15
2013
My Thoughts On Fred Wilpon, Sandy Alderson and Spending
An article by 
Yesterday, I was at the hospital all day getting treated, when I heard and read about Fred Wilpon’s announcement to reporters at St. Lucie. I quickly posted a little bit of what he had to say from my phone with the intention of expanding on it the next day (today).
I came home this morning to an inbox full of emails regarding what the Mets owner had to say, with a few of them asking me for my take on the news. There was one question that seemed to resonate the most. So let me address some of that here…
I can sum up the main concern with many of my readers like this:
If what Fred said is true, where is the spending? Where is the proof?
The short answer is, ask Sandy?
Sandy Alderson has already said on at least two occasions officially this Winter, that his payroll budget was higher than last year and that the reason for not spending was his and not Fred’s.
Considering how often Sandy makes claims and assertions that often fail to pass muster in the two-plus years he’s been here, I can certainly understand your hesitation in believing anything he has to say. But in this one particular case, what does he have to gain by taking the bullet for Fred?
The other issue is that with all of the external evidence that has surfaced in the past three months alone, any rational person would have no problem taking Fred Wilpon at face value when he reiterated that all of his financial troubles are “now in the rear-view mirror”.
You can ignore what the evidence says all you want, but that doesn’t change the historical record or make you right.
These assertions by the Mets owner are not just backed by words alone, but they are accompanied by actions. There is a trail of breadcrumbs to follow and there always has been if only you were looking in the right places.
Bringing back the GCL team, giving Wright the richest deal in team history, the refinanced SNY loan, money pouring in from Madoff settlement that has dropped their net liability… These are not all fabrications, they are factual, tangible and very real.
Wilpon said as clear as day in his press conference that Sandy Alderson will have the wherewithal to bring payroll back to Omar Minaya levels if he saw fit.
But the questions and reactions I’m seeing here on this thread and in the email I’ve received is mostly:
Prove it. Show us the money. Why does our outfield suck?
So ask yourselves, what kind of spending did you want to see?
The same people I see complaining or raising skepticism are also the same people who say they were glad Alderson didn’t give Bourn that fifth year… The same people who were glad we didn’t bring back Hairston… The same people who would have balked at Josh Hamilton, spurned B.J. Upton, and choked on Zack Greinke…
“Alderson made the right move.” Isn’t that the new Mets meme?
When Alderson first took over the Mets, one of the first things he told us was that even if he could spend as much as $145-$50 million a year on payroll, he wouldn’t.
It was his opinion that those “Omar Minaya levels” were too excessive for him and he saw no reason why a team shouldn’t be able to win consistently with a payroll of around $100 million.
He said it, not me. That’s his philosophy, not mine.
So this evidence you are looking for may not come in the way you expect – that is with some sort of exorbitant spending spree. That’s not what Sandy Alderson does… That’s not who Sandy Alderson is…
So don’t go asking Fred to prove what he said. Instead ask Sandy to prove it because it’s only in his power to do so. He has a payroll budget and it’s up to him to use all of it, or 90% of it, or 50% of it.
So far, we’ve seen many instances of players the Mets were in on this offseason, but then were slammed out simply because Sandy refused to go the extra yard and spend the extra dollars.
He himself admitted as much on Scott Hairston during an interview with Mike Francesa on WFAN yesterday.
So the question you have to ask yourself is do you want to spend for spending’s sake?
Is that what you want Sandy to do, just so you can validate what owner Fred Wilpon said?
Well if that is your Litmus test than I’m sorry to disappoint you. The progenitor of Moneyball principles is not the GM for you if you’re looking to go back to $150 million dollar payrolls, or even $125 million dollar payrolls.
Additionally, no matter what the Mets owner says, there are those who will always feel comfortable sitting on their “Mets Are Broke” pots. They are comfortable on their pots and have no desire to put down their magazines, get up from their pots, and flush. There’s nothing I or anyone else can say to convince those few – who are now in the minority.
What was once my one-man army now has tens of thousands of Mets fans in it now. Glad to have you on board.
I’ve maintained from day one that the Wilpons were travailing through choppy financial waters. But I always said there was nothing to suggest imminent bankruptcy as some were screaming from their soap boxes.
There were far too many very vested and interested parties that would never have allowed the Wilpons to sink, under any circumstances. That has always been my stance on this, and that’s exactly what happened.
So you want to see the Mets spend and show their big market muscle?
That ain’t happening and it has more to do with Sandy than it does Fred.
As the Mets GM said, “blame me”.
Original Post 2/13
New York Mets principal owner Fred Wilpon said his family is finally past their financial debt problems and that general manager Sandy Alderson has the financial flexibility to make major free-agent signings in upcoming offseasons.
Reasons for improved financial stability is the result of the rebound of real estate, his primary business, as well as stock-market gains and SNY, in which the family owns a majority stake, thriving.
“It’s all in the rear-view mirror,” Wilpon said about past financial woes Wednesday, after arriving at the team’s spring-training complex. “… The family is in great shape. The family really is in great shape. Sometimes luck is the residue of design.”
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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The timing is impecable. I have been optimistic and supporting “the plan” but dont come out and say Sandy has the flexibility to sign free agents on February 13th. The offseason is over, all the free agents are gone and we added nothing to the team fielding a AA outfield. Jeez, thats really insulting and annoying to say they will sign free agents next yr. Im optimistic but Ill believe when I see it.
Isn’t it a coincidence that after they refinanced and got $160 million back, all these moves were happening so swiftly although it was really too late? Atchison, Hawkins, Lyon, Marcum, etc.
I take what Fred says with a grain of salt, but I can’t help but wonder if they’ll really spend. After all, they said years ago “money wasn’t an object” and all we really wound up doing was re-upping Oliver Perez -_-
My problem is the timing. Im not asking for Hamilton or Greinke..If their finances were improved then why not Ludwick or Ross or Reynolds to improve the offense. Those are the moves that annoy me. Im never pissed when they miss out on the huge free agents, its the middling players that would be huge for a middling team that needs professional players to assist the kids. We have 2 bats in the lineup that teams fear Ike/Wright, the rest of the lineup is filled with question marks. Its nice to have a solid rotation but Im sensing a lot of 3-2 loses this yr. On Feb 13th we are fielding a AA OF but the Wilpons are booming financially. Great, thanks Fred.
The GM is the one not spending the money. Fred Wilpon is not making personnel moves
>>general manager Sandy Alderson has the financial flexibility to make major free-agent signings in upcoming offseasons.
Well slap my butt and call me Nancy. Do you mean the Mets have had serious financial problems that have prevented them from being players in the FA market and keeping players like Reyes and now the problems are largely behind them and starting next year they will have the flexibility to be more aggressive?
Who knew?
yeah sure,
When you are dealing with financial empires such as his they can’t tell that if they’re in the clear within a 60 day radius starting with December..or even November so make it 90 days? An investment in Nov/Dec in order to make the team better, draw fans, make $$$ now went by the wayside because of your general manager’s philosophy of doing business.
So just TODAY..NOW they can spend? Bullshit
They could have spent more this offseason and your general manager chose not to. Not the owner, it was the GM making that call not to spend the money.
lol
Money’s not an issue, yet they did not want to do a 5th year on Bourn (most likely due to financial reasons). Hmm…
A 5th year for a guy who is 30, depends upon his legs, and doesnt hit for enough power to man a corner OF position.
You say it is financial…perhaps there is another way to look at Bourne. Just because there is money there, that doesnt mean that entering into contracts that dont make sense is a good idea. Bourne might play at this level for 2 more year so locking into a 5 year would have been risking. Dont forget, they have another contract, that statistically speaking, will be heading south at about the age of 34.
I’m not saying going 5 years is the correct move, but if money is not a problem, they should be able to absorb that 5th year a heck of a lot easier, which should have given Alderson to not have to go so hardline about the 5th year.
When you look at the FA class for 2014, the state of the Mets OF in 2013, the state of the Mets farm system for OFs, and sprinkle in this statement that finances are fine, Bourn at 4 years/48 million with a vesting 5th year will be a decent contract. It won’t be an A-Rod waste of 100 mil.
I just find it ironic that this statement comes out right after they hardlined Bourn about a 5th year and he bailed to go to CLE. Just saying…
Tex, instead of getting linked to Bourn for 5 years, just because he is the best option left out of a bad lot, I would rather they first tried to trade for other players this year. If they still need a CF when next off season rolls around, they can always go after Gomez.
I also get the impression that Sandy already caved by even going for the 4th year (meaning they really did not want more than 3) and just had no intention of going past that.
I hear where you are coming from. I’d sure like to have CarGo or someone of that ilk over Bourn, but I still think the scenario of Bourn at 4-5 years @ 12-ish mil and losing the 11th pick is probably a better deal that keeping that 11 mil and using CarGo in this analogy, having to take on even more salary plus losing Flores + Familia + Fulmer, etc. etc. It’s my personal take on that. Now, if they can find someone who is a difference maker like CarGo can be and you can not have to lose a Syndergaard or a Fulmer or Flores because you are taking on such a large financial obligation, then maybe it becomes worth it. But in general, most teams aren’t looking to dump something of value unless they are getting back talent. Similar to the Mets when they got Wheeler. They paid a bunch of Beltran’s salary to get better talent.
If Carlos Gomez had Bourn’s credentials…he would be WAY out of our price league…
he hits in a hitters park…has a terrible OBP..
fact is…u can use the excuse Sandy’s apologists gave for not signing Reyes/Bourn with any and every free-agent speedy leadoff hitter that hits the market…
if they are young, they will ask for alot of years…
if they are in their early 30′s its too risky of a deal
unless u are aiming for bottom of the barrel Figgins type of signings…
What are you ranting about? I am having trouble where you are going here.
CarGo = Carlos Gonzalez. CarGo does not = Carlos Gomez. I know, it’s pretty close there, but I think Gonzalez claimed that moniker first.
And I’m talking about acquiring someone like CarGo, who will not only cost a great deal of money, but also a great deal of prospects.
If you want to extrapolate that out to next year and try to sign Carlos Gomez, sure, go for it. Unfortunately he’s not as accomplished as Bourn, though he does have age on his side.
Carlos Gonzalez hits .368 at home and .238 on the road…
thnx but no thanx..
Those are his 2012 stats. He’s a career .338/.258 home/road split.
Anyway, the point was not about CarGo specifically, which I figured was apparent. The point was signing Bourn was overall cheaper than trading for a decent player (like CarGo). Bourn cost money and possibly the 11th pick. Trading for a high profile type player will require both money for their salary and prospects to get the pick.
I would have figured you would have loved Gonzalez on this team. Who would have thunk it…
While it’s imminent that Colorado is gonna find themselves in a state of rebuilding, I’d rather take my chances with Dexter Fowler than Gonzalez.
Wouldn’t mind fowler at all. Was just using CarGo as an example name.
This!
Built in excuses:
1. 27-29 – Five+ years? No way!
2. 30-32 – Already in decline, screw him.
