11
2013
Featured Post: Hope Springs Eternal For The Mets
An article by Andrew O'Brien
Everybody has a chance in March
It’s a cliché, but it is always worth mentioning: Hope springs eternal.
And it’s never truer than with baseball. As we sip our coffee — and some of you shovel snow in the northeast — on this final Sunday before pitchers and catcher report, cool breezes and temperatures in the mid-70s welcome the start of Spring Training.
Really, this is the best time of the year, in my opinion. For the next six weeks, all teams — and fans — think they have a shot at the postseason, or better. And there is no reason to think otherwise.
No team has enjoyed wins or suffered losses yet. For the most part, teams are healthy — or healthier, at least compared to last year.
And then there are all those fancy offseason moves that general managers have done.
For the Mets, it’s a little bit of everything.
There hasn’t been a whole lot of hope since 2006. But I think a lot of Mets fans sense success is coming, and it might not be as far as we think.
This Spring Training, to me, marks the first spring out of the Omar Minaya era — notably Jason Bay and Mike Pelfrey.
The Mets starting rotation has huge upside if it can stay healthy. That if is a huge question mark, but when isn’t it? Of course, Zack Wheeler is chomping at the bit to make his splash in the big leagues, as are all fans.
The bullpen, although they are always a crapshoot, has been revamped. It needed to be after last season, when it allowed one of the worst ERAs in Major League Baseball.
While the outfield remains a question mark (including if the Mets sign Michael Bourn), the team has locked up David Wright for the long term. Ike Davis likely won’t have as bad a first half as he did last season. Daniel Murphy has yet another season under his belt. Everyone wants to see what Travis d’Arnaud will do. I mean, how excited will it be to have a catcher who can produce at the plate, not just behind the plate?
There are a lot of things that need to happen for the Mets to compete for the postseason. (The fact that they likely play in one of the best divisions in baseball doesn’t help).
To me, they are on the border of coming out of rebuilding and into contending. But every team is a contender on Feb. 11.
Side note: Because I live in Florida and will be heading south to Port St. Lucie a few times over the coming weeks, follow me on Twitter at @aobrien7.
About the Author: Andrew O'Brien
Andrew is the associate editor of the Palm Coast Observer, in Palm Coast, Fla. I love the Mets and have a particular fondness for the minors. I look forward to covering them both for MMO. Follow me on Twitter @aobrien7. I love interacting with followers
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The veterans competing to extend their careers will be a dynamic story. I wonder if they will have the effect of arrested salary development on some of younger players. I predict that no non roster prospects will make the team this year. Too much of a roster crunch to risk our future at the waiver wire.
The goal for this team should be to finish strong without rushing the kids.
I agree, Jerseymet, especially some of the older players in the bullpen. I don’t want the younger prospects rushed either. But I think fans and the organization realize they have some young, talented players who are not far away, and so, as a fan, this is a pretty interesting time.
It’s certainly a lot better than the past six or seven years, that’s for sure.
These journeymen players could slow down the the pipeline to Queens. This could be GREAT for the 51′s. Lots of legitimate talent at AAA. When is the last time that happened? Could our Kids learn the skill of winning ball games? Now that would be new.
No kidding … the starting rotation should be really good.
I’m liking that staff too. The bats will be a problem though. I see Spin and maybe Kirk going west. If Kirk can’t hit lefty’s let him learn by playing every day; and oh yeah slow down his pay clock. We don’t have to use the kids as DL replacements; we can use the Journeymen. They know how to play the game at a major league level. The question is can they still do it. If we lose them to the waiver wire…I wish them well.
Better than 2006-2008? An untested future is better than the last 6 or 7 years? What does that mean? You were going crazy rooting for the team during those pennant races and unfortunately the Mets got beat out by other teams for the ultimate prize those years, is that why an unseen, untested, unproven future is better? Because you’re mad you lost?
It’s February 10 and you’re saying this is better than the last 6 or 7 years? It’s no way better than the excitement and eventual heartbreak……..AT THE TIME…..of 2006-2008
It’s not better. Nothing has happened yet so it’s not better unless you put stock in an early February manic attack because spring training is near.
I’m also interested in seeing what all the hype is with Wheeler and d’Arnaud but MORE importantly and more immediate is watching Matt Harvey first. The hopefully Ike Davis busts out early. Maybe Duda will finally turn it around, maybe Parnell will find himself, etc.
There are a lot of other things that must fall into place too before either of those 2 kids come up and who knows? They may BOTH make it out of spring training.
And this “Rush the kids” thing seems to be some kind of imaginary, built in excuse thing that fans must latch onto because I don’t see anybody being rushed and i’m covering BOTH administrations – Omar’s & the other guy. The only time i can think of that somebody was unfairly rushed maybe was when Mejia was brought up. Fernando Martinez had to come up a little early because not only Beltran was hurt but I believe one or two of his backups got hurt as well and a rookie coming up to fill in in an emergency is as old as the hills and nothing new.
Mike Pelfrey was NOT rushed and I never heard he was rushed from any official or mainstream sources either. He’d be the same no matter what.
Nobody is being rushed and nobody is going to be rushed. If Wheeler and d’Arnaud both show they are ready during ST and the current administration feels it’s time then it’s time. Nobody is being rushed.
Everything — right now — is better than anything, because nothing has happened yet. That’s what I’m saying.
Pelfrey was rushed. Before his first ML start he only had 96 IP in the minors. The following year he only had 80 more in the minors. Normally college pitchers get 200-300 minor league IPs before the settle in in MLB.
“The only time I can think of that someone was maybe rushed was Mejia”
MAYBE?? Omar and Manuel nearly ruined Mejia. He had no business being in an mlb bullpen at that point and it was a desperate last ditch effort from those guys to save they’re jobs..
Flores has been rushed as well. Maybe not to the point that it has negatively effected his development, but it has definately effected his value. He played against guys 2 years older than him every year…If he played in an appropriate league for his age each year he would have mashed and been a top 25 prospect right now.
Flores is not being rushed. Nobody is being rushed. “Being rushed” is this new fan thing.
I don’t agree with the second part but yeah Flores wasn’t (and isn’t being) rushed. I think its good to push someone like him with tons of talent, as long as you don’t overdue it and pull a Jerry Manuel.
