8
2013
This Week’s Featured Post: The Clock Has Started Ticking On The Sandy Experiment
An article by 
Pundits often say a college football coach deserves at least two years to turn a team over before anyone can honestly pass judgement. That time provides the new coach with enough time to recruit his own players and implement his own scheme. General managers in Major League Baseball get no such grace period. Thus the dilemma Sandy Alderson currently finds himself in.
Since taking the helm on October 29, 2010, Sandy Alderson has deconstructed the roster, diminished its major league talent, worked to develop the farm system and effectively divided the fan base. With that being said, if we’re playing by similar rules, only now can we begin to evaluate his handiwork.
When the Mets reconvene next week, the roster will sport the new, younger and most importantly cheaper nucleus Alderson hopes can lead the franchise for the foreseeable future. Jonathon Niese, Matt Harvey and Zack Wheeler lead a plethora of impressive young arms that stretch deep into the team’s farm system. Travis d’Arnaud joins David Wright and to a lesser extent Ike Davis as the cornerstones of the team’s lineup. Simply put, Alderson chose to jettison three of the team’s best players, whether by trade or via free agency. Now he hopes his young additions, both of which probably won’t break camp with the team, are the glue that brings this thing together.
If the Mets are to evolve into a perennial playoff contender, this is the season the shift should occur. While that may not immediately translate to more wins this season, the writing should be on the wall come summer’s end. If things work out, the team will find itself searching for the final big piece(s) next winter when Alderson has legitimate financial resources to make it happen. If that’s the case, he will have indeed delivered on his promise to put a playoff contender on the field for the 2014 season.
Sandy has made his moves, some of which have been impressive. When he told the press yesterday that “we are not that far away”, I’m inclined to agree with him. This is the route he has chosen. Will it be the path that takes the Mets to the promised land? The upcoming season won’t answer that question, but for the first time since his arrival the Mets have a direction and its one which should represent progress in the coming months. These will be the seasons that write Sandy Alderson’s legacy in Queens. Did he get it right? We’ll know sooner than you think.
Follow me on Twitter at @RobPatterson83
About the Author: Rob Patterson
Ultimately, I owe nearly thirty years of Mets related torture to my mother, who is the reason I became a fan. I was too young to remember the 86 run, but hope to see one I'll be able to recall much sooner than later. I enjoy writing about the team and welcome your feedback on my posts. Oh..and I am not with 28!
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 24 | 18 | .571 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 20 | .535 | 1.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 23 | .465 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 16 | 24 | .400 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 32 | .256 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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Rob,
A few points –
Sandy has resources right now and needs to use them.
Wins always matter, and wins in 2013 matter. He still has a good opportunity to give them a chance to compete in 2013 without compromising the futurwe, and needs to follow through.
This mythical big piece for 2014 may not exist, which is why he needs to strengthen this team as best he can right now.
The clock is not ticking any more on Alderson that it was since day 1. The Wilpons sign his paycheck, and they are happy with him. I suspect at his age his plan was to honor the 4 year contract and move on, perhaps to succeed Uncle Buddy for the big payday to cap of his career, but time will tell.
Here’s my post from a few days ago and whaddya know?
A few days later there’s a story about the GM saying the future is not far off and also suddenly, for some reason, i see more people starting to say what are the Mets waiting for:
Bayonne Mets Fan February 1, 2013 at 3:58 pm
That’s the tragedy in all of this. Why do the Mets have to miss the playoffs for 2 more years via not trying? Or the hyper-ridiculous notion of sitting back contently and waiting for 2016 or 2017 like DrBoomer or DrBoomy says. That’s just plain insane.
When the Mets got Keith Hernandez in 1983 it was only a month after Darryl Strawberry arrived and a year before Dwight Gooden was even on the big club!! and the 1983 pitching staff of Tom Seaver, Ed Lynch, Walt Terrel, Craig Swan, & Mike Torrez i’m sure really motivated Frank Cashen to get Keith Hernandez, right? #sarcasm
Right now you have Ike Davis at 1B, Tejada at 2B, Wright at 3B, still not sold on Murph being the guy to go to war with when it’s time to compete. Harvey is already here and I believe he’s the real deal, and if Zack Wheeler is the stud everybody says he is and his agent sounded very confident in his abilities so why wait on Wheeler? He just may be ready by the end of ST. d’Arnaud could be ready soon to so why wait?
NOW is the time to start adding the pieces. If Frank Cashen did it the way Sandy is the Mets never would have gotten Keith Hernandez.
DO IT NOW! Was Gooden treated like a little baby with kid gloves? No. He came up and was ready to fight for the division right away. Same should be with Harvey and Wheeler if Wheeler shows he’s ready, if not, then you STILL go get players now because he’ll be here very soon
Did Frank Cashen wait for Dwight Gooden to arrive before finally starting to put together a team? NO! Hernandez was already here.
I’m not crazy about Bourne but get a FRIGGIN major league outfielder already. It should have been done early during the off season not now, instead of thinking they can turn water into wine by signing a bunch of retreads who THEY think they can turn into starter this team could have contended this year.
- Harvey
- Wheeler
- Niese
- Santana
- Gee
- d’Arnaud
- Davis
- Tejada
- Wright
- (un-named major league outfielder who SHOULD be here already!)
- Murphy – i guess since he’s here already
What are the Mets waiting for? Get players NOW
I actually agree, I just think it’s going to take one more year. I have never said 2016+++ I have always said 2014. If I thought they actually could have been big players this year in terms of trade and FA then I was already on the record of trying to attain the Upton brothers…
But regardless the article is correct. Time is a nearing quickly and either now or in the almost immediate future we will start to find out if there was a plan and if the plan worked.
If you wanted to obtain the Upton brothers and thought they were a solution then why are you so at odds with every other move. Not that I am a fan of BJ, but adding one of them is exactly what we are talking about in starting to build the team up. So why them but the rest of the options wait until next year?
Because the rest presented to me are more of short term fixes instead of part of a long term plan. Just as I view Bourn unless the deal is something the Mets can use as an advantage later.
I would love to add long-term pieces that fit the Mets plans but I also realize not many of those are out there, some cost a lot of money (like BJ) and some cost a lot in trade or we just don’t matchup (like Justin). I can understand this off-season that they do not believe they have the resources or the rest of the house isn’t ready. Next off-season I will have a hard time with that as the reasoning to not add the final pieces.
In other words, I don’t really care about fillers that are just designed to pacify.
my take Salty is that BJ was an option, but don’t think they wanted to go the contract terms + losing a 1st round pick that Atlanta did (and they did that deal pretty early). I bet that is B.J. had been the guy to slide (instead of Bourn) they would be all over him. The other FA options were never really a consideration (hamilton, Grienke) are just did not fit the “plan”, or were just not enough of a potential difference maker (and combined with not being part of the future just passed).
and in terms of trades, IMO the system is about 1 year short of being ready to support that. Plus, with Justin, they seemed to want an established ML guy we did not seem to have to send. You really do need to have a volume (excess) of almost-ready, well regarded prospects to make these deals and also support your ML club.
hopefully next off season (or mid-year 2013) they do have the volume to trade (mostly RHSP!)
what I personally would have liked to see is more young ML player trades. We did get Cowgill which fits the bill, though take that to the next level of quality. Maybe Span or Revere turns out to be a move like that, but remains to be seen.
Agreed. There really weren’t that many FA options that made sense this off-season.
Ditto, nothing really did ideally line up for us unless we were willing to overspend on an overpaid OF like BJ, or trade away parts we need in the future.
I wouldnt lose a wink of sleep if we dont sign Bourn, if we look at his numbers from an analytical viewpoint we realize he’s not the difference maker some seem to believe.
His age, OBP, SO, caught stealings etc…dont justify a big 5 year deal for big money, thats why hes still available. We could be mortgaging the future for a player that doesnt merit it.
I think you have to respect or at least acknowledge that we are witnessing a different era in terms of how pitchers are handled. Comparing a 2013 young pitcher to Dwight Gooden doesn’t really matter, because this isn’t 1983.
The Mets built Gooden up in the minor leagues before unleashing him in the majors. Gooden threw just over 190 innings in Single A in 83… teams are now trying to gradually build up a pitchers arm so they do not waste their arm at a younger age when they aren’t as good. This works with some and doesn’t work with others – it’s case by case. IE Chris Sale last year versus Strasburg.
I mean just think about the fact Gooden went from A ball to MLB the next year. How often does that happen anymore?
But again consider that before Gooden touched an MLB mound he logged 191 innings the year prior. Wheeler is at a max of 149.
The difference between 191 innings and 149 innings could be a pennant race.
Gooden also struck out 300 in 191 innings with a 2.50 ERA in A ball before coming up. That´s dominance.
Oh Dave I do not deny the fact he dominated. My point is, you will RARELY see a kid go from A ball to MLB in today’s game and it will be even more rare that an A baller with potential to be an ace throws 190+ innings. That’s just not how it’s done anymore. You cannot rewrite history and you cannot pretend 2013 and 1983 are the same.
Bayonne – I hear you. Can’t have 1984 w/o 1983. There’s a lot of wisdom to the understanding that 2014 isn’t the promised land. But rebuilding is a progressive and ever-evolving process. Here’s a couple of thoughts:
First – This team as currently constituted is a blend of Alderson & Minaya. Omar shouldn’t be vilified so much for the talent that he brought in as much as the contracts he agreed to. Clearly, he was under the impression that his funds were unlimited. But he’s responsible for much of the young talent on our roster.