“Sandy did the RIGHT thing by not signing him.”
LOL
Hi Taskmaster,
Let’s forget about Bourne. Why no other signings? There were many out there the past three months that were productive, under thirty and geared toward the problems we had – the outfield and the bullpen. Going after a few would have really been a big step in the necessary overall strategy of “rebuilding”.
It was properly pointed out from others that the Wilpons’ financial stability did not just turn around over night. As Joe D. reported “Reasons for improved financial stability is the result of the rebound of real estate, his primary business, as well as stock-market gains and SNY, in which the family owns a majority stake, thriving.”. Those improvements come in gradual stages and thus in turn could spending and re-investment come in gradual stages too. That is business.
Don’t also forget the Wilpons told us in December,2008 when the Madoff scandal hit the news, that their investments were well diversified and would not have any affect on the Mets.
There is such a thing about giving one the benefit of the doubt which is quite noble, but another when it comes to turning a blind eye to all the overwhelming evidence to the contrary – including learning what we had been told in the past was not the truth.
Remember last February when things were going to be OK with the uncertainty of the civil suit now behind them? What has happened in the 12 months since then? Or what about the reasoning that due to that uncertainty the Mets couldn’t invest in higher priced players before that time? Again, what has changed in the twelve months since that time.
What changed in the last 12 months. Lots. What changed in the last month? This.
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2013/01/mets-refinance-700m-in-debt-gain-160m-in-spending-money.html
Hey Joey.
You are correct. When the Madoff thing broke, the Mets exposure was not that great. If you look at what they were on the hook for themselves (the Mets corp, not the Wilpons) it was only a few million. What hurt the Mets was simply the fact that their books were in awful shape. Attendance has declined since Citi Field opened. At the same time, the payroll topped out $140M leading to losses for 2009-2012.
People think owners should just keep feeding a team. That is not how it work. Billionaires do not become that way by taking money from profitable entities and giving it to losing ones. Each entity has to stand on its own. This is how people like the Wilpons work. Hence, part (how big or small is up to debate) the reason why Alderson was brought in. Yes, a large part of his job was to get the financial picture in order.
As for the other OFs, who outside of Hamilton was a slam dunk. I have watched BJ Upton enough to know he isnt the answer. J Upton had to high an asking price according to the reports that came out. Cody Ross? Are you serious. Hairston? Please. The simple fact is there are some decent players out there but nobody who knocked people’s socks off. At this point, since a playoff appearance isnt in the cards, go with the kids to see what they can do.
Another point, Washington and Philly, two teams in need of an OF and with money, decided to go the trade route as opposed to entering the FA market. Remember how everyone was rumored to be going to one of those teams only to see them each deal with the Twins.
I like Bourne as a player. Personally, in the present, I feel the Braves might have taken a step back in CF by swapping BJ Upton for Bourne. Overall, I can see the move because of the three year age difference and the fact that BJ could eventually be moved to a corner OF since he has pop. So his value should remain higher for a longer period of time. But if you look solely at the next season, Bourne might actually have given them more than BJ will. Time will tell on that but BJ, when watched on a regular basis, just isnt that terrific. His potential is very high but when will he live up to it? Big question.
As for the BP, I feel they have improved there while using the proper approach. Signing big name FAs with a proven track record hasnt proven successful over the past 5 years. I firmly believe some solid arms will emerge out of all the invites who are brought in. I cannot tell you who it will be but two or three will impress and fill needs. Couple them with Edgin (who I am really high on), Parnell, Hefner as long man, and FF (because he isnt going anywhere), then you will have some guys who can get people out. Is it on par with the Reds or the Braves BPs? Not a chance. But it is more than serviceable.
“As for the other OFs, who outside of Hamilton was a slam dunk.”
so basically…
any player that is a SLAM DUNK is out our price range
any player that is NOT a SLAM DUNK but still good is too risky
we are then left with the players @ the bottom of the barrel …who sign for cheap…
Hi Taskmaster,
As far as the players available, I will not judge on who or whom would have been the better fit except that they were out there. The more important thing, to me, is the motives behind the moves. One can question Omar’s wisdom but nobody can question his intent was to create a winner and that was all he was focused on. But with this front office, that is not the case.
We have to remember that it was not just a few million that the Metropolitan Baseball Club of New York, Inc. itself had lost but both, a half-billion dollars invested in Madoff plus the annual returns (which if we go by the estimated annual return of 16 percent comes out to $80 million a year). And then it came to a point that twice the Mets could not pay their monthly expenses and that Fred had to put $38 million of his money into the team back in 2011.
And the financial situation as we know was not like we were led to believe during that often referred to first blogger conference call Sandy had in December of 2010. Won’t repeat the quote about finances but this was quite interesting what he said regarding the Mets at the all-star break:
“I think any team that’s in a position at the All Star break to make a run, needs to take a hard look at what they have and what they need. Assuming we’re in a position to make a run, one could also assume that attendance would reflect that. We’d be in a strong position to make a more. I don’t think that the way we’re approaching this offseason would necessarily be repeated at the All Star break. We want to be in that position. We want to be in that position where we can add a player or two and make a run. I definitely would think if we’re in the hunt at the All Star break we’ll be taking a real hard look at what we can add.”
That does not sound like an individual thinking in terms of a five year plan to rebuild. There has been that lengthy (and with a a few, a quite vicious one) debate about how serious the Mets were really in the running at that time, however, we do know that the Met organization itself was heavily promoting the Mets chase for the wildcard with flashing the wildcard standings throughout the broadcast, playing scoreboard watching with the cameramen. Even if that was for public consumption, Sandy did mention that “one could also assume that attendance would reflect that” and that “We’d be in a position to make more”.
Finances must have been very, very bad for the Mets to feel the need that dumping KRod’s $17 million vesting plan immediately (for two nobody’s) was of more immediate importance than the revenue attendance could possibly bring in the next two months (which Metsie and I have pointed out would have clearly been the case had attendance just stayed level). What we do know is that while Sandy was painting a good financial scenario that December, the Mets had already received that $25 million loan from MLB to avoid default the month before. We also know a $40 million bridge loan was needed later that season in addition to the Wilpons having to put $38 million of their own money into the team. Those two combined come out to $78 million that was needed immediately at different times of the season.
That’s why from the beginning many of us contend the moves made within the organization was to save the Wilpons from having to relinquish ownership. That’s why many of us sdo not trust what is said today about the better financial scenario and that the Mets were willing to commit to big dollars to obtain Bourn (conveniently using that CBA clause to get them out of it). Why? Well, besides the actions of the past three years (including the final season with Omar) we were told to expect the same thing in November after they got re-financing from SNY, we were told that last February after the civil suit was settled, we were told that the December before with the Mets willing to offer Jose $100 million had there been some vetting clause regarding his physical capabilities – and then not using the money saved anywhere else. And, as you know from that conference call, Sandy said that the restraints he would have were temporary and would not be affecting him after 2011.
It is obvious that finances dictated the course of the team. Even the steps other teams took during their own re-building have not been followed by the Mets. People could disagree with this cynicism but nobody can say that there is not justification to believe it so.
Transcript of that December conference call with bloggers FYI.
http://www.amazinavenue.com/2010/12/10/1869167/transcript-of-sandy-aldersons-conference-call-with-bloggers
Yes, that moneyballing scum in the front office had nothing to do with that.
I just have a stupid question for Fred – if that is the case, why don’t the 2013 Mets have a legit closer, a legit leadoff hitter, or one, just one established OF?
Fred doesn’t have the answer to that, he hired someone to do that and that’s called a GM and HE’S the person you blame here not the owner. The GM blew it this offseason, not the owner.
And how different were the finances in December when the offseason was at it’s peak? 60 or so days makes that much of a difference and when you’re dealing with that significant amount of money they could not foresee being able to make more impactful signings this offseason?
Baloney. The GM held back, not the owner
BMF,
I agree, the GM is definitely accountable. In no way, shape, or form is he getting a pass. I just figured my stupid question would go to the bossman who made the comments. Perhaps Joe D. can get him to have a live chat on this site, or perhaps Jr. if Sr. doesn’t feel like it. Surely, with no budget limitations, they could find one established OF/leadoff hitter. And, memo to Sandy, there are still established closers looking for work in 2013.
Hi TJ,
But the general manager was hired by the Wilpons and just like Omar – who also had one year remaining on his contract – the general manager can be fired as well. Or is it a matter that things were so bad that in order for MLB not to take the same action that it did with Texas and Los Angeles, the Wilpons were handcuffed into accepting Sandy with no questions asked and no restrictions.
That sounds far-fetched but so does not letting go of a general manager conducting business in a manner they did not approve of. Especially in light of when they were interviewing candidates for the position, Fred stated that whoever they hired had to see things their way – which is the usual criteria any employee sets up – unless convinced by the interviewee that he or she had a better way of doing things.
HI Joey,
Who did John Daniels sign. They are bitching in Texas too.
However if he trades for Stanton at the deadline which I expect then all is forgiven.
What bill we get at the deadline?
Answer: Nothing or at best nothing special
Hi Hotstreak,
What does that have to do with who takes responsibility for the way the Mets handled their own business – the owners or the general manager or, as I contend, both?
Hi Joey,
I think most Met fans wanted Jon Daniels and Texas lost Josh Hamilton, an Mike Napoli. They failed to get J Upton, Greinke, RA Dickey, TAD (or even JP or even Russell Martin: I am not sure if they pursued him), Michael Bourn. Plus they collapsed in WS with Cardinals and in 2012 lost 8 out of their last 10 games to blow playoff spot. What do you think of Jon Daniels if you’re a Ranger fan?
The grass is always greener. But they will get Stanton at ASB in NY and we get zilch. Freddie gets ASG revenues: Yes the clock is running and it makes no difference whose fault it is.
Who can take a ballpark, cover it with boos
Build a team with scrubs and a rehab case or two
The Sandy Man, oh the Sandy Man can
The Sandy Man can ’cause he mixes it with walks and makes his asswipes feel good
Who can take a franchise, run it till it dies
Soak it in some bullshit and then sell it with his lies
The Sandy Man, the Sandy Man can
The Sandy Man can ’cause he mixes it with walks and makes his asswipes feel good
Sing it, Sammy…
source: http://www.lyricsondemand.com/s/sammydavisjrlyrics/thecandymanlyrics.html
Hi Maniac,
I am a big Anthony Newly fan so rather than seeing his great lyrical skill being altered to associate with this front office, suggest sticking to “What Kind Of Fool Am I?” which needs no such alteration whatsoever.
Anthony Newly?
Nobody knows who he is. lol
When I say “Sing it, Anthony” people will think I mean Anthony Bourdain.
Boggles the mind isn’t it. Let’s see if the Mets can go after major FAs after this season.
The flexibility to sign free agents next year will be more from the absence of Johan Santana than anything the Wilpons, or Sandy Alderson have done. Once Johan is gone, outside of Wright, Davis, and the starting staff, we will be a AAAA team with money to spend. Hopefully we spend it in the right places, and these “prospects” pan out. I just hope there is something to get excited about this season.
