cast with unkown Actors being directed by unknown directors they can’t possibly draw as much as a crap production with Major Stars…
You go to see things that you THINK you might like even before you have a clue if you really do!
Those who say Winning draws attendance conveniently beypass WHY that might be true to a degree…If they win it helps people to think they might LIKE to see it!
Having Stars can do that and do it for a lot more than just August and September!
As I related in the past the analogy of the store….
If you have a store that can’t cover the bills and decide you need to cut overhead…
It is foolish to cut the stock that SELLS and keep the stock that does not!
Cause if you do that (as Sandy pretty much did) there is NO REASON to go to the store AT ALL anymore!
The key to smart downsizing in any business is to find ways to cut overhead that has ZERO IMPACT on revenue….
We didn’t do that we took the EASY CUT route!
We decided to stop carrying our top selling brands…
We did it at the most crucial time of the season where people decide what to do with the latter part of thier summer after doing all the other things you do in summer have been done and your looking for something different that doesn’t require lots of Travel!
And it sure doesn’t help inspire consumer confidence when the guy in charge of the product goes on TV and tells his Customers…You Know what we are not good enough to try….Which when translated in the mind of the consumer says “Your Not good enough to go see and spend money on”
Now you lost half a season of whatever it is you were drawing based on the team you had….
Last year we were actually winning and keeping pace with attendance from the previous year….
Until we went from Buyers to maybe sellers (when the trade Hairston rumors started)
Then Attendance dropped drastically as to the point that we lost more money than we cut!
The issue you seem to miss here is that whatever you think attendance might rise in 2014 it’s STILL starting from whatever it declines from this year!
And until peple believe again which may not come until they actually Buy some SIGNIFICANT talent or make the Playoffs that could mean they don’t even draw more than they had when they had Reyes and Beltran….
People are QUICK to not go….They are much SLOWER in coming back unless you do something spectacular to restore thier faith!
Beltran and Martinez did that in 2005….
So ask yourself who are you getting next offseason that can do what they did?
I guarantee you Chone Figgins isn’t it!
as soon as college football / NFL season starts….braves fans were choosing that over baseball…the south is def football land.
Matt -
Really good points you made.
I agree with most – but I disagree with the foundation of the argument that this is the way the ML is going to operate in the future.
I think this is the way Selig wants baseball to look but that doesn’t mean that all the owners are going to cooperate. There will always be a few in the crowd that will try to buy the World Series. And some will be successful.
Indeed, Selig was brought in to fix the finances – not to put a better team on the field. But he wasn’t brought in because of a new direction. Rather he was brought in because Wilpon got taken for a ton of money in a ponzie scam – and had wrapped the team’s finances around that.
For a team to make money in this day and age they need a competitive team on the field year in and year out. Sandy has gone in the wrong direction for the past two years and it will take another two years to dig the Mets out of Hole that Sandy’s actions have put them in.
The Mets have some good righties in the minors. But what about the position players? We now have a prospect catcher but we had to give up the current Cy Young winner to get him.
There could have been a more moderate approach with fixing the finances than letting Reyes go and trading Pagan for nothing. Those moves have ruined the current team and as much as people want to tip their cap to Sandy for the direction the team is taking – he has taken some giant steps backwards with his decisions.
There will be no major attendance revenue coming in this year and there is a big question mark over next year.
People can say what they want about Omar – but his big FA signings filled the stadium. His vision of opening the Mets to the world markets meant a ton of untapped money and young fans coming into the team. All that is gone.
How many young people want to watch a mediocre team? You’ll find many of them will gravitate to the Yankees and thus create another generation of Yankee fans.
While many feel that Sandy is rebuilding for the future – I think he is being penny wise and pound foolish right now.
By the way – check out Reyes’ replacement at shortstop. Tejada is currently batting .100. What’s up with that?
Teams will always operate based on thier ability to earn over anything Seligula or the small market teams want….
The only REAL way for Seligula and the SMTs to get what they want is to institute a Salary cap like the one the NFL has installed and the Players will simply never agree to that in a CBA.
They don’t even like the Luxury Tax because they think that inhibits teams from paying top dollar and the money that goes to the smaller market teams that is meant to make up for that inhibition is not REQUIRED to be spent on other players which is why the Luxury tax system has had a hard time working as it was intended when the League an MLBPA agreed to it.
You mean the revenue sharing money? It is now required that that money be spent on players. That was a change in the new CBA.
Also, the conversation keeps steering towards “on field product” but I maintain the point of this article was that one of Aldersons most prominent innovations was to distance the office of GM (in practice) from player procurement and player development, thereby elevating and availing his office the powers to insulate his baseball operations from undue influences that may detract or otherwise hinder their operation.
This is potentially a change that could benefit the Mets for years to come no matter who the GM is.
The “GM” as we’re defining the entity in this discussion thread is really Depotesta and Ricciardi. Whether or not their exploits result in a winning team (tlagee your point is well taken — so far they’ve arguably done more harm than good) is not really my point, my point is that by altering the Mets’ organizational structure, primarily by assuming the role of CEO/Chief Financial Officer, Alderson may have addressed some of the institutional dysfunction that has plagued the Mets for decades.
Yes Matt they have to spend AS MUCH as they get in the revenue share…..
But the whole point of the Revenue share was to get them to spend that share ON TOP of what they already were spending….
What Actually happened was they decreased the amount of the Earnings they spent and simply added enough spending to keep the payroll number higher than whatever they got from the RevShare….
The idea was a team spending 50Mil in Salary and got 50 Mil in Rev Share was supposed to spend closer to 100 Mil and what really happens is they spend the 50 plus another 10-20 of thier own money so they can comply with the RevShare terms.
Lets say the Pirates spent 50 Mil to make a team and then got 20 Mil in Rev Share to spend…
They would spend the same 50 Mil, claim they spent all the RevShare they got (They spent more than 20 Mil right) and pocketed the money they USED to spend instead….
It never really did what the rule intended it to.
“The idea was a team spending 50Mil in Salary and got 50 Mil in Rev Share was supposed to spend closer to 100 Mil and what really happens is they spend the 50 plus another 10-20 of thier own money so they can comply with the RevShare terms.”
Metsie,
I have to look it up in the CBA but I believe this practice is specifically addressed — this in essence is what the Marlins have been doing with their revenue sharing money for a while and the new regulations, which call for detailed budget disclosures to MLB, forbid it if I’m not mistaken.
I’m not claiming to know the CBA in and out either…
Something like this rule has been a part of previous CBAs though and thats essentially what happened….
Maybe they tightened up the rule a bit but it still is not going to bring Salary parity in the least…
I’m sure there will still be a few teams spending very little and using the RevShar for a big portion if not half of thier Salary.
We will see what happens but I’m not hopeful of seeing any credible difference…
Cause the spenders will inflate payroll as soon as the Ticket take allows it and while the average MLB payroll will go up there will still be a big gap between spenders and non spenders.
Matt, you have constructed an interesting theory, but it’s mostly based on supposition. Here are areas where I think you’ve stretched too much:
1. The Mets, as of 2010, have been essentially an MLB operation under virtual MLB oversight with Sandy Alderson a de facto appointee.
Like some others have already said in reply to you, there is no evidence of this. I don’t believe for a second that Alderson was “appointed” to be GM of the Mets, Did Selig ask Alderson to interview for the Job? Yes. Did he also encourage the Wilpons to hire him? Yes. But there is no evidence that the Wilpons were forced or told to hire Alderson.
2. His job, presiding over this financial and organizational overhaul, has one purpose — to facilitate profitability … Alderson’s mission, was not to create a winning product in New York or to bring a World Series to Flushing, his mission was to put the NY Mets organization back on the path to profitability. That’s it, nothing else.
I also don’t believe this is true. If you listened to him during his introductory news conference he talked pretty excitedly about his hopes of building a WINNER here. He was very enthused about it. I don’t’ think he’s a good enough actor to have merely spun his way through that entire news conference based on some phony prepared script. He pretty much said if it weren’t for the opportunity to run a big market team in NY with the ability to spend, he would not have taken the job. So that doesn’t jive with this part of your theory.
3. What Alderson has essentially done is adapted the Mets to life under the new CBA ahead of just about every other major league club, while relegating almost a third of the 2014 budget to the “available but untapped” column.
There is a major problem with this idea – Alderson was hired more than a year prior to the new CBA agreement, which wasn’t finalized by both sides until late November 2011. While no doubt some of the concerns of both the owners and union had been percolating around in the months prior to that agreement, there is no way either side knew back in October of 2010 what the nature, full extent, and implications of changes in the new CBA would be.
Alderson has cut the payroll and tightened finances because of Madoff and the Mets owners’ financial mess. That was the primary reason – not any CBA changes that were to come more than a year after he was hired.
4. Alderson is not a player acquisition guy, he’s not a “baseball” guy … he’s a businessman and a lawyer.
He’s both. I don’t understand how you can say he is not a baseball guy when he was GM of Oakland for many years.
5. That’s it, that’s all he’s had to do. Slash, burn, and redistribute with a focus on the minors. That’s all he did in San Diego and that’s pretty much all he’s doing here.
Factually that’s incorrect. Just the opposite happened. The payroll actually went up in SD in 2006 and again in 2008. It only went down in 2009, and Sandy left the Padres in March of that year. So this idea that he was brought to SD to “slash” and “burn” is not supported by any facts.
6. I think he’s seen the future and investing heavily in pricey veterans isn’t a big part of it.
Methinks his current plan is shaped mostly by two things (a) the financial mess arising from Madoff and the Picard lawsuit and (b) his own pragmatic nature. Remember, when Sandy first came aboard, he said one of his plans was to put more resources into the draft, and that going above slot wouldn’t be an issue. After the new CBA was signed, he made some comments as to how they had to change course. This supports the idea that Sandy did not know what the new CBA would bring, and also that he expected to spend more money in the draft when he was initially hired – and not to cut expenses.
7. It’s really Paul DePodesta and J.P. Ricciardi who are in charge of the players
Do you know this for a fact? You’re just speculating, right? Sure, those two likely do most of the grunt work now, but I doubt that Alderson doesn’t get heavily involved when it comes to acquiring all key players. I bet he’s making most of the final decisions too.
8. Whether or not the Mets win now or later really doesn’t matter in this respect.
Alderson wants to win as much as anyone. It’s almost an insult to him to say he took the job just to be a hatchet man, He wanted to win from day one. But it was like entering a formula one race with a Volkswagen Beetle. The mess Sanday inherited due to Madoff, the bloated and inflexible payroll, and the weak farm system gave him too little to work with to affect a faster turnaround.
9. But the structure, the lattice, remains.
Bottom line is that you think this “lattice” was a grand master plan Sandy had for the Mets even before he came on board, and that it was geared toward making the Mets viable under a new CBA which wouldn’t even be formulated until a year later. But I believe this “lattice” was not premeditated long in advance – and that it developed as a combined result of the growing financial issues Alderson discovered when he arrived and by his own pragmatic nature.
Moreover, it’s not out of the question that should Sandy leave, whoever succeeds him blows that lattice structure to bits, putting the Mets back in the same hole they were in when Sandy arrived. There is no assurance that whoever takes over for him will run the team the same way. There is no assurance that the Wilpons won’t screw up again and hire a spend-thrift, short-sighted ‘GM who neglects the farm system. Hopefully they’ve learned their lessons. I think they’ll be more selective in the future, but you never know.
As for DePodesta and Ricciardi, I’m not sure either are suitable candidates to be the next Mets GM. I especially have my doubts about Ricciardi because of his questionable track record with past player acquisitions. I’m hoping they look elsewhere for whoever succeeds Alderson.
Metro, of course all of this (1 and 2 in particular) is speculation (reading the tea leaves? between the lines?). No one was ever going to come out and say anything close to this.
I actually believe in the basic idea (the double agent part). But, I don’t think that Sandy did not want to (or care about winning). More like it was not “job 1″, which was stabilize the team and keep the owners afloat. Very much a ST focus to keep them around long enough to worry about the long term!
Van – Whether or not Sandy was imposed upon the Wilpons, the job for any GM would be to “stabilize” a team that is on shaky ground. That would be the only prudent thing for any GM to do before moving ahead. So I see that role as being more common sense – something that comes with the territory of being GM rather than part of some exceptional grand master plan. And I do not think anyone told Alderson he had to keep the owners afloat. That was not part of his job description. It was up to the Wilpons themselves to buckle down, hire the consulting firm, and sell the minority shares in order to get back on their feet. Alderson had little to do with all that. The Wilpons were kept afloat by those actions they took on their own as well as by the favorable outcome in the Picard lawsuit, obviously something Alderson also had zilch to do with.
As for reading tea leaves, we will have to see if there is anything to it. I highly doubt it. And while no one would come right out and say Sandy was forced on the Wilpons, gossip and stories do get around. If there is something to it, we would likely have heard some rumors to that effect by now. But all we have is pure speculation at this point. I just don’t buy it.
Hey Metro -
Really well thought-out post.
However, I don’t buy much of what you wrote. I could go line by line and refute it like you did to Matt but I’d rather focus in on one central theme – That Alderson wants to win as much as anyone.
You wrote:
“Alderson wants to win as much as anyone. It’s almost an insult to him to say he took the job just to be a hatchet man, He wanted to win from day one. But it was like entering a formula one race with a Volkswagen Beetle.”
Well, it would have been a Volkswagen Beetle with a 30 home run – run producer – in Beltran, a rather good centerfielder in Pagan, one of ML’s best shortstops in Reyes and a 20 game Cy Young winner.
He traded Beltran and Dickey for two minor leaguers, traded Pagan for nothing and didn’t make Reyes an offer.
You say that it’s almost an insult to call him a hatchet man but in the two years + that he’s been here he has cut away over a third of the Mets payroll and with it any semblance of a competitive team. So I guess that the word “almost” comes into play here. I doubt he would be insulted with the truth.
He has no ties to New York. He has no loyalty to the fans. He is a businessman.
You could argue that he is a baseball man – but even that description is a bit of an overstatement.
There is no outfield to speak of. Now correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t it the job of the GM to field a competitive team? Isn’t it his job to put some qualified major leaguers out on the field?
Sandy is starting his third season – Of the team that is actually going to be on the field on opening day – how many good players has Sandy brought in since he’s been here?
Well you might argue that this oft injured minor league catcher is coming up soon. Yup – at the cost of our 20 game winner. And Beltran – who hit 30 dingers last year and is a premier run producer has been replaced by Wheeler – who may or may not have an eventual impact on the team.
My point is that it doesn’t take a ton of baseball brains to replace one of the league’s top run producers and a cy young winner with two players who have never played in the ML.
Right now the team is in disarray – and I for one would certainly not bestow the title “Baseball Man” on Sandy while the title ‘Hatchet Man” is still available.
He traded Beltran and Dickey for two minor leaguers, traded Pagan for nothing and didn’t make Reyes an offer.
Beltran was going to be a free agent. Where was Alderson going to get the money to resign him for 2012? Who said he even had serious interest in returning at the time? I know he said he’d like to return, but what else is he going to tell reporters when they ask? Better to trade him when he did since he couldn’t get any draft compensation back for him if Beltran walked after 2011.
Pagan had an awful 2011. I can’t find much fault with trading him when they got Ramirez back. The fact that Ramirez had a lousy 2012 couldn’t be foreseen. He had been a very good pitcher for the Giants. Heck, I remember some saying right after that trade that Rimirez would be the Mets new closer, lol.
Reyes was made an informal offer, but he turned it down to take a bigger contract from Miami. Do you really believe the Mets should have given him that same money?
Dickey is another matter. The Mets obviously could have retained him and I was for that. But I also like the return they got back for him a lot. They traded maybe 2-3 years of of a top starter for a possible 6+ years of a top catcher. Seeing how scarce good catchers are via free agency, and how much of a hole that position was throughout the organization, it was a good trade. They traded current wins for future ones.
So, all in all, I don’t see where Sandy gave away wins where he didn’t have.
but in the two years + that he’s been here he has cut away over a third of the Mets payroll and with it any semblance of a competitive team
Most of that was forced upon him by the Madoff mess and the underperforming contracts he was left with. First, the budget would have shrunk regardless, whether Omar stayed or not. Do you really believe if Omar had stayed the Wilpons wouldn’t have severely limited his budget in 2011 and 2012 like they did with Sandy? The Mets lost tens of millions those years. The payroll HAD to be cut. If it weren’t, the Mets might still be in a deep hole in terms of their finances. The idea that cutting the budge to this levels was Alderson’s grand plan is ludicrous. He in fact said when he first came that he saw a number of around 125 million as a reasonable level of payroll for this team. Second there were a lot of underperforming contracts. So, of course Alderson had to get rid of those.
He has no ties to New York. He has no loyalty to the fans. He is a businessman.
How does having ties to a team’s town make you a good GM? LOL. Did Jon Daniels have ties to Dallas? Did Friedman have ties to Tampa Bay? I really don’t understand that logic at all. And how can you say Sandy has no loyalty to Mets fans? Give your proof of that. And, so what if he is a businessman? That makes him a BETTER GM if he can also handle and understand the business side of things.
You could argue that he is a baseball man – but even that description is a bit of an overstatement.
Says who? Just saying it doesn’t make it true. His vast experience running Oakland and then being CEO of the Padres gives him tremendous experience with the baseball side of things.
There is no outfield to speak of. Now correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t it the job of the GM to field a competitive team? Isn’t it his job to put some qualified major leaguers out on the field?
Sure it is. But when your owners limit your spending to the degree they did the first two years Sandy was GM, there is just so much one can do. And Alderson did try to get Bourn and Upton this past winter, but the prices were just too high. As for having qualified major leaguers out on the field, not every team has one at every position. The Yankees, for example, have a hole at catcher, while the Phillies have holes in the OF like the Mets do.
how many good players has Sandy brought in since he’s been here?
Given that Sandy didn’t have money to “buy:” players the way Omar bought Beltran, Pedro and even Delgado (salary dump by Marlins), he was limited to trading for players. So far he’s done pretty good with Wheeler, D’Arnaud and Syndergaard, even though none of those three are proven commodities yet. But, ALL 3 are elite prospects. So they all have a good chance to be successful mainstays for a long time. Unlike the short term benefits the Mets got for Pedro and the trade for Delgado.
My point is that it doesn’t take a ton of baseball brains to replace one of the league’s top run producers and a cy young winner with two players who have never played in the ML.
No, but it DOES take a ton of baseball savvy to replace a 34-year-old soon-to-be Boras free agent with one of the top 5 pitching prospects in baseball … and a 38-CY Winner with one of the top 2 catching prospects in all of baseball PLUS another elite right-handing pitching prospect. I don’t believe Omar would have done nearly as well trading both. He would have gone for quantity over quality — as well as proven but older players over prospects.
Right now the team is in disarray – and I for one would certainly not bestow the title “Baseball Man” on Sandy while the title ‘Hatchet Man” is still available.
The team is in a lot better shape than when Omar left it — the “team” being ALL aspects of the Mets including the minors. Only the OF is in real disarray. And the rotation and organizational pitching depth is far better. Sandy has been BOTH baseball man and hatchet man with the Mets. The latter has been by necessity and not of his own choosing. If you choose not to see it that’s your choice.
Metro,
You remind me of my friend Bill. very thorough … like a professor grading a paper.
Not sure where to begin without getting bogged down in minutiae, so I will only maintain that my broader premise, that Alderson’s restructuring addresses several key organizational deficits and specifically targets the Mets’ institutional dysfunction when it comes to ownership insinuating influence over baseball operations, holds true. How do I know? Because Alderson is very clearly in charge, so much so that the Wilpons can’t even get him to spend money they are giving him. That’s a key piece of evidence right there that things have been fundamentally altered at the top.
Now yes, a new GM could come in and blow the whole thing up, but if it is more efficient, if it is sustainable and streamlined, why reinvent the wheel? Just for the hell of it? I don’t see that happening unless ownership again insists on being part of the decision making process … which would be bad. The hope is that this succeeds and the Wilpons finally see the error in their ways and put an end to their meddlesome tendencies for good. There is a ton of stuff trickling out both from omar and duquette and others about just how meddlesome Jeff Wilpon was … it was pretty bad.
Hi Matt — Yes, I do think Sandy has addressed many of the organization’s key deficits. But I disagree with you that ownership’s influence over baseball operations was a major problem in the past. Their major problem is that they simply hired the wrong GMs. GMs who didn’t value the farm system the way Sandy & Co. do. Who didn’t care about building a strong farm system that could continually feed talent to the major league club. I think Phillips and Omar saw the farm system equally as a source of trading chips, and in some instances devalued its importance. So, no, it’s not that the Wilpons told Phillips and Omar what to do. (They essentially had complete autonomy for most of their regimes.) It’s that they hired men who didn’t believe in the importance of the farm system the way Sandy & Co. do. To some extent the financial conditions at the time — being flush with Madoff money — enabled GMs like Philips and Omar to spend more freely. But times have changed.
Again, as I said in my initial reply to your piece, the reason you are seeing so much financial restraint is Alderson’s own pragmatic nature as well as the recent fiscal crisis due to Madoff.
Now yes, a new GM could come in and blow the whole thing up, but if it is more efficient, if it is sustainable and streamlined, why reinvent the wheel? Just for the hell of it?
No, they wouldn’t blow it up for the hell of it. They might blow it up because they didn’t have the restraint that Sandy has. For example lets look at Bourn. If someone else had been GM, maybe they decide to throw caution to the wind, and they immediately top Cleveland’s offer and say “to hell with the draft pick.” So what I am saying is that all it will take is the Wilpons to hire the wrong GM again and everything could be set back, It’s really up to the Wilpons. They need to continue the track that Sandy has set the organization on. They need to hire the next GM who is in tune with Sandy’s strategy. And I think there is as least a 50-50 chance the Wilpons do that.
There is a ton of stuff trickling out both from omar and duquette and others about just how meddlesome Jeff Wilpon was
Really? Please give me a few links. Not just with someone’s unfounded speculation. But with actual facts. I have heard allegations of this for years. But no one ever comes out with facts.
Do the Wilpons sometimes exert their influence when it comes to a specific player. Yes. Just like most owners do. I think the Wilpons, for example, were responsible for Glavine resigning with the club when Omar was GM. And they were partly responsible for Wright’s extensions. (But by the same token, I’m not too sure Sandy wasn’t fully on board with extending Wright too.) So the Wilpons are no more meddlesome than most owners and whole lot less than some. That some being owners such as Loria and the Steinbrenners.
I’m serious. I want to see some facts and links that give specific examples where the Wilpons were responsible for making baseball decisions when it came to acquiring or jettisoning players. Example s where it wasn’t the GM’s decision, but the owners.
metro,
you’re kidding right?
http://risingapple.com/2010/09/21/yes-folks-jeff-wilpon-is-really-as-big-a-liability-as-we-imagined/
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2010/09/more-on-jeff-wilpon.html
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2010/09/hello-im-jeff-wilpon-and-im-a-habitual-meddler.html
http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/backpage/item_vNz2jNAkbByLyS1HTrMgQN#axzz2NtbBjvhb
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/10/jeff-wilpon-the-real-mets-general-manager.html
With all due respect metro, I think Jeff and the meddling has historically been a much bigger problem than you make it out to be.
Are you kidding, Matt? Please. I asked you for FACTS where ownership meddled in decisions on player acquisitions OR player jettisons. Instead you simply give me a list of links without specifying what is in each link.
I read the first one and there is NO instance where ownership told the GM who to sign, trade for, trade away, demote to the farm system, or let go. It merely has Jeff Wilpon making a joke to Omar in spring training. Huh?
So I’m not going to read a long list of articles if the only thing they do is bash an owner for making an offhanded joke to his GM.
Again, GIVE ME FACTS. Do you have any?
In fact, Matt, that first article you linked to was exactly what I said I didn’t want to see — unfounded speculation. There were NO facts in that article. The only thing that proved is that Jeff Wilpon makes bad jokes. Reading it was a waste of 3 minutes of my life that I will never get back, lol. It was a really bad article.
Look, I basically took the first 5 links that came up when I did a google search — but that itself should tell you something about this issue.
In those articles there were numerous “3rd party” comments about how Jeff isn’t merely meddlesome, but how it’s a really big problem.
Do you really think all this came about without some foundation?
Just out of the blue all these journalists started making up this notion that Jeff Wilpon is meddlesome? Just for the hell of it? I’d say that’s bordering on the absurd.
Just because Jeff didn’t leave a paper trail and just because previous GM’s haven’t shot themselves and their own future prospects in the foot by admitting they allowed themselves to be undermined doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Everyone and his grandma knows that the Wilpons have been some of the most meddlesome owners in baseball. If this weren’t the case, then why did Omar have to answer all those question when he was first hired about whether or not he’d have “full autonomy??” I specifically recall some recent comments by Omar in San Diego about how “things changed” after the Bernazard thing and how there was more interference and how became more difficult for him to do his job.
And all that stuff about running decisions past “the committee” during Duquette and specifically during the Kazmir debacle, that was all just made up? Or did I imagine that? lol …
C’mon now …
Matthew, sorry, but so far you have failed to give one incident where Mets ownership were the driving force in a specific player move (other than the acknowledged and obvious instances like Glavine).
And, yes, I know there has been a big perception problem on that count with Mets ownership. But in this case perception has not met up with reality.
And why is it so hard to find instances? We see them on other teams. It’s well known that the Steinbrenners meddled in the signing of Sheffield. We know that they meddled when it came to bringing A-Rod back. And we also know that they meddled with bringing in Soriano. In all 3 case, supposedly, Cashman was against those moves, but the owners went ahead with them.
And then there is Loria. I don’t think anyone doubts that he imposes his will on player moves against the GM’s wishes.
That’s what I’m looking for. Specific instances where the Wilpons told their GM to sign or demote or let go a specific player against the GM’s wishes. I have yet to hear of a single instance.
And this is a different matter from people simply not liking Jeff Wilpon. He may very well tell stupid jokes. But who the **&^& cares? Telling good jokes is not a prerequisite of being a good owner.
As for Doubleday, he hated the Wilpons. Period. But even he never accused the Wilpons of interfering with specific player moves.
As for Bernazard, YES, after that fiasco, some autonomy was taken away from Omar. And I’ve mentioned this before. But then there was good reason for it. And all I can say is thank the lord for that.
And why did Omar make a point of saying he would have full autonomy when he was first hired? Because the Wilpons tried to hire him to be co-GM prior to that and he refused. They initially didn’t trust him to have full autonomy and wanted him to share power with Duquette. So that’s why a big issue was made of it in 2004 when he was made a different offer with full autonomy.
“Mr. Jeff Wilpon has decided that he’s going to learn how to run a baseball team and take over at the end of the year… Run for the hills, boys. I think probably all those baseball people will bail… Jeff sits there by himself like he’s King Tut waiting for his camel.”
You read the above and it is painfully clear that Jeff has been insinuating his influence if not overtly dictating courses of action for a long time, Doubleday wouldn’t just pull this out of a hat without some basis.
Bam, smoking gun:
http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/gm-caught-middle-wilpons-meddle-article-1.650278
And, yes, Duquette was an exception because he was always an INTERIM GM. I’ve even mentioned that exception before. The Wilpons certainly did meddle when it came came to Kazmir.