Plenty of players have been rushed and you know that. Pelfrey and Mejia are just two of many examples. And it’s a good point about Flores. I don’t know if I agree, but it’s valid. The longstanding excuse for how long Flores struggled was because he consistently played against older kids. It’s a fair point that he didn’t really impress till his age 20 season.
No I don’t know that and don’t put words in my mouth. I’ve been on this site saying for a LONG time that I don’t believe in all this “rush” crap and have had arguments with Maniac and others about it. The only player that I can think of was Mejia and I do not believe that Pelfrey was rushed and unless you can provide a link from an official source saying it that’s the only way that I can be convinced that he may have been rushed. Until then it’s all fan fodder/speculation with this “rush” business. The other case is maybe F-Mart but like I said before, Beltran and one or two backups got hurt back then so they called Fernando up and there’s nothing unusual about that either.
Nobody is being rushed. And until i hear/see it in print about a certain player than i stand firm that nobody is being rushed. It’s all imaginary in the minds of some fans.
There’s never going to be an official source. The mets aren’t going to come out and say “oh yeah about Mejia, we screwed up and brought him up way too early.” But just because they don’t tell us doesn’t mean its not extremely obvious. you don’t need an official source to see this.
I think it was pretty clear Pelf was rushed and it seems to be a common point I view from a lot of Mets fans. Just watching how overmatched he was mentally and how underdeveloped his secondary pitches were seems pretty clear to anyone who watched his career unfold that he needed more time honing his craft. It was pretty obvious.
Lucky you. One of these days I’m going to get down to Mets ST.
The long wait w/o baseball is almost over.
LGM!
Oops, not sure why the Associate Editor popped up. That was auto-fill from my full-time job!
SRT: I highly recommend it. This is a fantastic time in Florida (except for the outburst of pollen)!
LGM!
One of the goals on my ‘to do’ list when I retire in the not too distant future.
Nice article buy the Omar Minaya era ended after 2010. This is Sandy Alderdons third year. If your saying the excuses will fall on deafer ears this year you are right. When you take the job just as Omar and Phillips and the rest you own it from day one
Thanks. I know it’s Sandy Alderson’s third year, but what I meant was the hangover from Omar Minaya — as in the players that were left around from him.
I think we will soon see the benefits of the moves Alderson has made, specifically Zack Wheeler and Travis d’Arnaud.
I noticed on the Mets’ website, it said: “With a talented young core and a bevy of top prospects, the team is hoping for a dark-horse run in 2013.”
I think that sums it up. They have a chance to make some moves this season, but being contenders isn’t far away, either.
I hope there aren’t reasons to make excuses. I expect more production this season. And you’re right, you’re a New York-based team — meaning, a big market. You can’t be in rebuilding forever.
Thanks again for the kind words.
The strength of the team is still from the Omar Minaya administration even 3 years later. Sandy’s impact won’t be felt until Wheeler & d’Arnaud arrive. Alderson’s impact should have been earlier but he punted the previous 2 off seasons, basically this one too and when he did actually try to get major league ballplayers last year his bullpen and Torres were a complete flop.
it should be mainly Alderson’s team by now under normal conditions but it’s far from his team still and it’s mainly his own fault.
Excellent. Then we can blame any problems on Omar.
That is a ridiculous claim. Alderson is responsible for this team. He had the option of getting rid of any of the players he inherited when he took over this team just as Omar could have when he took over.
This pick your favorite GM is beyond old and serves no purpose other than to perpetuate an argument that goes on forever without resolution. How about we focus on the guys who actually play the game.
Only reason you claim it serves no purpose and you’re tired of hearing about it is because it’s true.
No, actually its because I’m sick of you and the usual suspects going on and on and on and on about this topic regardless of the issue being discussed. It’s irrelevant.
Omar is gone. This is Alderson’s team. If you want to hate on Alderson go for it. But enough already with the whining about poor Omar. He’s now with the Padres. Go root for them if the GM means more to you than the players on the field.
Pitchers and catchers report tomorrow. How about focusing on the issue at hand.
Hi Boomer,
Yes, this is Alderson’s team. It had been from the day he was hired. He took over from Omar and then started making his own changes.
But in truth, it is still a team created by both. Omar gave us our entire infield, three young starters, a reliever plus the many hopefuls down on the farm now being given the chance. Sandy has made trades to give us a hopeful starter and catcher. The draft selections that came under his watch are still way into their early development stages to evaluate their potential major league worth.
Of the 20 Sandy signed or traded for and received major league contracts through the end of the 2012 season, only one still remains a Met: Francisco (note I am not including mid-season pick ups that only got into a few games). The names of those 19 are (in no particular order):
Torres
Hairston
Cedeno
Young
R. Rameriz
Rauch
Carrasco
Shoppach
Byrdak
Harris
Paulino
Buchholz
Boyer
Isringhausen
Thayer
Batista
Hu
Capuano
Neither are the two rule-5 selections from 2011:
Beato
Emus
Thats 21 out of 22 players acquired between November, 2010 and early August of 2012 that are no longer with the team. If we want to include Wheeler and d’Arnaud along with Francisco that makes it 21 out of 24 players or three out of 24 that he acquired that are still on the team.
Those major players he let go of include the 2012 Cy Young Award winner, two 2012 all-star outfielders, the 2011 batting champion along with a closer who had 23 saves half way through the 2011 season. In Sandy’s defense, though all are still very productive, these players were also either getting on in years, had questionable health problems or carried an outrageous vesting option. In turn, he did obtain a highly ranked starting pitcher and catcher that indeed do show significant potential of having very good major league careers.
So far, that is the summary of what Sandy and his people have contributed beyond that left over by Omar of which he did not release or trade.
Joey D.,
I don’t get the point of listing these Alderson acquisitions. Despite all the dialogue of pro-Sandy, anti-Sandy, Omar vs Sandy, anyone with a shred of objectivity would agree that regardless of who the GM was the last two years, the brutal team finances crushed the ability to construct a good baseball team. He had no shot at retaining Reyes or Beltran because he had no money. He had to give away Krod because of the option money. Objectively, this is the first offseason to begin grading him.. He dealt Dickey when he had money to sign him. The outfield appears to stink. The closer role is uncertain. He still has some time to make moves, and we need to see how the team performs. School is still out, and all judgments are premature. I’ll wait to see wins and losses, but I do not accept the punting on 2013; he is 100% accountable if they stink this year. Not the owners, not Omar, not M. Donald Grant.