Yup. even if they stay at about the same 100mill +/- max, there will be enough money to spend on “real” FAs. Carlos Gomez would be nice!
Hi Matt,
If things are like Joe D. reported – “Reasons for improved financial stability is the result of the rebound of real estate, his primary business, as well as stock-market gains and SNY, in which the family owns a majority stake, thriving”, then Santana’s contract would be nothing more than petty cash and would be more than offset by the money to be made by fielding fiscally investing in a more competitive ball club. The public relations boost alone would in the least bring back the return of former season ticket holders who just got fed up over the past few years.
I always laugh when I see that picture.
I love lamp!
Well good job by Joe D. who has been telling us this all along. You’ve had your finger on the pulse of this and you never once showed bias, the sign of a great journalist.
I thought Joe pretty much guaranteed that payroll was going to drop again next year, and be sub-80mill for a while?
He pretty much didnt guarantee anything but to warn us that everything Howard Megdal reported was unfounded and speculation being passed off as reporting, and he was right.
As for sub 80 payroll, what is this years spending after you deduct deferrals? Anybody know or keep track of this stuff?
I have tried to keep up with that and though I have yet to add Lyon I have it estimated at a little over $75M.
Whoa that’s you? Well very nice job and site too I might add. When I put Mets projected payroll on Google your site was the first listing I saw. Wish I could say that about my real estate office.
Thanks for the compliment they’re much appreciated.
Hey everyone did a quick search and found this.
http://realdirtymets.com/2013/01/29/a-look-at-the-mets-2013-projected-rosterpayroll-after-daniel-murphy-ike-davis-avoided-arbitration/
Dont know as to the credibility of the site but it looks well researched to me.
Sub-80 van.
You’ve found the oasis in the desert.
I see you already found the post.
SIGH…. I see people keep bringing sand to the beach…. SMH…
In the meantime we have a a questionable bullpen, keep shedding all stars, and no outfield. Whatever. This franchise is in the toilet and it’s time to flush.
Havent you been paying attention…the franchise has been in the toilet for more than two decades.
No it hasn’t. That’s just simply false. Typical t agee
This franchise has not been in toilet for over 20 years. T agee next time you change your name why don’t you just call yourself “20 Years”?
Without looking it up,this franchise has easily been in the top 5 in mlb in terms of dollars spent per win and in overall payroll for the past 20 years.
However, it certainly is not in the top 5 in terms of playoff appearances, heck .500 seasons, wins and any other positive category you’d like to see. The Mets have had 3 seasons of 90+ wins over the past 22 years. That’s a pretty awful record considering how much money has been invested. We got to enjoy three brief stretches of 3 year windows that were fun from 1998 through 2000 and from 2006 through 2008.
That’s it and ultimately a result of mostly shortsighted thinking by this ownership group and the GMs employed by it.
Omar Minaya started making some changes towards the end of his tenure. He resisted the urge to trade Jon Niese for Raul Ibanez at the 2008 deadline for example. That ( and the bullpen) may have cost the Mets a playoff berth that year. But it was the right move for the longterm good of this franchise. And basically Alderson & Co. have fastened the pace of what already started under Omar. It hurts initially but has the potentially to finally get this right going forward.
The damn and quite unsucessful shortterm thinking had to stop finally. Large market or not. Rich owners or not…
Can you give a reason why? I will.
1. Not going over slot on amauter draft.
2. Bringing up players not developed to soon e.g. Pefrey and generation K. Mejia too.
3. Playing players out of position.
4. Losing draft picks for over the hill FA except Beltran.
5. Bidding on players against onself.
6. Terrible medical staff especially on concussions.
7. Never rebuilding and competing the same time like the Braves and Cards. Quick fixes.
8. Terrible front office such as Phillips,and Duquette.
9. Franco and Leiter having ear of ownership and getting rid of Kazmir.
10.Letting farm system be negleted and having no idea what winning is. A cultur of losing.
I agree on just about everything, but there’s one thing I’d quibble with. They were right to trade Kazmir. The problem was the return.
I am willing to concede. Yes they predicted he would break down. The return was terrible for a highly touted young lefty.
yeah the Steve Phillip’s front office was really terrible while you were rooting like crazy during some of the Mets most exciting games during arguably one of their most exciting eras, first back to back post season appearances and made a run for a 3rd too while also at the same time producing Wright, Reyes, Pagan, etc.
You do not know what the hell you’re talking about. And Phillip’s probably made the highest number of positive trades to help a team since Cashen. And Phillip’s was very good at building bullpens too something your lord should give him a call about.
Out of respect for the Joe D. I am trying to control my anger which you think your a tough guy but really not even an hombre a little boy behind a computer. Steve Phillips had nothing to do with Reyes signing which was reluctently done by Asst GM Duquette. Jim Duquttee as the story guys turned down Omar’s request as head of international scouting in DR to sign Reyes until he was informed Cubs were hot on his trail. Yes Phillips was GM but did not even get involved as he was screwing around. MO Vaughn and Almour and company. How did Phillips leave the farm? POS thats how. Most said Phillips and not Valentine should have been fired. Yes you can think Phillips was good but I don’t like the way disagree, You can’t bully me Most here think your an AHole or at least I do. Never respond to my post again unless you prove you grown up to be a man. Screw you bud.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/10/ranking-mets-gms-all-time.html
I would put Omar #3 but otherwise agree. With rankings of Mets GM’s.
I would have put Devine ahead of Cashen. Cashen is living off the Hernandez gift and in the end he broke up that team he built with dumb moves like the Juan Samuel trade.
Add to it he let that team get out of control and the lack of oversight led to the addiction issues of young kids like Strawberry and Gooden. It’s not enough to get them you have to nurture and protect them as well.
What I did find interesting is how that article ended as it seemed to suggest Sandy is more in the area of McDonald than any of the others.
“Put another way: if Alderson’s tenure turns out like McDonald’s, it’ll probably precipitate another sale of the team.”
Thats pretty telling if you ask me….That it is even considered a possibility that it could be as bad as McDonald because I been saying for awhile now the last three offseasons have been more like Mcdonald/Grant 77-79 than Cashen 80-84….
Metsie, if the losing continues and the attendance and TV revenues dwindle then no breakeven for the Wilpons. Maybe Mayor Bloomberg will shell out of 1 Billion for the team and ban sale of soda and hotdogs. It’s something to think about.
LOL a 32+ oz Soda at a baseball game would probably cost more than a Ticket!
And if Bloomberg bought the team you could forget about having a beer too!
My worry is if they are forced to sell that they will sell to someone who would rather move the team to someplace where there are no yankees instead of paying all the taxes of NY to keep a team here in a city that can’t draw enough to pay the bills.
I’m not sure the Wilpons can actually sell the stadium and Network with the team. The Network has other partners and I’m sure there are some restrictions on who and how they can sell it, possibly even giving the cable partners first rights to buy the network and match any offer.
And there is no guarantee whoever buys the team wants the stadium too. Not many people with the kind of money it would take to buy all three…
BAY…, PERHAPS U MISSED PHILLIPS’ ABJECT FAILURES REGARDING THE ENTIRE JOB DESCRIPTION NOT ONLY AS IT PERTAINS TO MLB; BUT, AS I DISTINCTLY RECALL, HIS DERISIVE OPINION OF DEVELOPMENT WAS HIGHLIGHTED WHEN HE OPINED HIS DRAFT STRATEGY AS… “I CAN’T DETERMINE WHAT THE NEEDS WILL BE NEXT YEAR, LET ALONE 4 OR 5 YRS AWAY, SO I DON’T CHOOSE TO PICK POSITIONAL PLAYERS FOR POSITIONS I MAY NEVER NEED; BUT INSTEAD CHOOSE TO SELECT THE EASIEST TO SIGN, BEST AVAILABLE PITCHERS WITHIN EACH ROUND; WITH A SUPLUS OF PITCHING I CAN ACQUIRE WHATEVER MY IMMEDIATE POSITION NEEDS MAY BE.”
UNFORTUNATELY, FOR THE FRANCHISE, JEFF HAD GROWN WEARY OF HIS FORMER ASSIGNED BASEBALL MENTOR & SOUGHT TO COMBINE THE COO & GM FUNCTIONS UNDER HIS OWN JOB TITLE BY LEVERAGING PHILLIPS’ OUT JEFF’S CAMPAIGN BEGAN BY UNDERMINING PHILLIPS’ DEVELOPMENTLESS STRATEGY BY HIRING HIS OWN “SPECIAL PITCHING ADVISOR”[PETERSON] TO STUDY THE FRANCHISE’S PITCHING POOL SINGLING OUT THE KEEPERS & FROM THE REST, THEN DECIPHERING WHICH TO JETTISON SHORTLY THEREAFTER, PHILLIPS WAS FIRED & FRED REFUSED HIS SON’S WISHES FOR JOB CONSOLIDATION BY HIRING HIS FORMER FAVORITE ASS’T GM, MINAYA, COINCIDING WITH PETERSON’S COMPLETED EVALUATION REPORT FROM WHICH JEFF ORDERED A TOTAL DISPERSAL OF A MAJORITY PROMPTING FIRST DUQUETTE THEN OMAR TO OFTEN KICK-IN A PITCHING “SUSPECT” IN NEARLY EVERY INITIAL DEAL
AS PHILIPS WAS SO MYOPICLY & DELIBERATELY BLIND TO FARM DEVELOPMENT; HIS ABJECT FAILURES @ WHICH HAVE BEEN FELT STILL ALL THESE YEARS HENCE.
BAY, UNLIKE MANY HERE I DO NOT HAVE A GOOD “PLAY BY PLAY” MEMORY; HOWEVER MY CONTEXTUAL RECALL IS NEAR FLAWLESS ESP S IT REGARDS AN AREA OF IMPORTANCE TO ME, PERSONALLY.
Yeah Phillips was really blind and very myopic about the farm so much that David Wright, Jose Reyes, & Angel Pagan were signed/drafted under his administration as well as Melvin Mora, Heath Bell, Ty Wigginton, Nelson Cruz,etc.
Yeah, Phillips was SO terrible that I’m sure you were thinking about this while buying your playoff tix in 1999/2000.
What a bad, bad, bad, BAD general Manager. how DARE the Mets be exciting to watch from 1998-2001 during his tenure. TERRIBLE
He should DIE!
To start I havent changed my name from anyone but you engage in your little fantasy
As for the last 20 years not being pathetic, you are out there too. But that is to be expected when you use a philosophy like you do. Oh the Mets were 6 games away from this or that. The bottom line is they didnt win. That is like saying the Eagles were 4 games away from 4 super bowl appearances. Big deal. They didnt make it. They lost. As did the Mets.
One can argue the merits of different approaches but to think the Mets history since 1990 was anything but pathetic is insane. The Mets basically are the San Diego Chargers; completely inept except for the occasional playoff appearance.
