16
2013
Which Mets Could Be On Trading Block This Season?
An article by 
The Mets should save themselves the aggravation and DL Frank Francisco when the season starts and have the roster spot filled by somebody else.
That would enable Bobby Parnell to have the closer job unencumbered. Having him train for the role in Spring Training only to have it pulled from him at the last minute would be bad for clubhouse karma.
And, if Parnell doesn’t cut it, then there’s time to work in Brandon Lyon and have Terry Collins configure his bullpen.
Reportedly, Francisco will be shut down for two weeks. What comes next is a period of long toss, followed by throwing on flat ground, then off the mound. Then there’s batting practice and perhaps a split-squad or minor league game before getting into a spring training game. That could be another two weeks, leaving Francisco just two weeks of games to get sharp, which is only asking for trouble.
There’s always the chance of a setback, so it makes sense to avoid rushing him and bring him along cautiously so he could be healthy to trade at the
July 31 deadline. If the Mets have a bad first half, teams will inquire about Francisco. They won’t call if his elbow is ailing.
As they rebuild, the Mets must keep thinking of pieces they can deal to stockpile prospects and draft choices.
Several other Mets fit that description:
Shaun Marcum: If Zack Wheeler is ready and nobody injured that makes Marcum expendable because he doesn’t fit into their long-term plans.
John Buck: If Travis d’Arnaud is playing on the major league roster, then Buck could be attractive to a contender with a catching void.
Johan Santana: This is a long shot, but something the club would love to do, even if means picking up much of his remaining contract. If Santana is healthy and pitching well, somebody will be interested and the Mets will listen.
Daniel Murphy: If prospect Wilmer Flores has an impressive spring, he will fit into the Mets’ long-term plans which could make Murphy available to an AL team as a designated hitter.
Jenrry Mejia: Sooner or later he needs to prove he can pitch. The Mets have to be thinking it might not be with them. If that’s their eventual conclusion it is better to make a trade too early rather than too late.
Most anybody in their outfield and bullpen: They don’t want to dangle Parnell and Lucas Duda, but if they could get something, what’s the harm?
There’s no telling how the season will play out, but expectations are low so looking to divest players not in their 2014 plans must be considered.
About the Author: John Delcos
I am an active member of the BBWAA and have covered Major League Baseball in several capacities for over 20 years, including ten in New York working the Mets' and Yankees' beat. I covered the Baltimore Orioles for eight years and the Cleveland Indians before that. I currently serve as an editor and senior staff writer for Mets Merized Online. Follow me on Twitter @jdelcos.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 26 | 18 | .591 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 22 | .511 | 3.5 |
| Phillies | 21 | 24 | .467 | 5.5 |
| Mets | 17 | 25 | .405 | 8.0 |
| Marlins | 13 | 32 | .289 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/21/2013
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I love Murphy but IF Flores can play 2B at least as well as Murphy then his time may be short.
Agreed. Plus, Murph is starting to have an elevated salary and with the 3B market basically being bereft of players, trading him to play 3B elsewhere would certainly have value.
Murph is adequate at 2b by now. Any contender would do well with him in a super-sub role. 1b-2b-3b-DH and PH vs. RH
I am really rooting for Flores…..Nothing against my dude the Irish Hammer but if we can get some power out of the 2B position it would be worth it in my eyes.
There’s something about mejia that makes me think he’d be a perfect fit for a bullpen role… and he can be successful at it..
Evidently there maybe something about the bullpen that Mejia doesn’t like. He struggled mighty there and of course if I remember correctly said he viewed himself as a starter. All fine and good but yeah if the Mets say he’s a reliever he will have to learn to be a reliever. I thought it was pretty telling though that he is coming in to camp as a starter without really mentioning the pen as an option which is the opposite of Familia.
Considering he’s been terrible every time he’s tried, I’m not sure how you can support that.
I still think he is a prime candidate to be trade for an OF down the line…
Mejia does not have major league stuff. He needs to be packaged in a deal or retire.
If Flores continues to develop with the bat the way he has been, and can play an OK 2B, he could easily be the LT solution making Murphy expendable. I hopw it happens, as it would be a nice boost for the team going forward (the foundation to build on). And they could use some more RH bats that can rake!
a quibble though. Yes, those guys all potentially could bring back prospects (but even better, young ML guys just starting out, say an OF?) but none can bring back draft picks trading at the deadline. Not sure what that comment meant in this context, or was it just a general philosophy?
Oh, and Duda has to be in play. Oly way I see it is if he is hitting good, but the D is just not there in the OF (enough to keep him). In that case, he could be really interesting to a team needing a DH or 1B.
Going to be interesting come this mid season.
I don’t think Murph was ever the long term solution at 2nd so if someone like Flores proves he can handle the defense, or dark horse Havens finally is healthy and takes that step up – Murph would indeed be a trade candidate.
I understand your point on Mejia and trading too soon vs. too late but I’m hoping we get a good long look this season to see what he can bring to the table. I was looking forward to seeing him pitch in ST but now wonder if he’ll be in the country much before opening day.
Agree with the rest of your list of trade candidates.
No team likes trading popular players, but it’s a part of the game. I’m actually surprised Murphy is still here and wasn’t swapped with a low level RHP prospect for a legit outfielder. Could still happen in June or July.
Last ST I got Murphy’s autograph and spoke with him about Wally Backman who also signed my ball before Murphy did. Murphy to quote him when I asked about Wally sais “Wally is someone special.” If the Mets get off to bad start Wally is here by the trade deadline. Wally is here next year regardless. In that context Murphy is here too because Murphy is a Wally type guy.
I’m surprised that Murphy or any player would make a claim like that which essentially throws his current manager under the bus. Or at the very least Murphy is saying he doesn’t view Collins as a good enough manager to stay on in the position.