But again, For the majority of Omar’s reign (except for after Rubingate), for all of Sandy’s reign, and for all of Philips’ reign, the Wilpons did NOT meddle in specific player moves except for a very few well known instances (ie, Glavine, Wright’s extensions, maybe, and things like that). But almost all players acquired, demoted, signed, and traded by Omar, Philips and Sandy were all done because those GMs wanted to do it.
Your “exceptions” are kind of piling up don’t you thing? Especially in light of the fact that it is common knowledge in most baseball circles that the Wilpons are some of the most meddlesome owners around.
And it’s not just a matter of the Wilpons meddling, its the whole organizational structure. Remember the gang of 3? Who was it? Franco Leiter and … (can’t remember the third) but they also had “ownership’s ear” and they successfully undermined Valentine. After Valentine got fired Phillips’ days were numbered as well and HE was undermined and eventually fired. So then Duquette was never really in charge because he was “interim?” and Omar was in charge until “Rubingate?” Please, this organization has been plagued with dysfunction at the top for decades. Why? Because they are run by dysfunctional owners … something just aint right with a guy who invests 500 million in a friend’s “investment firm” without some reasonable due diligence. It amazes me that these guys are as rich as they are, they must be really really good with real estate because they sure don’t strike me as being competent in any other way.
NO Matt, they are not. They are still the exceptions. Not the rule. Lets look at every year since 2000. Here are the exceptions:
2004 (interim-GM)
July 2009-2010 (post-Rubingate)
So, every other time, the GM has had full autonomy:
2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, first-half 2009, 2011, 2012.
So, full autonomy is the rule. Meddling is the exception.
Sorry, but thems the facts!
(And again, outside of those exceptions, the owners only meddle when there is a player like Glavine or Wright they ask the GM to retain … or someone gets into hot water.)
And bottom line Matt, is every team’s ownership more or less operates this way in terms of personnel moves — except that some have a reputation for meddling even more like the Yankees and Loria.
If you want to know an ownership group that has been accused of worse than the Mets recently, it’s Boston.
Again, I myself have mentioned the Duquette exception. But what’s interesting is that you have to go back almost 10 years ago, to an interim GM, to find the last real instance where the owners meddled in a player move against the GM’s wishes.
You yourself admitted that after Rubingate things changed for Omar (they did, we all know it).
There hasn’t been any meddling in the last 3 years because of Sandy … which again was one of the main points of my article. He’s put the office of GM between baseball operations and ownership.
Yes, there was meddling after Rubingate (and I’ve said that before in the past) — but then there was a good reason for it. The point being until Rubingate, Omar had complete autonomy. The point being, that full autonomy is the modus operandi of the Wilpons unless special circumstances arise, and I don’t think anyone would argue that Rubingate wasn’t a special circumstance.
I just disagree with you when you claim that Sandy imposed some sort of different working relationship with the owners. He did not. He himself said he still has to get all major decisions cleared by the owners. Just like almost ALL GMs have to do.
You can continue to believe otherwise. We will just have to agree to disagree.
Metro,
thing is, if you get enough exceptions, then the exceptions become the rule.
Matt, right. But in this case the exceptions are still RARE.
I’ll repeat it for you … since 2000:
Meddling:
2004 (interim GM)
2nd half 2009 and 2010 (post-Rubingate)
No Meddling:
2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, first half 2009, 2011, 2012
So, the norm is no meddling, Meddling is the exception.
While I don’t dispute in any way your assertion that the Owners Meddle (they ALL meddle to some degree)
I notice that all those who said Duquette had the baseball savy and called him a Solid Baseball guy have yet to give him a call to work for them….
He got a gig for two years with Baltimore after he left us but he resigned (not sure why) and hasn’t worked for anyone since….
If you want to point to the Wilpons making a mistake it was in not replacing Phillips when he had to take his first leave and Cashen served as the interim…
That was the time to make a clean sweep and start fresh with new management team entirely.
As for thier Meddling it’s more about WHERE they stuck thier nose in….
While you can find moves they may have forced to happen or stopped it was thier lack of paying attention to the antics in the office that hurt them most!
The fact that they have never UNTIL NOW made a clean break from the 86 Management (just about everyone they have promoted came from within) is the key to thier lack of success.
Phillips was a good GM and he might have been a lot better if he was AT his desk instead of on it….
Metro,
Here is a very good analysis of the Kazmir thing, if you only click on one of my links, click on this one >>>
http://www.flushinguniversity.com/moxie/columns/the-culprits-fred-and-jef.shtml
What strikes me as apparent in reading this is not just that there was a lot of influence and mistrust and undermining and people with “ownership’s ear,” but that the organizational hierarchy, the command structure which is so crucial in any organization, was so blurred you got the sense that no one was quite sure how a decision chain progressed or who was even really in charge.
This sort of thing is gone under Alderson — if he’s fixed anything he’s fixed this — and that is really the biggest point in my article. As an ex-military guy I can tell you there is nothing worse than a break or collapse in the chain of command — no one knows this better than Alderson. He has finally disambiguated a cumbersome and vague organizational hierarchy that has never functioned optimally and which has been chronically plagued by interference from “non-baseball” members of the organization (ownership). If you deny this to be the case, well then how was it Sandy put the kabosh on all of Jeff and Fred’s blabbering earlier in the spring about how the team had more money to spend when he said “just because we have money doesn’t mean we’ll spend it” ?
Just like everyone knew the Wilpons were meddlesome, everyone knows who is in charge now.
Again, Matt, I myself have frequently mentioned the Duquette/Kazmir exception when taking about this meddling point in the past. No one questions that. Again, you have to go back almost 10 years, to an interim GM to find the last case where the owners truly meddled in a player move against the GM’s wishes.
My point is that there has been no systemic meddling from the owners when it comes to player moves. Not with Phillips. Not with Omar. And not with Sandy. Do they meddle in other areas? Hell yeah. Just like other owners do. But when it comes to actual player moves, the Mets owners have been mostly hands off. What they do with Alderson is not much different from what they did with Omar. The difference is that these are two different GMs who hold two different philosophies … PLUS the experience of going through the Madoff mess which has changed the mindset of the owners. The whole environment of the team is different post-Madoff than it was when Omar arrived. This is out of necessity.
If you deny this to be the case, well then how was it Sandy put the kabosh on all of Jeff and Fred’s blabbering earlier in the spring about how the team had more money to spend when he said “just because we have money doesn’t mean we’ll spend it” ?
Huh? How did he put the kabosh on it? That won’t stop the owners from saying in the future that their is money in the pot to spend.
And, FYI, Alderson still has to clear all big player moves with the owners — JUST LIKE OMAR DID AND JUST LIKE ALMOST ALL GMS OF OTHER TEAMS HAVE TO DO!!!!!!!
There is not much difference between Sandy and Omar in terms of how they work with the owners. The big difference is the new financial climate the team is operating under because of Madoff.
In some respects, Fred has taken more of a backseat in recent years. But I think that’s due more to age and natural succession plans rather than anything else.
Like I said above, your exceptions are piling up …
1. Players undermining Valentine who had “ownerships ear”
2. Phillips undermined after Valentine got canned — again by players and others who supported Valentine.
3. Duquette undermined by his own scouts
4. The Kazmir debacle and the “decision by committee.”
5. Omar undermined post Rubingate.
Now you’re backtracking with “every ownership group meddles” except that’s not true, every ownership group doesn’t meddle.
Lets define the terms of this discussion shall we, what exactly are you arguing here,
A. That the Mets as an organization have NOT been plagued by dysfunction at the top?
B. That Alderson has NOT taken steps to mitigate this dysfunction through an organizational overhaul?
Because that’s all I’m saying, it’s pretty straight forward really.
Matt, I can’t you tell how many times I have mentioned these exception on this and other forums in the past, but it was at least dozens of times. I wish I had bookmarked a previous instance to show you know. But I didn’t know someone would make this an issue.
Here’s the salientn points. Even if you don’t believe I mentioned these exceptions in the past …
1) These are EXCEPTIONS and not the normal way the Wilpons run their business. Duquette was an interim GM. And Omar, after Rubingate, deserved to have someone look over his shoulder.
2) Exceptions also include instances like Glavine or Wright where the owners have a special affinity or relationship for a player.
3) Exceptions also include instances where players or coaches or personnel get into hot water — ie, the bleach incident or the instance where the special advisor said something nasty to Kim Ng. In such cases, the owners may fire someone themselves or insist the GM fire or release a player.
4) But for the most part, all the regular GMs under the Mets owners have had FULL AUTONOMY for player moves. That includes Phillips, Omar and Sandy.
5) So, Sandy is not doing anything much different in his relationship with the owners than what Omar did.
And, yes, every ownership group does meddle. Many more so than the Wilpons. Specifically Loria and the Steinbrenners.
Again, if you want to believe that something is brand new with how Sandy is working with the Mets owners, that’s your choice. We will have to agree to disagree.
Here’s another really ugly episode pointing to some pervasively dysfunctional organizational dynamics:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/willie-randolph-chance-mets-owners-undermining-coaches-article-1.294475
Matt, organizational dysfunction is NOT the same as ownership meddling in player moves. Two separate things.
You can have complete GM autonomy but organizational dysfunction as we saw with Omar.
In fact, that article says outright that Omar had the final say on keeping Randolph, even though others wanted him out.
And it was only when Randolph put his foot in mouth big time with the race and bigotry comments that his fate was sealed.
And of course big time Yankees fan Madden is going to write a one-sided article defending his ex-Yankees buddy Randolph.
And by the way, who hired Bernazard, Willie, Manuel and Acta??? Omar. Not the Wilpons, LOL.
Look, you don’t like the Wilpons. I understand that. But that doesn’t mean their previous GMs did not have FULL AUTONOMY when it came to player moves. Only under specific and limited circumstanced did they not. That’s the point.
Metro,
Let me just say, I appreciate the criticism (I really do, even though it may not seem that way) because I always end up learning stuff from these discussions.
Yes, lets agree to disagree, when reading that last Daily News link above about Bernazard and all the unbelievable craziness that abounded back then, coupled with Duquette and the Kazmir debacle, I just feel like no, this isn’t “normal,” this organization is pretty effed up and it doesn’t seem to matter who the GM is, there always seem to be these soap operas of dysfunction permeating the front office culture.
I see Alderson as being really different compared to his predecessors in this respect because he came at a time when the Wilpons were so weakened (financially) that their status as capable owners was being questioned while Alderson’s ties to MLB (tangible or not) gave him the appearance of a “fix it” guy, if not a sanctioned hatchet man. Alderson had (still has) the clout and gumption to stand his ground and unravel the Mets’ unwieldy and flawed organizational infrastructure, placing himself as “CEO/Chief Financial Officer” overseeing baseball operations, effectively insulating baseball operations from undue influence. I don’t think anyone has ownership’s “ear” under Alderson, but more importantly I don’t think it would matter if they did — clearly in the past it DID matter. I also don’t think I’m going out on a limb here in making this assertion, Alderson himself has stated on many occasions (early on) that he was in the midst of overhauling the Mets’ organizational structure from the ground up.
There is no NORMAL when it comes to ownership groups. The Wilpons only seem crazier to you because you are a Mets fan. You want examples where things have either been more dysfunctional and/or owners meddled more in player moves? The Steinbrenner Yankees. Henry’s group in Boston. Loria. And the Dodgers under McCourt.
Granted, momentous events like Madoff and the 2007-8 collapses have fueled this perception that the Wilpons are more monumentally inept than any other owner, but (1) that still has nothing to do with meddling in player moves and (2) in the case of Madoff, the Wilpons were victims and (3) in the case of the collapses that can happen to many as we saw with Boston and Atlanta just a few years later.
Bottom line is the Mets have given Sandy no more autonomy than they gave Phillips or Omar. Maybe Sandy is more assertive than Omar and Phillips were. But still, he has to go back to ownership to get final approval on all major player moves. Just like Omar and Philips had to. Just like almost all GMs have to.
Now, Sandy may run his own internal structure more efficiency and with less back stabbing than Omar or Phillips did. But that is a different matter. That has little or nothing to do with ownership. That has more to do with the people he places under him and the unwritten rules he puts in place.
It’s interesting you mention the Yankees, because while Steinbrenner was notoriously meddlesome, it wasn’t until his exile that a “window” opened for the front office reinforce the minor leagues so that they could build the core of players that catapulted them to a dynasty.
I see Alderson’s current tenure as similar in that his MLB ties give him clout to disentangle the Wilpons from baseball operations. I do believe Jeff has been a thorn in the side of just about every GM that has held the position. Fred and Jeff’s long standing and well known “open door” policy have been undermining the front office’s ability to function properly for years.
And lets not forget the impact of all this talk about Alderson eventually ascending to the Commissioner’s chair … I wouldn’t want to get on Sandy’s bad side if I were Fred — if I were Jeff I wouldn’t know any better, because, well, I’d be Jeff.
attention:
This discussion has officially been promoted to “epic” status, lol.
…
as you were.
Again, Matt, almost everything in your post was pure supposition (except the bit about the Yankees farm system and talk of Sandy possibly being commissioner one day).
This idea that Sandy has some special powers that were conferred on him by Selig is just your unfounded belief. I don’t believe it for a second.
And there was no banishment of the Wilpons by Sandy or MLB. Sandy still has to report to Jeff Wilpon, just like Omar had to.
MATTHEW – “Fred and Jeff’s long standing and well known “open door” policy have been undermining the front office’s ability to function properly for years.”
http://metsblog.com/metsblog/quote-the-mets-have-no-chain-of-command/
If your boss asked you to hire a friend of his who is an expert at something your division desperately needs, would you let your son (if he were so inclined) interfere with this expert’s ability to do his job?
Look, with the Alderson hire to some extend it was about credibility. Selig wanted to have something in place in the eventuality the Mets had to be prepped for a sale … remember Selig’s neighbor? Einhorn?
Alderson came HIGHLY RECOMMENDED from Bud Selig … Sandy is a baseball insider with major ties to MLB with credible experience performing organizational overhauls (Oakland, San Diego) … we haven’t had anyone with this kind of MLB clout in the GM’s chair since …
well since Frank Cashen.
The notion that this would have no impact on Jeff Wilpon’s “alleged” tendency to slither his way into the organizational fabric seems outrageously unlikely to me. As for whether Jeff actually is a nuisance and a distraction … well, again, we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one.
Matt — With your first statement, you’re assuming that the son interfered with the GM’s ability to do their job in the past when there is no evidence of it. You also assume that Selig “asked” the Wilpons to hire Sandy when he merely recommended that they do so.
And of course Selig wanted someone credible to head the Mets. But to say it was in preparation for a possible sale and then to mention Einhorm is ludicrous. Selig had NOTHING to do with Einhorn contacting the Mets on his own to try to buy a minority share.
The notion that this would have no impact on Jeff Wilpon’s “alleged” tendency to slither his way into the organizational fabric seems outrageously unlikely to me.
More supposition on your part. Fact is, Sandy still reports to Jeff Wilpon. Jeff Wilpon could fire Sandy tomorrow if he stepped out of line. He’d consult his dad, of course, because that’s just what he does all the time. But he’d have no hesitation to do it.
Look believe what you want. That’s your choice. I think you have a very active imagination and have spun a tale that just can’t be supported by facts. You have to rely on a mountain of speculation for your tale to be true.
just-da-damaja
thank you!
That link pretty much nails it.
Nails what? Still no accusation that the owners meddled with player moves. Still no facts that the Wilpons operated the way you think they did (with the rare exception of the interim GM and the post Rubingate circumstances).
Sorry but all Phillips says there is that there was open door policy, a situation that exists in many corporations.
Open door policy: It’s like an aquarium in science class that’s perfect for breeding a meddlesome atmosphere …
No chain of command, subordinates going to ownership, players undermining management, that sort of thing.
Ok at some point you are just going to have to admit that the Wilpon’s were meddlesome owners who ran a dysfunctional organization that lacked structure …
Metro, the evidence, both anecdotal and first hand, is overwhelming.
As are the lengths Alderson has gone to to mitigate this structural dysfunction.
The Mets front office has been screwed up for a very long time — we all know this!! What are we even arguing about ?? lol.
No Matt, sorry, but you still haven’t shown any facts to support your contention that the Wilpons meddled in player moves.
Were there internal politics? LOL, of course there were. There are in any organization. And I bet there are a lot of internal politics and even back stabbing right now in Sandy’s own structure. It’s human natures and it’s occurred in every company I’ve ever worked in,
Again. unless you show some proof that the player moves were not coming from Omar or Philips, then you really have no argument or case. Keep your theories. But that’s all they are. Theories.
OK fine,
Lets take the whole, “Wilpon meddled with player moves,” premise, lets call it a “theory” and lets bundle it up and set it aside for a moment …
lets take instead the following: “the Wilpons fostered a dysfunctional organizational dynamic lacking structure and protocol.” Because I can live with that too.
Are you claiming that the Wilpons have operated a sound and efficient organization? That they’ve run a tight ship? That there haven’t been staggering organizational failures? Pervasive breakdowns in protocol?
And are you further claiming that Sandy Alderson has NOT taken steps to remedy these imagined organizational deficiencies?
You are arguing with one tiny aspect of my premise — that the Wilpons meddled with player moves — you say they didn’t (even though there is concrete evidence that they did at least on 3 occasions) … but my broader thesis is that Alderson has fundamentally altered the Met organizational structure to mitigate some of the dysfunction that has plagued this organization in the past. I’m shooting fish in a bucket here Metro, any fan could have written my piece, I mean it’s pretty obvious that the Mets have had a pretty messed up organization for a while and it’s pretty obvious that Alderson has taken steps to try and fix it.
When it comes down to it, where in my article did I even accuse the Wilpon’s of meddling with player moves? It didn’t even come up. All I said was that Alderson is overhauling a dysfunctional organizational structure.
Matt –
Are you claiming that the Wilpons have operated a sound and efficient organization? That they’ve run a tight ship? That there haven’t been staggering organizational failures? Pervasive breakdowns in protocol?
No. No. Yes. Yes.
You will have to define and give examples of “staggering organizational failures” and “pervasive breakdowns in protocol” for me to comment any further on these particular items.
And are you further claiming that Sandy Alderson has NOT taken steps to remedy these imagined organizational deficiencies?
LOL, Matt, if they are “imagined” (and I do believe many of your claims are imagined) then how can Sandy remedy them?
but my broader thesis is that Alderson has fundamentally altered the Met organizational structure to mitigate some of the dysfunction that has plagued this organization in the past
And this is where I strongly disagree with you. Sandy has not implemented any broad restructuring of the corporate management structure. It is more or less the same as when he arrived, and he still reports to Jeff Wilpon. Just as Omar did. No difference.
He had no edict or power to do so either. He’s just their GM — with a big corporate structure above him.
I mean it’s pretty obvious that the Mets have had a pretty messed up organization for a while and it’s pretty obvious that Alderson has taken steps to try and fix it.
Yes, they have been messed up in these two areas and this is how they’ve been addressed:
1) The financial mess — The Wilpons hired a consultancy firm, cut costs, sold minority shares, and buckled down. This along with the favorable outcome in the Picard lawsuit has allowed them to save the sinking financial ship. Sandy had nothing to do with any of this. He did decide HOW to trim the team payroll, but the edict to trim it came down from the owners.
2) The baseball operations — Yes, Sandy has taken steps to fix this by trying to grow the farm system, and by trimming the payroll as ordered by the owners. He has also had to wait out the expiration of non-performing bloated contracts. In the meantime he has fixed the dimensions at Citi Field and tried to institute a better organizational philosophy when it comes to the acquisition, drafting and development of players. Part of that new philosophy I think is a more patient approach to player development. I do think some of the prospects were rushed too quickly by the previous regime.
When it comes down to it, where in my article did I even accuse the Wilpon’s of meddling with player moves?
In one of your replies above, this is what you said that started this: “…and specifically targets the Mets’ institutional dysfunction when it comes to ownership insinuating influence over baseball operations”
When you said “insinuating influence over baseball operations” I can only take that to mean you are saying they exerted influence over baseball decisions including player moves. This I totally disagree with. For the most part, with very few exceptions, the owners did not interfere with baseball decisions.** They gave their GMs full autonomy over who was drafted, signed, traded for, traded away, demoted or released. Obviously they dictated a budget, but how the GM used that budget was entirely up to them.
==============================
**About the only thing one can say is that they tried to adhere to slot. But Omar did go over slot many times. And many other teams generally adhered to slot and did well in the draft. That includes the Braves.
ugh,
ok, one last response then we’ll just have to “agree to disagree.”
Here is a report on the latest round of changes:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/mets-goodbye-exec-wogan-shakeup-article-1.1205807
Some of it is paring down and streamlining, some of the changes are more subtle, some aren’t. The biggest change is in the role of the GM himself. Alserson has in effect positioned himself as CEO overseeing the various departments under him. He is more like an actual administrator rather than a traditional GM in the player procurement mold, and before you deny this, bear in mind that Alderson, unlike Omar, was never a scout — Alderson’s skill set is precisely in the area of administration … now whether by design or happy coincidence it occurred to me that this shift at the top allows Sandy to act as a sort of buffer between his office and those of his assistants — ideally allowing them to perform their duties unencumbered. Now you insist that Jeff and his meddlesome ways have not been a problem, that the entirety of the NY Media establishment (and just about every Met fan I know) has fabricated this unfounded reputation from the thin air of Flushing, slandering this fine young executive … and that is your right. I don’t believe it for a second because I’ve been following Jeffie’s escapades for years and the evidence is overwhelming … I believe Jeff to be a meddlesome brat and a nincompoop.
Joe D’s link also elaborates on the changing role of the GM very nicely and meshes with what Alderson has employed here with the Mets. Incidentally Alderson did the same in San Diego where he had even less to do with player acquisition, where he was really not the GM at all but more a Chief Financial Officer. There are other changes to the Met organization as well such as resource allocation to minor league affiliates and uniformity of practice in player development across levels, but I’m not going to go into a litany of what Sandy Alderson has done since he came into office. I also do believe that Alderson, unlike his predecessors, has not (to date) tolerated any undue influence on baseball decisions from outside of his departments, he HAS established an iron clad chain of command, and he’s rendered “ownership’s ear” an obsolete medium, mostly because he has more MLB clout than just about anyone who has held his position not named Frank.
Also, i said I didn’t mention the Wilpons were meddlesome in my original article, but yes it was brought up in the comments.
Whew … ok, goodnight and have a pleasant tomorrow!
Matt, yes I am aware of the changes made just a few months ago. All Sandy is doing is reorganizing and streamlining the baseball operations — 2 years after he got to the Mets! So much for having that grand master plan you spoke of.
And it’s just the baseball side of things, as I said. He has no responsibility for the broader aspects of running the Mets — including stadium operations, communications and PR, etc etc. That’s what the CEO does. So, no, Alderson is not acting like the team’s CEO, You are completely wrong on that. He’s acting like a GM.
And, yes, I know Sandy has no scouting background — much like Jon Daniels, Andrew Friedman, and Theo Epstein. So? Sandy does have extensive experience being GM of Oakland, and that in and of itself gives him extensive experience working directly on player moves. So, despite his lack of a scouting background, it means nothing in the broad context of his job since he has a baseball background.
Now you insist that Jeff and his meddlesome ways have not been a problem, that the entirety of the NY Media establishment (and just about every Met fan I know) has fabricated this unfounded reputation from the thin air of Flushing, slandering this fine young executive
Actually, Mark Healey, a Mets fan who also has been a wire reporter, said pretty much the same things I am saying, I’m sure you’ve heard of him. I posted his article called “Peas in a Pod” that he wrote in 2008 in its entirety down below. It details both the 2004 Kazmir trade and the 2008 internal politics going on around the Mets in 2008 with Bernazard. Healey is speaking from his many sources and from his own experiences covering the team. I suggest you read it. Perhaps you won’t believe him, but I trust his take on these issues more than I do yours.
Joe D’s link also elaborates on the changing role of the GM very nicely and meshes with what Alderson has employed here with the Mets. Incidentally Alderson did the same in San Diego where he had even less to do with player acquisition, where he was really not the GM at all but more a Chief Financial Officer.
I have not seen a link from Joe D in this thread. Can you repost it? As for SD, I already busted your claim that Sandy was brought in there to cut the budget and be a hatchet man. As I said in my initial comment to your piece, the payroll actually went up 2 of the first 3 years Sandy was in SD. So much for trimming the fat! Only in 2009 did the payroll go down and Sandy left SD in March of that year.
And I believe Sandy was officially CEO in SD. But he does not have that title here.
You know all those “baseball” changes you listed as Sandy having implemented? Well Omar was in charge of the SAME things. Sandy is merely shaping the baseball operations how he wants them to be. And when a new GM succeeds him, that GM will alter the baseball operations to fit his plans as well.
and he’s rendered “ownership’s ear” an obsolete medium, mostly because he has more MLB clout than just about anyone who has held his position not named Frank.
See, that is totally fictitious and you have no evidence for that. He still goes to Jeff Wilpon to get approval to sign and trade players. Just like Omar did. Just like every GM in baseball does.
Just one final word, Matt. I do urge you to read that article by Healey. If anything, it places more blame on Fred Wilpon for meddling in the past than on his son. Maybe part of the problem is that Fred is a more charming and likable person. He also appears to be smarter than his son. But just because people like the father better, doesn’t mean they should shift the criticism to the son.
Metro,
I think we should take this thread out back and put it out of it’s misery …
PLEASE lets do that!
You aren’t going to convince me of the following:
1.That Jeff, a.k.a. “Fred” (they are one and the same problem as far as I’m concerned — backtracking by saying it was Fred who was to blame doesn’t do it for me) is not meddlesome … you say why should you believe me instead of the journalist you cite, I say why should I believe you and the ONE source who parrots the Wilpon’s story rather than THE ENTIRETY OF THE NY MEDIA ESTABLISHMENT ??!!
2.That Alderson, as an ex-military man and as an organizational and sports administration “expert” (he taught a class for crying out loud at U of Cal Berkely, Haas School of Business) has NOT taken steps to remedy / mitigate some of the dysfunction (the open door policies, the lack of command structure, the meddling and backstabbing) that has plagued this team for years … to imply this would be to imply he has neglected to address what has been a glaring issue for the Mets FOR DECADES! It is preposterous. Of course Sandy is going to try to improve/streamline/redefine roles in such a way that the Organization WORKS BETTER — it’s what ALL GM’s do — he’s just better at it than most because of his background. It’s a simple premise …
3.That Alderson’s background as a high level executive with MLB and his association with the Commissioner of baseball, who RECOMMENDED him, (there have even been stories in the press about how Alderson had to be convinced to take the job) … does not have an impact on his relationship both with ownership and his subordinates. It’s absurd, of course Alderson’s background and his significant ties to MLB are going to give him a certain amount of respect in the field, EVERY description of Alderson when he was first hired included something about how well regarded he is in MLB. lol … you don’t think that has an effect on how he is received? accepted? regarded? in his present position? C’mon now please. There is some very sound “speculation” that one of the reasons Alderson was recommended by Selig was because he’d give the Mets an aura of respectability in the even of a sale (it was not a foregone conclusion back then that the Wilpons would be able to hold onto the team) … all this stuff is imagined? He does not in fact have ties to MLB? He is not respected? He is not well regarded in his field? He was not recommended by Bud Selig? Because unless you’re denying all these things to be true >> THERE IS NO WAY THIS DOES NOT HAVE AN IMPACT ON HIS CURRENT ABILITY TO PERFORM THE FUNCTIONS ASSIGNED TO HIM!!!
fish in a bucket metro, fish in a bucket … I’m not making any outrageous speculative claims here, it’s all mostly common sense.
again to recap:
1. The Wilpon’s have been meddlesome … please, they just have been.
2. Alderson’s extensive business/administrative/military background uniquely qualifies him to improve the organization’s ability to function more efficiently and with less dysfunction.
