14
2013
Piazza, Clemens and The Fight That Never Happened
An article by 
Updated 2/14/2013
To this day, I don’t know beyond a doubt what Clemens was truly intending or thinking. He’s never said anything different than he said that night. There remain questions only he can answer. But with the extra clarity that comes with time, perspective, and video, I’ll go this far: there should have been a fight.
It hadn’t been possible in July, when I was lying on my back with my head ringing like school was out. In October, though, it was not only possible but — circumstances be damned — it was in order.
Item one: Clemens threw a broken bat in my direction. Item two: I walked toward the mound and asked him what the f— his problem was. Everything was in place, except that item three never happened. It should have been Roger saying something like, “Get your sorry ass back in the f—ing box.” Or saying nothing; just giving give me a look, a gesture, any small, subtle, actionable trace of defiance. If he does that, we’re brawling. If he does that, the whole thing makes sense and continues down its natural path. I was right there. But I had my parameters for fighting on the field, and the World Series was sure as hell no time to set them aside. Before I could take a swing at him, it was imperative that Clemens note my objection and issue a proper invitation, a verbal or visible “go f— yourself.” Instead, he turned to the umpire and babbled on about the ball.
He screwed up the script. He sabotaged my payback. I won’t repudiate my response, for all the reasons and mixed signals I’ve discussed; but looking back on it now, whether I kicked Roger’s ass or he kicked mine, there should have been some closure.
Without a fight that night, revenge would be hard for me and the Mets to come by. Clemens wouldn’t pitch in Shea Stadium — where he would not only have to face a hostile crowd but would have to bat – for two more years. And he wouldn’t pitch again in the 2000 World Series.
I was emailed a link, by the publisher of Long Shot, to a chapter from the new book. It was quite compelling and I wanted to share a snippet with you. It was fascinating and compelling to say the least, and you can read the rest of it here.
I was one of those BBWAA members who cast my vote for Mike Piazza. I concede disappointment in his admission in his autobiography he took androstenedione, but only because it further lends to speculation he might have used PEDs. Let me explain.
From andro to steroids is the logical, but unsubstantiated conclusion. Once again, Piazza denied using steroids, but this certainly won’t enhance his Hall of Fame chances. Piazza received over 50 percent of the vote, but still was far short of induction. Part of that percentage was from my vote, and for that I still have no regrets.
My criteria was there was no admission of steroid use; he never failed a drug test; was not mentioned in the Mitchell Report; and nobody accused him on the record. There was only the subject of columns pointing out his back acne. To me, Piazza had the statistical career to warrant induction and the acne is only innuendo. As a journalist, I don’t operate on speculation.
Andro was not a banned substance by MLB when Piazza claims to have used it, nor was it illegal. Steroids, however, are different in that before they were banned by MLB, they were illegal in society without a prescription.
Regarding PEDs, Piazza wrote: “Apparently, my career was a story that nobody cared to believe. Apparently, my success was the work of steroids. Had to be. Those were the rumors. … It shouldn’t be assumed that every big hitter of the generation used steroids. I didn’t.’’
Of course, Piazza could by lying. Lance Armstrong lied. Pete Rose lied. Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa lied. It wouldn’t be a shock, but for now I believe him and do not regret giving him my Hall of Fame vote.
About the Author: John Delcos
I am an active member of the BBWAA and have covered Major League Baseball in several capacities for over 20 years, including ten in New York working the Mets' and Yankees' beat. I covered the Baltimore Orioles for eight years and the Cleveland Indians before that. I currently serve as an editor and senior staff writer for Mets Merized Online. Follow me on Twitter @jdelcos.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 24 | 18 | .571 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 20 | .535 | 1.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 23 | .465 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 16 | 24 | .400 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 32 | .256 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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Hi John,
You are right not to have speculated when there was no evidence and Mike denied any use of drugs whatsoever. But the point is well taken now that unlike before when he said he didn’t use anything, he now comes out and says he only used androstenedione. We’ve seen the pattern before with other players – first nothing, then the story changes a bit, then we find out there was more behind that (ARod for example with that clinic in Miami).