Here is the whole the story and you going to laugh.
I give Wally my Sharpie and he signs his autograph.
When Murphy comes I say Daniel “28′ is my lucky number.
Murphy says to me “Today is NOT your lucky day as the pen doesn’t work.
I say Wally was able to use it.
Murphy says “Wally is special he can do anything”
Murphy quickly gets me out of my predicament and asks the person waiting beyond me if he can use the pen and says to him you will get it back.
I start to a motion to walk away after he signed my ball and Murphy calls me “here is your pen”
I say no its the other guys and he says no its yours.
Now you know the full story,
Don’t forget Backman was a gutsy guy like Murphy both 2B. Backman greatly improved his 2B play like Murphy has. Backman had to beat out Tim Tufel for the job.
I think we all know Terry’s time here is limited. But I really hope he survives until the end of the year. Most smart Met fans understand that this isn’t our year, and Backman has been groomed for the managerial job for a few years now. Let’s give him every chance to succeed.
Bringing him in on a team that isn’t going to be competing is dangerous. As this story suggests, the Mets will likely be trading veteran pieces, not to mention Wheeler and Harvey will probably both be put on innings limits meaning both will likely be shut down towards the end of the year. I like Backman’s style, but I think you add him during the off season if at all possible.
Hey Hotstreak, are you doing spring training this year?
I am not is the PSL area but now live for ten years by the Astros complex in Kissimmee, FL. I go to the Met games there where there are just rookies who make the trip. I saw Wright in his rookie year there and Reyes too. Also Ike, Murphy, Backman, Collins, Art Howe. One year I saw Willie leaving the parking lot in a car as a passenger as I was walking to my car. I waived to him and he waived back. I also saw FMart, Duda and one year there they actually televised with Gary Cohen and Ron Darling. I saw more there like Brian Bannister, Lasting Miledge, Nelson Figueroa Ollie Perez, Thole. But many a times its just players on the B squard games. I remember one year Josh Satin looked great, Hey its only ST. The catcher Ramon Castro never took the bus trip as he had friends in the Orlando area drive him there, Remeber Hue, the 2B Isaw him there too.
This year I plan to go to the Braves Disney complex to see the Mets there too.
It wouldn’t shock me if the Mets move Ike Davis as early as this season if the right offer comes along. Flores is so big, and I read about his lack of mobility and foot speed, so I don’t see him as a 2B. His future in the majors is at 3B or 1B. I realize his value diminishes at 1B relative to 2B but considering the years of control, the plus hit tool and the advent of David Wright’s contract, Flores to 1B for at least the short term might be the Mets’ best move. Ike could command several top prospects, one of which would hopefully be an excellent OF prospect.
So … even if the team plays terrible baseball in the first half of the year, it could be that all of Wheeler, d’Ardaud, Flores and an excellent OF prospect are joining the Mets this year and we will witness the birth of the next great Mets era!
Just food for thought. Bash away.
the other dark horse is if Duda is raking with the bat, but just not improving enough in LF to stay there. In that case, one of them (Duda or ike) will ahve to go, and it could be the one that gets the biggest return.
but, if they do have a viable 1B replacement in house, if Ike could be flipped for a good OF, it does (at an overall making the team better level) make sense to do it.
They would have to be blown away to move Ike to open up a spot for Flores at 1B. 30 HR guys are not as readily available as they were 10 years ago and Ike can hit 30 plus in a bad year. He’s the only pure power hitter on the team and Sandy digs the long ball too much. Flores will have to make it happen at 2B or LF or he’ll be the one being moved. I don’t think Flores could be worse than Jose Vidro defensively at 2B and he’ll probably hit like Vidro so I’ll take that.
If Flores works out at 2B, and the Mets can’t find a good enough deal for Murphy, he would be an amazing piece off the bench. He can play 2B, 3B, or 1B, is an obvious upgrade over Ginger Turner, would be a perfect pinch hitter since his righty/lefty split is pretty close. Also, you never know how Flores will be when he hits the majors, and while it might be a negative having a proven major leaguer behind you, if the Mets are in position to contend for a wild card spot in a year or two, he would be valuable to have if Flores is struggling.
Obviously, if you get the right deal you take it. Especially if we can get an actual major league outfielder, but I really like Murphy, probably more than most Mets fans, and we could use a veteran presence coming off our bench.
This.
I think Murphy would be too expensive to be a bench player. And probably too valuable as a commodity.
I bet if flores bat is real he could be a 1b, and ike move to the of. Ike has a great arm and is more mobile than flores or murphy.
Trade duda.
Acquire a CF.
We saw an improvement in Daniel’s coverage at second as the season progressed. For all we know, he might fool everybody and turn into an average, dependable glove this season.
Not saying he will, but if he continues with his progress and bounces back with his clutch hitting, he might not become trade bait after all. With our outfield being the way it is, we can’t afford to trade one of the few good bats we have.
That is all speculation. If Daniel does show improvement and Flores gets enough playing time to show that he can handle MLB pitching as well, then Murphy’s trade value actually increases since his glove won’t be hampering him to just a DH.
So like him or not, root for Daniel to improve at the keystone base and get his hits so those who want Flores to move know we might be able to get more for Daniel the middle of the season than we thought possible.
For what it’s worth Murphy was ranked the number 10 best second baseman in baseball by MLB.
We would be better off listing the guys we won’t trade as the list would be much shorter….
As it stands the only ones on the list are Wright, d’Arnaud, Harvey and Wheeler.
And in 2 or 3 years I’m not so sure about Wright.
2 or 3 years, Wright’s contract might be a miniature version of ARod…a guy who is owed a lot of money with declining numbers.