3. Alderson was recommended by Selig, has major ties to MLB, and is widely respected in his field — this “clout” if you will inevitably effects his current ability to perform his duties.
sheeesh …
ok I’m out …
Have a nice day!
Good morning, Matt. Should we take this thread out into the woodshed and give it a whupping?
1) It was actually the superscouts who were the main culprits in the Kazmir trade. But Fred should get blamed because he hired Goldis and Livissey and empowered both. And here’s why you should care about distinctions between Fred and Jeff: One day pretty soon, Fred is going to be too old to keep running this team. Then it’s mostly Jeff’s job. Jeff may not be as charming and personable as his dad, but maybe he won’t be as destructive as Fred has been in running the team. Maybe he will have better judgment.
As for why to believe in Healey? Because his story is more substantive than any other media report I’ve seen. Healey has actually been a professional journalist, unlike many who write on blogs. And, as much as the mainstream media in NY likes to trash the Wilpons, even they have yet to provide substantive facts regarding “meddling” on the part of the Wilpons into BASEBALL decisions, apart from those few exceptions I’ve already mentioned and which are widely known. So the mainstream media can bark all they want, but they’ve yet to provide any real bite on this matter.
2) We agree that Sandy came and implemented his own baseball operations structure. That’s what ALL new GMs would likely do. But to think that he drastically changed more than that is fanciful. There is an entire structure above him which he likely has had no bearing on. That entire structure above him — which includes Fred and Jeff — continues to operate as they please. And Sandy still reports to Jeff.
‘
If there is less SOCIAL meddling by the owners these days, it’s likely because Fred has taken a more reserved role in the organization the last 5 years or so due to old age and the Madoff mess, which likely sucked up a good part of everyone’s time.
3) Respect is one thing. Power is another. So, of course, Sandy enjoys widespread respect throughout all of baseball for his past experience. No one questioned that. But you have in your mind conferred upon him powers which he simply does not have. You have imagined that he was empowered with an edict from Selig to overhaul the entire Mets organization when there is no evidence of that and he only holds the title of GM. His powers extend only to the on-field baseball operations. Just as Omar’s powers did.
I’m not making any outrageous speculative claims here, it’s all mostly common sense.
Yes, you are Matt. Not it’s not mostly common sense. You have taken what are facts and dressed them up with figments of your imagination. One day, when Sandy is no longer GM, hopefully he will write a book or otherwise talk about his past experiences including with the Mets. I think then you’ll realize he is NOT the grand general sent in to slash, burn and totally overhaul an organization — but perhaps only half of that. We both agree job #1 for him is to overhaul, strengthen and grow the baseball operations. You just believe his job priorities encompass so much more.
Look, believe what you want. You’ve done a great job here and have spun a credible-sounding tale. But bottom line is that it’s mostly speculation. I can’t believe it.
You have a nice day too.
Metro,
This is one of the best streams I have ever read on this blog, so thanks for the insightful comments. I agree with most of your positions, although some counterpoints are accurate as well. I do not agree that prior issues were simply hiring the wrong GM. The problems were caused primarily by ownership. All GMs make good moves and bad, and I don’t want to rehash Phillips’ moves or Omar’s moves. Omar made his share of mistakes, but he was intent on using international signings to offset draft picks lost by signing FAs. The Wilpons balked at investing top dollars to sign the premium internationa FAs. Also, Omar’s drafts/system provided several of the “core” players on the team today – 60% of the starting pitchers in Niese, Harvey, and Gee, along with the 1B, 2B, SS, and closer. None of this group is considered to be the reason why the Mets are not currently competitive. That is not a bad crew to inherit. We all know that spending on “second generation” FAs is not the answer, but it needs to be done and can be done to keep a team competitive without mortgaging the future. Alderson has failed in this regard, and the deficits of the current product reflect that.
Hi TJ, sorry for the delay in replying. I agree with many of your points except for a few:
*I know the Wilpons didn’t like to go over slot (though Omar often did) but I’ve never read that they limited his spending for international free agents. This is the first I am hearing about it. My impression was that Omar got a budget for the draft and IFAs and he was free to apportion it as he wanted to. And if he needed to go over budget, he merely had to ask the Wilpons. Do you have any proof he wanted to sign some IFAs but couldn’t?
*Yes, Omar left a few nice pieces from the farm system that the Mets are depending on now. But he could have done better with that farm system, and it was woefully short of catchers, outfielders and arms that could be converted to the bullpen. It was a mediocre farm system at best.
*Yes, Alderson needs to supplement the team with free agents or trades to fill in the holes. But this is really the first year since he’s been GM he has excess money to spend, and even then, it’s not too much. So lets see what he does between now and the beginningof 2014. The honeymoon is over and he needs to produce. And maybe that will come in the form of Wheeler, d’Arnaud and others currently in the minors who he acquired.
Thanks Fonzie but I still think Jeter is a bubble man LOL — if Biggio is one, and that’s what many say he is!
Fonzie, it all depends where your cutoff is. If Biggio is a bubble man, then so is Jeter. Their production is not so different. And Jeter always hit in stronger lineupes on stronger teams and, in later years, in the best hitters park. Don’t know why you would say Jeter is not a compiler but Biggio is. And it is quite unfair to throw PEDs allegations at Biggio without any evidence. You are doing exactly what guys like Chass and others do to Piazza.
LOL, at least you are consistent with the PEDs. So I respect that. Your bar for accusing players is evidently much lower than mine, but that is your prerogative. I just think all players deserve the benefit of the doubt unless there is clear evidence that they juiced.
LOL
the reason Biggio is on the bubble and not Jeter…is because Jeter got 300 more basehits in 1,000 LESS PA
Jeter led the league in basehits at the tender age of 38
Biggio was hanging on to get to 3,000
can we put this issue to rest now?
LMAO!
Biggio does not have 1000 more PAs than Jeter.
Try 609.
Boy, you are so challenged when it comes to reading numbers on a page. Or with math.
Try again. LOL.
awesome, so Jeter had about 2 more seasons worth of hits ( 300 more hits ) and did it with 600 less PA
somehow to u, he and Biggio are both bubble candidates !!!
LMAO
LMAO. Do you put down incorrect information on purpose? Or is math such a problem that you just can’t subtract?
The difference in their hits is not 300, lol, it’s 240. So it’s much less than 2 season’s worth of hits. Maybe it’s like 1.2 or thereabouts.
Many say Biggio is a bubble man. If he is, then so is Jeter.
Biggio’s last 2 years in baseball, he only had 260 hits..COMBINED
Jeter almost had that in his last season ALONE
and the reason people said Biggio was a bubble player was his performance steadily declined as he stayed in the league and he barely got to 3,000 hits
his last 8 years, he avg .268
His first 10 years in the league, he won 5 SS, 3 GG and avg almost .300, finished in the MVP voting 5 times
Now compare that to Jeter…who at age:
31 hits .309
32 hits .343
33 hits .322
34 hits .300
35 hits .334
38 hits .316
If Jeter continues on this pace and retires at Biggio’s age ( 41 ) , its possible he gets to 4,000 hits
Thats the difference between someone barely getting to 3,000 and someone blowing past that mark
still wanna find a new way to make your argument look futile?
#BeMyGuest
No, the reason people said Biggio is a bubble player is because they don’t think 3000 hits is special enough to warrant the HOF.
As for Jeter’s BA in his later years, look at the lineup he hits in, look at the team he plays on, and look at the parks he’s played in! Coors Field East!
Jeter’s Career OPS+ is 117.
Biggio’s Career OPS+ is 112
That’s not a lot of difference. It’s so close that calling one a first ballot HOFer and the other a bubble player is laughable.
No, its because if u play 30 years and get 3,000 hits, its not as special.
Jeter got 3,000 hits in his 18th season with a career .314 batting average at the time
Biggio got his 3,000th hit in his 20th season with a career .281 batting avg
Jeter is still going strong at age 38…
Biggio was limping to the finish line his last few years…it was obvious he was hanging on to get to 3000
No, its because if u play 30 years and get 3,000 hits, its not as special.
LMAO. More gross exaggeration. Biggio did not play 30 years. Try 20 years. He has just 609 more plate appearances than Jeter.
As for Jeter’s BA, again, their OPS+ differential is just 5 points. That is so damn close it is ridiculous that one should be considered a bubble player and the other a first ballot HOFer.
Jeter is still going strong at age 38… Biggio was limping to the finish line his last few years
You think Jeter has a chance to get 4,000 hits. I say only in your dreams. I say it’s likely this year Jeter really shows his age — and the Yankees are in deep doo-doo because of all their old AARP players!
To be fair Metro, I don’t know many people other than the Mad Dog Russo’s and Mike Francesa’a of the world that don’t think Biggio is a HOFer. IMO they’re both locks. Who’s saying he’s on the Bubble?
Fonzie — Here’s part of the bubble brigade …
Bill Christine, Rob Maaddi, Steve Wilstein, John Perrotto, Jeff Fletcher, Mike Dyer, Dave Cunningham, Peter Botte, Mike Imrem, Ken Rosenthal, Marcos Breton, Tony Massaroti, Art Davidson, Bill Griffith, Bill Ballou, Joe Christensen, Steve Simmons, Mike Fine, Marc Lancaster, Jeffrey Flanagan, Kevin Modesti, Bruce Jenkins
All of the above writers voted for either Bagwell, Clemens, or Bonds, but not Biggio. So PEDS was not a factor when they left him off from their ballots. And this comes only from a partial list. The vast majority of 2013 HOF voters did not disclose their ballots. No doubt many of those would fall into this category as well. Moreover, I didn’t list any non-Biggio voter who also didn’t vote for at least one of Bagwell, Clemens or Bonds. No doubt some of these thought Biggio was a bubble candidate too. Bottom line: there are many who feel Biggio is a bubble player.
Hi Metro,
If you read Matt’s analysis of the role of the modern baseball general – along with my comments and attached articles – you’ll understand why. The title “general manager” holds different responsibilities than it did a few decades ago. Sandy is a business person and what is holding back the Mets (as it is other clubs) is that he truly believes he understands the game professionally due to his study of statistics and his analytical way of looking at things which is a strength in the fields of law and economics but not that of competitive sports.
If one does not know enough of the game to have an opinion of what Ike Davis might have been doing wrong at the plate and could only talk about it in terms of being an observer, that in itself shows that he is not a baseball person on the executive level. Being able to evaluate ones mechanics – is a pre-requisite for being called a baseball pro. To have said back in 2010 that the reason the Mets did not hit home runs in Citi Field was because they needed to learn how to, is not indicative of one who knows what he is talking about as well. All the pros said it was not simply the distance but a combination of that distance and the height of the walls that made it so difficult to do. It wasn’t a matter of a batter hitting the ball further – he also needed to hit it much higher.
Did not take a pro to figure that out, either. One of my friends estimated at the time that in order to hit a ball out in the left field power alley at Shea, all the batter needed was to hit a pitch high enough that when it landed it went 382 feet – since even with great timing an outfielder cannot be expected to be able to stretch his arm that high up . With the dimensions at Citi Field and considering the arch needed in order to clear the height of the wall at that time, geometrically the ball would have needed to be in reality an approximate 450 foot shot. Even I figured that one out myself.
How does one learn how to hit 450 fly balls on a regular basis without steroids?
That’s why Sandy is not a professional baseball person. His answers weren’t even close.
Hi Joey –
Please list the specific URLs and quote any of Matt’s analysis that you want me to comment on because otherwise I have no way to know what you are talking about.
Has the role of the modern GM changed? Very likely. Because the times are different and the business side of baseball is more complex — ie, revenue sharing, luxury taxes, draft caps. Also, international markets for talent are now more open than they’ve ever been before, there are regional sports networks and complex deals with cable networks. Then there is the rise of sabermetrics which has compelled many GMs to get up to snuff on many new metrics. So, yes, it’s all very complex today, and those GMs who can’t manage the business side of things are going to get marginalized.
But I have to disagree strongly with this idea that Sandy is just a business person. I know some of you keep spouting it, but there is NO solid evidence for that. His background is BOTH baseball and business. And so that’s what he brings to the table and both inform the way he runs the Mets.
Being able to evaluate ones mechanics – is a pre-requisite for being called a baseball pro
So, are you saying MOST of the recent GMs (including those like Gillick and Ryan) and MOST of the current GMs are not baseball people? Because I’m betting virtually none of today’s GMs can adequately evaluate the mechanics of one of their players to assess what they are doing wrong. So if that is your definition of being a “baseball person” well then, lol, you are right. Sandy and MOST GMs today are not baseball people! But then I disagree strongly on how you define “baseball people.” That is your definition. And I would think very few would agree with you.
To have said back in 2010 that the reason the Mets did not hit home runs in Citi Field was because they needed to learn how to,
Huh? I have a hard time believing Sandy ever said this. If he did, it was an offhanded comment and he didn’t really believe it. But find me a quote and link on that. Because Sandy actually was the first and only front office person who actually realized it was those damn walls that were the biggest culprit in holding back HRs. He had seen it firsthand in SD. He changed the walls there. It was Omar who is responsible for making those dimensions huge, and if he were still GM, we’d likely still have huge Citi dimensions. Sandy understood what the problem was and fixed it to some extent (the dimensions, though, are still huge).
So I think you have your facts wrong on Sandy. He knew right away when he came what the problem was with those dimensions.
LOL, yeah I know. But I think Joey may actually have got “Sandy” and “Omar” mixed up when talking about those Citi walls. Because what he ascribed to Sandy is actually more in line with what Omar might have said.
Exactly, Fonzie. I don’t know where Joey got that from. Almost from day 1, Sandy said the walls at Citi were likely an issue. Yes, he did say he would wait for 1 year (to first see for himself) but he acknowledged right away the dimensions were too huge.
You mean like the 2 super scouts that had Scott Kazmir traded?
or do u still insist that Jim Duquette wanted to make that move…
Whether or not Duquette wanted to make the move, the fact is he never argued against it. He as much admitted that. He just went along with the flow. Jeff Wilpon claims he was the only one who objected to the move. I have no reason to doubt that.
I don’t know if Duquette’s silence was because he was interim GM or if he just is not assertive enough, but the point is he didn’t outwardly object to the move at the time.
actually Jim said that he signed a clause stating he could not badmouth or talk about the org
Willie Randolph has the same clause, hence why his book Rising Son was canned
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/sports/Willie-Randolph-Had-a-Gag-Clause.html
http://www.amazon.com/Rising-Son-LP-Willie-Randolph/dp/0061720100
pretty much every met exec signs it
so yeah, you will never get an admission from Duquette or Minaya or any Met Exec on anything negative mets related
so by jim saying he was just going with the flow ( even though for MONTHS he said he would not trade Kazmir for anyone…not even the hottest player on the trade market ( soriano ) or Manny )
you really think there was no meddling from the wilpons
o by the way, one of the super scouts…was Jeff Wilpon’s boyhood batting instructor
no coincidence
as you were…
Saying you openly disagreed with a move is NOT bad-mouthing an organization and would not be in violation of such a clause unless maybe it were an outright lie.
Such a clause would not cover something like that.
so yeah, you will never get an admission from Duquette or Minaya or any Met Exec on anything negative mets related
Because there is nothing to tell. And you know it. Phillips has been out of office for years, and the worst he has to say is that there was an atmosphere of fraternization with the players. But he never said he was forced to make player moves.
If there were negative things to tell, they would get out, regardless of any clause. Cashman has made it clear that some of the moves made were not of his choosing. Mets GMs could say similar things if it were true for them. That is not bashing an organization.
Also, I dispute your contention that Duquette had a clause which prevented him from badmouthing the organization. There is also no proof that Philips or Omar ever had one.
The reason you’ve never heard them criticize the Wilpons is they felt there was nothing to criticize.
LOL, damaja, I just clicked on that link. It doesn’t even say for sure that the clause was the reason the book was canned. The author is just speculating,
Moreover, those clauses are ONLY in effect for the time the person is still being paid by the club, Once those payments stop, the person can say what they want.
Try again.
“The author is just speculating”
awesome, so please tell me why was the book shelved…even after it was marketed…pressed and set to be released.
http://books.google.com/books?id=cb6UkQEACAAJ&dq=inauthor:%22Willie+Randolph%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JMVJUdGDDLe24AOb74CoAw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ
“…so please tell me why was the book shelved”
LOL, it’s up to you to prove things if you are making a claim. You just can’t connect widely spaced dots and expect people to believe it if there is no proof. And even the reporter on that story is not asserting definitively that the clause was the reason for the cancellation.
Even if there was a clause, it’s ended now. So Randolph can say what he wants. Maybe the book was canceled because:
1) Randolph still wanted a high profile job in baseball and didn’t want to burn bridges the way Francona likely has’
2) Fear of a lawsuit for libel
3) The book stunk so the publisher canned it
Any or all of those things are possible.
Metro,
This is not a court of law where you have to show tangible evidence (even though there IS considerable first hand testimony describing a chronically and pervasively dysfunctional organization), the court of public opinion ruled on this matter YEARS ago. At this point, the PERCEPTION is as damaging as whatever the reality might be.
But we can be pretty damned sure about that reality.
Like I said above, the ubiquitous and diverse nature of negative stories floating around the Met stratosphere these past couple of decades involving the Wilpons are SO numerous, the probability that they are ALL imagined, fabricated, illusions, ghosts, dreams, or lacking substance, is effectively nil.
Hi Matt,
Like connecting the dots. Individual things appear so much differently when seen in conjunction with each other forming a pattern. Sometimes the patterns could be quite open to debate and other times the paths can be so clear beyond a reasonable doubt.
All the actions we’ve seen taken – and those not, the steps taken by other floundering clubs to re-build themselves, the question of complete re-building, the carefully orchestrated double-talk, the financial information that is available, the quotes from Selig and his moves, the background of Sandy Alderson, his analytical personality which would automatically make him to vet further about the Met situation before he took over, his experience prior to getting into baseball, the experience of others in the Oakland organization, the work he did in San Diego and his two stints with the Commissioner’s office – and even his own words describing his own insight to the game when compared to those who played it…., well, there are a lot of dots to connect and indeed get a pattern and understanding of the reasons behind what we’ve seen in Flushing now going on Sandy’s third year.
Hi Matt,
Yes, this is not a court of law, and I am certainly not asking for the type of evidence that would stand up in one. But by the same token, you just can’t throw out empty allegations with little or nothing of substance to support them. “You” meaning you PLUS others, whether they be in the media or other fans.
What you call a “chronically and pervasively dysfunctional organization” is no more than what happens with many other teams — such as the Boston Red Sox — and doesn’t spill over into the baseball decisions. It’s more on the order of things like the Walter Reade flap, Rubingate, ongoing and repeated instances of injuries being mishandled or rehabilitations getting delayed, or various Mets personnel or players putting their foot in their mouths with something stupid they say. Some of that has nothing directly to do with the owners. Some of it does. Much of it had to do with Omar’s weak executive skills. But most important, most of it had zilch to do with actual baseball moves (and that is really MY point). Whether it was Omar or Sandy, the owners didn’t decide who to sign, trade for, trade away, promote, demote or release. If you and others want to keep saying they do, then be my guest, I’m just not going to believe that tale unless there is proof — and I’ll continue to say it’s BS until I see the evidence.
So, yes, I agree, the Mets may have been dysfunctional in the same way some other teams have been, but it was extraneous crap outside of baseball decisions. I understand that there is a perception issue with the Wilpons meddling, and some in the media keep saying it extended to all areas of the team including decision making on players. But in this case, perception isn’t 100% consistent with reality. And nothing but facts to the contrary is going to convince me otherwise. And while those sharing my views are in the minority, as I’ve shown you, at least one journalist who has connections, Mark Healey, shares my views. So, I am certainly not alone in what I believe.
Matt, forgot to add, and this is important and also explains why the Wilpons have such a big perception problem –
This is NY where the intense media scrutiny exacerbates and magnifies everything, As proof look at what happened to Syndergaard. The kid, while a Blue Jay, tweets an offhanded remark, jokingly, using a homophobic slur. No one says boo about it. He gets traded to NY and suddenly he has a NY reporter going through his twitter account and broadcasting to the world that he used a homophobic slur before he even became a Met. For a day or two it became an issue and required him to issue an apology. Things like that add to the perception of a dysfunctional organization. But a lot of it has to do with the NY media. They can easily create whatever perception they want. And it will stick.
Nope, Sandy on 10-29-2010 said the following
“My own feeling as a fan is that offense sells,” Alderson said. “But does that mean there will be changes to this ballpark? Certainly not in the foreseeable future as far as I’m concerned. I’ve only walked the park once, but I do come from a ballpark — San Diego — where the same challenges existed. We took a look at the dimensions there. We made some modest changes, but not significant ones. And the other thing I would point out is that the fans in San Diego fell in love with that ballpark and its dimensions, and the quality and type of play in that ballpark versus other places. … This is such a beautiful ballpark and architecturally so stunning that even that would be a consideration starting to move things around.”
Sandy’s philosophy has always been that offense sells.
Sandy, like Fred, has treated the competitive hungry NY fan like a 5 year old
As if we were lil kids who are still happy that 8 HR’s were hit in a game….
never mind if we lost 8-4
There is a fundamental disconnect between the front office and the mentality of a NY sports fan.
All we wanna do is WIN
thats it
thats all
You win, we come, you make money
You lose, we stop coming, you dont make money ( at least not on attendance )
period
amen
thats it
thats all
Huh? How does that quote contradict anything Fonzie or I said regarding Sandy and the dimensions of Citi Field? He always said he wasn’t going to do anything right away. That he wanted to assess things first. But he always acknowledged from the get go that changes were not out of the question and that the dimensions of Citi could be problematic to offense.
Not saying that it necessarily contradicted Sandy’s thoughts on big dimensions vs small dimensions.
I am saying that Sandy’s thinking is in a box and is flawed.
Its like saying the Yankees and Phils and BoSox rank in the top 4 of attendance b/c of their dimensions…
If the Yanks avg 75 wins for the next 5 years, they can shrink the dimensions and hit as many HR as they want….fans arent going to come…hell they gave up after losing 2 games to Texas in the ALCS…
you can not underestimate the buying power of the NY fair weather fan.
NY fairweather fans ONLY go to see teams when they are winning.
Winning team = good product
Losing team = bad product
So yes, I do agree that Sandy wanted to shrink the stadium…and he thought shrinking the stadium would increase HR ( it did ) and increasing HR would increase attendance ( it did not )
the philosophy is flawed, statistics and common sense prove it. And further more prove that Sandy Alderson is a failure. A failure at comprehending the basic barbaric nature of a competitive NY sports fan. He and the WIlpons treat this like a form of entertainment, as if this were literally a circus.
O look, shrink the dimensions and watch the great big lion jump through the hoop of fire 10 more times !
The kids will love that..
Us New Yorkers ( and really NorthEast ) sports fans just want to win. We dont care who is on the field when it happens. Yankee fans did not react with horror and disgust when the 99 Yankees were punching and brawling with the Orioles. Strawberry did not become a villian for jumping on the other teams reliever and punching him in the clubhouse…if anything he became MORE POPULAR…
the one who got ragged on was Derek Jeter for laughing it up with A-Rod when Seattle and NY had their brawl.
I felt like with the Yanks and Phils, they now have all the fire we had, that we celebrated players for having..
we celebrate players for being nice and docile and keeping their heads down…
Had we held the 86 mets to the new choir boy standard the Wilpons have set for met fans now, we never win the WS, never acquire former coke user and Cardinal clubhouse cancer Keith Hernandez.
/rantover
/backtowork
/asyouwere
Huh? Are you serious? All he said there is that offense sells. It does.
He did not say that offense is the ONLY thing that sells. He did not even say offense is the BIGGEST thing that sells. He just said offense sells. That’s the truth.
Why are you making strawman arguments?
Same places at Matt got his, along with others who also came to such conclusions.
And if one says he is not qualifiied to have ventured an opinion as to what was wrong with Ike Davis’s mechanics – even if his guess was wrong – because he wasn’t a ball player and could only look at it as an observer, then I don’t know how he is qualified to be able to evaluate talent as a professional, let alone be an architect of a team.
But regarding what was said about Bill Rigney:
According to Joey it was the teams consultant and also color analyst during Sandy’s first few years as GM. It’s like saying Keith Hernandez made the decision to trade away Beltran for Wheeler and Dickey for TdA and Synderblock (Syndergaard). Lol…
Consultant and color analyst is a real put down of Rigney. It is being totally disrespctful to his career and high regard within the sport. It is one thing to direct comments such comments toward me but another thing to ridicule a man’s achievements and high regard in order to dispute a point I made. He spent over 50 years in the game on all levels and was highly regarded for his knowledge and insight. Sandy relied on that “color analyst” quite a lot:
“When we were concerned about doing something stupid, we’d run it by Rig,” Alderson said from his Bay Area home Tuesday. “He was our safety net, ”
http://articles.latimes.com/2001/feb/21/sports/sp-28087
Or
“When you talk about people who have contributed to our success, you have to single out Bill Rigney. His contributions have been enormous. He has been involved in every one of our player acquisitions since I came here in 1982. I’ve watched 600 or 700 games with Bill, and it’s been an education.”
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/It-Musta-Been-Rigged-Bill-Rigney-dead-at-83-2949823.php#ixzz2NulNrva9
Here is a brief biographical piece about that “color analyst”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Rigney
And most of all, these are some more words about him from Sandy Alderson which also should be applied to those who put him down:
“He had so much knowledge, but he never talked down to people,”
Read up more about him in this article too and then we can discuss how he much he deserves to be remembered as a former player who was a color analyst and nothing more. And since he came to Oakland approximately at the same time Sandy did, let’s read up on Sandy’s knowledge of the game and how that was the catalyst to the Oakland championship teams – or how Sandy’s knowledge compares to the one he replaced – Billy Martin.
http://espn.go.com/classic/s/rigney_bill_remembrance.html
And remember Fonzie, these are questions I’m asking in relationship to Bill Rigney and the contention of him as a color analyst as his major achievement after playing. Already know your opinions about my take on things. So lets now read your take on Bill Rigney.
Seems to me like one difference between Sandy and Duquette (and Omar and Phillips for that matter) is that Sandy defers to the the actual experts whereas Duquette deferred to people who only THOUGHT they were experts, people who were playing “lets build a major league franchise” with Daddy’s scale models of Citi Field, with his bobbleheads and everything … lol.