Hi Tj,
The discussion was whether this was Sandy’s team or Omar’s team. I interjected that Sandy is the one in charge but that the makeup of the team is a combination of both.
The point then was to then simply chronicle the moves that Sandy had done so far in his two years as general manager. One can certainly be judged on moves made to date – which is different than judging him for his entire tenure which one cannot do until years after one steps down for his imprint would still remain (like with Omar)
Now notice I stood away from giving an opinion and just reported on facts. One can come to his or her own conclusions regarding why 21 of 22 players he signed to a major league contract through the 2012 season are no longer on the team. I just listed them. And I think I was being quite fair to Sandy, noting that the players he got rid of though indeed still performing well were indeed also either old or over-priced and that in turn he did get two very promising top prospects which could give the Mets a lot of good seasons.
Now, the only opinion I have been making for the past year is exactly the one you just made – the player moves he made were not based on talent as they were on being inexpensive. Those might not be your words but that is still the bottom line. That not only includes who they’ve signed but the younger free agents who they didn’t pursue as well as those they’ve released.
That is why so many of us contend the concern of this front office is not with producing a competitive club as it is saving money for other purposes. As you might recall from that article the other day about Sandy, I provided details about the measures other teams down on their luck like the Mets took which turned them around and that this was not the methodology being followed by Sandy. None of those teams had a five-year vision of building from within sans Oakland. Those teams were the Giants, Reds, Nationals and Tigers (from back in 2003). That’s one out of four. And of the teams following the tactics that Sandy is – Oakland, Kansas City, San Diego and Pittsburgh, only one four has been successful as well.
Again, I presented that information for others to generate an opinion. That is exactly what you did, right? You also gave a thorough explanation as to the probable reasons why as well.
Joey D.,
Yes, good explanation, and you are right. All this Sandy/Omar stuff makes me dizzy. It’s time for some baseball.
HI TJ,
Glad you saw what I was getting at.
As you know, I do not believe Sandy is qualified to be a baseball-evaluator on a professional level as he is an executive in charge of running the operation from a business standpoint. Unfortunately, it appears he doesn’t recognize his shortcomings on that equation probably because he sincerely believes he understands the game professionaly from studying advanced statistical analysis techniques. That is why his baseball explanations are so superficial as compared to when he talks about finance in which he is then exacting and quite detailed.
So I personally think he should involve himself less in setting the tone of how baseball matters should be run and that his “vision” as far as baseball is concerned has more to do with cost savings then it is competitive intigrety as we saw from that list of players. He, of course, does not have any recourse but to get inexpensive players and raw talent with hopes that something might mix, not with the fiscal situation being what it is. Otherwise, I believe his baseball people would be taking other steps to improve the club – I hope.
The A´s never had any sort of 5-year plan to build from within. The A´s actually traded several young pieces such as RH Trevor Cahill, LH Gio Gonzalez, OF Carlos Gonzalez or RH Andrew Bailey among others along the way to get even younger (or add Matt Holliday in an ill-fated attempt to contend briefly – it´s not as if Beane´s track record hasn´t some dark spots too).
And the philosophy used by KC and the Pirates is very far away from that used by Alderson & Co. when it comes to player valuation. Just because they have done a poor job developing early draft picks or making ill-fated trades or 2nd tier free agent signings isn´t a useful indication hat the approach that Alderson has used will work or won´t.
Basically what Alderson has done is hit the “reset” button – quite possibly financially enforced. Except for David Wright, every other player from the previous “core” group of players is gone. And so is most of the expensive 2nd tier complementary talent. The current 40-man roster features a grand total of 6 players that are ages 30 or over. 5 of them (Buck, FF, Marcum, Lyon and Santana) will be free agents after the 2013 season. And the only remaining player is David Wright who turned 30 six weeks ago. The destruction part in this rebuilding is pretty much complete. Now, the question is how good the young talent, most of all Harvey, Wheeler & D´Arnaud will be, whether young players such as Tejada, Nieuwenhuis, Familia or Edgin and others will be helpful going forward and whether the farm system can produce enough trade bait and further additions to turn this into a winner that´s also sustainable. And of course, whether Alderson will spend money (and spend it well), now that the payroll is lower than at any point in time this millenium for 2014…
Hi Dr.D.,
What Oakland was doing was even worse – trading away young talent when reaching arbitration and then acquiring young talent in return. That might be described as having a five year plan that could last one or two seasons.
Now, one can say Kansas City was a failure while at the same time one cannot forget that for many a season with that young talent KC was considered a sleeper team in the AL Central. Same with Pittsburgh which was only 2-1/2 games behind Cincinnati as late as August 8. That it didn’t work out is indeed proof that building a team based mostly all on prospects either from the draft or other organizations is not a vision but a hope – and, as with KC and Pittsburgh, a failure (though the Pirates did obtain A.J. Burnett during that offseason for $16.5 million that indeed shows more needs to be added as well).
If one wants to give Sandy a pass for the past two years due to financial restraint, then one should not connect that with any “vision” as it was just biding time while his bosses tried getting their economic house back in order (which many of us doubt anyway). As so many have said, counting on some prospects is not anything orginal.
Hi Joey D.,
and these 22 players – combined – made less than 30 million $ overall during those two seasons. And the entire cost in talent that it took to land them in trades was the final season of Angel Pagan prior to free agency and fringe LHP prospect Mike Antonini. Basically, the reason most of these players had to be brought in was the lack of depth on the major league roster. Not enough young talent was ready (yet). With the Wilpons´ in financial distress and the payroll already at its limits, the options were quite limited. You get what you pay for. Which was a mix of adequate stopgaps (Capuano, Hairston, Cedeno, Byrdak, Young, Rauch or Izzy) and players without much use at all (Carrasco, Batista, R.Ramirez, Paulino, Hu and others)….
That said, I expected more Colin Cowgill, Andrew Brown or Chris Burke type acquisitions from Alderson & Co. right away. Brad Emaus, Mike Baxter and Jeremy Hefner probably were the closest during those first couple of seasons, i.e. players that have been successful in the upper minors but haven´t received an extended shot in the majors yet. Most of the players on this list were already major league veterans with a very limited ceiling based on track record.
At the same time, none of these moves will be of significant relevance to the “Alderson era”. Instead it will more be about what the returns for Dickey & Beltran end up bringing to this team longterm, whether keeping Wright and letting Reyes go was the correct call (the latter certainly not in terms of maximizing value) and whether more high-end talent than in recent history before can be procured and later developed via the draft (way too early to tell).