Second – Alderson came in at a very difficult time for him and the Mets. He had just lost his Dad, and the Wilpons were desperately holding onto the ball club & headed toward some ugly litigation. He’s done a remarkable job in slashing payroll and infusing the roster with young, bona fide talented ball players. He landed Wheeler for a 2-month rental, and d’Arnaud & Syndergaard for a 38-year-old knuckleballer.
Alderson’s mis-steps to date have been Carasco, Francisco, Reyes & Takahashi. The first two should’ve never been here and the latter two should’ve never left.
Third – Don’t expect Harvey & Wheeler to pitch anywhere near the number of innings that Doc did, especially Wheeler. Harvey won’t be under any restrictions, but probably won’t top 220 innings, while Wheeler will likely reach 160 innings combining AAA & MLB.
The pitching staff is rounding into a healthy blend of experience and youth. I think Lyons, Burke & Atchison will make a big difference, I expect Parnell, Edgin & Carson to take more steps forward & I have no idea what to expect from Francisco, Feliciano or Hawkins.
The outfield remains a chief concern, but I don’t think we’re as bad off as last year. Torres & Bay’s departure is addition by subtraction. I expect more from Duda & Niewenhuis this year. I think a platoon of Baxter & Brown will sew up right field with solid defense and solid contributions at the plate.
As for Michael Bourn – never gave him much thought early in the off-season, but his acquisition at this time makes so much sense. He’s a perfect fit – a lead-off hitter with speed that has a plus, plus glove in centerfield and absolutely strengthens us up the middle, which is crucial.
Left – Duda/Turner
Center – Bourn
Right – Brown/Baxter or Kirk
I think the Mets should continue to develop Valdespin at 2nd base – I mean REALLY work him , and consider moving some combination of Duda, Flores, Murphy & a young arm for a very talented OF prospect.
One thing’s for sure, this year will be very interesting.
Well T2C, While I’m not opposed to Bourn being signed at all I would hardly agree he is the PERFECT fit….
he bats Lefty and that throws the top of the order a bit out of kilter….We already have a glut of LHH OFers.
What we really need is a RH Power Hitting OFer.
If he was a switch hitter it would be a much better fit.
I agree. This is a make or break year for Sandy. The time has come where the team is legitimately 100% Sandy’s. And the honeymoon is over. The team needs to show real improvement this year, and I think it will.
Sandy should have roughly 30 million or more to spend on the FA market and add to the current roster, so if the young core can just be solid and show real improvement, he’ll have a nice base to work from and add to.
I agree, but count mid-year moves and next off season as part of “this” year. And yes, that means the 2014 team better be past the transition phase, and be put together to be as good and competitive as it can be.
“the 2014 team better be past the transition phase”
Yup and I have said that since day one. Otherwise I will be holding the pike.
Agreed. The improvements need to be continual. But I think there is still a money issue — unless Bourn is not signed. Since Sandy will have roughly 30 million or more to spend next winter, that will be the true test. I feel he will continue to improve the club. Next winter will be very interesting. I think we’ll see more trades — maybe of some young players currently on the team or prospects — mixed in with more free agent signings.
no it’s not Sandy’s team even though you keep repeating that around here and the only one doing so, basically. The team is built on the blueprint laid out by Minaya and the the 3 new prospects are acquired using players Omar Minaya got.
Omar’s hands are all over the place and until the day Wheeler and/or d’Arnaud come up then you can say the current’ GMs decisions are starting to make impact even though he PURPOSELY TANKED the last 2 seasons and should never be forgiven for that. It did not have to be that way. I know i broke my own rule by responding to this moron but he keeps trying to say this is “Sandy’s team” with the reason being his PREJUDICE and his ANGER that the Mets lost some real, real rough, heartbreaking games from 2006-2008 and he’s looking to take his anger out on the FO instead where the REAL accountability belongs. This guy is flagrant JERK.
Yes, it should be considered ALL Sandy’s team by now. By year 3, Sandy has had a real chance to trade away, release, or not bring back all players Omar had. The fact he decided to keep some and build around them is Sandy’s choice.
I know, some of you want it both ways. If the team tanks it’s Sandy’s fault. But if the team does well, then it’s only because of Omar. LOL
Keep in mind that Reyes, Wright, Glavine and Feliciano were brought in by Phillips or Duquette. The Mets don’t contend in 2006 without those players. Did you say in 2006 — Oh, but Reyes and Wright are Phillips and Duquette guys? Did you say that wasn’t Omar’s team???????????
We didn’t say that back than because nobody cared about those things back then. And that was a good thing. It was about baseball and the Mets. And a lot of us were also happy when Minaya was fired including me but I also had said earlier that if i had my druthers I would have kept him and just fire the manager because AT THE TIME the big story was the lackluster leadership of Jerry Manuel.
But everything changed when Alderson was hired and count me among the people that was happy that day too. That lasted about 2 weeks when suddenly the saber goons started to emerge from the cracks going to great lengths to lie and embellish Omar’s shortcomings and saying NOW we’re in good hands, this guy knows what he’s doing, genius, etc and that’s when WE said now hold on let’s wait and see, which is normal. But it kept on and finally we said enough because the goons LIKE YOURSELF are just not being honest to themselves or fair to the Minaya era. That’s when we started to defend him.
And it’s NOT Sandy’s team. It should be by now! But it’s not because he’s sat on his God DAMNED hands for so long purposely tanking the last 2 offseasons and this off season as well just getting filler that he thinks he can use some blowhard, arrogant “Theory of Deliberate Practice” in which they think they can water into wine w/these retreads. That’s why it’s not his team and 3 years later it’s still filled with everything Omar Minaya.
Now comes the rationalization that these numbers geeks are so good at. I’m done here.
Let me ask you this, Bayonne … regardless of what anyone cared about back in 2006 or since then, regardless of the presence or lack of saber geeks back then or now … was the 2006 team all Omar’s? Or was it Omar’s, Duquette’s and Phillip’s?
Hi Metro – I agree with you, this is Sandy’s team. Just as when Omar inherited David Wright and Jose Reyes, they were a part of his team.
You can’t do this in sports. You cannot split a team up into regimes, it’s just silly to do that. I’m so tired of this idea that these guys are Omar’s and these guys are Sandy’s. Omar isn’t here. He’s gone. Sandy Alderson is the GM and when he leaves, whoever takes over will be responsible for the team.
They wear the same uniform. Steve Phillips doesn’t get a job well done if Wright hits a game winning HR in game 7 of the world series. He’s gone.
If you get a new boss at work, and your old boss is gone – everything you do isn’t credited to your old boss just because they hired you is it? Of course not.
Ultimately I agree that you can’t play that game. My reasoning is at any point Sandy could have traded any player or released any player that was remaining from the previous regime and many he did.
Yup, Jessep. And it wasn’t just Wright and Reyes whom Omar inherited. He also inherited Glavine and Feliciano. Look at Feliciano’s numbers in 2006 — 60 IP and a 2.09 ERA! And Wright and Reyes both had near career years that season too.
So, nope, Omar goes nowhere in 2006 without Wright, Reyes, Glavine and Feliciano.
I do think in some circumstances it’s OK to credit the previous regime — and that’s in the very early years (year 1 or year 2) of any GM’s tenure and IF that new GM hasn’t turned over the roster much, which was the case when Sandy got to the Mets due to lack of funds., Then it’s OK to give the previous GM credit or blame.
But by now, it’s all Sandy’s team.
Right, I mean where do you draw the line? What if Harvey learned something from Mark Brewer in Buffalo, Alderson promoted Brewer but then you go back to Omar rehiring Brewer in 2010 for AA? What about the instructors?
I mean there is just so much that goes into what a player does on the field that labeling a player 3 years after a GM leaves as “his guy” is just so ridiculous.
From the day you take over the job, it’s your team. Whether you Omar, Sandy, Ruben Amaro or whomever – it doesn’t matter. There aren’t home/road/weekend/Omar/Sandy jerseys
jessep, I can respect your definition, even if it’s a little more strict than mine. I know you’d be consistent in applying it. The problem with the Sandy bashers is they have a double standard.and want things both ways.
None of them will say that the the 2006 team wasn’t all Omar’s. Yet if the Mets do well this year, they will all jump up and down and say it’s part Omar’s team — or worse, the team only did well because of Omar, LOL. And if the team stinks, then they’ll say it’s all because of Sandy!
Well you’re right, I mean look at the idea that Omar gets credit for Wheeler because Omar signed Beltran.
If we’re going to go that route than lets just trace every Mets decision back to the NY Giants and Brooklyn Dodgers leaving town because without them doing so – none of this would be possible.
LOL, yeah, the Beltran/Wheeler spin is really rich. That tops the spin cake!
And Frank Cashen never wins without the inherited Wally Backman, Mookie Wilson and Jesse Orosco nor does he have the resources to trade, IE Mazzilli, Brooks, Allen to get Darling, Terrell(flipped for HoJo), Hernandez or Carter. 1986 never happens without the work of Joe McDonald preceeding Frank Cashen.
Pitchers and Catchers cant come fast enough. 6 more days…
This.
With the Wilpons entrenched as owners Phase 1 completed.
Now is the time to strike the right balance of short term goals (2013) and long term goals (beyond. 2013),
SNY has the equity that could be the conduit to sufficient cash flow which was a problem during the Picard law suit just last year.
2013 can’t be a punt year. Yes: The clock is running.
I like the sentence “the writing should be on the wall”.
Whether the Mets win 73 or 83 games in 2013, I agree that should be the case.
It shouldn´t take sweeping changes to build a team that can realistically be expected to win 85 to 90 games in 2014 and then 90+ games per season from 2015 on.
I believe two big spots for potentially immense gains are the bullpen and outfield.