Might be that Mike was not being totally honest with us before and is now being completely open about his own usage. Like many, he could have felt intimidated by what such a revelation could cause (as it has now). I too did not put credence into the acne bit – when my wife was in her mid-thirties she too had to contend with such a problem on her back as well. But we don’t know. The credibility has been challenged by his own timeline of statements more than him just having played during that era.
by your own criteria, he should get voted in.
Piazza actually admitted to using andro while he was still playing for the Mets. The revelation in the book is not new. Since andro was both fully legal, as well as easily obtainable at a GNC store, I think there are likely hundreds of players who tried it. Maybe even the ones we currently anoint as saints, such as Jeter and Mariano Rivera.
Some will point to Piazza’s use of greenies, but its use was so widespread throughout baseball, and openly as well, that you can’t really get on him for that. They used to have special pots of coffee spiked with speed in some clubhouses. Hank Aaron took greenies!
What would really make a difference is if it ever came out Piazza did anabolic steroids. That’s the heavy stuff. That’s the stuff that was clearly banned in and outside of baseball since at least 1991. Either Piazza was clean or he was just a ton smarter than cheats like A-Rod, Clemens and Bonds who were too sloppy about hiding their steroid use.
At any rate, since there is no credible evidence up to now that Piazza juiced, he deserves the benefit of the doubt and a vote to get into the HOF.
Hi Metro,
I was truly unaware of that earlier admittance. I will do some research on my own and let you know with what I come up with.
Hi Joey — Here is the link to a 2002 NYTs article that references Piazza’s earlier admission of andro.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/30/sports/baseball-steroid-use-becomes-a-topic-of-discussion-in-clubhouses.html?n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fSubjects%2fT%2fTests%20and%20Testing
Also, note what he says about greenies. It’s true what he said — they’vebeen used for decades — and very openly. But the point is his statements in his book are consistent with everything he’s said in the past. Unlike with A-Roid!
As I said, either Piazza was clean of anabolic steroids, or he’s just one of the smarter and more discreet players to have used them. But in the absence of credible evidence, to be fair, you got to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Joey — Don’t you think it’s odd, in hindsight, that absolutely nothing was made of Piazza’s admission of andro use over 10 years ago? It was so inconsequential that most don’t even remember he said those things. I think it’s because taking andro at the time was no big deal and lots of players did it. It was considered no worse at the time than taking aspirin.
People only raise their eyebrows now because it has since become banned by baseball, and because some want to link him to the hard stuff. But if there’s any proof that andro and anabolic steroids were looked upon differently at that time, one only has to look at this article.
Hi Metro,
You were right about the earlier admittance.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/30/sports/baseball-steroid-use-becomes-a-topic-of-discussion-in-clubhouses.html
So I apologize for the inference based on something I was sincerely unaware of and did not vet further into to be sure my memory was correct.
But as you noted and as the TIMES did repor back in 2002, Mike did admit Piazza using androstenedione early in his career and stopped when he found no apparent change in muscle mass.
Agreed, because Mike did try to produce a change in his muscle mass at least once, it still does raise those questions of uncertainty. Love Mike, but have given the benefit of the doubt so often to so many that I’m hesitant to do so again. There is no right or wrong with either of our opinions.
It’s a shame that I have such suspicions but what other choice is there being all we know now about the era he played in and the mindset of the times couple with more we keep learning about the subject as time goes on.
Joey — All athletes have tried to produce a change in muscle mass at least once in their careers! It’s called “lifting weights!”
Because Piazza admitted to doing something legal, that means you won’t give him the benefit of the doubt on the illegal stuff? That’s your choice, but I think it’s wrong.
And in my earlier post, I should have said “Don’t you think it’s INTERESTING, in hindsight, that absolutely nothing was made of Piazza’s admission of andro use over 10 years ago?” Because it’s not odd at all that andro use was considered inconsequential back then. What is odd is that past use is considered iffy now.
Hi Metro,
Did mention that you raised valid questions – again, it’s just a matter of doubt with the whole bunch.
Knew you were going to try and zap me with something like lifting weights as soon as I hit the “post comment” button and realized not only were one or two sentences run-on but that I had left out the word “un-naturally” to produce more muscle mass.