Hi DrD.,
Good points, but what I must add is that much more needs to be added than just Wheeler and d”Arnaud and Sandy has not addressed those issues at all.
And two years were wasted even if Sandy and his people decided the team needed to re-build itself around youth. The Mets did have the core talent that was showing it could contend with the best of them but that the other missing components were not added in the form of those inexpensive players. And even if one wants to preclude 2011 – because we got Wheeler and KRod was just too much of a contractual expense – there was still 2012 in which he shortchanged the club by the Pagan trade (trading a regular for a middle relief specialist is giving up too much and created a bigger hole for us) and again did nothing to strengthen the team as he did strenghen the franchise economically.
And again this coming season – we are even moreplayers short and nothing has been done to compliment the core that is still developing – and producing. One cannot win when a good core of players – developing or otherwise – is not supplemented with the necessary supporting players.
That is what I mean about competitive integrity. Putting aside what happened in 2011, there was a lesson to be learned from 2012 – the season Sandy told us he would have more flexibility with spending. And that didn’t mean having to go on a wild spending spree like Miami, either.
I just don´t believe the money was there at all to invest significantly into 2012. Sure, looking back, the Pagan trade looks awful. But what would the difference have been without it ? 77 wins instead of 74 ? And sure, the 10 million that were invested into FF & Rauch could have been spent more wisely, say on Jonathan Broxton and Octavio Dotel. However, again, that would have meant maybe 80 wins instead of 74.
Back at this point last off-season, the Wilpons were facing a 1 billion $ lawsuit from Picard and hadn´t done any re-financing of loans yet.
It doesn´t mean that Alderson couldn´t have had a better off-season – the 2011/2012 off-season was pretty terrible overall, for sure. However, fortunately, there is no lasting impact because of this.
I don´t think there´s any way the 2011 and 2012 Mets could have been legit contenders – unless you were willing and able to spend at least an extra 25 to 30 million $ on veteran players that were needed to improve the team longterm. Add Cliff Lee as a free agent after 2010 and sign Jonathan Papelbon & Jose Reyes after 2011, plus keep Pagan and trade Duda to the AL for a better defensive OF and sure, you could have contended in 2011 and 2012, probably. However, that´s an easy 25 million $ extra after 2010 and an easy 50 million $ extra after 2011 to add to this payroll. And I´m not even sure that it´s enough to overtake the Braves and Nats in 2012. The Wilpons weren´t able to do that.
…oh, Joey D. and very much agreed that Wheeler – D´Arnaud – Harvey won´t do it alone.
The Mets will need to make a couple of significant acquisitions from the outside eventually. Certainly by April 2014, if that´s a season where you plan to contend. However, by then, the window for the “new” core will about open, so then you can add to it.
“Omar is gone. This is Alderson’s team. ”
Something you never said at the end of the 2011 season or the 2012 season.
It was all Omar’s fault. Now that we are hopeful, ( why is beyond me ) it’s Alderson’s team.
Even if its still mainly guys from Omar’s era.
Exactly and he also responsible for the last two losing seasons including both second half collapses. It’s funny to hear all these reset buttons being hit……as if he is the only GM to take over a team after two losing seasons. So did Minaya although it was three losing seasons n a ow. As did many others only with th bunch an thir defenders all we hear is the whining and not the winning
yup….and when Omar had no depth in 2005/2006, absolutely NO ONE blamed Phillips or Duquette for leaving him with a barren farm system.
Alderson has more excuses than welfare recipients but Omar has no one to blame but himself
LOL
Just so I understand. You’re saying no one blamed Phillips or Duquette for the hand Omar was dealt? That’s what you’re saying? They didn’t take any crap from Mets fans on the way out or for some time afterwards?
And also, just so I’m clear, you continue to argue in favor of Omar has unfairly criticized, totally ignoring the poisonous culture he created in and around the organization? None of that was behind his dismissal?
You are just such a clown. I get it that you won’t stop. But man, you are such a joke.
Here, take a look at this straw man I just created. I will now poke it with a stick, and then I will beat it up a bit, then I will prop it up and do it again. Over and over. Bad straw man. Bad.
You. Are. A. CLOWN.
This!
There’s mounds of snow outside and my arms are sore from shoveling, but I’m excited that we can start getting back to real baseball again. The mere thought of that warms me up. I for one got tired of all regurgitated speculations and rants about the Mets this offseason. I’ve had to cut down my Mets reading to three sites because it was just too much. Looking forward to a fun season in 2013, I think we’re getting real close now.
Absolutely! Enough talking, and time to start pitching and hitting. I just feel a real sense of optimism from fans, and rightly so, in my opinion. Hope your arms feel better!
Hi Andrew,
I wish I could share in your enthusiasm, I really, really do. It would make this grey month of February a whole lot sunnier.
But don’t stop keeping up with that enthusiasm. The only advantage us cynics have is no longer being subjected to any tremendous let-down.
Considering all of the questions in the Mets OF and bullpen, plus, their catcher of the future is still in AAA and coming off of an injury, and we need to see if Tejada can produce for a full season…too may question marks to say “they are on the border of coming out of rebuilding and into contending” just yet. They do have some interesting stories to follow…Harvey’s first full season, Wheeler, d’arnaud. However, at the MLB level, they still have too many more questions than answers. Despite a good starting rotation, they are still looking at 90+ losses considering their division. However, 2014 and beyond, if they develop these guys properly and spend a few dollars wisely, could have some potential.
And don’t forget the Mets unload A LOT of money after this season, which is always good.
Not sure the Wilpons will spend the money on FA’s. They will need that money to lock up their talented prospects as they had done with Wright and Reyes.
As to 90 losses…I’ll take the under.
Hi Andrew,
But don’t forget that even though they unloaded a lot of money of late, they also need a whole lotta load of money to pay back what they owe.
Speaking of hope: Tony Campana was just released by the Cubs to make room for Scott Hairston on the 40 man roster. Campana’s stats: 347 ABs, 54 sb, 44 r, .260 avg, .308 obp.
Bourn for $14MM and 40-45 sb, or Campana for a song and mabe 75-80 sb?
Another lefty bat though.