Hi Joey — I don’t want to get into Rigney because he is irrelevant to my point which is that it is ridiculous to think that someone who was GM as long as Sandy was has no baseball background and isn’t a “baseball person.” That is simply a subjective judgment with no basis in fact.
I also disagree with you that a GM has to know how to analyze a hitter’s weaknesses. I would bet that Sabean, Cashman, Gillick and most others have no idea how to do that with any confidence, Heck, even a hitting coach can be in the dark how to fix some hitters. So this idea that if you don’t know how to analyze a hitter’s problems you are not suitable to be laughable would eliminate most of the current GMs in baseball. Including most of the successful ones.
Hi Metro,
What I mean by a “baseball person” is not one who works in the business but is one who is into the evaluation and decision making – not one who might approve the recommendations from his assistant general managers. That is why I always referred to Sandy as a “baseball executive”.
Now, we know that every general manager is dependent upon the people below him – that’s not the argument. One of those articles I attached indicated some of the new corporate type general managers had a combination of business skills and a baseball background so were able to get more involved into formulating baseball matters (personnel and development) while others with little experience left it to those under him.
This obviously does not mean that Sandy does not know anything about the game. That would be absurd. That is why I always add the words “professional knowledge” since in the professional world of the game, one who is running the show and calling the shots more than allowing his people below him to make recommendations in which he will follow (after all, he has to have faith in their judgement for he hired them) HAS to know things about mechanics. At the highest level in the heirarchy, one without that knowledge of the game does not have the in-depth knowledge of what it takes to put together a major league team.
So, it’s either Sandy taking charge of matters that he does not have the professional background in the tremendously complex world of baseball as a competitive sport to have or he is leaving up to those under him. My own opinion is that he is indeed setting a TONE in which he wants the team to adhere to and that is leading to the problems many of us have talked about on the playing field.
Again, I think the problem is that the term “general manager” is still being thought of in the old manner in which it existed.
That is why I refer
Hi Metro,
Forgot to add to my reply that I did not say Sandy had to have the answer to the problem of Ike, but that he couldn’t even venture a guess or opinion. If he began speaking in terms like we hear from players, managers and coaches, not just with that question- but with other ones as well – then it would be a different situation. He talks in generalities which is fine – but not in any detail like the professionals. Or, like the deep detail he goes into when discussing business and finance.
Hi Joey —
Using your definition of “baseball person” well then I bet there are very few GMs today who would fit your definition.
Go ahead, name a few and tell me why they are different from Alderson. With facts. Not theories, but facts.
So while I understand what you’re trying to say, I just disagree with you (and others like Matt) in how you are pigeon-holing Alderson — unless of course you are simply saying MOST of today’s GMs are like that. In which case then OK, then Alderson isn’t a baseball person!
But I don’t believe that’s what you are saying.
Forgot to add to my reply that I did not say Sandy had to have the answer to the problem of Ike, but that he couldn’t even venture a guess or opinion.
See this is where I disagree. I think he could and would venture a guess, but he would defer to those with more hitting and coaching experience to come to conclusions. Just as many other GMs today would.
Thank you Fonzie,
Your response, reasoning and provided material only makes more of a case for the other side.
And I am glad you read my comments in FAFIF. You might be interested to know that the one who runs the blog was the one who personally invited me to speak at that Mets 50th Anniversary celebration at Hofstra last year and then the coordinators asked me to moderate a workshop as well. The author also acknowledges my help in two of the Mets books he has written – and wrote about me in the forward to a book about the 1962 Mets written by Janet Paskin. He has also written about the Mets for ESPN.COM and the New York Times as well as having written a segment for Mets Weekly.
I’m sure if he felt the same way about my baseball opinions as you do – saying that I know nothing about baseball (I saw that remark before it was deleted) – one with his professional credentials would not have bothered to ask me to speak at Hofstra, write about me or list my name with others he acknowledged to help contribute to the two books he’s written himself. I felt honored that he had that much respect for my understanding of the history of the game and of the Mets in particular. If you go into the FAFIF archive, you will also find some ariticles in which I was asked to contribute and quoted about. These were not my articles, these were written by the bloggers who were asking for my input.
Referring to Sandy’s first interview on SNY where he took questions phoned in by fans shortly after becoming the GM. He was asked about shortening the fences to help the Met hitters and Sandy’s answer was that it wasn’t Citi Field but the Mets having to learn how to hit home runs there. I remember that quite clearly because I the next day I had a discussion with some friends about that and that was when one of them projected the type of ball that would have to be hit to left field not just in distance but with the arch macking it in essence a 450 shot to clear the fence that wall in left.
Sorry Joey, but I think someone got that wrong. Maybe someone transcribed the answer incorrectly. That doesn’t jive with all that Sandy said about Citi and the dimensions since he became GM. I just don’t believe it.
Actually, on October, 29, 2010 Sandy was quoted (as per Just) as saying this regarding changing Citi Field’s dimensions (when referring to the issue that offense sells):
“But does that mean there will be changes to this ballpark? Certainly not in the foreseeable future as far as I’m concerned.. ”
He also said after alluding to minor changes made in San Diego’s park:
“This is such a beautiful ballpark and architecturally so stunning that even that would be a consideration starting to move things around.”
That sounds completely opposite from what he was attributed as stating:
“I remember Sandy’s first interview on MLB Network and when he was asked about moving in the fences he said he wants to see how the season (2011) plays out before he makes any changes.
Also, does this sound like Sandy acknowledging the dimensions were too huge (again, from those quotes from Just):
“I’ve only walked the park once, but I do come from a ballpark — San Diego — where the same challenges existed. We took a look at the dimensions there. We made some modest changes, but not significant ones. And the other thing I would point out is that the fans in San Diego fell in love with that ballpark and its dimensions, and the quality and type of play in that ballpark versus other places.”
Where in tha statement does he say:
“Sandy said the walls at Citi were likely an issue. Yes, he did say he would wait for 1 year (to first see for himself) but he acknowledged right away the dimensions were too huge.
These quotes from Sandy do not show any interesting in changing the dimensions of Citi Field and instead shows that Sandy was intent on keeping it that way for the “forseable future”. It also very much falls into the context of my recollection of him saying there was nothing wrong with Citi Field’s dimensions and the Mets would just have to learn how to hit home runs there. As mentioned before, it was that comment that got me into a discussion with a friend of just how far a ball had to be hit to left center in order to go out.
Now, I will not at all dispute that Sandy changed his mind later on but at the beginning he was adament about his position. So the discrepancy is the time line of statements. He did say at first there were to be no changes as contested and because he said something different sometime later on does not alter that fact.
Vetting.
Joey, the only thing that Sandy said in that interview is that he wouldn’t be doing anything right away. But I remember clearly that he expressed concerns about the dimensions right off the bat. I can’t find the interview now, but I will look for it later.
The point being is that he was always cognizant that the dimensions could be a problem, and LESS than a year after he was hired, the decision was made to start to make significant changes to Citi to make the park more neutral.
So where do you think the impetus came from? Seriously? Can you answer that? Someone in high authority had to push through this agenda because it was a major task — and expensive — to redo the walls, If Sandy himself didn’t believe in this, it wouldn’t have gotten done.
I have no doubt if Omar were still GM nothing would have been done with the walls. Before he left, he was asked many times about the dimensions. You know what he always said — something like “I believe pitching and defense is important.” That is comical since the way you build good pitching is not by artificially making the pitchers stats better with huge dimensions. A good pitcher can pitch in almost any type park.
Hi Metro,
I really don’t want to do this because we are cyber friends but I do need to point out that you are taking words and twisting their meaning to fit what one wants to hear.. One saying he has no plans in the “forseable future” does not mean he is saying he will not be doing something right away. One talking about how fans loved the deep dimensions of San Diego was Sandy’s way of explaining why there would not be even “minor” changes in the forseable future.
That is why I used Sandy’s own words and not those of one being spoken to in terms of the third person. I am positive you heard Sandy say the things you wrote about – I heard them too. So there is no disagreement over that. It is timeframe. As I said, at the very beginning, that was his public position for whatever reason.
Hi Just,
As far as his quote being taken out of context, can you send us the link to help settle that part of the question?
Joey — That interview was from Sandy’s introductory news conference. I distinctly remember though that almost immediately after he came aboard he said he would be taking a close look at the dimensions over the first season and with an eye toward making adjustments so they would be more friendly to the team’s hitters. I cannot find that article now, but if I come across it in the future I will point it out to you. However I know he was talking about this prior to the Fall of 2011 when the decision to change the fences was formally made.
Referring to Sandy’s first interview on SNY where he took questions phoned in by fans shortly after becoming the GM. He was asked about shortening the fences to help the Met hitters and Sandy’s answer was that it wasn’t Citi Field but the Mets having to learn how to hit home runs there. I remember that quite clearly
There should be a transcript of this right? Sorry but I just don’t believe he would have said that. You are the first in this thread to bring up the fences issue, claiming Sandy said this. But since you can’t support it, then I say just we just make a mental note and strike all claims regarding Sandy and fences from this discussion, OK?
We do know that the decisions to change the fences in a major way was made less than 1 year after Sandy became GM. That is a fact. But lets then forget anything that was said about it up to that time. At least today for the purposes of this discussion. Since you can’t support your initial claim and I can’t support my reply to it. OK?
Hi Metro,
Will have to stand by what I know Sandy said – and the only reason I remember it so well is because of the events that happened right after that which got my friend and I on a discussion of the distances one would have to “learn” to hit. If nothing happened after that, then I would question my memory – but his comment led to a further discussion on the point which would not have been looked into had he not said it. We did it specifically for what was said that night.
Now this comes from a January, 2011 article in Bleacher Report:
“Mets GM Sandy Alderson has said there are no plans to change Citi Field, so hitters will just have to man up. It’s a stadium built for speed and defense. Power isn’t the only factor in winning games and if the Mets manage to win a lot of them, no one is going to care how many home runs they hit.”
Though Sandy said “man up”, I will not pretend that is the same thing about hitters having to learn how to hit home runs at Citi. But it does say something about an attitude about hitters having to adapt and accept Citi Field for what it was. So that’s a start in my attempt to find more quotes from Sandy to find evidence of what I remember.
BTW – I lost the link I had for that article but will try and find it another time.
But what I was able to cut and paste (before losing the link) certainly shows no evidence of needing a year to see if any changes were needed. Just quoted Sandy from two months prior to that where he also was firm about no changes being made in the forseable. The earliest article I came across reporting Sandy was considering change was in early August, 2011 when Met officials were inferring Sandy was looking into to as changes – at which Sandy denied. In other articles around that time Sandy was not saying anything one way or the other as well.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110807&content_id=22869932&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb
So, there has been multiple backup confirming Sandy said nothing about considering moving the fences in and that they would remain as is early in his term as Met GM. Let me know if you come up with anything from those first few months that are different.
Joey — That is NOT a direct quote from Sandy. He never said “man up.” That is merely the writer reporting on what Sandy said at his introductory news conference many months before.
So, no, Sandy did not say those things in January of 2011. Here is the link:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/582161-jeff-franceour-to-new-york-mets-citi-field-is-a-damn-joke
As someone with a journalism background you should know better when working with quotes and things like that!
And no, in that Noble article Sandy does not deny there will be changes at Citi., He just said that it’s :”premature” to talk about it. Which makes sense given that he had said he wanted to observe the 2011 season first.
So I have to tell you, I distinctly remember Sandy saying early into his regime and well before the Fall of 2011 that he was going to observe the dimensions at Citi during the year with the intent of adjusting the fences as needed. So I have to stand by that.
Hi Metro,
Though I attached two articles, those weren’t the ones that went into further detail that I had posted months ago. I’ve been looking for it ever since since it expands on the thoughts just touched upon there. It was a seven page article so quite lengthy.
That’s where I got the analogy of older general managers running the business like a mom and pop store which was the way it was until baseball became a multi-billion dollar industry and thus the $1.50 General Admission ticket from 40 years ago (which according to the inflation counter would be the equivalent of $7.84) has gone away.
The author also did list the number of general managers who had come from the corporate world or graduated from Law School and with an advanced degree in Business Administration. It was surprising to learn how many of them were indeed from outside the game as opposed to it inside. Remember a few weeks back I posted an article in which Einhardt stated he hired Sandy more because of his military backround and the leadership qualities that he got from that experience which was what he wanted from one who was going to take charge of things from him?
The focus was on the shifting attitude from baseball as a sport to baseball as another form of business and that it should be run on that type of model and that owners were now looking at general manages in terms of running their business more than running their team.
Being that this new type of general manager has to be analytical in nature is why so many also adopted sabermetrics, etc into the baseball operations and hired staff accordingly.
Will still look for it – I’ve been reviewing year old MMO posts too to see if I can come up with the link as well. I just hope the time element to retrieve that article from the news website that I found it has not expired.
But it was a fascniating read and if I recall properly, one that I commented about saying it was also a sad statement of how things have changed. Wish me luck
I am still looking for that seven pager
WOW.
I just witnessed an incredible tennis match between Metro and Matt. How cool was that?
And Metro – you take on all comers. Well done.
This thread should be listed as one of the all time greats for Mets Merized.
Though – Metro – I still don’t agree with you.
Sandy was brought in as a hatchet man – not a baseball man. There can be an argument made that this was the position he was put in – but indeed, he came to the club with a very dull knife and no loyalty to the fan base.
And Jeff Wilpon is an idoit who’s only experience to baseball is being Bernie Madoff son’s best friend which introduced Fred to Bernie and …well…the rest is history.
Anything Jeff touches turns bad – and, after the Kazmir fiasco -to keep him away from the team for a while, Pop had Jeff in charge of the building of Citi filed. Gave him a toy hard hat and everything. And he screwed that up. They had to redesign the outfield – not to mention the blind spots.
Anyway Metro – keep up the good work. I may disagree but you certainly make your point.
Agee, lol, you are funny.
At any rate, I believe Sandy was brought in to turn the Mets team around and build a winner. This hatchet man stuff is just theoretical and unfounded.
One thing about the Kazmir fiasco. I think that was mostly Fred’s fault. The Kazmir trade grew out of the superscouts and they were hired by Fred. In addition, Jeff Wilpon has said that he was the only one who initially voiced opposition to the trade. I have no reason to disbelieve him. So you are pointing fingers at the wrong Wilpon here.
And as for Citi’s dimensions. That was totally Omar. Jeff had nothing to do with that. He said in an interview in the NYT’s it was the baseball people who set those dimensions. So once again,you are blaming the wrong person.
I understand why some don’t like Jeff Wilpon. But it’s hilarious how he gets blamed for just about everything,
Well Metro -
We’ll just have to agree to disagree about things like Sandy being a disingenuous, horrible hatchet man or just an incompetent baseball man…and whether Jeff’s IQ is in the double or single digits.
My read on Kasmir is far more sinister albeit it is threaded with facts and pure speculation on my part.
Jeff wanted so much to be needed in the Mets family and get out of his Pop’s shadow. And he did it through a relationship with team captain and junk baller – John Franco.
When Franco was injured, he would hang around Shea and soon became Jeff’s BFF. Franco needed Jeff because, after all, he was the owner’s son and had lost his command so badly that he was only throwing off speed crap off the plate. When he was forced to throw a strike the ball would break a bus’ windshield in the parking lot. Jeff needed John because he wanted so badly to be around the ballplayers.
Fred created what I will refer to as The Gang Of Three to report back to him on what was going on in the clubhouse. The gang of three hardly represented the whole club as it was made up of three former all-stars – all white lefty pitchers – whose careers were in their twilight. Glavine, Leiter and Franco.
They had the owner’s ear and the son of the owner in their back pocket.
Along comes Kazmir – a promising young pitcher who also happened to be lefty.
Slowly, if you remember, stories were being leaked about Kazmir about him having a bad attitude, not respecting veterans and not playing the kind of music that was appropriate for an old-timers’ game. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to guess who was leaking the stories.
All of a sudden, this young phenom became available and was involved in one of the worst trades ever made by the Mets.
Could the gang of three have been threatened by Kazir? You betcha!
This from a Mets Merized article posted a while ago:
“Or, as Jim Duquette puts it in this 2006 New York Times article, “We had too many cooks in the kitchen, In that situation, if someone disagrees, he might not speak up. The loudest voices are the ones that get heard. It does become sort of like a mob mentality.”’
“Following the trade, rumors leaked that Jeff Wilpon, and not GM Jim Duquette, was in charge of roster decisions. Reports surfaced that Al Lieter hadn’t liked Kazmir, dating back to a spring training incident involving clubhouse music, and that Lieter and Tom Glavine were known to play golf with Jeff Wilpon.”
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/10/mmo-fan-shot-revisiting-the-scott-kazmir-trade.html
Interesting take – and one that I agree with.
Peterson had his hand in it “I can fix Zambrano in fifteen minutes” (you can’t fix what’s already broken). And Jeff most certainly had his finger prints all over the trade.
This from Wikipedia:
“Jim Duquette’s tenure as the Mets’ GM is largely remembered for the trade of top pitching prospect Scott Kazmir to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for the injury-prone and unproductive Victor Zambrano. However, Duquette is often unfairly blamed for the trade; Mets owner Jeff Wilpon was largely responsible for the trade.”
or this:
“Phillips is often erroneously blamed for trading Kazmir to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for Victor Zambrano on the July 31, 2004 trade deadline. Kazmir went on to become an All Star, while Zambrano never made an impact with the Mets and was out of major league baseball a few years later. It was, however, Jeff Wilpon who made the deal.”
One blogger posted this about two weeks ago – refering to the trade as “Black Friday”:
“…The shorthand of it was because of the backlash of Black Friday — how John Franco and Al Leiter were in the ear of Jeff Wilpon, who had more of a hands-on approach to day-to-day operations with the team, and claimed that Kazmir’s music tastes weren’t appropriate and he was out of line (by changing the channel in the weight room) …”
The trade turned out to be a crossroads for the team.
The GM and manger were fired and Jeff was banished from all personnel matters.
So Jeff can really say whatever he wants to – and you can believe him – but I don’t. He was, in fact, very much involved and green lighted the trade.
Agee,
What you just put down there is about 80% conjecture and 20% fact. I’m going to fill in the holes in your story with what I think is the best recounting of the Kazmir saga that I have read anywhere. It’s by Mark Healey. I can’t link to it anymore because the original link is dead. But I found it copied and pasted into various forums. I’m going to repeat it here in its entirety (in a separate post following this one) because I think it’s important. I will highlight in bold some salient points. You may know of Healey as his name has been percolating in Mets fans circles for years. He’s controversial for some of his predictions that have never materialized, but the story I am posting is not a prediction; it is a piece of reporting. He has many sources and I don’t doubt for a second that what he wrote in this story in true,
The story was written in 2008 and it compares the Kazmir situation in 2004 with what was happening with Bernazard at that time in terms of internal politics and back stabbing. This was written before Rubingate happened.
Before I post his story, let me say that is destroys your misconception that Leiter, Franco and Jeff Wilpon were at the bottom of the Kazmir trade. It correctly puts the onus on the 2 superscouts that were hired by Fred Wilpon. Of course, since Fred hired them, and since he is the owner, he ultimately should get most of the blame. But the point is Jeff, Leiter and Franco had nothing to do with it. It also is not Rick Peterson’s fault.
Hi Agee –
Since you say there are a “handful of more” articles, can ou find me just one more link that explicitly says Jeff was “demoted” due to the Kazmir incident?
In the article you linked to, the author makes a conclusion that Kazmir was the reason for Jeff’s supposed demotion. But a few things to note:
(1) Jeff had always been working closely with the Brooklyn Cyclones from day 1 of their existent in 2000 when Jeff became the Cyclone’s COO. So, Jeff likely had never stopped working with that team in some capacity, especially around 2004.
(2) Maybe there was an alleged “demotion” because Fred wanted to do what he had promised Omar – give him complete autonomy. So he wanted to do it without even having the appearance of someone hanging over his shoulder. So he MAY have told Jeff to cool it for awhile for that reason. Remember, Omar had originally refused Fred’s offer to come back to the Mets because Fred wanted him to share duties with Duquette. So to finally get him to relent, he offered him the job without him having to share anything.
Remember, Duquette was always an interim GM in Fred’s mind. That’s why there was meddling during Duquette’s regime, and in particular during the Kazmir trade.. But in that instance, it was Fred and his two superscouts who meddled. Not Jeff, Leiter, Franco or Peterson.
Healey has facts. Facts like Rick Peterson, saying to another reporter (David Lennon-Newsday) that it was Goldis who was at the heart of it.
I’m going to stick with Healey’s version of things. He’s the only who’s ever written a substantive account of the matter. With facts. I have no reason to disbelieve him.
Peas in A Pod
by Mark Healey
June 18, 2008
Back in 2004, or the last time the Mets’ front office was in this much turmoil, one guy (with some help from another guy) was the divisive force that created so much havoc that super-prospect Scott Kazmir was traded for a injury-prone, arbitration-eligible (and serious non-tender candidate) right-hander, Victor Zambrano. That guy’s name was Al Goldis, and his partner in crime was Bill Livesey. Yeah, those guys. “The Super Scouts”. These two geniuses helped destroy a blossoming farm system, an exceptional scouting department, and got an undeserving GM fired. They also helped turn a fan base against Jeff Wilpon.
Sound familiar?
Later that year, after the white-hot venom of the Mets’ fan base had erupted for several months, the Mets decided that Omar Minaya would fix all of the Mets’ problems, repair the front office, and circle the wagons. At first, he did. Then he made the mistake of hiring Tony Bernazard as his assistant.
Unlike Goldis, whose agenda to usurp any influence that newly-minted GM Jim Duquette (after spending half a year as the interim GM after Steve Phillips was fired) began the day he was hired, it took Bernazard a year before he got himself promoted to VP of Player Development, despite having not a shred of scouting, coaching or front office experience. That’s quite a trick. But hey, his resume clearly indicated his fine work on the World Baseball Classic.
He never wanted to undermine his good friend Omar Minaya, but his actions and behavior have had the same result. Even better, like Goldis, he has – for the most part — put enough of his cronies in place so that any criticism – or corroboration – is virtually non-existent.
Let’s rewind back to July 30, 2004.
The day before the Kazmir trade was made. Several days earlier, noted columnist Bob Klapisch was on MSG SportsDesk discussing a trade rumor that had the Mets considering trading Scott Kazmir in exchange for The D-Ray’s Victor Zambrano. The emerging Internet community reacted with outrage, stating the Mets would never make that deal, etc. They also added that Klapisch “made it up”.
At the time, I was working at the Associated Press, knew of Klapsich’s reputation (which was excellent) and started checking with all of my contacts with the Mets’ Minor Leagues to see why they were considering dealing their top pitching prospect, who was rated by Baseball America as the a Top 5 blue chipper in all of baseball.
The answer was Al Goldis. I got this info at 11:30 pm EDT on July 29th, spent the next few hours writing the story and publishing it on the then-Mets Inside Pitch website (now insidepitchmagazine.com). Here is the relevant body of that article:
Given this is Jim Duquette’s first full year as general manager, it seems ill-advised that right before the all-important trading deadline, his role is being being circumvented by others in the front office.
Yet, it appears that’s exactly what is happening…(as) sources indicate that Mets’ owner Fred Wilpon is starting to tune out Duquette at the worst possible time of the year.
“Superscout” Al Goldis is the man that Wilpon is apparently listening to, …(and) has become increasingly active in the team’s day-to-day activities, including constant criticism of the team’s scouting and minor league development people, as well as pushing for the trade of some of the team’s top prospects for a all-out run at the NL East. (Matt) Peterson and left-hander Scott Kazmir are the team’s top pitching prospects, yet each are being bandied about in trade talks, only months after being considered untouchable. Duquette, widely known throughout baseball circles as a patient man _ especially when it comes to the club’s farmhands _ is rumored to be against trading either player.
Yet, somehow, Peterson may very well be on his way to Pittsburgh, while Kazmir is supposedly the (main component) that would net the Mets’ righty Victor Zambrano from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays.
For a team that spent much of the offseason selling its fan base on the future and it’s so-called “Plan”, this chain of events is alarming to those who believe the Amazin’s only hope of consistent playoff contention is the minor league system. Duquette, the lone voice opposing ex-GM Steve Phillips’ the ill-fated deals for Roberto Alomar and Mo Vaughn, has suddenly appeared to have changed course.
“No one is untouchable” said Duquette, who appeared as a guest on ESPN 1050AM on Thursday.
The “win now” mantra that is emanating from Shea Stadium the past few weeks makes the non-signing of Vladimir Guerrero, on his way to a possible MVP season for the Angels, now seem ludicrous. If Fred Wilpon thought highly enough to hire Duquette in the first place, why allow Goldis, who is supposed to a special assistant to the general manager, to have such sway in the team’s makeup? Along with Director of Scouting Gary LaRocque and Minor League Coordinator Guy Conti, Duquette have presided over a complete overhaul of the team’s minor league system, now considered one of the best in baseball.
The lack of trust being shown Duquette is (alarming), whose opinions are being shunted aside in favor of a “subordinate”, who just happens to have the owner’s ear.
The next day, those trades were made, and as the fans’ reaction started to explode, people started looking for folks to blame. Not a single writer, save Newsday’s Dave Lennon (who got Peterson to say, “Go ask Al Goldis”, in answer to a direct question about his role), ever mentioned Goldis’ name in any of their stories.
Why?
“(Goldis) is never around.” said one writer a few days after the deal. He was from a major NY tabloid, who is now out of the business, but I couldn’t reach him to get permission to use his name in this story. Frankly, it’s not important. What is important as his next sentence. “It’s easier to blame (Mets pitching coach Rick) Peterson. He likes Zambrano, was impatient with Kazmir because he didn’t buy into Rick’s program, and he’s weird.”
What? I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. I told him that his paper’s actions were unethical and that I would print what he said. He didn’t seem to care, I printed it, and even have repeated it on dozens of radio shows since. No one seems to be too disturbed by it.
The truth is, Peterson’s input played a role, and as he was the “CEO of Pitching”, but his “I’ll fix him in 10 minutes” comment, perpetuated as the REASON, is regurgitated nonsense. Much like the oft-repeated “Play it again, Sam” line from “Casablanca”, it doesn’t exist and is a myth. Also, John Franco and Al Leiter, while liked by ownership, were not asked for their input at the time of the deal. At that time, there was a growing resentment between certain members of the media, the two aforementioned veterans, and the manager.
Aagin, sound familiar?
Contrary to a recent TV report, and confirmed by more than one former member of the 2002 front office, Mets COO Jeff Wilpon, though respectful of Goldis, who was once the young Wilpon’s batting coach, did not “engineer” the Kazmir trade. As I reported then, and am reporting now, Jeff Wilpon was very reluctant to deal the young left-hander, who had become a fan favorite before ever throwing a pitch for the big league Mets, because of his tenure with the younger Wilpon’s claim to fame; the Brooklyn Cyclones. The opinion was shared by Duquette, long an admirer of the building of an organization from within.
The only problem was that his “assistants” had been spending the season plotting their purge of the previous – and current – regime’s prospects. Adding to that dynamic was the fact that Fred Wilpon had never really trusted Duquette’s evaluation skills, and had tried to hire Minaya away from the Expos in early 2004 before grudgingly giving the job to him. Instead, he hired the superscouts.