The Mets have had THREE post season appearances since 1990….that is pathetic.Look at some of the other teams playoff appearances:
AZ 5 Twins 7 As 7 SD 7 Seat 4
Not exactly teams known as the cream of the crop or elite franchises. The Mets are at the bottom in terms of success. That is pathetic.
I think the problem is that his minimally exceptional son is in charge of the baseball operation.
The Family is in great shape….The TEAM?
Not so much….
Bingo.
Good point, Metsie.
You have been the one pointing out that we should separate personal wealth and other business entities within Sterling Equities from that of the Mets. The question is whether or not the Wilpons adhere to those business principles you profess.
And as others have said, their recovery couldn’t have just happened overnight and so a certain amount of addition money allowing for some increased spending had to be there at least three months ago when the free agent market opened.
Even more important is the point you have raised which some of us have disagreed with you on variation (me with the SNY factor). While the Mets might have been without working capital for investment, that didn’t pertain at all to the Wilpons as far as their overall empire was concerned. For example:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162-57567687/report-mets-owners-made-pitch-for-massive-casino-next-to-citi-field/
Well Joey if the lose 23Mil or more again this year it really won’t matter how well off the Wilpons are will it?
They will not be all that likely to go spend on Free Agents attendance will not support paying.
And if they think they can BREAK the fans like a Union and assume that at some point we will give in and start going to see a crappy cheap team that will let them make money and spend they got another thing coming.
So far the attitude has been “we can cut out all the stars and high payroll and they will still come”
Except fewer came!
And Fewer will come in the future for as long as they think just having a warm body at each position plus kids in the minors 4 years away is going to turn a profit at some point.
Cause just look at who supports that plan I bet there isn’t a season ticket holder among that group. And if they won’t go why would anyone else who is unhappy with the way they have decimated this team?
Hi Metsie,
Bet ya I can name just one season ticket holder who supports his plan….
Metro, you listening? As Bugs Bunny would say “Gee, ain’t I a real stinker?” LOL.
This is my first time posting on this site due to how heated the conversations get on here at times, but I really wanted to respond to your post. Because the situation you describe happening in this post, is exactly what I fear is going to transpire this season. And then come next off-season we will hear ownership and Alderson making excuses once again why they couldn’t spend or make any trades to improve the team. Not to mention I am very concerned about Alderson’s unwillingness to overpay for any players via free agency or trade when that is the only way the Mets will be able to get decent players on their team based on where they are at. So assuming the situation in your post plays out, do you think there is any chance the Wilpons may finally fire Alderson at the end of this season, especially if they come to their senses and realize that they can’t bring in any revenue operating the team in the way that Alderson wants to run it? Or do you think Alderson will definitely be retained as GM past this season? How many games does the team have to lose for his job to possibly be in jeopardy? He may not be totally at fault for what is wrong with the team as I believe the Wilpons are terrible owners and should have been forced to sell already for the best interest of the game. But Alderson’s business model, in my opinion at least, is clearly not working out as of right now and should the Mets have another bad season I think the Wilpons really need to consider letting him go.
Welcome RKH and I don’t blame you from not wanting to jump into the cesspool some have created here over thier love of a FO over the team.
I would not cry if he did get fired but I will be honest I don’t think this is the year it happens.
Most likely scenario is Collins gets fired and takes the fall instead (undeserving IMO) which will buy Sandy one more year.
A lot will depend on the Win Loss column and that mostly will be determined by what Duda and Davis do this year. If those two can come back to thier better selves then that might be enough to offset the loss of Dickey every 5 days and that alone will be enough to give Sandy one more year to “Make His Move”. His fate will depend on what he does or not after that. Attendance may still go down but no one but the Wilpons will care about the losses if they can win ballgames. That will only affect spending not thier status with the team.
But if they lose 100 Games (not likely but possible especially if injuries happen) He will find himself on the edge of the plank with massive public pressure to push him off but I suspect he won’t actually get fired till midway through the 2014 season at the earliest. Attendance will plummet and there will be no money to pay the guys they already have commitments to let alone take on any more commitments in FA.
The problem as I see it is we made the mistake of thinking we were spending too much but we were not spending too much in relation to other teams. We were hardly the highest payroll in the league.
The issue that needed fixing was the attendance not covering spending and what they did may have cut spending but it also cut attendance so they got pennies on the dollar in savings.
Unfortunatly the only salary they cut was Attendance driving Salary not any of the actual wasted salary on the roster.
The problem all along was lack of attendance not too much spending. If they found a way to get attendance up another 200K they would have been able to pay all the bills and turn a profit.
Sandy has run out of stars to trade to look like he is improving the team now. All that is left is Santana and Wright and it’s not likely he is going to get much for Santana, Wrights contract makes it very difficult to unload on someone else. Even if they could, the damage to revenue and Public Relations for doing that would be so massive that it would have the masses bringing out the knitting needles, rocking chair and Guillotine to have an Off with thier heads party.
The WIlpons will do what they always do. As we see now they are attempting to ge the fans off thier back and stop taking the heat for the lack of spending.
Sandy isn’t being thrown under the Bus just yet but he has now been walked to the curb. When the bus comes and the stories in the paper start turning on the approach the Wilpons will act as they always have….
Offer the GM as a sacrifice to get criticism off of them.
We will get to hear Fred proclaim how much he hates losing and how much he loves the team and wants to see it win as we have every other time he fires a GM.
And the only thing we can hope for then is that he doesn’t just promote one of the guys Sandy brought here to take over for him.
So MidSeason (or late) 2014 is when I suspect is around where Sandy will get fired. I believe thats the last year of his contract anyway and they just HATE paying guys that are fired for much longer than ayear…
In the end the issue isn’t what the FO did but WHEN they did it.
Rebuilding is fine to do when your already the worst team in the league and poised to pick in the top 10 of the draft for the next few years to get a three or four year supply of top ( elite) prospects you can use or trade due to thier projected Cielings and promise.
THEN you can trade away those big stars who find they have a prospect pushing them out the door to get even more kids ala the Beltran and Dickey trades.
They jumped the gun and in the end what they did was more like Grant in 77-80 than Cashen in 80-84.
Grant did the work of making us the worst team in the league so Cashen could do what he did when he rebuilt. In this case Sandy did the grant work and it’s looking like someone else will have to come in and be our Cashen. Thats a lot of years to wait before we see another winner here.
SO all these kids we will be starting come late August had all better be world beaters or Sandy won’t survive to see that win.
That’s nice Fred. Please understand there might be five or six Mets fans that believe you. Maybe.
Grerat timing on their comments. Pretty slick on the Wilpon’s part to put this optimistic news out just before spring training and the start of the season. Why? TO SUCKER MET FANS INTO BUYING TICKETS! They have no respect for us-none NADA!!
Slick and Wilpon should never be used in the same sentence.
On the topic of the Wilpons and their finances if Rubin’s math is correct the Wilpons will now owe $85,696,740 on the settlement agreement less than a year ago between Mets owner Fred Wilpon, brother-in-law Saul Katz and their family and trustee Irving Picard that originally started at $162.7M and the 1st payment is not due till 2016 which may see that final number go even lower.
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/60894/wilpons-madoff-settlement-figure-down-to-86m
Still nobody understands me as a mets fan, nobody out there agrees with me that the wilpons and sandy suck and they all need to go. I mean common on man, what knid of owners let their team fall apart and not bring in the pieces they need to finally have a winning season. Really who in the world would do this as owners., I’m tired of this excuses. First we have to feel sorry for this low life owners over money cause of madoff, the blame should be on the wilpons for doing this to our mets, and now all of a sudden we have money, then we should have sign bourne, no matter what case closed, even david wright wanted him to be on our team where is the commitment of these owners. Really nobody is tired of this crap. The wilpons have hurt our mets, our city, and most importantly the mets fans. Once again we suffer for them being stuipd, that means we pay make them rich and we have a bottom basement team again. Please sell our team , does anybody of the mets brass read this or sandy or any upper peolple read this cause i feel the mets brass don’t care about me as a true mets fan who’s been suffering for along time. Over and over again the wilpons want us to beleive, beleive in what oh yeah slot machines give you more money and no team to help build our future with david wright. Thanks again you low life wilpons.
Hi larman,
Do not worry – you are indeed not alone for many of us (more than there used to be, in fact) understand exactly what you are saying.
[...] With the first week in spring training well underway, the entire Mets chain of command found their voices and have been giving interviews. Let’s recap from top to bottom, starting with Fred Wilpon. [...]
Hearing this reminder me when I saw an old episode of Gillian’s island where thurston Howell the 3rd was washing his money in the lagoon and he had a few extra bills wash up with his.Yes that kind of Rich!,,,
It’s even funnier how they were going back and forth with bourn (The last FA with big bucks tag), yet, barked at his $ demands, and as soon as he signed with the indians, fred comes out and says he’s ready to spend… Ahhhh, on what exactly???? They defered wright’s contract, didn’t add more than $10 million overall on payroll, so i am not sure what exactly he meant by he’s ready to spend. And of course, the delusional fans will still go to the games and spend on tickets etc…
It really wasn’t that hard to understand. He said that the team would have more money to spend next offseason. That would be after this season.
Go read the article again. Its right there in black and white.
Bulllcrap, last year the same the same thing as well as he was walking out of the courtroom.. Don’t give me that sh**, your lord DOESN’T like spending period. That’s been his MO is Oakland and SD, where he destroyed both franchises after he left a huge mess on both.
Watch next season you and a few others of his supporters come out and say the same sh** for 2015… SMH
Are you this wound up in real life? Does every disagreement you have cause you to freak out and start insulting the person you are talking with rather than have a rational discussion? There are anger management classes you can take and it might make you a happier person.
In any case, no matter how many times you say it, I am not an Alderson fan. I am not a fan of any GM or owner. I am a fan of the team. And, big bonus here, I can read and comprehend the words I read.
I, along with a few others here, have been saying for months that despite Alderson’s strategy of building from within with young, controllable talent, a strategy I happen to agree with, the real reason that the Mets weren’t more aggressive in the FA market was because of the Wilpons’ financial problems. I also said that with the resolution of the Picard case and the refinancing of the debt they were largely behind them and next, again next, offseason the Mets would start to increase payroll again. And thats exactly what Wilpon confirmed yesterday.
You don’t have a monopoly on wanting the Mets to win. I want them to win as badly as you do. But I don’t throw childish temper tantrums over things I can’t control, engage in conspiracy theories or call those who disagree with me names. Most adults don’t either.
This is why i hate having any type of discussion or debate with you, your intelectual bullsh*t and stuff, you claim i am insulting you yet you send me to go take anger management, boomer, GFY
With that being said, from day one that i was seeing what this guy was all about i said he was here to bring the current financial issue of the wilpons to where they can keep the team, of course, the sabergooners and his supporters who thought this man was a genius murder me for that, calling me and a few others haters and stuff, 3 years later, after realizing that the man is not a genius (Nor Stoic) they went back to the “blame the wilpons” “He had no money” excuse to defend him at all cost…
Nothing you write ever makes any sense. Don’t you get sick of that? Or are you one of those people who was never told you were full of it so you assume you know what you’re talking about.