You’re right. But, it was Bourn or Campana. Both are lefties. Campana is 26 and has zero almost negative power, but, he can fly and can be an asset for five or six years in center. I just would rather spend $14MM on a power hitter like Jay Bruce or that kind of guy who generates about 190 runs (runs+ rbi), not a guy that generates about 140, at best.
grab him. He sounds almost exactly like Ben Revere, and he cost the phils a ML SP, and a top prospect pitcher.
so is Bourn.
someone (I think here) brought up Tony a few days ago. frankly, if he can play top flight D, go for it and save the big contract for a RF.
The Sp and Infield look solid. bullpen is a coin toss everything went wrong there last year, maybe this time we get some breaks. Nobody likes the OF the way it is now. thats the main weakness. Catching will be much better thats a given. Nobody is talking about it but I think the key is Santana. If he can pitch like he did the first half of last year and not break down then you have a legit ace to solidify the rotation and be the leader of the staff, There is potential there and hopefully if they are in it at midseason the front office will add some help this time.
Ray,
Yes, the team has many question marks but Santana is the biggest key. If we see the Johan of 2012 first half, this team can compete in 2013. That’s a pretty good starting 5 with Wheeler and Mejia in the wings. I want Bourn on a reasonable 3 year and Brian Wilson added, and let’s play ball.
Andrew,
While I appreciate your enthusiasm the reality is Sandy was not brought in to make the team better but to get the finances in order. And he has doen a terrific job of that – not re-signing the best shortstop in Mets history who just happened to win the batting title, trading a Cy Young winner for an oft injured minor league catcher who has yet to play an inning of ML baseball and on and on…
Sure we got some prospects out of the team bloodletting – and why not – anytime you give up quality major league players who will cost you money you will always replace them with good prospects.
The problem is that you are replacing guys who are currently doing it – some at or near the top of their game (Dickey, Reyes, Beltran) – with guys who might do it at some point.
We have no outfield to speak of and the bullpen was really bad last year and is arguably worse now.
Sandy is now going into his third year in charge of the team and the team is much worse now than what he inherited.
Sure, everyone starts with a 0 – 0 record but I fail to understand how that can be a positive thing with a team in such shambles.
I’d like to see the argument that the bullpen is worse now.
Agee,
Those players were good enough for 4 4th place finishes in a row. Beltran and Dickey are gone and they are great players but they had thier time. Now we have a new foundation for the future and if you like rooting for a team of veterans with no future the yanks are there for ya.
HI Ray,
Lets be fair. If one wants to say that with Dickey and Beltran we were good enough for two fourth place finishes in a row, the same must be said about the 22 players acquired by Sandy during that same period.
And what good is a foundation for the future when it is left to flounder all by itself?
Hi Joey,
The point is this team was going nowhere. Beltran is 37 and Dickey is 38. It was time to build a new foundation and that is being done. Adding on to what we had was what Omar tried to do. It didnt work so now we start anew. Would you rather be in the Yankees position right now or the Mets? I would take the mets. strange as that is to say
Hi Ray,
Let’s put the Yankees aside because there is always a middle ground, not either/or.
As I said, with the players Sandy himself added, that also resulted in two fourth place finishes in a row. And again, I will follow that up with by asking what good is a foundation for the future when it is left to flounder all by itself?
No, it doesn’t have to be Omar’s way or that of the Yankees. But not this way, either. How San Francisco, Washington, Cincinnati and Detroit went about it would be fine with me.
Were any of those teams facing a financial problem so large it forced the owner to take an emergency loan from MLB to meet payroll and nearly forced them to sell the team? No? Then why compare situations that aren’t the same? No two teams will approach things in an identical manner because they aren’t in identical positions. Not with current players, contracts, markets, financial conditions, etc., etc., etc..
It amazes me that no matter how many times the financial situation the Mets were in and are only now just beginning to see a path to break is brought up some people just refuse to admit that it had a profound impact on the actions of this particular FO at this time. It makes absolutely no sense to say that Alderson is intentionally trying to tank the team because that would lead to bigger loses and ultimately would force the Wilpons to sell.
BTW, this is an interesting tidbit.
>>AdamRubinESPN Adam Rubin
Jayson Stark surveyed MLB executives, who labeled the Mets signing of Shaun Marcum the 3rd-best 1-year deal in MLB this offseason.
3rd best one year deal. Couple this with the d’Arnaud/Dickey trade which was universally hailed by baseball execs as a huge win for Alderson and the case for Alderson trying to kill this team makes increasingly less sense.
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2013/01/alderson-says-he-is-responsible-for-lack-of-spending-not-ownership.html
So whats your excuse now?
Metsie, i am sure he’ll find one. they always do. SMH
You were correct Alex….Any port in a storm you know….
You do understand he’s talking about right now and not the past couple years, right? You do understand that it is also the job of the GM to take the heat from the owner, right? Or has every other GM since baseball began, including Omar, made it a habit of throwing their owner under the bus and I somehow missed it.
If you want to pretend the Mets are now and have been ever since the Madoff scam a financially stable entity in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary then have at it. Just don’t expect anyone who can read to take you seriously.
Yes RIGHT NOW! The 2013 season is being wasted not because of Madoff, Not because of Wilpon…
Outfield? What Outfield?
DIRECT QUOTE!
Did he fix it?
If he wins fewer than 79 games then three years and all he will have done is make this team worse!
And you will have no excuse for it because the money isn’t a problem according to Sandy.
No need to shout. Try and make your point without shouting.
And no, I really don’t care what the GM says. Not this one or any other GM. I’ve read countless times what his budget is for this year and so have you. Why you pretend you haven’t seen these numbers is a mystery.
For about the 100th time, ML baseball is an entertainment industry as much as it is a sport. The GM gets paid not just to sign players but to fill seats. His job is always to put a positive spin on things. And anyone who has been paying the slightest attention to the Mets the last couple years knows that money has been issue number 1. Why do you think he is asked these questions in the first place?
And no, no GM who wants to have his job the next day is dumb enough to throw his owner under the bus and blame spending issues on him. Alderson has a budget given to him by the owners and he is trying to spend it responsibly to get the best bang for his limited buck. Something this franchise sorely needs to learn.
There were few quality OFers available this year and all of them were overpriced. They may still get Bourn, I’m somewhat ambivalent about it but if they get him at the right price, which is what good GMs do, they actually negotiate instead of paying whatever the player demands, I will be ok with a 3 year deal.