It’s a matter of the achievements and the records that I just can’t brush this thing aside. Even if they were mostly all still competing on an equal playing field (most taking something) it’s not the outcome but how those achievements are viewed for posterity. For many of us, there is a link between the past and the present and this messed up the whole equation.
greenies were and are illegal
try again
Greenies are not the same as anabolic steroids which your idol cheated with.
Try again.
and yet you cant dispute the fact that greenies were and are illegal….
Piazza admitted he took an illegal drug in order to enhance his performance.
I never tried to.
Almost all baseball players took illegal greenies to enhance their performance.
Like I said, greenies are to steroids like a spitball is to a grenade launcher.
Nice analogy
you have as much proof that “all of baseball” was using greenies as I do that 85% of the league was on steroids…
as someone said…its whatever you CHOOSE to believe.
Piazza ON RECORD in the 1996 off-season…before all the hoopla over steroids said that he WOULD take Steroids if he felt it would help him..
http://articles.latimes.com/1997-02-26/sports/sp-32588_1_piazza-rumors-steroid
“If there is something you can put in your body that can help you hit a slider, sure, I’d take it,” he said, laughing.
- Mike Piazza
And this is the same guy who added 28 lbs of muscle in 1 off-season…
and the same guy who said he took andro…
and the same guy who said he took greenies ( an ILLEGAL DRUG )
but yeah…no reason to be suspicious !!!
1) First off I said “almost all baseball players” not simply “all of baseball”
2) Regarding the Piazza link you provided, LOL, are you kidding me? He doesn’t say he would take steroids specifically, and his statement can be assumed to mean he would take only legal things. Moreover, in the same article he says categorically he didn’t do steroids! It really doesn’t matter what a player says they MIGHT do … if they don’t do it, then it’s not an issue. It’s not impacting their stats or the playing field. This link if anything supports the opinion that Piazza was CLEAN!
3) Regarding steroids, generally the only ones who give very high numbers for their usage are (a) drug dealers like Radomski or (b) those who have been caught and exorcised for using steroids like Caminiti or Canseco … IOW, individuals who have a vested interest in exaggerating the numbers to make themselves look better … And then we have the survey testing done in 2003. It showed just 7-8% usage. The survey was supposed to be forever anonymous so there was no reason for anyone to go off steroids prior to the test. Even if you assume that some did, and double the result, you’d get only roughly 15% positive. That is the most substantiated number that anyone has ever gotten for any type of PEDs usage in baseball.
4) Regarding greenies, here are some excerpts and quotes to show you just how ubiquitous, widespread, accepted, AND OPENLY USED they were in baseball:
He told agents that “‘everybody had greenies. That’s like aspirin.’… Grimsley stated that until last year, Major League clubhouses had coffee pots labeled ‘leaded’ and ‘unleaded’ for the players, indicating coffee with amphetamines and without.”
http://www.ktvu.com/news/sports/grimsley-mlb-clubhouses-had-leaded-coffee-pots/nKSXf/
Amphetamines have become as much a part of the clubhouse scene as card games and hot feet. In a Kansas City Star story last year, former Royals outfielder Brian McRae recalled how there were always two pots of coffee brewing in the clubhouse — one conventional and the other laced with stimulants. “I had to make sure I got the unleaded,” McRae said.
While some medical professionals have observed that amphetamines might heighten an athlete’s senses or quicken reaction time, the more commonly held view is that stimulants are performance “enablers” rather than performance “enhancers.”
“Typically, a veteran player finds a way to get them and he supplies them to the other guys,” the coach said. “In the old days, a player might pop one to get up for a day game after a night game. Now guys use them more and more. They’re passed out like candy in the clubhouse.”
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/01/11/not-steroids-but-for-bonds-a-bitter-pill-is-uncovered/
Several players said club trainers do not supply the pills but are fully aware of their extensive use and don’t feel obligated to stop it. These days, in fact, it’s not uncommon for players to bean up in the clubhouse proper, rather than back rooms and training rooms that are off-limits to the media, and to joke with each other about drug use. Last month a current All-Star, upon being chided by a former player about sitting out one game, shot back, “That’s it. I’m going to take a couple extra beans just for you now,” and reached into his locker for some pills.