Even by just improving the situation from abysmal 2012 standards to merely league average, you have the potential of adding roughly 10 wins for your team. If you turn those areas into true assets, even more. That´s where signifiicant improvements figure to come from.
Hi Rob,
“If things work out, the team will find itself searching for the final big piece(s) next winter when Alderson has legitimate financial resources to make it happen. If that’s the case, he will have indeed delivered on his promise to put a playoff contender on the field for the 2014 season”
Not surprised that I disagree with you on that, right? LOL. My reasons are
1) The roster moves were for salary dumping purposes and no different than the drastic cuts made throughout the organization .
2) Any re-building plan also includes a re-stocking plan of minor league talent. Only one team signed less draft picks and we did not sign the number 75 pick in the country because we would not negotiate over $40,000 or so slot money.
3) Even if he has signed more international free agents, why not both? Also, why did he find the Port St. Lucie rookie team so unecessary after 2011 and then found out later his decision was wrong?
4) It is wrong to make the assumption that we will have more money to spend in 2014 due to things being much better off financially because Sandy has lost all credibility on that issue with the public.
- In 2010 Sandy told us the Madoff situation had not affected him in the operation of the Mets
- in 2011 he said he would have more money the following year when relieved with certain contractual obligations
- in 2012 he said he would have made Jose a $100 million offer had there been some vesting options to protect the Mets due to the uncertainty of Jose’s physical condition; OK, that sounds reasonable but since such a deal never materialized, the money he saved was not used for other purposes. If he had the money, why not still use some of it?
- in 2012 he said he was holding back further spending all of the roster money he had to keep it in contingency for the summer
- in the summer of 2012 he said the Mets were buyers
- Sandy said the Jason Bay and Johan Santana’s 2014 buyouts totaling $9 million will be part of 2013 payroll while in actuality those payments will not be made until 2014 anyway.
And why did we need some sort of five-year plan to begin with? That is for teams not willing to spend money.
We know the Giants signed a trio of free agents after the 2006 season which didn’t work out and contribute to the eventual 2010 world series championshiop team. So one should not take notice of the many players the Giants acquired after going 72-90 in 2008? At that time, outside of Lincecum and Cain, their pitching was below average. It was ninth in the league in ERA, ninth in runs allowed and 12th in whip. At the same time, they were 15th in runs scored and 8th in team batting average. And that was accomplished in a division so weak that the division winner won only 84 games and the runner up 82. I would say that after the 2008 season their young nucleus was no better off than ours – in fact, worse. Yes, in 2012 our team ERA was 11th in the league but was sixth in overall runs allowed. At the same time we were 12th in the league in scoring and seventh in team batting average. Nothing to be proud of – but also accomplished against much tougher competition with the division winner winning 98 games and the runner up 94, not like the 72-90 Giants when the best team in their division was only good enough to win 84 games.
Same with the Nationals. After the 2010 season they were still a bad team. Their team was similar to our 2012 Mets – they were eleventh in the league in team ERA, 14th in runs scored and 12 in team batting average. Yes, they had a young team in the making but except for Strausberg their big nucleus of young talent also showed it needed time to develop. But the Nationals didn’t sit still waiting for things to happen, either. They went out and got LaRoche, Werth, Morse and Burnett. They traded good prospects for Geo Gonzalez (not knowing he was using HGH). They also signed Mike Gonzalez for the same amount we paid Francisco. Not all superstars but good players. And with only six moves in total, they went from a bad team not showing big signs of improvement to one that worked itself up to 98 win in two years – and again, did so by not waiting around.
What Sandy professes he is doing is not what most clubs do – and again, I focused specifically on the Giants and Nationals because they were in the same boat we were. They were losing clubs who were building for their future focusing on young arms that indeed had plenty of developing to do. But while those arms were still developing and had not proven themselves yet as a group, that is also when they STARTED to compliment what they saw was a hopeful future.
So what does that say? That there are other practical ways to approach turning a team around with the focus on young players unless one wants to operate like Kansas City, Pittsburgh, San Diego and Oakland (the only team to find success out of these four others)
Joey,
The NATS had new owners looking to make a splash and fill a ballpark with fans. The Mets are not in that position and it seems like the Wilpons do not want to make that splash as they had done that with Minaya and look where it landed us.
The Giants had young pitching and won because of that. I would say that is exactly what Sandy is doing.
Hi David,
Yes, but one needs to dig deeper into those two points:
1) The NATS had new owners looking to make a splash and fill a ballpark with fans. The Mets are not in that position and it seems like the Wilpons do not want to make that splash as they had done that with Minaya and look where it landed us.
- The moves have to be seen in terms of financial priority, just like Kansas City, Pittsburgh, San Diego and Oakland – there was not even a balance between financial and team priority – the entire organization was cut, including money spent on the minor leagues.
2) The Giants had young pitching and won because of that. I would say that is exactly what Sandy is doing.
- Absolutely not. As I showed, the Giants began acquiring the other parts of their rebuilding plan when the talent had yet to been developed. As I wrote
“So one should not take notice of the many players the Giants acquired after going 72-90 in 2008? At that time, outside of Lincecum and Cain, their pitching was below average. It was ninth in the league in ERA, ninth in runs allowed and 12th in whip.”
Again, a losing club building for its future focusing on young arms that indeed had plenty of developing to do. But that is where any resemblance to what Sandy is doing ends. While those arms were still developing and had not proven themselves yet as a group, the Giants had already STARTED to compliment what they saw was a hopeful future and was not discouraged by being burned with Zito.
So as I said the other day, wouldn’t the Mets if they sign complementary pieces next off-season be following the Giants plan more so than if they did it this off-season?
Hi TRS,
Nope, that is not the same.
In 2008, their young club was was still just potential and nothing more. But the Giants didn’t wait for the pitching staff to develop to then start going after the other remaining pieces. They went after the missing parts as the kids were still learning. This way both jived together.
San Francisco’s 2009 could have been our 2012 or 2013 had Sandy indeed been “following the Giants plan more”.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SFG/2008.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SFG/2009.shtml
.
Joey – I’m not exactly sure I get what you’re trying to prove with the 08 to 09 Giants?
The major differences between 09 and 08 were
Ishikawa came up from the minors to play 1B
Burris became their starting 2B from the minors and lost his job to the $1mil signing of Uribe
They signed Renteria
They signed 45 year old Randy Johnson
Brought in low risk Bob Howry and Jeremy Affeldt
I mean, Renteria was nice and obviously paid off as did Affeldt but I still do not get what you’re trying to say about 08/09? SF didn’t make drastic moves…
I am confused too. The way I am reading it if you are comparing what we have now to the Giants then you would have to go back to 2007 with Lincy just coming in and Cain still being a newbie.
The 2008 Giant starting lineup was entirely different from the 2010 starting lineup that won it all. I guess he doesn’t realize that their big free agent signings Aaron Rowand sucked so bad he became a defensive replacement in the postseason. That was an absolute dreadful signing. Barry Zito another horrible contract that SF wished they got out from under depite his 2 good postseason starts this year. He was so bad they left him off the postseason roster in 2010. But according to Joey at least it showed they tried. As if the Mets front office aren’t trying to figure out a way to improve the team. The same person who said he would’ve rather have let Beltran walk for nothing even if it meant only a 500 finish.
I am talking about METHODOLOGY. The Giants did not wait until their youngsters developed further. They started trying to put the pieces together since the end of the 2006 season when Cain and Wilson first came up. They did not let their early failure discourage them and continued making pieces fit together. Five of their eight position players from that 2010 team came from the outside with four of them acquired no later than 2008.
Again, I am talking about strategy. They did not wait until Cain, Lincecum and others had already developed. Some teams are successful while others aren’t.
Joey – I’m sorry but I think you’re totally confused here
“I am talking about METHODOLOGY. The Giants did not wait until their youngsters developed further. They started trying to put the pieces together since the end of the 2006 season when Cain and Wilson first came up.”
Yeah – and they failed. I mean their 07 and 08 seasons were WORSE than their 06. Why are you using that as a blueprint?
“Five of their eight position players from that 2010 team came from the outside with four of them acquired no later than 2008.”
Freddy Sanchez – Acquired at trade deadline in 2009
Andres Torres – Signed as a free agent in 2009
Buster Posey – Drafted in 2008
Juan Uribe – Signed in 2009
Aubrey Huff – Signed in 2010
Edgar Renteria – Signed prior to 09 season
Cody Ross – Claimed off waivers in 2010
Patt Burrell – Signed in May 2010
So I am sorry Joey but your statements are not factual. These 8 players were their starters when they won the World Series. So I’m not sure where you’re getting your facts but you need to check them
“So I am sorry Joey but your statements are not factual”
Like night follows day!
HI Jessep,
My statement was indeed factual. I said FOUR of their regulars were acquired after 2008 when they were 72-90 and their pitching was still developing and thus nobody knew how they would still be in the future. It was 9th in ERA and 12th in WHIP which was my point.
Aaron Rowand was signed as a free agent prior to the 2008 season
Jose Uribie (1/2 of their shortstop platoon) was signed as a free agent prior to the 2009 season
Edgar Rebterua (the other half of their shortstop platoon) was signed as a free agent prior to the 2009 season.
Andrew Torres was signed as a free agent prior to the 2009 season
I did not include Freddie Sanchez because was indeed acquired at the trade deadline and Huff because he came after 2009, Burrell and Molina along with there number three starter, Zito.
These regulars accounted for the extra runs that pitching needed.
Joey you said “four of them acquired no later than 2008.” acquired no later than 2008 means pre-2008 not post-2008 so if you meant after 2008 that’s fine… it’s just not what you said and still doesn’t really prove any point
Is your point the Mets 2013 are where the Giants were in 2009? Is that what you are trying to say?