If not, then we will get a chance to see a little bit more of guys like Kirk who was off to a possible Rookie of the Year start last year before fading and some of the other new faces from within the organization and from the outside.
If you want to waste your season raging against the GM have at it. I’d rather watch the team play.
Well one thing you said is worth mentioning….
“ML baseball is an entertainment industry as much as it is a sport”
Yes it is and the Entertainment industry is STAR DRIVEN!
We traded away one of our BIGGEST STARS for an upgrade of Thole and a maybe 4 years from now.
Less Stars=Less attendance than the year we lost 23 Million with the same payroll which translates to losses of 23+ Million next year at which point you kick the can down the road to 2015 for TRYING Blame Madoff yet another year, Say Sandy needs more time and go back to Appluading when we sell the next star of the season off for something years down the road that will make attendance decline even further and we play this game all over again until Sandy gets fired and someone else realizes what you said is TRUE, that baseball is an entertainment business and requires you to keep whatever star power you find in order to keep the seats filled so you can eventually go on this buying streak you all say is coming but keeps getting put off year after year!
Hi Boomer,
You are forgetting, however, that the new breed of general managers are indeed hired to run the baseball time like a business and the bottom line of business is to generate profits. Many make money without trying to produce competitive teams on the field and that has been documented.
In fact, attached is an article about the five teams in which their official financial statements were released so there can be no dispute about the validity of the figures. Note that even though they turned a profit and received revenue sharing at the same time, the money was pocketed and not used to re-invest into the team. Loria’s excuse with the Marlins was that the money was needed for the new ball park which we all know is “fishy” considering the loans he got and the tax payer money that was used.
This is not like it was decades ago when teams depended upon building up winners to make profits (between 1953 and 1971 eight losing teams had to move because they were losing money – St. Louis Browns, Philadelphia Athletics, Kansas City Athletics, Boston Braves, old Washington Senators, new Washington Senators, New York Giants (Brooklyn not included in this group) and Seattle Mariners. In the forty years since that time only only franchise has uplifted it’s roots – the Montreal Expos. Texas and Los Angeles that went bankrupt were gobbled up quickly by new owners.
It was not a bilion dollar industry like today. In 1964 CBS purchased the New York Yankees for $11.2 Million. In today’s world that comes up to $80 million. Any baseball team you know that can be purchased for that price today?
So unfortunately, it is not just a case of “The GM gets paid not just to sign players but to fill seats.” It’s the GM’s job to make money for the owners and that has been done with empty seats as well.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5492093
Hi Boomer,
What you said is exactly the point we on the other side of the fence have been making. Using your own words: “it had a profound impact on the actions of this particular FO at this time.
We say it because for two years many profess Sandy’s moves were made based on what he felt was best to improve the team and that was not the case. He admitted in his interview with Mike Francesa last September that one could not expect to win with “inexpensive” players which could only produce “50%”. That in itself is an admission that he could not focus on fielding a winnng team but to stop spending.
Those actions – and the results that he expected – guaranteed “to tank the team”.
But this was done because “it would lead to bigger loses and ultimately would force the Wilpons to sell”. Rather that with all the financial cutbacks in operations made throughout the organization, it was done to lead to bigger savings and ultimately would not force the Wilpons to sell.
“Then why compare situations that aren’t the same?”. To prove the point just elaborated on. If one does not want to blame Sandy for this, you will find no problem with me. But if one wants to put his actions into the context of producing a competitive team, absolutely not – if anything, based on his own words. Because he hasn’t done this the past two years, why should we believe he will do it now and in the years ahead?
With so much of the official financial figures available regarding the debt (along with the speculated ones), the acknowledged financial losses, and the lack of any action taken since the civil suit settlement a year ago (which so many said procluded the Mets from making moves) other than continuing to reduce payroll and not taking steps to compliment the youth movement he designed there is no evidence either in figures or actions to believe the Mets have turned the corner regarding the financial situation.
Joey
I think a lot of things get twisted on blogs with the written word that probably wouldn’t in a verbal conversation. In the time I have been reading this blog I have never seen one person or one comment claiming that the moves Alderson were making would result in a better team immediately. Not one. If you can show some to me great but otherwise its just a strawman argument that too many here make with this nonsense about Sandy lovers or the Firm.
How could the moves Alderson made make the Mets better immediately? How could anyone say trading Beltran for a minor league pitcher would make the Mets a better team immediately? Same with Dickey? Letting Reyes walk? Alderson has said repeatedly that his vision is not to build a team that booms and busts as we have experienced over the years but one that is built to be competitive every single year. You do this by building a team with a strong young core focused around starting pitching. These are the pieces he has been adding.
I just don’t get the unfocused anger of some people who keep trying to make it appear that this is a black and white issue when its anything but. The Mets had to be torn down to acquire the pieces necessary to build with young talent. Now you may not agree with building with young talent for a team that has a solid core year in and year out and thats fine. But if you are in win now mode then you have to show how this team was going to accomplish that with the financial constraints that were placed on it.
Pretend you are Alderson and you inherited this team when he did including all the players and the contracts and show me how you cut the payroll to under $100 million from the $150 million it was when he took over and win now.
Joey
I couldn’t respond to the other comment, site wouldn’t let me so I’ll put this here.
I’m sorry but if you think that owners expecting their GMs to make the teams money or that some owners care more about money than they do players or winning is a new thing I got news for you, it ain’t ( See the Curse of the Bambino vs No No Nanette).
As I said earlier, ML baseball is as much a sports entertainment business as it is a sport. Same for every major league team. This has been true as long as there has been professional sports but it took on a whole different dimension with the advent of TV money.
It would be kind of naive to think Alderson doesn’t understand this as he has been in the game for decades including a stint in the Commissioners office. I’m sure he would love to have a $200 million budget like the GM of the Angels but he doesn’t. He doesn’t because the team can’t afford it. They can afford slightly less than half that.
Which brings me back to my original question, how would you have gone about taking the team Alderson inherited, a cut in salary from $150 to less than $100 million and build a team to win now?
Frankly, if anyone can answer that question they should send their resume to the Wilpons tout suite because I have yet to see anyone solve that particular riddle.
Hi Boomer,
Sorry, but I just provided you proof of teams making profits without spending much on roster moves – and in fact, not using the money from revenue sharing to do so, either.