Chad Curtis, an outfielder who retired last year after 10 big league seasons and says he never used performance-enhancing drugs, agrees with Caminiti’s approximation that perhaps 90% of the players take some form of pregame stimulant. “You might have one team where eight guys play naked and another team where nobody does, but that sounds about right,” Curtis says. “Sometimes guys don’t even know what they’re taking. One guy will take some pills out of his locker and tell somebody else, ‘Here, take one of these. You’ll feel better.’ The other guy will take it and not even know what it is.”
Curtis adds that amphetamine use is so prevalent that nonusers are sometimes ostracized as slackers. “If the starting pitcher knows that you’re going out there naked, he’s upset that you’re not giving him [everything] you can,” Curtis says. “The big-time pitcher wants to make sure you’re beaning up before the game.”
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1025905/2/index.htm
Even so, players appear to be much more tolerant about the use of amphetamines than of steroids, recent interviews with players and executives indicate. Gwynn said, ”Guys feel like steroids are cheating and greenies aren’t.”
A veteran major leaguer, who said he thought the union’s position on drug testing accurately reflected the views of most players, estimated that as many as 75 percent of baseball players are using amphetamines regularly.
A general manager in the National League said he assumed most of his players took amphetamines.
Gwynn told a story to illustrate his sense of how desperate some players are to improve their performance. When San Diego was on the road during one of Gwynn’s final seasons, he walked into a visitors clubhouse and found the floor littered with amphetamines.
”There were a bunch of pills lying all over the floor,” he said. ”There had been another team in there just before us, and evidently, they’d left these greenies behind. Our guys were like, ‘Hey, wait, wait, don’t throw those out.’ ”
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/22/sports/baseball-new-drug-tests-in-baseball-stir-debate-among-players.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
Amphetamines “have been around the game forever,” the Hall of Famer Mike Schmidt writes in his new book, “Clearing the Bases,” which HarperCollins will publish next month. “In my day,” he says, they “were widely available in major-league clubhouses.”
But the pills were readily available in all clubhouses, often dispensed by team trainers and other medical personnel.
Mike Schmidt: He explains in the book that “amphetamine use in baseball is both far more common and has been going on a lot longer than steroid abuse.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/sports/baseball/28chass.html
Finally, here is this anecdote about Dan Patrick’s encounter with a bowl of greenies commonly found laying around in many clubhouses …
Back in the eighties, Dan visited the clubhouse of a National League team. On a table, out in the open, in a side room to the main lockerroom was a fish bowl of what appeared to be something candy like, like Skittles, M&Ms or Jolly Ranchers where you could just reach in and grab a handful. When Dan asked “What’s this?”, he learned that it was actually a bowl of “greenies” a.k.a. amphetamines available for open consumption. Alright, he got it. They’re not legal, but it wasn’t something that was going to change your physical appearance. They were considered more of a temporary alertness helper. Is that any worse than what you may find in a clubhouse today – Red Bull, Monster, 5 Hour Energy or any of the other “pick me ups” anyone can buy anywhere? Just asking.
http://dpshowmorethansports.blogspot.com/2013/01/sicklovin-yummy-bowl-of-skittles.html
So that’s my proof. And I’d say for sure, most baseball players have used amphetamines. And I’d say it’s likely steroids use was below 25%
Where’s your proof?
Good read.
I suspect even if he categorically denied any and all use of PEDs, etc. there still would be lingering suspicion by some. There probably will be of all good players during that era, with or without any kind of proof.
Hi srt,
Yes, that is the shame of it. Many good names will forever have a cloud of suspicion over their heads – as exemplified by my own hesitancy to give Mike the benefit of the doubt even based on the valid questions raised by Metro before.
It’s not a question of morality or character by many but just of the records set
Guys,
Also mentioned in the past that just based on performance, I doubted Mike was taking anything based on how bad his throwing arm became – any type of PED would have made it stronger than two bounces to the bag.
But then, who knows? Again, it’s a shame but baseball did this to itself from the owners on down.
LOL, there is likely some truth to that!
The PED issue is way overblown.
Piazza was the 2nd best catcher of that generation
he deserves to be in the HOF
Piazza was the best catcher of his generation.