Aaron Rowand started 3 games in the entire 2010 postseason. Bragging about his acquisition is something you’d get laughed at in San Fran for
Hi Jessep,
Those four players were acquired after the team went 72-90 in 2008. The young pitching staff had yet to reach fruition. Nobody had a crystal ball to predict the future.
We now have a young rotation and three-fourths of a young infield in place, along with a promising backstop. The kids showed great promise in 2011 and 2012 without the help of the front office. I’ve already showed the similarities with the Giants as far as that young pitching staff had developed through 2008. Their run scoring was even worse than us. And they managed to only win 72 games against a team where the division winner won only 84, hence they could not even take advantage of weak competition to puff up their record more – just like so many of us agreed the Mets would probably have had better records had they been in another division as well.
So it is quite fair to compare the situation the Giants found themselves after 2007 and 2008 to our own situation in 2011 and 2012 . The Giants didn’t stand still and did nothing. That is why everything came together so quickly. Same with Washington. Same with Cincinnati. Same with Detroit. And except for Washington, which might or might not be at the start of a good run, all the others have had a number of good seasons of late and are not showing signs of aging.
Joey – okay you’re just all over the place. Let’s stop going in circles.
Let me put it to you like this
2013 Mets with Harvey and Wheeler – what year are you comparing that to in regards to the SF Giants with Lincecum and Cain?
Because if it’s any time after 2006 – the comparison makes no sense
Joey – okay you’re just all over the place. Let’s stop going in circles.
Aren’t you used to it though.
Joey, you are just seeing what you want to see. Why didn’t the Giants make those moves in 2007 when Cain was already there and Lincy was in Wheeler’s spot? They waited until they believed those guys were ready.
Hi TR,
I think it is more the other way around for I specifically mentioned those prior years in an earlier post as well. Remember despite not being good free agent signings I wanted to make a point that the Giants were not just waiting around for something to happen with their young prospects to deveop?
After the 2006 season they signed Zito (eight-year deal – $10 million that first season), Molina (three-year deal – $4 million that first season) and Aurilia (three-year deal – $3.5 million that first season) while that year Matt Cain sported an ERA of 4.15 in 31 starts and Brian Wilson a 5.40 ERA in 31 appearances. That’s $17.5 million or close to $20 million in terms of 2013.
After 2007 they signed Rowand (five-year deal – $9.6 million that first season) while that year in 24 starts the rookie Lincecum had an ERA of 4.00. That’s a little over $10.6 million in terms of 2013.
Of course, the salaries were higher the second years of each of those contracts, etc.
But Joey – aren’t you just proving your point to be invalid? If you’re bragging about the Giants signing Rowand – then I’m sorry but you clearly are missing some key details…
Hi Jessep,
Notice I am not passing judgement on the merits of those signings but rather the path the Giants took during the time their young nucleus was still deemed developing. Had they waited they would not have been the world series champions in 2010 for their hitting improved just enough going from 13th to 9th to let their pitching carry them on their shoulders. As I had mentioned a few days ago, in 2009 they outscored their opponents by just 46 runs. In 2010, that more than doubled to 114.
But Joey – I do not think you realize that in trying to give praise to the path they chose you’re actually doing the opposite.
I mean to be honest I don’t even understand your point… Cain pitched in over 100 starts before the 09 season, Lincecum won 18 games in 2008…why are you comparing them both to Harvey and Wheeler now? I just cannot understand that to be honest.
If anything wouldn’t the 06 or 07 season be more comparable to Harvey/Wheeler?
In terms of offense, the Giants won in 2010 because of Posey, Huff, Sandoval, Torres (yes Torres), and Renteria along with 2 solid SP’s and a very, VERY good bullpen.
Lincecum was just about to crack 100 starts by 2010. Cain had 137 before 2010…. Wheeler has 0 and Harvey has what 10?
So I’m sorry but I do not get your point and I think you’re stretching a lot if you’re gonna try to tell me Harvey/Wheeler 2013 are where Lincecum/Cain were in 2009 or 2010
That’s a crock to say they wouldn’t have won in 2010 had they waited. They still would’ve won the WS without those 2 big free agents they signed. One was left off the roster and the other was replaced midseason because he was awful. They won on the strength of that great pitching staff and timely hitting.
And how many starts did Pettite have in the Yankee example you seem to think is the same as what we are doing?
“So I’m sorry but I do not get your point and I think you’re stretching a lot ”
THIS! As usual.
Joey D is talking about the Giants ATTEMPT at surrounding their young staff with quality players from outside the organization. Whether every single move worked or not is besides the point.
The Giants signed players, some worked, some did not work.
We have a YOUNG staff…which already includes a young pitcher coming up on 100 starts in Niese…
Niese has had to pitch on teams with poor infield defense, no outfield defense, poor catching, poor run support.
and aside from Buck and possibly a healthy Travis, absolutely little effort has been made to rectify those issues in 2014.
this is where the whole 11th pick vs a good defensive CF debate really displays the lack of logic on met fans.
A CF playing in 150 games will have more of an affect on our young players at LF -RF – SS and 2B.
Having a poor up the middle defense is crippling for any team. The fact that you would even entertain the notion that an 11th pick in a WEAK draft has more value than a good defensive CF shows that you are willfully ignorant.
If you had the chance to trade Brandon Neemo or Cecchini for Michael Bourn you would do it in a heartbeat.
and if Sandy is that good, he can make up for it with his super sabermetrical skills later in the draft.
“The fact that you would even entertain the notion that an 11th pick in a WEAK draft has more value than a good defensive CF shows that you are willfully ignorant.”
You make it sound like if the Mets don’t sign Bourn, they will play with six guys behind the pitcher. That is willfully ignorant. Kirk is a very good defensive center fielder and MDD is supposedly even better. You also make it sound like being a good defensive CF makes up for lots of other faults. You pay no attention to offensive issues, age concerns and salary demands. That is willfully ignorant.
If a good defensive center fielder is the only qualification, why is this even a discussion? The Mets already have two.
How much did the Mets spend on FA last year? Close to that amount, doesn’t make them good signings.
All you’re doing Joey is showing how it’s smart NOT to make moves for the sake of trying. Those contracts were horrible.
So you think they win the WS without those guys? Really they had ZERO contribution to thier WS?
They didn’t stand still.
Hard to contribute to a WS title when on is off the roster and the other is on the bench. 186 million for 2 statues is not what I want on my team.
Sorry to break this to you but Molina, Zito, Cain and Wilson were all on the roster and playing for them when they won thier first World Series….
But nice try and trying to slant this to just last year’s win….
Sorry but you FAILED in your attempt to fool us
Cain and Wilson were drafted by SF. Molina was on Texas’ roster during the WS after SF dumped him during the season and Zito was left off the roster and did not make a postseason appearance in 2010. So you basically broke nothing but nonsense, half of which (Cain and Wilson) had nothing to do with the point.
Metsie: “Sorry to break this to you but Molina, Zito, Cain and Wilson were all on the roster and playing for them when they won thier first World Series…”
Sorry to break it to you Metsie but Bengie Molina was traded off the 2010 Giants in July of 2010 because they had Buster Posey and Barry Zito wasn’t even on the 2010 playoff roster.
Tell me again how Molina was on the Giants roster when they won the WS while he was simultaneously catching the Texas Rangers’ pitches?
And so becse he was traded BEFORE they got to the WS he had NO CONTRIBUTION during the time he WAS there right?
Please….You guys need to grasp straws just to snort down whatever drug it is that you guys keep taking to come up with these useless semantical issues you think will fly!
If they don’t win the 7 games Zito wins do they even make the playoffs?
You guys are focusing too much on who they signed instead of why they signed these guys and that’s Joey’s point.
When you look at teams like the 90′s Braves or The Giant’s that Joey mentioned, they built the foundation with youth while putting complimentary pieces around them and when they thought they were close pulled the trigger on higher ticket items to get over the hump. Then you got teams that just keep acquiring youth and don’t add any complimentary pieces and if something happens then maybe a risk will be taken.
The Mets are not operating like a team that has any leverage financially, which they should be now. They are acting like a small market team that has no resources that are only willing to take a chance if they are certain they should. There is still a chance for success with both paths but the latter hos a smaller window of opportunity.
THANK YOU Gary!
Joey D. February 5, 2013 at 3:27 pm
They didn’t stand still.
Given the results of those acquisitions, they probably should have.
“If they don’t win the 7 games Zito wins do they even make the playoffs?”
Yes they do because Zito lost 14 games so they would’ve had an even better record without him and Benji Molina was in 2010 for SF what Mike Nikeas was for us last year which is why he got the heave ho.
Until you can ove they had someone else qwho would win 7 games without losing 14 your just playing fantasy games here…
Point is he WON 7 games….
Thats 7 games that would have to made up by someone else….
Until you can prove that someone else would have done that (Impossible) then Zito CONTRIBUTED to that World Series!
Hi Salty,
THANK YOU TOO!
Exactly my point. They were trying to build from within with support from the outside.
The Giants, the Nationals and the Reds all followed this pattern. Oakland didn’t and neither did the Rays. But we have also seen perennial losers like Kansas City, most teams that turn things around after years of being below .500 do so by going into the free agent market and/or trading some prospects along with allowing their young team to develop.
If one wants to look at the franchise that really turned itself around, one need go no further than the Tigers. They were a pathetic organization for years before things got so low that they almost eclipsed our 1962 record of futility in 2003. By that time, however, the team had many promising youngsters but obviously nowhere ready for prime time and though they showed improvement each of the next two seasons they still could only win 72 and 71 games respectively. No, even after 2005 the nucleus was not deemed developed.