Your angry rants often contradict each other within the same sentence.
Are you like this in real life? Your anger would be the most annoying thing about you if it wasn’t for your stupidity.
Who among us didn’t think that Alderson was bought in at the direction of Selig and in reaction to the Wilpon’s financial problems? Who?
And just so I understand, your argument is that he was here to help the Wilpons keep the team but his approach was not driven by a lack of financial resources? Do you not see the contradiction?
You, Bayonne, Damaja, you’re so freaking tiresome. We get it. You hate Sandy. You hate anyone who has anything remotely positive to say about anything Sandy has ever done. Its understood by now. Just shut up already.
Who among us didn’t think that Alderson was bought in at the direction of Selig and in reaction to the Wilpon’s financial problems? Who?”
JesseP, Donal, SRT, murpy guy, hell, pretty much anyone not associated or related to the CORE…. Moving along
Huh? You can’t include SRT or any of the ones who read TRDM either. I can’t think of one author or commenter on the site that thought that Sandy wasn’t brought in to bring the financial mess to an end. As far as I know, I haven’t even read any of them say that they expected him to even be here after his contract runs out.
You might be full of it, but come off the grouping and just flat out lying to prove a point.
Lying??? Salty who belonged to the desert actually became a CORE jedi because he went against you and your sandy beliefs, you and your 7 dwarfs from the desert defend sandy at all cost, and we’ve seen the extend of SRT’s cheerleading ways when all she’d say is “THIS” and “BLAME THE WILPONS” in almost 90% of her comments. move it along because i am not trying to have a fight with you
‘BLAME THE WILPONS”’
That’s right. If not for the financial mess of the Wilpon’s Mets, SA would never have been the GM.
What is so hard to understand about that? It’s pretty much common knowledge.
Please let me disparage my RDM fans without being lumped into the coeur. You reduce my leverage and effectiveness.
You’re in the Core? When did that happen? Did they have to prick your finger and then burn a picture of San Gennaro in your palms?
News to me too man. I thought with gangs, you actually have to try out for them first.
Done…. Moving on…………
‘JesseP, Donal, SRT, murpy guy, hell, pretty much anyone not associated or related to the CORE’
What? LOL….Really?
On this, you couldn’t be more wrong. I’m sure everyone here got tired of me saying over and over the reason SA is the GM. He was a package deal between Selig and the Wilpons.
Can you refute this ?
any player that is a SLAM DUNK is out our price range
any player that is NOT a SLAM DUNK but still good is too risky
we are then left with the players @ the bottom of the barrel …who sign for cheap…
>>This is why i hate having any type of discussion or debate with you, your intelectual bullsh*t and stuff, you claim i am insulting you yet you send me to go take anger management, boomer, GFY
res ipsa loquitur.
I’m neither defending nor trashing Alderson, just stating the facts. He believes in building from within and he had little to no money to bring in FAs. It hasn’t been a conspiracy, it has been a lack of money.
Right, and when i said that 3 years ago along with bayonne, maniac, metsie and others we got pegged as haters, losers, etc… You’re nothing but a defender of his as well, the only difference is you use a diplomatic way to slurp your way… Same difference if you ask me.
Hi Boomer,
Well, if what the Wilpons say is true – that they now have the money to spend – and suddenly we see a big shift toward spending – would that not mean that what he said about re-buildng was to cover why they were not going to spend?
And what about his thoughts about the future back in December, 2010? I’ve referred to this quote so many times when he first talked about his strategy – which was a combination of the team being”as good as we can today” along with “putting an infrastructure in place that will make us as good as we can be down the road”. Rather than repeating the entire question and answer, the highlight of that quote is:
“My business philosophy is that we want to be prudent under all circumstances but New York is not Oakland. As I said earlier, I wouldn’t be here if it were. So, we do have a long term strategy but that long term is focused on being as good as we can be today but also putting an infrastructure in place that will make us as good as we can be down the road”
Then when asked specifically about 2011:
QUESTION: My question involves your comments about flexibility and maybe not being free to do things this year. If for whatever reason things turned out well and we went into the All Star Break in competition, maybe winning the Wild Card, maybe a game or two back of Philadelphia. What sort of flexibility do you have maybe, to make a trade or bring in a player, maybe for a stretch run. Maybe Santana’s set back a little and we need another pitcher, what kind of flexibility do you have in terms of that?
ANSWER: I would expect to have — I would hope to have — much more flexibility. I think any team that’s in apposition at the All Star break to make a run, needs to take a hard look at what they have and what they need. Assuming we’re in a position to make a run, one could also assume that attendance would reflect that. We’d be in a strong position to make a more. I don’t think that the way we’re approaching this offseason would necessarily be repeated at the All Star break. We want to be in that position. We want to be in that position where we can add a player or two and make a run. I definitely would think if we’re in the hunt at the All Star break we’ll be taking a real hard look at what we can add.”
Boomer, nowhere in either of the above statements does he say the team needed to be rebuilt as it is it was he hoped if the team was in it by the all-star break he would add a player or two to make a real run at it this year and to create an infrastructure for the long-term. That is what so many of us contend would be the goal of most any viable organization – be competitive for the present and build for the future at the same time.
The actions he took were so much different than that December day in 2010. I don’t think it can be dismissed as him simply looking over at things again and changed his mind.
Have been asked many times why do I keep on referring to the past instead of focusing on the present? It’s because it appears many have either forgotten – or simply have ignored – the past when making their arguments that Sandy came to the Mets with a vision to re-build from the start or was restrained in spending because he had no money. The above again shows that was not the case – or that he was not being honest with the public. And, if he was not being honest then – as we know he wasn’t being honest often in the two years that followed, how could one expect him being honest with us now?
Maybe I am a bit biased because my profession is in restructuring and insolvency of companies. However, what has transpired here over the past 2 – 3 years makes a ton of sense in terms of restructuring a business during a time of financial distress and setting up a better business model for the future.
Of course, the conflict between what needs to be done financially and what you can tell the public is especially severe in a business of super-high media relevance like with a NY MLB team. Sure, more honesty would have made it easier for fans. However, when every ticket sold counts to be able to even meet payments would you expect your GM to state “We plan to be competitive” or would you expect your GM to state “We´re rebuilding & re-modeling and essentially punting the next couple of seasons – come again in 2014 when our restructuring is complete” ?
Pretty much every indication between 2010 and 2012 was that the Mets ownership group was in severe financial problems – and with multiple enteties at the same time: Sagging real-estate business, pending 1 billion $ lawsuit, a mediocre major league team with a high payroll that´s losing money, thus merely modest gains for the self-owned TV station and that in the aftermath of finding out that you don´t have 500 million $ in an account with friend Bernie Madoff.
If you combine those factors, it´s not too difficult to imagine the Mets running into severe cash flow issues during that time frame – and needing bridge loans from MLB, the sale of minority shares, etc.
However, looking at 2014, the MLB payroll – for now – has been cut by well over half it was compared to 2011. Revenue will be on the rise again thanks to a new National TV deal that´ll bring over 10 million $ for each MLB franchise, starting in 2014. The Picard case has long been settled in a very friendly way. The real estate market has picked up again. Longterm loans have been restructured at lower interest rates – with an additional payout of supposedly more than 150 million $. SNY figures to remain profitable. So, besides having a much higher chance to break even with the isolated Mets franchise, ownership now is able to help out again if needed or if it makes sense to increase the likelihood of future revenue.
On the Baseball side, the financial clock has basically been re-set. As of today, the projected 2014 payroll – even with arbitation & raises for Niese & Wright included – figures to be in the 50 to 55 million $ range. Actual payouts won´t be over 60 million $.
Let´s say you add 30 million $ in payroll via trades & free agency next off-season, the official 2014 payroll figures to be in the 85 million $ range. And if the team is contending again, revenue will rise going forward, opening up space for higher payrolls going forward.
Now, feel free to question whether Alderson & Co. will have the Baseball accumen to make the right additions when it counts. But the restructuring of the business side seems very evident.
But Dooby if your in that business does it REALLY make sense?
When restructuring a company do you lay off the folks who MAKE the product that brings in the revenue or do you pare down the middle and upper management, those salaries that do NOT generate revenue in hopes that by keeping the production going you will make enough to pay the bills and become solvent?
Even if you are forced to cut the staff on the production line do you cut the BEST MOST PRODUCTIVE workers who may get paid a bit more due to thier ability to produce and keep the non-producers who may save you money on payroll but cost you in revenue?
Thats what happened here!
As I have always said roughly 200K of attendance nets over 25 Mil of revenue.
So a guy like Beltran, Dickey, and Reyes if he draws 200K pays for himself and one other worker.
Lose them you not only lose that attendance but you lose the ability to pay someone else as well.
He may believe in building from within but he has hardly done that…
Wheeler – Outside prospect that cost an All Star
d’Arnaud – Outside prospect that cost an All Star
The only guys that came from within are hardly due to anything Sandy has done to build this team.
None of his Picks are even CLOSE to being part of this team and of his three highest picks only Nimmo is at a place where he won’t have to play out of position.
We traded away a Cy Young Pitcher to make Plawlecki nothing more than a backup
We drafted Cheech who at best will have to move to 2B and only if they trade Murphy.
Nimmo has not done much of anything towards progressing through the farm system.
Sure we have Pitchers…Yet nless you plan on going to a 10 man rotation your not going to get more than some Pen help.
We have an 11th overall pick this year….4 years from now that might serve as a building block fro within.
So anyone who thinks we are building from within MUST think this team is not going to compete for another 4 or 5 years.
And if you think we are going to go on some spending spree between then and now to accelerate then guess what…Your not really in favor of building from within either…
You just going back to the methods Omar used hoping that HIS rebuilding of the Minors left Sandy a better shot at doing what Omar did than what Omar had to work with.
Making all this crap you guys have been spouting at us utter BULL!
METSIE, SOMETIMES U HAVE TO LEARN HISTORY SO AS TO NOT REPEAT IT WHILE OTHER TIMES U CAN LEARN SUCCESSFUL WAYS FROM HISTORY, I AM ELUDING TO FRANK CASHEN’S DECISION TO TRADE HIS BIGGEST LOCAL CROWD PLEASER, ALLSTAR REP, LEE MAZZILLI FOR UNKNOWNS WALT TERRELL & RON DARLING MILKING A YR OF SATISFACTORY MLB PERFORMANCE OUT OF THE FIRST THAN MAGICALLY TURNING HIM INTO ANOTHER KEY INGREDIENT, HOJO.