Try again.
*best hitting catcher not best defensive. I love Piazza but Ivan Rodriguez is right there with him almost during that era. Piazza more power and while Piazza was good with pitchers, blocking balls, framing, blocking plate and is often under rated, Pudge no doubt has the edge on D
Piazza = Best catcher OVERALL.
Sorry. but I can’t take much of pudge’s career seriously. He is a known juicer. Big cheat.
yeah juicing really affects the defense
Juicing can impact the entire game. Offense, defense, stamina, power, speed.
Right. Overall = big picture or everything. Which is why Piazza is overall the best.
Pudge = Overall mirage and big cheater, Mr. ZERO brains.
juicing can affect the game…but in 2004, even AFTER mandatory testing had taken place…Even AFTER Pudge reported to camp 20 lbs lighter…
Pudge still wins a silver slugger, has the 4th highest avg in the AL
…still wins another gold glove….Pudge helps turn the Tigers pitching staff around, they go from worst record in baseball to WS contenders within 3 seasons under Pudge..
but yeah…it had to be the roids…
MLB’s PEDs testing program was so weak in 2004 that it was slammed by Congress. They got after MLB to strengthen it which they did in subsequent years. In 2004, once you got tested, you could then juice with complete impunity for the rest of the season. The program that year was a farce.
So, yeah … it must have been the roids.
Also, the impact of enhanced weight training facilitated by anabolic steroids doesn’t just stop when steroids are stopped. It can last for many months or more.
Overall = Pudge Rodriguez.
the word “overall” is the big picture. Piazza – Hall Of Fame hitting catcher. Rodriguez is Hall Of Fame hitting and defense. Actually Pudge is more of the “overall” catcher because he has the D,
Mr. Shit For Brains.
Right. Overall = big picture or everything. Which is why Piazza is overall the best catcher.
Pudge = Overall mirage and big cheater, Mr. ZERO brains.
No, overall Pudge is a better catcher. Period.
Piazza, who i love dearly and is a member of my favorite Mets teams, even moreso than the eighties is NOT the catcher Pudge is. He is an amazing Hall Of Fame hitting catcher but he is NOT the catcher Pudge is. That is not even an argument or a debatable fact.
I am being 100% honest and FAIR in my opinion.
You are not. You are a deceptive piece of shit and i don’t respect that. Everybody knows where I stand where on the other hand I hate people like you who PRETEND to be objective when you are anything BUT. You’re another one of those PUNKS who’s arguments depend on the strength of the internet but in real life you would be taken down in 2 seconds you stinking shit bird.
No. Overall Piazza is the better catcher. Period. Pudge = a cheating mirage. His juicing likely impacted BOTH his offensive numbers and his defensive performance.
Shit is too good a word to describe you, bayonne!
LMAO
we dont believe you, you need more people
LMAO 10000Xs … who cares what you believe?
the same amount of people who care about what u say…
So then your previous point was totally irrelevant.
and for the readers the last thing I’ll add to this extremely silly exchange is a link to google where I searched how much Pudge’s defense has been debated:
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&spell=1&q=Ivan+Rodriguez+best+defensive+catcher&sa=X&ei=KfQaUaiJD-nO2gX_3oHoBQ&ved=0CC0QvwUoAA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42261806,d.dmQ&fp=3a0b70e0abbc2599&biw=1148&bih=563
There’s several debates on whether or not Rodriguez might be among the best defensive catchers of all time on the firsts 3 pages alone so I saw enough and this debate is now over.
Pudge – 14 All Stars, 12 Gold Gloves, 1 MVP, 1 World Series Ring, 2,800 Hits, .
Piazza – 12 All Stars, 0 Gold Gloves, 0 MVP, 0 World Series Ring, 2,100 Hits,
LOL LOL LOL LOL It’s Metro again! LOL LOL LOL LOL
LMAO
(drops mic )
exits left
Bayonne, I know you cant tolerate idiots like him, but you know how shit works here now, so just talk to him in his language. LOL LOL LOL Know what I Mean? LOL LOL LOL
You have a point there in that “LOL” is what those guys do type a lot when they go under another monicker. Especially Kingman/MessRockwell. You are 100% correct.