But look what happened after 2003 – they signed Ivan Rodriguez and took over Carlos Guillen’s salary from Seattle for a trade that included one who never played a game in the majors and a journeyman. The following season they signed Magglio Ordenez. Those were THREE BIG BATS they went after instead of waiting for a five-year plan.
And those were mostly all they got from the outside of note and one or two more base hits that year and all three would have been .300 hitters. Of course, as the kids began to really develop they had that deadly trio of hitters there to compliment them.
And the Tigers have been a competitive club ever since, finishing below .500 just once in the six years that followed.
So Sandy Alderson is following a route not taken by most who wanted to get themselves back into the game. And that is why many of us suspect it has somewhat to do with getting the Mets back on top but a lot more to do with keeping the Wilpons as the men on top.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/DET/
Yeah that would be tough to replace a 14 game loser. One in which was left off the postseason roster. They replaced him for the postseason and won it all that’s my proof. They won it all without him and would’ve been a better team without him. All he had to do is ask Omar for a 14 game loser to replace him but he didn’t need to cause he won it all. So much for breaking the guys you thought were on the postseason roster. Why you would bring up 2 homegrown pitchers is a discussion for another day.
Not surprised by your love of Zito though. You love anytthing with a large salary and losing records. That’s why you cry over a 70 and 79 win team being broken up. I hope you DVR’d those games.
Metsie: If you’re going to try and call somebody out for their use of the word “alter” and go so far as to quote the dictionary then I am sorry but you cannot say
“Sorry to break this to you but Molina, Zito, Cain and Wilson were all on the roster and playing for them when they won thier first World Series…” and expect to get credit for it
Because the fact is both Molina and Zito were NOT on their roster playing for them when they won the World Series. You wanted to give sass and instead you got your facts wrong so please don’t try to cover it up by saying things like
“Thats 7 games that would have to made up by someone else….Until you can prove that someone else would have done that (Impossible) then Zito CONTRIBUTED to that World Series!” or that Molina “contributed” to the World Series. He contributed by being traded away so Posey could play. You messed up, just move on – don’t try to turn it into another argument
‘And that is why many of us suspect it has somewhat to do with getting the Mets back on top but a lot more to do with keeping the Wilpons as the men on top.’
Bingo, Joey D.
Yeah like when you said K-Rod never throws curve balls or change ups. NEWSFLASH! He does!
“Point is he WON 7 games….
Thats 7 games that would have to made up by someone else….”
Dillon Gee won 6 games in half of a season.
In 2010, Bruce Chen won 12 games for the Royals.
the fact is, those 7 games, and probably more, could have been made up by anyone else.
Hey Fonzie name him with your PROOF tht he would have won 7 games or just shut it with your DANALESQUE attempts to get out from your predicament by denying a FACT with nothing to back it up!
Point is you thought you would get away with saying those guys did not contribute and they DID!
Maybe if you checked your alleged FACTS and responses ahead of time you and he would not have to spend all say trying to prove points you don’t have and can’t back up with your own data….
And Jessup to say they had NOTHING to do with thier WS is just as bad!
But you guys sure tried didn’t you?
Don’t like it when we use your own sematics against you do you?
Face it you all walked face first into that wall because Joey has a point you guys can’t counter, can’t live with and hurts your NEWEST fantasy that we are following the Giants model now aftyer the Phillies, Braves and Yankee models you guys USED to cite has been debunked…..
hahaha Typical Fonzie….Runs off topic when he gets his a$$ thrown into a fryer and he gets caught being wrong!
PROVE IT DONAL!
PROVE IT!
Zero contributions?
Molina had mentored that young staff for the previous 2 years and also mentored their young catcher, Buster Posey.
It was only AFTER Buster was ready to take over that Molina was redundant and they could trade him.
But of course, mentoring a young staff and catcher dont show up in a stat sheet…so does it really exist ?
I love how JoeyD’s comparison of the Tigers and how they rebuilt their team completely got lost in this shuffle…
not one member of the Firm wants to touch that with a 10 foot pole…
The Giants traded Zach Wheeler for Carlos Beltran…
the trade didnt work out…as they didnt make the playoffs…
so they came right back to the mets and traded for another OF…
the fact that they are not scared to make moves that might bring heavy criticism has enabled them to win 2 WS
the same mentality that enabled them to sign rowand and zito and trade for beltran, also got them pat burrell, edgar renteria, freddie sanchez.
the giants are aggressive. the idea that they just waited for the young talent to develop is a farce.
we are doing NOTHING to help our young pitching.
we had the worst defensive LF – C – and 2B all on the field at the same damn time.
Sandy as a GM seems to be obsessed with OBP and little else besides payroll…
rumors of his expertise have been greatly exaggerated
Yup they got contributions from low risk signings and got jack squat out of their big splash FA signings.
Harvey made 10 starts and Wheeler has made none, d’Anaud has made none and we’re comparing the Giants situation to the Mets?
Lincecum 24 starts in 07 and Cain 32. Sanchez 29 starts in 08. Our young 3 starters have 10 starts between them to date. SF also had an entirely different lineup in 08 from 2010.
You guys are comparing a Benz to a Yugo/
somewhere between low risk and high risk is something in the middle…
The mets ALREADY had Niese developing…and in the midst of him developing, they started to tear apart the team…
thats something that Cain and Lincecum and Jonathan Sanchez and Brian Wilson never had to deal with.
Your willful ignorance to this doesnt change that fact either
Putting Dan Murphy at 2B with Duda in RF and Thole at Catcher with no cheap low risk vet to even mentor him is NOT investing in a rebuilding team.
its being cheap, not efficient, and certainly not effective.
The fact that Sandy even dropped a lil hint by saying he never would’ve released Bay had Bay not agreed to deferring salary.
Why would Sandy voluntarily release that ?
What purpose does that serve ?
He could’ve just released him and let the good press roll in…
the fact that he said the ONLY reason he was doing this was NOT because of performance…but because Bay was deferring salary….
had Bay not approached the mets with this, Sandy still would’ve opted to keep Bay….and by keeping Bay I mean Sandy would’ve kept Duda in RF…
the giants dont operate like that.
thats why they advanced the way they did.
marinate on that
The Mets resigned David Wright
Benjie signed for 5+ mil a year
They contributed absloutely nothing. Zito lost more games than he won and watched the entire postseason with splinters in his ass. Molina was contributing to Texas and Rowand was so bad during the year they had to go out and get Pat Burrell who was being released by Tampa and Cody Ross. BTW the Giants ate Rowands final year of his contract for all his WS contributions.
Now if you said Ross and Burrell contributed then you would’ve been accurate but by being caught off guard cause you had no idea Molina was playing against the Giants in the WS and you had no idea that Zito was off the playoff roster after losing 14 games during the season and you had no idea that Wilson and Cain were homegrown or else you wouldn’t have even mentioned them in this context.
So again Metsie jumps into another debate without a single fact and to cover his ass for looking like a fool he tries to say a 9-14 pitcher who was paid 126 million and left off the roster in the postseason helped his team get into the playoffs. ROTFLMAO…… Not to mention he finished the season 4 W and 14 L. They won inspite of those bums.
BTW Joey’s point hurt his argument and makes Sandy’s decision to not make a move for the sake of a move even smarter. His argument that says it showed the Giants were at least trying depite the fact that those signings were a non factor when they won it all.
Zero contributions?
Molina had mentored that young staff for the previous 2 years and also mentored their young catcher, Buster Posey.
It was only AFTER Buster was ready to take over that Molina was redundant and they could trade him.
But of course, mentoring a young staff and catcher dont show up in a stat sheet…so does it really exist ?
Bochy said by easing Posey in and having veteran Bengie Molina continue to mentor the young staff, the timing was right when he took over the role upon Molina’s trade to Texas on July 1.
“Sometimes it takes time, but going back to last year, this spring, he caught all these guys, so he knew them,” Bochy said. “They knew him, and what they’re about, so it made that transition a lot easier with the last year and a half doing some work with these guys.”
Not saying Thole = Buster…but having Mike Nikeaus and Josh Thole mentor a staff with 3 young pitchers on it is not exactly like having a veteran catcher like Benjie Molina.
We are following the Royals/Pirates blue-print…with the exception of resigning David Wright to a 8 year 138 mil contract
I didn’t say Molina didn’t make any contribution before 2010 I said he made none in 2010. He was horrible in 2010 or else they would’ve kept him as Posey’s backup with all of his experience.
again, you are looking purely at a stat sheet.
Posey came up in 2010…who do you think he learned from in 2009 and for 7 months in 2010?
How do you think it was seamless for Posey’s to transition into the starting catcher…who do you think taught him all the nuances of each starting pitcher…the umpires…the batters….the relief pitchers…all these things Posey and Bochy have credited Molina with.
In terms of Mentors…Thole went from platooning with Ronnie Paulino, an all-hit no defense 28 year old former PED user fighting for playing time..and Mike Nikeaus…a younger no-hit decent defense catcher…
compare those with a Gold Glove winner like Molina
that cost 5.5 mil per year for 3 years 7 years ago…
right now in 2013, ..that would be the biggest free-agent contract Sandy would’ve gave to anyone
so what u call low risk and what Sandy calls low-risk are obviously 2 different things
You’re all crazy. Sandy inherited a mess of losing players who couldn’t get it done in the big games. It’s been two bad years but there wasn’t much talent he inherited and he has done more than anyone in a while to develop big time prospects who will actually make an impact.
Yes, it’s a big market team, but we all know about Madoff and the impact that has had on his flexibility. For the first time in a long time we actually have someone who is professional, talented and has a proven track record of success. So we should dump him now because his plan hasn’t fully gotten off the ground first?