Let me make this article much more simplified…the only person in this entire organization who will not, with 100% certainty, be traded is David Wright and that $120 million dollar contract. Besides him…this entire roster, from single-A to the 40 man roster, is on the block.
Well Matt as we saw last year there with examples from Boston and Florida that there is no contract that can’t be dumped and traded for kids.
So it won’t be the length or price of Wright that keeps him here…It will be perception and for the same reason why I add d’Arnaud, Wheeler and Harvey to that list.
They even MORE than Wright are perceptually untouchable because the FO has put so much on having them that they would be hard pressed to explain letting them go for anything at this point.
Sandy has said all along he wants to build with Pitching…Dickey was able to happen merely because of his age. SO it was explained that way, get a lot for an old player….
He can’t possibly get enough for a Harvey or Wheeler to justify trading them, Look at what people thought was needed to get Upton One of those PLUS more….
Only scenario where one of them gets back into the mix is for a guy like Stanton and even then I doubt Sandy would go there…
I could see him trade Niese, Davis and Duda plus some A Ball guys (even Snydergaard) to get a Stanton but I don’t see anyone else he could go after that would make him trade those two kids….It would invalidate everything he has used as an excuse for what he has done the past two years.
Wright is expendable merely due to the close proximity of Flores. I could easily see Sandy trading him in the next 2 or 3 years.
And if Sandy leaves then everyone goes back on the trading block.
Becausde they won’t have to answer the question why was it so important to have those kids, and trade away stars to get them when you traded them away for guys who are not likely to be as good as the guys you spent to get them.
You are crazy if you think wright will be traded
thats what everyone said back in 77…..
This is the natural progression of a team that develops more players from the minors, and a sign of good health of the organization. If an established player cannot justify the added cost of arb salaries and beyond, relative to the job a less experienced player can do at a lower cost, the player becomes a surplus asset that can be used for trades to improve the team. This process can also be abused by dumping players once they begin costing more money, so the overall barameter should be how the team in total performs, meaning wins. Guys like Tejada, Murphy, Gee, even Ike, will now be evaluated against hire cost vs. what a younger cheaper player can provide.
Wouldn’t it make more sense to retain Murph as an infield utility man instead of getting rid of him if Flores is capable of handling 2nd base?
Hi Hitman,
I think because of his bat, Murph would be better as an everyday player. It’s just too bad he makes Duda look like a gold glover in left and could not be moved to the outfield.
There’s always the “talk” of Wright being trade and if so, Murph might be the one shifted over to third. I doubt that would happen but then I never thought R.A. and Reyes would be wearing different uniforms too, so one really never knows.
As with all of these types of discussions, it depends on what you can get back.
He can’t play short so a team would still need another extra middle infielder. If Flores is at 2nd then it makes the most sense to trade Murphy if he has value to another team, and use a Lutz/Satin/insertgenericbackcornerguy.
If we are out of it at the trade deadline, and San Francisco Is in the hunt And hasnt locked up Pence, we need to ship Santana, Lyons & Marcum to the Bay for Hunter !
In the meantime I say we sign Valverde to a one year deal for something minor like $2M + incentives. Forget about his poor September, the man is 110/118 in save opportunities in the last 3 years !
Assuming the Giants are in it, odds are pitching isn’t their problem, it will be lack of offense. They ain’t letting Pence go.
wally ball is the best thing for this org..
unfortunately, i think it will be used to sell tickets, not win games…
If Flores has a big year in Vegas, which is highly possible, and hits 30+ Hr out there, I see him being next off season’s version of Myers. He will be the central part of a trade with a team looking to acquire major league ready, inexpensive ball players.
The Reds might be a good choice since I dont know if they have anyone to replace Rolen.
If Flores has a big year i would look to trade Wright and his contract asap. That would completely revamp the team, give it a new face whoever it may be and hopefully get more talent to gel w/the current crop. And if Flores is the type of hitter who’s not afraid of the big spot, not a choke artist or an appeaser like Wright that would be the icing on the cake. Right now I know nothing about Flores the competitor, just numbers is all i have.
that’s not how real life works
you’re basically asking the mets to do what jose reyes is calling the miami franchise out for doing. the mets are not trading david wright, please for the love of everything holy – get over it.
the marlins are a joke, their owners are a joke, reyes said himself he doesn’t have to tell players not to play there because they saw him get a long term deal only to be traded
and you want the mets to do the exact same thing
wright will have a no trade clause due to veterans rights soon if he doesn’t already have one in his new deal.
so please if you’re going to come here and tell people they don’t know anything and are playing fantasy baseball – do yourself a favor and stop acting like its a good idea to trade a guy you just signed to a deal to make him possibly a life long met.
he’s here, he’s staying here so you either need to accept that or just turn the tv off when he’s at bat or fields a ball.
Wright has a full no-trade clause in his contract.
But, anyway.
I would assume he does, just wasn’t sure. Seriously anybody who wants the Mets to trade Wright now or after this season is asking the Mets to do exactly what the Marlins did – possibly worse because it was a homegrown player and the Marlins became the laughing stock of the league and have players saying they are liars.
Yeah great because it’s not hard enough to attract talent to queens lets follow the marlins blueprint and see if we can make it more challenging
trade clauses for 5/10 guys can be waived by player.
*no-trade clauses can be waived
David Wright wants to be a met.
Regardless, the 5/10 rule applies to players who DO NOT have a no trade clause in their contract, have been on the same team for 5 years, and in the majors for 10.
All NTCs can be waived by players whether they are the written into the contract kind or the 10/5 kind. If Wright didn’t get the official NTC in his contract (not everyone was aware that he did) he would’ve had the 10/5 kick in July 2014.
Regardless, it seems unlikely that Wright would be traded anytime soon. Nothing is impossible,but it’s pretty unlikely.