When I say LOL it may sound innocuous, but to me it just means to go take a flying f**ck. LOL LOL
Ultimately, each fan has to decide for themselves how much to credit or discredit steroids cheats like pudge, Clemens and Bonds. For me, Pudge’s entire career is up in question because of the allegations of his heavy PEDs usage of steroids plus HGH.
For any reader who can’t make up their own mind and would like to read more opinions on the matter, I suggest they look at these links:
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=Ivan+Rodriguez+Steroids+cheater&oq=Ivan+Rodriguez+Steroids+cheater&gs_l=serp.12…2337.3372.2.4877.7.3.1.0.0.0.1694.4227.7-2j1.3.0.les%3B..0.0…1c.1.2.serp.Hd-GzpB6Dlo&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=f7d209707400a36c&biw=1143&bih=533
Here’s the opinion of one Cardinals fan:
” not that Steroid Cheat Ivan Rodriguez.”
Thank you. I get tired of people saying he’s a “sure fire hall of famer” when he’s a freaking steroid cheat. If we aren’t going to put in McGwire/Bonds/Clemens/Sosa/Palmeiro etc we can’t put in that guy either.
The debate will never be over. But my opinion stands.
hold on, I’ll be right back. I’m going to go get some quotes from fans and paste them here.
That’ll show ‘em
I just got off the phone with my friend who follows the Newark Bears, and he says you’re a french fried fa____ and that Pudge is a first ballot hall of fame. I told him not to say that to you, but he wouldn’t listen to me. LOL LOL LOL
Hold on I just opened the window and waved down some guy walking by and asked his opinion. I’ll let you know in a minute.
So says the one whose own link includes a mixture of both fan opinions and writers.
Just like the link I posted!
Hi Guys,
I have to come to Metro’s defense here regarding the Piazza-Rodriguez debate but from a different take.
There is so much suspicion surrounding Mike that we don’t know how much of his accomplishments were aided by performance enhancers. But we do know that was the case with Rodriguez. Canseco admitted he was just an ordinary player and that steroids made him the player he was. We know that Brady Anderson went from 16 home runs to 50 being juiced. We also know that Rafael Palmero’s 569 home runs and .288 lifetime batting average marks are all fakes. I saw ARod hit a home run half way up the back wall of the former visitor’s bullpen at the old Yankee Stadium which was the most unbelievable shot I ever saw on TV. I also saw in person Mo Vaughan hit a homer that hit the old Shea Stadium scoreboard about one third up.
I also know that in what I believe was a playoff game Pudge Rodriguez also threw out a base stealer while on his knees – a humanly impossible thing to do.
So for all we know, Rodriguez could have been a juiced up Brian Schneider and because of that we don’t know how good a player he really was.
Joey … a juiced up Brian Schneider?
I remember that Vaughn moon shot. Monumental!
“I also know that in what I believe was a playoff game Pudge Rodriguez also threw out a base stealer while on his knees – a humanly impossible thing to do.”
really?
humanly impossible ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_Xlr63qgO0
“So for all we know, Rodriguez could have been a juiced up Brian Schneider”
except in 2004, when a very slim 190 lb Pudge hits .330 and wins a silver slugger and gold glove…
I believe in 2008 he also hits over .300…with another gold glove…
also, Pudge was entrusted with mentoring 3 different young pitching staffs ( Florida, Detroit, Washington ) and a stud catcher prospect in Wilson Ramos..
Piazza was never ever ever ever considered a mentor for anyone…the guy was ( as HE admitted himself ) a self-absorbed jerk who was too caught up in himself.
The fact that now, a hundred years later, he is blaming Vin Scully as the reason Dodger reporters were writing those stories about him being a jerk…..is another thing to point to.
Brett Butler of all people ripped Piazza…Brett Butler was the super clean Christian cancer survivor…never once did he ever rip into a teammate…but EVERYTHING he said about Piazza in 1998, Piazza CONFIRMED in his book
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-03-03/sports/9803030032_1_rah-rah-guy-brett-butler-dodgers-spring-camp
I havent seen ONE mention of Brett Butler yet in his book….but its all Vin Scully’s fault?