Only Mets fans would want to kick out the one guy who might actually build our franchise for lasting success.
sorry..who has he developed? and what is his track rcord of success minus the steriod A’s?
and didnt we just hand 140 million to one of those losing ballpalyers from the previous years?
I am waiting for Wheeler, D’Arnaud and Snydaargard. I would say a year or two (Snydergaard) at most for all of them to be up. If they perform and the team wins he will be a legend. It’s too early in the process to fire him now. The Mets farm system was a joke before he took over and now it’s 14. I know no one has done much of anything yet, but Harvey has so far lived up to the hype and they say Wheeler is even better. Harvey is Manaya’s guy, but I am using him as a reference to our prospects living up to the hype.
Look at the Yankees even they are shedding payroll and they aren’t losing money! Wilpons just paid 300 million toward the Madoff settlement out and they are burning through cash with the Mets. They won’t spend the money no matter what Sandy says they tell him.
I just don’t see what people expect him to do? You know they have limited funds and they aren’t going to dig deep to spend besides Wright. Wright was money they had to spend to keep from full blown rebellion.
In sports as in the economy after a boom there is usually a bust. We’re drying to build a more stable portfolio. Better to do it slowly and correctly than rush and mess it up.
In short, it’s important for Sandy (and the organization) that 2013 is a season in which the team performs better in the 2nd half of the season than it does in the 1st half. That would obviously be the opposite of recent seasons, and would demonstrate that Sandy’s changes have started to take positive effect.
Or that the players from Minaya’s regime start to blossom. Guess you forgot about Ike Davis, Ruben Tejada, Lucas Duda, MATT HARVEY, Jon Niese, Bobby Parnell, Capt. Kirk, Jordanny Valdespin, etc.
Guess you forgot a little something.
Fair point. Nine years after Omar began drafting players for the organization it would be nice if they started to blossom.
Just in time to help give your Lord a good name, right? But you may have a point, i only wish a few more developed earlier while he was still here because your Lord would not be here now.
If pigs could fly Omar would be here. Facts are facts. They didn’t.
9 years ?
Ruben Tejada was signed at age 16…debuted at age 19…( or the same age as FindingNeemo + Cecchini are now)
Ike was drafted in 2008….debuted in 2010…placed in the top 5 ROY voting…
Harvey, drafted in 2010, debuted in 2012, looks to be pretty damn good…
Most folks are giving Neemo a good 5 years before he comes up…
even on draft picks and IFA, the bar is so dramatically different for Sandy than it has been for any other GM in Met history.
With any other GM, the fans showed no patience whatsoever…in 2009, when F-Mart came up short in his age 19 year ( remember the same age as Mr. Finding Neemo ), folks called him a bust.
Now folks give Sandy and his draft picks enough rope to climb down the statue of liberty with…
its either one extreme or the other….
I was very happy with the first half of Omar Minaya’s tenure and very disappointed with the second half. He had six full seasons in charge. Sandy Alderson is about to enter year three of his tenure.
It’s obvious that the major league product Sandy has put on the field thus far has been nothing but a failure. It’s also quite obvious that Omar Minaya and Sandy Alderson have gone about constructing their major league rosters in drastically different ways. One had the benefit of Bernie Madoff’s ponzi scheme, the other, sadly, did not.
Because of the obvious differences in the ways they have gone about constructing their major league rosters, and because of the fact that Omar Minaya had the benefit of six years to do his job, I believe Sandy Alderson should at the very least be allowed the courtesy of half that amount of time before he is run out of town by an impatient segment of the fanbase.
Other than that, I’m not interested in getting involved in a ridiculous “Omar versus Sandy” internet battle.
You dont want to get into a Omar vs Sandy debate…so what was the point of saying this again?
“Nine years after Omar began drafting players for the organization it would be nice if they started to blossom.”
I think Niese, Tejada, Ike, and Murph are blossoming…
again…sweeten it up…make it sound nice…but there is a different standard that Sandy is held to
for all his expertise, i wouldnt think he would need the bar lowered
This bears repeating — in 15 seasons with the A’s, Sandy Alderson had 5 winning seasons and won 90 plus 4 times. His tenure at San Diego was unremarkable either way. His track record in talent evaulation is middle of the pack.
People hope upon hope that Sandy Alderson is Frank Cashen redux. In Frank Cashen’s 11 years with the Orioles, they had 10 winning seasons (including 2 WS and 4 AL crowns) and won 90 plus 9 times. There is no comparison, Frank Cashen was a much, much better GM than Alderson.
And you know what, Frank Cashen’s Mets won a single World Series that they were lucky to win. So perhaps this is all a matter of tempering expectations a bit going forward. I think a fair evaluation period is 5 years so Sandy has two more after this, but don’t expect 90 plus wins starting in 2014.
What did Omar’s spending get the Mets? The first division title in 19 seasons (two seasons after consecutive 90 loss seasons) and a three year window where the team mattered in this town. The Mets had a new network to promote and a new stadium and the fact they drew 4 million fans in 2008 was no small accomplishment.
Alderson is GM and at the end of the day that is all that matters. But people are going to bristle when others act like Sandy Alderson is anything other than a mediocre general manager with an almost pathological inability to give a straight answer during a press conference.
You do realize Cashen wasn’t the GM of the O’s until 1972-1975. Harry Dalton was the GM when they won their titles. Cashen was the President.
And take a look back at the players drafted and IFA’s signed when he was GM of Oakland. His farm system produced far better talent there than anything the Mets have. Billy Beane had a book written about him with Aldersons players.
Cashen ran the team for those ten years and Dalton reported to him. And after Cashen left in ’75, team was very good for another 8 years.
Alderson’s big items were McGwire, Tejada, Giambi, Ben Grieve and Walt Weissand Tim Hudson. Canseco came before and Zito and Mulder came after. It’s a mediocre record given the A’s draft position for most of those years.
The Alderson players on the Beane teams were Hudson, Hernandez, Chavez (10th pick in the draft) and Miguel Tejada.
Yeah Harry Dalton reported to Cashen, no question but Dalton was the one making personnel decisions. Lee McPhail was the GM with Dalton as the farm director and they were the ones that put together the early 60′s O’s that won it all in 66, Cashen’s first year as President. That team was already winning before Cashen even got there. Cashen ran the team but it was Dalton that handled the player personnel. If Cashen was the GM during their winning years he’s be in the Hall of fame. That’s why his bio says hhe was the architect of the NY Mets 86 title team and an Executive while the O’s won their 2 titles.
And I have no idea how you can call that a mediocre draft record. He had a top 10 pick 5 times in 15 years. It wasn’t like he had 3 or 4 straight years drafting top 5. You’re also leaving Giambi off of Beane’s teams. You’re also forgetting Steinbach, Tapani, Rod Beck, Byrnes, Brosius, Spiezio and a few pretty good relievers. I wish the Mets were that mediocre the last 20 years.
Fonzie:
If you compare the Mets and A’s draft records from 1983-1997, you will find the A’s had 110 players drafted that made the Majors and had a combined WAR of 427. During that same time period the Mets had 121 players drafted that made the Majors and had a combined WAR of 502.6.
Old School, you’re adding up the WAR figures for players the Mets drafted but did not sign. That’s totally misleading and dishonest.
You’re adding up players like John Wetteland, Matt Williams, John Olerud, Darin Estad, Mark Grudzielanek, Scott Ericson, Todd Jones, Rick Helling, David DeJesus, Darren Dreifort, Billy Koch, Aaron Rowand, Jeremy Guthrie and Garrett Atkns. You can’t count the WAR of players that were never in the Mets farm system. They never signed with the Mets.
Theses are the players they did sign. AJ Burnett, Jay Payton, Terrence Long, Preston Wilson, Benny Agbayani, Jason Isrinhausen, Bobby Jones, Jeromy Burnitz, Fernando Vina, Todd Hunley, Pete Walker, Pete Schourek, Anthony Young, Gregg Jeffries, Rick Aguilera, Dave Magadan and Jeff innins. Compare that to the A’s names I posted that did sign and come through their system and there’s no comparison. Had the Mets been able to sign the majority of those guys then we wouldn’t have had so many losing seasons over the past 22 seasons.
UNDENIABLE ===> “This bears repeating — in 15 seasons with the A’s, Sandy Alderson had 5 winning seasons and won 90 plus 4 times. His tenure at San Diego was unremarkable either way.”
The clock isn’t ticking at all. If you want Sandy gone, the only clock that matters is Bud as GM, as Sandy would love that chair. If you want Sandy to stay, then you haven’t even started your clock, and won’t until 2014 apparently.
The Mets needed creativity and proactivity to rebuild this team and franchise, and it could’ve made even bigger strides this offseason. In September, I was saying, they had to blow this thing up. Trade Dickey for a package around d’Arnaud (people laughed at me and called me cray cray), and then trade Wright (for best available package). The money saved for Wright and Dickey could’ve been used to bring in two starting caliber OF (if one didn’t come back in the Wright trade). Is Wright replaceable, maybe not in 2013, but certainly in the future. One of the prospect he brought back, or Murphy, Lutz, or Satin (at 3B) and Valdespin or Murphy (at 2B) in 2013, plus Flores in 2014 and beyond would be just fine going forward.
The bullpen approach has been solid, but it’d be nice to add 1-2 more high risk/high reward guys. This Mets team could’ve been better in 2013, and even better and with a younger and better core in 2014, and with less holes. But instead, we have a team that looks to be capable of winning 73 games max. We have a partial tear down and a shot in the dark and throw it at the wall and hope it sticks future…but the peeps call it progress. Good luck progressing past the Nats and Braves in 2014…or whenever your clock starts. At least I have the kids in A ball.