Exactly,
We see eye to eye on one thing at least. Of course only in my dreams Wright would by traded by then. But if Flores because the real deal and he was able to decently manager 3B, and can show potential to produce in big spots then I’d keep him around and when i’m able to ship Wright out i’d ship that guy the hell out of here so fast and cleanse that clubhouse of passive atmosphere he represents so quickly it feel like a new team overnight.
God, I’d love for that to happen but i’d be SHOCKED if it actually did, but you never know so we’llsee.
You’re choosing to not think rationally. At one point I would have said you’re a smarter fan than this.
You know the following, you’re just choosing to act like you don’t
-You know darn well the Mets are not trading Wright
-It’d be an embarrassment to the franchise and the fan base to sign a guy to a long term deal having a presser the way they did and then trade him a year or two later
-Wright would not sign a long term deal with his homegrown team to just waive his no trade clause a year or 2 after
The fact that he tried to cite a rule(incorrectly, I might add) hoping we wouldn’t know what it actually means… Says it all.
yeah, i figured i’d cite that a player can waive a no-trade clause in his contract and it happens all the time but i was gonna try to fool everyone because silly me knows that no one knows about this.
You caught me!
You are such a friggin DOPE you’re gonna destroy yourself in here. And judging by your ridiculous rants not only to me but to other people shows that, Wright lover or not it doesn’t matter. There are people here i hate/can’t stand but i still argue with them on a variety of topics but there’s a few real shitheads who i want no part of no matter what side of the fence they’re on. That’s you.
You’re another clown i want no part of in here
In a day or two they will start talking about trading Johan Santana (5/10 rights) at the trade deadline and pretend this conversation never existed.
Santana already has a full no trade clause …. so no we won’t because his 5/10 doesn’t matter. And I’d hope you understand the difference between trading Santana and trading Wright
Wrong clown – it’s the other way around. Wright’s no-trade clause won’t matter because he’ll a 5/10 player next year. It’s always been like that, don’t re-write history.
There was stupid post on MMO talking about if Wright would get a no-trade clause before he signed his deal and I had to keep from going off on that thread because it was written by Joe D. and I didn’t want to get banned.
I’m starting a baseball clinic in my area this summer, you should come and learn a few things.
Maniac, you’re all over the place right now.
You’re trying to come up with ways that a trade that will never happen can happen. It’s a waste of time.
As for Santana which I mentioned and you called me a clown referencing Wright – Santana’s mets contract included a full no trade clause. Therefore his 5/10 doesn’t matter
K Rod had a no trade clause too…
Upton had one as well…I guess he didn’t get traded either…
Um Metsie – both players you mention had limited no trade clauses.
Upton was able to block a trade to 4 teams Boston, Chicago Cubs, Seattle, Toronto
KRod as well had a limited no trade which is how the Mets were able to trade him since his agent messed up filing the paperwork.
Both players had absolutely no say in whether they could be traded or not – so really great example, thanks for chiming in
Ok try this one…Carlos Beltran….I guess we didn’t trade him either….
Please Jessup you guys are doing the usual making an argument based on some rule or thing written on a piece of paper as if that paper makes it impossible when we all know and have seen players with no trade clauses get traded all the time!
You guys are just using this No Trade banter to harrass Bay and Maniac thats all…
You know full well that Wright could waive his no trade clause even if it was a 5/10 defacto at any time he wanted.
And having a no trade clause RARELY means you CAN’T be traded merely that you had better find a team who can get them a ring or they are willing to go to before you talk turkey on what you might get for him.
Metsie do me a favor and read the reasons why I said David Wright would not get traded
we aren’t talking about a player in his final year on a bad team we are talking about a guy who just signed a long term contract with his home grown team…
would David Wright accept a trade 7 years from now maybe…. is David Wright going to be traded in the next 2 years, absolutely not and if were the New York Mets would join the Marlins in becoming the biggest laughing stock in the league so I’m sorry now I don’t think that will happen
Reasonable excuses to think it’s not likely…
But hardly proof it CAN’T or WON’T EVER HAPPEN!
If someone called tomorrow and offered three top 10 BA Listers for him do you really think Sandy wouldn’t even try due to any reason other than Wright and his right of refusal?
If we lose 100 games and 40 Million this year meaning another set of loans to pay the bills you don’t think Wright will go on the Block?
I sure do!
Cause he is the only fat Salary left to cut….
I personally see them waiting 3-4 years before they try and trade Wright.
Cause thats right around the time this rebuild is supposed to be done (if Dickey not being worth it is any indication) and if it fails the money won’t be there to pay him.
By the way Maniac, Wright has 8.075 years of MLB service time. Which means for 2 years he’d need no trade protection before 5/10 rule comes into effect… so you should probably edit those manuals for your clinic
the 5/10 rule doesnt apply to Wright at all, not even a little bit, yet you use it to support your argument(incorrectly). I don’t understand what the problem is lol
Bayonne, you are literally pathetic. I can’t imagine how pathetic of a life you live.
the 5/10 Rule whereby players who have been with a club for 5 consecutive years and have been a major league player for 10 years cannot be traded without their consent.
How does that apply to Wright? Go ahead, explain please.
You must be new here, but what is pathetic is the constant resorting to insults whenever some of you run out of facts to support an argument. You all complain when you get blasted, but you don’t mention who drew first blood. In most cases when Bayonne goes off on someone that person has it coming.
Guess what? Not everybody loves Alderson or thinks Wright is as good as Chipper or Jeter. Deal with it. Doesn’t make us haters, only Met fans with a different point of view.