GTFOHw/TBS
As Brett Butler said, Piazza was a fake and a phony….the fact that he neglects to even mention the effect of Brett Butler’s criticism and how it turned into a media frenzy…but somehow points to criticism that no one can even admit to hearing…is exhibit A-B-C for me..
believe what u want, but Piazza in my book was nothing but a b**ch could hit HR and had a wet noodle of an arm behind the plate
Metro – it’s fascinating isn’t it?
Here are the facts.
Pudge Rodriguez answered the PED question by saying “only God knows.” Pudge Rodriguez suddenly gained about 50 pounds of apparent muscle and then when the PED scandal broke, he suddenly lost about 30 pounds.
Through age 26 he averaged a HR every 38 plate appearances. Suddenly during the prime steroid scandal years when he was 27-35 that number dropped to 26.5
Now I believe Pudge is one of the all time greats. But there is more “eye test” evidence that he used something than there is Piazza because Piazza’s numbers never fluctuated and he never suddenly grew bigger. He also didn’t answer PED questions by bringing God into it.
Now as for defense. Pudge threw runners out. No doubt but he also sacrificed pitchers performance in order to do that. It is well documented that with steal threats on base, he’d call for fastballs – which sounds good if you wanna get the runner out, but what happens if they don’t steal and you just tossed a fastball right down the pipe to a capable hitter?
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/magazine/archives/news/story?page=magazine-20030428-article27
“Maybe it’s the whispers. That he nods off during pitcher-catcher meetings, puts down four fingers for guys with three pitches, calls only for fastballs when speedsters are on base, cares more about hitting and throwing out runners than helping his pitcher get guys out”
You cannot measure how well Piazza called a game or even how well Pudge did. But you hear guys like Al Leiter praise Piazza for it and of course you hear pitchers praise Pudge for it. So how do you define who was better at it? It’s not up to us and frankly to use 1 against the other is a waste of time.
Kevin Sherrington who has covered Texas since the 80′s said this when Pudge was announced to be brought in as instructor, Sherrington said this
“I think Pudge is a curious hire. He didn’t work with anyone when he was a Ranger, which led to his leaving the club. Wasn’t much for working with pitchers. And one of the problems with great players has always been trying to pass that on to others. Not too many superstars end up great coaches. But if he can give the other catchers some tips on footwork and release, it should help. Not so much if he just suggests they should always call for fastballs, so they get a better chance of catching runners.”
Now if you’re comparing them as hitters – there’s literally no reason to try. Piazza was a much better hitter.
You want to compare the ability to throw runners out? Fine. There’s more to playing the position than that though.
Being an exceptional hitter and having the ability to be an adequate catcher for an extended period of time to me is more impressive than being a good hitter who can throw runners out.
HI Just,
In that clip, the backstop was pushing off one leg – should have mentioned that Pudge was flat on his knees – as memory serves.
Anyhoot, my concern is less what Piazza is or isn’t but that Rodriguez for a good deal of his career was a fake. And I will not deny because he admits having tried to artifically increase his muscle mass, that Mike will always have a cloud hanging over his head as to whether or not that is all he tried.
Jessep – thanks for the links and quotes. They confirm what I had already thought and heard. Pudge was not considered very good at working with pitchers when he was in Texas. Piazza never got that rap anywhere he played. The plusses and minuses of each catcher can be endlessly debated but what it comes down to for me are the revelations by Canseco. Normally one wouldn’t take something like that seriously, but nothing he said in that book has ever been successfully challenged. No one has ever sued him. And the general consensus around baseball is that Canseco was telling the truth in the book. Therefore, I just can’t take much of Pudge’s career seriously. That’s the penalty you risk when you do steroids. Many fans won’t take your on-field accomplishments and numbers seriously any more.
I have the book on order and want to read the whole explanation not just the excerpts.
off topic-lol-where is the chat room? i followed the link, bay, but it was cached and no way to log in????
Clemens is a souped-up thug. Piazza a class act. End of story.
One thing I heard Monday on Francesa’s show that I completely forgot about – where were Mike’s teammates at the time? Nobody came out to defend or at least stand by their catcher.