***Bud as Commish and Ruler of all the World, obviously. Him as GM of anything…ouch.
Sandy Alderson is a very impressive person. Obviously smart and professional. His actual baseball track record is middle of the road. The cynic could point only to the steroid nation in Oakland circa late 80′s as his only true successes. He was much less effective in San Diego. We won’t know for several years whether he was effective in NY. Articles about ” this is the right way to build a bullpen” are just a waste of time. I read the same things last year in regard to improving the bullpen. Just this year we are paying less for the inferior talent we are bringing in.
To date the draft can’t be judged other than Nimmo looks to be a project at best. Maybe he found lightning in a bottle with some of the lower picks. If D’arnaud becomes an all star or wheeler proves worthy of the ridiculous hype and they lead the Mets for years to come , Sandy can take a bow.
For now he is the architect of a fourth place team with lots of holes. He is the owner of this situation and that is the only answer. Where we are in three years will give us a better idea of how he is doing or did shall he be gone. Lets not make him the savior…. He is not. We still collapse every second half. The same collapses that cost Terry Collins predecessors their jobs. Collins bar is low so he is still here.
If his acquisitions fail and Reyes, Dickey and Beltran continue to prosper Sandy will not be taking any bows and will be fired just as his predessors were eventually
Everyone can play thier little semantical games and twisting propaganda statements all they want but there is one TRUTH at the end of ALL OF IT….
This team has won FEWER GAMES than it did when all of this “IMPROVEMENT” has allegedly happened…..
WHich means all this IMPROVMENT and such that is citred is nothing more than a HOPE and a PRAYER and has NO BASIS IN THE FACTS!
This team is WORSE than the one Sandy took over…..
Until such time as guys like Wheeler and D’Arnaud change that reality, anyone who says this team is better now is just spouting a big pile of STINKING BULL####!
I’m willing to give him a couple more years. Once these bad contracts are gone and he’s had four or five drafts, then let’s reevaluate.
Its just too early. Sandy came in right after Madoff and we all know the after-effects of that.
He’s made two outstanding trades with Beltran and Dickey. He’s made some smaller trades that were complete bombs and he’s had a very questionable track record of signing relievers. His drafts seem like a mixed bag. Just tonight Jason Parks said everything he hears on Nimmo is that he’s a “tweener” – he’ll probably be a major leaguer, but not a really good one. So, they probably bombed on that pick. (Just as many of us figured). Cechinni, who knows yet. He’s had some good picks with Fulmer, Pawlecki, Logan Taylor and Phillip Evans.
Still, I believe, to quote Dayton Moore, we need to trust the process.
Well, some are giving me a lot of flack because of the comparison to the 2007/2008 Giants and it again seems to be a split between those who think Sandy is on the right path and those who think he isn’t. No surprise.
But what is surprising is the sudden down play of our young pitching staff, the one Sandy is being praised for building a young team around, the staff as described by Rob ” Jonathon Niese, Matt Harvey and Zack Wheeler lead a plethora of impressive young arms that stretch deep into the team’s farm system”.
All of a sudden one cannot compare out pitching potential to that the Giants in 2008?.
No, what we can’t do is to compare the progress of any two of our pitchers to Linsicum and Cain at that point. And that is it. Despite a great performance in 2008 by Linsicum and a good one from Cain, the Giants HAD LITTLE ELSE GOING FOR THEM AS FAR AS THE YOUNG PITCHING STAFF THAT TWO YEARS LATER WOULD CARRY THEM INTO THE WORLD SERIES. In 2008 their three other starters all had ERAS above five. They had a closer in Wilson with an ERA of 4.6. So even with Linsecum and Cain they still finished ninth in the league with an aggregate team ERA of 4.38.
Linsecum and Cain were all they had going for them as far young pitching showing signs of maturing. Not so with ours. The Met rotation is loaded with more good arms than the Giants had progressing in 2008. That is why one cannot make an argument by pointing to Linsicum and Cain and stopping there. Two pitchers do not make a rotation. I would rather have five dependable starters than two great ones and three stiffs any day.
Another point is about not doing anything regarding the Mets hitting. Remember the many great pitching performances we got in the second half last year but lost by scores of 2-1, 3-2, etc? After 2008 if the Giants didn’t act upon getting the many position players they did just so they could score enough runs to accompany that pitching staff , the efforts of Linsicum, Cain and others would have been wasted just like ours were the second half of the year when the bats went cold.
So one must look at the whole and not just two starting pitchers. We had a great pitching staff throughout the early seventies and yet never had a season in which we mustered more than 83 wins. Even without Harvey, I don’t think there is anyone here not excited about what the future of our young pitching staff might hold in store for us. However, that is not enough. Again, the problem is that without the hitting to back them up, that staff is going to be wasted.
Still want to say we are not in the same position the Giants were when they were adding to their club from the outside instead of standing still? None of those were superstars yet together they were able to blend in as a team and produced the necessary hitting to support their young pitchers.
Joey Joey Joey!
For crying out loud, nobody is saying you can’t compare the Mets to the Giants. We are just saying you’re choosing the wrong years!
Matt Harvey has 10 major league appearances
Zach Wheeler has 0
Thru 07 (we seem to keep going back?) Cain had 70 starts and Lincecum was coming up.
You are pushing the time table back though.
If you want to compare the Mets to the Giants and the Harvey/Wheeler situation to Cain/Lincecum then you need to start pre 06. Which means you’re conceding it will take another 3-4 years before the Mets should do what the Giants
You’re just messing up your times and your facts and it’s making for a weak argument. By the time the Giants championship starting lineup were in Giants uni’s, Cain was over 100 starts and Lincecum was close. Harvey and Wheeler are nowhere near that point.
Hi Jessep,
If you say on a timetable comparison we are the equivalent of the Giants of 2005, that means Sandy’s five year plan becomes at least a seven year plan for he has already had two seasons under his belt and it took the Giants five more years to become a 90 win team (2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010). That’s giving us no hope until 2017? Is that the plan David Wright is so happy about – that at 35 he’ll be able to look forward to be a post-season contender?
In 2014 (if we compare the 2008 Giants to the 2012 Mets) all our pitchers are going to be more developed, including those just coming up now and Harvey from last season. The Giants again took many steps after the 2008 season (our 2012) to solidify the team from the outside. 2009 (our 2013) became a turning point for them because of those off-season acquisitions blending in with the remainder of that young pitching staff. At this point, we are only waisting time by standing still and doing nothing more.
But thanks for making me feel better…., I can hardly wait for the 2017 season to start!
This 2017 stuff drives me crazy. The pendulum has completely swung now. Fans care more about owners making MORE millions upon millions than actually winning, or even having a chance at playoffs. Mets fans lust for financial flexibility as if it’s a championship. We throw out terms like long-term sustainable winner like the only way to get there is to cut salary and lose for the prerequisite 3-5 years first.
because its cooler if u win a ring and only spend 40 million on payroll !!!
what fun is there in outspending your competitition…20 years from now…fans are really going to look down on those rings
- said NO ONE ever
Hi Hank,
It appears some who are Sandy supporters actually believe the team is not ready yet to take that next step into free agency while despite all that could have been and hasn’t, those of us from the other side of the fence are actually more confident in the team we currently have then they are if he would only take those next steps.
Yep you got it Joey….
and THEN they go onto say WE are the ones that are being so negative all the time not the ones who say the team sucks and not worth fixing for another two years….
Go Figure….
Sandy’s doing a GREAT JOB….But the team still sucks!
Thats what they think!
We are negative for saying get this team some help there are enough kids here already.
Joey – How can you say in 2014 our pitchers will be more developed than the Giants staff in 2008?
I think that is where you’re failing to use common sense, and why do you keep changing the year? Just stick to one year and go with it and lets stop changing it from 07 to 09 then back to 08.
So are you saying the Mets 2013 are like the Giants 2008? Is that the comparison you wish to make?
Hi Jessep,
That is not what I said.
“In 2014 (if we compare the 2008 Giants to the 2012 Mets) all our pitchers are going to be more developed, including those just coming up now and Harvey from last season”.
How does saying “all our pitchers are going to be more developed” imply I was saying “in 2014 our pitchers will be more developed than the Giants staff in 2008 “?
Jessep, it appears word games are being played to twist things around. I had also pointed out that after going 72-80 and with only the ninth best aggregrate pitching in the league in a weak division – and in the context of equating San Francisco’s 2008 to our 2012 – that the Giants went out that winter and acquired four position players. First you said I got my information wrong, then suggested I might have just not worded myself properly (while others understood what I meant) and then went on to point out there were acquistions made prior to and after that winter – failing to acknowledge that I had already discussed that (remember Donal’s funny comment about the Giants being better off by having done nothing?) and was therefore focusing on the moves made after 2008 when they had just finished their fourth consecutive year of no better than 76 wins in any one season (also the same with the Mets from 2009 thru 2012)
But even more important is ignoring what Just, Metsie and Salty understood what I was attempting to get at.
I have not been talking in terms of results – I have been talking in terms of approach or “vision” as Sandy would call it. Eventually staying that course worked out for them – consistantly trying to add pieces from the outside while their pitching staff was growing.
The Giants had been taking that approach since the end of the 2005 season when their great eight year run (1997 – 2004) ended and they needed to “re-build”. They did not wait around on just the hopes that their young pitching staff would develop – nor did they use “being burned” with Zito, Rowand and even Rich Aurilia as an excuse to stop trying. Had they followed Sandy’s path they would not have been in the post-season two of the last three seasons.