Most of the problems on this site come from immature posters who cant deal with those two facts, or that think it’s blasphemy to bring up Alderson 8 straight losing seasons and the fact that every team he left was worse than what Minaya left him. The Padres got worse not better under his charge. To some of us, that’s a problem. So is this half ass rebuilding. teams that rebuild don’t give a declining 30 year old an 8 year deal for $150 million. That’s more than what Bay, Castillo, Perez and K-Rod got COMBINED.
I wont tread on your beliefs, don’t tread on ours.
that had nothing to do with anything we were talking about.
I got called a shithead because he doesnt know what the 5/10 rule is… i said that’s pathetic.
Get over it. Trust me, if it was up to the owners Bayonne wouldnt be here.
And I’ve once again said so many times, I don’t care for or against Alderson, and yet you all think I’m for this guy. You’re all crazy lol
Technically it’s 138 mil for 8 years, not 150
And the contracts signed by Bay (66 mil), Castillo (25 mil), Perez (36 mil) and K-Rod (37 mil) = 164 million. (164 is more than 138….And it would have been even more if Mets didn’t trade K-Rod and instead picked up his 2012 option like many here cried they should have done)
25m castillo
66m bay
36m perez
37m krod plus a 17.5m vesting option
Wright’s extension value was $138
So once again, “That’s more than what Bay, Castillo, Perez and K-Rod got COMBINED.” a false statement that you hope people don’t check you on.
Just for the sake of helping you out 25+66+36+37 is 164 plus another 17.5 is 181.5
But yeah you got Random good there……………………….
And, I guess, Met Maniac in your world, when someone explains something properly to you, they have it coming?
Because you just said, I had it coming when he called me a shithead, when all I did was correct his interpretation of a rule, so maybe, hes the one who ran out of “facts” and resorted to insults.
Nice Try.
I wish Omar left us with the mess that Alderson left Oakland, then we would have a Jason Giambi, Miguel Tejada, Ramon Hernandez, Tim Hudson, Mark Mulder, Barry Zito, Eric Chavez, Eric Byrnes and Ben Grieve to build a hell of a team with. I guess you could say that he left Oakland a mess since Billy Beane only made the playoffs 5 out of 7 years with that group. And that’s not even bringing up the years that they went to 3 straight WS winning it all in 89. Lets hope the Mets become that mess when he’s done.
Also you guys that kill Alderson for SD really need to get together on what’s right and what’s wrong. Some of you say he shouldn’t get credit for the Padres making the playoffs his 1st two seasons there because Kevin Towers was the GM but by the same token you guys say he left them a mess. Which one is it? You do know that in both places ownership made him strip payroll down to nearly league worst in both cases right? Or do you just look at the won-loss recors after he left. You guys should really look into it. there’s a reason why he’s a very well regarded executive.
SD also drafted Chase Headley, Nick Hundley, Matt latos, Cory Luebke and David Freese in the 4 or 5 years he was there and they won 90 games the year after he left. Is that any worse than what we drafted?
Hi Doctor K,
I think you are giving Sandy Alderson way too much credit for the team he “left” Billy Beane with. In 1990 Beane began his career as a scout in Oakland and after the 1993 season became the assistant general manager in charge of scouting. I think it would be more appropriate to say that Beane “left” the team to himself.
Hi Joey!
I have to say you are 100% wrong. Beane was hired by Alderson as a scout and then he took him under his wing and molded him into the GM position after serving as his assistant. Beane admitted himself that everything he learned was from his mentor Sandy Alderson. Sandy put that scouting staff together that accumulated all those players Beane won with not the other way around. Sorry but you have your facts wrong I’m afraid. Beane was never director of scouting. Dick Bogard was from 85-95 and then Grady Fuson took over in 95. Beane was only an area scout until he got the Asst GM position. Not sure where you got that info from.
Don’t waste your time Doctor K. He’ll make things up to prove a point. Like Billy Beane being in charge of scouting. lol… That never happened. Ask him about Bill Rigney… LMAO!!!
Hi Dr. K,
Yes, my apologies for that. I was wrong about Beane’s specific responsibilities having no need to vet further into his background more than is generally written about.
Had known that Beane had been involved in scouting after quiting as a player – that he was an advance scout and when promoted to Assistant GM scouting is often applied to his title. Since you brought out more information about the Oakland front office it took me a while to find that the scouting he did was in the minor leagues, not with draft selections. Knowing Beane’s reputation for scouting great talent, I assumed that was what was meant by Assistant GM/Scouting.
Lots of websites are vague about that and believe or not, it was Wikipedia of all places that alluded to him being the assistant GM in charge of minor league scouting.
Thanks for pointing that out about who was indeed in charge, but I still contend that the draft picks had little to do with Sandy doing the evaluation because raw talent cannot be evaluated based on sabermetrics or any advanced statistical analysis. In a web question and answer session years after Billy Beane became the Oakland GM, Bill James cited that the jury was still out applying advanced statistics to those on the college level.
QUESTION: Have you looked at interpreting college statistics, or is there too much noise there? Lewis mentions in Moneyball that the A’s are putting a lot of emphasis on college stats, though it’s not clear whether they are just eyeballing raw numbers or trying to do some sort of translation.
ANSWER: Well, there is a tremendous amount of noise in the data, and it is not clear to me that we can filter it all out and get useful data. But its not clear that we CAN’T, either; we just don’t know.
So even though I did get the names wrong, I do believe credit for raw talent inherited by Billy Beane then goes to Dick Bogard, Grady Fuson and those below them and not Sandy.
BTW – attached is the transcript of that web session. And thanks for being so polite.
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/3503
Hey Joey!