Remembering that whole affair just reinforces my feeling about that 2000 club – it had great talent but despite a great season and playoff run, it had no heart.
i agree Joey. The thing to do was to have flung the thing back at the oaf’s head/
Hi Joey — Maybe the 2000 Mets had no heart. But they also lacked something the 2000 Yankees had in abundance — confirmed steroids cheats!
Don’t underestimate the impact those steroids may have had on that series. Both Clemens and Neagle did steroids. That was 2/3′s of the Yankees’ rotation in that series. It appears, it was not an even playing field.
One Met who showed a lot of heart that series was Leiter. Remember how well he pitched throughout the final game? Over 140 pitches. Too bad the Mets SS that day was Abbott. A better shortstop gets that dribbler.
Hi Metro,
Sure ‘nough know that.
My feeling is that Clemens had a bout of ‘roid rage when he threw that bat at Piazza – probably fuming because Piazza was deemed the nice guy while Rocket was being branded as a head hunter – don’t forget, he brushed back his own kid after he homered off him in the minors.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/27/AR2006022701251.html
Hey Metro, you never did tell me what you thought of my story about you going back in time and altering history by becoming responsible for the Mets having six consecutive world series flags and being hauled off in a straight jacket by jessep and Metsie.
Hi Joey — Very entertaining. You have quite the imagination … but don’t quit your day job!
“Remembering that whole affair just reinforces my feeling about that 2000 club – it had great talent but despite a great season and playoff run, it had no heart.”
BINGO
I saw Manny Sanguillen throw out a runner from his knees ….had it not been for Johnny Bench he would’ve won more Gold Glove awards. Sometimes these awards are a result of popularity but Bench should be included in this debate too, as far as overall best.
John — thanks for the link to the excerpt. I enjoyed reading it.
Piazza describes his confusion as to what was happening perfectly. Given that, combined with the occasion of the WS, I think he did the right thing by not charging the mound. I think it’s clear Clemens was in roid rage at the time, just as he was earlier that season when he recklessly beaned Piazza.
I find it interesting that Piazza asked MLB to investigate Clemens. Why didn’t Phillips make that request? It’s too bad Clemens wasn’t throw out of the game that night.
Now Piazza is trashing Vin Scully in his book as the reason Dodger fans turned against him.
and in the next chapter, he talks about how he was moody, selfish, a bad teammate, overly concerned with himself.
Yeah Ok Mike….
Interesting comment by Jessep, the guy who voted for Clemens. Disparaging Pudge for suspicion of cheating and opening the door for a known cheat and scumbag.
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2013/01/mmo-hall-of-fame-ballot-and-the-winners-are.html
LOL
Yeah I’m so inconsistent! I only said in my comment which you reference “Now I believe Pudge is one of the all time greats” Wow you nailed me there.
LOL giggle giggle teeheehee?
Maniac, so everyone sees it without looking at the link, here are the guys he would’ve voted for:
Jessep – Piazza, Bagwell, Schilling, Martinez, Bonds, Clemens
All of them either link, used, known user of PED. But of course, who said they like pudge? Bayonne right? there was NO WAY IN HELL he would’ve agreed to voted him in and went against it, even though he as usual is wrong.. Dont be surprise, the guy is a f’ing snake…
When you guys wake up in the AM do you decide you’re going to ignore anything I say and just make stuff up
In the comment above I said and I quote
“Now I believe Pudge is one of the all time greats”
What about that to you suggests I do not think he’s a hall of famer? Tell me. Tell me why I would say the player is an ALL TIME GREAT but then you say I wouldn’t put him in the hall of fame?
Because nothing of the sort was said. I was comparing Pudge and Piazza. Two hall of famers in my book.
Oh wait but there’s more!
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/12/davidoff-takes-logic-out-of-hall-of-fame-voting.html
Something I actually wrote! Wait… a quote about Pudge and my view of him…. wait for it.
“During the era in which Mike Piazza played, two catchers dominated the position. Himself and Pudge Rodriguez.”
Fascinating! But yes your evidence of fairy tales and pixie dust proves I don’t think Pudge is a hall of famer. Right!
But hey go run with your idea that I give a second of thought to who you guys like when coming up with my views on a player.
Maybe you guys can talk about it in the shoutbox oh… wait.