METSIE IT TAKES YEARS NOT ONLY TO BUILD A MAJOR LEAGUE CONTENDER OUT OF FARMER’S STRAW; BUT ADDITIONAL YEARS IF THE FARM WAS NEGLECTED INTO A WASTELAND, POSITIONALLY, AS ABSENTEE WARLORED, PHILLIPS, PRACTICED FOR TOO MANY YEARS THEN HAMSTRINGING HIS SUCCESSOR, MINAYA, TO USING POOR QUALITY FERTILIZER(SIGNING BONUSES) THROUGH BLIND ADERENCE TO VOLUNTAREY SLOT RULES. EVEN AFTER BLOOD SACRIFICING ANYONE WHO BELIEVED THIS WAS GOING TO BE LESS THAN A 5Y U-TURN (CARNIVAL CRUISE? ANYONE?) WAS OBVIOUSLY PARTAKING IN ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES ALTERING THEIR LOGICAL THOUGHT PATTERNS [LMAO]
62 you can’t learn or benefit from history if you don’t remember it correctly or take the wrong lesson from it….
Cashen didn’t trade Mazz until after he had 5 top 5 draft picks in his system.
He also went after Foster and Kingman to try and get attendance up.
Hojo was NOT an ingredient in 86…Knight was the man that year….After the WS Cashen DID pull an Alderson…Your too old to pay, I’ll play Hojo, and let a leader of that WS team go and they never won another WS after that.
lol, Hojo blew Knight away in production in ’87.
Yeah it was so good they won the WS again right?
Oh Wait they didn’t….
Because they lost one of thier leaders who was key in getting that team to fight to the last out and the last roller through Buckners legs!
And then he was gone and no more World Series wins….
Right! All 5 starters missing significant time on the DL had nothing to do not winning the WS in 87.
nope, it was losing Ray Knight.
This from the guy who says the 2009 team having guys hurt doesn’t matter….
Note I didn’t just talk about 87 did I? I waas talking about 88 and 89 as well!
After Knight was gone they were no better than any team Omar built!
The Mets will never, ever be a winning team with the Wilpons in charge. I hate to say it because I have been a Mets fan for close to 40 years. But that’s a fact.
Tuck, define winning..? Under Omar Minaya the mets had 4 straight winning seasons, while bad luck, injuries and unclutchness derailed those dreams we were a winning team who at the end came up short
Under Phillips was 4 straight winning seasons, Including a WS berth.
Now, if you’re talking about NOW, then i’d have to agree…
The Phillips Mets had Nelson Doubleday as part owner. He had $ and kept Fred & his son in check. The Minaya Mets included many of the players who were there when Doubleday owned the team. Since the Wilpons have been in charge on their own, the place has been a mess. This would have been the case even if the Madoff situation had never happened. I just don’t think they have the intelligence to run an effective winning team. I may be proven wrong but I highly doubt it.
Phillips built those 99/00 teams largely via very smart trades and the clown that said that the Steve Phillips FO was terrible has no idea what the hell he is talking about. The Mets finish in the post season 2 consecutive years under Steve Phillip’s watch and the front office is terrible?
David Wright, Angel Pagan & Jose Reyes are signed/found under Phillip’s watch and his front office is terrible? Even during the 2001 season when Piazza hit that dramatic 9/11 HR during a late season PENNANT RUN. And his front office is terrible?
The complete garbage that fans come up with all in the name of an unproven current administration is mind boggling and only causes some people who’ve been around to witness those past Mets exciting runs to resent the current administration even more.
Tuck,
Fair enough
TSK,TSK,TSK PERHAPS MY BEST CAUSE FOR CONCERN OVER THIS LIAR,LIAR PANTS ON FIRE MOMENT CAN BE EXPLAINED IN A NOTE I SENT EARLIER THIS MORNING TO A SMALL GROUP OF FAMILY & FELLOW FANS AS WELL AS THE POST’S KEN DAVIDOF, I WHICH I OPINED…
___________________________________________________________________________
Next step: put money where his mouth is – NYPOST.com THE SECOND HALF OF THIS ARTICLE THAT BEGINS WITH THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH…
“There’s no one in family — there’s the Katz family, the Wilpon family, the kids — no one has any personal debt. Zero. Everything has been paid. We don’t owe a dollar to anybody,” Wilpon said as the 2013 Mets held their first official workout for pitchers and catchers. “That’s what made us tight. We were still getting lots of revenues, but those revenues were going to pay off debt. That’s done.”
IS WHERE I BEGIN TO BELIEVE FRED’S PANTS BEGAN SMOULDERING JUST PRIOR TO BURSTING INTO A CONFLAGRATION RIVALED BY THE BIG BEAR CABIN THAT BROUGHT AN END TO THE POLICE ASSASSIN,DONNER, IN CALIFORNIA.
THOUGH THE ARTICLE’S AUTHOR, KEN DAVIDOFF, PAYS LIP SERVICE TO SOME DEFERRED PMTS DUE JASON BAY, HE COMPLETELY DISREGARDS THE HUGE $25-30+M DEFECIT IN DEFERRED PMTS PAYABLE @ $5-6M PER YEAR FROM 2015 THROUGH 2019 DUE JOHAN SANTANA AS HIS INITIAL JEFF WILPON STRUCTURED CONTRACT CALLED FOR “$5M DEFERRED ANNUALLY @ 1.25% COMPOUND INTEREST (PAYABLE JUNE 30 SEVEN YEARS After season in which salary was earned)”
AS THE FIRST SEASON RELEGATED TO DEFERAL WAS 2008 REPAYMENT CONTRACTULLY COMMENCES JUKLY 1, 2015 & WILL RUN THROUGH 2020 A TOTAL OF 6Y INCLUSIVELY, THAT’S A WHIOPPING $30M + INTEREST.
STERLING ENTERPRISES, AS MANY AUTHORS OF DEFERRED PMT CONTRACTS DO,OPENED AN ESCROW ACCOUNT BEARING >1.25% COMPOUND INTEREST AS A MEANS OF MAKING MONEY ON THE DEFERMENT AS THEY’D DONE IN THE PAST WITH BONILLA, GLAVINE, BELTRAN & BAY WHILE THE ESCROW ACCOUNTS WERE INTENDED TO MAKE THESE DEFERAL PYMENTS PAINLESS & EVEN PROFITABLE, IT’S BEEN REPORTED, UNFORTUNATELY THAT THESE LUCRATIVE ACCOUNTS WERE HELD BY BERNIE MADOFF WITH BERNIE’S PROMISE OF HIGH YIELDING INTEREST. AS WE ALL KNOW BY NOW, THESE ACCOUNTS HAVE GONE POOF!
I BEIEVE FRED HAS EITHER FORGOTTEN THESE “INSURANCE” ACCOUNTS WERE AMONG HIS LOSSES OR HE’S BELIEVING THAT SINCE STERLING REC’D EACH PLAYERS ACQUIESCENCE AS TO WHERE THE INVESTMENT WAS PLACED THAT THE PLAYERS & NOT STERLING SHOULD BE VIEWED AS THE VICTIMS OF TOTAL LOSS. I, FOR ONE, DO NOT BELIEVE THE COURT SYSTEM WILL BE SO INCLINED AS, THE PLAYERS’ LEGAL REPS WILL LIKELY PORTRAY; IT WAS STERLING THAT MOST LIKELY REPRESENTED THESE ACCOUNTS AS A SAFE INVESTMENT. THUS THE MADOFF SCANDAL WILL LIVE IN LITIGOUS HISTORY AD INFINITUM. AS “THE GANG THAT COULDN’T SHOOT STRAIGHT” STEERS THE COURSE FOR THIS JEWEL MLB FRANCHISE PLAYING “BUMPER CARS” WITH NEARLY EVERY WARNING BUOY.
‘ no one has any personal debt. Zero. Everything has been paid. We don’t owe a dollar to anybody’
LOL – I think Fred’s idea of debt is different than mine.
In any case, I really cannot relate.
Fred’s net worth is hundreds of millions. The debt of his companies is not the same as personal debt. Why would Fred Wilpon finance his new BMW when he doesn’t have to. He owns his $5 million dollar home outright. Do you know of any personal debt discounting utility bills?
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/12/is-mets-financial-situation-better-than-whats-been-reported.html
‘The debt of his companies is not the same as personal debt’
This. Which is why I thought it a strange statement.
Why would Met fans care about the Wilpon’s personal debt? Maybe it’s just me, but all I really care about is the financial state of the team.
I forgot to mention it in my first reply, but for the ones that always mention his personal debt, how can they prove it? How do they know he has personal debt? It’s so silly, really.
This.
It’s not like the Wilpons have ever used any of their personal wealth to fund the Mets team. Not that I’m aware of anyway.
Liars.
Reading a Newsday article about Wilpon’s comments yesterday and came across this:
‘Though he acknowledged gaping holes in the outfield, Wilpon said that the strength of the pitching staff gives him hope that the Mets could be a surprise contender. And if that’s the case, Alderson should have the flexibility to make moves.’
Reads to me like if the Mets don’t have a better year in terms of revenue, there won’t be that much flexibility to spend in the off season. Wilpon was quoted as saying the goal is for the team to break even. If it’s another down year, we shouldn’t expect much?
Sigh…
“Additionally, no matter what the Mets owner says, there are those who will always feel comfortable sitting on their “Mets Are Broke” pots. They are comfortable on their pots and have no desire to put down their magazines, get up from their pots, and flush. There’s nothing I or anyone else can say to convince those few – who are now in the minority.” ~~~ Joe D.
definitely had YOU in mind. Another FRAUD who behaves under guise of what she perceives as objectivity when it’s anything but.
No good can come from me conversing with you.
Moving on….
You know what. I have no desire to converse with you either but there are some things that i feel need to be said and besides, this is the 2nd time you gave me that response and while I am glad you don’t want to converse cuz i have no desire of the same i can’t help but feel you’re 2 identical responses are because of the same reason. you HAVE no come back because I am 100% correct. You ARE a fraud.
And another thing, if you don’t have anything to say then don’t waste everybody’s time here saying “you don’t have anything to say” because all that does is push back someone else’s more thought-out post-related response off the recent comments list.
And that’s something you are your brethren over at the desert are famous for here on this blog. You guys, more than anyone else, always push back more important or more though out responses by fans on both sides of the fence with your little meaningless thoughts that need not by typed and your little personal jokes among each other that for some reason you like to share out here, boring the readers while pushing back important, relevant comments from other readers off the recent comments section.
I repeat:
No good can come from me conversing with you.
‘I have no desire to converse with you either…’
Mission accomplished.
because you have no comeback.
“Additionally, no matter what the Mets owner says, there are those who will always feel comfortable sitting on their “Mets Are Broke” pots. They are comfortable on their pots and have no desire to put down their magazines, get up from their pots, and flush. There’s nothing I or anyone else can say to convince those few – who are now in the minority.”
That is YOU he’s talking about.
In case you somehow don’t understand:
I repeat:
No good can come from me conversing with you.
and in case somehow YOU don’t understand that he’s talking about YOU here:
Additionally, no matter what the Mets owner says, there are those who will always feel comfortable sitting on their “Mets Are Broke” pots. They are comfortable on their pots and have no desire to put down their magazines, get up from their pots, and flush. There’s nothing I or anyone else can say to convince those few – who are now in the minority.