Same with the Nationals, Reds and even Detroit None waited for a young nucleus to show signs it was ready to come of age. In fact, who would have ever thought that three seasons that the kids who were part of a team that went 43-119 would be in the world series? They NEVER WOULD HAVE if they did not get those three big bats that I previously mentioned to go with those kids.
Joey – you’re frustrating me beyond belief because I like you but you’re making absolutely no sense. Stop typing paragraphs and answer my question. I don’t want to twist your words but your words are so contradictory it’s hard to understand what you want to say. So I will try again
2013 Mets – in your opinion if you were running things, what year would you compare them to the SF Giants? 07? 08? 09? 06? what? Are you saying Alderson SHOULD be managing his roster like the Giants did in 2 thousand and what? 6? 7? 8? 9?
Because when you talk about them moving on from bad signings like Rowand, Aurilla, Zito – you’re saying the 2013 Mets should follow the 09 Giants blueprint are you not?
I started this discussion the other day saying that if the Mets invest money into next year’s team they really would actually be following the Giants progression if you compare Harvey and Wheeler to Cain and Lincy. Then I too got something similar to this in response where I start reading it and then give up due to confusion and boredom.
Yep but the problem is some here seemingly are more interested in defending Sandy’s lack of movement more than they are in actually discussing the merits of movement and the parralells of how other organizations worked thier success.
Atlanta didn’t trade Murphy until the year before they won a WS….
Drafted Chipper with the first overall pick in the 1990 draft.
All thier success came after 6 consecutive years of being 5th or 6th of 6….
And once they had all those guys THEN they started trading away guys like Murphy…
Jessep,
How many more times do I have to state I am comparing the stage the Mets are in now to that of the Giants after the 2008 season when they were 72-90?
And how many more times do I also need to say I had also provided a history of of the Giants to show that they didn’t just begin to supplement their young players with free agents after the 2008 season but in years prior to that as well?
Don’t know why those who have the same perspective as I do were not confused with what I was saying – as evidenced by their own replies which specifically alluded to the 2008 SF/2012 Mets comparison. Don’t know why they also had no problem separating that comparison from my prior posts which focused on what San Francisco was also doing in the off-seasons prior to the conclusion of 2008 and how they are all tied in to each other (as also evidenced by their earlier replies to those posts too).
SaltyGary understood this when he wrote “You guys are focusing too much on who they signed instead of why they signed these guys and that’s Joey’s point.” He then added “When you look at teams like the 90′s Braves or The Giant’s that Joey mentioned, they built the foundation with youth while putting complimentary pieces around them and when they thought they were close pulled the trigger on higher ticket items to get over the hump.
Salty and others did not feel my words were so contradictory that it was hard to understand what I wanted to say. Disagreeing is something different.
“How many more times do I have to state I am comparing the stage the Mets are in now to that of the Giants after the 2008 season when they were 72-90?”
Okay now we’re getting somewhere. You’ve mentioned guys acquired in 07, some in 06, some in 09… now we have a date, perfect.
You’re wrong still.
The 2008 Giants had a 24 year old Cy Young winner, and a 23 year old Matt Cain who finished his 104th mlb start.
The Giants built their 09 and then championship 2010 moves with the knowledge (not the hope) that they had 2 young aces.
I don’t understand how you can compare Mets 2013 to Giants pre09?
Harvey & Wheeler today are where Cain/Lincecum were in 05 or 06 at the latest. You cannot make a comparison to the Giants based on their 2 aces and then ignore the facts about ours. Wheeler has never stepped foot on an MLB mound – Lincecum had a cy young in his pocket on opening day 2009. Matt Cain had over 100 career starts – Jon Niese today doesn’t even have 100 career starts.
If you’re telling me that the SF Giants are the blueprint and the Mets need to do with their roster what the Giants did with Cain/Lincecum then you are conceding the next 3 years.
LOL I love the old Two Step here….
When the discussion was Beltran Wheeler was a SURE THING ACE well worth punting on 2011 for…..
Now that he is here we two step to how UNPROVEN he is and how it’s not important to build a team around the guy you made trades and purged talent to prepare the team for his arrival….
at NO POINT did the Giants say “We are not close enough to get players”
The HAD Zito and Cain had just come up.
Maybe Cain had more starts than Harvey but whose fault is that? Many said Harvey pitched well enough to start the season last year….would have been where Cain is with Wheeler taking the spot of that other Ace in waiting….
So the parralells are far closer to the Giants than any other team whose philosophy you have mentioned as a template…
The one KEY difference is they had 4 top 10 overall picks to build with…..
Netted them:
Lincecum 10th overall – That guy ou cite as their key rebuild piece
Bumgarner 10th overall – another rotation arm
Posey 5th overall – Thier most potent hitter not on roids
Wheeler 6th overall – Who they traded to us!
If there is any difference between them and us it is those TOP PICKS which I have said to you for two years is REQUIRED to rebuild but you keep insisting is not.
Hi Metsie,
Yes, it is interesting that suddenly to justify Sandy not signing free agents, the talk about Wheeler suddenly becomes more cautious and no longer expressed like this:
http://nymag.com/daily/sports/2011/07/alderson-mets-carlos-beltran-trade.html
The problem here is that many people seem to THINK they know what Sandy is doing and make whatever argument they WANT what he is doing to fit with the actions but then he goes and does something they didn’t anticipate, doesn’t fit (Wright being signed and spending in 2013 now 2014 soon to be 2015) and they scramble for new explanations that don’t jive with thier preceeding beliefs and have to change what they said was true before to meet the new reality.
When we had K-Rod, Beltran, Reyes, Dickey and even to some extent Pagan this team wasn’t good enough to compete so trading them off for KIDS who WOULD CHANGE THAT was smart because they were all so POSITIVE those kids would be starts and make us competitive and NOW that they are about to be here (Wheeler and d’Arnaud will both be on the team before the year is out) they are now UNSURE they have fixed the issues that the trades for youth were supposed to fix and want to wait even more, which will only lead to us trading those kids for the same reasons we traded the starts we did to get them….
Take note that the ONLY thing consistent in all the arguments and explanations from anyone who loves what Sandy has done is …..
DON’T SPEND!
Thats what they really support and this whole REBUILD from within thing is just a convenient excuse to NOT SPEND….”We are REBUILDING…We are NOT READY”
It’s not about the state of the team with these guys it’s not about how many kids we have their entire philosophy and argument is geared toward what they TRULY want to see done here…..
MONEYBALL!
They read the book Bought into it’s premise and want to see it here possibly because they believe they will be able to anticipate the moves and look smart on a blog by predicting them!
They don’t really care if the team wins as most if not all don’t go to more than a few games every year….
It’s not about the PERFORMANCE it’s aboutthe SPENDING….
And every story we will ever hear is based on how to justify that….
When Sandy does (if he lasts long enough to) spend then you will see them turn on him for doing what Omar did….
Their only hope is that we will be annually broke so he can’t and they will get what hey want…
MONEYBALL in NY!
Every argument you see here from the Sandy side is designed to justify the continued use of MONEYBALL!
And they think eventually it will suceed enough to boost attendance….
Well look at the attendance numbers for Oakland…..
It doesn’t work.
Hi Jessep,
Fair enough yet the reason for our difference of opinion is that your primary focus is on Linsicum and Cain and mine is spread out more among the rest of the rotation.
Again, would rather have five dependable starters – even if not one was considered an ace – than two really great ones and then three others like Sanchez (5.01), Zito (5.15) and the then traded Correia (6.05) who was replaced the following season with 45 year old Randy Johnson. In essance, the Giants had only four starters who could be considered their future on the major league level going into 2009. Same with us in Gee, Dickey, Harvey and Marcum (our Zito)
Wilson was the closer (ERA 4.62 and overall the bullpens were equal in that both were bad and overall their pitching was still ninth in the league in aggregate ERA.
Even our team was younger overall. In 2008 the Giants aggregate age was 29.8 while in 2012 ours was 27.7.
Right but you have to agree San Fran didn’t win the WS in 2010 because they had 2 good pitchers. They won because they had 2 great pitchers and timely hitting.
In a playoff series you want great pitchers. Good pitchers are what the Reds had last year. Great pitchers is what San Fran has in Cain.
If you want to say the Mets should look at SF I’m with ya – but you cannot compare the Mets pitching to 2010 Cain/Lincecum right now.
It’s just like the Mets in 05…. they were gearing up to build around Reyes/Wright because they were ready. Harvey and Wheeler are not ready… yet
The Giants built around greatness, not a collection of alright-good pitchers.
I guess we are forgetting we HAD Dickey who just won the Cy Young as one of those pitchers with Niese filling the Cain role as far as experience and possiblly being the next GREAT pitcher….
Or are we just sweeping that under the rug at this point?
Good point, Metsie, though we can say d’Arnaud for Posey – at this point in time – might be an equalizer. Just want to show that I’m being objective and not ignoring things to twist an arguement.
And Jessep, without those three other starters, Linscum and Cain would not have been enough to get them past game 162 – they fell four games short of the wildcard after being tied with Colorado the last day of August. If they only had a third stater who could have had an ERA that just wasn’t a bit lower than the league average
No one is projecting d’Arnaud to be the next Posey though…
And no one is predicting Wheeler will be the next Lincecum anymore either…
They sure used to when it was convenient to pump him up as the only promising Sandy Acquisition…..
Now it’s going to be all about Snydergaard….
Cause no one can prove anything and they are safe predicting how great he will make us until he gets where Wheeler is and is then called UNPROVEN because they don’t want to stick thier necks out and stick with thier initial assesment of GREATNESS….
If Snydergaard tanks the Dickey deal could very well be a bust.
So expect to see them downplay him when he gets close enough to have evidence one way or the other.
I have faith in Sandy !