”We knew when Jim took over that that we had to hire two superscouts right away,” Fred Wilpon told the New York Times in 2005. “’Now Jim has two guys who are very, very important to him.”
Ah, the irony.
But later that summer, while the shining light of Art Howe had finally begun to dim, the Mets were again playing under expectations. Faced with slim-to-none hopes of making the postseason, the “Kitchen Cabinet” pulled the trigger. It was the room, dominated by Goldis and Livesey (whose role was excellently portrayed by Lawrence Rocca in a story published in the Newark Star-Ledger in August of 2004), that Fred Wilpon listened to and trusted the wrong people, and a franchise was ruptured.
The “all-powerful” Jeff Wilpon, who had urged his father to give Duquette a shot at the full-time job, then had to tell his friend that he was out and Omar, Fred’s personal choice, was in. The backlash from the deal was so unexpected, so bitter and so intense that “someone needed to pay the price.” Only recently has Duquette ever spoken about who pulled the trigger and even then, by only saying “There were too many cooks in the kitchen.”
Over the next two years, Wilpon’s money, Minaya’s personality and a very professional Willie Randolph were able to turn things around quickly, but as the organization started to heal itself, another man who would be King started to exert the influence bestowed on him by the GM. The difference is, this assistant GM had his sights set on the manager, pitching coach and others in the organization. He operated in the shadows like Goldis – and started driving good people out of the organization.
I wrote about this in the summer of 2005, as did Madden and Newsday’s Ken Davidoff.
Peterson kept his job (Bernazard realized that the Wilpons hired Peterson, not Duquette, a little too late), but he was able to drive Minor League Coordinator Tony Tijerina out the door. Most fans don’t know “T.J.”, but the former minor league catcher served as a player, coach, manager and assistant to Guy Conti (who he replaced as Coordinator) for the Mets since 1991, when he was drafted in the 13th round of the amateur draft. Deemed “too negative” by Bernazard to be a cog in his machine, he was replaced by Luis Aguayo.
Yeah, the new third base coach.
The new first base coach is former Minor League Manager of the Year Ken Oberkfell. The superb skipper, who helped develop David Wright, Jose Reyes and Kazmir, was really supposed to be the Mets manager in 2005. But once his biggest supporter (Duquette) was replaced as GM, he wasn’t even given an interview. Retreads Terry Collins and Jim Riggleman were, though.
The only good thing to come out of this whole debacle is that Oberkfell and new pitching coach Dan Warthen are getting their chance to work for the Mets. Finally. Good things do happen to good people.
Now to Randolph. Undermined by Bernazard, the lack of any real confidants on his coaching staff (interim manager Jerry Manuel was an Omar hire), and all of the mistakes made by the front office doesn’t change the fact that he wasn’t a very good manager. He deserved to be fired last year, got a chance to redeem himself, but didn’t deserve to get fired the way he did. Blame Omar Minaya for the clumsy way he handled this entire situation. Blame Omar Minaya for his assistant’s constant open-door policy with the Latino players, which hurt the skipper’s credibility. But stop blaming Fred and Jeff Wilpon for stuff they didn’t do.
Fred and Jeff Wilpon did not order Omar Minaya to fire Willie Randolph in the middle of the night. That was Minaya’s doing, and was on Minaya’s timetable. Sure, much like former Met Bobby Valentine’s ill-advised “Baseball at-bat on Marijuana” pantomime at the Tony Tarasco press conference in 2002, Randolph’s comments on race and SNY were an impetus for then Phillips and now Minaya to get the final approval from Fred Wilpon to fire the manager. Fred Wilpon is building his rotunda to honor Jackie Robinson, and is the guy who really hired Willie Randolph in the first place. He was hurt, and shocked that his manager could say the things he did. The moment they were made, the last real support Randolph had died. Jeff Wilpon? He was ready to fire Randolph after last year’s collapse, sure. So were a lot of people. Had he really “run” the organization, he would have. He deferred to Minaya. So much for that nonsense.
My favorite line lately is “Jeff Wilpon leaked info to the media”, as being blamed by many for the terrible timing of the firing. One writer even went on to say that Jeff “picked his favorite media guys” and told them that the firings were imminent. Really? Who would those guys be? The answer is zero. The media has been relentlessly smearing Jeff for years. Some have called him “Paris Wilpon” and others spew derivatives of “rich, spoiled, silver spoon brat” around the tabloids and blogs for good measure.
He’s no George Clooney. But he’s honest and while he often chooses not to comment, he never gets the benefit of the doubt. He had a few weeks there in the winter, as he was lauded for his role in the Johan Santana negotiations, but otherwise, is never fairly treated.
“Why should he have any say in the team, he’s just the owner’s son.” barks Chris Russo on WFAN. Sure Chris, I’m sure if you, or Peter Gammons or Vinnie From Flushing’s dad owned the Mets, you’d get a job in some other industry. Jealousy, thy name is everyone not named Jeff Wilpon.
Admittedly, both Fred and Jeff can be their own worst enemy, as they lack the communication ooze of PR hacks. But they are straightforward, honest, family men that refuse to lower themselves to debating with people that use personal attacks, embittered ex-employees and innuendo to publish the “facts”. Their biggest problem is that they put their trust, consistently, in the wrong people. From Al Harazin to Steve Phillips, the list is long.
Fred Wilpon loves baseball. He loves it so much that during this spring training he was talking to anyone who would listen about young pitcher Jon Niese. Jeff Wilpon loves baseball so much he goes on scouting trips to watch all levels of the farm system. They have been wrong often, and are stubborn, and defensive. But they love this club, want to win a World Series, and dammit, in a industry that is littered with franchises that could care less about being competitive, they desire excellence.
They’re not perfect, and they sure as hell have no particular affection for me (which is an understatement), as I have been extremely critical of ownership through the years. But they are NOT at fault for this latest debacle. This is fully and completely the responsibility of Omar Minaya.
Because he’s extremely likable, friendly and a honest GM (who understands his fan base more than most GMs), so much like painting Rick Peterson as a vindictive mad scientist, the media’ decision to portray Minaya as the reluctant triggerman is equally easy.
The evil Queen did not send the huntsman into the woods to kill Snow White. Great drama, great soap opera, but ultimately, bull.
The truth? Minaya’s firing of Randolph had a heckuva lot to do with his own job security. If he’s going to go down, he’s going to go down with his own guy, Manuel. You see, back in 2005, Rudy Jaramillo was Omar’s first choice to manage his club. Bobby Valentine was also a consideration, but not an option. Randolph – who had been linked to the Reds with Minaya as a possible manager-GM team in 2000 — was a compromise candidate, agreed on by Omar with full support – and strong suggestion — of ownership.
Then-newly hired Bernazard was never really on board with the hire, but waited until he had consolidated his power to start sowing his seeds of discontent. For nearly two seasons, Bernazard has been undermining the skipper in the clubhouse and in the front office. Thanks to The Daily News’ Bill Madden and WFAN’s Mike Francesa and Chris Russo (the latter two are sadly, vastly uninformed in other aspects of the story), his role took him out of the shadows a bit.
“(Thankfully) he’s Minaya’s problem,” said one baseball official, who spoke with Gotham Baseball Magazine on condition of anonymity. “He and Goldis are peas in a pod.”
So, the free-for-all now being directed at the Mets’ ownership, while par for the course, is ridiculous and unwarranted.
Randolph deserved to be fired at the end of last season, and 2008 should have been the beginning of a new regime. Minaya decided to keep the manager, and couldn’t bring himself to make a decision that was months in the making. He repeatedly told people in Tuesday’s press conference that it was “his decision”, yet the mudslinging of Fred and Jeff Wilpon is the main theme of what you read and hear today.
Unfair, and far from the truth.
All indications are that, even if the Mets miss the postseason again, Minaya will be safe. But will Bernazard? For the Mets’ sake – and Minaya’s – a real VP of Player Development is needed. It’s hard to imagine Minaya firing his friend, but maybe like in “What About Bob”, the Mets will find someone to take him off their hands.
Bernazard was in line for the Pirates GM job (which went to Neil Huntington), and lots of Mets’ insiders were secretly hoping he would get the gig. He didn’t. He is also being rumored to be in line for the vacant Seattle GM job.
Don’t be surprised if you see lots of crossed fingers at the next organizational meetings.
Metro -
Well done!
Great finding that article.
Sure, I remember the super scouts and that Goldis recommended Zambrano.
But, after all, he’s a scout, not an owner – or an owner’s son.
To imply a scout engineered the trade is pretty farfetched. Think about it, since when do scouts engineer a trade?
The Wilpons had to sign off on the trade. Jeff, at the time, was very much in charge of personnel and, rightfully so, was blamed for the trade.
If he wasn’t involved why was he removed from personnel decisions immediately after the trade?
And this does not really go into why the Mets were willing to give up on Kazmir. Forget the ‘win now’ attitude. You never give up on a promising lefty – unless that promising lefty was the subject of disparaging gossip.
Remember, there was a smear campaign against Kazmir months before the trade happened. Sure, Franco, Leiter and Galvine might have reported to Fred and Jeff that they didn’t like Kazmir – they might have even called him weird.
The article you presented has as much credibility as any of the other many articles that contradict it, when offering only opinions and unnamed sources.
But I appreciate your research that went into finding the article. Thanks mate.
Agee. No, it is not far-fetched at all to think they engineered the trade —
1) They were not scouts anymore. They had been hired to be advisors to the GM. They were in a similar capacity to how Ricciardi and Depodesta act with Sandy. That’s why they called them superscouts.
2) Moreover, Goldis was actually from the TB organization and had scouted Zambrano when he was there. He reportedly loved Zambrano.
And, yes of course, the owners had to sign off on the trade. Just like they always do. So in that respect they are always responsible for a team’s personnel. But the point was you think Kazmir was some grand conspiracy hatched by Jeff, Leiter and Franco, and Healey says none of those 3 were responsible for the trade.
If he wasn’t involved why was he removed from personnel decisions immediately after the trade?
LOL, you do know that a fan wrote that but there is nothing to back it up.
And I disagree with you about the credibility of Healey vs. some of the blog reports you cited. The articles you cited are mostly speculation and theory,. But Healey has actual facts and sources and quotes. Sure, he engages in some speculation. But much less so than you and the articles you used.
So I’m going to go with Healey on this matter.
Thanks Metro -
For every Healy there are a handful more articles – not blogs – pointing back at Jeff literally being sent to the minors after the Kazmir trade:
I wrote:
“If he wasn’t involved why was he removed from personnel decisions immediately after the trade?”
To which you responded:
“LOL, you do know that a fan wrote that but there is nothing to back it up.”
But most fans were aware at the time that Jeff was demoted as a direct result of the trade:
This from New York Observer sports writer John Koblin:
“The team traded away golden prospects like Scott Kazmir and signed broken-down malcontents like Jeromy Burnitz.
The press went on the attack and pointed directly to Jeff Wilpon, painting him as a rich kid incapable of managing the franchise that his father was trying to hand off to him.
That’s when Fred swooped back in, brought in Mr. Minaya and put him totally in control. The message was clear.
Jeff was left in control of smaller pet projects, like running the minor-league Brooklyn Cyclones and negotiating the terms of the lease for the team’s spring-training home in Port St. Lucie.”
That;s a fact.
Also a well known fact that certain veterans did not like Kazmir and had Jeff’s ear.
You want to go with Healy that’s your right.
I come from the school of “If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…”
The PERCEPTION is so prevalent it’s just hard to imagine anyone could be misunderstood to that degree:
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/mets/but_will_baseball_brightest_7PwTaYoBp7ZLhGuwZ4YKbP
When you’ve got people avoiding the organization because of this guy, well you have a problem whether the perception is accurate or not.
Alderson was recommended by Selig and I’ve always felt one of the biggest reasons was because Alderson was the one guy with enough MLB clout to repair some of the corporate dysfunction endemic to Met executive offices. It’s not rocket science, Sandy is an organization / administrative guru … it’s certainly at least one of the reasons he was hired.
From the article above:
“Want a sampling? A baseball executive in regular contact with the Mets: “Jeff is the problem with the organization, and he is never going to realize that. He cannot help himself. He has to be involved. He will never hire anyone who will not let him have major input. He will not hire anyone who does not run every personnel decision through him.”
An NL personnel man: “They have a problem they don’t understand: This is not a desirable location. New York is desirable, but this is the wrong borough. I don’t think it has sunk in with Jeff yet that he is running a team that the best people might not want to work for.”
An AL executive: “This is not an attractive job unless you want the money. The only person with a worse reputation then Jeff Wilpon in the game is [Marlins president] David Samson.
I guess the McCourts [Dodgers owners] also are in that conversation. Jeff’s reputation is not good in the industry. The perception is that behind the scenes he will throw people under the bus rather than take responsibility.”
This is no small sample. Ten officials were spoken to and the best anyone offered on Wilpon was this from an AL front-office man: “Jeff is a challenge, but most people [looking for a GM job] do not have the luxury of writing off the job because Jeff is there. There are only 30 of these jobs and they all come with warts.”
Forget about the fact that the vast majority of the Media perceive him as this difficult person, the INDUSTRY perceives him as this person (which is actually much worse). Do you really think it’s all somehow unfounded? I find that extraordinarily unlikely. In fact, it is so unlikely that the probability that the entirety of Jeff’s being has been thus misunderstood on such a grand scale is effectively nil.
Good morning, Matt –
The article you cite is EXACTLY what Healey is referring to when he talks about the media “relentlessly smearing” Jeff and Fred for years without any substantiation.
They are just baseless claims. Again, where are the facts? Facts about how the owners directly meddled into who the GM signed, traded for, traded away, released, promoted or demoted. Because, quite frankly, anything else is rather irrelevant. They are the owners, for heaven’s sake. They can do whatever they want with their club within reason. And I really don’t care what they do, as long as they do 3 things:
(1) Fund the team and its operations adequately
(2) Hire competent GMs and executives to run the team
(3) And generally stay out of baseball decisions
Anything else in the grand scheme of things is irrelevant. As far as I’ve seen, the Wilpons basically only failed at the second part. But we both agree, Sandy is competent and so the Wilpons did good there this time. One might argue that they’ve failed at the first responsibility. But except for the recent belt-tightening due to Madoff, I don’t have a major gripe with how they’ve funded the club and its operations. As for the last responsibility, they’ve done that very well too. Again, it’s the rare exception rather than the rule or SOP where the Wilpons have meddled into player moves. And, as I pointed out, in many of those cases (Glavine, Wright), the meddling was a positive thing (at least for most fans). And, compared to other organizations such as the McCourt Dodgers, the Yankees and Marlins, the Wilpons have been almost laissez-faire hands off!
So hey, again, they are the owners. If they want to hang out with, talk to, dine with, or play golf with any player, coach or team personnel … or tell bad and corny jokes up the kazoo, they have the right to, LOL! As long as they do all the three things I mentioned above, that’s fine with me. And, so far, there is ZERO evidence of anything remotely resembling systemic meddling into player moves. ZERO. Absolute ZILCH.
The Wilpons have been sole owners for over 10 years now and the ONLY real instance of meddling is Kazmir. C’mon, now. After 10 years you’d think there would be more right? With the Yankees I can point to Sheefield, Soraino and A-Rod, for which they are paying a heavy heavy price right now. Moreover, there are now 3 ex-Met GMs out there. None of them are under any “hush” clauses anymore. And the worst any of those 3 ex-GMs have had to say about their time with the Wilpons is that they had an open-door policy and fraternized with the “help” so to speak. Wow. Amazing!
So let the media whine all they want. You can whine all you want. Again, give me FACTS, Matt. Not baseless claims. But FACTS! Until you do, that part of your entire thesis remains a baseless theory!
One last thing – if you have to post a piece by Sherman in order to support your position you are on very shaky ground. He is about as biased as can be when it comes to reporting on the Mets. But worse than that is he is the ultimate master of the unnamed source. He will write entire articles making outrageous claims without naming one source. As someone who has a journalism degree, I think that is the shoddiest, weakest form of journalism. Sherman is so bad that I suspect he makes up many of his stories and sources. I understand the need for writers to protect sources. And there are many journalists who cover NY sports who don’t dabble in the world of unnamed sources to the wild extent Sherman does. Reporters like Rubin, Noble, and Martino. And believe me, I more often than not disagree with the opinions of Rubin, Noble and Martino. But at least I find them credible when it comes to assertions of fact. Sherman, I do not.
At any rate, get me FACTS. That’s all I want.
Agee, I initially posted my reply to you in the wrong place, so I’ll repeat it here:
Since you say there are a “handful of more” articles, can you find me just one more link that explicitly says Jeff was “demoted” due to the Kazmir incident?
In the article you linked to, the author makes a conclusion that Kazmir was the reason for Jeff’s supposed demotion. But a few things to note:
(1) Jeff had always been working closely with the Brooklyn Cyclones from day 1 of their existent in 2000 when Jeff became the Cyclone’s COO. So, Jeff likely had never stopped working with that team in some capacity, especially around 2004.
(2) Maybe there was an alleged “demotion” because Fred wanted to do what he had promised Omar – give him complete autonomy. So he wanted to do it without even having the appearance of someone hanging over his shoulder. So he MAY have told Jeff to cool it for awhile for that reason. Remember, Omar had originally refused Fred’s offer to come back to the Mets because Fred wanted him to share duties with Duquette. So to finally get him to relent, he offered him the job without him having to share anything.
Remember, Duquette was always an interim GM in Fred’s mind. That’s why there was meddling during Duquette’s regime, and in particular during the Kazmir trade.. But in that instance, it was Fred and his two superscouts who meddled. Not Jeff, Leiter, Franco or Peterson.
Healey has facts. Facts like Rick Peterson saying to another reporter (David Lennon-Newsday) that it was Goldis who was at the heart of it.
I’m going to stick with Healey’s version of things. He’s the only who’s ever written a substantive account of the matter. With facts. I have no reason to disbelieve him. Everything Healey said in his article rings true to me.
Joey — Yes I am aware that many of today’s GMs come from a more formal business and statistical background. There is no need to look for an article to support that claim since I know that to be the case. It’s just that you were referencing a discussion with someone else I had not seen and so had no clue about.
BTW, Jon Daniels is such a person who comes from that business/stats background. Do you have a problem with Jon Daniels? Theo Epstein also comes from that background. As does Andrew Friedman? Do you have a problem those two as well?
Remember a few weeks back I posted an article in which Einhardt stated he hired Sandy more because of his military backround and the leadership qualities that he got from that experience which was what he wanted from one who was going to take charge of things from him?
LOL, no Joey. I was not part of that discussion either, and I don’t regularly read all of MMO. There is not enough time in a day. So I have no clue what article you are talking about.
But as I said in another comment, yes, today’s GM has to be able to run the business side of things because baseball is now big business and more complex than it was before. There is free agency, revenue sharing, luxury taxes, draft caps, regional sports networks and cable deals — a lot of things that didn’t exist in the old days. So he has to be more multi-faceted than in the old days.
Sandy is well-equipped to handle the business side of things. And I think from the baseball side you are giving him short shrift by continually saying he is not a “baseball person.” His experience being GM of Oakland has given him plenty of baseball experience. When he doesn’t have a good feel, he will rely on others who have more experience.
Again, tell me. Are Andrew Friedman, Jon Daniels and Theo Epstein baseball people? What about Mozeliak?
Hi Metro,
Absolutely not singling out Sandy Alderson. That is why I kept on talking about the changing role of the general manager. It has changed though the responsibilities actually taken by the individual varies by club as the attachments I gave today and at other times attested to.
And what would be so wrong to acknowledge Sandy Alderson in the “baseball executive” sense more than the “baseball person” sense as many of us point out? There is nothing derogatory with that. Baseball is a billion dollar industry and corporate executives are necessary now more than ever because it is big business. Again, that rather brief article from Hardball which points out the differences with Terry Ryan and Bill Smith:
“Back when Terry Ryan stepped down as GM of the Twins in late 2007 he talked about still loving the player-evaluation part of the job, but no longer wanting to have the other responsibilities that came along with it. And his replacement, Bill Smith, has focused more on those “other” aspects of being a GM while his top assistant, Rob Antony, and various other front office members take on a bigger role in player evaluation.”
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/14/why-arent-more-mlb-general-managers-former-mlb-players/
Found the article regarding the reasons Eisenhardt hired Sandy as GM (besides the fact that they were friends). In it, he states:
“The question I’m always asked is, ‘Why didn’t you hire a baseball guy to do that rather than a lawyer?’” says Roy Eisenhardt, the former A’s president who brought Alderson to Oakland in 1980.
“I didn’t think of Sandy as a lawyer. I thought of Sandy as a really smart guy who knows how to analyze decisions and make decisions and who had had the experience of being in the Marine Corps and (serving) in Vietnam, which is a real character-building experience. Those were the skills I was looking for because I wasn’t looking for just somebody making baseball judgments.”
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/ex-marine-harvard-law-school-grad-sandy-alderson-brings-toughness-mets-trenches-article-1.192497#ixzz2NwjeyWqR
Now, regarding the changing role of the GM, of course that is not just Sandy – as the article I included pointed out, many had been hired with little or none baseball background and their involvement in baseball matters left up to those under them. And that is the point Matt was raising as well. Baseball today is seen as a business – a big corporate business and there are more general managers with no professional background in the competitive nature of the game being hired
Bill Hoynes of the Cleveland Plain Dealer wrote in November, 2010:
“Of the 30 current MLB general managers, three played in the big leagues. Five more played in the minors, and seven others played in college or coached in college or the minors. That’s a total of 15 general managers, which leaves the other 50 percent with no playing or coaching experience at a high level”.
Again, the problem I feel with Sandy is that he sincerely believes he has enough understanding of the game professionally through his study and understanding of what advanced statistics can reveal to set the tone of how he feels baseball matters should be handled and then leaves it to those beneath him to implement it. As many of us have mentioned – and this concern has been expressed by the many players and managers that have been quoted before – is that many of today’s front office executives are actually making it worse as far as the game being played.
For example, I’ve posted the concerns voiced by Tony LaRussa and Terry Francona about the emphasis on OBP and patience placed by the front office hurts hitters instead of helping them. Ojeda talked about the message being telegraphed to opposing pitchers. But Bill James himself raised the points about not trying to change major league hitters (and pitchers) and their approaches:
QUESTION: The recent recognition of plate discipline as an important part of a player’s “make-up” has led me to this question: Is ability to control the strike zone a learned skill, an innate ability, or neither/both? Could you tell us your thoughts on this question and its possible implications?
ANSWER: In pure terms it is no doubt learned. But it is learned so early, in my opinion, that, for major league players, it functions as an innate ability. I don’t think you can change a player. I don’t think that you can teach Ozzie Guillen to take a walk, any more than you can teach Doug Jones to throw a fastball.
QUESTION: Have you spoken to Nomar about not always swinging at the first pitch or do his numbers speak for himself?
ANSWER: Well, if YOU were Nomar, and Bill James started telling YOU how to play baseball, how would YOU react? Let’s not go there.
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/3503
Sandy’s emphasis on going deeper in the pitch count is on record. Bill James just explained that one should not try to interfere with a hitter once in the majors and joked about a statistician not trying to tell a good hitter to take more first pitches. Sandy should heed that advice.
That’s all for tonight – everyone, get to work safely tomorrow because conditions are going to be rough.
Hi Joey –
And what would be so wrong to acknowledge Sandy Alderson in the “baseball executive” sense more than the “baseball person” sense as many of us point out?
I’m confused. I thought you were making a distinction between a business person and a baseball person — not between a “baseball person” and a “baseball executive” … So what is it? I’m sorry, but a GM better be acting and performing like and “executive” or he isn’t doing his job right. Maybe that was the problem with Omar. He didn’t know how to be an “executive.” But bottom line is that I don’t know why you are now making a distinction between “executive” and “person” whereas in the past it was between “business” and “baseball.”
Those were the skills I was looking for because I wasn’t looking for just somebody making baseball judgments.”
He wanted someone who could do BOTH sides of the job — the baseball and the business sides. That’s why he hired Sandy. But my point is that despite what background he lacked when he took the job in Oakland that experience in Oakland gave him the baseball experience he formerly lacked. So by the time the Mets hired him, he was well-rounded in all aspects of the job.
And that is the point Matt was raising as well. Baseball today is seen as a business – a big corporate business and there are more general managers with no professional background in the competitive nature of the game being hired
Sure, agreed. And I never had any issues with that part of Matt’s article. The parts I had issues with were his pure conjecture and speculation regarding Sandy’s “mission” here, who hired him, and his saying Sandy’s purpose was not to win. That is frankly laughable, He is ascribing a tremendously greater amount to Alderson’s mission/job description with the Mets than I believe is reality. And he can’t back much of it up with facts.
Again, the problem I feel with Sandy is that he sincerely believes he has enough understanding of the game professionally through his study and understanding of what advanced statistics can reveal to set the tone of how he feels baseball matters should be handled and then leaves it to those beneath him to implement it.
Joey, I know this is how you feel. But you have no way to know what Sandy lacks in terms of baseball knowledge, what he feels he can or can’t do, or what he does or doesn’t try to do. Your are not a mindreader. It’s all just speculation on your part. Just your opinion. I totally disagree with that. I feel that Sandy, because of his Oakland background, possesses a good amount of baseball knowledge — more so than executives like Daniels or Friedman. Moreover, I think that if he feels he needs to consult with one of his three lieutenants, he has no hesitation in doing so.
As for the concerns by Francona and Larussa, I would like to see quotes from them before I comment further., I will just say that Larussa rails against almost everything and thinks he;s god’s gift to baseball. And his own front office has been heavily into sabermetics for years and that’s probably a significant reason why he won 2 titles in the last decade. If they hadn’t be, maybe he doesn’t win anything.
As for Bill James, his statement about Nomar seems to be more about not wanting to ruffle the feathers of an icon rather than his hesitation to recommend a better strategy. If the player were a minor leaguer or someone who had only been up to the majors for a year or two, the feeling would be different.
As for learning OBP, it CAN be improved at the major league level. Jose Reyes is just one player who has done that. I could find others.
You know Bill James isn’t always right. He’s also the one who doesn’t believe in a closer. I disagree with that view as do most GMs in baseball. I agree with James when it comes to statistical analysis. But when it comes to mere opinions like whether a player should be encouraged to improve OBP, I think he’s dead wrong.
Bottom line Joey is that you are shortchanging Sandy based on nothing but your own opinions.
i agree w jon this is major league not the minors lets stop w bs the mets ok are developing guys in the minors like the rest of the yankees and etc. But we need great players now. How much longer do the fans want to hear about the good the minor leaguers are now??
Alderson shows nothing to me or any kind of gm manuevers to make a winning team at all they should fire him asap. The mets had the chance to go and get curtis granderson and Russ martin and he didnt he let the yankees take him, I cant believe he let those guys get away from us. What a complete and total !@@@
You know whatvu guys have an answer for everything rvenue attenndance bs all uvguys want to do is make more money w cheap players nobody knows on the firld and make the crowd pay for it not any more so
“This discussion has officially been promoted to “epic” status, lol.”
Hey Matt,
Wait till the motion picture comes out!