No problem. Yes Beane was a minor league scout not an amateur scout. Now what you’re saying about Sandy regarding draft picks can be said about every GM for every team. They do not scout amateur talent. That’s what scouts are for. I’m not sure why you would say that he shouldn’t get credit for players produced in his farm system. You are then taking away credit from every GM in baseball and that’s totally unfair since it’s the GM who puts a philosophy in place for both scouting and player development and in Alderson’s case he was the first GM to implement statistical analysis into amateur scouting. Now there’s a lot of teams doing so.
Alderson is also the one who put Bogard and Fuson in those positions to begins with. He replaced Dave Weincek with Bogard in 1985 and Fuson took over for Bogard in 95 when Sandy elevated Bogard as an assistant GM. Alderson revamped the entire scouting department in 1985 and hired more scouts and had them all follow this philosophy of analyzing their statistics as well as traditional scouting methods. It was a combination of both not one or the other. So yes he gets the credit for those players as well as the blame for those who busted.
And as far as what Bill James said, he really didn’t shed any light either way. He didn’t know if you could interpret college stats or not. GM’s seem to think you can. Walt Jocketty who was the A’s farm director under Alderson until he became the Cards GM implemented statistical analysis into his scouting staff and John Mozeliak who took over the GM role when Jocketty left for Cincy continues that today. There’s an interesting interview with Mozeliak who explains how he incorporates Stat Anlys into scouting. The Rangers, Rays, Yanks, Redsox and quite a few other teams have gone this route. Who knows it could be every team by now.
So in essence it’s really no different than any other team regarding amateur scouting. You just can’t say the GM deserves no credit for players drafted during his tenure. Especially when that GM changed the way the went about abut scouting and developing players. Something tells me though if those players were terrible you would be blaming him instead of Fuson and Bogard. It seem to be like that on this site. He gets credit for his teams failures and credit is given to others in his successes. Totally unfair and unobjective.
Hi Dr.K.,
Appreciate your understanding regarding the confusion over Billy Beane’s role as it related to scouting.
My point about Sandy Alderson is that he is reflective of a new generation of general managers with highly different roles and responsibilities than those of decades ago and thus with many of them the credit for the baseball matters that was once automatically attributed to them often needs to be due to others instead.
With the expansion of baseball into a multi billion dollar industry teams are now being run as a business. With that in mind, the role of the general manager has changed tremendously over the past few decades. Whereas an older generation like Gabe Paul, Johnny Murphy and those before them were able to run baseball clubs like a mom and pop small business, it isn’t so today. Whereas most general manages back then came through the ranks of careers in the game (from hall of famer Joe Cronin to Branch Rickey who spent two years as a fringe player) and concentrated mainly on player personnel, today Billy Beane is the exception and not the rule. Most all GM’s come not from the ranks of former players (minor leaguer, fringe or scout) but from the corporate world (I think there are only three former players holding that position at this time). And unlike the older general manager who concentrated mainly on player personnel along with (for example) negotiating local television and radio contacts, today’s general managers are astute corporate executives and have been hired to run the team as corporation, no longer a mom and pop business.
Some have a balance of corporate and baseball experience, others have very little. In that year, Sandy Alderson was brought on as the team’s Vice President and General Counsel. He admitted to having absolutely no professional knowledge of the game whatsoever. At the same time, Bill Rigney was brought in as the team’s Assistant to the President, Baseball Matters.
Rigney had a vast background in the game as player, manager, scout and yes, baseball announcer as well. He was obviously well versed in the game. Whereas Sandy Alderson graduated from Harvard Law School in 1976 and then worked for the law firm of Farella Braun & Martel in San Francisco, California where he then met Roy Eisenhardt.
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/It-Musta-Been-Rigged-Bill-Rigney-dead-at-83-2949823.php#page-2
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/ex-marine-harvard-law-school-grad-sandy-alderson-brings-toughness-mets-trenches-article-1.192497?pgno=1
Sandy started out in the business end of the organization and then became general manager based on his organizational skills. From the above Daily News article:
“The question I’m always asked is, ‘Why didn’t you hire a baseball guy to do that rather than a lawyer?’” says Roy Eisenhardt, the former A’s president who brought Alderson to Oakland in 1980.
“Eisenhardt was a partner at the San Francisco law firm Farella, Braun & Martel when Alderson came to clerk there one summer in the mid-’70s. After Eisenhardt’s father-in-law, Walter Haas, bought the A’s in 1980, Eisenhardt had a new post and hired Alderson to be the team’s general counsel in ’81. Two years later Alderson was promoted to GM, although Eisenhardt says the job title was VP of baseball operations.
“I didn’t think of Sandy as a lawyer. I thought of Sandy as a really smart guy who knows how to analyze decisions and make decisions and who had had the experience of being in the Marine Corps and (serving) in Vietnam, which is a real character-building experience. Those were the skills I was looking for because I wasn’t looking for just somebody making baseball judgments.”
While Sandy remained as Oakland’s general manager, Rigney also held the same position he was hired for until 1990 when he went into semi-retirement while staying with the A’s in a consulting capacity.
Whom was the last officially named general manager before Sandy took over? Billy Martin. Definitely a complete contrast to each other. Now, Eisenhardt says he hired Sandy for his character building skills. But when Oakland won it’s first American League pennant in 1988, Sandy Alderson had this to say about Bill Rigney:
“When you talk about people who have contributed to our success, you have to single out Bill Rigney. His contributions have been enormous. He has been involved in every one of our player acquisitions since I came here in 1982. I’ve watched 600 or 700 games with Bill, and it’s been an education.”
Hence, due to the changing role of the General Manager, and how that specifically applies to Sandy Alderson, is why I believe less credit is due him as far as decision making based on his own player evaluations just as it is for many of today’s general managers who depend so much more on the people below than in the days of Gabe Paul and others. He is a corporate executive involved in the complex running of a major business entity who should get the credit (as you point out) for hiring the baseball people below him but not for the success or failure of the team (George Steinbrenner always tried taking credit for the Yankee success (while not the failures for about a 14 year stretch of course LOL) when we know it was the baseball people below him that he always seemed to fire).