I have said all the time that Alderson was here to bail out the Wilpons so it didn’t matter who was the GM – no moves were going to be made.
And most important – Sandy never said anything like his goal was not to improve the Mets immediately? He said he might not have all the financial resources in 2011 but that was it:
“So, the problem is not that we don’t have resources, the problem is that we have limited additional resources to spend this year. So, what you see today or what you’ve seen over the last two weeks shouldn’t necessarily be representative of what you see over the next two or three years.”
His entire quote at that December, 2010 blogger conference call:
” I wasn’t hired to apply a Moneyball approach to the New York Mets. I would not have accepted the position were I required to run the Mets on a shoestring budget. On the other hand, I did come in with my eyes wide open. I did recognize that there would be some payroll restrictions this year, keeping in mind that when everything’s said and done our payroll will probably be somewhere between 130 and 140 million dollars. We’ll probably be in the top four or five in all of baseball. So, the problem is not that we don’t have resources, the problem is that we have limited additional resources to spend this year. So, what you see today or what you’ve seen over the last two weeks shouldn’t necessarily be representative of what you see over the next two or three years. But we do have to get through a somewhat difficult period from a standpoint of our payroll because we already have most of it committed.”
- Sorry Boomer, but there goes the theory that he wasn’t promising anything for a while and that we were going to be restricted with money. From Sandy himself.
Joey-
I see. So nothing at all has changed with the Wilpons’ finances since December of 2010. No billion dollar lawsuit. No deteriorating of their finances. Not a thing.
What he promised is that we would have to go through a tough period of 2 to 3 years. From your own article:
>>So, what you see today or what you’ve seen over the last two weeks shouldn’t necessarily be representative of what you see over the next two or three years. But we do have to get through a somewhat difficult period from a standpoint of our payroll because we already have most of it committed.”
It’s now been 2 years and 2 month since December of 2011. Its pretty weak sauce to have people come on here day after day after day after day and try to make everything about the failure of Alderson when by the quote even you published the Mets are still in their tough times.
In any case, I’m happy with the general direction of the team. I don’t like all of Alderson’s moves but I don’t like all of anyone’s moves. But for the first time in a long time we seem to have an adult in the GM’s chair who is interested in building a winning, sustainable franchise. I’ll take it for now.
Joey D.,
A few points –
1. It is apparent to me, based on his comments and what transpired from 2010-2012, that Alderson did not know the actual depth of the financial issues reagrding the Mets. Yes, they wsere shakey, but subsequent to his hiring was the Picard lawsuit for $1 billion, when prior estimates had it projected to $300 million. That was a game changer, and combined with the bad performance on the field while led to big operating losses, the Wilpon ownership was threated by lack of cash flow. They went into survival mode, slashed $50 mil off payroll, refused to pursue Reyes, and the rest is history. I believe many in the fan base see this as Alderson’s plan, but it weas the owners plan. Alderson himself stated in your quote that he would not have taken the job at his age to nickel and dime Oakland style. He wanted one last shot at producing a champion, and he felt he could do that with a $130 to $140 mil payroll. I agree with his though process on that, but as they say the best laid plans often go astray.
2. At the end of 2012, the Wilpons were able to refinance the SNY debt. That deal closed just before the new new, and dramatically changed the financial landscape of the team. Now they have access to cash, and they all they need to do to stop the losses is field a winning team. Unfortunately, that business deal came in the middle of the hot stove league, so the money at Alderson’s disposal in January was more than was at his disposal prior. Hence, his comments in January about he controlling the purse strings.
3. Your link to the article about teams turning profits despite putting fannies in the seats is a little bit of apples to oranges. No denying their profitablility, and their methods of turning a proft, but the Mets are a little different. The Wilpons had Citifield build without public money, but to do so they had to arrange financing for the entire cost. This created huge debt service, tied to revenues at the stadium. With the NY cost of construction, much higher than in places like Florida and San Diego, that did so with public money, they need ballpark revenues to cover expenses and debt. The overhead is far too big to cover with revenue sharing. They need to have a winning team to drawn fans at premium prices, and the failure to assemble a winning team goes directly to the bottom line. Now Alderson has sum bucks, even for 2013, but this late in the offeseason the pickings are slim. Now, I am not letting him off the hook, he get paid big bucks to find solutions when he has some funding, even if it is late in the game for 2013. He needs to find solutions, turn the tide, and get this team competitive right now to set the franchise on the right course.
Hi Boomer,
I enjoy your enthusiasm but that does not excuse taking a sentence out of context.
You say: “What he promised is that we would have to go through a tough period of 2 to 3 years. ”
What he said was: ” So, what you see today or what you’ve seen over the last two weeks shouldn’t necessarily be representative of what you see over the next two or three years.”
Nowhere did he imply a tough period of two to three years ahead as you profess he did. He was specifically referring to limited payroll spending pertaining to 2011 – as stated on the two sentences precluding your quote which was not referred to:
“So, the problem is not that we don’t have resources, the problem is that we have limited additional resources to spend this year. So, what you see today or what you’ve seen over the last two weeks shouldn’t necessarily be representative of what you see over the next two or three years.”
The rest of the quote – which I posted in it’s entirety so to keep it in it’s full context – opened with him saying he would not have accepted the job if he was hired to operate on a “shoe string budget”. That was also said two months into the job, enough time to know the full extent of the financial situation – if he was unaware of it beforehand.
Again, Boomer, I know you want to see the glass half-full but at the same time please know it is quite upsetting when the exact words said by the general manager are so twisted out of context that it takes away from an otherwise enjoyable conversation. Like the issue I raised before about Sandy’s credibility (which is shown by the contradiction in statements he had since made after the above in that blogger conference call) doing so only creates doubts about the validity of what else might be being referred to down the road.
Joey-
Read TJ’s post. He said it more eloquently.
Oh and CBS is reporting that Bourn is going to sign with the Indians.
Hi T,
There is no trail to show that Sandy was unaware of how bad the situation really was. And what I quoted came two months into the job. He continued saying that when spring training opened – which was four months into the job. If he was truly unaware at the time – which is speculation and not fact (remember in the past I put forward many points to speculate how much aware he could have indeed been aware of what he was getting into) – then what we have is one who decided to take the hits for his employees and in doing so then lost all credibility with what he says with the public.
That blogger conference from December, 2011 he was quite explicit about the Mets financial situation and that it wasn’t so much a matter of resources as it was being tied down by certain obligations not allowing him as much flexibility which he saw less of a problem the next year and the year after that.