Matt, I hope you get to read this with over 200 comments ahead of mine, but I think this is one of the most intelligent, well thought out entires on this sight in quite a while. That is by no means a slight to any of the other writers who are all expectional, but a complement to you for a job well done!
Hi Metro,
Thanks for finding the link.
Yes, I recognized that was not a direct quote and should have added that caveat to the point I was making as you correctly point out but I was so darn upset that the my browser had crashed that I was rushing to get my thoughts back and to thus failed to make my point clearer. Thanks for catching that on me for you were right and I would have done the same thing.
The point I wanted to make was questioning the reason behind such a phrase being used by the author and if those words were simply writer’s prose or representative of the tone that the author was getting from what Sandy had been saying about the hitters having to learn like I heard. It was obviously not an interview. I was certainly trying to imply that this was a message we were getting from Sandy but because it wasn’t a direct quote I only wanted to use it as a possible first step in making my case and that is why I added I would continue looking for me.
But the other reason for for that article, as I said, was to show the time line. There is no public indication those early months that Sandy was going to give himself a season to see if changes were needed. All the reports started filtering out in August. What we do have – from the impetus that caused my friend and I to make that geometric study through that article and with the sudden emergence of rumors followed by confirmation in August is that changes were going to be made.
But I will agree with you – Sandy must have been thinking about it for a long time because the architectural plans and design concept cannot just be developed over night and so too is filing and acquiring the standard permits required from the City for general construction. My contention – again – is only what Sandy was saying publicly – and that was indeed that the park was going to stay as it was and to make that point he talked about hitters learning how to hit home runs there. I’ll still vet back further to come up with those words or have egg on my face in finding out I was indeed wrong on something I so firmly stood by. LOL
The attached is one of many interviews with Sandy in which he admits he he had no knowledge of the professional game. In fact, in this one he states he thought it would be fun trying and he could always go back to being a lawyer:
http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110108&content_id=16409604&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb
My overall point about Sandy studying the game through statistical analysis and thus not understanding theory being different than actuality (as Bayonne said) is perhaps best summed up in this article which is indeed a homage to Sandy and in the paragraph I quote praises him for his conclusions took look for players who could draw walks and get on base more often:
“Of course, walks had been valued by various folks over the years – Ted Williams, Branch Rickey, Weaver – but what Alderson did was incorporate them into a larger philosophy of team construction. He recognized that the ability to get on base (or keep opposing batters off base) was not only undervalued in terms of winning games, but also undervalued in the talent marketplace – players who helped you win actually cost you less. So he fixed his eyes on players who could avoid outs (by getting hits or walking) while hitting for power; speed and batting average were merely secondary elements.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=schwarz_alan&id=2048402
The danger in looking at walks that a lesser hitter receives (not a Ted Williams or a Rickey Henderson with such a small strike zone) is that it is not a reflection so much of the batter but of his position in the batting order, the batters behind him and the strategic game situation. That was the point made by both Larry Bowa and Mitch Williams when Brian Kenny suggested because of the amount of walks a particular player gets who is not a good hitter, with his overall OBP being so high, that he should be leading off and not batting eighth.
Both Bowa and Williams said he would not be seeing the same type of pitches leading off as he would batting at the bottom of the order and thus there go the walks.
Also, getting on base via a walk was never undervalued in terms of winning games or enabling a lesser hitter to get on base more often. OBP has not shown any relevant increase in range (in fact, it has decreased a slight bit) in the 44 years since the last changes were made in the strike zone and height of the pitching mound) in the amount of times one reaches bases beyond those of a hit. That also presumes that batters would be undisciplined and swing at pitches either out of the strike zone or those they felt they could not handle. And, in another reply I brought of the fact that before free agency and the player’s union, there was no guarantee of one’s job and financial security – so they could not afford to play undisciplined for they would be sent back to the minors with another young kid ready to take his place.
So what Sandy concluded was always there. It was a revelation for those without a deep appreciation and knowledge of the game – professional or fan.
And the bigger danger is what Bobby Ojeda pointed out – the less aggressive (or more disciplined – one can chose his or her word) approach is working against Met hitters because it was telegraphed to pitchers.
Regarding Bill James, he also said once a player is in the majors one should not try to change his style of play. Didn’t even need to give Nomar as an example – his first response when asked about trying to make major leaguers adjust their style of play was that once players reached the majors they were already set in their ways. Sandy, with his PPPA and OBP theories, contradicts that.
So what I have always been saying is that yes, Sandy Alderson knows about baseball as a competitive sport, but what I also have been saying is that on a PROFESSIONAL level – where one has to be astute on all levels of the game – and that includes understanding player mechanics for if one can’t comprehend that about a player how can he evaluate his talent – his qualifications of being a general manager should be his involvement in the corporate side, not the baseball side. We are talking about a major league baseball team. And the points made by LaRussa, Francona, Bobby O, professional hitting instructors and others are from those who play the game.
Eisenhardt said Sandy was not a baseball person when he hired him. It was his analytical and stern leadership abilities that impressed him. Sandy admits having no prior experience in baseball decision making or in the game professionally. That he could then put together the Oakland clubs based on his own analytical and leadership skills I don’t think was the case. I provided the information about Bill Rigney, and how Sandy said Rigney was involved in every player move. One counterpoint has been that Rigney was just a “consultant” to Sandy.
Well, the definition of a consultant is a professional who provides professional or expert advice in a particular area, an expert or a professional in a specific field and has a wide knowledge of the subject matter. A consultant is used specifically in the business world to help find solutions to specific issues and the ways in which that is to be done falls to the consultant to decide. Otherwise, there would be no need for a consultant. With the resources of the entire Oakland organization under him to depend on, why should there be a need for the man on top to have use of a consultant as well? Unless in his capacity as “consultant” (which was not his official title) Bill Rigney also formulated those ideas.
Well, the definition of a consultant is a professional who provides professional or expert advice in a particular area, an expert or a professional in a specific field and has a wide knowledge of the subject matter. A consultant is used specifically in the business world to help find solutions to specific issues and the ways in which that is to be done falls to the consultant to decide. Otherwise, there would be no need for a consultant. With the resources of the entire Oakland organization under him to depend on, why should there be a need for the man on top to have use of a consultant as well? Unless in his capacity as “consultant” (which was not his official title) Bill Rigney also formulated those ideas.
A consultant does not decide. He gives his advice. It’s up to the GM to take his advice. Every team has a consultant. Frank Cashen was Steve Phillips, Al Harazin and Joe McIlvaines consultant. John Hart is Jon Daniels consultant, Pat Gillick is Ruben Amaro’s consulant so and so forth. Not just in baseball but in all sports. You just can’t get over the facts that were presented. Now you’re trying to say a consultant decides or else there would be no need for a consultant. They are there to give advice.
Good morning, Joey –
I was certainly trying to imply that this was a message we were getting from Sandy but because it wasn’t a direct quote I only wanted to use it as a possible first step in making my case and that is why I added I would continue looking for me.
Since it’s not a direct quote, and just this writer’s interpretation of events, then I have to dismiss it. Moreover, surely the direct quote was available, so you have to wonder why he didn’t use it. And I believe he was referring to Sandy’s introductory press conference and not something Sandy said months later.
It is a form of poor reporting, and it is why I avoid Bleacher Report (unless using for sourced assertions of fact or direct quotes).
There is no public indication those early months that Sandy was going to give himself a season to see if changes were needed.
Again, Joey, I remember seeing something early on, well before the fall of 2011. I can’t find it now (I looked) and you know I have no hesitation to back up what I say when I can find a source. You’ll just have to take my word on it.
The attached is one of many interviews with Sandy in which he admits he he had no knowledge of the professional game.
Of course, when he took that first job in Oakland, he had no knowledge of the professional game! But that’s not the point. The point is, was Sandy a “baseball man” by the time he took the job with the Mets? I think most certainly he was. He had become one well before that — during his time with Oakland. He learned on the job.
But Joey, I got to thank you for linking to that article. I had never read that piece by DiComo before. As I read it, it clearly busts that notion that Sandy was forced upon the Mets, assigned by Selig, that he didn’t really want the job, and that he is here only to be the hatchet man. Here are just a few salient excerpts which shows the myriad personal reasons why he took the job:
“Though he was hesitant to leave his unfinished work in the Dominican, Alderson, in turn, viewed the job as a rare opportunity to run a big-market club without significant budget restraints or limitations. “‘Moneyball’ with money” is what DePodesta calls it. Alderson refers to it as “very attractive.”"
“One of the reasons he took the job is because he knew his dad would absolutely love it,” said Alderson’s son, Bryn. “Of course he loves the challenge and loves getting back in the game and getting back that competitive feeling, but he really loves sharing the game with his family.”
“I think the challenge of that job with the Mets,” Beane said, “is what made it so attractive to him.”
“My overall point about Sandy studying the game through statistical analysis and thus not understanding theory being different than actuality (as Bayonne said) is perhaps best summed up in this article”
Joey, nowhere in that article you linked to does it say that Sandy does not understand that in some cases theory is different from actuality. In a large majority of cases, sabermetric theory is the same as actuality. Usually the problem is not with sabermetric theory, it’s with the person using it putting it in the wrong context. For example, Ken Davidoff using WAR for catchers to decide Piazza’s HOF fate. WAR for catchers is notoriously weak.
The danger in looking at walks that a lesser hitter receives (not a Ted Williams or a Rickey Henderson with such a small strike zone) is that it …
I have partially read them and they are downright entertaining! I only wish I had more time to read each thoroughly, but right now I am particularly busy with personal and business issues. And one can spend weeks debating OBP!
LOL, Joey, I’m not going to get into a separate debate about walks and OBP here. It is a sideshow to this post by Matt and there is not enough time anyway. Aren’t there separate threads right now by Connor and Matt regarding this anyway right now?
Regarding Bill James, he also said once a player is in the majors one should not try to change his style of play. Didn’t even need to give Nomar as an example – his first response when asked about trying to make major leaguers adjust their style of play was that once players reached the majors they were already set in their ways. Sandy, with his PPPA and OBP theories, contradicts that.
I believe this might be true in a lot of cases. But not in all. I gave you Jose Reyes as an example of one player who had increased his plate discipline and walks after he got to the majors. Do you want more names?
And the points made by LaRussa, Francona, Bobby O, professional hitting instructors and others are from those who play the game.
But none of those are GMs so how is that point relevant to Sandy?
I provided the information about Bill Rigney, and how Sandy said Rigney was involved in every player move. One counterpoint has been that Rigney was just a “consultant” to Sandy.
Joey, I read Fonzies reply to you on this point and I have to agree with him here. Many GMs consult with others. Amaro consults with Gillick. Davey Johnson was a consultant with the Nats before he became their manager (he was responsible for the Nats taking Jesus Flores away from the Mets). Heck, Omar bought in Sandy Johnson to be his personal consultant- assistant. It’s a sign of a good executive that he listens to others. The moment anyone thinks they know it all and they try to do it all is the moment when risk the most failure. So I really think you are making too big a deal of Rigney. Sandy’s comments about him may have been more about being humble and gracious in crediting others than anything else.
Bottom line is that, yes, Sandy had little or no experience in baseball prior to taking the Oakland job. But he learned on the job. And by the time he came to the Mets, he was certainly a “baseball person.”
Hi Metro,
But one must take into account what a consultant is. In the professional world, a consultant is used when one does not have the skills and methodology in a certain area and lacks the personnel who do. A consultant is engaged to assess specific issues AND THEN DECIDES the course of action to take – of course, within constraints such as budget and resources. An advisor simply provides various options for someone to consider and decide upon.
Where I work we have hired consulting firms for a varation of purposes, not to advise us but to do a certain job for us because it was out of our field of expertise. We relied on the consultant from beginning to completion.
The Mets hired CRG for the same purpose due to their financial situation. This is how CRG describes their services on their website:
“As the world’s largest management consulting firm, we help organizations build value by uncovering insights that create new futures and doing the hard work to improve performance
“Our clients look to us for the ability to implement the ideas we present. They expect excellent performance that draws upon our breadth of industry and service experience. Simply put, we provide our clients with world-class insights that generate tangible and measurable impact”.
CRG implements the ideas they present.
Bill Rigney was an executive assistant whom we all agree Sandy Alderson consulted with regarding every player move . Executive consultants provide expertise to companies about subjects that employees need help with and in Rigney’s case, he was offering solutions and plan ways to improve the team – his area of expertise.
There would not be a need for an Assistant to the President in Baseball Matters to be involved in every player decision (as Sandy said) if the decision making was being handled by the general manager based on the advice received from those under him.
Again, there is a difference between being a consultant and being an advisor. The consultant is relied so much more heavily for decision making.
Again, look at the background of both Sandy and Bill. With Sandy’s professed lack of knowledge he didn’t need advise as he needed consultation – excactly what RIgney provided.
Know we disagree on this but wanted you to see where I was coming from and seeing how baseball had emerged into a major business corporation over the past few decades and how it is affecting the front office.
How’s things going otherwise?
Joey,
In the professional world, a consultant is used when one does not have the skills and methodology in a certain area and lacks the personnel who do.
You’re giving a very strict and formal definition of consultancy which is not applicable to how GMs in baseball use consultants. There is no single definition of “consultant” in the baseball world. Sometimes these consultants are just old friends of the GM, sometimes they are ex-scouts, sometimes ex-GMs, sometimes ex-managers as we saw with Davey Johnson. It doesn’t mean the decision making has been taken out of the hands of the GM or the GM lacks some skills.
Just for the sake of this discussion, lets use your very formal definition for a second. And lets say Sandy was handheld in Oakland. Well that was then, and this is now. So even if your strict definition for consultancy were true in Sandy’s Oakland days, he has grown from his past experiences and no longer needs that degree of assistance.
Bill Rigney was an executive assistant whom we all agree Sandy Alderson consulted with regarding every player move .
And, no, we don’t all agree that was the case. Sounds like an exaggeration — effusive praise given out of Alderson’s graciousness and own humility. Now it’s very possible Sandy consulted with him for most moves, but likely not all.
And by the way, you wanna bet Omar “consulted” with Sandy Johnson on almost every move he made when he was Mets GM? In fact, I specifically remember Omar talking about how he uses his assistants and asks for their opinions all the time. It’s a rare GM who makes all these decisions on their own. It’s probably is the exception rather than the rule. They all consults with other people.
Again, there is a difference between being a consultant and being an advisor.
Not really. Not how we’re talking about the functions of people like Gillick, Sandy Johnson, and Rigney. here. In fact, Rigney’s official title was assistant to the president (not consultant) and he also advised Larussa:
From 1982 until his death Rigney — who was known simply as “Rig” to those close to baseball — worked with the A’s as a special assistant to the president.
“He was great with people at all levels of the organization, from the front office to those of us in uniform,” Cardinals manager Tony La Russa, who was managing the A’s at the time, said by telephone from Florida. “I knew I could rely on his knowledge and his honesty. You need to hear the truth, but you don’t always get it. You did with him. He was a very smart man.”
And it’s clear from the article I got that from, when Sandy said he relied on Rigney for every move, it was in the context of eulogizing statements! So of course one exaggerates people’s contributions during those times.
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/It-Musta-Been-Rigged-Bill-Rigney-dead-at-83-2949823.php
So, I just disagree with you. You are putting your own spin on events to match your opinions. Rigney was not even a formal “consultant” with the A;s at that time.
As for how am I doing? Busy. Wish I had more time to read the threads here, honestly. How about you? Hope your allergies are under control.
“But one must take into account what a consultant is. In the professional world, a consultant is used when one does not have the skills and methodology in a certain area and lacks the personnel who do. A consultant is engaged to assess specific issues AND THEN DECIDES the course of action to take – of course, within constraints such as budget and resources. An advisor simply provides various options for someone to consider and decide upon”
No that is not an accurate description of what a consultant does. How do I know this? I had been a consultant in a brokerage firm for over a decade as a former stockbroker. Consultants do not make decisions. That is 100% inaccurate. Consultants whether it be sports, real estate brokerage firm or any other industry advise their clients or in the case of an in-house consultant as I was their employer to make business decisions to improve their company, sports franchise, etc… We, they do not make decisions. It’s up to the client and or employer to take the consultants advice on the course of action. They do not decide on the course of action. Often times they do and sometimes they don’t. You are reaching way too far to disparage Sandy Alderson. Now that you have finally conceded that Rigney was in fact consulting the GM and President you have now gone even further to try and make your point stick.
Joey, to be honest, I skipped over MOST of what you wrote about FORMAL consultancy because frankly it is irrelevant to the discussion as Rigney was not a formal consultant.
But I just read Fonzies latest reply on that matter and he is right. A formal consultant group does not make the decisions. I hadn’t realized you were saying that, but you are wrong if that’s what you think.
You know when the Mets brought in CRG? They did NOT make decisions for the Mets. They merely studied the organization and its past, as well as future goals. Then based on their specialized areas of expertise made specific and detailed recommendations to the Mets on ways to improve their operations. I believe the Mets have followed many of those recommendations, and there are likely many they didn’t follow. CRG likely gave them various recommended solutions for the same problem anyway, so the Mets could pick and choose which way to go.
But, again, Rigney was NOT a formal consultant to Oakland in any way shape or form, so why veer off into a discussion of formal consultancy? It’s not an efficient use of time.
What Rigney did way back when was not too different from what Gillick does for Amaro. Or what Sandy Johnson did for Omar.
Stay tuned Metro! He will be back to put another spin on it. This debate has been going on for a year now. The first time he claimed Rigney made all the trades, free agent signings and draft picks, while Sandy only handled the business end, even though I showed him proof that Eisenhardt handled the business side. I showed him about a dozen or so links showing him all the player acquisitions, he made, how he overruled his scouts recommendation by drafting Mark McGwire over Odibe McDowell and Shane Mack because of McGwires power and On base ability rather than the far more gifted athletic players his scouts thought would be the better picks. He gave me a link to a website that explains the grading scale that scouts use to say Sandy couldn’t have made any of player acquistions and that’s how he drew the conclusion that it must’ve been Rigney making those calls.
I’ve been squashing hs conjecture for a year now and he still insists Sandy couldn’t have done it. He acts like Sandy came in from Bangladesh with a heavy accent and said “What is this basaball, I think I try to make team”. Common sense alone would tell you that if Sandy was only handling the business side he would’ve remained as the teams legal counsel like he did his first two years and Rigney would’ve been made the GM instead of the Special Assistant/Assistant GM. There would be no need to elevate Sandy to the GM and VP of Baseball Ops.
Matt -
Congratulatiosn on this post.
Obviously you opened the window when you got up and felt which way the wind was blowing.
It’s posts like this that make this blog the best Mets information/discussion site around.
Plenty of good informative debate particularly from Metro among others.
Well done Mate.
Metro -
for some reason I’m unable to reply to your specific post so hopefully you’ll find this.
You wrote:
” Maybe there was an alleged “demotion” because Fred wanted to do what he had promised Omar – give him complete autonomy. So he wanted to do it without even having the appearance of someone hanging over his shoulder. So he MAY have told Jeff to cool it for awhile for that reason.”
You don’t even have to read between the lines with what you wrote to show that Jeff was removed from day to day personnel moves
The reason people were fired and Omar was brought in and demanded autonomy was because of the FO dysfunction which resulted in Kazmir being traded. Jeff was the ring leader of that dysfucntion – he oversaw personnel decisions for the club. Jeff wasn’t fired because he is fred’s kid. But he was, in fact, demoted….deep sixed…told to leave his Shea office keys with reception…given the boot…
You also wrote: “Healey has facts. Facts like Rick Peterson saying to another reporter (David Lennon-Newsday) that it was Goldis who was at the heart of it.”
Peterson as a source on Kazmir? Puhleeeze. This is the dude who – before the trade – boasted that he could fix Zambrano in ten minutes. Like he didn’t have a dog in this fight? The amount of butt covering – including Jeff and Rick – over the Kazmir trade is outstanding. It would make for a great comedy.
However, I will admit that I’ve enjoyed our debate – I appreciate that you see things differently then me. And thanks for the research from your side.
Agee — this entire thread got messed up because some posts were deleted by Joe D. So a lot of things aren’t tracking right.
You don’t even have to read between the lines with what you wrote to show that Jeff was removed from day to day personnel moves
No, I myself was speculating. And notice I said “alleged” demotion. Meaning I’m not too sure there was a real one or not. You said there were, what, dozens of articles to back up that part of your claim? Can you find other link? The Observer piece is pretty vague.
As I said, Omar did not demand autonomy because Jeff had instigated the Kazmir trade, Omar demanded complete autonomy more than a year earlier when Fred first approached him about the job. But Fred wouldn’t give it to him then. So Omar refused the job. it was NOT because of Jeff he got full autonomy. . It was because that was what Omar always wanted and refused to take the job otherwise. That’s a FACT. What you wrote isn’t — you wrote about a connect-the-dots theory.
As for Peterson, sorry, but he DID say that thing about Goldis. Unless you’re going to believe only what you want to believe. And everyone knows about that “10 minute” remark. LOL,that doesn’t mean he engineered the trade. To think that the pitching coach was behind such a momentous trade and to point fingers at him is frankly quite ludicrous and nonsensical.
I continue to be amazed that when presented by facts that point to Goldis and Livesey as being behind the Kazmir trade, some still want to blame the usual but mostly blameless suspects — Jeff, Leiter, Franco and Peterson. It was the two superscouts and Fred who are most to blame for the debacle. Put the blame where it deserves to be. Not where YOU want it to be.
Hey Metro -
Blame? Facts?
“I continue to be amazed that when presented by facts that point to Goldis and Livesey as being behind the Kazmir trade, some still want to blame the usual but mostly blameless suspects — Jeff, Leiter, Franco and Peterson. It was the two superscouts and Fred who are most to blame for the debacle. Put the blame where it deserves to be. Not where YOU want it to be.”
Putting the blame where it deserves to be – using only facts?
Ok, let me try. Jeff was in charge of player personnel and Kazmir was traded under his watch. That’s one place where the blame deserves to be.
Rick Peterson?
” In July 2004, Peterson allegedly said he could “fix” Tampa Bay Devil Rays pitcher Victor Zambrano in “10 minutes” and that Mets’ top prospect and former first-round draft pick Scott Kazmir was at least 3 years away from being a Major League pitcher.”
Well, does anyone still think he ‘allegedly’ said it?
Rick Peterson was not just the pitching coach but he was – according to the owner: “The CEO of pitching”. If Peterson endorsed the trade – which he did -= then he is extremely responsible and deserves some of the blame.
By the way, Peterson was wrong on both counts about Zambrano and Kazmir.
That’s another place where blame deserves to be.
Now if Jeff and Rick want to blame a ‘superscout’ that’s fine. Who knows, maybe Goldis did hold a gun to their collective heads and force them to make the trade.
As far as Leiter and Franco go – did they disparage Kazmir? Were they also partially to blame? Well, according to what I read at the time, they were. In fact, Bob Klapisch – who, according to your Healy: “At the time, I was working at the Associated Press, knew of Klapsich’s reputation (which was excellent)”. had this to say in an article in 2004: “Leiter and I stopped speaking to each other in 2004, when I wrote that he was partially responsible for getting Scott Kazmir traded to the Devil Rays.”
But, as I said repeatedly, I respect your right to disagree – in a way we are both speculating because neither of us were there.
However, I’m not going to go to the trouble of linking anymore articles when you dismiss the one I’ve already linked.
Either way – thanks for the debate.
Agee –
Jeff was in charge of player personnel and Kazmir was traded under his watch.
Huh? No. Jeff was NOT in charge of player personnel. The GM at the time, Duquette, was in charge of player personnel. Unfortunately, Goldis and Livesey usurped Duquette’s power and engineered the Kazmir deal.
Well, does anyone still think he ‘allegedly’ said it? … Rick Peterson was not just the pitching coach but he was – according to the owner: “The CEO of pitching”. If Peterson endorsed the trade – which he did -= then he is extremely responsible and deserves some of the blame.
I have no doubt he said that. In fact I’ve heard interviews with Peterson where he didn’t deny at all that he said it. But he did say that it was blown out of proportion. And CEO of pitching = pitching coach in most organizations. No big deal. If you think the pitching coach should be blamed for a deal because he simply endorsed it, well that’s absolutely nuts. If Dan Warthen had endorsed Marcum before they signed him, and he stinks, well then would that make Warthen responsible for the signing? If you say yes, well then you are crazy. And I hate Warthen!
By the way, Peterson was wrong on both counts about Zambrano and Kazmir.
Didn’t Peterson also say that because of Kazmir’s mechanics, he didn’t foresee a long healthy career? That it was a warning sign? If so, he was right on that. Kazmir’s career has been remarkably short. Though he appears to be on the comeback trail. I wish him well.
Who knows, maybe Goldis did hold a gun to their collective heads and force them to make the trade.
Goldis and Livesey didn’t need a gun. They had something more effective – power conferred to them directly by Fred Wilpon, the man who hand-picked them. It doesn’t get any better than that. Fred ruled the roost totally at that time – still does today as we found out during the Madoff crisis.
As far as Leiter and Franco go – did they disparage Kazmir?
Apparently so. But to suggest that they lobbied for the Mets to trade him is ludicrous. Did anyone say that? Bet you can’t find anything that says that, apart from unsupported idle speculation from the likes of you.
in a way we are both speculating because neither of us were there.
You are speculating more. Healey has presented more supporting facts for his viewpoint than those with an opposite view have presented.
Jeff Wilpon even said that, initially, he was the only one who opposed the trade. But of course you’re going to say he lied.
However, I’m not going to go to the trouble of linking anymore articles when you dismiss the one I’ve already linked.
I dismiss them because they are woefully short on facts. It’s a bunch of unsupported, baseless accusations, claims and speculation. Present some hard facts — the way Healey did – and maybe I’d say your story had credibility.
I bet you that if Duquette ever tells the full story he would confirm that Goldis and Livesey were at the root of the trade. He would laugh at the suggestion it was Leiter, Franco and Peterson.
My good friend Metro -
I’ve really enjoyed this debate.
As I’ve said – we will just have to agree to disagree.
At the end of the day, both of us could be partially right and wrong. But is one of us ‘laughable’? No.
I believe what I do because of what I read at the time. You are doing the same.
Was Duquette GM at the time? Yes. Was he able to act as GM with complete control over player personnel – well that is a grey area. Did Jeff Wilpon really oversee player personnel as has been written numerous times? Well, it depends on whether you believe what was written.
Was Rick Peterson anointed a pitching genius by Wilpon – Yes. Did his endorsement carry a lot of weight in the Kazmir trade? One would think so.
Did your guy Healy say that Klapisch was excellent in his coverage? Yes he did. Did Klapisch say that Leiter wouldn’t talk to him anymore because he – Klapisch =- said Al was partially involved in the Kazmir trade? Yes he did.
Did Jeff and Rick distance themselves from the trade after all the public backlash and did they have a motive to do so? Well, again, one would think so – not you obviously.
Anyway, I’m done with this topic – I’m not going to convince you with facts as I see it and you’re not going to convince me with facts as you see it.
thanks for the conversation mate – would love to buy you a beer if you ever make it to Australia.