One thing I will acknowledge about Sandy is that he does want to set a tone as to the way he feels the team should be run, however, the debate there is how well he is really qualified to do that. We know how he attributed the Mets lack of run scoring in the second half to that of the lowered team PPPA – which resulted in one less pitch every twenty at bats. We also know he called himself an observer and thus could not give an opinion about what might be wrong with Ike Davis. When he first took questions from Met fans on SNY in November, 2010, he was asked about the problem with Citi Field’s dimensions as it related to the Mets not hitting a lot of home runs. His answer was that the problem was not with the dimensions but with the players having to learn to hit home runs there. Not very astute, baseball wise.
However, talk to him about the subject of business, finance, legalities and organization and he often goes way over the head of most of us – in those fields he is indeed quite an astute individual.
Again, for all those reasons is why I disagreed with giving credit to Sandy as far as the players he inherited. You are right, no general manager can handle so many things on his own and depends heavily upon those below him – much more than in the past. For example, Mike Francesa questioned why the Jets fired Tannembaum as general manager since he said it was really Rex Ryan who made the player and draft decisions with Tannembaum handling the business end of the operation.
Enjoyed the discussion and thanks again for understanding the mistake I made about Beane’s earlier role.
now this is funny.
What’s funny? that you don’t know what the 5/10 rule is, and once educated on the subject had to resort to calling me a shithead.
I guess that’s funny, in some weird not really funny way.
Zito, Mulder, and Byrnes were drafted after Alderson left. Also, in SD, he traded Freese for Jim Edmonds who hit sub .200 for SD.
It’s not just his win loss record after he left in SD that’s an issue, it’s his win loss record while he was in SD that’s an issue – They were sub .500 overall.
I’m not trying to imply that Alderson is a bad GM, I’m just skeptical that he’s a very good GM. Yes, he had a great run there with the A’s for three years, and he deserves a ton of credit for that, but that’s just three years out of many years. What about all the seasons he’s had teams that were sub .500?
What if that great run with the A’s was just a flash in the pan? I mean, that was over 20 years ago. Like I pointed out, he really didn’t have great success recently with the Padres.
All I’m saying is that maybe he isn’t as good as a lot of us think he is.
Actually you’re right Zito was but the other 2 Mulder and Byrnes were drafted in 98 when he was still there. The same guys who I mentioned earlier that are giving Alderson credit for 98 as part of his consecutive losing streak as GM then have to give him credit for Mulder and Byrnes. He didn’t leave in 98 he just gave the GM duties to Beane while remaining presdent. The scouting dept was still in place in 98 that Alderson put there.
He has blemishes in his career just like every other good or even great executive no doubt but before people (Not you Vinny B) kill him for Oaklands won-loss record before and after the title teams you have to look at what was going on during that time
He took over a really bad Oakland team with only Canseco on the farm and no pitching to build with, sort of along the line as what Cashen inherited with the Mets. It took him time but he built up the farm system and nearly put together a dynasty team. After 92 the pitching staff went down hill due to age and free agency and trading off a lot of youth for vets to go for it all and that’s when the team went south and throw in the fact that their owner passed away and the new owner forced him to drastically cut payroll.
During those lean years they did manage to build up the farm that set them up for another run only it was Beane who benefitted from it but the majority of that talent was accumulated under Alderson.
And I don’t think he left SD in such a mess. The did win 90 games in 2010 1 year after he left and they did make the playoffs his 1st 2 years. Not to mention the owner forced him to slash the payroll down to 40 million which is why he took off. He may or may not turn the Mets into a force like the late 80′s A’s but I think it’s ridiculous to call him the worst GM in franchise history and the worst in the game like some here do on a daily basis. BTW I agree the Freese for Edmonds trade was a head scratcher and he traded quite a few prospects in his Oakland days to try and win more titles and that’s another point that people make here that’s not true that he only trades allstars for prospects. He’s done the opposite in his career many times.
I think its funny how someone who uses logic to rationalize their arguments is a shithead to you.
Like I said, keep proudly repping Bayonne. lol
Maybe the Mets should approach Wright about being like Chipper Jones and move him to the OF to create a slot for Flores.
Wright is a gold glove caliber 3B right now. Why would you move him to the OF for a lesser fielding talent? Why not move Flores to LF?
Because Flores is not an outfielder?
And Wright is?
Who said he was? Then again, he’s the “Captain” and willing to do what’s right for the team, he’d be open to such moves, right?
Can Flores play a gold glove caliber 3B?
If not, why would you put him at 3B and put a better fielder in the least important position on the field?
I’m not gonna pretend to have seen Flores play 3B but judging from reports I’ve read he isn’t anything but average at best … so why would you put him at 3B when Wright is above average?
The only reason to do it is to dig at Wright… if he’s a better fielder than Flores at 3B then I don’t care how much some people dislike Wright, the team would be better with him playing 3B.
“Can Flores play a gold glove caliber 3B?”
Who knows if he won’t get the chance to play on the big stage at 3rd? I don’t know and you don’t know. Please, don’t regard to reports of him being deemed “average” because I recall a guy who was not that much of a better defender at the time than Flores was at Flores’s age, and now he’s well regarded all around the league as the best defensive 3rd baseman in the game. His name? Adrian Beltre.
Not saying it will happen, because it won’t, but Wright has gone on record before to saying how much he always wanted to play short since (I’m paraphrasing here) he played like a shortstop defensively at 3rd base, aside from the fact that Wright was a shortstop in HS.