And you CAN’T defend it because he’s right. And AGAIN i thought we were done but yet you chose to push back important comments by other people off the Recent Comments section by posting something that did not need to be posted.
That is, unless of course when pushed you are another one of those “last person standing” arguers only you have no substance to offer.
Stop trying to bully people and for once just shut up. You often make the comment that you don’t want others to reply to you and then get your undies in a wad when they do and now you are doing the same thing. Also aren’t you also pushing down intelligent comments with your own crap? Just do what Alex did and move on.
and YOU stay out of it. Here we go again.
Go mind your own house instead of free loading around here.
Well at least I got your attention off of blatantly attacking SRT who is actually too nice of a person to ever put trash like you in the dumpster.
you must have a woody now that i actually gave you a little time:
Yeah i really bullied and blatantly attacked here when I used this paragraph to show how much she’s been full of you-know-what:
“Additionally, no matter what the Mets owner says, there are those who will always feel comfortable sitting on their “Mets Are Broke” pots. They are comfortable on their pots and have no desire to put down their magazines, get up from their pots, and flush. There’s nothing I or anyone else can say to convince those few – who are now in the minority.”
how horrible of me, what a bully.
I’m bully for being right and proving one of you dirt bags wrong. TRS go back to your desert you PUNK. And that’s what you are, you’re a PUNK and that’s why in reality you have a hobby that a few of your friends like, not a blog. Now I’m done with you and it’s time to get back to baseball. Now you can go back and push relative, informative comments off the Recent comments section with nondescript, whiny little off topic barbs that you and your 7 friends specialize in.
who is actually too nice of a person to ever put trash like you in the dumpster.”
How do you know she’s nice? do you know her? what about you? why don’t you stay out of this one and let HER handle it however she wants… Or maybe let Joe D step in. you need to realize this ain’t your blog and you cannot boss nor order people around… stop you dushery ways….
Alex, how do I know her? I know her because like with you I have been commenting with her for about 7-8 years and I have yet to see her personally attack anyone. Thus when someone like Bay bullies her around, many of us take up for her.
So while this isn’t my blog? When someone attacks my friends? Just as you do, I fire back.
Actually, I wasn’t even thinking of SRT when I wrote that. I was referring to Mr. Megdal who posted his rebuttal on Wilpon yesterday at Capital. I didn’t want to mention by name him because the last time I did that it ended up turning into a prolonged and protracted public battle on Twitter between me and him. I didn’t want that to happen again. I wrote those words with him in mind and anyone who would subscribe to his continued insistence that the Mets are in trouble, SNY is in trouble, and that the Wilpons and Katz are personally in trouble.
Oh, now I have to go over and read what Megdal had to say….
well you can say that and whether you mean it or not is another story but there’s no denying she’s part of that group and you know it but you will never admit it out here.
Joe, I think you’ve just been accused of lying.
You want to let it go or do you not want to let it go? And he has in the past so what’s it to YOU?
Again, why the need for a personal response when all you’re doing is boring the readers and pushing back relevant comments that other people spend time on and deserve to be read all for the sake of your nondescript, clannish, personal barbs.
“Additionally, no matter what the Mets owner says, there are those who will always feel comfortable sitting on their “Mets Are Broke” pots. They are comfortable on their pots and have no desire to put down their magazines, get up from their pots, and flush. There’s nothing I or anyone else can say to convince those few – who are now in the minority.”
You.
Yup, while the Mets needed two loans so not to default on payments, Fred had the $38 million necessary to put into the club as well – a combined $103 million in less than one year.
Know Howie is not a big fan of some here but the points he makes in the attached are well worth noting:
http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/sports/2013/02/7740844/wilpon-puts-mets-money-woes-rear-view-mirror-all-evidence-contrary
Those are not really points at this stage of the game. More like the tom-toms he’s been beating for three years and whose sound is becoming fainter and fainter as more and more people turn a deaf ear to him. Not one thing he’s said has come to pass and nothing ever will on this matter. The whistle blower, bankruptcy by 2013, $1 billion slam dunk lawsuit, CRG= bankruptcy sale, not selling all the team shares, nothing.
Frankly, I’m surprised that one as intellectually astute as yourself is still tuned into him. And you can tell him I said that if you like.
Sometimes you want something so bad, in this case the Wilpons out, that you’ll believe anything that would convey that sentiment. It’s called wishful thinking. However, wishing upon a star only worked in Pinocchio and Cinderella.
Joe D.,
Your assessment of the current (not last year or when Reyes was a FA) financial state of Sterling/Mets is accurate. Your comments are on point. The net book value of the team/TV station is in excess of $1 billion. That is after debt. The math is easy and can be done with information that is public. Now, the team may make money or lose money this year, but even if they lose it will not put the ownership in jeopardy. Like it or not the Wilpons are in control for the forseeable future. To make the team reaturn to being profitable, or as Fred likes to say, breakeven, they need to increase balpark and TV revenues through on the field performance – winning. It’s really pretty simple.
As far as spending money just to spend money, I don’t consider signing a proven closer, even one with issues, to be spending money just for the sake of spending money. Alderson could and should have tremendous leverage over Valverde, Wilson, and or K-Rod. Signing any would make the pen stronger, not weaker, by bumping someone fron the front end, not the back end of the pen. If Parnell can outpitch any of them and FF, fin, he gets to close. This is not the CF or RH power situation – upgrades are still available. To ignore any of these moves and risk, once again, blowing games if Parnell is not up to the task and FF pitches like he did in 2012, or is hurt, is inexcusable from a GM that says he wants to compete this year and has money.
HI Joe D.
It’s not the conclusions he makes but the circumstances he refers to that I’m noting. Even if he is twisting things for ulterior motives those are points nevertheless that have to be tackled if anything to prove him wrong.
Hey, thanks for calling me intellectually astute – as you know, I’ve been called quite the opposite from one or two around here.
We shall see if Sandy can win with a $100mm payroll–something he never had in Oakland or SD. i think he can, and i think the makeup of this team over next few years will be primarily comprised of young guys making the minimum (or closr to it) + Niese, Ike, Murph, Parnell & a few more Arb-eligible guys + DW. Can we win with that? All depends on the caliber ‘of the help’.
Joe D.
As I previously pointed most of us wanted Jon Daniels as GM. Seliq shoved Sandy on us to even the playing field i.e. large market NY vs. small market Brewers. That said in half jest. Call it redistribution. Tax the wealthy owners. Back to my point who has Jon Daniels signed. He lost Josh Hamilton and Mike Napoli. Jon Daniels and Nolan Ryan have signed zilch. They are a shovel ready team. Meanwhile we are buried in mediocrity at best. I have come to the conclusion it does not matter whose fault it is. The Buck has stopped except for John Buck. Whose fault at this point I really don’t give a dam. It has to end and we are not getting new owners or a new GM unless the Pope, Sandy Alderson retires. Black smoke and mirrors.
Hi Joe D.,
Absolutely correct – it never mattered if we got John Daniels or Sandy Alderson as it does that the Mets were (and still are) in a tremendous financial mess which caused the destruction of this organization.
Don’t know how Daniels comes across to the fanbase – whether they feel he is being somewhat honest with them about things. There is no doubt that a lot of the reason for losing the fan base was the lack of credibility on the part of the Wilpons and Sandy. They went to extreme measures to make it appear that all their moves were part of some extremely well-thought out plan for re-building. As we all know, re-buildng comes with many parts and without making other moves to supplement the younger players, all it really comes down to stockpiling the team as inexpensively as possible. That’s what separated the Giants, Reds, Nationals and Tigers from Kasas City, Pittsburgh, San Diego and Oakland (up to last year).
Hi Joey:
As I repeatedly say we can’t forget the Picard Lawsuit just a year ago. Howvever as Joe D. points out the Wilpon’s fortunes have changed for the better. The clock is running on Sandy Alderson this off season as opposed to liquidation during the Madoff aftermath. A GM has to balance long and short term goals. 2013 is indeed a punt year make no mistake about that. Will spending resume in 2014? I am skeptical but it remains to be seen.
I expect someone to say spend wisely. That is true BUT with no good FA in 2014 this was the year some commitments beside DW should have been made. It’s on Sandy’s shoulders NOW.
Hi Hotstreak,
Glad you are skeptical but this is why many of have been and still are:
1) Many of us have shown that there is a difference between the Wilpons’ personal finances along with there being a difference between that and the overall economic health of Sterling Equities and that as opposed to each of Sterling Equities individual holdings – which includes the New York Mets.
While the Mets needed $65 million in 2011 in the form of two loans so not to default on it’s end of the month obligations, they also needed an infuse of $38 million from Fred Wilpon which made it a total $103 million required to carry out operations. While the Mets needed that amount to stay solvent, Sterling Equities was willing to pay the City $100 million to acquire the land oposite Citi Field that September of that year. They were also going into a joint $3 billion venture with other partners to construct an entertainment center.
http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/8916663/new-york-mets-reportedly-wanted-casino-next-citi-field
So life went on well for Sterling Equities while it wasn’t so with the New York Mets fiscally.
And it was a year ago we were told with the Madoff thing settled, the Mets could free up money and spend more. They didn’t. So the Madoff situation can no longer be used as a reason for no longer spending since they didn’t since then.
And that a few months before the settlement, didn’t Sandy say he wasn’t going to use up all he had budgeted for in order to have as contingency during the summer if additional player moves were required? None were made, either as the Mets were trying to stay alive in the wild card race and then felt “kicked in the teeth” that nothing was done.
And the re-financing was being approved last Fall so the Mets knew they would have more working capital over this winter which could have been used for trades and free-agent signings. Those weren’t made either. And of course, there is the fact that they never tried to contest that CBA ruling until it became too late to sign anybody (Bourn was not going to wait around after signing a contract to see if it would be validated).
Hi Joey:
I agree and in fact said that in the paragraph to my my post:
“I expect someone to say spend wisely. That is true BUT with no good FA in 2014 this was the year some commitments beside DW should have been made. It’s on Sandy’s shoulders NOW.”
Metsie kudos to you on Victorino suggestion as Alderson should have been signed him 3 years 39 M and traded if him as you said if Nimmo develops earlier.
Many a time a I have said Sandy’s clock is running effective THIS off season as the Wilpon’s finances have recovered. I hope you realize I am neither a SA lover or hater but it is getting late early and its all on Sandy’s shoulders. Again a GM has to do both short term and long term goals. Steve Phillips did short term exclusively and SA looks like he neglected the short term and lies that he is not punting in 2013.
Thanks Hotstreak…
Time will ll if I’m right about that or not but I think it was worth the risk.
while it may seem high for the production he had last year it’s right inline with what he was doing before the Phillie linup was decimated and he was moved around.
.275BA, 320OBP and HRs in the teens is well worth 13 Mil per, the defense is not in question, he has a bit of speed, switch hits (removing the need to platoon and adds experience and stability to the OF.
If they can’t afford a player like him at 13 Mil per the next three years then they don’t have the money to spend on anyone else the next three years either!
Which means we will not have an OF until Nimmo gets here and even THAT is a big IF!