And he said that with the possibility of that billion dollar lawsuit hanging over the Wilpons head.
So it is valid to question how much better the financial situation is now – even taking into account the re-financing of those loans – when in 2010 he gave such an upbeat picture on the financial status and since then the Mets have lost at least $70 million more in revenue and a year later needed that extra $40 million bridge loan so not to default on their end of the month payments.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111212&content_id=26153368&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb
The selling of the minority shares went to paying off those two loans.
Hi Boomer,
I just did as you were writing back!
Bourn about to sign with Cleveland? Hope we get some inside information on just how serious the Met offer was – and if it was indeed just the draft pick that stopped them from going further.
Boomer I applaud your efforts but I’ll tell you from experience when debating these guys that it’s hard to rationalize with people that are out of touch with reality. They see and hear only what they want and force themselves to believe things that are so far from reality it’s not worth the effort. You’d have better luck trying to convince a doorknob.
Well Fonzie,
For one is making such statement, why don’t you address the specific questions and points that I just raised with actually counterpoints instead of sidestepping the issues.
Those points being what Sandy said in December of 2010::
1) Does the following imply either 1) a tough period of two to three years ahead or 2) specifically referring to limited payroll spending pertaining to 2011?
“So, the problem is not that we don’t have resources, the problem is that we have limited additional resources to spend this year. So, what you see today or what you’ve seen over the last two weeks shouldn’t necessarily be representative of what you see over the next two or three years.”
2) Does this imply that the situation he was facing that day was going to force him to make him operate on a small, very tight budget?
” I wasn’t hired to apply a Moneyball approach to the New York Mets. I would not have accepted the position were I required to run the Mets on a shoestring budget.
3) Does this then infer that he had no money or recognized that he would not have the flexibility he wanted in order to spend what he felt was proper?
On the other hand, I did come in with my eyes wide open. I did recognize that there would be some payroll restrictions this year, keeping in mind that when everything’s said and done our payroll will probably be somewhere between 130 and 140 million dollars. We’ll probably be in the top four or five in all of baseball.
3) Does this infer that he did not have the resources but rather that he was going to be limited in what he could do regarding the use of additional resources in 2011 due to specific payroll obligations THIS YEAR that he would not be subjected to in 2012 and 2013?
“So, the problem is not that we don’t have resources, the problem is that we have limited additional resources to spend this year. So, what you see today or what you’ve seen over the last two weeks shouldn’t necessarily be representative of what you see over the next two or three years. But we do have to get through a somewhat difficult period from a standpoint of our payroll because we already have most of it committed.”
4) Now for your opinion – was Sandy telling the truth during that conference call with bloggers in late 2010 or was he lying?
A) If he was telling the truth, then did the Mets financial woes come under his command?
B) If he was telling the truth, then that also means he didn’t anticipate about additional suits being filed against the Wilpons interfering with his operations after that first suit was reported on July 30, 2010 – three months prior to his taking on the role of general manager
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/07/30/us-madoff-wilpon-idUSTRE66T56U20100730
5) Was it not true that official records – not inuendo – showed that five teams with small attendance figures and in some being in small markets still made profits and also did not use the money obtained through revenue sharing to re- invest in the team roster?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5492093
6) And when Sandy Alderson was quoted as saying he was only an observer and could not offer an opinion about what was wrong with Ike Davis is it not true that Rusty Staub was then quoted as saying he had no idea what was wrong with Ike Davis and could not offer an opinion either while what he said was completely the opposite and in such detail that he could not have been misconstrued? And that all he said was that he did not know what the Mets thought was wrong with their player?
Now based on what the information I provided and the points I raised, how does that show one is not in touch with reality, wants to see and hear only what one wants to and forces himself to believe things that are so far from reality it’s not worth the effort.
And in turn, who would be harder to convince than a doorknob when to make a point one did not use second hand information or make up something that wasn’t true but rather
1) used exact quotes – and the entire text and not just a few sentences – to put in perspective what was being said to the public and then
2) to prove that general managers have also been hired not to build competitive ball clubs but make money for the owners by using leaked, official financial figures from other teams to prove that was an actual reality.
If one wants to say another is coming to an incorrect conclusion based on other factual evidence, that is fine. Am waiting for that first hand evidence – not an article referring to third hand information and unsubstantiated inference – however, to prove that what was presented was just fabrication or twisted to make something appear different that it was.
Better to go nowhere than backwards
Ray and vigouge -
Hey guys…
I see your points but have to disagree.
The bullpen, as it stands right now, has no chance to be great, little potential to be good and will probably suck. In my opinion, it is even worse than last year’s bullpen.
As far as finishing fourth four years in a row – when did the Madoff scandal hit Fred Wilpon? If you say December 2008 – you win the Kewpie doll. Oh, and that happens to be four years ago – what a coincidence. My point is that all decisions since the Madoff scandal have been geared toward preventing Fred from having to sell – not improving the club.
Not re-signing Reyes was a result of Fred wanting to hold on to the club – it was a decision that will cost the Mets the ability to compete this year and next. We really have no standout position players in the minors who are major league ready right now. Yes, we have better pitching prospects but that is a result of getting rid of Beltran’s contract and trading Dickey. How many homers and rbi did Beltran hit last year? How many wins did Dickey get? Is the club more competitive with or without Dickey, Beltran and Reyes for this season?
Just dealing with common sense here guys.
Sandy is probably doing the best he can – but the team has gotten worse for the two seasons he’s been with the club and will be worse yet this year. I also believe that he’s being disingenuous to the fans but telling us repeatedly that he’s building for the future. His job is to financially stabilize the club – not to build for the future. Of course you will get good prospects if you trade great major leaguers.
Nice to be able to read a locals view point on the Mets. I have learned over the last 20 years not to expect much from the Mets, which results in little disappointment come the end of the summer when the playoffs are out of the question. ( Hope for the best, expect the worse. )However, I am and always will be a Mets fan. Nothing beats sitting out on the berm on a sunny March afternoon watching the Mets, which I plan to do a number of times this Spring. May even have to take a day off from school to do it . Looking forward to reading your articles throughout the year.
This is my favorite time of the year where I unload all my Mets baggage and start fresh. Some of the people commenting here should give it a try, it’s very liberating. Nice post Andrew, by the way.