Well hello down under! Agee, I had no clue you were an Aussie or a transplanted American. Since you are a Mets fan, I gather it’s the latter, or else how in hell did you come to root for the Mets?
Look, one can write whatever they want in this age of blogs. But Just writing it doesn’t make it true. And somehow, some people read blogs and believe everything they read. You need facts to back up your contention:
1) Jeff Wilpon did not head up personnel in 2004. And you won’t find anywhere a substantiated statement that says he did. Duquette was the GM and even though an interim one, he headed up personnel. Was there meddling? Yes, because he wasn’t trusted. There was likely meddling all year long from everyone – Fred, Jeff and Goldis and Livesey. But in the specific Kazmir case, it was Goldis and Livesey who engineered that deal, and Healey documents that with facts.
2) Carrying a lot of weight doesn’t make one responsible for a decision. Anyone who blames Peterson for Kazmir is way off base. It’s ludicrous to blame the pitching coach for a trade like that.
3) Did Klapisch back up his allegation with a fact? Like HOW Leiter influenced the Kazmir trade? Did Leiter go to the owners and tell them to trade the kid? Did he call up Chuck Lamar himself? Did he drive Kazmir to the airport? LOL. If there are no supporting fact, it’s baseless. We all know there was an incident between Leiter-Franco and Kazmir over clubhouse music. But to stretch that into them getting Kazmir traded is ridiculous.
4) Of course Peterson and Jeff had reason to distance themselves from the trade. Because it was the truth. Truth is reason enough. Someone having a good reason to say something doesn’t make them unbelievable. If someone accused you of being a serial killer, you’d have a good reason to let the truth out too and deny it, right? So that makes you unbelievable?
So do you watch the games down under? Most games must come in the middle of the night or very early morning, so how do you cope? I guess because everything is upside down there, all the losses look like wins, eh? Must make being a Mets fan far easier in Australia!
If I ever get to Australia, I’ll ring you up for a beer!
Metro -mets fan since they began. My pop was a reporter and got to watch the mets play Baltimore in the World Series. Got into the locker room after game two and met all the players.
Moved to Sydney in 95. Am a journalist myself and did some sports reporting many years ago. Filled in a couple of times for Chris Russo when he was on WMCA.
I do find it a bit hard to debate a guy who says that what his article states (Healy) contain facts yet my article (Klapisch) is baseless. But ok.
I’m sure we’ll eventually find something to agree on.
Take care.
Hi Metro,
Well, a few hours after my browser crashed and I had to quickly re-write my response on what I now forget what it was about too
I was awaken by a loudspeaker outside our building advising us that the power was off and they were in the process of fixing it. Needless to say, it was hard to get back to sleep, when the power came back on it woke me up and I had to re-set my clock radio so it would wake me up at the proper time – which resulted in headaches that made me just take the next day off.
As far as what you felt was meant by Sandy regarding Rigney and Citi Field, as a journalist yourself you know that is editorilzing and stating an opinion to influence others – nothing wrong with that, of course, but it is not being investigative and impartial. All I did was quote Sandy and then commenting based solely on the merit of his words – not what I think they might have meant. Of course, that Bleacher Report quote was more to establish the first step of a pattern and it was because I was alread rushing to get my thoughts back in writing after they were originally lost due to the browser crashing I failed to indiate that I knew it was a third party opinion and not a direct quote from Sandy. Just wanted to point out that others were also getting the same vibes in January that was different that what was being reported by the media in August.
Nighty night my cyber friend. BTW – due to injuries the Yankee starting eight appears to have almost as many holes as we do.
Hi Joey — What browser are you using? Try Firefox. I use that and its pretty reliable. No crashes (well hardly any). Sorry to hear about your browser and power issues. Hope all is back to normal.
Regarding Sandy’s words on Rigney, yes I was interpreting that. But I wasn’t interpreting anything I mentioned the quotes I saw from Sandy — early in his regime — that he was going to consider very seriously changing the fences at Citi after a year of observing how the park played. That was real.
And it’s also a real fact that Rigney’s title was NOT consultant but special assistant. So I’m not sure where you’re getting this idea it was a very formal consultancy thing. As I said, I bet Omar consulted with Sandy Johnson on almost every single move he made (and if it wasn’t Sandy Johnson, it was likely Bernazard, lol!).
Anyway, you have a nice night too. I am enjoying the Yankees plight very much, haha. Just as enjoyable — maybe even more so — is hearing Mike Francessa get all irritated on the radio about it. Do you know he is unhappy with Cashman for his inaction and thinks the Yankees have to immediately go out and trade for someone to replace Teixeira? He has even mentioned Mourneau. As if the Twins are going to send the Yankees Mourneau! LOL.
Hi Metro,
I used the word “browser” purposly for that is all I really use at home – it’s the Logitech Revenue which works in conjunctin with Google Chrome and Google TV – it’s like a smart television but with a set-top box. Yup, hear Francesca all the time about the Yankees going out and getting something and disagreeing with Sweeny Murtie who reports that the Yankees are going to hold tight.
Actually, I never called Bill Rigney a “consultant” but used it in my analysis because that is what some others have used to describe the work he did at Oakland.
Know all those attachments regarding statistical analysis and “correlation does not imply causation” but I thought it was important to point out how experts caution about coming to false conclusions based on the collection and analysis of data. Take that into account the deep divide between those professional insiders who disagree with the emphasis on OBP – not in terms of the importance on getting on base – but how to achieve it as opposed to Sandy who, for example, emphasiszed that the Mets run scoring went down becausethe stats showed a correlation between PPPA and scoring.
If we look at the explanation by LaRussa he details it in terms of the strategy between pitcher and batter like one might not get a better pitch to hit. Bobby Ojeda recognized as a player that the Mets were letting the opposition know they were laying off certain pitches early and thus gave the pitcher the opportunity to get ahead on the count If we look at those from the saber side, we find plate the goal is to improve OBP as being taught by Dave Hudgens as follows:
“Hunt your pitch,”
“We want to do damage in the middle of the plate.”
“If he doesn’t give you that pitch? We’re walking to first base.”
The author mentions Hudgens saying, in general, his players hit .200 on the outer edges. “We want to hit these 13 inches in the middle.”. As LaRussa and Francona contended in those attachments sent earlier, one doesn’t know if he is ever going to get that type of pitch to hit and the pitchers are going to nibble at the corners.
But what Hudgens just said also contradicts what the author attributes him to also professing: “The goal is not to remodel every player. Hudgens’ job is to nudge everyone in the same direction: Isolate a hitter’s strength — a location he likes, a pitch he prefers — and persuade that hitter to focus there.” How does that conform to “We want to hit these 13 inches in the middle.” and “If he doesn’t give you that pitch? We’re walking to first base.”?
The attached I think is an accurate accounting of how Sandy Alderson came to this conclusion as well:
“Alderson considered himself a baseball neophyte when he became the Athletics’ general manager in 1983. He was willing to reach outside baseball’s cloister. He began reading Bill James’ annual treatises. He also hired a man named Eric Walker as a consultant.”
Notice that word “consultant”?
But as I said, experts in the field of stastical analysis caution about coming to false conclusions based on the collection and analysis of data. Could the experts in the field of baseball be those who played the game instead of one who read up on it?
And yes, I recognize the counterpoint that Sandy since could have picked up an appreciation of the art of the game, those intangibles that was spoken about by Bill James. But in his conversations the past season, Sandy has shown no sign of picking up on that. Could not offer an opinion on one’s mechanics because he wasn’t a player and then the correlation between PPPA and run production. If he was able to participate in conversations in the manner of Ralph Kiner, Keith Hernandez, Tom Seaver and others, then I would say, yes, Sandy has a better grasp of the game on the professional level required for one taking the responsibility for evaluating and decision making of baseball matters.
Ciao
Hi Metro,
And being me, I of course forgot to provide the link to the attachment I was referring to.
http://www.nj.com/mets/index.ssf/2012/03/mets_hitting_coach_dave_hudgen_1.html
It’s a great article but, as I mentioned, with contraditions. One is correct to teach hitters better displine and to better recognize pitches that are going to go into the dirt or be outside, etc and not swing at them. But those are pitches outside the strike zone. The emphasis that early in the count one goes for those 13 inches is what Ojeda pointed out as an invitation for pitchers to throw their first pitch on the corners and get a quick strike to get ahead in the count 0-1. In essance, both instances – swinging at bad pitches outside the zone and not swinging at pitches outside the 13 inches of the palte – result in the same thing, a strike.
The pitcher knows the batter’s weakness and the batter knows the pitcher knows it. The continuing question is will the pitcher make a mistake and throw one in the hitter’s zone or will the hitter be forced to swing at a less desirable pitch knowing that is possibility all he is going to see? No statistic in the world is going to provide the best percentage to that – nor can anything else, either. So, one should not use stats to influence changing a hitter’s approach.
As I said, there are contraditions in the manner in which Hudgens speaks. I think he would be best to ignore the 13 inches and concentrate more on the hitter’s own individual zone which I’m sure he has a good background of helping one do just that.
LOL, Joey, disregard the part in my previous comment where I ask you for a link. I started replying to you BEFORE you posted the link. I’ll read the article and get back to you.
Good morning, Joey …
You mention attachments in your post but there are no links. I can’t comment on quotes and opinions in articles that are not linked to because they are out of context. But a few facts and general comments on this matter:
1) On the infamous OBP — study after study has shown a close correlation between OBP and run scoring. Is it the only way to score runs? Of course not. But it is one of the most tried and true ways. You won’t find many experts today who will disagree with that. Most of them know it works. Find me one true “expert” who says that OBP doesn’t relate closely to runs scored.
2) Rigney — Even you admit his title wasn’t “consultant” so why go on about what a formal consultant in the business world does? And even if “consultant” had been his title, why would anyone think Alderson didn’t learn from him and others while GM of Oakland? So that by the time he came to the Mets he was one of the most well-rounded men in baseball?
3) “But in his conversations the past season, Sandy has shown no sign of picking up on that. Could not offer an opinion on one’s mechanics because he wasn’t a player and then the correlation between PPPA and run production. “
Can you be specific as to what you are talking about? Quotes and links, please.
4) “…able to participate in conversations in the manner of Ralph Kiner, Keith Hernandez, Tom Seaver and others ”
LOL, Joey, there is a reason Kiner, Keith, Seaver and “others” were never GMs. And what GM today could sit down with those folk when they were talking about the nuts and bolts of hitting and pitching and be able to speak with authority? Cashman? Nope. Friedman? Nope? Daniels? Nope, Epstien? Nope. Rizzo? Probably not. I could go on and on. So why are you expecting Alderson to be able to?
I really don’t get it. Alderson has as much or more “baseball” experience than most GMs today. Why is there even an issue about this?
Would you rather go back to the Omar type who had poor skills as an executive and administrator, leaving the roster in a big fat financial mess and neglecting the farm system? For me, not in a million years.
Metro! There’s no use trying to convince Joey of the facts. No matter how much evidence that has been presented on this matter Joey is going to disregard it and draw his own conclusions based solely on his own speculation due to the fact that he hates Sandy Alderson.
Just look at the reasons he gives alone that he believes are an indication that Sandy is not a baseball person. Saying that Sandy said the Met players would have to learn how to hit HR’s at Citifield (Sandy never said that), saying they need to man up ( Sandy never said that), not giving an opinion of Ike Davis’ struggles last year, saying Sandy only understands the game through statistical analysis (Sandy never said that), saying Sandy doesn’t give opinions based on ones mechanics ( Sandy never said he could or couldn’t), saying Bill Rigney was the architect of the A’s when they were successful and Sandy was the one who made the decisions when they failed. He doesn’t think it’s possible for a guy who came from outside baseball to make baseball decisions because he did not play the game. Sandy did play 2B in college. I can go on and on with a bigger list of ridiculous reasons he’s given to make it look like Sandy isn’t a baseball person. I have explained to him that most of the GM’s in the game came from the same backround as Sandy and he has made excuses as to why it is not the same thing. I used Andrew Friedman as an example as someone with no prior professional experience, his answer was Friedman got a scholarship to play baseball at Tulane. Theo Epstein never even played HS or College ball, his excuse was Epstein wrotabout sports in college. I gave him links to articles stating A’s scouts Bill Gayton and Grady Fuson admitting Sandy introduce statistical analysis to amateur scouting, he said the writer was just speculating. Do you get my drift? You know Sandy’s accomplishments, I know them, MLB executives know them, A’s owner Walter Haas acknowleged Sandy as the one who put that team together. His peers, his contemporaries and his colleagues all acknowledge his accomplishments but the readers at MMO are supposed to believe one man who hates him. lol
Fonzie, I agree with all your points about Sandy. But don’t worry. Joey and I are just discussing things in a civil manner. I have no issues with him on a personal level the way I do with you-know-who. Joey acts like an adult and he’s smart enough not to attempt to argue that RBIs “correlate” to runs scored, unlike you-know-who. (At least I have not seen any such argument from Joey on that one.) And Joey is literate. Unlike you-know-who whose mish-mosh English is sometimes very hard to understand. So no need to worry. Things never get out of hand with me and Joey. But I appreciate your comment. Keep up the good fight!
Well I agree with you in that you will be able to have a civil discussion with him unlike you know who but as far as acting like an adult. Sorry I can’t buy that one. When a person goes to the extent that he does to discredit the mans accomplishments, not only speculating but putting words in his mouth like saying the players need to man up and learn how to hit HR’s at Citifield and for a year go around not only here at MMO but on other sites and claim a special assistant aka advisor and consultant is the man who built that team, even after cold hard facts have proven him wrong. That’s not adult like conduct. By the way You know how is the one who put in his head that Rigney was the decision maker after he initially tried to claim it was Roy Eisenhardt. He even thanked you know who for the insight. lol
Well, Fonzie,
Before making a judgement about one acting like an adult, remember who was the one whom a few days ago had about 25 of his comments deleted.
And also remember the individual about whom the owner had nice things to say about – and asked him directly – and publicly for all to see – to let him know immediately of anybody attacking that individual’s integrity and he would handle it himself?
I actually should take all that you say about me as a compliment for anyone who needs to try and humiliate another to the degree and vicious manner in which you do must be very jealous in order to get so infuriated.
Oh give me a break. You make up stories and when challenged to back it up with facts you go run to Joe D and cry about it. You did the same thing to Des and the same thing to Mr North. You accused both of personally attcking you which neither ever did. You cried to Joe to get my posts deleted. They were 100% true.
One with integrity need not make up artificial facts to prove a point that never existed. What’s infuriating is an adult your age going to the extent you do and for a year to make up lies about the same topic. Believe me I’m not the only one here who sees this. I’m the only one that says anything because the others don’t want to constantly revisit a point with you that has nothing to do with the current day Mets. Everyone knows you repeat the same story every day and want no part of rereading your 5000 word posts. I get emails from others here about how they can’t believe the measures you take to make a point.
Dude, you are the one with the problem and the obsession disorder with Joey. That is what everyone on this site knows. You follow him around like a cocker spaniel sniffing his butt. I had to comment because I found your comment to be hysterical from the point of view of what me and everyone else see regarding your obsession with him, which borders on harassment or something worse. The fact that a friend of mine was banned for basically doing and saying some of the same things you do here daily is baffling to me. But as Alex says, you write for the site so you are an immortal as he likes to say. It’s only okay to hurl insults if you’re a writer here, that’s how it seems to work.
Hi Kmax,
Just a note of thank you from me. Your words were very much appreciated and I believe one would not be honest with his or her self to say those type remarks do not hurt.
On another more lighter note, it just occurred to me that there are so many holes and injuries on both the Mets and Yankees that combined they couldn’t field a starting nine of first string players. It’s going to be a long hot summer here in New York and I honestly see with Toronto improved, if Baltimore proves it wasn’t just a one year wonder and with Tampa Bay always fielding a competitive team that it won’t be just the Mets finishing below .500 this year.
Fonzie, if one believes strongly in their views, then they are going to continue to argue and debate all angles of it. I have no issues with a persistent arguer. Joey is such a fan — passionate about his views. Like many of us are. Like you-know-who is. Joey believes in his positions strongly. So I can’t blame him for arguing his point of view however he wants to. I appreciate that things never devolve into name-calling or juvenile personal insults, like it does whenever you-know-who gets involved (henceforth, referred to as YNW). I like Joey and as long as things remain civil I have no issues with him.
Also, you should know that he and I share a remarkably similar background, both having an education in Journalism-English-History, besides being loyal Mets fans. Perhaps that’s why we get along.
As for erroneously claiming that Rigney made the decisions in Oakland, do you know that YNW also claimed once that Omar was Josh Byrnes’ boss in Sand Diego? The opposite is true.
After the A’s won an American League pennant in 1988, then-A’s executive Sandy Alderson said, “When you talk about people who have contributed to our success, you have to single out Bill Rigney. His contributions have been enormous. He has been involved in EVERY one of our player acquisitions since I came here in 1982. I’ve watched 600 or 700 games with Bill, and it’s been an education.”
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/It-Musta-Been-Rigged-Bill-Rigney-dead-at-83-2949823.php#ixzz2OJetZbtF
In 1981, the same year that Schuerholz was named the Royals’ general manager, Sandy Alderson left a law practice to become team counsel of the Oakland A’s. Alderson was a Dartmouth graduate with a Harvard Law degree who’d served in the Marines for four years, including a tour in Vietnam. “I went to the A’s with the notion that I could always come back,” says Alderson, who is now a CEO with the San Diego Padres.
Two years later, he was the A’s general manager, working for a friend, owner and fellow attorney Roy Eisenhart, with baseball veterans Bill Rigney and Karl Kuehl at his side. “I really wasn’t doing any player evaluation at the time, nor did I have any handle on how to do it,” says Alderson. He kept his mouth shut, dressed down so as not to look like a lawyer, and fantasized that he might be the first of a new breed.
1990
Baseball’s old boys scoffed in 1983 when Haas put him in charge of personnel. What, they wondered, did this former Marine officer know about scouting teenage prospects? And what could he have learned at Dartmouth University and Harvard Law School that would in any way help him swing a trade?
But Alderson was smart enough to know his limitations. He surrounded
himself with a coterie of well-paid talent evaluators – including La Russa, Bill Rigney and Ron Schueler – and he valued their opinions. The brain trust prompted the A’s to draft young stars Jose Canseco, Mark McGwire, Walt Weiss and Terry Steinbach. It also helped Alderson arrange trades for Rickey Henderson, Bob Welch, Dennis Eckersley and, this season alone, Willie Randolph, Harold Baines and Willie McGee.
“One of the things that separates the A’s from some traditional organizations is that their people are given authority, and they are listened to,” said California Angels general manager Mike Port. “It is not an organization of yes men.”
It is also not an organization afraid to take risks. The A’s have taken other teams’ problem players – Dave Stewart and Dave Parker, for instance – and made them part of a positive group dynamic.
And just last spring, when the nation’s No. 1 pitching prospect, Texas righthander Todd Van Poppel, announced plans to go to college before starting his professional baseball career, the first 13 teams in the draft passed on him and his 97-m.p.h. fastball.
The A’s, picking 14th, were in a gambling mood. Alderson chose Van Poppel, and – despite Van Poppel’s initial protests that the A’s had wasted their pick – eventually signed him. The top team in baseball had successfully landed the top prospect.
“It wasn’t just the money,” Van Poppel said. “I don’t think I would have signed with any other organization. But they were very classy. They were the kind of people I always wanted to work for.”
Perhaps it wasn’t the money. But Van Poppel’s contract – three years for $1.2 million, plus a $600,000 signing bonus – is the highest ever for a high school draft pick. It is another example of the Athletics not being afraid to spend money for top-shelf talent.
The A’s $20 million player payroll is the second-highest in baseball this season. The only team spending more, the Kansas City Royals, finished below .500, demonstrating that big spending works only if you do it judiciously.
Other teams gripe about the costs of free agency and salary arbitration, but the A’s use those systems to their advantage. Oakland’s philosophy is to spend big to get and keep the stars who win games and attract fans. That means letting lesser players walk when they become free agents.
Juan Marichel
http://books.google.com/books?id=7pHtxbfONEgC&pg=PA204&lpg=PA204&dq=Bill+Rigney+Oakland+Sandy+Alderson&source=bl&ots=DzQYRDPulR&sig=_sT_clleGMPWSoI8iZbENgscPKQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cvFMUYSDAYzM9ASV44C4Aw&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBDgU#v=onepage&q=Bill%20Rigney%20Oakland%20Sandy%20Alderson&f=false
It turns out Rigney is the one who got Marichel the job there…which opened the door to their IFA scouting in DR..
1992
RIGNEY’S REASONING
Certainly, said Bill Rigney, the A’s senior adviser, finances played a part in it, releasing some of the Canseco money for what he called the priority attempt to sign McGwire and possibly some of the A’s other free agents, including Sierra, who makes more than Canseco–$5 million to $3.6 million–and who will seek an even larger long-term deal than Canseco’s five-year, $23.5-million contract.
Thus, Rigney said, the saving on Canseco will only stretch so far, so the primary consideration was adding Witt, with all of his blazing potential and frustrating control problems–he seemed to be regressing during a 0-5 August–to a suspect rotation and Russell to the bullpen.
“We’re at a pivotal point age-wise,” Rigney said. “We don’t know how many chances we’ll have to win in the near future and we felt this was our best chance to win again this year. I mean, we simply felt we didn’t have enough pitching.
“With (Bob) Welch hurt and there being a question if he’ll pitch again this year, our rotation came down to (Dave) Stewart, (Ron) Darling and (Mike) Moore. We’re at a point in the season where we need outs, and now we have a Witt to help get us to the sixth inning and a Russell to help get us to (Dennis Eckersley).”
so much for Rigney just being a TV guy
Hi Major Mangu,
You don’t know how many happy, smiling faces with what you uncovered. It’s not a put down of Sandy Alderson as it is a recognition of what the man’s role really was and where his expertise was.
Bill Rigney I am sure is even smiling down on us right now.
Now, many have asked (as you know) why is what happened in Oakland a quarter of a century ago important or even relevant to what’s going on with the Mets today. The answer is simple – if one believes Sandy has the expertise to find direction and answers to improving the Mets then one must look into his background to see if he really is the individual they think he is. It also serves a dual purpose – Sandy, being heralded as the grandfather of sabermetrics, also needs to be seen as the one responsible for being the architect of those great Oakland teams based on his embracing of non-traditional ideas. Take away the creditability of Sandy’s role in Oakland and then one takes away a major argument of credibility of sabermetrics. It opens up a tremendous amount of questioning regarding how much is true and how much is myth.
Sandy is a business person, respected by his peers and deserves recognition for his expertise in the field of law and corporate business. He does have his own ideas of how a team should be built and run. But it is apparent he did not have the authority to instill that in Oakland – at least during his first decade there. If he did take more personal involvement in baseball matters toward the end, he also can’t be faulted for the hard times in the mid nineties when the club had already reached it’s peak and was aging.
But then, he does have the authority to put his mark on the Mets as far as the direction he wants them to take. Without the myth of being the architect at Oakland, judgement on his moves are then seen in a totally different light. And even more so when taking into account the perfect storm of financial catastrophes that necessitated one with the executive experience he had to come in at keep the franchise fiscally afloat.
Know this is only repeating myself but the additional information you provided is only further evidence about Sandy’s role being corporate and breaks the grand illusion of what his contributions were to the game as it is played.
His moves are of financial priority on behalf of the owners and his own belief that he can develop a good team starting over based on what he perceives is a baseball know-how and has surrounded himself with people who are in agreement with him to implement it.
Thanks again for those additional pieces of information to further validate this point. It is not an insult by any of us to say he is a financial person who has been given the opportunity to run the organization as he see fit. That he decided to take it upon himself to influence matters pertaining to the game itself is only revealing his shortcomings in that aspect. But that has been his choice.
Joey — where is the link for Larussa and Francona? I read the Hudgens article but will wait till you give the other link before commenting further on this.
OK Fonzie,
My work is cut out for me and I’m going to have to do a lot of emails.
First, I’m going to get in touch with CRG to have them contact you c/o MMO so you can tell them what they really do is not what they wrote about on their webpage under consulting and that they do not do the hard work to improve performance and pf their clients looking to them to implement the ideas they present:
“As the world’s largest management consulting firm, we help organizations build value by uncovering insights that create new futures and doing the hard work to improve performance.
“Delivering this kind of value requires a broad range of talent and capabilities – across human capital, strategy & operations and technology – and importantly, aligned to the unique needs of specific sectors, businesses and organizations.
“Our clients look to us for the ability to implement the ideas we present. They expect excellent performance that draws upon our breadth of industry and service experience. Simply put, we provide our clients with world-class insights that generate tangible and measurable impact.”
Not just CRG, but all those scholarly experts on statistical analysis regarding misconceptions of cause and effect – I’ll have them contact you as well so you can straighten them out.
Same too about being able to judge and play the direction of the ball is something that cannot be taught and improved on in both understanding and mechanics (i.e., weight distribution on their feet, leaning in certain ways, etc.) I’ll also have those guys contact you.
Oh, and of course, those who disagree strongly with the front office interpretation of data – Ojeda, LaRussa, Francona for example, I must tell them to contact you too since they obviously don’t appreciate what those on top have discovered and you can explain to better to them.
Also, I’m going to have to ask Sandy Alderson to get in touch with you regarding the proper use of speech – when one says he had no background or knowledge of the game one needs to know that he is expressing what he knows about himself incorrectly. He should not put down his experience of playing second base in college and he should build up more confidence in his own self from those days to be able know a thing or two about mechanics. P
Guess that also means having Roy Eisenhardt contact you too so he can correct himself regarding the attributes he found in Sandy that made him want to hire a non-baseball person. I mean, he doesn’t realize what the following sounds like:
“The question I’m always asked is, ‘Why didn’t you hire a baseball guy to do that rather than a lawyer?’” says Roy Eisenhardt, the former A’s president who brought Alderson to Oakland in 1980.
Eisenhardt was a partner at the San Francisco law firm Farella, Braun & Martel when Alderson came to clerk there one summer in the mid-’70s. After Eisenhardt’s father-in-law, Walter Haas, bought the A’s in 1980, Eisenhardt had a new post and hired Alderson to be the team’s general counsel in ’81. Two years later Alderson was promoted to GM, although Eisenhardt says the job title was VP of baseball operations.
“I didn’t think of Sandy as a lawyer. I thought of Sandy as a really smart guy who knows how to analyze decisions and make decisions and who had had the experience of being in the Marine Corps and (serving) in Vietnam, which is a real character-building experience. Those were the skills I was looking for because I wasn’t looking for just somebody making baseball judgments.”
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/ex-marine-harvard-law-school-grad-sandy-alderson-brings-toughness-mets-trenches-article-1.192497#ixzz2OC8EAXCx
Yes, these people all need to know they don’t understand things within their own professions. and are thus misguiding the rest of us.
You need to contact these people yourself so you can stop with your conspiracy theories.
CRG did not make the decisions. Consultants do not make decisions. I don’t need all that mumbo jumbo because I was employed as a consultant so you can’t tell me consultants make DECISIONS. Consultants advise. Why is this so hard for you to understand.