If Nimmo comes early you can get something for a guy like Victorino, maybe not a Wheeler but if he is a piece of a trade that involves someone like Flores and some of those pitchers we have in A and AA even Stanton is a possibility in a year or two where his value will not be what it might be today.
Very interesting read i found about chemistry, sabermetrics and Oakland… Sabergooners won’t be too happy:
http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2013/02/14/jonny-gomes-on-dc-theres-no-sabermetrics-for-chemistry/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Well as a coach myself, I understand the effects of team chemistry. There certainly are things that contribute to a team other than stats. However, many cases that team chemistry will actually improve stats just as at times performance on the field improves chemistry.
Hey TRS, I wanted to email you about something and I accidentally emailed someone else believing it was you this morning. Can you email me at GetMetsmerized@aol.com?
Done.
Do you coach baseball or basketball? Because, in basketball is different than in baseball.. when there’s no cohiveness and no chemistry, you see teams fall apart on the court, talent always help of course, but even then you need to develop chemistry in basketball regardless. my point in which i posted this, it’s that as a baseball club, chemistry can be a huge booster in one morale, trust me, if a player is great but it’s willing to get along with the guys around them who are not as good, and is willing to help and guide them it can be beneficiary to them in learning how to win, that is why guys like keith and carter where instrumental to us winning during the 80′s and the difference with us losing during this past 4 years…
Primarily basketball but I have coached some baseball as well. I would say that chemistry is much more important in basketball on the court than baseball on the field but I would say that clubhouse chemistry is much more important in baseball than basketball.
cohiveness of the clubhouse helps.. sure… but again, the talent needs to be there as well, for every one year of a good side story of the A’s, there’s 5 losing seasons in between and 20 + losing years of the pirates and royals…
Oh either side talent is #1. LOL.
I guess what I am saying is on the field baseball is much more individual events that combine into one where basketball has a constant flow where bad chemistry on the court can make a good team lose by 20. However, in the locker room you just don’t spend as much time together or especially on bench compared to the dugout.
I mean the best players on a basketball team only sit beside of each other during a game during a blow out. Baseball it happens every inning.
who cares about the families debt? Mrs. Wilpon wasn’t paying Jason Bay’s salary along with the maid and butler each month out of her household account!
It was always about the team (in the broader context of Sterling Mets and the myriad of holding companies). that is where all the major debt resided, and whatever is left still has to be covered, along with all the other operating expenses.
to me though, the key points were about ROI, and the biggie, the team needed to break even (at least he still is not trying to take profits out, which the family debt-free could certainly help).
So, if they are not breaking even, it is fantastic for everyone. Assuming they are turning a profit in the future, that will allow the payroll to increase. If all the refinancing helped get rid of some of the huge debts coming due, that also frees up more revenue to go into ongoing operations such as payroll.
But, Fred never said there was some unlimited payroll. And just because Sandy asks them for some extra $ amount, doesn’t mean they will give it to him (the whole “when the GM asks we evaluate” trick to having no budget cap!)
Did Sandy sit on some of his 2013 allotment? Must have, if they were in on bourn. But, he is also on record as saying he was holding some back, so it does set them up to be able to grab a salary dump mid-season if needed. otherwise, it can help pay down more overhead, and carry forward into 2014.
What Wilpon is telling fans, in a rather inartful way, is to forget about 2013 because we have a last place transitional team, that things will improve in 2014 with probably a 3rd place team,and maybe with some luck, we might make the playoffs in 2015. It’s really sad that a Brooklyn-born owner does not think like a New Yorker. He has no vision, no boldness, no ability to inspire. When he says a Mets rebound is near, as he did yesterday, how come no one believes him? Because he has lost credibility. You’ve reached the bottom when you can’t even lie well.
Hi Marco,
And to forget about 2013 isn’t what Sandy was telling us yesterday with Francesa:
“I’m a little frustrated that we didn’t get that piece that would bridge us from where we are to where we think we’re gonna be. Somebody who would have helped is in 2013 as well as ’14 and ’15. As I’ve said, I don’t think we’re that far away. And with a couple of pieces in the outfield and what else we have coming up, I don’t think we’re that far away. When you miss out on one (Bourn/Upton) like that, or come close on one, it’s a little bit frustrating.”
I’m convinced Sandy was just again saying things he believes the fan base wants to hear to evade the real motives of his actions in which you properly point out.
Isn’t there a difference between the ability to spend and the desire to spend wisely?
Just because you get $100 to spend doesn’t mean you have to go buy an over priced product right?
I think that is a big misconception people are having. For example I keep hearing that “next year” the Mets will be judged on the $ they spend. That’s dumb. If we are to assume for a second (big assumption) that the Mets needed in pre-2014 are mostly OF based then have you seen the crop of OF’s avail? Ellsbury, Pence and everybody else.
Just because they HAVE money to get Bourn doesn’t mean they have to compromise their views on how to spend $ to get him.
I would have liked Bourn for 3 with a 4th option and no pick lost. But it didn’t happen. He essentially got a 5th year and I don’t think he’s going to be a starting OF for anybody in 2016 let alone 2017.
Well define WISE spending?
What is the worst waste?
1 Player at 12 Million who can produce or 6 players at 2 Mil apiece that don’t?
Cause we have a lot of guys signed that are cheap but there is a reason why they are that cheap….
They aren’t worth paying at all!
Your hoping that we are smarter than the rest of the league and can make something out of a player someone else could make anything out of and didn’t even want to try anymore!
Usually when you think your smarter than everyone else and decide you will do better than the other guy in polishing a turd all you get are a bunch of shiny turds that are not worth having unless you have a turd museum to display them in.
You don’t have to pay one player a LOT of money to waste money….
You can pay MANY player a little money that when it is all added up wastes the same amout or MORE!
Because the one guy must be popular enough to give someone hope to buy a ticket at least.
Jessep:
I am coming into this discussion late in the game.
Spending wisely is cost vs. benefit.
If you have a glaring need especially CF and need speed, defensive ability and a lead off spot to fill and the player is at FNV and your not curtailing a legitimate player (Kirk is not the answer that is my judgement) then you sign that player, Victorino for only three years 39 M commitmentent who would have helped 2013 and beyond. NImmo would be ready then. That is planning.
JESS, U R SPOT ON Re FOOLISH SPENDING; HOWEVER I’VE READ NO ANALYSIS POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS IMPORTANCE OF THAT #11 PICK AS MORE THAN LIKELY REPRESENTING THE BEST DRAFT POSITION WE’LL HOLD FOR YEARS TO COME IF ALDERSON BELIEVES IN HIS PLAN FIRST OFF PRESUMING OUR 4th PLACE FINISH WITH A LIKELY SIMILAR RECORD & DRAFTING POSITION AFTER THIS SEASON WITH MUCH MORE TO DO, & THE NEWLY REVISED SPENDING POLICY, THE LIKELIHOOD OF SURRENDERING OUR NEXT FIRST ROUNDER DUE TO F/A SIGNING & PLANS FOR 2014 & BEYOND WOULD CERTAINLY DICTATE A RATHER POOR FIRST ROUND DRAFTING POSITION & SO ON THROUGH ENSUING YEARS.
IF THIS IS LIKELY YOUR LAST BITE OF THE FIRST ROUND APPLE FOR YEARS TO COME DO U USE IT TO GET BOURNE @ A PREMIUM PRICE? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!!!!!!!
Hi Joe,
Most important, hope everything went well with your tests yesterday at the hospital.
As far as the Wilpon/Alderson dispute, the one thing we all know is that the Wilpons liked to spend – recklessly perhaps for some, unwise for others, – but they liked spending.
Spending is part of their behavior. Sandy is the complete opposite of Fred and Jeff.
We can agree that perhaps this marriage of the odd couple was a shotgun wedding forced on them by Bud Selig thus born out of necessity. That the necessity might now be over, as you contend, it can then be looked at in terms that they just simply cannot head toward divorce court with two-years remaining on that prenuptial agreement (with an option for a third).
You give as clues:
“Bringing back the GCL team, giving Wright the richest deal in team history, the refinanced SNY loan, money pouring in from Madoff settlement that has dropped their net liability… These are not all fabrications, they are factual, tangible and very real.”
Amazin’ Avenue also agreed with your assessment a few months back PRIOR to GCL came back and David was re-signed.
http://www.amazinavenue.com/2012/9/26/3405872/mets-crg-finance-bankruptcy
But there are other pieces of tangible evidence that can also lead to other conclusions as well. As we know, sending off David Wright would have almost guaranteed Citi Field being a ghost town this coming season – though it’s going to be close to that anyway. But that, I will admit, is conjecture only. What we do know is:
- With both the CRG audit completed and across-the-board re-structuring having been put in place by Sandy, the Wilpons had to turn to SNY for re-financing after the Mets were rejected by financial institutions who deemed the franchise too much an investment risk.
- The Mets lost $70 million in 2011, estimated $23 million in 2012, had to take out two loans totaling $65 million and Fred Wilpon had to put $38 million of his own pocket into the team during the 2011 season. That totals approximately $190 million – just about the same amount they got by selling minority shares.
The shares made up for the losses and loans (both by MLB and Wilpon himself) and thus did not infuse any new money into the organization as it did decrease the added debt and wiped out the annual financial losses.
- Getting back to the Mets now being on more firmer fiscal ground, how much of that has to be due to the cost-savings measures that Sandy implemented with both roster payroll and non-baseball matters which must now be adhered to considering the limited revenue brought in by attendance?
- If majority ownership of SNY brings in the real money for the Wilpons as far as owning the Mets is concerned, then WHY DID WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE PAST TWO YEARS TO BEGIN WITH? As the attached indicates, teams base their fiscal investments on the money they get from either the selling of television rights or owning their own RSN. And, what Sterling Equities wants to do with it’s portion of the profit share is their own business, not that of Time Warner and Comcast (or is it is necessary to re-invest a portion of those profits back into SNY?).
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/20/sports/regional-sports-networks-show-teams-the-money.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
- And Sandy still works for the Wilpons, not the other way around. With it becoming evident within the organization last Fall that their financial footing was becoming more stable with the re-financing negotiations, the CRG audit, better returns on other investments outside of just SNY, it appears Fred and Jeff were in agreement with the way Sandy was handling the team, Sandy and his people did not go into the free agent market to try to get those players that could help the team in it’s current position. Recognizing a mini-gold mine with the relationship R.A. had with the fans, they could have also told Sandy to re-sign Dickey instead of having it known that R.A. was available to the highest bidder.
Is a question of the general manager now controlling the owner? Again, being the type of people they are, the last thing the Wilpons would want happen if they had the fiscal means to prevent it was to go into spring training with the outfield and bullpen that we have now. And it’s not like their financial turn-around suddenly happened overnight – we know things turn upward on a slow but steady curve.
Is it possible Fred’s recent public statements were more for show and that our skepticism comes from the Wilpons possibly still needing Sandy – or at least now needing to adhere to the operation he put into place?