So just to be clear, we’re saying Flores could be as good as Beltre at 3B when Flores has played there less than 200 times in the minors and Beltre played almost 1,000 times in the minors
Adrian Beltre didn’t become a top level fielding 3B until he played about 600 something major league games. So that’s over 3 years you’re looking to gamble on Flores and diminishing the defense by moving Wright to LF… not to mention if Flores came up next year to play 3B Beltre would have logged about 400 more games at 3B in pro ball prior to mlb debut.
After 1996, Baseball America pegged him #30 prospect and mentioned his defensive potential at 3B. So let’s not try and pretend that nobody saw his fielding ability coming. There have been plenty of reports stating Flores’ defensive woes in the infield.
You’re reaching for the sake of moving Wright to the OF.
If in 2014 Wright is a better fielder than Flores at 3B, you’d make the team worse by moving Wright to LF.
If you told me Flores was better in the field right now, I’d say you have an argument… but he isn’t so you don’t.
The Alderson rant repeated over and over. One size fits all. The Alderson fiasco will never die as long as there are blind and non-baseball fans to repeat it… The broken record…… It doesn’t matter. The fan base continues to shrink as more and more real fans give up, despite the hapless and boring and PR campaign…. The broken record only broke one thing… The NY Mets.
Beltre was in the majors at 19 and at no time in the minors was he thought of as a future below avg defender. I’m not sure if you have him mixed up with someone else Hitman.
I’ve seen Flores play probably more than 30 times and he’ll never be average or better no matter where he plays. He’s probably best suited for 1B. There’s no way in hell any team would move Wright off 3rd to put a player with Flores’ defensive liabilities there. Flores will be in the bigs because of his bat. He should’ve been moved off SS a long time ago. A good defensive comparison to Flores would be Jose Vidro.
Jessep – what trade? What the heck are you talking about? I’m just correcting your misunderstanding of 5/10 rights in comparison to no-trade clauses. I couldn’t care less about what you random and Bayonne are jabbering about with trading Wright.
we weren’t really jabbering, just educating Bayonne. It’s simple.
the 5/10 Rule whereby players who have been with a club for 5 consecutive years and have been a major league player for 10 years cannot be traded without their consent.
That does not apply to David Wright since he has a No-trade clause in his contract. Therefore anyone suggesting we trade him is talking about literally pointless conversation, because it can not happen. David wouldn’t waive his clause regardless.
Such morons just looking to score point and not being able to see the forest through the trees.
Okay Wright makes more than the Bay, Castillo and Perez deals combined!!!!!
Feel better???
And the other fool tried to add in a vesting option that never vested to score points too.
Will the Alderson ass linking never end?
Instead of saying, WOW, Wright got more that those three put together, they are trying to deflect the point which is that Wright’s contract could be the worst deal in franchise history.
The same clods that complained that 4 years was too much for 30 year old Bourn praise 8 years for 30 year old Wright. A Wright mind you, whose best season was five years ago.
It never ends.
LMAO at the lengths people go through to justify that God Awful deal.
Wright is making slightly more than Bay (17.25 vs. 16.50 million) AAV, which is really all that matters. Much less than Santana, and slightly less than castillo+Ollie combined made.
Wright did not get paid more than market on an annual basis, just consider the last 2 (cheaper, at something like 13mill) the “marketing budget” bonus $$.
rare, but nice, to see a guy actually get paid less for those last few years where they are most likely going to be earning less.
Here we go with semantics. Yeah because Omar didn’t get killed about the length of his deals it was the $6MM annual average people hated about Castillo deal. Oh brother, there’s no end to the ass licking.
Go back to bed van,
Maniac — You speak as authority on the immaturity of some bloggers on this site. You are frequently one of the worst.
LOL somebody can’t handle being wrong!
Pointing out that 164 > 138 isn’t “linking” Alderson’s ass. Nor was it going through any great lengths to prove Wright’s deal isn’t a bad one. I don’t think Wright’s deal is a bad one, but I wasn’t even trying to make that argument there. The sum of KRod, Castillo, Bay, and Ollie’s contracts is pretty irrelevant in that evaluation. Your fuzzy math just caught my eye so I pointed out the inaccuracies there.
And its pretty funny that a few posts above you were calling another poster “immature” and saying it he was “pathetic” for “the constant resorting to insults ” – and now you are calling others “morons” and “Alderson ass linking ” just for pointing out your math was off.
the entire mets history is FILLED with “utiity” players that hit .230 . And they were all traded for by giving up decent players. Now for some info for the clueless : YOU DON’T STRENGTHEN ONE POSITION BY WEAKENING ANOTHER ! !
EX: YOU WILL TRADE A 1st BASEMAN WHO HIT 24 HOMERUNS FOR A GOOD HITTING S.S. AND IN THE TRADE YOU GET A 1st BASEMAN WHO HITS 12 HOMERS. ALL YOU DID WAS TRADE 1 HOLE IN THE LINEUP FOR ANOTHER.
“Don’t waste your time Doctor K. He’ll make things up to prove a point. Like Billy Beane being in charge of scouting. lol… That never happened. Ask him about Bill Rigney… LMAO!!!”
When Metro, Boomer and others who I have friendly disagreements with begin to make such accusations, that will be the time to address character assassination.
Try telling those guys that Bill Rigney was the guy that built the A’s championship teams and not Sandy and see if they don’t say the same thing.
Fonzie,
My feelings about Bill Rigney’s role in building the Oakland clubs is well known and no secret. While there are those who agree with me, there are also obviously those who disagree with me as well.
However, in all my discussions you are the only one to turn it into a personal vendetta and it is obvious this behavior has nothing to do with Bill Rigney, Sandy Alderson or anything else related to the subject. If you feel the need to continue acting this way, please also know there are other more important things for me to get upset over than that.