I do not need to contact any of those people. I know what the facts are by researching the facts as opposed to speculating what the facts might be by drawing all sorts of conclusion based on the fact that you don’t see the plausibilty of a very intelligent well educated man being able to quickly adapt to his surroundings to make the decisions based on an organizational philosophy. Sandy may have come into baseball as a non baseball guy but he quickly adapted and became a baseball guy and he has a world series ring to prove it.
Sandy admitted to having no backround in scouting and player developement which is why he hired Eric Walker and relied upon statistical analysis to measure player performance. He did not say he has no knowledge of professional baseball. He has no backround in professional baseball. He did play college ball. It’s not like he went to England to run a Rugby team
A GM does not need to know about a players mechanics to put a team together. That is why they employ scouts. There are thousands of scouts that never played the game not only professionally but not even at an amateur level. One does not need to know mechanics to evaluate performance. GM’s do not scout amateur talent and do not need to know how. Isn’t it strange that you are the only person that doesn’t think he put those teams together. The rest of the baseball world knows he did it.
Your problem is you don’t understand what the job specifications of a GM entails so you draw your own conclusions based on nothing but conjecture. Most of the readers here are diehard fans who have recognize the evolution of baseball and how the GM position in not only baseball but all sports have changed. It’s your failure to understand this that causes you to speculate and draw the wrong conclusions.
You have done nothing to make your case because you don’t deal with facts. If you did proper research you would educate yourself and make better arguments rather than just speculate. All you have proven is you are not up to date with the evolution of baseball outside the white lines. Once you do that you will have more constructive debates.
And I’ll say it again. You can not teach someone how to JUDGE a flyball. There are many MLB players that still can’t judge a flyball.
The rest of your mumbo jumbo has been addressed ad nauseum.
Hi Guys,
I’ll leave it all up to you to be judge and jury….., but before you do.
Please look at webpage eight of the attached from 1982 which discusses Bill Rigney’s decision to obtain Carney Lansford.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1842&dat=19821207&id=SmkeAAAAIBAJ&sjid=7MgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4431,2102796
Then, there is John d’Aquisto’s account of who let him go from Oakland and why back in 1982 as well:
“I went to spring training with the A’s and was released early-on. Bill Rigney was an A’s consultant. He didn’t like me.
http://herald-review.com/lifestyles/d-acquisto-recalls-glory-days-with-decatur-commodores/article_b63ec2c8-6a0b-11e0-8e62-001cc4c002e0.html
Also look at page 139 of the attached in which a writer wants the Angeles to get Bill Rigney back in early, 2004:
“With Rigney, the Oakland A’s made trades that virtually stole the headlines at the winer meetings. Giver him some more time – the A’s might steal a pennant or two”.
Yes, that is a third person opinion but the acknowledgement is given to Rigney, even if his own evaluation of Rigney’s moves proved wrong. That is why the research of archival material is so necessary – to explore not from a 2013 perspective but that of thirty years ago.
http://books.google.com/books?id=nBYEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA139&lpg=PA139&dq=Oakland+A's+trades+made+by+bill+rigney&source=bl&ots=omjMbOwShE&sig=GKR3yvEMorSSDy7BXlP3OsEaIiY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-ZVLUYC6I9en4AOPrIHgDg&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Oakland%20A's%20trades%20made%20by%20bill%20rigney&f=false
Yes, all three were before Sandy became GM but shows Rigney had been in charge of team personnel prior to that and does raise the question – not a conspiracy theory – but a valid question to be asked: why would one making successful player movements for two years and with such background and knowledge suddenly have that responsibility taken away from him and be given to one who had been a successful lawyer but admitted having no professional knowledge of the game? Why would he be then, for lack of better words, be “demoted” to that of one who advised Sandy?
We also must remember that being the public spokesman for an organization and having the authority to approve player moves does not mean that Sandy had to be the one to develop and ponder the decisions.
Is it simply because the role of the GM had started to change and as that one article pointed out, many became involved in the daily business of running the team and left the day to day operations of the baseball team to others?
That is not at all degrading Sandy Alderson’s reputation, it is simply pointing out that his accomplishments with Oakland were of a CEO and not a general manager in the older way that position was defined as.
So just consider those thoughts.
Could Sandy have slowly learned over the years from Rigney in which he referred to being with him as an “eduction”? Perhaps, but as Bill James pointed out, there are too many intangibles in the game that one cannot understand through stats. And judging by the manner in which Sandy today approaches the competitive game, still expressing his opinions in the nature of stats and the very general nature in which he discusses the competitive aspect of the sport – in lieu of his detailed and thorough knowledge of the game as a business – with admitting he is only an observer because he is not a player – I don’t believe so.
I do believe he has taken it upon himself to become more involved in player moves than other general managers with his background and understanding because he sincerely believes he possess the professional skill to do so. But, because of my observations of how he talks about the art of the game as compared to others who have been between the foul lines, along with the writings of PhD’s on the growing number of false conclusions based on statistical analysis – in which baseball should not be viewed as an exception – I don’t think that has been of benefit with the Mets in the directions he has taken.
Again, it has already been established what Bill Rigney did prior to Sandy becoming the General Manager. It is difficult to believe from that point on a lawyer with no professional background was given the role of doing what he had been doing and that his role in that area was just to offerer advice.
That is not a conspiracy theory – that is just vetting more and asking questions that have to be asked.
Hi Joey –
Yes, all three were before Sandy became GM but shows Rigney had been in charge of team personnel prior to that
No. They don’t. All it shows is that Rigney was a respected and valuable baseball man whose opinions were used to inform decisions. Nowhere does it say that he was “in charge of team personnel” In fact one of the quotes you gave clearly says he was just a “an A’s consultant” and nowhere in the Lansford article does it say that Rigney was the one in charge of that decision.
Is it simply because the role of the GM had started to change and as that one article pointed out, many became involved in the daily business of running the team and left the day to day operations of the baseball team to others?
Huh? Which GM did that? Be specific and if you have a link, please provide it.
Could Sandy have slowly learned over the years from Rigney in which he referred to being with him as an “eduction”? Perhaps, but as Bill James pointed out, there are too many intangibles in the game that one cannot understand through stats.
Total non-sequitur.
I do believe he has taken it upon himself to become more involved in player moves than other general managers with his background and understanding because he sincerely believes he possess the professional skill to do so.
What proof do you have that this is the case? That he is “more involved” in player moves than other general managers today? And who are these other general managers who are NOT involved in player moves? That is news to me.
<the growing number of false conclusions based on statistical analysis – in which baseball should not be viewed as an exception
What false conclusions?
Again, it has already been established what Bill Rigney did prior to Sandy becoming the General Manager.
Yes, it has been established he was a valued consultant/advisor/assistant, but was not a final decision maker.
It is difficult to believe from that point on a lawyer with no professional background was given the role of doing what he had been doing and that his role in that area was just to offerer advice.
It is difficult only for you and others who don’t like Sandy. It is not difficult for me to believe this happened.
That is not a conspiracy theory – that is just vetting more and asking questions that have to be asked.
You are asking questions that can’t be answered definitively because of the limited nature of the information that is out there. So you make your OWN conclusions about what happened. To me, your conclusions seem to be a stretch in the wrong direction.
But bottom line, I have to ask again, is why are you focusing so much on what happened in Oakland? No matter what his background was when he took the job back then, to think that a man as bright as Sandy wouldn’t have learned much more about the game from being GM those many years doesn’t make a lot of sense.
And, again, what makes Sandy so different from Daniels, Cashman, Friedman, and Theo? In fact, he has more baseball experience than these men because of his Oakland days.
HI Metro,
Thanks for the kind words.
As to my conention about Bill Rigney, as I said, I was not the one implying he was a consultant so the only reason I went into CRG (for example) was because that was what was inferred Rigney did.
But with all the background that I recently provided that I admit is too humongous to read, scientific evidence is now showing that there correlation is now being tremendously mis-interpreted as to causes. Now, Sandy has admitted he knew nothing of the game professionally and even joked about how he could have always gone back into law. And not knowing anything but studying James and other methodologists he began to understand the game and used that as the root of his decision making. I am sorry but I cannot believe that one who was hired by the owner because of his discipline and leadership skills – whom he called not a baseball person – would leave such decisions to Sandy instead of to his executive assistant, Bill Rigney – whom Sandy did say was involved in every player move made by Oakland.
It just doesn’t make sense, especially when other owners have been noted to employ those like Sandy – from the corporate world with no background in having played or coached the game on a higher level – also had it where the GM was less involved in baseball matters and had left it to others to focus on instead. (I will try to find that article too – whew, what a task order!).
So can you at least see where I am coming from on this point? Stastical analysis has it’s inherant flaws (we’ve seen that), Sandy said he was from the outside and did not know the game, Bill Rigney had already made trades before Sandy became GM (the period between Billy Martin – have to find those links again too). Stastical analysis has still not convinced Bill James that it can be of any help evaluating raw talent on the high school or college level, so how could Sandy be the one who determined those early draft picks – notice the direct credit he gets in so many articles about drafting Canseco, McGwire, etc?
We know there is a certain bandwagon many journalists jump onto (and we are all guilty of this ourselves as well) and one is crediting Sandy as the architect of those teams, rather than the CEO of them or at least working in that capacity.
There is a rationality to this and a valid one, even though we are in sharp disagreement on the issue – and I think that is because we both come from different perspectives.
Ciao
Joey –
I am sorry but I cannot believe that one who was hired by the owner because of his discipline and leadership skills – whom he called not a baseball person – would leave such decisions to Sandy instead of to his executive assistant, Bill Rigney – whom Sandy did say was involved in every player move made by Oakland.
Believe what you want, Joey. We can agree to disagree if you want. But there is zero evidence that Sandy didn’t make ALL the final decisions in Oakland as that was his job. As I said, Sandy Johnson was likely involved in every player move made by Omar, but that doesn’t mean Omar didn’t make the final decisions. Same thing as in Oakland.
It just doesn’t make sense, especially when other owners have been noted to employ those like Sandy – from the corporate world with no background in having played or coached the game on a higher level – also had it where the GM was less involved in baseball matters and had left it to others to focus on instead.
Well it doesn’t make sense to me that any owner would hire a GM and NOT give him/her the power to make all final decisions unless that GM were an interim GM (like Duquette was for the Mets). So, yes, please find me examples and proof where an owner hired such a person and didn’t give him the final say.
So can you at least see where I am coming from on this point?
No. Not really.
I mean I understand why you feel this way. It’s coming out of your own passion for the Mets and dislike for Sandy. But I think you connected all the dots incorrectly!
…so how could Sandy be the one who determined those early draft picks – notice the direct credit he gets in so many articles about drafting Canseco, McGwire, etc?
Tell me joey, who do you think plays a big factor in the bulk of draft picks in baseball today? It’s scouts and heads of scouting. And that goes for whether you are talking about Sabean, Cashman, Freidman, Amaro, Daniels or Sandy. I remember a comment from Sabean after Sandy traded for Wheeler (and, frankly, took him to the cleaners!). Sabean said that he didn’t worry too much about losing such an elite pitcher because he has a lot of faith in his scouting department to identify top pitching. So they would replace Wheeler with others in the future. So, Sabean relies heavily on scouts to make his final decisions.
It seems like in so many areas, you are expecting Sandy to have these skills and powers that most GMs in baseball today don’t possess. Like Daniels, Friedman, Cashman, and Theo. And in all your replies, you neglect to comment on this. Even though I have repeatedly brought it up. You have this double standard for Sandy. He has to be so much better than anyone else. A super hybrid baseball-business GM person!
We know there is a certain bandwagon many journalists jump onto (and we are all guilty of this ourselves as well) and one is crediting Sandy as the architect of those teams, rather than the CEO of them or at least working in that capacity.
Any GM – unless an interim GM – should ALWAYS get the full credit for all moves made while he was GM. I am consistent with this and don’t play games on this issue like many others on this site do, who want to cherry pick the situations – ie, those who want to give Omar credit for Reyes even though Phillips was the GM at the time. In addition, every front office has a myriad array of formal and informal assistants who they rely on for advice. But it would always be impossible to weed out which assistant gave advice for which player move. So to be consistent and simplify things, one should always credit the GM with that move, even if an assistant was instrumental in making that move too. Because after all, it is the GM who is usually in charge of hiring that assistant or soliciting that assistant for advice. It would be impossible to adequately sort out who was responsible for what move if you tried to do otherwise. Waste of time and pointless.
Hi fellow social scientist (aka Metro) LOL.
This is going to be more philosophical than pragmatic, so if you’re too tired or not interested -then skip it altogether – I won’t be offended! LOL.
Actually, I understand your last point about the GM getting the credit for moves made during his reign despite who was actually responsible and see where you are coming from on this. However, the debate is over Sandy’s role and that role might be unfairly placed upon him by those who are crediting him for having revolutionized the game and bringing a well thought out vision to the Mets. Take away that issue and suddenly it’s not Sandy but the Met organization of which he is the general manager.
And thus my vetting into how much Sandy does understand the game professionally because of two things – the accolades he receives personally for what was done in Oakland and the insistence that he himself is setting the direction for the organization to follow, not the other way around/ If he is defending his people more than making a judgement himself then that is what comes from making the general manager responsible for things that he might not even have the responsibility of handling – as you are doing.
I am aware that I come from a pre-conceived notion and I’m sure like you has to try and separate one’s emotion away from his or her vetting in order to make a valid point. One indeed has to be careful about mistaking that personal bias to create an illusion of fact over zero evidence as you point out and also be careful about what I said regarding correlation not necessarily implying cause. Remember what we learned in political science about there being no absolute truth? Only then can one intellectually and with as little bias as possible connect those dots – and then become emotionally convicted to them.
I truly believe my connecting the dots shows a definite pattern regarding Sandy because I base things solely on statements without adding interpretation at that stage of the investigation along with documented information available (i.e., the financial mess) that is also not up for debate. Regarding the finances, that includes MLB and bridge loans needed to twice (that we know of) avoid default on their financial obligations when they could not longer get credit from financial institutions, Bud Selig’s own statements, etc. Again, I honestly try not to infer opinion as to what they say as to take it on the merits of those words only. Though I’m sure I am guilty of this myself, I do try to question myself that I am indeed abiding by that discipline in order to formulate my conclusions – taking what is said at face value and not adding anything speculative – at that moment – to what has been said or known so to imply a different meaning to what was stated. That is why I pointed out that Sandy said no changes to Citi Field in the forseeable future – to be objective does not allow one to then interject anything hypothetical.
After taking in all the evidence, then speculation is indeed added based on what I can consider as solid circumstantial evidence. Sandy’s background in law, his executive experience, the corporate change of the business of baseball, opinions offered by others based on their own understanding and presentations and it is then that I feel I can add my own personal take on the matter, including my sense of what the thought process is of the individual I am critiquing. If after all this it is simply a case of refusing to acknowledge there is so much valid and circumstantial evidence that I simply try to ignore, then I am indeed guilty of being just stubborn, billigerant and hypocritical.
This does not reflect any moral judgement of the individual and indeed, I have no hatred of him whatsoever. That would be ridiculous and infantile on my part – though I will not deny I have been rubbed the wrong way with the manner in which he has been dishonest and deceptive with the fan base. But there is a difference – being rubbed the wrong way and not having respect for one’s credibility and integrity when it comes to business and not personal matters is not as extreme as actual hatred. I also know that spin is part of the business and under the same set of circumstances I would probably be acting in the same way – and thus there would be a need for others to call me out on it!
But the reason I comment so much on the draft picks is that again, Sandy gets the credit for selecting those players – not approving the strong consensus of recommendations from those assigned to do that work. Again, it’s a matter of crediting the GM in both success and failure that we read so often. Perhaps that is simply being unfair. Or, it’s a matter of not recognizing the difference between having the authority to approve moves and the creativity that led to those moves.
And as I’ve mentioned previously, the debate over Sandy is part of a bigger debate over the question of statistical analysis in baseball allowing one with even no background in the game to better understand and appreciate the sport in terms of professionally being qualified to deal with baseball matters more than those who play, manage and coach. For the fans, it’s another thing and Bill James has done a great service by allowing fans who did not appreciate the finer points of the game to get to know them better (hence, my comments about my understanding of Fenway when just a teenager and not needing empirical studies to explain it it me).
Now, that’s enough philosophy.
BTW – though “YKW” did in fact open my eyes to many things about the business of the sport, as you no doubt know I also disagree with “YKW” on other issues like the direct connection between SNY and the Mets when it comes to Sterling Equities instead of treating them like separate entities, etc.
I do wish you and “YKW” would patch things up and agree to disagree as friendly adversaries like you and I – for I like both you guys. Besides, it might get to the point that both of you becomes numbers ten and eleven on the banned list and that would be a real shame.
Ciao for now.
Hi Joey –
The assumptions I am making about Sandy, his current role, his background and knowledge are logical ones, based on factual knowledge that is out there – ie, his title and role in the Mets organization and his past experiences in Oakland and other places. You and others who hold your view have to step out of the box and stretch much further to come up with a different interpretation favorable to your point of view. That’s how I see it. You of course have the right to do that stretching, but don’t expect others to come along with that long ride from point A to point E — without stopping at points C and D.
You say you “base things solely on statements without adding interpretations” but that is not true. In this thread alone, you have conferred a bigger role for Rigney than he actually had. For example in your last post which mentioned Lansford, nowhere in those links does it say that Rigney was head of personnel and responsible for decision making regarding players. But then you went on to say those things.
Another area I feel people are reading into things something that is not there is this idea that Sandy was appointed to the job not by the Wilpons but by Selig. There is ZER0 evidence for that, with Selig having been emphatic that Sandy was simply his recommended choice to the Wilpons — not some edict. Yet you and others — including Matt Balasis — insist on your own unsubstantiated interpretation that he was appointed by Selig and forced upon the Wilpons.
The worst is to try to confer a specific thought process to Sandy as if you could read minds, saying that he believes he is smarter than he is when it comes to the pure baseball side of things. There is no proof for that and it is an insult to the man, implying that he is arrogant and doesn’t know his own limits.
As for draft picks, again, as I said in a previous comment, the GM should always get the credit regardless. Do you think Omar didn’t get recommendations for practically ALL his picks? You think he picked Ike Davis or Jon Niese all by himself? What about Sabean? As I mentioned, on the heels of the Wheeler deal, he gave great credit to others in the Giants organization with being able to identify pitchers for the team. They all rely on others for draft picks. Why should Sandy be different? So, again, it would be an endless, pointless task trying to divvy up credit in any organization for draft picks and player moves in any way. No one could do it unless you were an insider. Even a beat reporter like Rubin couldn’t do it thoroughly. So just give the current GM credit for everything. Unless of course, like in Cashman’s case, he doesn’t want credit in cases where the ownership meddled – such as A-Rod – and the deal has blown up and reflects badly on the team. But apart from instances such as this, the GM should get full credit as a matter of course.
As for your Fenway comment, I never saw it (it is not in this thread).
Regarding SNY and the Mets, essentially it’s all part of the same big pie and a shell game. As part owners of SNY, the Wilpons can and do shovel some of SNY’s profits back into the Mets when they want to. And fat chance of détente with YKW. He’s too immature to behave and control his own emotions and is always the first to descend into personal insults. Of course, you don’t see it because you are on the same page with him. If you weren’t, I have no doubt he would have insulted you many times over by now. He can’t grow up and has a screw loose. And I am not the only one who feels this way either.
If you haven’t noticed, Joey, people on your side of this debate are significantly more prone to fighting, childish behavior, and personally insulting others. What does it say about the company you keep? You should consider coming over to the side of the “adults”
Hi Metro and fellow philosopher,
“You say you “base things solely on statements without adding interpretations” but that is not true. In this thread alone, you have conferred a bigger role for Rigney than he actually had”
I wrote : After taking in all the evidence, then speculation is indeed added based on what I can consider as solid circumstantial evidence.” After looking at what he did at Oakland before Sandy became GM, Sandy’s statements about him, the owner’s stated reason for hiring Sandy, etc. is how I came to my conclusion. I took everything presented at face value and then interjected my own opinion.
“There is ZER0 evidence for that, with Selig having been emphatic that Sandy was simply his recommended choice to the Wilpons — not some edict. Yet you and others — including Matt Balasis — insist on your own unsubstantiated interpretation that he was appointed by Selig and forced upon the Wilpons. ”
“Edict” is one word but does not mean that without it’s usage one a course of action cannot be established. Sandy has stated he was happy and wanted to stay in his current capacity. He said he had no intrest in the position. He said he was urged to apply for the job. He said he was then still urged by Selig to accept the job after it was offered. Selig admits he interjected himself with the Mets search for a new GM by urging the Wilpons to hire Sandy as well. Somebody takes a job he didn’t want, leaves one that he loved and is hired by employer’s who know he applied for the job that he wasn’t interested in to begin with not on his own but at the urging of someone else – too much overwhelming evidence not to read between the lines. And the speculation is only further fueled by the steps that Selig had already been doing to help his friends that he had not done for others in the same financial situation – he even stated that he did things differently because the Wilpons were “victims” and did not bring these circumstances upon themselves.
“As for draft picks, again, as I said in a previous comment, the GM should always get the credit regardless.”
Then, again I say those who credit Sandy should make it clear they are not crediting him as an individual but him as the head of the organization with no judgement on whom did what. That is a major distinction and probably what has led to more dispute than others. Yes, with him as the GM, Oakland became a dominent club in the American League but the way it is worded by so many in the media and fans, it does imply that he had a major hand in the vetting and evaluation of those moves – not just the final approval of them based upon the recommendations from those under him doing the strategic vetting.
Also, as you know, I am in 100 percent agreement with you about how SNY (and for that matter, any RSN owned by the same ones who own the club) and the Mets have to be looked at in terms of a singular unit. The reason why Fred refused to give up one penny of his own shares from SNY in the Mets deal is because that is where the big money comes in. And that is why if he was forced to sell the Mets, it would have to include a portion of SNY – no investor is going to purchase the Mets (or any club) if it’s RSN is not part of the deal.
Actually, correct me on that. Bill Maher and others purchased a minority share because it included being able to have access of Mr. Met and a luxury suite which, for some, might even be a bigger enticement!
Won’t deny that when I first began to participate in MMO, I was shocked at the insults coming from both sides of the fence. So, like SNY and the Mets, I am not going to separate them into two camps. As far as YKW, I still think you are both good guys and just very passionate about the Mets – as I am. I’ve always suggested to everyone on both sides of the fence to bury the hatchet and start over from scratch.
…. and then, there might be some sort of enjoyment going on between people who have the skin to take the insults and are simply trying to top the other one in how far they can go.
Still think you and I should be a shining example to everyone else. We’re the Matilen and Carvell of Met’s land (gender not included).
Hi Joey —
Initially, when contacted by Selig’s office, Sandy said he had no interest. But it Is incorrect to say that Sandy had no interest in the job once he considered it and interviewed for it:
“Getting back to being a GM is something that I really wanted to do — but under the right circumstances,” Alderson said. “It’s the environment, it’s the city, it’s the resources, it’s the potential that this franchise has. All of the things that would attract someone are here.”
“One of the reasons he took the job is because he knew his dad would absolutely love it,” said Alderson’s son, Bryn. “Of course he loves the challenge and loves getting back in the game and getting back that competitive feeling, but he really loves sharing the game with his family.”
If you want the links, let me know. It’s just patently false to say that Sandy didn’t want the job at the point he accepted it. There is no evidence for that.
Also, again, zero evidence that Selig forced the Mets to hire Alderson. He said he didn’t. The Mets say he didn’t. Only some Mets fans say Selig did, lol.
And the speculation is only further fueled by the steps that Selig had already been doing to help his friends that he had not done for others in the same financial situation – he even stated that he did things differently because the Wilpons were “victims”
Well the others were NOT in the same financial situation. McCourt was corrupt. And Hicks neglected his franchise. Moreover, both Hicks and McCourt had to file for bankruptcy. The Wilpons never had to.
Then, again I say those who credit Sandy should make it clear they are not crediting him as an individual but him as the head of the organization with no judgment on whom did what.
Should I say that about Omar then every time I mention Ike or Niese? Because I am sure Omar relied on others to draft those 2 as well as most of the prospects drafted under his regime.
it does imply that he had a major hand in the vetting and evaluation of those moves – not just the final approval of them based upon the recommendations from those under him doing the strategic vetting.
And we don’t know that Sandy didn’t play a major hand in the vetting and evaluation of most of those moves. It’s something people on the outside of every MLB team never know. So, again, should we preface every statement about the drafts of Cashman, Daniels, and Omar with such caveats?
As for the minority shares, yes they were sold without any access to SNY.
As for peace at MMO, forget it. You will find true peace in the Middle East before the 2 camps at MMO can get along for more than a few minutes.
You and I are just an exception to the rule. It’s just one of those things. Carville and Matalin? Holy cow! Their pairing is truly the 8th wonder of the world! They make me laugh.
Hi Metro,
Obviously not at the time he accepted it – the time he spent contemplating whether to accept the offer – let it be when formally proposed to him or in anticipation of him being chosen for the job. I’ll look for the links that shows it another day – right now I’m “linked out”.
As far as Citi Field, forgot that you found the link, however, what I remembered from when Just had posted it was your reply thinking the words were transcribed wrong:
“Sorry Joey, but I think someone got that wrong. Maybe someone transcribed the answer incorrectly. That doesn’t jive with all that Sandy said about Citi and the dimensions since he became GM. I just don’t believe it.”.
Then it was followed up by:
“He always said he wasn’t going to do anything right away. That he wanted to assess things first. But he always acknowledged from the get go that changes were not out of the question and that the dimensions of Citi could be problematic to offense.”
Again, after first believing it was transcribed wrong, then it is not basing those statements at face value. While I agree that Sandy HAD TO BE THINKING in those terms, he was not publicly stating he was going to access the situation.
Now, if he did mention it a month or so later, there is nothing on the web that I have found so far that even mentions such thinking via an un-named source or anyone associated with the Mets until August. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t say it and you are wrong – it could also be that he did indeed say it at the time your remember and there is just no record of it – just like with me and the learn how to hit home runs remark I know I heard him say as well but can’t find verification on the web. I’m still looking for it, however, the comment – if accurate as I claim it is – does fall in line with public reasons as why not to change the dimensions as Sandy (so far as documented evidence to date shows) was saying he wasn’t doing.
One possibility with what we both remembering hearing is that after saying them, Sandy felt it better not to do so again and stopped raising either point.
“There is ZER0 evidence for that, with Selig having been emphatic that Sandy was simply his recommended choice to the Wilpons — not some edict. Yet you and others — including Matt Balasis — insist on your own unsubstantiated interpretation that he was appointed by Selig and forced upon the Wilpons. ”
lol … anyone who witnessed how Selig handled the McCourt situation would know better than to go against a Selig “recommendation” …
Hi Metro,
Found a link about Sandy saying no changes to Citi Field back in 2010. It’s the exact words Just quoted and come from the press
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/505128-sandy-alderson-arrives-as-new-york-mets-general-manager-quotes-from-the-new-gm#/articles/505128-sandy-alderson-arrives-as-new-york-mets-general-manager-quotes-from-the-new-gm/page/13 conference introducing him to the media:
Joey, that link was already posted in this thread and discussed by you, me and others